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Swami Vivekananda compares Jesus to Buddha saying they both found and achieved God. Buddha by Meditation and Jesus by Christ. He criticises christians for a variety of reasons (not similar to that of Gandhi), he too believes the true teachings of Christ have become polluted today. I think it should be added-- 71.163.67.245 15:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
You know this is amazing to me. THere is alot of evidence, documentaion, and writing about Jesus traveling to India. And there is no mention of anything like that here. I mean weather u believe it or not is one thing. But why is there no mention of this anywhere here? 71.107.54.199 01:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that Nicolas Notovitch was exposed as a fraud. He was called a fraud. But his claim was that he was shown a scroll that now is only shown to high adepts and therefore not in the perview of scholars. It would be difficult to prove that such a scroll does not exist. However I think you're right if you'd say that the vast majority of scholars believe such a scroll does not exist, or if it does that it does not say exactly what he is claiming it said. Wjhonson 15:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I've added a couple of (inconspicuous) sentences regarding the location of the tomb of Yuz Asaf, believed to be Jesus by a few Muslims and also that this man was seen as a holy man by some Hindus and Buddhists. I believe my comments to be relevant, however, if they don't fit in, please feel free to remove them. The alternative theories to what might have happened to jesus should get a mention. See tomb of Jesus and links from it for more information.
My interest in this was that I saw a book about 'Jesus in India' (or Tibet) while I was in Dharam Sala and I'm now kicking myself for not buying it. User:Beefy_SAFC 21.55, 31st August 2006 (UTC)
There is no mention in this article of the Bhavishya Maha Purana, in which it is said that Shalivahana, the Indo-Scythian king met Jesus and spoke to him in Kashmir. If you go to the tombofjesus.com website, you will see records of Jesus referring to himself as Ishaputra (son of God) and Kumarigarbhasambhavam (which I guess means 'of virgin birth'). He also refers to himself as 'Isa-masi'. I don't know how accurate this document is, but at least there should be some discussion of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.32.94 ( talk • contribs)
Anittas ( talk · contribs) points out that where this article currently reads "He is commonly referred to as Jesus Christ, where 'Christ' is a Greek-derived title meaning 'Anointed One' which corresponds to the Hebrew-derived 'Messiah'," it should probably say "He is commonly referred to as Jesus Christ, where 'Jesus' is the Hellenized name of 'Joshua' and 'Christ' is a Greek-derived title meaning 'Anointed One,' which corresponds to the Hebrew-derived 'Messiah.' The name 'Joshua' means 'Jehovah saves,' and he was sometimes called Joshua bar-Joseph, where the prefix bar means 'son of,' in Aramaic." I basically concur, except that instead of "the Hellenized name" I would say "a Hellenized form". Anittas's suggestions on such things are usually good; I'm leaving this on the talk page rather than editing, because I'm sure this is a continually controversial article, it's not one I watch, people may have been over this territory before, etc. I leave it to someone working on this article to actually make the edit. - Jmabel | Talk 17:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I am requesting a new vote to decide, at least for a while, which of these notations to use in this article. I think this is the time to make such a decision because Wikipedia has finally become "mainstream" and a new vote can more accurately gauge the actual feelings of the public, rather than hardcore wikipedians. I honestly believe that Wikipedia is a far greater resource than Britannica, Encarta, etc; and all that is holding it back from perfection are things like this, where nobody can reach an agreement and compromises have to be made, at the sake of the usefulness and elegance of the entry on a whole. If problems like these were solved, Wikipedia could improve itself 10 times over. These teachers, these librarians, who lambast our project do so because they think that millions of people, especially young people, will never be able to work together and agree on anything. They are wrong. I think that this generation won't be remembered for popularizing ipods or blogs or anything technological. I think we will be revered as the generation that was closer to each other than any other, not in the fact that we know everyone on our street or can name everyone in our grade, but that we can collaborate with each other and actually do things together with others that we will never even see or live in the same country with. Like a realization that we are better together, instead of breaking off from everyone else and declaring your dissatisfaction with everyone else like the baby boomers, or generation x, we will work together to better satisfy every one of us as individuals. And now that I have brought to a close my lamentations and hope for the future, you may stop reading and respond. -- Spotswood Dudley 01:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Voting ends 0600 UTC on 3 September 2006 (Voting now ended).
