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The discussion seeking consensus on the most-recent question has stalled. I would like to suggest that we "call" that one, and present a revised question based on the comments of JimWae and the compromise suggestions from Aiden, above. Hence, the new and (hopefully) improved question:
Will placing the Jesus Template at the top of the article and placing the Christianity Template in the "Life and teachings based on the Gospels" section be an acceptable arrangement? Kevin/Last1in 19:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
For everyone who wishes to participate, please sign your name using four tildes (~~~~) under the position you support, preferably adding a brief comment (please, no more than a sentence). If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place. Extended commentary should be placed in the Comments subsection, not here:
Yes
No
Conditional
Comments
There is no perfect solution to the template dilemma. I think this comes as close as possible within the bounds or reason and civility. It limits the appearance of POV without denigrating Christianity, and keeps the article readable and accessible. I commend Aiden for suggesting this course of action and JimWae for offering a way out of the rut. Kevin/Last1in 19:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Andrew, as you can tell from my comments in the past, I'm inclined to agree on principle; religion-specific templates belong in religion-specific sections. However, the entire "Life...Gospels" section is, by definition, exclusively within the Christian milieu -- non-Christian faiths don't subscribe to the Gospels. Once (or if) the rebuild of the "NT Views..." article is complete and the current section turned into a summary-with-link, perhaps we can revist the underlying issue. As present, it's a great end to a potential edit war and, with luck, will let us get back to focusing on the article itself. Kevin/Last1in 01:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I have mixed thoughts on this myself. Part of me sees Jesus' centrality to Christianity and his relative non-centrality to non-Christian faiths as an indication that not having the Christianity template at the top is an undue-weight POVism. However, there is increasing scholarship using non-synoptic-gospels to get a better picture of Jesus, and if you add in citations from apocryphal "gospels" and the Qur'an and other sources that claim authoritative knowledge of Jesus' life, then you get a different picture. However, I'm really not sure. Very bifurcated view here. My own religious view would be to say "let it go". But WP can't just ignore the Gospel of Thomas, the Qur'an's references to Jesus, etc. These often conflict, and some do not purport to historicity, but are nevertheless citable sources on the person of Jesus of Nazereth. I think I'm just going to go to sleep, as this whole thing is hurting my brain. -- Christian Edward Gruber 03:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Call me naive, but why wouldn't one put the Christianity template at the top? The Islam template is at the top of the page on Muhammad, and the Zoroastrian template is at the top of the page with Zoroaster. Lostcaesar 14:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
That's what I said, but apparently people like to ignore that Muhammad plays a role in other religions when arguing why it's OK there and not here. I attempted to restore the Christianity template to its long-standing position at the top of this article but was met with another revert war. This is at least somewhat of a compromise, even if annoyingly arbitrary. — Aiden 15:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The issue is that Jesus has about 100 spinout articles, which means this article is a summary of a large amount of more complex topics, including about a dozen different POV. ONE of the POV (and probably the most prevelant) is the Christian POV. However, there are articles that deal specifically about that and nothing else, such as Christian views of Jesus (and possibly Christology or any number of other articles). The fact of the matter is that this article is NOT part of a series on Christianity. Parts of this article are, but not the whole thing. Comparing this article to the Muhammad article isn't fair because there are not 100 different spinout articles and the summary of differeing POV and presence of non Islamic material is noticably lacking. There isn't a Islamic view of Muhammad article or more sutiable place to put the template. -- Andrew c 17:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Since we're mostly distracted by the template thing, can we please use that as an excuse to put one of the pictures of Jesus up top, I mean, I don't see how we could have the capability to argue over two things that big at once, it can only improve the article, and by the time we get around to arguing over it, the article will at least of looked better for a few days. How about that Greek orthodox one down at the foresnic section, it doesn't actually relate to the section at all since that section is mostly discussion scholar stuff, and it's origins not-with-standing, how many people are going to come to this page and go "AHA, ORTHODOX BIAS!!!1!!!11!"? Homestarmy 05:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
