![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 60 | ← | Archive 62 | Archive 63 | Archive 64 | Archive 65 | Archive 66 | → | Archive 70 |
Once again the Xty template says Jesus was God the Son. This happens over & over again -- this time thanks to Aiden. I have removed the template from this article & encourage others to do the same until the blatant POV is removed -- JimWae 05:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
We've been through this before & I am sure I was NOT the only one who thought that it compromised the NPOV of the Jesus article to say Jesus is God the Son. "Calm down" & "I'm sure no one else shares your opinion" is arrogant & dismissive -- JimWae 05:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Finding an appropriate link is not my problem. It was OK before - try that one or remove the template from this article. So you really think professing faith is NPOV, eh? -- JimWae 05:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Fist of all, Christology is the "study of Christ", not "study of Jesus", as you should already know. But,as I said, the problem is not mine. Can people who think professing faith is NPOV handle this, or does it need another hand? -- JimWae 05:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I will say this once more - it is not my problem. If an NPOV link cannot be found for "God the Son" then, for a start, the Xty template has to be removed from the Jesus article -- JimWae 06:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I was always of the opinion that the Christianity template should be placed within the Christainity section of the article, as Jesus has a template spread all for himself which is currently in "second place." According WP:NPOV, bias is to be avoided: "A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense of having a predilection for one particular point of view or ideology." Under this, having the Christianity template at the top of the article appears to be a strong predilection for one particular point of view, i.e. Trinitarian Christianity or just Christianity in general and should, under Wikipedia Policy, be altered. אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 22:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is a good example of what I feel is more in-line with WP:NPOV in terms of template placement: Gautama Buddha. The {{ Buddhism2}} template is placed at the bottom of the article in a fashion that identifies the article as a part on the Buddhism series in a more discrete manner. אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 15:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
We've already had a problem with solving this dispute, so I suggest that we all try and adhere to WP:DR and walk through this. Edits as to the placement of the Christianity template have been reverted a couple times. According to policy we must not simply revert changes in a dispute. We have already brought this issue to the talk page, so I believe that we need to talk things out further.
The Policy on NPOV states (all underlined emphasis, minus links, are mine in the following):
NPOV (Neutral Point Of View) is a fundamental Wikipedia principle which states that all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias. This includes maps, reader-facing templates, categories and portals. According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable."
Further in the Policy, it states:
A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense of having a predilection for one particular point of view or ideology.
And as an example of bias, it lists:
I doubt that any of us disagree that the Christianity template has a very specific point of view and ideology that it focuses upon. To place such a reader-facing template at the top of the article (where there already is a template about the subject that represents a multitude of different views) gives one religious viewpoint {...} preference over others.
As a result, such a template is not in step with Wikipedia Policy and must be either removed, rewritten, or placed somewhere more appropriate (i.e. the Christianity section of this article). I strongly encourage the third of these options as it is the cleanest and least controversial path towards compliance of the three.
Does everyone else at least see where I'm coming from? :-) אמר Steve Caruso ( desk/ poll) 16:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Comments:
I think it's contrived to the point of sillyness not to include the Christianity template in the Jesus article. Tom Harrison Talk 17:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Template:Christianity has recently been changed, and no longer includes the "controversial" "God the Son" link. The template now has its own section on Jesus Christ, which was an excellent edit in my opinion (I did not perform the edit). I don't know how someone got the idea of moving the template to the "Christian views" section of this article, but it is ridiculous. The opening sentence of this article refers to Jesus being the "central figure of Christianity", and he is certainly known best (perhaps only) for his association with Christianity. If this template is either removed or moved to the "Christian views" section, I will have to begin removing other templates such as Template:Buddhism from Buddha and other related edits to prevent discrimination against Christianity. Please, let's just leave the template at the top where it resided for so long, uncontroversially. — ` CRAZY` (IN)` SANE` 19:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Sophia, I appreciate the kind words and I believe that your idea about a cross-religion discussion is something that is far long overdue. We need to come up with standards with how to deal with articles on religion, as it is something of universial importance to the human race, and touches each and every one of us in some way throughout the course of our lives.
