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As some of you may know, this article was originally titled "Jesus Christ"—evidence of the fact that many consider the term Christ as a surname, or at the very least a term that is associated with Jesus' name rather than a term asserting Jesus as a Messiah. The branding of Jesus as "Jesus Christ" on all kinds of secular media and even within Jewish or other non-Christian communities asserts this fact. Recently, I made an alteration in the first paragraph that addressed this issue. I believe it should be placed to casually and nonchalantly inform the general public (perhaps even those who typed "Jesus Christ" and were redirected to Jesus) that "Christ" is not a surname or other permanent fixture, but is in fact a title asserting the divinity of Jesus. User:Aiden reverted my edits and I'm certainly not going to re-revert until there is discussion about my proposal. Here is the requested alteration (you can suggest grammatical changes to it if you like)
Current:
Proposal:
Please discuss. — CRAZY` (IN)` SANE 04:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's really true that "Christ" is not a name. It obviously originated as a title, but as early as Tacitus' time, it was being used as a surname (he knows Jesus only as "Christ," which he apparently thinks is a name). Furthermore, the term "Christian" clearly means "followers of an individual named Jesus Christ," and not "believers in the existence of an annointed one." While Christ originally was a title, I think it pretty quickly gained all the attributes of a name. It was not a name which Jesus was known by in life, and it is a name which imputes to Jesus certain characteristics (that he is the Messiah, most notably), but that doesn't mean it's not a name. john k 16:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Christianous could mean Messianics as well as followers of the Christ/Messiah. Then there is the name Chrestus. 209.78.18.233 21:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the recent category addition which I think is inappropriate. We have no evidence that when Jesus was alife he and his followers were considered a "cult" in the contemporary sense of the word. That there are Christian cults today I do not doubt, but they ar enot led by Jesus. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:49, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The amount of vandalism going on is seriously outrageous. This is why the article should not have been unprotected, or better yet, only registered users should be able to edit Wikipedia. — Aiden 22:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't this article in the islam series but only in the christianity series? Jesus is one of the most important figures in the islam. I think that's very biased. -- 62.251.90.73 13:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Jesus is a jew did you know that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.10.123.209 ( talk • contribs)
Some responses:
It seems some discussion is needed on what to include or exclude from this section. I have taken it to exclude events not presented in gospels, but rather in other non-canonical works, Book of Mormon, etc. Should it include ONLY information in the gospels, or should it be BASED on events covered in the gospels, with well supported context added and sourced? I would rather read one article that NPOV presented the events, rather than have to hunt for several articles and then sort out the POV in each one. While it may not be possible to present every POV in this article, I see no down side to short insertions of context to make whatever is here more informative. Some have said space is an issue - I say that without context, much of the text (if it is to be ONLY what is in the gospels) can be omitted & instead have links to the articles on gospel views. -- JimWae 20:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
in what the hell was jesus was he black or muslim or just a plain jew looker tell me-- 206.176.124.227 15:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps it needs another page, but some mention of Jesus' sexual orientation ought to be made. There seem to be four major view points on the subject:
1. He was heterosexual, possibly married and had childen
2. He was homosexual, as evidenced by living with men and various quotes in the bible (see link below)
3. He was bisexual
4. He was not remantically involved with anyone (seemingly unlikely)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jegay.htm has some basic info. I feel this is an important, if controversial topic and deserves mention.
Mojo-chan
17:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Move them to other articles. Skinnyweed 16:44, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
How come the cross is black in all the articles about Christianity and about this one about Jesus? Dot Bitch
Or was Joseph, " God in disguise"? In either case we should mention it in the article.-- Greasysteve13 06:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Jews do not consider a child born out of wedlock illegitimate. Not now, not then. It would therefore be inaccurate to suggest that it is possible he "was" illegitimate. It is possible he had a human father not married to his mother. That does not make him illegitimate. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Illegitimacy%20of%20Jesus%22
"Illegitimate" in this context is just an English word that means "born out of wedlock." I don't understand how Jewish beliefs come into it at all. john k 18:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Which is to say - Jewish belief cannot negate the English language. If Jesus was "born out of wedlock," then he was also "illegitimate," because the two terms are synonymous. john k 18:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Raymond E. Brown, Birth of the Messiah, Appendix V, pg 534-542 The Charge of Illegitimacy
Origen Contra Celsus 1.32: "But let us now return to where the Jew is introduced, speaking of the mother of Jesus, and saying that "when she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera;""
Gospel of Thomas 105 Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."