In all honesty, and I say this with only the slightest crack of a smile on my face, that Jesus looks either a) evil, or b) constipated. Completely honest. Can't we get a smiling icon or "neutral faced" icon to put in its stead? Also I fear that we may be running into one of the same problems that we faced when the Christianity template was at the top: Everything's smushed and harder to read. אמר Steve Caruso ( desk/ AMA) 00:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Everyone go and check out the formatting of Buddha. It has an image (fairly iconic statue) stacked on top of the Buddha template. I think that the right hand stuff is too long and looks weird when butting up against horizontal rules, and I also feel articles look better with a template, not an image, at the top (but that is just personal preference). Anyway, if other people like the formatting there, we can use that. (and keep in mind Buddha is to Christ, as Siddhartha Gautama is to Jesus, if anyone was worried about what template goes at the top of an article...)-- Andrew c 03:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the current image is a little, um, stern. At the risk of talk-page immolation, I would like to suggest the following (both in Wiki-Commons) for the picture at the top of the article. Please note: I was unable to find reference to these in the archived talk pages. If this ground has already been covered (or if anyone finds them controversial or favouring a particular faith/worldview), I will happily withdraw the suggestion. Also, if we're going to use the 2nd C. Good Shepard (Museo Epigrafico), I'd rather see the original tablet instead of the rubbing. Two such appear in Commons. Kevin/Last1in 20:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Here's a larger image of the mosaic Kevin posted above. (I really like this modern icon) — Aiden 02:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Well I have tried and tried to figure out how to get the image to float above the template like in the Buddha article but can't seem to figure it out. The Buddha article is done exactly the same way as this one but it comes out different. Perhaps it has something to do with our template? — Aiden 02:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Andrew solved it. I think it looks really good. — Aiden 00:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Excellent! A mildly-amused looking Jesus. Pretty stadnard iconography. Although I'd still like to see the 2nd century image up there, this one with its setup has two thumbs way up from me. :-) אמר Steve Caruso ( desk/ AMA) 15:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The introduction, second paragraph, begins: " The main sources of information regarding Jesus' life and teachings are the four canonical Gospels of the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John." Then, however, in the following sentence it reads: " Most scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history agree that Jesus was…". First, the use of a weasel word in the second paragraph is foreboding for the entire article. Second, the opinions of scholars might best be discussed below the introduction considering the divisive topic. Instead, I propose that the second sentence merely follow from the first, providing a summary of who Jesus was according to the four sources mentioned. Any later treatment of Jesus will have to take up this presentation, even if to just dismiss it, before continuing discussion. Thus the purpose of the introduction would be fulfilled, and scholarly opinion can be dealt with more specifically later on. Lostcaesar 14:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I think this section needs work. The main reason why is because it doesn't talk about the historicity of texts. The first paragraph merely describes in extreme brevity the writings of the Gospels and of St. Paul. The next paragraph talks about the composition of the cannon. The last paragraph merely describes in extreme brevity the apocryphal texts. The word "historicity" does not appear in the actually body text (only in the title), nor is any attempt at describing the historicity of the texts taken up. Lostcaesar 22:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
As it seems, nothing on this article can be changed without coming to talk, so here I am. The "Life and teachings based on the Gospels" does not have an introduction, and I personally dislike two headings in a row without some sort of intro (the "Historicity" section also has this fault, but the "Religious perspectives" does not). I thought I found a solution to this problem when browsing the Gautama Buddha article, so I simply copy and pasted the text and changed the names. I would like anyone to comment on this edit, but I would like Aiden ( talk · contribs) to specifically comment on the 'over the top.. POV'. I urge everyone to go the the Gautama Buddha article and read the text there and see if it is equally POV. If not, could someone explain the differences in the applications to me? If so, how could we change the text in both articles so we have an intro to that section that doesn't have these alleged POV issues. This also reminds me of complaints found in the archive, of the article sounding too much like sunday school (i.e. pushing a POV). While I dislike disclaimers, I feel that this is an adequate solution that introduces the section, while establishing the POV, without implying the gospel narative is the same thing as a historical biography. -- Andrew c 03:03, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Hmm... maybe its POV to say that part of the gospel acounts are "myth" because there is a small population of biblical literalists? But would editing that section be pandering to a minority POV (undue weight), or would it be better to find a citations and say "the majority of biblical scholars and historians..." This gets so complicated. Why isn't this an issue on the Gautama page.-- Andrew c 05:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I modified the intro to what I believe is a more NPOV version and also removed the self-referencing of the second sentence:
As few of the details of Jesus' life can be independently verified, it is difficult to guage the historical accuracy of Biblical accounts. The main sources of information on Jesus' life are the four canonical gospels, the earliest available Christian texts.
