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The material on Jesus' burial seems potentially problematic to me. Two points:
At the least, I think we should mention that it is Joseph of Arimathea who buried Jesus, and add a note that John mentions that Nicodemus, as well, was involved. I also think the sentence about crucifixion practices probably ought to be modified. john k 22:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that the section on the Gospel account stick as closely to the Gospel account as possible - and that there be a new section on "elements of the Gospel account that have led to discussion and debate among theologians and historians" with links to articles covering different views. In such a section it would be perfectly appropriate that many historians have called attention to the fact that Jesus's crucifixion was unexceptional, while many theologians have argued that it was exceptional 9and then provide the links ...) Slrubenstein | Talk 22:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
The Gospel accounts - with contradictions and gaps - is the primary source material. people who interpret them literally, metaphorically, allegorically, use them as the basis for competing theologies, or subject them to critical historical scrutiny, all refer to them. We will achieve NPOV by representing all of these diverse religious, literary, and historical readings. But for any of them to make sense there has to be a presentation of the Gospel account. It is the inclusion of the Gospel account that makes the inclusion of those diverse views in an understandable form possible. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
- Of course, but what happens is people keep trying to isolate the sections, as with the recent (& past) removal of historical context from the gospel section -- JimWae 00:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new analysis or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas that serves to advance a position.
Its ok to quote the Gospels; its not ok to tell the Gospel story and back up what you say with passages from the Gospels, as this is an interpretive process. This is not what is meant when it says that "source-based research" is allowed. If it was allowed to use primary sources to then tell a story, the entire NOR prohibition would be meaningless. Who would ever need secondary sources? Editors could write their own material from primary sources, which is what you are doing here on the Jesus page when you are telling the reader the Jesus story based on the Gospels. Drogo Underburrow 04:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Particularly what I am objecting to, is the attempt to harmonise the Gospels, and explain them. Its ok to say, 'Luke says in verse X, blah blah blah." if you are literally quoting what Luke says. Its not ok to say "Luke says X, But John says Y, but actually they both are right, they mean Z" Drogo Underburrow 05:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Jim, the problem is not people removing context. Putting context thee violates NPOR. You are concerned with NPOV. They way to comply with both policies is this: make NO synthetic or analytical statements, or explanations or interpretationsi, in the section on "the Gospel account." Put all the historical context you find (rightfully so in my opinion) so important in a linked article on the context and how it is used by historians (e.g.the article on the Cultural and historical background of Jesus) - and put the symbolic or theological context in the article on Christology or however many linked articles we need in order to represent all POVs each ov which have their own reading (and rely on different context, make different interpretations) of the Gospel accounts. Comply with NPOV with multiple linked articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
No. That is engaging in POV forking. Drogo Underburrow 16:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
The POV forking is an issue we addressed here two years ago. It is impossible, given current technology, to include all points of view fully developed in this article. The topic is simply too complex that any such article that is fully NPOR and NPOV compliant and complete will simply be too long. Different points of view must, for ultimately technical reasons, go into other linked articles. The only way we can mitigate about the POV forking problem is this: provide clear links to each article in the body of the article itself (i.e. not just a list of links at the end) along with a very cincise summary or abstract of that linked article. Thus, all POVs will be represented in this article. But virtually none of them will be represented adequately (i.e. holding up to our encyclopedic standards); that has to be i in liked articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
So no view will get more space? There won't be a preferred view dealt with at length in the article? Drogo Underburrow 17:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, my sense is this:
This seems to me the best solution given the complexity of the topic, the sheer number of sources we have and must consult, the sheer number of words written on the topic already in the encyclopedia, and our NPOV policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Drogo, you write, "the Gospels do not tell a single coherent story, and editors will try to make it appear as if they do." and you hit the nail right on theheasd. I agree completely. However, i do not see this as an objection to my "plan" (maybe the "my" should be in quotes - I mean only to signal that I am as much describing the actual state of affair reached through an ad hoc process involving lots of people, as much as proposing my plan). on the contrary, your point is essential. I wrote earlier and repeat (in order to underscore your point) that the section on the gospel account must stringently comply with our NOR policy and must illstrate contradictions and gaps. We need to do two things - i am here making specific proposals and we should either have discussion or a poll, or, if others agree, just do this:
This requires patience and attention but hey, look at all the conflicts we have dealt with. I can't think of an easy plan, but I do think this is workable. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:40, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Which part of any of the following is original research?
