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Will someone please state that this is fiction? Or link to fiction in "topics related to Jesus".
Also, something that should be added is the theories in which Jesus was Iulius Caesar / John the Nazarene.
skribb 17:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Well for references you have The Fable of Christ by Luigii Cascioli and Jesus was Caesar by Francesco Carotta. John the Nazarene was a man that lived during Jesus' time, a man that actually could be the real Jesus. skribb 16:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I meant John the Baptist. And what do you mean Christ isn't the same as Jesus? By "Jesus" do you mean the physical person, and by Christ, his divinity? Because if you don't, it's the same person, right? skribb 19:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, Jesus is also a title, correct? From the greek "iessous" meaning anointed? Also, I find it quite saddening to see so many christians in "charge" of this article. We need more atheists and freethinkers, ones who aren't biased and subjective. I'm not saying you are, but there are others who are. skribb 23:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
MonkeeSage: It has happened to me.
On another note, I think I'll remove this article from my watchlist. It makes me weep. skribb 16:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Why is everyone fannying around with the truth. Anyone who disputes the historicity of Julius Ceaser doesn't get a mention on his page, so why, when there is more evidence for a historical Jesus than Henry VIII or Julius Ceaser, does this get a mention on Jesus' page. Also, why is his divinity questioned, when he rose from the dead? Why is existence of a creator God (which Jesus was) questioned when we live in a created world? What unbelieving times we live in —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Erf28 ( talk • contribs) 18:53, 26 May 2006.
I added this article to Category:Criminals. This is not an attempt to start a flamewar or to troll; by all contemporary accounts (and even The Bible), Jesus broke Roman laws through His religious teachings. Adding this article to this category is not a justification of his execution, but rather an objective categorization of the page. Just wanted to clear this up so that my action wasn't dismissed as derogatory. Jeff Silvers 04:37, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I thought about it... would "Disputed convictions" perhaps be a better category? The question that needs to be answered is this: Did Jesus' actions constitute a crime under Roman law? If so, he belongs in the criminal category; if not, then perhaps disputed convictions is more fitting. Jeff Silvers 05:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
For those who believe Jesus lived, there is virtually no doubt that he was crucified. This means that he was found guilty of a crime. Most critical historians believe this crime was sedition. Now, Wikipedia is not about "truth," the question is not whether he "really" was a criminal. It is not the place of Wikipedia to declare whether Mumia Abu-Jamal, for example, was "really" guilty. But Abu-Jamal was convicted of a crime. Similarly, many people, including historians, do believe Jesus was convicted of a crime. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:51, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I have problems with the implication that there are undisputed criminals or that being a criminal is bad. What King a criminal when in the Birmingham jail? If so, I applaud his breaking of the law. Ditto Ghandi. Sometimes the world needs a criminal. To me, to call Jesus a "disputed criminal" is to day "disputed good guy." Well, maybe that is what you mean. Maybe some people think Jesus should not have broken any laws. I guess to keep NPOV ... on the other hand, don't we take it for granted that "criminal" is always necessarily from one point of view? In other words, to call someone a criminal is not the same thing as to call them an animal or a vegetable. "Criminal" is always from a particular POV. Criminal is always disputed (most people in prison say they are innocent). So isn't "disputed criminal" redundent? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
We do not know how Pilate really felt as we have divergent accounts of Pilate. All who agree Jesus exist, however, agree that he was executed by crucifiction. Just or unjust, this is punishment for violation of some law. I think that what is important - in terms of classifying/providing a link - is that Jesus was not murdered by an individual or group of individuals, or even assassinated, but was executed by the state. Now, we can argue as to whether wikipedia should have links for people who are classified according to how they died. But if we are to have such categories, I think it makes sense to have classes like, died of illness, died of accident, was murdered (apolitical), was assassinated (political), was exscuted (by the state). Jesus clearly falls under the final category, whatever the reasons for the execution or their merits may have been. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Paul of Tarsus, Saint Peter, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Michael Servetus, Patrick Hamilton (martyr), Jan Hus, Hugh Latimer etc. are not included in the criminals category. Neither is John Bunyan, who was never executed but spent a lot of time in jail for preaching without a licence and preached out the window from his cell. Neither is Martin Luther King, Jr., BTW. A.J.A. 15:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I never meant to insinuate that being a criminal is a bad thing. Criminal is defined by The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language as One that has committed or been legally convicted of a crime. The categorization boils down to whether Jesus' actions actually constituted a crime under Roman law or whether he was executed by the state because they viewed him as a threat. Since there seems to be varying opinions on that subject, "disputed convictions" is probably a better category for this article than criminals. Jeff Silvers 19:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The tag was placed several days ago here, but the editor never came to discuss. No drive-by tagging. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 07:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
sorry about that, archived to archive 57 Spicynugget 18:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
There are a few points we can all agree on.