I don't think it's very neutral to assume parts are myth. Will that work? — Aiden 16:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I tried something out and was reverted. I don't understand why. The edit summary was completely ludicrious. I changed The main sources of information on Jesus' life are the four canonical gospels, some of the earliest Christian texts. to The following is a summary of Jesus' life based on the narratives found in the four canonical gospels. The former repeats information included in the opening and the historicity section, and doesn't give any introduction to the following sections, where my edit clearly states what the following section is going to be about. The issue is, we have a statement about how it is difficult to determine what is historically accurate about Jesus. If we follow that with a statement about the 4 gospels being the main source of information on Jesus, we give the impression that the following life section is describing history. Where the whole point of this introduction is to make it clear that we are giving a PLOT SUMMARY of Christian scripture, instead of presenting history. I am trying to be as neutral as possible, but I feel it is very important that this section has an introduction, and it makes it clear that we are summarizing the most popular account without critically examining questions of historicity (a whole different section). Str1977 ( talk · contribs) reverted me with the edit summary of this isn't what the article is about, is it? and I would answer that by saying "Yes, indeed, that is exactly what this section is about. "The following is a summary of Jesus' life based on the Christian gospel narratives". Nothing more, nothing less. There isn't any critical examination, there isn't any historical information, it is a straight forward plot summary. -- Andrew c 21:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 65 | Archive 66 | Archive 67 | Archive 68 | Archive 69 | Archive 70 | → | Archive 75 |
The discussion seeking consensus on the most-recent question has stalled. I would like to suggest that we "call" that one, and present a revised question based on the comments of JimWae and the compromise suggestions from Aiden, above. Hence, the new and (hopefully) improved question:
Will placing the Jesus Template at the top of the article and placing the Christianity Template in the "Life and teachings based on the Gospels" section be an acceptable arrangement? Kevin/Last1in 19:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
For everyone who wishes to participate, please sign your name using four tildes (~~~~) under the position you support, preferably adding a brief comment (please, no more than a sentence). If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place. Extended commentary should be placed in the Comments subsection, not here:
Yes
No
Conditional
Comments
There is no perfect solution to the template dilemma. I think this comes as close as possible within the bounds or reason and civility. It limits the appearance of POV without denigrating Christianity, and keeps the article readable and accessible. I commend Aiden for suggesting this course of action and JimWae for offering a way out of the rut. Kevin/Last1in 19:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Andrew, as you can tell from my comments in the past, I'm inclined to agree on principle; religion-specific templates belong in religion-specific sections. However, the entire "Life...Gospels" section is, by definition, exclusively within the Christian milieu -- non-Christian faiths don't subscribe to the Gospels. Once (or if) the rebuild of the "NT Views..." article is complete and the current section turned into a summary-with-link, perhaps we can revist the underlying issue. As present, it's a great end to a potential edit war and, with luck, will let us get back to focusing on the article itself. Kevin/Last1in 01:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I have mixed thoughts on this myself. Part of me sees Jesus' centrality to Christianity and his relative non-centrality to non-Christian faiths as an indication that not having the Christianity template at the top is an undue-weight POVism. However, there is increasing scholarship using non-synoptic-gospels to get a better picture of Jesus, and if you add in citations from apocryphal "gospels" and the Qur'an and other sources that claim authoritative knowledge of Jesus' life, then you get a different picture. However, I'm really not sure. Very bifurcated view here. My own religious view would be to say "let it go". But WP can't just ignore the Gospel of Thomas, the Qur'an's references to Jesus, etc. These often conflict, and some do not purport to historicity, but are nevertheless citable sources on the person of Jesus of Nazereth. I think I'm just going to go to sleep, as this whole thing is hurting my brain. -- Christian Edward Gruber 03:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Call me naive, but why wouldn't one put the Christianity template at the top? The Islam template is at the top of the page on Muhammad, and the Zoroastrian template is at the top of the page with Zoroaster. Lostcaesar 14:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