All of these have sources - bible & otherwise -- JimWae 18:49, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I thought I was clear and apologize if i was not: the article must be clear that the four canonical gospels sometimes duplicate, sometimes, contradict and sometimes have gaps. Does this satisfy Drogo? We can provide an account of each, but we cannot comment on the significance (we can, esepcially in linked articles, provide accounts of how others comment on the significance). As to JimWae's questionj, it is not original research if sourced. However, in the section "...according to the Gospels" we should use the four canonical Gospels only as sources. If they leave something out - I am repeating for seemingly the hundredth time - we note that the Goseples have gaps and different people (clergy, theologicans, literary critics, historians) have discussed the gaps, filled them in, or conjectured on filling them in, and discussing the significance of the gaps or how they can be filled in in appropriate, linked articles and definitely NOT in a section on the Gospel account. It is NOT - by no stretch of the imagination - a violation of NPOV to say this is what the Gospels say (it is a violation of NPOV to say (1) the gospels are wrong or (2) the gospels are right). Slrubenstein | Talk 19:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Drogo, sure, we expect ALL sources to representa a POV. NPOV policy applies to us editors, not to Mark or Matthew or John. Compliance with NPOV means identifying the POV (for example, by saying "this comes from the Gospel of John") and by provideing multiple points of view (for example, in this section by sayinf "According to Mark ... but according to Luke ..." and then in other sections "X interprets the contradiction between Mark and Luke this way .... y interprets it that way ...." and then by having still more sections that express what a and b are arguing over. Above I spelled out a three point plan. Does it make sense? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:42, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Slr, I know that its perfectly fine for a source to be POV. The POV I was refering to WAS a POV being asserted by the editors when they create a section "according to the Gospels", which implies that the Gospels are one source, and not four. It's a Christian dogma that the Gospels tell one story from different points of view. Its POV pushing to craft the article to support this dogma. If you want to at length quote from the Gospels as primary sources, instead of using secondary sources, you have to treat them as four separate sources, and lumping them all as one in one section inherently sets up the conditions where they will be viewed as telling a single story. Drogo Underburrow 19:53, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Here I believe I and Drogo (and maybe Str1977) are on the same side. I know I disagree, very strongly, with Homsetarmy. First, "they are all telling the same general story, what's the big deal?" Well, you are wrong, they are not telling the same story. What? you ask, How can Sl say that, SL you are wrong! Okay, you say I am wrong, I say you are wrong. This is precisely why we have an NPOV policy. "... they are all telling the same general story" - this is one point of view. It should be represented, but as a point of view. And other points of view must also be represented. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Another thing, Homestarmy says "Well the best way to make it non-OR would be to provide a whole bunch of links to apologetics sites, but I suppose that wouldn't be NPOV, would it? :)" No, this is not the best way, and I do not see what you are smiling about. Our task is to write an encyclopedia. So the best way to make it comply with NOR is to write additional linked articles, each one based on serious research and providing sources, to elaborate on each view - views held by clergy, theologians (and of different religions), literary critics, and historians. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Another thing, Homestarmy writes, "so it would seem to me that both a POV of synthesis and a POV of "there be contradictions, mate!" would both be equally valid to be included in this article" - I think this oversimplifies and misses the point. It is not POV to say that some people interpreet, some people synthesize, and so on. But there are many different interpretations. On this I think we agree. Where I disagree is with two different implications of what you are writing. First, it is not enough simply to include in this article that there are different POVs. Yes, say that, but just to say that would negate our mission as an encyclopedia. We need to research and then elaborate on each significant POV and present it in detail, clearly identifying the POV and providing its context. Second, it is not possible to fully represent each POV in this article. We need linked articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Homes that the four are telling the same general story, albeit with minor differences. However, I see taht this is not uncontroversial. However, what is uncontroversial is that all four report the same event (Jesus' trial) and not four trials of for different Jesuses (not even Rudolf Steiner could think up something like that) and that is what I wanted to state above. Str1977 (smile back) 20:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
