This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | → | Archive 40 |
I propose that this article not be in the category of Dead People Rumored to be Living, as it is contentious, lacking in NPOV, and highly offensive to orthodox Christians. -- Aaron Walden 10:17, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Im not entirely certain what that category means, does it mean people who supposedly never died, or people who may of died but then came back to life? Homestarmy 20:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Please keep all discussion here and votes (with summaries if desired) below.
I can go either way. I like short and to the point, but it does help to state the principle objections of the minority. If we were to reference the historicity article, then I could live with it. -- CTSWyneken 15:32, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Looks good. Can you fix the ref at the end, though?
Jpers36 15:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Done. Change to "accept" now? We need a clear consensus here if we ever hope to be able to move on. Gator (talk) 15:39, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
In general, I agree with the paragraph. However, speaking strictly as a recently minted journalist, I can see how the modifiers "vast" and "small" can be construed as POV. I might point out that the third paragraph simple refers to "most" and "other" Christians. "The majority" and "a minority" of critical Bible scholars and historians is probably sufficient.
I'd also like to point out that essentially the same point has a "citation needed" tag in the Jesus-Myth article. archola 15:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that Rossnixon has a point about "fringe views" (sorry to keep mentioning Socrates, but his page doesn't mention the "Fictional Construct of Plato" theory). On the other hand, I take CTSWyneken's remarks about a cottage industry on the Internet to heart. For that very reason, I think it's important to keep a reference to the Jesus-Myth folks (and others with a similar view) in the paragraph. archola 00:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
To Robsteadman, concerning his comments under "Reject":
::It seems that two users are rejecting because they want less mention of the fringe view. So here is my question, if the last sentence just read: "However, a small minority of others question the historicity of Jesus." (leaving out the reasons like the sentence originally looked) Would that create more consensus (causing rejects to go to accept or would it cause more accepts to reject? I am fine with it either way. Let me know and I can change the paragraph (nothing written in stoen just yet).
Gator
(talk) 13:39, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The problem with this, Archola, is that one can accept the Jesus myth as a way of explaining the origins of (and critiquing) Christian doctrine - while still believing a human being named Jesus preached in the Galilee in 1st century roman-Occupied Galilee. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that's fine, but I think we;re getting a consensus here and O don;t want to disruopt that by changing the paragraph too much unless I am sure that it won;t nmess things up?
How do people feel about the last sentence reading "However, a minority of others question the historicity of Jesus?" If I don;t hear too much feedbac, then it will stay the way it is in order to preserve the (developing) consensus. Gator (talk) 15:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with CTSWyneken. We can describe these people, some of whom are academics in other fields and others of whom are free-lance writers. And we should make clear that they are not trained classical or Biblical historians. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to go ahead and withdraw my proposed change. At this point, I think we either have or about to ave consensus on a paragraph that has lead to alot of fighting and hard feelings. Unless others want to propose another version of the above paragraph, I'm going to withdraw my change. Gator (talk) 18:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I think we're good here. Pretty soon we can declare consensus, edit it in and move on. Gator (talk) 18:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Sam, I certainly hope you do exist. I voted for Your adminship. archola 07:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I wrote in the article:
"No historian has ever said that Jesus never existed."
I think this statement should stay. It is the non historians who proclaim that Jesus never existed. ken 18:27, 14 February 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
Addendum: Here is what I recently read:
At first glance, the "Jesus-myth" seems to be a stroke of genius: To eliminate Christianity and any possibility of it being true, just eliminate the founder! The idea was first significantly publicized by a 19th-century German scholar named Bruno Bauer. Following Bauer, there were a few other supporters: Couchoud, Gurev, Augstein [Chars.JesJud 97-8]. Today the active believer is most likely to have waved in their faces one of four supporters of this thesis: The turn-of-the-century writer Arthur Drews; the myth-thesis' most prominent and prolific supporter, G. A. Wells, who has published five books on the subject; Earl Doherty, or Acharya S. Each of these writers takes slightly different approaches, but they all agree that a person named Jesus did not exist (or, Wells seems to have taken a view now that Jesus may have existed, but may as well not have).
Does the "Jesus-myth" have any scholarly support? In this case, to simply say "no" would be an exaggeration! Support for the "Jesus-myth" comes not from historians, but usually from writers operating far out of their field. G. A. Wells, for example, is a professor of German; Drews was a professor of mathematics; Acharya only has a lower degree in classics; Doherty has some qualifications, but clearly lacks the discipline of a true scholar. The greatest support for the "Jesus-myth" comes not from people who know the subject, but from popularizers and those who accept their work uncritically. It is this latter group that we are most likely to encounter - and sadly, arguments and evidence seldom faze them. In spite of the fact that relevant scholarly consenus is unanimous that the "Jesus-myth" is incorrect, it continues to be promulgated on a popular level as though it were absolutely proven. taken from: http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html
ken 18:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
Robsteadman still does not get our policies. It is simply not for a wikipedian editor to make any judgement whatsover as to the proof of Jesus's existence, or to say that historians have no proof. No historian in the world has "proof," they have "evidence." Moreover, Steadman continues to lie about these scholars claiming that they are expressing their faith. It is a lie and Steadman has no proof of this. I have asked repeatedly that he provide evidence, and Steadman has provided no evidence. He is a dogmatist driven by his own faith, which relieves him of the need to provide evidence for any of his claims. This attitude can only be destructive of the goals of our encyclopedia. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:47, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
encyclopedic
1) having to do with an encyclopedia
2) as with an encyclopedia, having a comprehensive scope, especially of information or knowledge (either in general or on a specific topic)
.
FYI I added the above
[1]
Slrubenstein |
Talk 09:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Archola, what if we applied 1 Peter 3:14-16 instead? It seems to me what this situation needs is a good, healthy dose of Biblical evangelism :D. Homestarmy 13:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
There may be some who use the mythological similarities to claim that Jesus never existed. However, I think most historians who refer to similarities between Christian beliefs about Jesus and beliefs about other gods during the Hellenic period believe that those beliefs influenced Christian beliefs and made Christianity appealing to a wider population - i.e. it is very relevant to critical histories of Christianity. But this is apart from the question of whether a human being named Jesus whom people believed to be a healer and who preached love existed in first century Galilee. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:11, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The thing about the mythology debate is that it can go either way, for instance, Christian's beliefs could of influenced other religions rather than the other way around, and religions before Christianity could of gotten influenced by the OT, which predicted Christ's coming. At the end of the day however, is it really that important to this article? Homestarmy 17:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Why not mention that the idea that Jesus is entirely mythical has been discussed and largely dismissed by academic historians? This is somewhat akin to saying that astronomers once believed in geocentricism, currently believe in heliocentricism and that geocentricism is now considered to be a fringe theory. This acknowledges both the debate among historians and the current concensus among historians. archola 00:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
And I've copied previous discussion on the third paragraph to Talk:Jesus/Christian views in intro. The archive dates back to Jan. 8, when the paragraph was added to the intro.
I don't mean to jump the gun, but when we are ready to move on, we might want to review the previous discussion. archola 10:59, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
A few introductory comments. The paragraph as it stands represents a compromise. We tried to come up with a description broad enough to cover all forms of Christianity. The reference to the Nicene Creed is mine; it acknowledges the historic and ongoing distinction between Nicene Christianity and its descendents on the one hand, and other forms of Christianity on the other. It also acknowledges that the beliefs expressed in the creed are widely, but not universally, accepted. Since "other forms of Christianity" includes the various historical lost Christianities (citation: Bart D. Ehrman, Talk:Jesus#Bart Ehrman), it also provides a link to the previous paragraph's discussion of historicity. "Other forms" also refers to modern Latter-Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentacostals, and other bodies outside of the Nicene tradition, as well as some Christians outside of organized religion. archola 17:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
PS:The full title of Ehrman's book mentioned above is The Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew. archola 17:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into a debate over interpretations of the Nicene Creed, but the reference to John 3:16 seems redundant. Or at least confusing: it's not clear what's being cited to the creed, and what is being cited to the Gospel. (Of course, the creed itself is based on an interpretation of the Gospels, as well as the rest of the New Testament. "Life and Teachings" starts with Some other relevant verses, so John 3:16 might fit in better there.) Arch O. La 18:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I should clarify that the Nicene Creed citation was meant to cover everything between "Most Christians" and "Other Christians." After proposing the compromise, I stayed out of the debate over the finer points of theology re:atonement, salvation, sanctification, justification, et al. I'm a Lutheran, but CTSWyneken is better qualified to explain the Lutheran position than this lay believer. Arch O. La 02:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I'll not get into the debate here until the 2nd paragraph is settled. Since I haven't read the discussion, it really isn't fair for me to wade in, much less suggest, much, much less cbange anything. -- CTSWyneken 02:32, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I have made an emendation to the "Christian view of Jesus": Jesus is a member rather than part of the Holy Trinity. According to orthodox Christianity the Holy Trinity is not divisible into parts. Each divine Person is totus Deus, each having the fulness of deity. It is not the orthodox Christian view that Jesus is a third of God while the Father and the Holy Spirit are the other two thirds. There is no denomination of Christendom which publically believes and teaches that the Holy Trinity is divided up into parts. Of course, anything is possible. I would like to assist in editing this article as I am a Christian theologian dedicated, though, to Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I am glad, by the way, that the red neutrality flag has been removed. We want to try to make this article the best it can be in the greatest online encyclopedia. With all respect to all. drboisclair 01:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
That said, I doubt there will be much quibble over this one word. Arch O. La 03:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC) Addendum: God is beyond human understanding, and thus beyond words. Any words we use are only true in an approximate way, since, unlike God, language is not absolute. That said, some words are more true than others. Arch O. La 04:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey, if Rob can do it for SLurbenstein, than I can do it for Rob. Rob purports to speak from a strong scientific Athiest viewpoint. His remarks seem to go beyond that. Rather than ascribe motives that may be construed as personal attacks, I'll try to assume good faith.