The voting might have ended but the issue won't go away. Any bets as to how long before the article is reverted to the "dual format"? Why not just remove AD and leave BC - wouldn't that satisfy most people? Arcturus 12:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Late Votes:
Late votes (for future reference):
What makes this page so special as compared to every other page on Wikipedia where it has been accepted that use of one or the other is fine? Peyna 22:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Payna, why don´t you take a minute to read my comment to Roy Brumbick? Also, Wikipedians ideally form a community. That means that we are cablable of making ad hoc decisions on a case by case basis, while also trying to be consistent to certain principles. From apurely legalistic point of view this may seem paradoxical, but this is precisely the difference between a community and a juridical regime. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
You know what I find to be the silliest part of this whole waste of time? There are only 3 places in the article that require an era notation. Seeing BC/BCE 3 times is superior to edit wars and a halt of progressive discussions on talk. I mean, Aiden and myself (with a little help from other editors) worked on point 1 of the to do list. And I proposed moving on to point 2 and how many people responded? On the other hand, how many people are willing to respond to a poll that only effect 3 small abbreviations in the whole article?-- Andrew c 00:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Look folks, right now 12 people want to stick with BC/AD and 50% more want something else. I think this is enough to show that the working consensus that has been fairly stable for some time deserves to be maintained. Let´s keep things as they are, and instead of wasting our energy on voting and arguing over a dead horse, lets devote ourselves to actually improving articles. There is still the issue of how best to merge or reorganize the articles focusing on the historicity of Jesus and the historical Jesus. And then there is the question of different Christian interpretations (by clergy and or theologians) of the NT, and whether the article on Christology deserves further work. Why not turn out energies to these topics? Slrubenstein | Talk 05:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
What just happened, Atomaton's vote seems to of somehow scrambled up the history, and now several votes were deleted? Homestarmy 02:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Just happened to pass by this page and - blow me! the debate continues; astonishing! The solution is staring you all in the face but you just won't have it, will you? Here it is: Don't use AD or CE. Simply state the year with a link (e.g. 1). Years from AD 1 onwards speak for themselves. If there's a view that AD is somehow POV (can't see it myself), then don't use it - and don't use CE either. When it comes to BC vs BCE, BC does not proclaim anything. It merely sets a marker for an event that just about everyone acknowledges took place, and on which our calendar is based - so what's the problem with it? Use it! If you don't like it, fell free to use the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or any other calendar, but if you use the Gregorian calendar at least accept what it's based on. In summary: don't use AD, CE or BCE. Use BC for years prior to AD 1. Arcturus 13:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I was under the impression that the standard was -- if an article uses BC/AD in the original draft or is about Christianity, use BC/AD. Well, this article is about Christ, and original draft used BC/AD. To use such an awkward dual notation on a page about Jesus strikes me as patently absurd. -- Ben Applegate 17:34, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 65 | ← | Archive 70 | Archive 71 | Archive 72 | Archive 73 | Archive 74 | Archive 75 |
Swami Vivekananda compares Jesus to Buddha saying they both found and achieved God. Buddha by Meditation and Jesus by Christ. He criticises christians for a variety of reasons (not similar to that of Gandhi), he too believes the true teachings of Christ have become polluted today. I think it should be added-- 71.163.67.245 15:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
You know this is amazing to me. THere is alot of evidence, documentaion, and writing about Jesus traveling to India. And there is no mention of anything like that here. I mean weather u believe it or not is one thing. But why is there no mention of this anywhere here? 71.107.54.199 01:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that Nicolas Notovitch was exposed as a fraud. He was called a fraud. But his claim was that he was shown a scroll that now is only shown to high adepts and therefore not in the perview of scholars. It would be difficult to prove that such a scroll does not exist. However I think you're right if you'd say that the vast majority of scholars believe such a scroll does not exist, or if it does that it does not say exactly what he is claiming it said. Wjhonson 15:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I've added a couple of (inconspicuous) sentences regarding the location of the tomb of Yuz Asaf, believed to be Jesus by a few Muslims and also that this man was seen as a holy man by some Hindus and Buddhists. I believe my comments to be relevant, however, if they don't fit in, please feel free to remove them. The alternative theories to what might have happened to jesus should get a mention. See tomb of Jesus and links from it for more information.