My objection to four separate sections on four canonical gospels is two-fold: first, I find it inelegant (a reason I expect Drogo will just dismiss, it is a matter of taste). The second is this: I see a main function of the section NOT as synthesizing an account of Jesus' life, I think we all agree this violates NOR. I see the function as providing the basis for several linked articles that provide accounts of different people's (or groups of people) own accounts of Jesus (God? literary myth? historical revolutionary? historical preacher? Prophet? fraud?). I believe that a major reason there are so many different views is beacause there are duplications, contradictions, and gaps. So a section that provides an account - without judgement or interpretation - of the duplications, contraditictions, and gaps will both justify and introduce all these other articles. One section using all four canonical Gospels will have this effect. four separate sections will not. In short: one section in my mind does not signify unity or coherence. The section is on "the canonical gospels" meaning four books chosen by the Church fathers. These men were well aware of the duplications, contradictions and gaps (why they thought they existed, or what their meaning was, is another matter entirely). The only unity we are suggesting is that by the fourth century these four books were established as premier sources on Jesus' life and teachings, that is all. It makes no necessary claim that they constitute a unified text. For goodness sake, we know that James Joyce wrote Ulysses yet debate whether it is a unified text. Let's call it the four canonical gosepels, explain the meaning of the word canonical, and let the word "four" carry the weight of communicating that we are not talking about "one." Slrubenstein | Talk 20:49, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
The article has direct quotes from Pilate and from Jesus (below). Each gospel gives a variant account of this interchange, and translations of even the same gospel also differ. I do not see that direct quotes are at all appropriate here.
ALL 4 in my Netbible translation have similar but far more enigmatic responses anyway - like "so you have said" -- JimWae 19:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Nothing to do with a situation where all agree on what was said in one language. We have no idea who is supposed to have reported Jesus' words here, and ALL Netbible translations are not so affirmative in response - except perhaps John which, again, is quite different. -- JimWae 01:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Now that the situation has been cooled down a bit, I would like to return to my original question and proposal. Before I do, some comments: I want to start a new section mostly for reasons of organisation since the current one is almost over saturated (that is one of the reasons why I didn't reply to some of the comments, besides the fact that I have been offline for several days). Second I want to resume under which rules this article is supposed to work, Some other users in between have rose similar questions, for example Slrubenstein (sorry for not having answered so far). And finally I want to restrict myself to just one point, since I had the feeling and in particular Dominick misunderstand to a certain extend, my critics.
Then we have to report exactly that, we even are not allowed to state, that the Sanhedrin condemned Jesus because of blasphemy. Similar if ( Matthew 26:63–66) reports that
But don't use the word condemn we have to report that also and finally if Luke ( Luke 23:71) states that the
That might sound nitpicking but it is not. As stated several times, by me and others, the Gospels don't present a unique narration and therefore it is especially important not to hide any kind of disharmony in the context of the arrest/trial/excecution complex since they have and had several implications. (Anti semitism is the saddest of them). So we should not smooth out what is not smooth, so that everybody can make up his/hers own mind. Does everybody agree???
The problematic part is for blasphemy : By that I mean the sentence gives the impression that Jesus war arrested for blasphemy!!!! Does everybody agree? This is my complain and it seems that especially Dominik misunderstood it. The problem is that there are no verses which state that Jesus was arrested for blasphemy. (I have the Gospels in electronic form and I scanned them for the word blasphemy, without success), there simply is neither a verse which states that Jesus was arrested for blasphemy nor a verse from which one could conclude that the priests knew that Jesus had committed blasphemy before the trial. Does everybody agree?? If not could he/she provide the necessary verse? Despite the fact that there is no verse, the sentence seems to build up an argument (not a hypothesis) that Jesus was arrested for blasphemy, alas that argument is invalid, as we see: The argument is based on references to the trial itself and to John. There are a couples of problems with this: While in the trial Jesus was condemned (Mark) or found to be guilty of death (Matthew) for blasphemy (but not Luke), this outcome does not logically imply that he was arrested for blasphemy .
A similar problem concerns ( John 10:33), there is no reference in the trial to it. (I find it striking, that on one hand, John reports several blasphemies of this sort, another is mentioned, before Abraham was I , but then neither does John mentions a trial at all, nor do these sentences appear in the trial. There is only on conclusion: although these verses are correct, they do not serve as a reason for stating that Jesus was arrested for blasphemy. So to make long story short, there are some alternatives.