I notice that Rob has remarked that some don't understand him or Wikipedia. Other editors have said the same about Rob. I have had trouble understanding him at times. Perhaps Rob ascribes a different meaning to some of the words both he and we use than many of the rest of us do; connotation if not denotation. It comes down to semantics; it can be very hard to communicate with someone if you don't even share the same language. That's why I feel we should all (Rob as well as the rest of us) be more careful to define what we mean.
Several editors have pointed out that Wikipedia's NPOV/UW policy need not represent tiny minority views. But consider Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial: Though 99% of the world may see something exactly the way you do, still your view is just one of many possible views that might be reasonably held." Discernment of what is reasonable comes down to academic credentials and majority consensus. We should be fair, and not give undue weight, but we should also be careful not to engage in the tyranny of the majority. Remember that the minority can feel persecuted even if the majority feels that this is not valid. On the talk pages, at least, we should be tolerant of all relevant points of view.
I've had a few hours to think this over as I reflected on the comments on this page. I'll get off my soapbox now. archola 04:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Note: The below is an extended rebuttal of Robsteadman's comments re: the first vote.
I do not accept that neatral historians (ie ones without "faith") agree he existed and there have still not been any such offered. -Rob
"faith" distorts views- Rob
it is unscientific and un-academic and whose with such views need to have their POV made clear. -Rob
Also there is no reason why the field cannot be extended to acadeics working in linked fields such as philosophy. -Rob
It does seem that Bible Scholars (almost exclusively self selecting because tyhey have a "faith") are being given preference of those who opt to work in fields that link but are not so focused. -Rob
I totally reject this rewrite as being NPOV - it is still biased. -rob
There is still no proof taht "jesus" existed- rob
only theories and possibilities, -rob
tied with hope and "faith". -rob
If we are to be encyclopedic and verifiable we need to state something along the lines of there is no proof. -rob
but Bible scholars and some beliving historians SUGGEST tere is sufficient evidence. SUGGEST is the key word. -rob
I would like POSSIBLY inserted before the dates in teh first paragraph as well. -rob
Until we have verifiable proof -rob
we cannot say he diod exist- -rob
only that some SUGGEST he did. -rob
Encyclopedic and verifiable. Robsteadman.
Wikipedia's policy on verifiability:
|
It all comes down to one word: reputable. The credentials of the scholars have been discussed at length. The crux of your disagreement is which scholars are reputable. You see theirs as exhibiting religious bias. They see yours as false authorites.
Who is right: is it you, or them? You've responded to them at length. It's time to examine your own views, your own words, your own behavior. Consider whether this applies to you, and consider also whether this is how others see you.
Finally, I submit to you that it is not religious faith in and of itself that distorts views, but rather emotion unguided by reason. Consider also that any professional scholar exhibiting such an emotional bias would soon be discredited by her or his peers. If this has not happened, it strengthens that scholar's reliability and credibility. To put it another way, that scholar has not been falsified. archola 08:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Didn't we have some discussion about some forum type place between historians who agreed Christ lived, and not all of them were Christian? Where did that discussion go, if Rob want's names, then it seems to me it'd be pretty easy to get them. Homestarmy 13:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Let's just get to the point. Robsteadman writes, "There is still no proof that "jesus" existed" and this one sentence says it all. The fact is, there are proofs that Jesus existed. This is verifiable; Robsteadman is verifiably wrong. Robsteadman is wrong in three different kinds of ways, and it is useful to keep these different ways of being wrong straight.
I have no doubt Robsteadman will say what I wrote is laughable. Nevertheless, every claim I have made about historians and philosophers is verifiable and all one needs to do is read the books to see - I have provided the sources. Robsteadman will continue to BS because he has no intention of reading or even looking at any of these books. So he will say that "There is no proof of God, that is an unverifiable claim." That is what he will say. here is what he means: "I will not even look to see if the sources you cite exist. I will not read them to verify your claims, or to find evidence that your claims are wrong. I do not need to read anything, because I already know the truth." If this is not dogmatic, then the word has no meaning. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
With all the fuss one person out of like 19 has created, (I notice the other 4 votes for against want to go even further away from mentioning the minority, which is probably ok in the end) are we ever going to be able to concentrate on improving this article without stopping for POV disputes? This seems so much like a tyranny by minority, it's really getting me down somewhat, and I get the feeling other people are getting unhappy too :/. Homestarmy 17:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I have enough of Slrubenstein's lies and misrepresentations. I am going to report this behaviour. As for others you are missing the point - the scholars who say he existed all seem to be those who follow the "faith" - off that? Robsteadman 18:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I think we understand what your saying quite clearly Rob, but can you name one person on your side who is not an atheist, humanist, existentialist, agnostic, materialist, whatever? Can you name any person in even the entire world who does not have a belief in something, much less someone who is critical of the existance of Jesus? And if not, what does that mean for a perspective which says that nobody who believes in anything can be a valid source historically? Homestarmy 18:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
No, atheism is NOT a "faith". Sorry but you're simply wrong. Robsteadman 19:06, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Pathetic - even the etymology of the words means "a lack of faith in god/s" http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/atheism/ - atheism is NOT "faith" - why are you trying to smear the rational with the nonsense of the irrational? Robsteadman 19:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
No, That's not what it means! Robsteadman 19:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Please! This is not the page to discuss whether atheism is a "faith" is not. Paul B 19:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Then an atheist actually has no faith that there is no God, and therefore has total commitment to the idea there is God? That can't be what it means either. Without faith that you are right, you can't actually believe in your perspective as being correct, so therefore, by what your saying, an atheist cannot believe that they are correct in saying "there is no God". That makes no sense, just because you say atheists don't believe that their right doesn't mean it's so. Homestarmy 19:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
And the campaign continues - got rid of SOPHIA now get rid of me.... truly outrageous behaviour. The above post is misleading, mispresenting and, in many parts, simply aggressive and abusive. Thanks for more evidence though. Robsteadman 10:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Ah, Paul, thank you - "likely" is key there - even those of "faith" only say "likely" not that he DID exist. That is why the intro and this article is POV and should be changed. Robsteadman 10:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
"Likely" is the best best scholarship can provide in any field. Str1977 10:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Not strictly true - for some characters of Nacient History there is REAL proof! So, let's get on with inserting some "likely"s, some "possibily"s and some "probably"s shall we? That might stop it being POV and all that I've been wanting all along. Genuine NPOV writing. Robsteadman 10:56, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Real proof that wouldn't stand against your kind of secepticism if you cared to dispute their existence in the way you disputed Jesus'. Str1977 11:24, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
But we state dates as fact not "possibly 4BCE-" That makes it POV as does, of course, the use of AD. And there are other things. Robsteadman 12:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
CTSWyneken, you should not bother asking Robsteadman for proof that someone existed (or didn't exist. That would be following Robsteadman as he again takes us off-track. As you yourself point out, it is simply not up to us editors to arbitrate what is true or what constitutes historical proof. This is forbidden by our NPOV and NOR policies. It doesn't matter whenter Robsteadman can provide proof or not. What is important is that he can provide verifiable sources for his claims, without violating NPOR. There is a difference between saying "X says Socrates lived, which proves Socrates really lived" and saying "According to X, Socrates really lived, for these reasons ..." The first violates NPOV. The second does not. There is also a difference between saying "I (an editor) know a, b, and c, which proves to me that Socrates existed" and "I (an editor) have read a book that claims Socrates existed." The first violates NOR, the second does not. In every instance, Robsteadman's statements are of the former sort (violating NPOV or NOR). Asking him for proof, or more proof, just compounds the violation. Let's just focus on verifiable sources.
