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This paragraph has been caught in a minor edit war in the last few days.
Someone keeps hiding the paragraph in comment tags, saying it doesn't fit. I find this ridiculous. Any summary of the Life and Teachings of Jesus simply must mention the Pharisees, Sadducees and Samaritans he encountered during his ministry. Several of us worked hard to ensure that this paragraph is an accurate and balanced summary of what the Gospels say.
On the other hand, somebody at AOL (most recently 64.12.117.6 ( talk · contribs)) seems intent on reverting any and all good faith edits to the paragraph. We're trying to be concise. We don't need to summarize the parable of the Good Samaritan when we link to both the Wikipedia article and the passage from BibleGateway. We also don't need to quote the demon-possessed Samaritan passage out of context (although this is notable in context, since this is one of the times that the crowd intends to stone Jesus, and he escapes).
I for one am getting tired of editing in circles. Let's talk about this. Grigory Deepdelver of Brockenboring Talk TCF 21:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
The Zealots are worth a mention because they are one of the four sects of Judaism mentioned by Josephus: "But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord." JA18.32 Judas of Galilee or Judas of Gamala led a violent resistance to a census imposed for Roman tax purposes by Quirinius in Iudaea Province around 6 CE. In addition, if you read the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Zealots you will see their origins are even earlier. But, no doubt this factual and referenced information will be suppressed from wikipedia because of groups with agendas other than the truth or npov. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.18.127 ( talk • contribs)
The AOL anon is at it again: [5]. That's five regressive edits by my count. I wish this person would come and discuss this on the talk page. Grigory Deepdelver of Brockenboring Talk TCF 03:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and most certainly the Zealots are relevant to Jesus. Galilee was the center of the Zealots and Sicarii. The word is clearly used twice in the NT: Luke 6:15 and Acts 1:13. It is in Didache 3:2 [6] "Be neither jealous, nor quarrelsome, nor of hot temper, for out of all these murders are engendered." Bauer's Lexicon, 2nd ed., lists several references: WRFarmer, Maccabees, Zealots and Josephus '56; MHengel, Die Zeloten (Herod I to 70 AD), '61; MSmith, HTR 64, '71. 1-19; SGFBrandon, Jesus and the Zealots, '67; s. Brandon's answer to criticism NTS 17, '70/'71, 453 and cf. JGGriffiths, ibid. 19, '73, 483-89; HPKingdon, ibid. 19, '72, 74-81. Moulton-Milligan.
One more point, Jesus is said to teach non-violence and pacificism, however, there is one apparently factual incident that can not be denied: Jesus and the Money Changers. Cf. Matt 5:22, Luke 14:26, John 15:25
Also, the NIV uses "Simon the Zealot" at Mark 3:18 and Matthew 10:4, in addition to the two verses cited above. The KJV used "Simon the Canaanite" in Mark and Matthew. As the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Zealots points out: ""the Canaanite," obviously a corruption of הקנאי ("ha-Ḳanna'i" = "the Zealot")."
VERITAS VOS LIBERABIT
1. You're arguing against practically all translations if you're gonna claim zealot in Luke 6:15 is an adjective. (You're also technically wrong, σιμωνα τον καλουμενον ζηλωτην is just proper declension of nouns). 2. The NIV translation, which appears to be the most common one cited in the article, has "Simon the Zealot" at Mark 3:18, Matthew 10:4, Luke 6:15, Acts 1:13. That's a Wikipedia:Reliable sources, it should not be deleted from the article for that reason alone. 3. The adjective form, zealous, has everything to do with Zealots, because Zealots are zealous, that's why Josephus calls them Zealots. Zealots is not a technical name like Sadducees. 4. "Simon the Zealot" was more than a disciple, he was one of the twelve apostles. 5. Acts 5:33-39 is more than a passing reference. 6. The disturbance at the Temple ( Jesus and the Money Changers) is easily understood as a Zealot act, for example John 2:17: εμνησθησαν οι μαθηται αυτου οτι γεγραμμενον εστιν ο ζηλος του οικου σου καταφαγεται με (see any familiar words in there?)