Spicynugget 17:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
There will always be a few of people who attempt to find a reason to disagree with There will always be a few of people who attempt to find a reason to disagree with these sine quo non points. A list of those people is being formed on my talk page. these sine quo non points. A list of those people is being formed on my talk page. Spicynugget 18:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC) Spicynugget 18:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Small suggestion, maybe it belongs in the pending tasks box but I didn't want to seem foward. Could the various inline links to Biblical verses use inline citation rather than inline links? It's better style, generally preferred in FACs, and keeps the text looking prettier (just a small [42] or whatever rather than a larger link in the article text). Staxringold talk contribs 21:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Please see: [1]
1) Its important, to point out at the beginning of the lemma that Since the First Council of Nicaea most Christians are Trinitarian
Why?: Most people think falsly, our contemporary belief in Trinitary is normal case. But it's important to know, the vast majority of christs in the ancient world shared the perspectiv of Arius. Our today-believ is the exotic POV, not the original.
2) This is a quite interesting case:
*
Luigi Cascoli sues for Proof of Jesus
None the less it was done away too. (My fault, did function up to yesterday, now the clip isn't available any more
Foreigner)
Thanks for attention Foreigner 08:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Foreigner, you are displaying a common misconception. The Council of Nicaea did not invent Trinitarianism, it just clarified a certain aspect of it. In his way, Arius was Trinitarian too. However, there is not evidence for "the vast majority of Christ(ian)s" agreeing with him. Str1977 (smile back) 10:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The second paragraph used to end with a sentence stating that a minority of schoalrs reject the existence of Jesus. I thought that was accepted as part of the compromise - I certainly see no problem with the setnence (though I think it should be concise and non-argumentative). what's up? Slrubenstein | Talk 11:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I must just be confused. As of this moment, the paragraph reads as I remember it, and as I think it should read. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
A current subtitle includes "execution" instead of "crucifiction". The known method of execution was crucifiction, which is simply a more specific term. Also, it is a better known term for the event described. Any objections to changing? 69.136.243.29 23:17, May 31, 2006
Do we need a separate section for this? It's such a small group of people; I think we should either make a sub-section under the Jewish view or place the paragraph under the 'Other Christians views' section. — Aiden 15:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
This small group of people is growing and increasing in significance. One of my close friends is a mesianic jew, and I have learned a lot about life and tradition from him. He would contribute uniquely to the discussion of Jesus. I think it needs its own section, or at least put it under the Other Christians views to maintain organizational integrity. 64.81.228.110 15:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Strictly speaking all Christians are Messianic Jews. . . . standonbible 18:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
This is tangential, but I've never heard Jews who convert to Catholicism described as "Messianic Jews". The term seems to me to very strongly connote a very particular type - Jewish converts to Evangelical Christianity - "Jews for Jesus" and so forth. The article on Messianic Judaism supports this view. A Jew who converted to Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy or a mainline Protestant Church would not normally be seen as a "Messianic Jew," as far as I'm aware. john k 17:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that Christology should be added to the topics related to Jesus box that accompanies the Jesus tag. Does anyone object? If not, could someone add it? Slrubenstein | Talk 13:41, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
This article has just been removed from the Article Improvement Drive. I'd like to thank everyone who has helped out over the last few weeks; of course, they are still some pending tasks /to do. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 17:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 55 | ← | Archive 58 | Archive 59 | Archive 60 | Archive 61 | Archive 62 | → | Archive 65 |
Will someone please state that this is fiction? Or link to fiction in "topics related to Jesus".
