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Where's the neutral evidence of historical Jesus and why does this article depict biblical data of Jesus as more or less historically accurate? Why isn't there a seperate Jesus (Bible) or Jesus (mythology) article and let this main article concentrate on historical facts of his life and deeds...if any? - G3, 16:40, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Jesus (8-2 BC/BCE– 29-36 AD/CE),[1] also known as Jesus of Nazareth, is the central figure of Christianity and Christian mythology.
to
Jesus (8-2 BC/BCE– 29-36 AD/CE),[1] also known as Jesus of Nazareth, is the central figure of Christianity and the Christian worldview.
Why? Because to use the word " mythology" comes from the word "myth" which means passed down by oral tradition. This is simply untrue in reference to Jesus, for his teachings were passed down via manuscripts. Mythology is one sided, and completely opposed to the neutrality that has made Wiki so great. The article itself is not the place to discuss whether or not Jesus lived. If we leave the word mythology, we do a drastic and unfortunate disservice to our readers. If we need to link something, link to [[Christian worldview]
Myth can be written as well. Please read up on your definitions and your anthropology. If you even read the christian mythology article you will see that there is both biblical myth and folk myth. Please stop misrepresenting words and positions. from the christian mythology article:
Christian mythology is a body of stories that explains or symbolizes Christian beliefs. A Christian myth is a religious story that Christians consider to have deep explanatory or symbolic significance. Christian mythology can also be taken to refer to the entire mythos surrounding the Christian religious system, including the various narratives of both the Old and New Testaments.
I linked it directly to the Christian mythology article, precluding it from one sidedness, this does not at all imply jesus was a mythological figure and didn't live, it merely points to the fact that jesus is central to the christian mythology, not that he was a myth himself, please read the sentence before copy pasting and being critical. Solidusspriggan 02:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
it is a compound entry "christian mythology", you cannot simply remove one part of it and mix things up as you see fit. If you think Jesus isn't an integral part of christian mythology I suggest you read either the article on christian mythology, or the new testament (what I think many would consider one of the most appropriate sources of information on jesus. If you feel it is necessary then link to Christian worldview as well!
FURTHERMORE, DO NOT DELETE MY COMMENTS!!! Solidusspriggan 04:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I waited 24 hours before making these proposed changes, but the community made them for me in support of removing the word "mythology".
I can't spot the diff, but it looks like somebody changed the intro to put in "Christian Mythology" what ever that means. Wouldn't being the central figure of Christianity sort of make saying the "Center of Christian Mythology" redundant? And when did that neutrality tag appear, who wants to debate whether the article is neutral or not? Homestarmy 03:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that there is no direct link to Christian mythology in the article, it is only in the "see also" section which i think is insufficient, I came here to find out about the centrality of jesus in christian myth and lore and found it exceedingly difficult to locate the information. Beyond that I think it is not redundant but only natural because other articles about various gods and prophets mention their relation to the mythology very early in the intro to that article.
The one who added the neutrality tag wrote:
"Because to use the word " mythology" comes from the word "myth" which means passed down by oral tradition. This is simply untrue in reference to Jesus, for his teachings were passed down via manuscripts. Mythology is one sided, and completely opposed to the neutrality that has made Wiki so great. The article itself is not the place to discuss whether or not Jesus lived. If we leave the word mythology, we do a drastic and unfortunate disservice to our readers. If we need to link something, link to [[Christian worldview]"
I wrote: Myth can be written as well. Please read up on your definitions and your anthropology. If you even read the Christian mythology article you will see that there is both biblical myth and folk myth. Please stop misrepresenting words and positions. from the christian mythology article:
Christian mythology is a body of stories that explains or symbolizes Christian beliefs. A Christian myth is a religious story that Christians consider to have deep explanatory or symbolic significance. Christian mythology can also be taken to refer to the entire mythos surrounding the Christian religious system, including the various narratives of both the Old and New Testaments.