Slrubenstein |
Talk 12:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Contemporary documents. Caesar appears on coins from teh time. Statues from teh time exist. There are documents that mention various people and happenings... but none of "jesus" and those taht suddenly appear many decades later are very similar to otehr mythologies and are written as part of dreams or to prove scrupture. There is no contemporary (or even non-gospel) record of the massacre of the innocents, the magi, the star in the east, the feeding of the 5,000.... and NONE of "jesus". Robsteadman 17:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I normally avoid commenting on this page for the simple fact that I have neither the time nor patience to take up arms and join the battle against Rob (please, poke all you want at that metaphor), but I did want to take a moment to give praise to the writers of the subsection Point, Counterpoint, and Wikipoint above. This was one of the most well constructed, well thought pieces of rhetoric that has been issued since Operation Robsteadman began a short while ago. I appreciate the fact that the subjects of this talk page have now been proven to have a better scope of discussion than the "I'm right, you're wrong!" material that had been flying between Rob and several other Wikipedians over the last few weeks.
I herald the opportunity for Wikipedians to join together to discuss differences in a rationally sound and rhetorically solid manner without resorting to backbiting and bickering. Perhaps other Wikipedians should be so wise as to take the time to process their thoughts before launching an assault or counterassault against one another. Whereas I gladly support any side which attempts to academically affirm my personal theories concerning Jesus Christ, I support even more so a forum for civil discussion, understanding that in any given room of one hundred given people of which I am one, 99% of those in the room will not share my opinion on every matter. -- Avery W. Krouse 20:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
previous discussion on this paragraph can be found in archives 26, 27, 29-31
Note: This first vote is on the historicity paragraph as cited below. Discussion on this version of the paragraph is located above. A second, line-item vote addresses specific objections raised during the first vote.
I'd like us to summarize where we would like this paragraph to go and our reasons for it. For the sake of clarity, let's please not rehash the argument above. Let's not engage each other for the moment and see if we can't come to something we can live with.
I'm for retaining the paragraph more or less as it is and finishing the documentation of the views. Why? It represents the consensus of scholarship in the disciplines of ancient history and Biblical Studies, yet gives voice to the minority view that has a lot of popular support and even some academic support from outside the discipline. -- CTSWyneken 11:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I would support the follwoing version and hereby ask for a consensus so we cna put this thign to bed once and for all:
The vast majority of critical Bible scholars and historians [2] hold that Jesus was a Jewish Galilean preacher and healer who was at odds with the Jewish religious authorities ( Sadducees and Pharisees), and who was crucified outside of Jerusalem during the rule of the Roman governor Pontius Pilate. [3] However, citing what they consider a lack of extant contemporaneous documents making references to him, [4] a small minority of others question the historicity of Jesus
.
I think this is a fair, NPOV and good compromise paragraph that is capable of gaining consensus and should be the "final" version. I just kept the small minority part referring to "others", because it should refer to the same parties as above (Bible scholars and historians) and there is no need to repeat oursevles (or add different parties) here. Also, given the fact that we are dealing with a small minority (fringe if you will) there is no good cause to go into greater detail regarding their arguments so I just kept it simple. I think we've discussed this more than enough and I think the fact that this POV is geting into the intro pargraph at all is more than enough to satisfy NPOV here. I ask for editors to signal that they accept or reject this version. Once we get consensus, then we can finally move on. Thanks. Gator (talk) 15:16, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Allright, I think we have more than enough for consensus for the 2d paragraph an I will edit it in shortly unless people think we should wait for more accept votes. We will all (even those who voted oppose) need to respect the consensus and enforce it if reverted. This issue is not closed forever, if someone wants to talk about it, but I hope that we have thoroughly hashed it out and that if do need to do this all over again that it will not be for some time. Thought? Gator (talk) 13:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
At least a month if not more. I'll do my best with the footbntes, but please forgive me if I screw that up. I'm still trying to figure those out. :) Gator (talk) 13:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I noticed your edits on the 2d paragraph. I hope you're aware that we've reached a strong consesn for that paragraph that will render your edits pretty much moot in a short while. I encourage you (if you haven't already) to offer your opinion here. I'd just hate to see you get upset when your edits will be replaced and enforced by a consensus that you may not have known was forming around that paragraph. Thanks. Gator (talk) 16:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
It should say "extant contemporaneous documents" to remove all doubt and double meaning. Factual. Verifiable. Unlike so much else in this article. Robsteadman 17:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Extant does mean lost as well as still existing. It is the correct word to use. It does not preclude future findings (I do look forward to all those documents that prove "jesus" did exist). Any other word would be nonsense. Robsteadman 19:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I inserted "what they consider" and later "suggestint" because the lack of sources is not fact but the POV of the adherents of this fringe view. Lack means "too few" or even "none" and this is inaccurate, at least POV. Str1977 11:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The whole point is there are no extent conmteporaneous documents - your edits were, at best, POV posturing and at worst minor vandalism. Robsteadman 17:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Here's what I have in light of the above "moving toward the exit" comments:
The
vast largemajority of critical Bible scholars and current historians [2] hold that Jesus was a Jewish Galilean preacher and healer who was at odds with the Jewish religious authorities (Sadducees and Pharisees), and who was crucified outside of Jerusalem during the rule of the Roman governor Pontius Pilate.[3] [2] However, citing what they consider a lack of extant contemporaneous documents making references to him, [4] asmallminority of others question the historicity of Jesus.[4]
Note: the final vote is
below.
Deletions proposed by CTSWyneken
Accept:
Reject:
Neutral:
Insertions proposed by CTSWyneken
Accept:
Reject:
Neutral:
Deletions proposed by Jayg
Accept:
Reject:
Neutral:
Additions proposed by Arch O. La
Accept:
Reject:
Neutral:
Deletions proposed by Archola (strikeout)
Accept:
Reject:
February 2006 (UTC)
Neutral:
More deletions by Robsteadman.
Accept:
Reject:
Neutral:
Any objections? -- CTSWyneken 19:18, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Looks good to me. Homestarmy 19:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The majority of critical Bible scholars hold that Jesus was a Jewish Galilean preacher and healer who was at odds with the Jewish religious authorities (Sadducees and Pharisees), and who was crucified outside of Jerusalem during the rule of the Roman governor Pontius Pilate.However, citing a lack of extant contemporaneous documents making references to him, a minority of others question the historicity of Jesus.
Otherwise it is POV
Robsteadman 19:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
No keep the citations - though they need to be updated as they are still dody in content and heavily biased, historians should be removed, many historians of the period (those without "faith") just don;t mention "jesus" as there is no proof of existence. Also the vast and small should be removed - this is an attempt to attach a POV to the descriptors - and is not totally accurate when neutral scholars are used and when a slightly wider field of scholars is permitted. Robsteadman 19:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
So everyone who says Christ existed "must" have faith and be a biased source? That's.....an interesting perspective..... Homestarmy 19:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I should perhaps explain my reasoning in more detail.
Rob: It's not about Athiests vs. Theists, it's about historians vs. nonhistorians. Excluding "historians" is POV because the paragraph is about historicity. " Critical Bible Scholars" are included because Higher Critics apply historical criticism by definition.
Superlatives: My objection to superlatives is less about the texts than about the meaning of the words. "Large," "vast" and "small" are ordinal measurements. You can say that vast > large > small, but you cannot (for example) say that 90% is vast and 89% is large. The meaning is somewhat subjective and hence POV. However, meaning (language) is also socially constructed, and hence I will respect the consensus definition. (Consensus is akin to finding the central tendency.)
"Current historians": This acknowledges that historical perspectives change over time, ie, metahistoricity. Arch O. La 22:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I accept it's not atheists v. theists (though it often is) it's balanced neutral scholarship against scholarship temptered by "faith". It is significant that an historian is a "believer" because they will tend to side in a particular way - I ask again, how many non-believer historians say that "jesus" existed? How can ANY NPOV historian say he existed and be taken seriously when tehre is NO evidence. Robsteadman 07:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
A technical question: How can I read the proposed footnotes? Str1977 11:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Folks, please stop taking Rob's bait. He is free to question the credentials of scholars - whether Biblical scholars or historians - but he needs to take up his problem with the people who grant those credentials...not Wikipedia editors. Make no mistake; his problem is with the methodology of the academy, and he needs to take his concerns there. Please stop taking his bait. KHM03 17:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Rob, by your definition no one is neutral. Consider that faith accepts God as an axiom, and that rationalism rests on its own axioms. Even Descartes stopped with "I think, therefore I am+—indicating that he still accepted self, thought, existence and the relation "therefore" as axioms. There are some things one just has to accept as true. We can disagree on which axioms to accept, but without axioms knowledge is impossible. That said, NPOV is meant to balance the approaches based on different axioms. We have the sources and we have their credentials; we can let readers decide for themselves who is biased, who is neutral and for that matter whether or not the majority is "vast," "large" or something else. Arch O. La 18:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Ha ha ha -very amusing. Robsteadman 08:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with stating all views as long as the background and basis for those views is made clear - a catholic priest who finds that "jesus" was historical is rather a weak and POV scholar. Robsteadman 08:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Verified and categorised if need be. "faith" schoalrs have such a huge POV that their "scholarship" has to be doubted. Robsteadman 08:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
The latter IS a question of "faith" but the former is not just plain historical as there is no historical evdience from teh period. Robsteadman 08:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you first point - but the second point has a place - yes show the facts, show who is stating what and what their camp of "faith" is and then the myth that "jesus" was historical will be exposed. Robsteadman 08:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Linking the myth of "goid" and the myth of "jesus" is a nonsense. There is no neutral contemporary evidence of "jesus" and there is no evidence of "god" - however they are separate issues. Robsteadman 08:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Archola, and though I disagree with Rob on whether there is evidence for God, I agree that this is a separate issue completely irrelavant here.