CrazyInSane, I was the one who made the edit to the Christianity template, which was subsequently reverted. :-( Jesus may be the "central figure of Christianity" but the Christianity template is not centered around Jesus (the Jesus template is). I firmly believe that the template should not be removed, but that at the top of the article, it is in direct conflict with the policies that I have stated above, and unless we are able to collectively conclude that it does not conflict with those policies, putting it in the Christianity section is the most appropriate course of action. This, of course, would also hold true with all other religion templates and their respective figures. It would kill me to only single one out and leave the others alone, but with how things are currently set up, the situation and policy, we need to resolve this and the Jesus article appears to be the first step towards bringing every article into complaince. I have no anti-Christian bias to speak of. I do take concern, however, when the policies of Wikipedia, which came into being through consensus of our fellow editors, are disregarded even if no harm was meant. For now, I must ask you with the most sincere respect to discuss the policies specifically so that we may take further steps towards resolving this in a friendly manner.
Aiden, I truly appreciate your input, but what you linked to doesn't really discuss the Christianity template, but the Islam template, and under my proposal both templates, in their respective sections, could be allowed to co-exist peacefully and without conflicting with NPOV. As I mentioned earlier, I am not biased against Christianity, nor do I believe that there is an anti-Christian conspiracy in the United States. :-) As stated earlier, my proposal would bring all major religious figures under the same wing, in compliance with the policies that I have outlined above, not singling any one or few out. I don't mean this article, or anyone involved with this article any personal distress, but we must focus upon Wikipedia policy in our contribution. What are your thoughts, specifically about the policy?
Once again, to everyone involved if I have misinterpreted the policies, please show me my error. I am willing to be honest in my evaluations and alter my stance if I am mistaken. Peace! אמר Steve Caruso ( desk/ poll) 01:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
In either case, i expect the Islam template in the Muslim section. , Im not to sure if i like the special treatment of the christian template going to the top, but im not going to bother fighting it... -- Striver 02:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Steve, the problem with taking the Islamic viewpoint as historical is that the Qu'ran was written over 500 years after Jesus death and it does not draw from any historical sources. In fact, the Qu'ran, written entirely by one man (Muhammad) does not draw from any other sources. In the writings of the Gospels (which at the very least can be tracked back to a generation after Jesus life) draw from historical sources. For example, The Gospels mention Caeser, Pontius Pilate, Caiphas, and others who are confirmed to have lived during this time. It's very frustrating to hear someone complain about the historical existence of Jesus when we have enough evidence that indicates that he must have existed (or at least those who lived during his lifetime attest that he had). Its more frustrating to relate to Islamic sources, which were five centuries detached from the events, and among other things confuse his mother's father with another Mary (Miriam sister of Moses). With Judaism, no one would dispute the existence of Moses, or Elijah. With Islam no one disputes the existence of Muhammad. Why then must Jesus be disputed within Christianity? No religion should be given special treatment, nor should any religion be given undue denigration. Bear in mind, they won't even put the word origin and translation of his name in the first paragraph. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 15:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
The comparison to the Buddha article is off. Buddha is to Christ, as Jesus is to Gautama Buddha. Next, there is already a few templates on this article, and stacking vertical templates is a terrible idea (using tables to separate them is one option. And to whoever reverted the template move and ignored my note in my edit summary... would you like to learn how to not stack vertical templates?) We have: Topics related to Jesus, Major events in Jesus' life in the Gospels, and Christianity. The "Events" template fits nicely in the section about, well, events. The Jesus Topics template seems to go fine at the top. So where should we put the Christianity template? There is a section about religious perspectives. Christianity is a religion... so it seems logical to put the template in that section. What am I missing? That because Jesus is MORE important to Christianity, that their perspective should go at the top of the article instead of in the religious perspective's section? Seriously, I don't get it. -- Andrew c 20:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 60 | ← | Archive 62 | Archive 63 | Archive 64 | Archive 65 | Archive 66 | → | Archive 70 |
Once again the Xty template says Jesus was God the Son. This happens over & over again -- this time thanks to Aiden. I have removed the template from this article & encourage others to do the same until the blatant POV is removed -- JimWae 05:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