But it's so easy to dismiss all this as "passing", isn't it?
OK, so let's summarize:
According to Josephus, there was a fourth sect of first century Judaism, founded in the tax revolt of 6ce, by Judas of Galilee, also cited in Acts 5:37. Most scholars consider this group the so-called "Zealots". Some scholars believe the "Zealots" weren't founded till the first Roman-Jewish War in 70ce, on the other hand, some scholars, such as the Jewish Encyclopedia, believe their origins go back to at least Herod the Great and perhaps earlier.
What is the relationship, if any, between Jesus and the Zealots?
1. One of his designated "Twelve Apostles" was called "Simon the Zealot" (Mark 3:18, Matthew 10:4, Luke 6:15, Acts 1:3, NIV) 2. Jesus' "cleansing of the temple" ( Jesus and the Money Changers) was certainly a zealous or revolutionary act, John 2:17 uses the word zeal. 3. Acts 5:33-39 compares the followers of Jesus to Judas of Galilee.
Reference: S.G.F. Brandon, Jesus and the Zealots (A Study of the Political Factor in Primitive Christianity), ISBN: 0684310104, 1967 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.78.19.63 ( talk • contribs) .
It would appear that this section is no summary of the "main" article it points to, namely New Testament view on Jesus' life but is a duplicate attempt to cover the same ground. Drogo Underburrow 03:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
We are still having a minor edit war over Matthew 5. At one point, I had a short summary of each of the points, but removed it to be concise. I feel we can discuss the details at New Testament view on Jesus' life, not to mention that the linked article already gives full details.
Somebody (most recently 205.188.116.66 ( talk · contribs), an AOL IP) keeps adding selective details to the summary of Matthew 5. Aiden calls these "cherry-picked examples," and I agree. 205.188.116.66, however, says "revise the list of examples as you think necessary; but some examples are needed, otherwise the sentence is very misleading."
We should talk about this. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Jim, there is, of course, a myriad of interpretations of Matthew 5—specifically, the Expounding of the Law, as that article explains— from antinomianism to legalism, to Law and Gospel, to the Catholic doctrine of Law as Gospel, to whatever interpretation Eastern Christianity has. It seems every Christian denomination or movement has a different interpretation. It might be appropriate to discuss these interpretations in the Christian views section of this article. However, given the length of both that section and this article, it might be better to explain these interpretations in Christian views of Jesus or, perhaps, Christian theology. We do not have room to explain everything in this article; that is why we have subarticles. The Expounding of the Law article most directly explains the varying interpretations. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 20:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello
Eastern has passed, and there has already be started a discussion on about questions concerning the trial of Jesus. So may this is the right moment for re-thinking the part about the current section about the trial and crucifixion. That part not only contains some errors, ney unfortunately in its given form it violates the basic principles of wikipedia, namely NPOV. Even worse it is partially anti-Judaism, which I think is not tolerable. So let me present my arguments before making some proposals.
That is plainly wrong. When Jesus was arrested he was not charged formally of anything, not even at the beginning of the trial before the Sanhedrin. He was arrested, stop, brought before the Sanhedrin stop, asked whether is the messiah, which he either confirmed or did not answer clearly stop. So he can't have been arrested for something, which he did after the arrest! John 10:33 is also irrelevant here, since again it is not refereed to, when the arrest takes place. Moreover
Apostles is not the right word to be used here, the Greek word is mathetes, which is translated as disciples. Apostel is a word which was formed after the death of Jesus.