The only "evidence" are documents, written by people with a purpose, decades after the events -there are no contemporary documents! How can you, or anyone else, claim the contrary? Robsteadman 09:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
No the decades after is hugely significant - it would be today and was even more so then. And to state that those documents are supported elsewhere - there is no evidence of teh star in the eat, teh magi, the massacre of teh innocents... etc. Sorry but your point doesn;t hold water. Robsteadman 10:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Jospehus wrote decades later and it is accepted that the refs to "jesus" were inserted by others out to prove "jesus" existed some time later. I have not queired that Christianity exists - just that "jesus" is a fiction and that we should be presenting the facts - which, at the very least, throw doubt on to an historical "jesus". Turin Shroud!!! Amusing. So, go on, some contemporary proof of "jesus" existence, not theories and pontification... I won't hold my breath. Again we are witnessing christian protectionism. Let's see the FACTS. Robsteadman 10:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
On your comment far above Rob, what's this about "verified and categorized if need be"? Your telling me you have proof very last scholar in the entire world who ever existed and will ever exist and was or will be religious in any form purposefully and deliberatly attempted or will attempt to re-write history? Care to share this information? Homestarmy 17:14, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
We should link "question the historicity of Jesus" in the paragraph to Historicity_of_Jesus#The_idea_that_Jesus_never_existed, which is specifically about the nonexistence hypothesis. Our sources can also be used to clear up the "citation needed" tags there, in Historical Jesus and perhaps Jesus-Myth. Arch O. La 01:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a fair amount of support for "large majority" as a second-vote compromise between the proponents of "majority" and the proponents of "vast majority." Any comments (either here or in the voting comments above? Arch O. La 05:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Large nmajoty of bible scholars - yes - because of their POV bias. Large majority of historians/otehrs - no. Unproven. Robsteadman 14:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Their findings, as summarized in the Jesus Seminar article:
In summary: Jesus was born in Nazareth during the reign of Herod the Great, his mother was Mary and he had a human father who was probably not Joseph. He was baptized by John the Baptist who was later beheaded by Herod Antipas. He was an "itinerant sage who shared meals with social outcasts" and "practiced healing without the use of ancient medicine or magic, relieving afflictions we now consider psychosomatic" though some claimed he did this in the name of Beelzebul. He proclaimed the coming of "God's imperial rule". He was arrested in Jerusalem and crucified as a "public nuisance", specifically for overturning tables at Herod's Temple, not for claiming to be the Son of God, during the period of Pontius Pilate and Caiaphas. Belief in the resurrection is based on the visionary experiences of Paul, Peter, and Mary Magdalene.
Whither faith, Rob? This sounds like an entirely secular explanation to me. Arch O. La 21:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
As it has been claimed they DO exist, here's a space to name the docuemtns, from "jesus" lifetime, that refer to him taht we have today: Robsteadman 10:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Supporting these are quite a lot of sources (both tradition and relicts) that confirm the setting of the mentioned accounts, the mentioned persons (Pilate, Herod, Kajaphas, Pharisees and Saducees etc.)
Rob, please stop your personal vendetta against the methods and findings of scholarly, critical historiography. Or, if you can't, go to the university next to your place and discuss this with the members of the historical or the ancient department. Thanks. Str1977 11:21, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
As a counter challenge: May Rob please provide a least of contemporary extant documents that refer to Socrates, to "proof" that he did exist? Str1977 11:23, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
No - we should be reporting the verifiable and the factual - we can say what certain biased scholars have said but we must also report the FACTS even if they contradict the priests and others who have written scholarship. This clearly shows an attempt to restrict debate and is not in the spirit of WP. It also shows a refusal to accept the verifiable.Shameful. Robsteadman 12:14, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Ah, only certain "approved" views are relevant. The whole article is problematic as it is still POV. Good, good - thanks for the increasing quantities of evidence of protectionism. Robsteadman 12:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree that some scholars say he existed - I do not agree that they are revered (particularly those who come from a higely POV background such as being a priest). Our role is not only to say what such people have said (and, if needed, put that in context) but to present all verifiable fact about a subject. It is verifiable that there are no extant contemporary/contemporaneous documents and it is significant that, depsite this, the POV scholars still maintain "jesus" existed. It is not a fringe view that "jesus" didn't and, even if it was, we should be presenting the facts that we can verify. There is not one jot of contemporary evidence for his existence - we must report that... and PROMINENTLY. I am not trying to do something else - I am trying to make this an encyclopedic article based on the verifiable. A shame others are using it as a way of mirepresenting fact to support their POV. Totally shameful.
To tell people to ignore me is bullying at best. But thanks for even more prooof of the protectionism that is going on. Robsteadman 12:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Your post rather over states the situation - there are many ancient figures for whom there is some evidence (extant, contemporary) but for "jesus" (and that is what THIS article is about, there is none. Scripture proving, evangelising documents written decaes later are not proof to anyone (except those of "faith") and the fact they refer to events which are not documente elsewhere throws their reliability into further doubt. The balance of this article is wrong - yes say x scholars accept he existed (an give their background if this is significant) but we must present the verifiable facts - and that is that there are no extent documents and we know nothing about him, not even whether he existed - I contest the use of dates as POV. Robsteadman 12:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I intend to post the paragraph in the form below on Monday and revert to it up to two times a day, in respect for the consensus. Please examine it for honoring our votes above. I will hear only objections that it does not reflect that vote.
A large majority of critical Bible scholars and historians hold that Jesus was a Jewish Galilean preacher and healer who was at odds with the Jewish religious authorities (Sadducees and Pharisees), and who was crucified outside of Jerusalem during the rule of the Roman governor Pontius Pilate.[2] However, citing a lack of extant contemporaneous documents making references to him, a small minority of others question the historicity of Jesus.[3]
Fellow editors, does this reflect our majority votes? -- CTSWyneken 12:53, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I largely agree with it - however I still maintain that, however correct, the term "critical Bible scholars" will be misleading to the majority of average users. Is there no other way of wording that. I am also not convinced that it is only a small minority of others - it might be a small minoriyt of Bible scholars but it doesn't follow that it is a small mionority of everyone. Robsteadman 14:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Your last para SHOUL read: "The most influential person who was possibly born" ;-) Robsteadman 18:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
And yet, it does not ;-) Homestarmy 18:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Let's start with Juliius Caesar - inscriptions, documents, coins..... (unlike the myth put about by "christians" who claim there is more of "jc" than of JC. Robsteadman 14:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
WHen scientific research is funded by a particular body that research funding has to be stated for credibility. The POV has to be noted. The same needs to be with biblical scholarship - the POV behind the scholoarship shouod be made clear. Currently merely stating they are "scholars" is misleading if their research/scholarship has been written from a biased POV. Robsteadman 14:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
You've clearly ont been looking at my edits - what a shame you want to retain the POV slant this article currently has. Robsteadman 18:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Not been looking, I was like the only person who commented on them when you brought them to this talk page! And if what myself and almost everyone in this discussion is proposing this article read like is shameful, then let shamefulness ring! Pride is so over-rated anyway. Homestarmy 18:19, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
People, Rob baits everyone in his useless bantering. He does not answer specific questions asked of him, rather he goes off on repeated tangents that are meaningless. He scolds as if he is capable of scolding anyone without demonstrating an iota sense. Please ignore his consistent harping on the few drums he bangs. He does not address the article, but rather engages individuals in personal debates. Just let him have the last word; ignore what he says unless he speaks directly about a specific issue in the article; i.e. an edit. This page is turning into mush and needs to be brought back to the article. Storm Rider 20:53, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Re:Paul and Rob: I notice that Romulus and Remus both lists them as "Roman mythology" and provides dates. Rob, you can look at the dates in the Jesus article in the same light. Arch O. La 21:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC) Addendum: Also the quote at the bottom of that page: "Jesus and Romulus are simply two examples among many." Arch O. La 21:22, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Re: Str1977
Perhaps "assert" rather than "citing" or "noting" or "suggesting"? Asserting seems to me to be a neutral word that neither suggests that they are right or wrong. Arch O. La 21:56, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
But "cite" is the correct word for what these scholars do - assert is not. Note suggests some element of doubt. Suggest was nonsense. Robsteadman 08:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
On the contrary, Rob, "cite" is not what these scholars do (well they do it but that's not their main occupation) but it's what we do - we cite scholars saying this or that. We need a verb that denotes that this "lack of sources" is not a mere fact but already interpretation, hence I suggested "suggest", but I am also fine with any word that does the job, such as "assert". Str1977 10:01, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | → | Archive 40 |
I propose that this article not be in the category of Dead People Rumored to be Living, as it is contentious, lacking in NPOV, and highly offensive to orthodox Christians. -- Aaron Walden 10:17, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Im not entirely certain what that category means, does it mean people who supposedly never died, or people who may of died but then came back to life? Homestarmy 20:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Please keep all discussion here and votes (with summaries if desired) below.