But if most people will insist in stating a hypothesis, then we should state not only one but several, like
These 3 hypothesis are by the way the standard hypothesis in the literature about the trial. Again, we either simply delete the sentence of why Jesus was arrested or we state some hypothesis. Opinions please? Oub 15:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC):
Re: |Arch O. La: so do I understand you correctly you support to delete the part of the sentence which states that he was arrested for blasphemy? That is ok with me. The question whether it was a trial or an interrogation is also a subject of fierce discussion. Oub 15:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC):
If you think so much discussion is silly, you may want to keep ignoring things. Now, what exactly are we discussing? If we are discussing the second paragraph, then we already settled this: historians say he was executed for sedition, and generally dismiss the charge of blasphemy. Or are we talking about the Gosepel account? If so, I do not thjink we have resolved the larger issue yet which is, what is the function of this section? I think we should leave interpretations and even contextual information out. If we add it in, we need to remember that there are different points of view, including that of theologians, and that of historians, and each group uses different contextual elemetns or claims about context to support their conclusions. Our own conclusions are irrelevant - any synthetic claim on our part is a violation of NOR. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
We should change the title. There is no way that the section called "life and teachings" can comply with NPOV and NOR, for reasons several people spelled out in the lengthy discussion above. I believe the section should be a summary of the canonical gospel accounts, calling attention to duplications, contradictions and gaps, because it is these three elements that provide the basis for almost all interpretations of the Gospels, including those of diverse theologians and secular historians. In this specific case, we should state that different Gospels give different accounts of the arrest and trial, spell out what they all agree on (which is very little), summarize the differences, and leave it at that. Linked articles e.g. on Christology and on the historical Jesus can go into the context (which different points of view define differently) and the meaning. Slrubenstein Talk 15:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Homsetarmy, since no one is proposing injecting a point of view claiming "it is all contradiction" I am not sure what you mean. Oub, I think that in order to justify the specific change you advocate, you have made more general points. And I think these more general points demand a reconsideration of the section as a whole. I do not think I am proposing a major reorganization and revision. i believe I am suggesting two things: first, change the title of the section to reflect better both the current content and the role of the section in the article, and because the implications of the current title, namely, any summary of Jesus' teachings I think would require making interpretive or synthetic claims (or to accommodate all POVs make the article 100 times bigger). Second, a plan for further revising this particular section. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Oub, I have no objection to your proposal and nothing I have written should be taken as an argument against your proposal. I just think that in addition we should address the larger issue - a larger issue you introduced or called attention to at least implicitly, and a larger issue worth addressing. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:08, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Here is proposal for a revision of that section:
I caught this, sorry I didn't respond. I mean the four canonical texts - canonical is exclusively Christian as I mean can literally not metaphorically. I have already stated my rationale, if not in specific application to this question. My rationale has two components: (1)The section should provide the primary source material accepted by the largest and most diverse groups of people. Paul Tillich, Hans Kung, Dominic Crossan, Geza Vermes, and Morton Smith all accept the four canonical Gospels as the primary sources. (2) different points of view make synthetic and interpretive claims by bringing in contextual information. JimWae has pointed this out, although he privileges the contextual information used by historians. I do not think we can privilege any contextual information, as that would violate NPOV. we should present the contextual information used by Paul Tillich, Hans Kung, Dominic Crossan, Geza Vermes, and Morton Smith and others to justify their respective interpretations. For some, this contextual information will include the non-canonical Gospels e.g. of Thomas or Peter. others do not. Now, I do not believe we can include all the contextual information and explain all of the interpretations of Paul Tillich, Hans Kung, Dominic Crossan, Geza Vermes, and Morton Smith let alone the many other clerics, theologians, historians, and others who have interpreted the Gospels or who have made claims about Jesus in this article. we simply do not have the space. We have to do it in linked articles, with abstracts of each one in this article. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, it is just my view. I believe it would make the artivcle more compliant with NOR, and better accommodate NPOV, and I have tried to explain fully my reasoning - I hope others agree. But I am not claiming that this is the consensus, I just hope others see the sense in it. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:41, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreed Slrubenstein | Talk 14:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
How about "differences" instead of "contradictions?" Slrubenstein | Talk 11:59, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 55 | ← | Archive 57 | Archive 58 | Archive 59 | Archive 60 | Archive 61 | → | Archive 65 |
The material on Jesus' burial seems potentially problematic to me. Two points:
At the least, I think we should mention that it is Joseph of Arimathea who buried Jesus, and add a note that John mentions that Nicodemus, as well, was involved. I also think the sentence about crucifixion practices probably ought to be modified. john k 22:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that the section on the Gospel account stick as closely to the Gospel account as possible - and that there be a new section on "elements of the Gospel account that have led to discussion and debate among theologians and historians" with links to articles covering different views. In such a section it would be perfectly appropriate that many historians have called attention to the fact that Jesus's crucifixion was unexceptional, while many theologians have argued that it was exceptional 9and then provide the links ...) Slrubenstein | Talk 22:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
The Gospel accounts - with contradictions and gaps - is the primary source material. people who interpret them literally, metaphorically, allegorically, use them as the basis for competing theologies, or subject them to critical historical scrutiny, all refer to them. We will achieve NPOV by representing all of these diverse religious, literary, and historical readings. But for any of them to make sense there has to be a presentation of the Gospel account. It is the inclusion of the Gospel account that makes the inclusion of those diverse views in an understandable form possible. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
- Of course, but what happens is people keep trying to isolate the sections, as with the recent (& past) removal of historical context from the gospel section -- JimWae 00:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new analysis or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas that serves to advance a position.
Its ok to quote the Gospels; its not ok to tell the Gospel story and back up what you say with passages from the Gospels, as this is an interpretive process. This is not what is meant when it says that "source-based research" is allowed. If it was allowed to use primary sources to then tell a story, the entire NOR prohibition would be meaningless. Who would ever need secondary sources? Editors could write their own material from primary sources, which is what you are doing here on the Jesus page when you are telling the reader the Jesus story based on the Gospels. Drogo Underburrow 04:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Particularly what I am objecting to, is the attempt to harmonise the Gospels, and explain them. Its ok to say, 'Luke says in verse X, blah blah blah." if you are literally quoting what Luke says. Its not ok to say "Luke says X, But John says Y, but actually they both are right, they mean Z" Drogo Underburrow 05:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Jim, the problem is not people removing context. Putting context thee violates NPOR. You are concerned with NPOV. They way to comply with both policies is this: make NO synthetic or analytical statements, or explanations or interpretationsi, in the section on "the Gospel account." Put all the historical context you find (rightfully so in my opinion) so important in a linked article on the context and how it is used by historians (e.g.the article on the Cultural and historical background of Jesus) - and put the symbolic or theological context in the article on Christology or however many linked articles we need in order to represent all POVs each ov which have their own reading (and rely on different context, make different interpretations) of the Gospel accounts. Comply with NPOV with multiple linked articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
No. That is engaging in POV forking. Drogo Underburrow 16:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
The POV forking is an issue we addressed here two years ago. It is impossible, given current technology, to include all points of view fully developed in this article. The topic is simply too complex that any such article that is fully NPOR and NPOV compliant and complete will simply be too long. Different points of view must, for ultimately technical reasons, go into other linked articles. The only way we can mitigate about the POV forking problem is this: provide clear links to each article in the body of the article itself (i.e. not just a list of links at the end) along with a very cincise summary or abstract of that linked article. Thus, all POVs will be represented in this article. But virtually none of them will be represented adequately (i.e. holding up to our encyclopedic standards); that has to be i in liked articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
So no view will get more space? There won't be a preferred view dealt with at length in the article? Drogo Underburrow 17:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, my sense is this:
This seems to me the best solution given the complexity of the topic, the sheer number of sources we have and must consult, the sheer number of words written on the topic already in the encyclopedia, and our NPOV policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Drogo, you write, "the Gospels do not tell a single coherent story, and editors will try to make it appear as if they do." and you hit the nail right on theheasd. I agree completely. However, i do not see this as an objection to my "plan" (maybe the "my" should be in quotes - I mean only to signal that I am as much describing the actual state of affair reached through an ad hoc process involving lots of people, as much as proposing my plan). on the contrary, your point is essential. I wrote earlier and repeat (in order to underscore your point) that the section on the gospel account must stringently comply with our NOR policy and must illstrate contradictions and gaps. We need to do two things - i am here making specific proposals and we should either have discussion or a poll, or, if others agree, just do this:
This requires patience and attention but hey, look at all the conflicts we have dealt with. I can't think of an easy plan, but I do think this is workable. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:40, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Which part of any of the following is original research?