I linked it directly to the Christian mythology article, precluding it from one sidedness, this does not at all imply jesus was a mythological figure and didn't live, it merely points to the fact that jesus is central to the christian mythology, not that he was a myth himself, please read the sentence before copy pasting and being critical.
it is a compound entry "christian mythology", you cannot simply remove one part of it and mix things up as you see fit. If you think Jesus isn't an integral part of christian mythology your are sorely mistaken, I suggest you read either the article on christian mythology, or the new testament (what I think many would consider one of the most appropriate sources of information on jesus. If you feel it is necessary then link to Christian worldview as well! Solidusspriggan 21:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The Christian Mythology article is full of weasel words, and refers mainly to stories about the "saints". Jesus, therefore, is not the central character of these stories. That is why comments on Christian Mythology do not belong in this article. ross nixon 01:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Didn't see the debate already going on here; I would suggest commentary be moved here from the pink "to-do list" section at the top. Jesus is clearly the "central figure" in Christian mythology (which includes the vast body of folktales and traditions that have grown up around Christian belief and practice over the last two millennia, but which have no solid scriptural basis). Attempts to deny this seem to be based in the mistaken notion that "admitting" Christianity has a mythology somehow weakens its claim to Truth. JEREMY 01:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Silly. All articles are "poin of view based," wnich is why all articles mst comply with NPOV. Anonymous user, IMO you need to learnabout what an encyclopedia is in gneral, and what Wikipedia ia in particular. I urge you to read the five pillars,epecially our NPOV and NOR policies. Then, you can come back and express your "O," and perhaps someone will pay attntion. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Silly. "Trusting on one unveriafable source to tell the truth is not a NPOV" is a non-sequitor. First, this article does not tell the truth, it does not claim to tell the truth, Wikipedia is not concerned with telling the truth I told you to read our NPOV policy. Until you do, you comments are just ignorant. Second, this aticle does not tust one unveifiable source. First, all sources used here are verifiable Read our verifiability policy, until you do your commentsae ignorant. Second, this article uses many, many souces, just look at the bibliogaphy. Your comment is simply gibberish. I suggest we ignore these non-seqtor, off-point, unconstructive comments until it is clea that the anonymous commenter knows what s/he is talking about. For starts, read our policies so you understand what we ae doing, what we ae trying to do, here. PS. DO not claim that I am insulting you. Until you bother to read our NPOV and NOR and Verifiability policies, you are just wilfully wasting ou time and insulting us. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
So is "G3" suggesting that we replace the alleged POV of the article with his own POV (which of course is the only factual, accurate and verifiable one)? Not very consistant. In fact, as Slrubenstein indicated, WP:NPOV means representing all relevant POVs with due weight given to each (whether one agrees with them or not) — not attempting to reach some ideal "objectivity" (the possibility of which is a contentious POV in itself). The policy specifically articulates that it "does not say that there even is such a thing as objectivity in a philosophical sense, a 'view from nowhere' (in Thomas Nagel's phrase)--such that articles written from that point of view are consequently objectively true. That isn't the policy and it is not our aim!" One could easily argue that since Jesus is viewed as the founder of a religion by millions, this article should only give the religious POV and claim that all dissent is doubtful, and should be tucked away in a subarticle; but that wouldn't be fair either. Thus we represent (broadly, in a summary fashion) the Christian perspective, the critical-historical perspective, the Jesus-myth perspective, the Muslim perspective, and so on; with due weight (i.e., space, emphasis, selection of data) given to each one according to its relevance and prominence. » MonkeeSage « 00:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Now that we've revised this section of the Jesus article, I should point out that Isa (or whatever—the article keeps getting moved around) has an NPOV-tag on it. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 20:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I just added a small section in the Chronology area about the day on which Jesus died (Wednesday as opposed to Friday). If you have any questions please leave a message on my talk page notifying me. Thanks! standonbible 15:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
16:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps it's time we nominate the article for Featured Article status? — Aiden 18:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
This is mainly about scholarly opinions of the birth and crucifixion dates, with an aside about Christian, Jewish and Roman holidays and the AD calendar notation. Is there any reason not to merge this section into the historicity section? Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 20:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I've added a template for the New King James version of the Bible. Personally I prefer this version over both the archaic King James Version and the seemingly too colloquial New International Version.