I can go either way. I like short and to the point, but it does help to state the principle objections of the minority. If we were to reference the historicity article, then I could live with it. -- CTSWyneken 15:32, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Looks good. Can you fix the ref at the end, though?
Jpers36 15:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Done. Change to "accept" now? We need a clear consensus here if we ever hope to be able to move on. Gator (talk) 15:39, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
In general, I agree with the paragraph. However, speaking strictly as a recently minted journalist, I can see how the modifiers "vast" and "small" can be construed as POV. I might point out that the third paragraph simple refers to "most" and "other" Christians. "The majority" and "a minority" of critical Bible scholars and historians is probably sufficient.
I'd also like to point out that essentially the same point has a "citation needed" tag in the Jesus-Myth article. archola 15:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that Rossnixon has a point about "fringe views" (sorry to keep mentioning Socrates, but his page doesn't mention the "Fictional Construct of Plato" theory). On the other hand, I take CTSWyneken's remarks about a cottage industry on the Internet to heart. For that very reason, I think it's important to keep a reference to the Jesus-Myth folks (and others with a similar view) in the paragraph. archola 00:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
To Robsteadman, concerning his comments under "Reject":
::It seems that two users are rejecting because they want less mention of the fringe view. So here is my question, if the last sentence just read: "However, a small minority of others question the historicity of Jesus." (leaving out the reasons like the sentence originally looked) Would that create more consensus (causing rejects to go to accept or would it cause more accepts to reject? I am fine with it either way. Let me know and I can change the paragraph (nothing written in stoen just yet).
Gator
(talk) 13:39, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The problem with this, Archola, is that one can accept the Jesus myth as a way of explaining the origins of (and critiquing) Christian doctrine - while still believing a human being named Jesus preached in the Galilee in 1st century roman-Occupied Galilee. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that's fine, but I think we;re getting a consensus here and O don;t want to disruopt that by changing the paragraph too much unless I am sure that it won;t nmess things up?
How do people feel about the last sentence reading "However, a minority of others question the historicity of Jesus?" If I don;t hear too much feedbac, then it will stay the way it is in order to preserve the (developing) consensus. Gator (talk) 15:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with CTSWyneken. We can describe these people, some of whom are academics in other fields and others of whom are free-lance writers. And we should make clear that they are not trained classical or Biblical historians. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to go ahead and withdraw my proposed change. At this point, I think we either have or about to ave consensus on a paragraph that has lead to alot of fighting and hard feelings. Unless others want to propose another version of the above paragraph, I'm going to withdraw my change. Gator (talk) 18:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I think we're good here. Pretty soon we can declare consensus, edit it in and move on. Gator (talk) 18:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Sam, I certainly hope you do exist. I voted for Your adminship. archola 07:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I wrote in the article:
"No historian has ever said that Jesus never existed."
I think this statement should stay. It is the non historians who proclaim that Jesus never existed. ken 18:27, 14 February 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
Addendum: Here is what I recently read:
At first glance, the "Jesus-myth" seems to be a stroke of genius: To eliminate Christianity and any possibility of it being true, just eliminate the founder! The idea was first significantly publicized by a 19th-century German scholar named Bruno Bauer. Following Bauer, there were a few other supporters: Couchoud, Gurev, Augstein [Chars.JesJud 97-8]. Today the active believer is most likely to have waved in their faces one of four supporters of this thesis: The turn-of-the-century writer Arthur Drews; the myth-thesis' most prominent and prolific supporter, G. A. Wells, who has published five books on the subject; Earl Doherty, or Acharya S. Each of these writers takes slightly different approaches, but they all agree that a person named Jesus did not exist (or, Wells seems to have taken a view now that Jesus may have existed, but may as well not have).
Does the "Jesus-myth" have any scholarly support? In this case, to simply say "no" would be an exaggeration! Support for the "Jesus-myth" comes not from historians, but usually from writers operating far out of their field. G. A. Wells, for example, is a professor of German; Drews was a professor of mathematics; Acharya only has a lower degree in classics; Doherty has some qualifications, but clearly lacks the discipline of a true scholar. The greatest support for the "Jesus-myth" comes not from people who know the subject, but from popularizers and those who accept their work uncritically. It is this latter group that we are most likely to encounter - and sadly, arguments and evidence seldom faze them. In spite of the fact that relevant scholarly consenus is unanimous that the "Jesus-myth" is incorrect, it continues to be promulgated on a popular level as though it were absolutely proven. taken from: http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html
ken 18:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
Robsteadman still does not get our policies. It is simply not for a wikipedian editor to make any judgement whatsover as to the proof of Jesus's existence, or to say that historians have no proof. No historian in the world has "proof," they have "evidence." Moreover, Steadman continues to lie about these scholars claiming that they are expressing their faith. It is a lie and Steadman has no proof of this. I have asked repeatedly that he provide evidence, and Steadman has provided no evidence. He is a dogmatist driven by his own faith, which relieves him of the need to provide evidence for any of his claims. This attitude can only be destructive of the goals of our encyclopedia. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:47, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
encyclopedic
1) having to do with an encyclopedia
2) as with an encyclopedia, having a comprehensive scope, especially of information or knowledge (either in general or on a specific topic)
.
FYI I added the above
[1]
Slrubenstein |
Talk 09:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Archola, what if we applied 1 Peter 3:14-16 instead? It seems to me what this situation needs is a good, healthy dose of Biblical evangelism :D. Homestarmy 13:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
There may be some who use the mythological similarities to claim that Jesus never existed. However, I think most historians who refer to similarities between Christian beliefs about Jesus and beliefs about other gods during the Hellenic period believe that those beliefs influenced Christian beliefs and made Christianity appealing to a wider population - i.e. it is very relevant to critical histories of Christianity. But this is apart from the question of whether a human being named Jesus whom people believed to be a healer and who preached love existed in first century Galilee. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:11, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The thing about the mythology debate is that it can go either way, for instance, Christian's beliefs could of influenced other religions rather than the other way around, and religions before Christianity could of gotten influenced by the OT, which predicted Christ's coming. At the end of the day however, is it really that important to this article? Homestarmy 17:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Why not mention that the idea that Jesus is entirely mythical has been discussed and largely dismissed by academic historians? This is somewhat akin to saying that astronomers once believed in geocentricism, currently believe in heliocentricism and that geocentricism is now considered to be a fringe theory. This acknowledges both the debate among historians and the current concensus among historians. archola 00:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
And I've copied previous discussion on the third paragraph to Talk:Jesus/Christian views in intro. The archive dates back to Jan. 8, when the paragraph was added to the intro.
I don't mean to jump the gun, but when we are ready to move on, we might want to review the previous discussion. archola 10:59, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
A few introductory comments. The paragraph as it stands represents a compromise. We tried to come up with a description broad enough to cover all forms of Christianity. The reference to the Nicene Creed is mine; it acknowledges the historic and ongoing distinction between Nicene Christianity and its descendents on the one hand, and other forms of Christianity on the other. It also acknowledges that the beliefs expressed in the creed are widely, but not universally, accepted. Since "other forms of Christianity" includes the various historical lost Christianities (citation: Bart D. Ehrman, Talk:Jesus#Bart Ehrman), it also provides a link to the previous paragraph's discussion of historicity. "Other forms" also refers to modern Latter-Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentacostals, and other bodies outside of the Nicene tradition, as well as some Christians outside of organized religion. archola 17:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
PS:The full title of Ehrman's book mentioned above is The Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew. archola 17:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into a debate over interpretations of the Nicene Creed, but the reference to John 3:16 seems redundant. Or at least confusing: it's not clear what's being cited to the creed, and what is being cited to the Gospel. (Of course, the creed itself is based on an interpretation of the Gospels, as well as the rest of the New Testament. "Life and Teachings" starts with Some other relevant verses, so John 3:16 might fit in better there.) Arch O. La 18:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I should clarify that the Nicene Creed citation was meant to cover everything between "Most Christians" and "Other Christians." After proposing the compromise, I stayed out of the debate over the finer points of theology re:atonement, salvation, sanctification, justification, et al. I'm a Lutheran, but CTSWyneken is better qualified to explain the Lutheran position than this lay believer. Arch O. La 02:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I'll not get into the debate here until the 2nd paragraph is settled. Since I haven't read the discussion, it really isn't fair for me to wade in, much less suggest, much, much less cbange anything. -- CTSWyneken 02:32, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I have made an emendation to the "Christian view of Jesus": Jesus is a member rather than part of the Holy Trinity. According to orthodox Christianity the Holy Trinity is not divisible into parts. Each divine Person is totus Deus, each having the fulness of deity. It is not the orthodox Christian view that Jesus is a third of God while the Father and the Holy Spirit are the other two thirds. There is no denomination of Christendom which publically believes and teaches that the Holy Trinity is divided up into parts. Of course, anything is possible. I would like to assist in editing this article as I am a Christian theologian dedicated, though, to Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I am glad, by the way, that the red neutrality flag has been removed. We want to try to make this article the best it can be in the greatest online encyclopedia. With all respect to all. drboisclair 01:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
That said, I doubt there will be much quibble over this one word. Arch O. La 03:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC) Addendum: God is beyond human understanding, and thus beyond words. Any words we use are only true in an approximate way, since, unlike God, language is not absolute. That said, some words are more true than others. Arch O. La 04:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey, if Rob can do it for SLurbenstein, than I can do it for Rob. Rob purports to speak from a strong scientific Athiest viewpoint. His remarks seem to go beyond that. Rather than ascribe motives that may be construed as personal attacks, I'll try to assume good faith.