Jewish Encyclopedia: Jesus of Nazareth "Birth of Jesus. The Jews, who are represented as inimical to Jesus in the canonical Gospels also, took him to be legitimate and born in an entirely natural manner. A contrary statement as to their attitude is expressed for the first time in the "Acts of Pilate" ("Gospel of Nicodemus," ed. Thilo, in "Codex Apoc. Novi Testamenti," i. 526, Leipsic, 1832; comp. Origen, "Contra Celsum," i. 28). Celsus makes the same statement in another passage, where he refers even to a written source (ἀναγέγραπται), adding that the seducer was a soldier by the name of Panthera (l.c. i. 32). The name "Panthera" occurs here for the first time; two centuries later it occurs in Epiphanius ("Hæres." lxxviii. 7), who ascribes the surname "Panther" to Jacob, an ancestor of Jesus; and John of Damascus ("De Orthod. Fide." iv., § 15) includes the names "Panther" and "Barpanther" in the genealogy of Mary. It is certain, in any case, that the rabbinical sources also regard Jesus as the "son of Pandera" (), although it is noteworthy that he is called also "Ben Sṭada" () (Shab. 104b; Sanh. 67a). It appears from this passage that, aside from Pandera and Sṭada, the couple Pappus b. Judah and Miriam the hairdresser were taken to be the parents of Jesus. Pappus has nothing to do with the story of Jesus, and was only connected with it because his wife happened to be called "Miriam" (= "Mary"), and was known to be an adulteress. The one statement in which all these confused legends agree is that relating to the birth of Jesus. Although this is ascribed only to the Jews, even in Celsus, the Jews need not necessarily be regarded as its authors, for it is possible that it originated among heretics inimical to Jesus, as the Ophites and Cainites, of whom Origen says "they uttered such hateful accusations against Jesus as Celsus himself did" ("Contra Celsum," iii. 13). It is probable, furthermore, that the accusation of illegitimacy was not originally considered so serious; it was ascribed to the most prominent personages, and is a standing motive in folk-lore (Krauss, "Leben Jesu," p. 214). The incident of Jesus concerning the dispute with the Scribes was copied by the rabbinical sources (Kallah 18b [ed. Venice, 1528, fol. 41c]; comp. N. Coronel, "Comment. Quinque," p. 3b, Vienna, 1864, and "Batte Midrashot," ed. Wertheimer, iii. 23, Jerusalem, 1895). All the "Toledot" editions contain a similar story of a dispute which Jesus carried on with the Scribes, who, on the ground of that dispute, declared him to be a bastard. Analogous to this story are numerous tales of predictions by precocious boys." Pericope Adulteræ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.201.25.231 ( talk • contribs)
Something tells me this might just be an attempt to get the phrase "Jesus was a bastard" into the article. -- Lord Deskana Dark Lord of the Sith 13:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to ask in all ignorance: why is this article Jesus, and not Jesus Christ? Stevage 09:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 55 | Archive 56 | Archive 57 | Archive 58 | Archive 59 | Archive 60 | → | Archive 65 |
As some of you may know, this article was originally titled "Jesus Christ"—evidence of the fact that many consider the term Christ as a surname, or at the very least a term that is associated with Jesus' name rather than a term asserting Jesus as a Messiah. The branding of Jesus as "Jesus Christ" on all kinds of secular media and even within Jewish or other non-Christian communities asserts this fact. Recently, I made an alteration in the first paragraph that addressed this issue. I believe it should be placed to casually and nonchalantly inform the general public (perhaps even those who typed "Jesus Christ" and were redirected to Jesus) that "Christ" is not a surname or other permanent fixture, but is in fact a title asserting the divinity of Jesus. User:Aiden reverted my edits and I'm certainly not going to re-revert until there is discussion about my proposal. Here is the requested alteration (you can suggest grammatical changes to it if you like)
Current:
Proposal:
Please discuss. — CRAZY` (IN)` SANE 04:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's really true that "Christ" is not a name. It obviously originated as a title, but as early as Tacitus' time, it was being used as a surname (he knows Jesus only as "Christ," which he apparently thinks is a name). Furthermore, the term "Christian" clearly means "followers of an individual named Jesus Christ," and not "believers in the existence of an annointed one." While Christ originally was a title, I think it pretty quickly gained all the attributes of a name. It was not a name which Jesus was known by in life, and it is a name which imputes to Jesus certain characteristics (that he is the Messiah, most notably), but that doesn't mean it's not a name. john k 16:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Christianous could mean Messianics as well as followers of the Christ/Messiah. Then there is the name Chrestus. 209.78.18.233 21:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the recent category addition which I think is inappropriate. We have no evidence that when Jesus was alife he and his followers were considered a "cult" in the contemporary sense of the word. That there are Christian cults today I do not doubt, but they ar enot led by Jesus. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:49, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The amount of vandalism going on is seriously outrageous. This is why the article should not have been unprotected, or better yet, only registered users should be able to edit Wikipedia. — Aiden 22:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't this article in the islam series but only in the christianity series? Jesus is one of the most important figures in the islam. I think that's very biased. -- 62.251.90.73 13:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Jesus is a jew did you know that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.10.123.209 ( talk • contribs)
Some responses:
It seems some discussion is needed on what to include or exclude from this section. I have taken it to exclude events not presented in gospels, but rather in other non-canonical works, Book of Mormon, etc. Should it include ONLY information in the gospels, or should it be BASED on events covered in the gospels, with well supported context added and sourced? I would rather read one article that NPOV presented the events, rather than have to hunt for several articles and then sort out the POV in each one. While it may not be possible to present every POV in this article, I see no down side to short insertions of context to make whatever is here more informative. Some have said space is an issue - I say that without context, much of the text (if it is to be ONLY what is in the gospels) can be omitted & instead have links to the articles on gospel views. -- JimWae 20:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
in what the hell was jesus was he black or muslim or just a plain jew looker tell me-- 206.176.124.227 15:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps it needs another page, but some mention of Jesus' sexual orientation ought to be made. There seem to be four major view points on the subject:
1. He was heterosexual, possibly married and had childen
2. He was homosexual, as evidenced by living with men and various quotes in the bible (see link below)
3. He was bisexual
4. He was not remantically involved with anyone (seemingly unlikely)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jegay.htm has some basic info. I feel this is an important, if controversial topic and deserves mention.