I wanted to make a comparison on a sample verse:
NIV | KJV | NKJV |
Luke 2:46–49: After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" |
Luke 2:46–49: And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? |
Luke 2:46–49: Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers. 48 So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously.” And He said to them, “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” |
What does everyone think? — Aiden 02:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I prefer the King James but defer to what contemporary scholars say. Were this an article on a Jewish theme I would choose Fox or Alter. Does the King James sound archaic because it uses archaic English, or because it is translating Greek? I personally like translations that seek to convey the rhythm and feel of the original. Just my opinion. I am, by the way, entirely ignorant of intra-Christian sectarian conflicts, and do recognize the need for a translation that is as non-sectarian as possible. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
There are three editions of the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV):
The NRSV has received acceptance among a broad range of Christian churches including the Catholic church, nearly three dozen Protestant churches, and at least one Greek Orthodox leader. The ESV, recommended by MonkeeSage, is an alternative revision of the RSV that does not use gender-inclusive language -- Drogo Underburrow 15:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I think any genuinely scholarly translation should translate Isaiah 7:14 as "young woman" rather than "virgin", which is why I prefer RSV (or NRSV, although I'm not a big fan of gender inclusive language). As far as I can tell, there's no linguistic reason one should translate the Hebrew "almah" as "virgin" rather than "young woman" - such a translation is made entirely because of a priori religious concerns regarding the virgin birth, and refers to Matthew's use of the Greek word for "virgin" in his quotation of the verse, which derives from the Septuagint. Thus, it seems to me that any bible version which uses "virgin" is pretty clearly attempting to advance a Christian POV. Note that every translation on BibleGateway uses "virgin," suggesting an agenda on their part - why on earth do they include translations I've never heard of like the "Darby translation" but not the RSV or NRSV (or any Catholic Bibles)? I'm also confused as to how the RSV and NRSV, are "Catholic" - the usual complaint about the RSV is that its version of the Old Testament is too Jewish. But this is really getting beyond the scope of this article. Perhaps we should find an appropriate manual of style subpage to discuss which version of the Bible is best to use for quotations. john k 18:08, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I'm perhaps being too hard on NKJV, but I do think it's problematic that it uses the textus receptus rather than a text based on earlier manuscripts. If we're going to use a version based on the textus receptus, why not just use the regular KJV? Rabbi Singer, by the way, seems entirely too eager to believe that showing that "alma" does not mean "virgin" somehow discredits Christianity. It seems to me that it does nothing of the sort, unless one is a Biblical inerrantist, which most Christians are not. Numerous mainstream churches, including the Catholic Church, accept translations which translate "alma" as "young woman." I believe the RSV was accused of being a Communist translation, or some such, but such things are obviously ridiculous. This information belongs in perhaps as a curiosity, like the way the John Birch Society accused Earl Warren of being a Communist, but not as an actual mainstream POV. john k 20:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
BTW, the Contemporary Standard Version discusses the translation of "young woman" vs. "virgin" in a footnote. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 21:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd say that the NIV is too evangelical, rather than too protestant. The NRSV or RSV are relatively non-sectarian, but might be considered too liberal. I suppose that for Biblical translations, there's at least four axes - sectarian/non-sectarian; liberal/traditional; word for word/general meaning; and archaic/modern language. Personally, I'd prefer that we quote two versions - the KJV, as the most familiar English rendering of any given Biblical verse; and a more modern translation that is relatively non-sectarian, relatively liberal, goes for a more literal word for word translation, and uses relatively modern language. I'm not sure any translations have the precise balance I'd prefer, but I feel as though the RSV is probably closest. And, yes, I noticed that one of the virgins on Bible Gateway mentions "young woman" as an alternative reading in a footnote. But it's interesting that it provides no versions that actually have "young woman" as their main translation, as well as no Catholic Bibles. This suggests that Biblegateway is pushing a traditionalist protestant perspective. john k 21:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd add that perhaps the best way to do this is to try to figure out what version is most commonly used by mainstream scholars. john k 21:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I've just created a new template, {{ bverse}} (see User:MonkeeSage/Bible templates) that allows using NRSV and several other translations not available in {{ bibleverse}} and {{ bibleref}}, as well as ESV, NKJV, KJV, &c. » MonkeeSage « 04:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I just finished archiving, and I had to recover the "sexual orientation of Jesus" section.
User:Spicynugget
erased this section without archiving it. Please don't do that.