All of these have sources - bible & otherwise -- JimWae 18:49, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I thought I was clear and apologize if i was not: the article must be clear that the four canonical gospels sometimes duplicate, sometimes, contradict and sometimes have gaps. Does this satisfy Drogo? We can provide an account of each, but we cannot comment on the significance (we can, esepcially in linked articles, provide accounts of how others comment on the significance). As to JimWae's questionj, it is not original research if sourced. However, in the section "...according to the Gospels" we should use the four canonical Gospels only as sources. If they leave something out - I am repeating for seemingly the hundredth time - we note that the Goseples have gaps and different people (clergy, theologicans, literary critics, historians) have discussed the gaps, filled them in, or conjectured on filling them in, and discussing the significance of the gaps or how they can be filled in in appropriate, linked articles and definitely NOT in a section on the Gospel account. It is NOT - by no stretch of the imagination - a violation of NPOV to say this is what the Gospels say (it is a violation of NPOV to say (1) the gospels are wrong or (2) the gospels are right). Slrubenstein | Talk 19:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Drogo, sure, we expect ALL sources to representa a POV. NPOV policy applies to us editors, not to Mark or Matthew or John. Compliance with NPOV means identifying the POV (for example, by saying "this comes from the Gospel of John") and by provideing multiple points of view (for example, in this section by sayinf "According to Mark ... but according to Luke ..." and then in other sections "X interprets the contradiction between Mark and Luke this way .... y interprets it that way ...." and then by having still more sections that express what a and b are arguing over. Above I spelled out a three point plan. Does it make sense? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:42, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Slr, I know that its perfectly fine for a source to be POV. The POV I was refering to WAS a POV being asserted by the editors when they create a section "according to the Gospels", which implies that the Gospels are one source, and not four. It's a Christian dogma that the Gospels tell one story from different points of view. Its POV pushing to craft the article to support this dogma. If you want to at length quote from the Gospels as primary sources, instead of using secondary sources, you have to treat them as four separate sources, and lumping them all as one in one section inherently sets up the conditions where they will be viewed as telling a single story. Drogo Underburrow 19:53, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Here I believe I and Drogo (and maybe Str1977) are on the same side. I know I disagree, very strongly, with Homsetarmy. First, "they are all telling the same general story, what's the big deal?" Well, you are wrong, they are not telling the same story. What? you ask, How can Sl say that, SL you are wrong! Okay, you say I am wrong, I say you are wrong. This is precisely why we have an NPOV policy. "... they are all telling the same general story" - this is one point of view. It should be represented, but as a point of view. And other points of view must also be represented. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Another thing, Homestarmy says "Well the best way to make it non-OR would be to provide a whole bunch of links to apologetics sites, but I suppose that wouldn't be NPOV, would it? :)" No, this is not the best way, and I do not see what you are smiling about. Our task is to write an encyclopedia. So the best way to make it comply with NOR is to write additional linked articles, each one based on serious research and providing sources, to elaborate on each view - views held by clergy, theologians (and of different religions), literary critics, and historians. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Another thing, Homestarmy writes, "so it would seem to me that both a POV of synthesis and a POV of "there be contradictions, mate!" would both be equally valid to be included in this article" - I think this oversimplifies and misses the point. It is not POV to say that some people interpreet, some people synthesize, and so on. But there are many different interpretations. On this I think we agree. Where I disagree is with two different implications of what you are writing. First, it is not enough simply to include in this article that there are different POVs. Yes, say that, but just to say that would negate our mission as an encyclopedia. We need to research and then elaborate on each significant POV and present it in detail, clearly identifying the POV and providing its context. Second, it is not possible to fully represent each POV in this article. We need linked articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Homes that the four are telling the same general story, albeit with minor differences. However, I see taht this is not uncontroversial. However, what is uncontroversial is that all four report the same event (Jesus' trial) and not four trials of for different Jesuses (not even Rudolf Steiner could think up something like that) and that is what I wanted to state above. Str1977 (smile back) 20:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