Current version | New version |
According to the Gospels, Jesus came with his followers to Jerusalem during the Passover festival, and created a disturbance at the Temple by overturning the tables of the moneychangers there. (Mark 11.18, Matthew 21.15). He was subsequently arrested on the orders of the Sanhedrin and the high priest, Caiaphas for blasphemy, because he claimed to be the messiah (Mark 14: 62) and because, the Jews believed, he had made himself to be God (John 10: 33). He was identified to the guards by one of his apostles, Judas Iscariot (Mark 14:45, Mat 26:49, Luke 22:47), who betrayed Jesus by a kiss in the Garden of Gethsemane, after which another apostle, Peter in the Gospel of John, used a sword to attack one of the captors, cutting off his ear, which Jesus immediately healed (Luke 22:51). After his arrest, Jesus' apostles went into hiding. Jesus was condemned for blasphemy (Mark 14:64 Matthew 26:66) by the Sanhedrin and turned over to the Roman Empire for execution, on the charge of sedition for claiming to be King of the Jews (Luke 23:2). The usual penalty for sedition was a humiliating death by crucifixion, but the Roman governor Pontius Pilate did not find Jesus to be guilty of any crime. So Pilate first had Jesus flogged (John 19:1-8), and then, remembering that it was a custom at Passover for the Roman governor to free a prisoner, Pilate offered the crowd a choice between Jesus of Nazareth and an insurrectionist named Jesus Barabbas. The crowd chose to have Barabbas freed and Jesus crucified. Pilate washed his hands to display that he himself was innocent of the injustice of the decision. (Matt 27:24) |
According to the Gospels, Jesus came with his followers to Jerusalem during the Passover festival where he gained substantial attention, for a very large crowd welcome him by shouting, Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest! (Matt 21:8). After this triumphal entry Jesus drove those out of the temple, who were selling (Luke 19:45). Jesus was arrested by Roman soldiers aided by Temple guards (John. 18:3), clandestinely at night to avoid a riot, because Jesus was popular with the people at large (Mark. 14:2). Since the soldiers and guards had difficulties to identify Jesus, he declared Ï am he" (John 18:5). One of this disciples, used a sword to attack one of the captors, cutting off his ear. After his arrest, Jesus disciples went into hiding. Jesus was questioned by Annas and Caiaphas about his disciples and his teaching and then taken to the roman prefect Pontius Pilate (Jn.18:19, 24, 28). Although Pilate was known to use violence to enforce Roman rule (Luke 13:1), he offered the crowd a choice between Jesus of Nazareth and an well known prisoner named Jesus Barabbas (27:16). The crowd chose to have the insurrectionist Barabbas, who had taken part in an armed struggle against the country's rulers (Joh 18:40), freed and Jesus crucified. Jesus was scourged as part of the Roman crucifixion procedure once Pilate ordered his execution (Mark. 15:15). All the multitudes of Jews were sorrowful about Jesus' crucifixion (Luke 23:48). |
Left you see the current version, to which I have added the relevant references from the Gospels (if say Mark and Matthew are listed, but not John and Luke well then there are no such references!). On the right you will find a different version, which is based on a different selection of the material; as much a fact as the current version.
I think it is quite obvious what is going on. The left version is a selection of the given material which enhances the Jewish gilt, while the right version does not. So a selection of given material is clearly a violation of one of the basic principles of wikipedia, namely NPOV.
The main difference in the narrative of the Gospels concerns John versus the Synoptics: According to the Synoptics the chief priests tried to make a plot against Jesus, arrested him, condemned him and sent him to Pilate, while according to John it was the Romans who arrested Jesus. On the other hand, in John, it is the Jewish mob who is mostly responsible that Pilate condemned Jesus, even against his own conviction.
Now the current version follows the Synoptics, when it comes to the arrest but mostly to John when it comes to the trial before Pilate, while my version does it the other way around.
The point is that both version can claim with equal right that they are faithful to the facts as presented in the Gospels.
That the Passion material is selected in a specific way is not new, for example the movie of M. Gibson does this in a far more extreme way than the current article and I am not sure whether this selection of the given material in the current version would qualify for using the term anti Judaism but it is close, too close in my opinion.
So the question arises what to do? Since my version can claim with equal right that it is faithful to the facts we could just substitute one for the other. However both versions might be problematic (because they might be POV) and hence I think we need a truly balanced presentation of the material. I made a proposal some time ago which got rejected (at least that was my impression), so could anybody else make a proposal? I think what we can't do is to keep the current version as it is.