Arch O. La
Grigory
Deepdelver 18:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 50 | ← | Archive 55 | Archive 56 | Archive 57 | Archive 58 | Archive 59 | Archive 60 |
Where's the neutral evidence of historical Jesus and why does this article depict biblical data of Jesus as more or less historically accurate? Why isn't there a seperate Jesus (Bible) or Jesus (mythology) article and let this main article concentrate on historical facts of his life and deeds...if any? - G3, 16:40, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Jesus (8-2 BC/BCE– 29-36 AD/CE),[1] also known as Jesus of Nazareth, is the central figure of Christianity and Christian mythology.
to
Jesus (8-2 BC/BCE– 29-36 AD/CE),[1] also known as Jesus of Nazareth, is the central figure of Christianity and the Christian worldview.
Why? Because to use the word " mythology" comes from the word "myth" which means passed down by oral tradition. This is simply untrue in reference to Jesus, for his teachings were passed down via manuscripts. Mythology is one sided, and completely opposed to the neutrality that has made Wiki so great. The article itself is not the place to discuss whether or not Jesus lived. If we leave the word mythology, we do a drastic and unfortunate disservice to our readers. If we need to link something, link to [[Christian worldview]
Myth can be written as well. Please read up on your definitions and your anthropology. If you even read the christian mythology article you will see that there is both biblical myth and folk myth. Please stop misrepresenting words and positions. from the christian mythology article:
Christian mythology is a body of stories that explains or symbolizes Christian beliefs. A Christian myth is a religious story that Christians consider to have deep explanatory or symbolic significance. Christian mythology can also be taken to refer to the entire mythos surrounding the Christian religious system, including the various narratives of both the Old and New Testaments.
I linked it directly to the Christian mythology article, precluding it from one sidedness, this does not at all imply jesus was a mythological figure and didn't live, it merely points to the fact that jesus is central to the christian mythology, not that he was a myth himself, please read the sentence before copy pasting and being critical. Solidusspriggan 02:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
it is a compound entry "christian mythology", you cannot simply remove one part of it and mix things up as you see fit. If you think Jesus isn't an integral part of christian mythology I suggest you read either the article on christian mythology, or the new testament (what I think many would consider one of the most appropriate sources of information on jesus. If you feel it is necessary then link to Christian worldview as well!
FURTHERMORE, DO NOT DELETE MY COMMENTS!!! Solidusspriggan 04:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I waited 24 hours before making these proposed changes, but the community made them for me in support of removing the word "mythology".
I can't spot the diff, but it looks like somebody changed the intro to put in "Christian Mythology" what ever that means. Wouldn't being the central figure of Christianity sort of make saying the "Center of Christian Mythology" redundant? And when did that neutrality tag appear, who wants to debate whether the article is neutral or not? Homestarmy 03:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that there is no direct link to Christian mythology in the article, it is only in the "see also" section which i think is insufficient, I came here to find out about the centrality of jesus in christian myth and lore and found it exceedingly difficult to locate the information. Beyond that I think it is not redundant but only natural because other articles about various gods and prophets mention their relation to the mythology very early in the intro to that article.
The one who added the neutrality tag wrote:
"Because to use the word " mythology" comes from the word "myth" which means passed down by oral tradition. This is simply untrue in reference to Jesus, for his teachings were passed down via manuscripts. Mythology is one sided, and completely opposed to the neutrality that has made Wiki so great. The article itself is not the place to discuss whether or not Jesus lived. If we leave the word mythology, we do a drastic and unfortunate disservice to our readers. If we need to link something, link to [[Christian worldview]"
I wrote: Myth can be written as well. Please read up on your definitions and your anthropology. If you even read the Christian mythology article you will see that there is both biblical myth and folk myth. Please stop misrepresenting words and positions. from the christian mythology article:
Christian mythology is a body of stories that explains or symbolizes Christian beliefs. A Christian myth is a religious story that Christians consider to have deep explanatory or symbolic significance. Christian mythology can also be taken to refer to the entire mythos surrounding the Christian religious system, including the various narratives of both the Old and New Testaments.