My objection to four separate sections on four canonical gospels is two-fold: first, I find it inelegant (a reason I expect Drogo will just dismiss, it is a matter of taste). The second is this: I see a main function of the section NOT as synthesizing an account of Jesus' life, I think we all agree this violates NOR. I see the function as providing the basis for several linked articles that provide accounts of different people's (or groups of people) own accounts of Jesus (God? literary myth? historical revolutionary? historical preacher? Prophet? fraud?). I believe that a major reason there are so many different views is beacause there are duplications, contradictions, and gaps. So a section that provides an account - without judgement or interpretation - of the duplications, contraditictions, and gaps will both justify and introduce all these other articles. One section using all four canonical Gospels will have this effect. four separate sections will not. In short: one section in my mind does not signify unity or coherence. The section is on "the canonical gospels" meaning four books chosen by the Church fathers. These men were well aware of the duplications, contradictions and gaps (why they thought they existed, or what their meaning was, is another matter entirely). The only unity we are suggesting is that by the fourth century these four books were established as premier sources on Jesus' life and teachings, that is all. It makes no necessary claim that they constitute a unified text. For goodness sake, we know that James Joyce wrote Ulysses yet debate whether it is a unified text. Let's call it the four canonical gosepels, explain the meaning of the word canonical, and let the word "four" carry the weight of communicating that we are not talking about "one." Slrubenstein | Talk 20:49, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
The article has direct quotes from Pilate and from Jesus (below). Each gospel gives a variant account of this interchange, and translations of even the same gospel also differ. I do not see that direct quotes are at all appropriate here.
ALL 4 in my Netbible translation have similar but far more enigmatic responses anyway - like "so you have said" -- JimWae 19:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Nothing to do with a situation where all agree on what was said in one language. We have no idea who is supposed to have reported Jesus' words here, and ALL Netbible translations are not so affirmative in response - except perhaps John which, again, is quite different. -- JimWae 01:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Now that the situation has been cooled down a bit, I would like to return to my original question and proposal. Before I do, some comments: I want to start a new section mostly for reasons of organisation since the current one is almost over saturated (that is one of the reasons why I didn't reply to some of the comments, besides the fact that I have been offline for several days). Second I want to resume under which rules this article is supposed to work, Some other users in between have rose similar questions, for example Slrubenstein (sorry for not having answered so far). And finally I want to restrict myself to just one point, since I had the feeling and in particular Dominick misunderstand to a certain extend, my critics.
Then we have to report exactly that, we even are not allowed to state, that the Sanhedrin condemned Jesus because of blasphemy. Similar if ( Matthew 26:63–66) reports that
But don't use the word condemn we have to report that also and finally if Luke ( Luke 23:71) states that the
That might sound nitpicking but it is not. As stated several times, by me and others, the Gospels don't present a unique narration and therefore it is especially important not to hide any kind of disharmony in the context of the arrest/trial/excecution complex since they have and had several implications. (Anti semitism is the saddest of them). So we should not smooth out what is not smooth, so that everybody can make up his/hers own mind. Does everybody agree???
The problematic part is for blasphemy : By that I mean the sentence gives the impression that Jesus war arrested for blasphemy!!!! Does everybody agree? This is my complain and it seems that especially Dominik misunderstood it. The problem is that there are no verses which state that Jesus was arrested for blasphemy. (I have the Gospels in electronic form and I scanned them for the word blasphemy, without success), there simply is neither a verse which states that Jesus was arrested for blasphemy nor a verse from which one could conclude that the priests knew that Jesus had committed blasphemy before the trial. Does everybody agree?? If not could he/she provide the necessary verse? Despite the fact that there is no verse, the sentence seems to build up an argument (not a hypothesis) that Jesus was arrested for blasphemy, alas that argument is invalid, as we see: The argument is based on references to the trial itself and to John. There are a couples of problems with this: While in the trial Jesus was condemned (Mark) or found to be guilty of death (Matthew) for blasphemy (but not Luke), this outcome does not logically imply that he was arrested for blasphemy .
A similar problem concerns ( John 10:33), there is no reference in the trial to it. (I find it striking, that on one hand, John reports several blasphemies of this sort, another is mentioned, before Abraham was I , but then neither does John mentions a trial at all, nor do these sentences appear in the trial. There is only on conclusion: although these verses are correct, they do not serve as a reason for stating that Jesus was arrested for blasphemy. So to make long story short, there are some alternatives.