Anti-Judaism has been mentioned and discussed already in wikipedia article so I only wish to add that I think nowadays we cannot have a presentation which is so tendentious as the current one, whose tendency is even enhanced in a subtle way by having included the picture showing a Jesus, flogged before the crucifixion.
I shall also emphasise that I am not talking about a (critical) discussion of the material as presented in the Gospels as some historian have done it, I am just talking about the selection of the material as presented in the Gospels. Oub 14:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC):
Hey Oub, I think you're right. The use of John's narrative of the flogging, with no mention of the synoptic version (where Jesus is flogged as part of the preparations for crucifixion after he has been condemned) is especially problematic. We ought to explain the variant versions, not try to harmonize them, which constitutes original research. john k 15:47, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Re: Oub: I've asked for a translation of the German article; here is a partial translation: User:Jim62sch/German-English Jesus. However, in the last month the German article has lost its FA star. Since I can't read German, I don't know why. I was considering asking someone else to complete the translation, but after what happened this weekend, I think you're right, we should wait. Grigory Deepdelver Talk 17:45,
I agree with johnk. As I mentioned above with the baptism account, we shouldn't make a single harmonized narrative of events from 4 different versions. My solution there was to present Mk and explain where Lk and Mt differed. The trial/crucifixion is a little different because we also have Jn to deal with. I support efforts to change this section, and hopefully we can work something out once the page is unprotected.-- Andrew c 21:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
It seems like with the passion narrative you have three basically separate versions - Matthew/Mark (with Matthew having a few notable differences and changes in emphasis from Mark, notably the fate of Judas, Pilate's wife's dreams, Pilate washing his hands, the blood curse on the Jews); Luke (seemingly based in part on Mark, but also considerably different in a lot of ways); and John (a wholly different account). I'm not sure what the best way to go about this would be. john k 17:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 50 | Archive 51 | Archive 52 | Archive 53 | Archive 54 | Archive 55 | → | Archive 60 |
This paragraph has been caught in a minor edit war in the last few days.
Someone keeps hiding the paragraph in comment tags, saying it doesn't fit. I find this ridiculous. Any summary of the Life and Teachings of Jesus simply must mention the Pharisees, Sadducees and Samaritans he encountered during his ministry. Several of us worked hard to ensure that this paragraph is an accurate and balanced summary of what the Gospels say.
On the other hand, somebody at AOL (most recently 64.12.117.6 ( talk · contribs)) seems intent on reverting any and all good faith edits to the paragraph. We're trying to be concise. We don't need to summarize the parable of the Good Samaritan when we link to both the Wikipedia article and the passage from BibleGateway. We also don't need to quote the demon-possessed Samaritan passage out of context (although this is notable in context, since this is one of the times that the crowd intends to stone Jesus, and he escapes).
I for one am getting tired of editing in circles. Let's talk about this. Grigory Deepdelver of Brockenboring Talk TCF 21:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
The Zealots are worth a mention because they are one of the four sects of Judaism mentioned by Josephus: "But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord." JA18.32 Judas of Galilee or Judas of Gamala led a violent resistance to a census imposed for Roman tax purposes by Quirinius in Iudaea Province around 6 CE. In addition, if you read the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Zealots you will see their origins are even earlier. But, no doubt this factual and referenced information will be suppressed from wikipedia because of groups with agendas other than the truth or npov. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.18.127 ( talk • contribs)
The AOL anon is at it again: [5]. That's five regressive edits by my count. I wish this person would come and discuss this on the talk page. Grigory Deepdelver of Brockenboring Talk TCF 03:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and most certainly the Zealots are relevant to Jesus. Galilee was the center of the Zealots and Sicarii. The word is clearly used twice in the NT: Luke 6:15 and Acts 1:13. It is in Didache 3:2 [6] "Be neither jealous, nor quarrelsome, nor of hot temper, for out of all these murders are engendered." Bauer's Lexicon, 2nd ed., lists several references: WRFarmer, Maccabees, Zealots and Josephus '56; MHengel, Die Zeloten (Herod I to 70 AD), '61; MSmith, HTR 64, '71. 1-19; SGFBrandon, Jesus and the Zealots, '67; s. Brandon's answer to criticism NTS 17, '70/'71, 453 and cf. JGGriffiths, ibid. 19, '73, 483-89; HPKingdon, ibid. 19, '72, 74-81. Moulton-Milligan.