I linked it directly to the Christian mythology article, precluding it from one sidedness, this does not at all imply jesus was a mythological figure and didn't live, it merely points to the fact that jesus is central to the christian mythology, not that he was a myth himself, please read the sentence before copy pasting and being critical.
it is a compound entry "christian mythology", you cannot simply remove one part of it and mix things up as you see fit. If you think Jesus isn't an integral part of christian mythology your are sorely mistaken, I suggest you read either the article on christian mythology, or the new testament (what I think many would consider one of the most appropriate sources of information on jesus. If you feel it is necessary then link to Christian worldview as well! Solidusspriggan 21:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The Christian Mythology article is full of weasel words, and refers mainly to stories about the "saints". Jesus, therefore, is not the central character of these stories. That is why comments on Christian Mythology do not belong in this article. ross nixon 01:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Didn't see the debate already going on here; I would suggest commentary be moved here from the pink "to-do list" section at the top. Jesus is clearly the "central figure" in Christian mythology (which includes the vast body of folktales and traditions that have grown up around Christian belief and practice over the last two millennia, but which have no solid scriptural basis). Attempts to deny this seem to be based in the mistaken notion that "admitting" Christianity has a mythology somehow weakens its claim to Truth. JEREMY 01:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Silly. All articles are "poin of view based," wnich is why all articles mst comply with NPOV. Anonymous user, IMO you need to learnabout what an encyclopedia is in gneral, and what Wikipedia ia in particular. I urge you to read the five pillars,epecially our NPOV and NOR policies. Then, you can come back and express your "O," and perhaps someone will pay attntion. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Silly. "Trusting on one unveriafable source to tell the truth is not a NPOV" is a non-sequitor. First, this article does not tell the truth, it does not claim to tell the truth, Wikipedia is not concerned with telling the truth I told you to read our NPOV policy. Until you do, you comments are just ignorant. Second, this aticle does not tust one unveifiable source. First, all sources used here are verifiable Read our verifiability policy, until you do your commentsae ignorant. Second, this article uses many, many souces, just look at the bibliogaphy. Your comment is simply gibberish. I suggest we ignore these non-seqtor, off-point, unconstructive comments until it is clea that the anonymous commenter knows what s/he is talking about. For starts, read our policies so you understand what we ae doing, what we ae trying to do, here. PS. DO not claim that I am insulting you. Until you bother to read our NPOV and NOR and Verifiability policies, you are just wilfully wasting ou time and insulting us. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
So is "G3" suggesting that we replace the alleged POV of the article with his own POV (which of course is the only factual, accurate and verifiable one)? Not very consistant. In fact, as Slrubenstein indicated, WP:NPOV means representing all relevant POVs with due weight given to each (whether one agrees with them or not) — not attempting to reach some ideal "objectivity" (the possibility of which is a contentious POV in itself). The policy specifically articulates that it "does not say that there even is such a thing as objectivity in a philosophical sense, a 'view from nowhere' (in Thomas Nagel's phrase)--such that articles written from that point of view are consequently objectively true. That isn't the policy and it is not our aim!" One could easily argue that since Jesus is viewed as the founder of a religion by millions, this article should only give the religious POV and claim that all dissent is doubtful, and should be tucked away in a subarticle; but that wouldn't be fair either. Thus we represent (broadly, in a summary fashion) the Christian perspective, the critical-historical perspective, the Jesus-myth perspective, the Muslim perspective, and so on; with due weight (i.e., space, emphasis, selection of data) given to each one according to its relevance and prominence. » MonkeeSage « 00:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Now that we've revised this section of the Jesus article, I should point out that Isa (or whatever—the article keeps getting moved around) has an NPOV-tag on it. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 20:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I just added a small section in the Chronology area about the day on which Jesus died (Wednesday as opposed to Friday). If you have any questions please leave a message on my talk page notifying me. Thanks! standonbible 15:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
16:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps it's time we nominate the article for Featured Article status? — Aiden 18:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
This is mainly about scholarly opinions of the birth and crucifixion dates, with an aside about Christian, Jewish and Roman holidays and the AD calendar notation. Is there any reason not to merge this section into the historicity section? Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 20:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I've added a template for the New King James version of the Bible. Personally I prefer this version over both the archaic King James Version and the seemingly too colloquial New International Version.