We've been through this before & I am sure I was NOT the only one who thought that it compromised the NPOV of the Jesus article to say Jesus is God the Son. "Calm down" & "I'm sure no one else shares your opinion" is arrogant & dismissive -- JimWae 05:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Finding an appropriate link is not my problem. It was OK before - try that one or remove the template from this article. So you really think professing faith is NPOV, eh? -- JimWae 05:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Fist of all, Christology is the "study of Christ", not "study of Jesus", as you should already know. But,as I said, the problem is not mine. Can people who think professing faith is NPOV handle this, or does it need another hand? -- JimWae 05:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I will say this once more - it is not my problem. If an NPOV link cannot be found for "God the Son" then, for a start, the Xty template has to be removed from the Jesus article -- JimWae 06:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I was always of the opinion that the Christianity template should be placed within the Christainity section of the article, as Jesus has a template spread all for himself which is currently in "second place." According WP:NPOV, bias is to be avoided: "A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense of having a predilection for one particular point of view or ideology." Under this, having the Christianity template at the top of the article appears to be a strong predilection for one particular point of view, i.e. Trinitarian Christianity or just Christianity in general and should, under Wikipedia Policy, be altered. אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 22:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is a good example of what I feel is more in-line with WP:NPOV in terms of template placement: Gautama Buddha. The {{ Buddhism2}} template is placed at the bottom of the article in a fashion that identifies the article as a part on the Buddhism series in a more discrete manner. אמר Steve Caruso (poll) 15:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
We've already had a problem with solving this dispute, so I suggest that we all try and adhere to WP:DR and walk through this. Edits as to the placement of the Christianity template have been reverted a couple times. According to policy we must not simply revert changes in a dispute. We have already brought this issue to the talk page, so I believe that we need to talk things out further.
The Policy on NPOV states (all underlined emphasis, minus links, are mine in the following):
NPOV (Neutral Point Of View) is a fundamental Wikipedia principle which states that all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias. This includes maps, reader-facing templates, categories and portals. According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable."
Further in the Policy, it states:
A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense of having a predilection for one particular point of view or ideology.
And as an example of bias, it lists:
I doubt that any of us disagree that the Christianity template has a very specific point of view and ideology that it focuses upon. To place such a reader-facing template at the top of the article (where there already is a template about the subject that represents a multitude of different views) gives one religious viewpoint {...} preference over others.
As a result, such a template is not in step with Wikipedia Policy and must be either removed, rewritten, or placed somewhere more appropriate (i.e. the Christianity section of this article). I strongly encourage the third of these options as it is the cleanest and least controversial path towards compliance of the three.
Does everyone else at least see where I'm coming from? :-) אמר Steve Caruso ( desk/ poll) 16:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Comments:
I think it's contrived to the point of sillyness not to include the Christianity template in the Jesus article. Tom Harrison Talk 17:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Template:Christianity has recently been changed, and no longer includes the "controversial" "God the Son" link. The template now has its own section on Jesus Christ, which was an excellent edit in my opinion (I did not perform the edit). I don't know how someone got the idea of moving the template to the "Christian views" section of this article, but it is ridiculous. The opening sentence of this article refers to Jesus being the "central figure of Christianity", and he is certainly known best (perhaps only) for his association with Christianity. If this template is either removed or moved to the "Christian views" section, I will have to begin removing other templates such as Template:Buddhism from Buddha and other related edits to prevent discrimination against Christianity. Please, let's just leave the template at the top where it resided for so long, uncontroversially. — ` CRAZY` (IN)` SANE` 19:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Sophia, I appreciate the kind words and I believe that your idea about a cross-religion discussion is something that is far long overdue. We need to come up with standards with how to deal with articles on religion, as it is something of universial importance to the human race, and touches each and every one of us in some way throughout the course of our lives.