Mojo-chan
17:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Move them to other articles. Skinnyweed 16:44, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
How come the cross is black in all the articles about Christianity and about this one about Jesus? Dot Bitch
Or was Joseph, " God in disguise"? In either case we should mention it in the article.-- Greasysteve13 06:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Jews do not consider a child born out of wedlock illegitimate. Not now, not then. It would therefore be inaccurate to suggest that it is possible he "was" illegitimate. It is possible he had a human father not married to his mother. That does not make him illegitimate. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Illegitimacy%20of%20Jesus%22
"Illegitimate" in this context is just an English word that means "born out of wedlock." I don't understand how Jewish beliefs come into it at all. john k 18:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Which is to say - Jewish belief cannot negate the English language. If Jesus was "born out of wedlock," then he was also "illegitimate," because the two terms are synonymous. john k 18:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Raymond E. Brown, Birth of the Messiah, Appendix V, pg 534-542 The Charge of Illegitimacy
Origen Contra Celsus 1.32: "But let us now return to where the Jew is introduced, speaking of the mother of Jesus, and saying that "when she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera;""
Gospel of Thomas 105 Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."
Jewish Encyclopedia: Jesus of Nazareth "Birth of Jesus. The Jews, who are represented as inimical to Jesus in the canonical Gospels also, took him to be legitimate and born in an entirely natural manner. A contrary statement as to their attitude is expressed for the first time in the "Acts of Pilate" ("Gospel of Nicodemus," ed. Thilo, in "Codex Apoc. Novi Testamenti," i. 526, Leipsic, 1832; comp. Origen, "Contra Celsum," i. 28). Celsus makes the same statement in another passage, where he refers even to a written source (ἀναγέγραπται), adding that the seducer was a soldier by the name of Panthera (l.c. i. 32). The name "Panthera" occurs here for the first time; two centuries later it occurs in Epiphanius ("Hæres." lxxviii. 7), who ascribes the surname "Panther" to Jacob, an ancestor of Jesus; and John of Damascus ("De Orthod. Fide." iv., § 15) includes the names "Panther" and "Barpanther" in the genealogy of Mary. It is certain, in any case, that the rabbinical sources also regard Jesus as the "son of Pandera" (), although it is noteworthy that he is called also "Ben Sṭada" () (Shab. 104b; Sanh. 67a). It appears from this passage that, aside from Pandera and Sṭada, the couple Pappus b. Judah and Miriam the hairdresser were taken to be the parents of Jesus. Pappus has nothing to do with the story of Jesus, and was only connected with it because his wife happened to be called "Miriam" (= "Mary"), and was known to be an adulteress. The one statement in which all these confused legends agree is that relating to the birth of Jesus. Although this is ascribed only to the Jews, even in Celsus, the Jews need not necessarily be regarded as its authors, for it is possible that it originated among heretics inimical to Jesus, as the Ophites and Cainites, of whom Origen says "they uttered such hateful accusations against Jesus as Celsus himself did" ("Contra Celsum," iii. 13). It is probable, furthermore, that the accusation of illegitimacy was not originally considered so serious; it was ascribed to the most prominent personages, and is a standing motive in folk-lore (Krauss, "Leben Jesu," p. 214). The incident of Jesus concerning the dispute with the Scribes was copied by the rabbinical sources (Kallah 18b [ed. Venice, 1528, fol. 41c]; comp. N. Coronel, "Comment. Quinque," p. 3b, Vienna, 1864, and "Batte Midrashot," ed. Wertheimer, iii. 23, Jerusalem, 1895). All the "Toledot" editions contain a similar story of a dispute which Jesus carried on with the Scribes, who, on the ground of that dispute, declared him to be a bastard. Analogous to this story are numerous tales of predictions by precocious boys." Pericope Adulteræ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.201.25.231 ( talk • contribs)
Something tells me this might just be an attempt to get the phrase "Jesus was a bastard" into the article. -- Lord Deskana Dark Lord of the Sith 13:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to ask in all ignorance: why is this article Jesus, and not Jesus Christ? Stevage 09:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)