I notice that Rob has remarked that some don't understand him or Wikipedia. Other editors have said the same about Rob. I have had trouble understanding him at times. Perhaps Rob ascribes a different meaning to some of the words both he and we use than many of the rest of us do; connotation if not denotation. It comes down to semantics; it can be very hard to communicate with someone if you don't even share the same language. That's why I feel we should all (Rob as well as the rest of us) be more careful to define what we mean.
Several editors have pointed out that Wikipedia's NPOV/UW policy need not represent tiny minority views. But consider Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial: Though 99% of the world may see something exactly the way you do, still your view is just one of many possible views that might be reasonably held." Discernment of what is reasonable comes down to academic credentials and majority consensus. We should be fair, and not give undue weight, but we should also be careful not to engage in the tyranny of the majority. Remember that the minority can feel persecuted even if the majority feels that this is not valid. On the talk pages, at least, we should be tolerant of all relevant points of view.
I've had a few hours to think this over as I reflected on the comments on this page. I'll get off my soapbox now. archola 04:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Note: The below is an extended rebuttal of Robsteadman's comments re: the first vote.
I do not accept that neatral historians (ie ones without "faith") agree he existed and there have still not been any such offered. -Rob
"faith" distorts views- Rob
it is unscientific and un-academic and whose with such views need to have their POV made clear. -Rob
Also there is no reason why the field cannot be extended to acadeics working in linked fields such as philosophy. -Rob
It does seem that Bible Scholars (almost exclusively self selecting because tyhey have a "faith") are being given preference of those who opt to work in fields that link but are not so focused. -Rob
I totally reject this rewrite as being NPOV - it is still biased. -rob
There is still no proof taht "jesus" existed- rob
only theories and possibilities, -rob
tied with hope and "faith". -rob
If we are to be encyclopedic and verifiable we need to state something along the lines of there is no proof. -rob
but Bible scholars and some beliving historians SUGGEST tere is sufficient evidence. SUGGEST is the key word. -rob
I would like POSSIBLY inserted before the dates in teh first paragraph as well. -rob
Until we have verifiable proof -rob
we cannot say he diod exist- -rob
only that some SUGGEST he did. -rob
Encyclopedic and verifiable. Robsteadman.
Wikipedia's policy on verifiability:
|
It all comes down to one word: reputable. The credentials of the scholars have been discussed at length. The crux of your disagreement is which scholars are reputable. You see theirs as exhibiting religious bias. They see yours as false authorites.
Who is right: is it you, or them? You've responded to them at length. It's time to examine your own views, your own words, your own behavior. Consider whether this applies to you, and consider also whether this is how others see you.
Finally, I submit to you that it is not religious faith in and of itself that distorts views, but rather emotion unguided by reason. Consider also that any professional scholar exhibiting such an emotional bias would soon be discredited by her or his peers. If this has not happened, it strengthens that scholar's reliability and credibility. To put it another way, that scholar has not been falsified. archola 08:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Didn't we have some discussion about some forum type place between historians who agreed Christ lived, and not all of them were Christian? Where did that discussion go, if Rob want's names, then it seems to me it'd be pretty easy to get them. Homestarmy 13:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Let's just get to the point. Robsteadman writes, "There is still no proof that "jesus" existed" and this one sentence says it all. The fact is, there are proofs that Jesus existed. This is verifiable; Robsteadman is verifiably wrong. Robsteadman is wrong in three different kinds of ways, and it is useful to keep these different ways of being wrong straight.
I have no doubt Robsteadman will say what I wrote is laughable. Nevertheless, every claim I have made about historians and philosophers is verifiable and all one needs to do is read the books to see - I have provided the sources. Robsteadman will continue to BS because he has no intention of reading or even looking at any of these books. So he will say that "There is no proof of God, that is an unverifiable claim." That is what he will say. here is what he means: "I will not even look to see if the sources you cite exist. I will not read them to verify your claims, or to find evidence that your claims are wrong. I do not need to read anything, because I already know the truth." If this is not dogmatic, then the word has no meaning. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
With all the fuss one person out of like 19 has created, (I notice the other 4 votes for against want to go even further away from mentioning the minority, which is probably ok in the end) are we ever going to be able to concentrate on improving this article without stopping for POV disputes? This seems so much like a tyranny by minority, it's really getting me down somewhat, and I get the feeling other people are getting unhappy too :/. Homestarmy 17:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I have enough of Slrubenstein's lies and misrepresentations. I am going to report this behaviour. As for others you are missing the point - the scholars who say he existed all seem to be those who follow the "faith" - off that? Robsteadman 18:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I think we understand what your saying quite clearly Rob, but can you name one person on your side who is not an atheist, humanist, existentialist, agnostic, materialist, whatever? Can you name any person in even the entire world who does not have a belief in something, much less someone who is critical of the existance of Jesus? And if not, what does that mean for a perspective which says that nobody who believes in anything can be a valid source historically? Homestarmy 18:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
No, atheism is NOT a "faith". Sorry but you're simply wrong. Robsteadman 19:06, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Pathetic - even the etymology of the words means "a lack of faith in god/s" http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/atheism/ - atheism is NOT "faith" - why are you trying to smear the rational with the nonsense of the irrational? Robsteadman 19:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
No, That's not what it means! Robsteadman 19:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Please! This is not the page to discuss whether atheism is a "faith" is not. Paul B 19:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Then an atheist actually has no faith that there is no God, and therefore has total commitment to the idea there is God? That can't be what it means either. Without faith that you are right, you can't actually believe in your perspective as being correct, so therefore, by what your saying, an atheist cannot believe that they are correct in saying "there is no God". That makes no sense, just because you say atheists don't believe that their right doesn't mean it's so. Homestarmy 19:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
And the campaign continues - got rid of SOPHIA now get rid of me.... truly outrageous behaviour. The above post is misleading, mispresenting and, in many parts, simply aggressive and abusive. Thanks for more evidence though. Robsteadman 10:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Ah, Paul, thank you - "likely" is key there - even those of "faith" only say "likely" not that he DID exist. That is why the intro and this article is POV and should be changed. Robsteadman 10:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
"Likely" is the best best scholarship can provide in any field. Str1977 10:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Not strictly true - for some characters of Nacient History there is REAL proof! So, let's get on with inserting some "likely"s, some "possibily"s and some "probably"s shall we? That might stop it being POV and all that I've been wanting all along. Genuine NPOV writing. Robsteadman 10:56, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Real proof that wouldn't stand against your kind of secepticism if you cared to dispute their existence in the way you disputed Jesus'. Str1977 11:24, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
But we state dates as fact not "possibly 4BCE-" That makes it POV as does, of course, the use of AD. And there are other things. Robsteadman 12:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
CTSWyneken, you should not bother asking Robsteadman for proof that someone existed (or didn't exist. That would be following Robsteadman as he again takes us off-track. As you yourself point out, it is simply not up to us editors to arbitrate what is true or what constitutes historical proof. This is forbidden by our NPOV and NOR policies. It doesn't matter whenter Robsteadman can provide proof or not. What is important is that he can provide verifiable sources for his claims, without violating NPOR. There is a difference between saying "X says Socrates lived, which proves Socrates really lived" and saying "According to X, Socrates really lived, for these reasons ..." The first violates NPOV. The second does not. There is also a difference between saying "I (an editor) know a, b, and c, which proves to me that Socrates existed" and "I (an editor) have read a book that claims Socrates existed." The first violates NOR, the second does not. In every instance, Robsteadman's statements are of the former sort (violating NPOV or NOR). Asking him for proof, or more proof, just compounds the violation. Let's just focus on verifiable sources.