Also, something that should be added is the theories in which Jesus was Iulius Caesar / John the Nazarene.
skribb 17:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Well for references you have The Fable of Christ by Luigii Cascioli and Jesus was Caesar by Francesco Carotta. John the Nazarene was a man that lived during Jesus' time, a man that actually could be the real Jesus. skribb 16:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I meant John the Baptist. And what do you mean Christ isn't the same as Jesus? By "Jesus" do you mean the physical person, and by Christ, his divinity? Because if you don't, it's the same person, right? skribb 19:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, Jesus is also a title, correct? From the greek "iessous" meaning anointed? Also, I find it quite saddening to see so many christians in "charge" of this article. We need more atheists and freethinkers, ones who aren't biased and subjective. I'm not saying you are, but there are others who are. skribb 23:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
MonkeeSage: It has happened to me.
On another note, I think I'll remove this article from my watchlist. It makes me weep. skribb 16:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Why is everyone fannying around with the truth. Anyone who disputes the historicity of Julius Ceaser doesn't get a mention on his page, so why, when there is more evidence for a historical Jesus than Henry VIII or Julius Ceaser, does this get a mention on Jesus' page. Also, why is his divinity questioned, when he rose from the dead? Why is existence of a creator God (which Jesus was) questioned when we live in a created world? What unbelieving times we live in —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Erf28 ( talk • contribs) 18:53, 26 May 2006.
I added this article to Category:Criminals. This is not an attempt to start a flamewar or to troll; by all contemporary accounts (and even The Bible), Jesus broke Roman laws through His religious teachings. Adding this article to this category is not a justification of his execution, but rather an objective categorization of the page. Just wanted to clear this up so that my action wasn't dismissed as derogatory. Jeff Silvers 04:37, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I thought about it... would "Disputed convictions" perhaps be a better category? The question that needs to be answered is this: Did Jesus' actions constitute a crime under Roman law? If so, he belongs in the criminal category; if not, then perhaps disputed convictions is more fitting. Jeff Silvers 05:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
For those who believe Jesus lived, there is virtually no doubt that he was crucified. This means that he was found guilty of a crime. Most critical historians believe this crime was sedition. Now, Wikipedia is not about "truth," the question is not whether he "really" was a criminal. It is not the place of Wikipedia to declare whether Mumia Abu-Jamal, for example, was "really" guilty. But Abu-Jamal was convicted of a crime. Similarly, many people, including historians, do believe Jesus was convicted of a crime. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:51, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I have problems with the implication that there are undisputed criminals or that being a criminal is bad. What King a criminal when in the Birmingham jail? If so, I applaud his breaking of the law. Ditto Ghandi. Sometimes the world needs a criminal. To me, to call Jesus a "disputed criminal" is to day "disputed good guy." Well, maybe that is what you mean. Maybe some people think Jesus should not have broken any laws. I guess to keep NPOV ... on the other hand, don't we take it for granted that "criminal" is always necessarily from one point of view? In other words, to call someone a criminal is not the same thing as to call them an animal or a vegetable. "Criminal" is always from a particular POV. Criminal is always disputed (most people in prison say they are innocent). So isn't "disputed criminal" redundent? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
We do not know how Pilate really felt as we have divergent accounts of Pilate. All who agree Jesus exist, however, agree that he was executed by crucifiction. Just or unjust, this is punishment for violation of some law. I think that what is important - in terms of classifying/providing a link - is that Jesus was not murdered by an individual or group of individuals, or even assassinated, but was executed by the state. Now, we can argue as to whether wikipedia should have links for people who are classified according to how they died. But if we are to have such categories, I think it makes sense to have classes like, died of illness, died of accident, was murdered (apolitical), was assassinated (political), was exscuted (by the state). Jesus clearly falls under the final category, whatever the reasons for the execution or their merits may have been. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Paul of Tarsus, Saint Peter, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Michael Servetus, Patrick Hamilton (martyr), Jan Hus, Hugh Latimer etc. are not included in the criminals category. Neither is John Bunyan, who was never executed but spent a lot of time in jail for preaching without a licence and preached out the window from his cell. Neither is Martin Luther King, Jr., BTW. A.J.A. 15:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I never meant to insinuate that being a criminal is a bad thing. Criminal is defined by The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language as One that has committed or been legally convicted of a crime. The categorization boils down to whether Jesus' actions actually constituted a crime under Roman law or whether he was executed by the state because they viewed him as a threat. Since there seems to be varying opinions on that subject, "disputed convictions" is probably a better category for this article than criminals. Jeff Silvers 19:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The tag was placed several days ago here, but the editor never came to discuss. No drive-by tagging. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 07:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
sorry about that, archived to archive 57 Spicynugget 18:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
There are a few points we can all agree on.