That's what I said, but apparently people like to ignore that Muhammad plays a role in other religions when arguing why it's OK there and not here. I attempted to restore the Christianity template to its long-standing position at the top of this article but was met with another revert war. This is at least somewhat of a compromise, even if annoyingly arbitrary. — Aiden 15:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The issue is that Jesus has about 100 spinout articles, which means this article is a summary of a large amount of more complex topics, including about a dozen different POV. ONE of the POV (and probably the most prevelant) is the Christian POV. However, there are articles that deal specifically about that and nothing else, such as Christian views of Jesus (and possibly Christology or any number of other articles). The fact of the matter is that this article is NOT part of a series on Christianity. Parts of this article are, but not the whole thing. Comparing this article to the Muhammad article isn't fair because there are not 100 different spinout articles and the summary of differeing POV and presence of non Islamic material is noticably lacking. There isn't a Islamic view of Muhammad article or more sutiable place to put the template. -- Andrew c 17:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Since we're mostly distracted by the template thing, can we please use that as an excuse to put one of the pictures of Jesus up top, I mean, I don't see how we could have the capability to argue over two things that big at once, it can only improve the article, and by the time we get around to arguing over it, the article will at least of looked better for a few days. How about that Greek orthodox one down at the foresnic section, it doesn't actually relate to the section at all since that section is mostly discussion scholar stuff, and it's origins not-with-standing, how many people are going to come to this page and go "AHA, ORTHODOX BIAS!!!1!!!11!"? Homestarmy 05:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
In all honesty, and I say this with only the slightest crack of a smile on my face, that Jesus looks either a) evil, or b) constipated. Completely honest. Can't we get a smiling icon or "neutral faced" icon to put in its stead? Also I fear that we may be running into one of the same problems that we faced when the Christianity template was at the top: Everything's smushed and harder to read. אמר Steve Caruso ( desk/ AMA) 00:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Everyone go and check out the formatting of Buddha. It has an image (fairly iconic statue) stacked on top of the Buddha template. I think that the right hand stuff is too long and looks weird when butting up against horizontal rules, and I also feel articles look better with a template, not an image, at the top (but that is just personal preference). Anyway, if other people like the formatting there, we can use that. (and keep in mind Buddha is to Christ, as Siddhartha Gautama is to Jesus, if anyone was worried about what template goes at the top of an article...)-- Andrew c 03:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the current image is a little, um, stern. At the risk of talk-page immolation, I would like to suggest the following (both in Wiki-Commons) for the picture at the top of the article. Please note: I was unable to find reference to these in the archived talk pages. If this ground has already been covered (or if anyone finds them controversial or favouring a particular faith/worldview), I will happily withdraw the suggestion. Also, if we're going to use the 2nd C. Good Shepard (Museo Epigrafico), I'd rather see the original tablet instead of the rubbing. Two such appear in Commons. Kevin/Last1in 20:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Here's a larger image of the mosaic Kevin posted above. (I really like this modern icon) — Aiden 02:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Well I have tried and tried to figure out how to get the image to float above the template like in the Buddha article but can't seem to figure it out. The Buddha article is done exactly the same way as this one but it comes out different. Perhaps it has something to do with our template? — Aiden 02:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Andrew solved it. I think it looks really good. — Aiden 00:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Excellent! A mildly-amused looking Jesus. Pretty stadnard iconography. Although I'd still like to see the 2nd century image up there, this one with its setup has two thumbs way up from me. :-) אמר Steve Caruso ( desk/ AMA) 15:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The introduction, second paragraph, begins: " The main sources of information regarding Jesus' life and teachings are the four canonical Gospels of the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John." Then, however, in the following sentence it reads: " Most scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history agree that Jesus was…". First, the use of a weasel word in the second paragraph is foreboding for the entire article. Second, the