Slrubenstein |
Talk 12:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Contemporary documents. Caesar appears on coins from teh time. Statues from teh time exist. There are documents that mention various people and happenings... but none of "jesus" and those taht suddenly appear many decades later are very similar to otehr mythologies and are written as part of dreams or to prove scrupture. There is no contemporary (or even non-gospel) record of the massacre of the innocents, the magi, the star in the east, the feeding of the 5,000.... and NONE of "jesus". Robsteadman 17:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I normally avoid commenting on this page for the simple fact that I have neither the time nor patience to take up arms and join the battle against Rob (please, poke all you want at that metaphor), but I did want to take a moment to give praise to the writers of the subsection Point, Counterpoint, and Wikipoint above. This was one of the most well constructed, well thought pieces of rhetoric that has been issued since Operation Robsteadman began a short while ago. I appreciate the fact that the subjects of this talk page have now been proven to have a better scope of discussion than the "I'm right, you're wrong!" material that had been flying between Rob and several other Wikipedians over the last few weeks.
I herald the opportunity for Wikipedians to join together to discuss differences in a rationally sound and rhetorically solid manner without resorting to backbiting and bickering. Perhaps other Wikipedians should be so wise as to take the time to process their thoughts before launching an assault or counterassault against one another. Whereas I gladly support any side which attempts to academically affirm my personal theories concerning Jesus Christ, I support even more so a forum for civil discussion, understanding that in any given room of one hundred given people of which I am one, 99% of those in the room will not share my opinion on every matter. -- Avery W. Krouse 20:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
previous discussion on this paragraph can be found in archives 26, 27, 29-31
Note: This first vote is on the historicity paragraph as cited below. Discussion on this version of the paragraph is located above. A second, line-item vote addresses specific objections raised during the first vote.
I'd like us to summarize where we would like this paragraph to go and our reasons for it. For the sake of clarity, let's please not rehash the argument above. Let's not engage each other for the moment and see if we can't come to something we can live with.
I'm for retaining the paragraph more or less as it is and finishing the documentation of the views. Why? It represents the consensus of scholarship in the disciplines of ancient history and Biblical Studies, yet gives voice to the minority view that has a lot of popular support and even some academic support from outside the discipline. -- CTSWyneken 11:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I would support the follwoing version and hereby ask for a consensus so we cna put this thign to bed once and for all:
The vast majority of critical Bible scholars and historians [2] hold that Jesus was a Jewish Galilean preacher and healer who was at odds with the Jewish religious authorities ( Sadducees and Pharisees), and who was crucified outside of Jerusalem during the rule of the Roman governor Pontius Pilate. [3] However, citing what they consider a lack of extant contemporaneous documents making references to him, [4] a small minority of others question the historicity of Jesus
.
I think this is a fair, NPOV and good compromise paragraph that is capable of gaining consensus and should be the "final" version. I just kept the small minority part referring to "others", because it should refer to the same parties as above (Bible scholars and historians) and there is no need to repeat oursevles (or add different parties) here. Also, given the fact that we are dealing with a small minority (fringe if you will) there is no good cause to go into greater detail regarding their arguments so I just kept it simple. I think we've discussed this more than enough and I think the fact that this POV is geting into the intro pargraph at all is more than enough to satisfy NPOV here. I ask for editors to signal that they accept or reject this version. Once we get consensus, then we can finally move on. Thanks. Gator (talk) 15:16, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Allright, I think we have more than enough for consensus for the 2d paragraph an I will edit it in shortly unless people think we should wait for more accept votes. We will all (even those who voted oppose) need to respect the consensus and enforce it if reverted. This issue is not closed forever, if someone wants to talk about it, but I hope that we have thoroughly hashed it out and that if do need to do this all over again that it will not be for some time. Thought? Gator (talk) 13:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
At least a month if not more. I'll do my best with the footbntes, but please forgive me if I screw that up. I'm still trying to figure those out. :) Gator (talk) 13:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I noticed your edits on the 2d paragraph. I hope you're aware that we've reached a strong consesn for that paragraph that will render your edits pretty much moot in a short while. I encourage you (if you haven't already) to offer your opinion here. I'd just hate to see you get upset when your edits will be replaced and enforced by a consensus that you may not have known was forming around that paragraph. Thanks. Gator (talk) 16:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
It should say "extant contemporaneous documents" to remove all doubt and double meaning. Factual. Verifiable. Unlike so much else in this article. Robsteadman 17:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Extant does mean lost as well as still existing. It is the correct word to use. It does not preclude future findings (I do look forward to all those documents that prove "jesus" did exist). Any other word would be nonsense. Robsteadman 19:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I inserted "what they consider" and later "suggestint" because the lack of sources is not fact but the POV of the adherents of this fringe view. Lack means "too few" or even "none" and this is inaccurate, at least POV. Str1977 11:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The whole point is there are no extent conmteporaneous documents - your edits were, at best, POV posturing and at worst minor vandalism. Robsteadman 17:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Here's what I have in light of the above "moving toward the exit" comments:
The
vast largemajority of critical Bible scholars and current historians [2] hold that Jesus was a Jewish Galilean preacher and healer who was at odds with the Jewish religious authorities (Sadducees and Pharisees), and who was crucified outside of Jerusalem during the rule of the Roman governor Pontius Pilate.[3] [2] However, citing what they consider a lack of extant contemporaneous documents making references to him, [4] asmallminority of others question the historicity of Jesus.[4]
Note: the final vote is
below.
Deletions proposed by CTSWyneken
Accept:
Reject:
Neutral:
Insertions proposed by CTSWyneken
Accept:
Reject:
Neutral:
Deletions proposed by Jayg
Accept:
Reject:
Neutral:
Additions proposed by Arch O. La
Accept:
Reject:
Neutral:
Deletions proposed by Archola (strikeout)
Accept:
Reject:
February 2006 (UTC)
Neutral:
More deletions by Robsteadman.
Accept:
Reject:
Neutral:
Any objections? -- CTSWyneken 19:18, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Looks good to me. Homestarmy 19:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The majority of critical Bible scholars hold that Jesus was a Jewish Galilean preacher and healer who was at odds with the Jewish religious authorities (Sadducees and Pharisees), and who was crucified outside of Jerusalem during the rule of the Roman governor Pontius Pilate.However, citing a lack of extant contemporaneous documents making references to him, a minority of others question the historicity of Jesus.
Otherwise it is POV
Robsteadman 19:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
No keep the citations - though they need to be updated as they are still dody in content and heavily biased, historians should be removed, many historians of the period (those without "faith") just don;t mention "jesus" as there is no proof of existence. Also the vast and small should be removed - this is an attempt to attach a POV to the descriptors - and is not totally accurate when neutral scholars are used and when a slightly wider field of scholars is permitted. Robsteadman 19:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
So everyone who says Christ existed "must" have faith and be a biased source? That's.....an interesting perspective..... Homestarmy 19:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I should perhaps explain my reasoning in more detail.
Rob: It's not about Athiests vs. Theists, it's about historians vs. nonhistorians. Excluding "historians" is POV because the paragraph is about historicity. " Critical Bible Scholars" are included because Higher Critics apply historical criticism by definition.
Superlatives: My objection to superlatives is less about the texts than about the meaning of the words. "Large," "vast" and "small" are ordinal measurements. You can say that vast > large > small, but you cannot (for example) say that 90% is vast and 89% is large. The meaning is somewhat subjective and hence POV. However, meaning (language) is also socially constructed, and hence I will respect the consensus definition. (Consensus is akin to finding the central tendency.)
"Current historians": This acknowledges that historical perspectives change over time, ie, metahistoricity. Arch O. La 22:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I accept it's not atheists v. theists (though it often is) it's balanced neutral scholarship against scholarship temptered by "faith". It is significant that an historian is a "believer" because they will tend to side in a particular way - I ask again, how many non-believer historians say that "jesus" existed? How can ANY NPOV historian say he existed and be taken seriously when tehre is NO evidence. Robsteadman 07:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
A technical question: How can I read the proposed footnotes? Str1977 11:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Folks, please stop taking Rob's bait. He is free to question the credentials of scholars - whether Biblical scholars or historians - but he needs to take up his problem with the people who grant those credentials...not Wikipedia editors. Make no mistake; his problem is with the methodology of the academy, and he needs to take his concerns there. Please stop taking his bait. KHM03 17:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Rob, by your definition no one is neutral. Consider that faith accepts God as an axiom, and that rationalism rests on its own axioms. Even Descartes stopped with "I think, therefore I am+—indicating that he still accepted self, thought, existence and the relation "therefore" as axioms. There are some things one just has to accept as true. We can disagree on which axioms to accept, but without axioms knowledge is impossible. That said, NPOV is meant to balance the approaches based on different axioms. We have the sources and we have their credentials; we can let readers decide for themselves who is biased, who is neutral and for that matter whether or not the majority is "vast," "large" or something else. Arch O. La 18:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Ha ha ha -very amusing. Robsteadman 08:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with stating all views as long as the background and basis for those views is made clear - a catholic priest who finds that "jesus" was historical is rather a weak and POV scholar. Robsteadman 08:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Verified and categorised if need be. "faith" schoalrs have such a huge POV that their "scholarship" has to be doubted. Robsteadman 08:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
The latter IS a question of "faith" but the former is not just plain historical as there is no historical evdience from teh period. Robsteadman 08:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you first point - but the second point has a place - yes show the facts, show who is stating what and what their camp of "faith" is and then the myth that "jesus" was historical will be exposed. Robsteadman 08:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Linking the myth of "goid" and the myth of "jesus" is a nonsense. There is no neutral contemporary evidence of "jesus" and there is no evidence of "god" - however they are separate issues. Robsteadman 08:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Archola, and though I disagree with Rob on whether there is evidence for God, I agree that this is a separate issue completely irrelavant here.