One more point, Jesus is said to teach non-violence and pacificism, however, there is one apparently factual incident that can not be denied: Jesus and the Money Changers. Cf. Matt 5:22, Luke 14:26, John 15:25
Also, the NIV uses "Simon the Zealot" at Mark 3:18 and Matthew 10:4, in addition to the two verses cited above. The KJV used "Simon the Canaanite" in Mark and Matthew. As the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Zealots points out: ""the Canaanite," obviously a corruption of הקנאי ("ha-Ḳanna'i" = "the Zealot")."
VERITAS VOS LIBERABIT
1. You're arguing against practically all translations if you're gonna claim zealot in Luke 6:15 is an adjective. (You're also technically wrong, σιμωνα τον καλουμενον ζηλωτην is just proper declension of nouns). 2. The NIV translation, which appears to be the most common one cited in the article, has "Simon the Zealot" at Mark 3:18, Matthew 10:4, Luke 6:15, Acts 1:13. That's a Wikipedia:Reliable sources, it should not be deleted from the article for that reason alone. 3. The adjective form, zealous, has everything to do with Zealots, because Zealots are zealous, that's why Josephus calls them Zealots. Zealots is not a technical name like Sadducees. 4. "Simon the Zealot" was more than a disciple, he was one of the twelve apostles. 5. Acts 5:33-39 is more than a passing reference. 6. The disturbance at the Temple ( Jesus and the Money Changers) is easily understood as a Zealot act, for example John 2:17: εμνησθησαν οι μαθηται αυτου οτι γεγραμμενον εστιν ο ζηλος του οικου σου καταφαγεται με (see any familiar words in there?)
But it's so easy to dismiss all this as "passing", isn't it?
OK, so let's summarize:
According to Josephus, there was a fourth sect of first century Judaism, founded in the tax revolt of 6ce, by Judas of Galilee, also cited in Acts 5:37. Most scholars consider this group the so-called "Zealots". Some scholars believe the "Zealots" weren't founded till the first Roman-Jewish War in 70ce, on the other hand, some scholars, such as the Jewish Encyclopedia, believe their origins go back to at least Herod the Great and perhaps earlier.
What is the relationship, if any, between Jesus and the Zealots?
1. One of his designated "Twelve Apostles" was called "Simon the Zealot" (Mark 3:18, Matthew 10:4, Luke 6:15, Acts 1:3, NIV) 2. Jesus' "cleansing of the temple" ( Jesus and the Money Changers) was certainly a zealous or revolutionary act, John 2:17 uses the word zeal. 3. Acts 5:33-39 compares the followers of Jesus to Judas of Galilee.
Reference: S.G.F. Brandon, Jesus and the Zealots (A Study of the Political Factor in Primitive Christianity), ISBN: 0684310104, 1967 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.78.19.63 ( talk • contribs) .
It would appear that this section is no summary of the "main" article it points to, namely New Testament view on Jesus' life but is a duplicate attempt to cover the same ground. Drogo Underburrow 03:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
We are still having a minor edit war over Matthew 5. At one point, I had a short summary of each of the points, but removed it to be concise. I feel we can discuss the details at New Testament view on Jesus' life, not to mention that the linked article already gives full details.
Somebody (most recently 205.188.116.66 ( talk · contribs), an AOL IP) keeps adding selective details to the summary of Matthew 5. Aiden calls these "cherry-picked examples," and I agree. 205.188.116.66, however, says "revise the list of examples as you think necessary; but some examples are needed, otherwise the sentence is very misleading."