But if most people will insist in stating a hypothesis, then we should state not only one but several, like
These 3 hypothesis are by the way the standard hypothesis in the literature about the trial. Again, we either simply delete the sentence of why Jesus was arrested or we state some hypothesis. Opinions please? Oub 15:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC):
Re: |Arch O. La: so do I understand you correctly you support to delete the part of the sentence which states that he was arrested for blasphemy? That is ok with me. The question whether it was a trial or an interrogation is also a subject of fierce discussion. Oub 15:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC):
If you think so much discussion is silly, you may want to keep ignoring things. Now, what exactly are we discussing? If we are discussing the second paragraph, then we already settled this: historians say he was executed for sedition, and generally dismiss the charge of blasphemy. Or are we talking about the Gosepel account? If so, I do not thjink we have resolved the larger issue yet which is, what is the function of this section? I think we should leave interpretations and even contextual information out. If we add it in, we need to remember that there are different points of view, including that of theologians, and that of historians, and each group uses different contextual elemetns or claims about context to support their conclusions. Our own conclusions are irrelevant - any synthetic claim on our part is a violation of NOR. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
We should change the title. There is no way that the section called "life and teachings" can comply with NPOV and NOR, for reasons several people spelled out in the lengthy discussion above. I believe the section should be a summary of the canonical gospel accounts, calling attention to duplications, contradictions and gaps, because it is these three elements that provide the basis for almost all interpretations of the Gospels, including those of diverse theologians and secular historians. In this specific case, we should state that different Gospels give different accounts of the arrest and trial, spell out what they all agree on (which is very little), summarize the differences, and leave it at that. Linked articles e.g. on Christology and on the historical Jesus can go into the context (which different points of view define differently) and the meaning. Slrubenstein Talk 15:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Homsetarmy, since no one is proposing injecting a point of view claiming "it is all contradiction" I am not sure what you mean. Oub, I think that in order to justify the specific change you advocate, you have made more general points. And I think these more general points demand a reconsideration of the section as a whole. I do not think I am proposing a major reorganization and revision. i believe I am suggesting two things: first, change the title of the section to reflect better both the current content and the role of the section in the article, and because the implications of the current title, namely, any summary of Jesus' teachings I think would require making interpretive or synthetic claims (or to accommodate all POVs make the article 100 times bigger). Second, a plan for further revising this particular section. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Oub, I have no objection to your proposal and nothing I have written should be taken as an argument against your proposal. I just think that in addition we should address the larger issue - a larger issue you introduced or called attention to at least implicitly, and a larger issue worth addressing. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:08, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Here is proposal for a revision of that section:
I caught this, sorry I didn't respond. I mean the four canonical texts - canonical is exclusively Christian as I mean can literally not metaphorically. I have already stated my rationale, if not in specific application to this question. My rationale has two components: (1)The section should provide the primary source material accepted by the largest and most diverse groups of people. Paul Tillich, Hans Kung, Dominic Crossan, Geza Vermes, and Morton Smith all accept the four canonical Gospels as the primary sources. (2) different points of view make synthetic and interpretive claims by bringing in contextual information. JimWae has pointed this out, although he privileges the contextual information used by historians. I do not think we can privilege any contextual information, as that would violate NPOV. we should present the contextual information used by Paul Tillich, Hans Kung, Dominic Crossan, Geza Vermes, and Morton Smith and others to justify their respective interpretations. For some, this contextual information will include the non-canonical Gospels e.g. of Thomas or Peter. others do not. Now, I do not believe we can include all the contextual information and explain all of the interpretations of Paul Tillich, Hans Kung, Dominic Crossan, Geza Vermes, and Morton Smith let alone the many other clerics, theologians, historians, and others who have interpreted the Gospels or who have made claims about Jesus in this article. we simply do not have the space. We have to do it in linked articles, with abstracts of each one in this article. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, it is just my view. I believe it would make the artivcle more compliant with NOR, and better accommodate NPOV, and I have tried to explain fully my reasoning - I hope others agree. But I am not claiming that this is the consensus, I just hope others see the sense in it. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:41, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreed Slrubenstein | Talk 14:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
How about "differences" instead of "contradictions?" Slrubenstein | Talk 11:59, 21 May 2006 (UTC)