The only "evidence" are documents, written by people with a purpose, decades after the events -there are no contemporary documents! How can you, or anyone else, claim the contrary? Robsteadman 09:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
No the decades after is hugely significant - it would be today and was even more so then. And to state that those documents are supported elsewhere - there is no evidence of teh star in the eat, teh magi, the massacre of teh innocents... etc. Sorry but your point doesn;t hold water. Robsteadman 10:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Jospehus wrote decades later and it is accepted that the refs to "jesus" were inserted by others out to prove "jesus" existed some time later. I have not queired that Christianity exists - just that "jesus" is a fiction and that we should be presenting the facts - which, at the very least, throw doubt on to an historical "jesus". Turin Shroud!!! Amusing. So, go on, some contemporary proof of "jesus" existence, not theories and pontification... I won't hold my breath. Again we are witnessing christian protectionism. Let's see the FACTS. Robsteadman 10:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
On your comment far above Rob, what's this about "verified and categorized if need be"? Your telling me you have proof very last scholar in the entire world who ever existed and will ever exist and was or will be religious in any form purposefully and deliberatly attempted or will attempt to re-write history? Care to share this information? Homestarmy 17:14, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
We should link "question the historicity of Jesus" in the paragraph to Historicity_of_Jesus#The_idea_that_Jesus_never_existed, which is specifically about the nonexistence hypothesis. Our sources can also be used to clear up the "citation needed" tags there, in Historical Jesus and perhaps Jesus-Myth. Arch O. La 01:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a fair amount of support for "large majority" as a second-vote compromise between the proponents of "majority" and the proponents of "vast majority." Any comments (either here or in the voting comments above? Arch O. La 05:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Large nmajoty of bible scholars - yes - because of their POV bias. Large majority of historians/otehrs - no. Unproven. Robsteadman 14:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Their findings, as summarized in the Jesus Seminar article:
In summary: Jesus was born in Nazareth during the reign of Herod the Great, his mother was Mary and he had a human father who was probably not Joseph. He was baptized by John the Baptist who was later beheaded by Herod Antipas. He was an "itinerant sage who shared meals with social outcasts" and "practiced healing without the use of ancient medicine or magic, relieving afflictions we now consider psychosomatic" though some claimed he did this in the name of Beelzebul. He proclaimed the coming of "God's imperial rule". He was arrested in Jerusalem and crucified as a "public nuisance", specifically for overturning tables at Herod's Temple, not for claiming to be the Son of God, during the period of Pontius Pilate and Caiaphas. Belief in the resurrection is based on the visionary experiences of Paul, Peter, and Mary Magdalene.
Whither faith, Rob? This sounds like an entirely secular explanation to me. Arch O. La 21:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
As it has been claimed they DO exist, here's a space to name the docuemtns, from "jesus" lifetime, that refer to him taht we have today: Robsteadman 10:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Supporting these are quite a lot of sources (both tradition and relicts) that confirm the setting of the mentioned accounts, the mentioned persons (Pilate, Herod, Kajaphas, Pharisees and Saducees etc.)
Rob, please stop your personal vendetta against the methods and findings of scholarly, critical historiography. Or, if you can't, go to the university next to your place and discuss this with the members of the historical or the ancient department. Thanks. Str1977 11:21, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
As a counter challenge: May Rob please provide a least of contemporary extant documents that refer to Socrates, to "proof" that he did exist? Str1977 11:23, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
No - we should be reporting the verifiable and the factual - we can say what certain biased scholars have said but we must also report the FACTS even if they contradict the priests and others who have written scholarship. This clearly shows an attempt to restrict debate and is not in the spirit of WP. It also shows a refusal to accept the verifiable.Shameful. Robsteadman 12:14, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Ah, only certain "approved" views are relevant. The whole article is problematic as it is still POV. Good, good - thanks for the increasing quantities of evidence of protectionism. Robsteadman 12:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree that some scholars say he existed - I do not agree that they are revered (particularly those who come from a higely POV background such as being a priest). Our role is not only to say what such people have said (and, if needed, put that in context) but to present all verifiable fact about a subject. It is verifiable that there are no extant contemporary/contemporaneous documents and it is significant that, depsite this, the POV scholars still maintain "jesus" existed. It is not a fringe view that "jesus" didn't and, even if it was, we should be presenting the facts that we can verify. There is not one jot of contemporary evidence for his existence - we must report that... and PROMINENTLY. I am not trying to do something else - I am trying to make this an encyclopedic article based on the verifiable. A shame others are using it as a way of mirepresenting fact to support their POV. Totally shameful.
To tell people to ignore me is bullying at best. But thanks for even more prooof of the protectionism that is going on. Robsteadman 12:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Your post rather over states the situation - there are many ancient figures for whom there is some evidence (extant, contemporary) but for "jesus" (and that is what THIS article is about, there is none. Scripture proving, evangelising documents written decaes later are not proof to anyone (except those of "faith") and the fact they refer to events which are not documente elsewhere throws their reliability into further doubt. The balance of this article is wrong - yes say x scholars accept he existed (an give their background if this is significant) but we must present the verifiable facts - and that is that there are no extent documents and we know nothing about him, not even whether he existed - I contest the use of dates as POV. Robsteadman 12:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I intend to post the paragraph in the form below on Monday and revert to it up to two times a day, in respect for the consensus. Please examine it for honoring our votes above. I will hear only objections that it does not reflect that vote.
A large majority of critical Bible scholars and historians hold that Jesus was a Jewish Galilean preacher and healer who was at odds with the Jewish religious authorities (Sadducees and Pharisees), and who was crucified outside of Jerusalem during the rule of the Roman governor Pontius Pilate.[2] However, citing a lack of extant contemporaneous documents making references to him, a small minority of others question the historicity of Jesus.[3]
Fellow editors, does this reflect our majority votes? -- CTSWyneken 12:53, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I largely agree with it - however I still maintain that, however correct, the term "critical Bible scholars" will be misleading to the majority of average users. Is there no other way of wording that. I am also not convinced that it is only a small minority of others - it might be a small minoriyt of Bible scholars but it doesn't follow that it is a small mionority of everyone. Robsteadman 14:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Your last para SHOUL read: "The most influential person who was possibly born" ;-) Robsteadman 18:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
And yet, it does not ;-) Homestarmy 18:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Let's start with Juliius Caesar - inscriptions, documents, coins..... (unlike the myth put about by "christians" who claim there is more of "jc" than of JC. Robsteadman 14:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
WHen scientific research is funded by a particular body that research funding has to be stated for credibility. The POV has to be noted. The same needs to be with biblical scholarship - the POV behind the scholoarship shouod be made clear. Currently merely stating they are "scholars" is misleading if their research/scholarship has been written from a biased POV. Robsteadman 14:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
You've clearly ont been looking at my edits - what a shame you want to retain the POV slant this article currently has. Robsteadman 18:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Not been looking, I was like the only person who commented on them when you brought them to this talk page! And if what myself and almost everyone in this discussion is proposing this article read like is shameful, then let shamefulness ring! Pride is so over-rated anyway. Homestarmy 18:19, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
People, Rob baits everyone in his useless bantering. He does not answer specific questions asked of him, rather he goes off on repeated tangents that are meaningless. He scolds as if he is capable of scolding anyone without demonstrating an iota sense. Please ignore his consistent harping on the few drums he bangs. He does not address the article, but rather engages individuals in personal debates. Just let him have the last word; ignore what he says unless he speaks directly about a specific issue in the article; i.e. an edit. This page is turning into mush and needs to be brought back to the article. Storm Rider 20:53, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Re:Paul and Rob: I notice that Romulus and Remus both lists them as "Roman mythology" and provides dates. Rob, you can look at the dates in the Jesus article in the same light. Arch O. La 21:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC) Addendum: Also the quote at the bottom of that page: "Jesus and Romulus are simply two examples among many." Arch O. La 21:22, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Re: Str1977
Perhaps "assert" rather than "citing" or "noting" or "suggesting"? Asserting seems to me to be a neutral word that neither suggests that they are right or wrong. Arch O. La 21:56, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
But "cite" is the correct word for what these scholars do - assert is not. Note suggests some element of doubt. Suggest was nonsense. Robsteadman 08:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
On the contrary, Rob, "cite" is not what these scholars do (well they do it but that's not their main occupation) but it's what we do - we cite scholars saying this or that. We need a verb that denotes that this "lack of sources" is not a mere fact but already interpretation, hence I suggested "suggest", but I am also fine with any word that does the job, such as "assert". Str1977 10:01, 20 February 2006 (UTC)