My interest in this was that I saw a book about 'Jesus in India' (or Tibet) while I was in Dharam Sala and I'm now kicking myself for not buying it. User:Beefy_SAFC 21.55, 31st August 2006 (UTC)
There is no mention in this article of the Bhavishya Maha Purana, in which it is said that Shalivahana, the Indo-Scythian king met Jesus and spoke to him in Kashmir. If you go to the tombofjesus.com website, you will see records of Jesus referring to himself as Ishaputra (son of God) and Kumarigarbhasambhavam (which I guess means 'of virgin birth'). He also refers to himself as 'Isa-masi'. I don't know how accurate this document is, but at least there should be some discussion of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.32.94 ( talk • contribs)
Anittas ( talk · contribs) points out that where this article currently reads "He is commonly referred to as Jesus Christ, where 'Christ' is a Greek-derived title meaning 'Anointed One' which corresponds to the Hebrew-derived 'Messiah'," it should probably say "He is commonly referred to as Jesus Christ, where 'Jesus' is the Hellenized name of 'Joshua' and 'Christ' is a Greek-derived title meaning 'Anointed One,' which corresponds to the Hebrew-derived 'Messiah.' The name 'Joshua' means 'Jehovah saves,' and he was sometimes called Joshua bar-Joseph, where the prefix bar means 'son of,' in Aramaic." I basically concur, except that instead of "the Hellenized name" I would say "a Hellenized form". Anittas's suggestions on such things are usually good; I'm leaving this on the talk page rather than editing, because I'm sure this is a continually controversial article, it's not one I watch, people may have been over this territory before, etc. I leave it to someone working on this article to actually make the edit. - Jmabel | Talk 17:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I am requesting a new vote to decide, at least for a while, which of these notations to use in this article. I think this is the time to make such a decision because Wikipedia has finally become "mainstream" and a new vote can more accurately gauge the actual feelings of the public, rather than hardcore wikipedians. I honestly believe that Wikipedia is a far greater resource than Britannica, Encarta, etc; and all that is holding it back from perfection are things like this, where nobody can reach an agreement and compromises have to be made, at the sake of the usefulness and elegance of the entry on a whole. If problems like these were solved, Wikipedia could improve itself 10 times over. These teachers, these librarians, who lambast our project do so because they think that millions of people, especially young people, will never be able to work together and agree on anything. They are wrong. I think that this generation won't be remembered for popularizing ipods or blogs or anything technological. I think we will be revered as the generation that was closer to each other than any other, not in the fact that we know everyone on our street or can name everyone in our grade, but that we can collaborate with each other and actually do things together with others that we will never even see or live in the same country with. Like a realization that we are better together, instead of breaking off from everyone else and declaring your dissatisfaction with everyone else like the baby boomers, or generation x, we will work together to better satisfy every one of us as individuals. And now that I have brought to a close my lamentations and hope for the future, you may stop reading and respond. -- Spotswood Dudley 01:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Voting ends 0600 UTC on 3 September 2006 (Voting now ended).
The voting might have ended but the issue won't go away. Any bets as to how long before the article is reverted to the "dual format"? Why not just remove AD and leave BC - wouldn't that satisfy most people? Arcturus 12:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Late Votes:
Late votes (for future reference):
What makes this page so special as compared to every other page on Wikipedia where it has been accepted that use of one or the other is fine? Peyna 22:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Payna, why don´t you take a minute to read my comment to Roy Brumbick? Also, Wikipedians ideally form a community. That means that we are cablable of making ad hoc decisions on a case by case basis, while also trying to be consistent to certain principles. From apurely legalistic point of view this may seem paradoxical, but this is precisely the difference between a community and a juridical regime. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
You know what I find to be the silliest part of this whole waste of time? There are only 3 places in the article that require an era notation. Seeing BC/BCE 3 times is superior to edit wars and a halt of progressive discussions on talk. I mean, Aiden and myself (with a little help from other editors) worked on point 1 of the to do list. And I proposed moving on to point 2 and how many people responded? On the other hand, how many people are willing to respond to a poll that only effect 3 small abbreviations in the whole article?-- Andrew c 00:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Look folks, right now 12 people want to stick with BC/AD and 50% more want something else. I think this is enough to show that the working consensus that has been fairly stable for some time deserves to be maintained. Let´s keep things as they are, and instead of wasting our energy on voting and arguing over a dead horse, lets devote ourselves to actually improving articles. There is still the issue of how best to merge or reorganize the articles focusing on the historicity of Jesus and the historical Jesus. And then there is the question of different Christian interpretations (by clergy and or theologians) of the NT, and whether the article on Christology deserves further work. Why not turn out energies to these topics? Slrubenstein | Talk 05:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
What just happened, Atomaton's vote seems to of somehow scrambled up the history, and now several votes were deleted? Homestarmy 02:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Just happened to pass by this page and - blow me! the debate continues; astonishing! The solution is staring you all in the face but you just won't have it, will you? Here it is: Don't use AD or CE. Simply state the year with a link (e.g. 1). Years from AD 1 onwards speak for themselves. If there's a view that AD is somehow POV (can't see it myself), then don't use it - and don't use CE either. When it comes to BC vs BCE, BC does not proclaim anything. It merely sets a marker for an event that just about everyone acknowledges took place, and on which our calendar is based - so what's the problem with it? Use it! If you don't like it, fell free to use the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or any other calendar, but if you use the Gregorian calendar at least accept what it's based on. In summary: don't use AD, CE or BCE. Use BC for years prior to AD 1. Arcturus 13:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I was under the impression that the standard was -- if an article uses BC/AD in the original draft or is about Christianity, use BC/AD. Well, this article is about Christ, and original draft used BC/AD. To use such an awkward dual notation on a page about Jesus strikes me as patently absurd. -- Ben Applegate 17:34, 29 October 2006 (UTC)