opinions of scholars might best be discussed below the introduction considering the divisive topic. Instead, I propose that the second sentence merely follow from the first, providing a summary of who Jesus was according to the four sources mentioned. Any later treatment of Jesus will have to take up this presentation, even if to just dismiss it, before continuing discussion. Thus the purpose of the introduction would be fulfilled, and scholarly opinion can be dealt with more specifically later on. Lostcaesar 14:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I think this section needs work. The main reason why is because it doesn't talk about the historicity of texts. The first paragraph merely describes in extreme brevity the writings of the Gospels and of St. Paul. The next paragraph talks about the composition of the cannon. The last paragraph merely describes in extreme brevity the apocryphal texts. The word "historicity" does not appear in the actually body text (only in the title), nor is any attempt at describing the historicity of the texts taken up. Lostcaesar 22:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
As it seems, nothing on this article can be changed without coming to talk, so here I am. The "Life and teachings based on the Gospels" does not have an introduction, and I personally dislike two headings in a row without some sort of intro (the "Historicity" section also has this fault, but the "Religious perspectives" does not). I thought I found a solution to this problem when browsing the Gautama Buddha article, so I simply copy and pasted the text and changed the names. I would like anyone to comment on this edit, but I would like Aiden ( talk · contribs) to specifically comment on the 'over the top.. POV'. I urge everyone to go the the Gautama Buddha article and read the text there and see if it is equally POV. If not, could someone explain the differences in the applications to me? If so, how could we change the text in both articles so we have an intro to that section that doesn't have these alleged POV issues. This also reminds me of complaints found in the archive, of the article sounding too much like sunday school (i.e. pushing a POV). While I dislike disclaimers, I feel that this is an adequate solution that introduces the section, while establishing the POV, without implying the gospel narative is the same thing as a historical biography. -- Andrew c 03:03, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Hmm... maybe its POV to say that part of the gospel acounts are "myth" because there is a small population of biblical literalists? But would editing that section be pandering to a minority POV (undue weight), or would it be better to find a citations and say "the majority of biblical scholars and historians..." This gets so complicated. Why isn't this an issue on the Gautama page.-- Andrew c 05:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I modified the intro to what I believe is a more NPOV version and also removed the self-referencing of the second sentence:
As few of the details of Jesus' life can be independently verified, it is difficult to guage the historical accuracy of Biblical accounts. The main sources of information on Jesus' life are the four canonical gospels, the earliest available Christian texts.
I don't think it's very neutral to assume parts are myth. Will that work? — Aiden 16:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I tried something out and was reverted. I don't understand why. The edit summary was completely ludicrious. I changed The main sources of information on Jesus' life are the four canonical gospels, some of the earliest Christian texts. to The following is a summary of Jesus' life based on the narratives found in the four canonical gospels. The former repeats information included in the opening and the historicity section, and doesn't give any introduction to the following sections, where my edit clearly states what the following section is going to be about. The issue is, we have a statement about how it is difficult to determine what is historically accurate about Jesus. If we follow that with a statement about the 4 gospels being the main source of information on Jesus, we give the impression that the following life section is describing history. Where the whole point of this introduction is to make it clear that we are giving a PLOT SUMMARY of Christian scripture, instead of presenting history. I am trying to be as neutral as possible, but I feel it is very important that this section has an introduction, and it makes it clear that we are summarizing the most popular account without critically examining questions of historicity (a whole different section). Str1977 ( talk · contribs) reverted me with the edit summary of this isn't what the article is about, is it? and I would answer that by saying "Yes, indeed, that is exactly what this section is about. "The following is a summary of Jesus' life based on the Christian gospel narratives". Nothing more, nothing less. There isn't any critical examination, there isn't any historical information, it is a straight forward plot summary. -- Andrew c 21:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)