I wanted to make a comparison on a sample verse:
NIV | KJV | NKJV |
Luke 2:46–49: After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" |
Luke 2:46–49: And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? |
Luke 2:46–49: Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers. 48 So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously.” And He said to them, “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” |
What does everyone think? — Aiden 02:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I prefer the King James but defer to what contemporary scholars say. Were this an article on a Jewish theme I would choose Fox or Alter. Does the King James sound archaic because it uses archaic English, or because it is translating Greek? I personally like translations that seek to convey the rhythm and feel of the original. Just my opinion. I am, by the way, entirely ignorant of intra-Christian sectarian conflicts, and do recognize the need for a translation that is as non-sectarian as possible. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
There are three editions of the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV):
The NRSV has received acceptance among a broad range of Christian churches including the Catholic church, nearly three dozen Protestant churches, and at least one Greek Orthodox leader. The ESV, recommended by MonkeeSage, is an alternative revision of the RSV that does not use gender-inclusive language -- Drogo Underburrow 15:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I think any genuinely scholarly translation should translate Isaiah 7:14 as "young woman" rather than "virgin", which is why I prefer RSV (or NRSV, although I'm not a big fan of gender inclusive language). As far as I can tell, there's no linguistic reason one should translate the Hebrew "almah" as "virgin" rather than "young woman" - such a translation is made entirely because of a priori religious concerns regarding the virgin birth, and refers to Matthew's use of the Greek word for "virgin" in his quotation of the verse, which derives from the Septuagint. Thus, it seems to me that any bible version which uses "virgin" is pretty clearly attempting to advance a Christian POV. Note that every translation on BibleGateway uses "virgin," suggesting an agenda on their part - why on earth do they include translations I've never heard of like the "Darby translation" but not the RSV or NRSV (or any Catholic Bibles)? I'm also confused as to how the RSV and NRSV, are "Catholic" - the usual complaint about the RSV is that its version of the Old Testament is too Jewish. But this is really getting beyond the scope of this article. Perhaps we should find an appropriate manual of style subpage to discuss which version of the Bible is best to use for quotations. john k 18:08, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I'm perhaps being too hard on NKJV, but I do think it's problematic that it uses the textus receptus rather than a text based on earlier manuscripts. If we're going to use a version based on the textus receptus, why not just use the regular KJV? Rabbi Singer, by the way, seems entirely too eager to believe that showing that "alma" does not mean "virgin" somehow discredits Christianity. It seems to me that it does nothing of the sort, unless one is a Biblical inerrantist, which most Christians are not. Numerous mainstream churches, including the Catholic Church, accept translations which translate "alma" as "young woman." I believe the RSV was accused of being a Communist translation, or some such, but such things are obviously ridiculous. This information belongs in perhaps as a curiosity, like the way the John Birch Society accused Earl Warren of being a Communist, but not as an actual mainstream POV. john k 20:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
BTW, the Contemporary Standard Version discusses the translation of "young woman" vs. "virgin" in a footnote. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 21:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd say that the NIV is too evangelical, rather than too protestant. The NRSV or RSV are relatively non-sectarian, but might be considered too liberal. I suppose that for Biblical translations, there's at least four axes - sectarian/non-sectarian; liberal/traditional; word for word/general meaning; and archaic/modern language. Personally, I'd prefer that we quote two versions - the KJV, as the most familiar English rendering of any given Biblical verse; and a more modern translation that is relatively non-sectarian, relatively liberal, goes for a more literal word for word translation, and uses relatively modern language. I'm not sure any translations have the precise balance I'd prefer, but I feel as though the RSV is probably closest. And, yes, I noticed that one of the virgins on Bible Gateway mentions "young woman" as an alternative reading in a footnote. But it's interesting that it provides no versions that actually have "young woman" as their main translation, as well as no Catholic Bibles. This suggests that Biblegateway is pushing a traditionalist protestant perspective. john k 21:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd add that perhaps the best way to do this is to try to figure out what version is most commonly used by mainstream scholars. john k 21:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I've just created a new template, {{ bverse}} (see User:MonkeeSage/Bible templates) that allows using NRSV and several other translations not available in {{ bibleverse}} and {{ bibleref}}, as well as ESV, NKJV, KJV, &c. » MonkeeSage « 04:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I just finished archiving, and I had to recover the "sexual orientation of Jesus" section.
User:Spicynugget
erased this section without archiving it. Please don't do that.
Arch O. La
Grigory
Deepdelver 18:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)