We should talk about this. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Jim, there is, of course, a myriad of interpretations of Matthew 5—specifically, the Expounding of the Law, as that article explains— from antinomianism to legalism, to Law and Gospel, to the Catholic doctrine of Law as Gospel, to whatever interpretation Eastern Christianity has. It seems every Christian denomination or movement has a different interpretation. It might be appropriate to discuss these interpretations in the Christian views section of this article. However, given the length of both that section and this article, it might be better to explain these interpretations in Christian views of Jesus or, perhaps, Christian theology. We do not have room to explain everything in this article; that is why we have subarticles. The Expounding of the Law article most directly explains the varying interpretations. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 20:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello
Eastern has passed, and there has already be started a discussion on about questions concerning the trial of Jesus. So may this is the right moment for re-thinking the part about the current section about the trial and crucifixion. That part not only contains some errors, ney unfortunately in its given form it violates the basic principles of wikipedia, namely NPOV. Even worse it is partially anti-Judaism, which I think is not tolerable. So let me present my arguments before making some proposals.
That is plainly wrong. When Jesus was arrested he was not charged formally of anything, not even at the beginning of the trial before the Sanhedrin. He was arrested, stop, brought before the Sanhedrin stop, asked whether is the messiah, which he either confirmed or did not answer clearly stop. So he can't have been arrested for something, which he did after the arrest! John 10:33 is also irrelevant here, since again it is not refereed to, when the arrest takes place. Moreover
Apostles is not the right word to be used here, the Greek word is mathetes, which is translated as disciples. Apostel is a word which was formed after the death of Jesus.
Current version | New version |
According to the Gospels, Jesus came with his followers to Jerusalem during the Passover festival, and created a disturbance at the Temple by overturning the tables of the moneychangers there. (Mark 11.18, Matthew 21.15). He was subsequently arrested on the orders of the Sanhedrin and the high priest, Caiaphas for blasphemy, because he claimed to be the messiah (Mark 14: 62) and because, the Jews believed, he had made himself to be God (John 10: 33). He was identified to the guards by one of his apostles, Judas Iscariot (Mark 14:45, Mat 26:49, Luke 22:47), who betrayed Jesus by a kiss in the Garden of Gethsemane, after which another apostle, Peter in the Gospel of John, used a sword to attack one of the captors, cutting off his ear, which Jesus immediately healed (Luke 22:51). After his arrest, Jesus' apostles went into hiding. Jesus was condemned for blasphemy (Mark 14:64 Matthew 26:66) by the Sanhedrin and turned over to the Roman Empire for execution, on the charge of sedition for claiming to be King of the Jews (Luke 23:2). The usual penalty for sedition was a humiliating death by crucifixion, but the Roman governor Pontius Pilate did not find Jesus to be guilty of any crime. So Pilate first had Jesus flogged (John 19:1-8), and then, remembering that it was a custom at Passover for the Roman governor to free a prisoner, Pilate offered the crowd a choice between Jesus of Nazareth and an insurrectionist named Jesus Barabbas. The crowd chose to have Barabbas freed and Jesus crucified. Pilate washed his hands to display that he himself was innocent of the injustice of the decision. (Matt 27:24) |
According to the Gospels, Jesus came with his followers to Jerusalem during the Passover festival where he gained substantial attention, for a very large crowd welcome him by shouting, Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest! (Matt 21:8). After this triumphal entry Jesus drove those out of the temple, who were selling (Luke 19:45). Jesus was arrested by Roman soldiers aided by Temple guards (John. 18:3), clandestinely at night to avoid a riot, because Jesus was popular with the people at large (Mark. 14:2). Since the soldiers and guards had difficulties to identify Jesus, he declared Ï am he" (John 18:5). One of this disciples, used a sword to attack one of the captors, cutting off his ear. After his arrest, Jesus disciples went into hiding. Jesus was questioned by Annas and Caiaphas about his disciples and his teaching and then taken to the roman prefect Pontius Pilate (Jn.18:19, 24, 28). Although Pilate was known to use violence to enforce Roman rule (Luke 13:1), he offered the crowd a choice between Jesus of Nazareth and an well known prisoner named Jesus Barabbas (27:16). The crowd chose to have the insurrectionist Barabbas, who had taken part in an armed struggle against the country's rulers (Joh 18:40), freed and Jesus crucified. Jesus was scourged as part of the Roman crucifixion procedure once Pilate ordered his execution (Mark. 15:15). All the multitudes of Jews were sorrowful about Jesus' crucifixion (Luke 23:48). |
Left you see the current version, to which I have added the relevant references from the Gospels (if say Mark and Matthew are listed, but not John and Luke well then there are no such references!). On the right you will find a different version, which is based on a different selection of the material; as much a fact as the current version.