Spicynugget 17:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
There will always be a few of people who attempt to find a reason to disagree with There will always be a few of people who attempt to find a reason to disagree with these sine quo non points. A list of those people is being formed on my talk page. these sine quo non points. A list of those people is being formed on my talk page. Spicynugget 18:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC) Spicynugget 18:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Small suggestion, maybe it belongs in the pending tasks box but I didn't want to seem foward. Could the various inline links to Biblical verses use inline citation rather than inline links? It's better style, generally preferred in FACs, and keeps the text looking prettier (just a small [42] or whatever rather than a larger link in the article text). Staxringold talk contribs 21:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Please see: [1]
1) Its important, to point out at the beginning of the lemma that Since the First Council of Nicaea most Christians are Trinitarian
Why?: Most people think falsly, our contemporary belief in Trinitary is normal case. But it's important to know, the vast majority of christs in the ancient world shared the perspectiv of Arius. Our today-believ is the exotic POV, not the original.
2) This is a quite interesting case:
*
Luigi Cascoli sues for Proof of Jesus
None the less it was done away too. (My fault, did function up to yesterday, now the clip isn't available any more
Foreigner)
Thanks for attention Foreigner 08:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Foreigner, you are displaying a common misconception. The Council of Nicaea did not invent Trinitarianism, it just clarified a certain aspect of it. In his way, Arius was Trinitarian too. However, there is not evidence for "the vast majority of Christ(ian)s" agreeing with him. Str1977 (smile back) 10:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The second paragraph used to end with a sentence stating that a minority of schoalrs reject the existence of Jesus. I thought that was accepted as part of the compromise - I certainly see no problem with the setnence (though I think it should be concise and non-argumentative). what's up? Slrubenstein | Talk 11:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I must just be confused. As of this moment, the paragraph reads as I remember it, and as I think it should read. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
A current subtitle includes "execution" instead of "crucifiction". The known method of execution was crucifiction, which is simply a more specific term. Also, it is a better known term for the event described. Any objections to changing? 69.136.243.29 23:17, May 31, 2006
Do we need a separate section for this? It's such a small group of people; I think we should either make a sub-section under the Jewish view or place the paragraph under the 'Other Christians views' section. — Aiden 15:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
This small group of people is growing and increasing in significance. One of my close friends is a mesianic jew, and I have learned a lot about life and tradition from him. He would contribute uniquely to the discussion of Jesus. I think it needs its own section, or at least put it under the Other Christians views to maintain organizational integrity. 64.81.228.110 15:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Strictly speaking all Christians are Messianic Jews. . . . standonbible 18:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
This is tangential, but I've never heard Jews who convert to Catholicism described as "Messianic Jews". The term seems to me to very strongly connote a very particular type - Jewish converts to Evangelical Christianity - "Jews for Jesus" and so forth. The article on Messianic Judaism supports this view. A Jew who converted to Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy or a mainline Protestant Church would not normally be seen as a "Messianic Jew," as far as I'm aware. john k 17:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that Christology should be added to the topics related to Jesus box that accompanies the Jesus tag. Does anyone object? If not, could someone add it? Slrubenstein | Talk 13:41, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
This article has just been removed from the Article Improvement Drive. I'd like to thank everyone who has helped out over the last few weeks; of course, they are still some pending tasks /to do. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 17:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)