CrazyInSane, I was the one who made the edit to the Christianity template, which was subsequently reverted. :-( Jesus may be the "central figure of Christianity" but the Christianity template is not centered around Jesus (the Jesus template is). I firmly believe that the template should not be removed, but that at the top of the article, it is in direct conflict with the policies that I have stated above, and unless we are able to collectively conclude that it does not conflict with those policies, putting it in the Christianity section is the most appropriate course of action. This, of course, would also hold true with all other religion templates and their respective figures. It would kill me to only single one out and leave the others alone, but with how things are currently set up, the situation and policy, we need to resolve this and the Jesus article appears to be the first step towards bringing every article into complaince. I have no anti-Christian bias to speak of. I do take concern, however, when the policies of Wikipedia, which came into being through consensus of our fellow editors, are disregarded even if no harm was meant. For now, I must ask you with the most sincere respect to discuss the policies specifically so that we may take further steps towards resolving this in a friendly manner.
Aiden, I truly appreciate your input, but what you linked to doesn't really discuss the Christianity template, but the Islam template, and under my proposal both templates, in their respective sections, could be allowed to co-exist peacefully and without conflicting with NPOV. As I mentioned earlier, I am not biased against Christianity, nor do I believe that there is an anti-Christian conspiracy in the United States. :-) As stated earlier, my proposal would bring all major religious figures under the same wing, in compliance with the policies that I have outlined above, not singling any one or few out. I don't mean this article, or anyone involved with this article any personal distress, but we must focus upon Wikipedia policy in our contribution. What are your thoughts, specifically about the policy?
Once again, to everyone involved if I have misinterpreted the policies, please show me my error. I am willing to be honest in my evaluations and alter my stance if I am mistaken. Peace! אמר Steve Caruso ( desk/ poll) 01:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
In either case, i expect the Islam template in the Muslim section. , Im not to sure if i like the special treatment of the christian template going to the top, but im not going to bother fighting it... -- Striver 02:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Steve, the problem with taking the Islamic viewpoint as historical is that the Qu'ran was written over 500 years after Jesus death and it does not draw from any historical sources. In fact, the Qu'ran, written entirely by one man (Muhammad) does not draw from any other sources. In the writings of the Gospels (which at the very least can be tracked back to a generation after Jesus life) draw from historical sources. For example, The Gospels mention Caeser, Pontius Pilate, Caiphas, and others who are confirmed to have lived during this time. It's very frustrating to hear someone complain about the historical existence of Jesus when we have enough evidence that indicates that he must have existed (or at least those who lived during his lifetime attest that he had). Its more frustrating to relate to Islamic sources, which were five centuries detached from the events, and among other things confuse his mother's father with another Mary (Miriam sister of Moses). With Judaism, no one would dispute the existence of Moses, or Elijah. With Islam no one disputes the existence of Muhammad. Why then must Jesus be disputed within Christianity? No religion should be given special treatment, nor should any religion be given undue denigration. Bear in mind, they won't even put the word origin and translation of his name in the first paragraph. -- Zaphnathpaaneah 15:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
The comparison to the Buddha article is off. Buddha is to Christ, as Jesus is to Gautama Buddha. Next, there is already a few templates on this article, and stacking vertical templates is a terrible idea (using tables to separate them is one option. And to whoever reverted the template move and ignored my note in my edit summary... would you like to learn how to not stack vertical templates?) We have: Topics related to Jesus, Major events in Jesus' life in the Gospels, and Christianity. The "Events" template fits nicely in the section about, well, events. The Jesus Topics template seems to go fine at the top. So where should we put the Christianity template? There is a section about religious perspectives. Christianity is a religion... so it seems logical to put the template in that section. What am I missing? That because Jesus is MORE important to Christianity, that their perspective should go at the top of the article instead of in the religious perspective's section? Seriously, I don't get it. -- Andrew c 20:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)