I think it is quite obvious what is going on. The left version is a selection of the given material which enhances the Jewish gilt, while the right version does not. So a selection of given material is clearly a violation of one of the basic principles of wikipedia, namely NPOV.
The main difference in the narrative of the Gospels concerns John versus the Synoptics: According to the Synoptics the chief priests tried to make a plot against Jesus, arrested him, condemned him and sent him to Pilate, while according to John it was the Romans who arrested Jesus. On the other hand, in John, it is the Jewish mob who is mostly responsible that Pilate condemned Jesus, even against his own conviction.
Now the current version follows the Synoptics, when it comes to the arrest but mostly to John when it comes to the trial before Pilate, while my version does it the other way around.
The point is that both version can claim with equal right that they are faithful to the facts as presented in the Gospels.
That the Passion material is selected in a specific way is not new, for example the movie of M. Gibson does this in a far more extreme way than the current article and I am not sure whether this selection of the given material in the current version would qualify for using the term anti Judaism but it is close, too close in my opinion.
So the question arises what to do? Since my version can claim with equal right that it is faithful to the facts we could just substitute one for the other. However both versions might be problematic (because they might be POV) and hence I think we need a truly balanced presentation of the material. I made a proposal some time ago which got rejected (at least that was my impression), so could anybody else make a proposal? I think what we can't do is to keep the current version as it is.
Anti-Judaism has been mentioned and discussed already in wikipedia article so I only wish to add that I think nowadays we cannot have a presentation which is so tendentious as the current one, whose tendency is even enhanced in a subtle way by having included the picture showing a Jesus, flogged before the crucifixion.
I shall also emphasise that I am not talking about a (critical) discussion of the material as presented in the Gospels as some historian have done it, I am just talking about the selection of the material as presented in the Gospels. Oub 14:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC):
Hey Oub, I think you're right. The use of John's narrative of the flogging, with no mention of the synoptic version (where Jesus is flogged as part of the preparations for crucifixion after he has been condemned) is especially problematic. We ought to explain the variant versions, not try to harmonize them, which constitutes original research. john k 15:47, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Re: Oub: I've asked for a translation of the German article; here is a partial translation: User:Jim62sch/German-English Jesus. However, in the last month the German article has lost its FA star. Since I can't read German, I don't know why. I was considering asking someone else to complete the translation, but after what happened this weekend, I think you're right, we should wait. Grigory Deepdelver Talk 17:45,
I agree with johnk. As I mentioned above with the baptism account, we shouldn't make a single harmonized narrative of events from 4 different versions. My solution there was to present Mk and explain where Lk and Mt differed. The trial/crucifixion is a little different because we also have Jn to deal with. I support efforts to change this section, and hopefully we can work something out once the page is unprotected.-- Andrew c 21:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
It seems like with the passion narrative you have three basically separate versions - Matthew/Mark (with Matthew having a few notable differences and changes in emphasis from Mark, notably the fate of Judas, Pilate's wife's dreams, Pilate washing his hands, the blood curse on the Jews); Luke (seemingly based in part on Mark, but also considerably different in a lot of ways); and John (a wholly different account). I'm not sure what the best way to go about this would be. john k 17:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)