This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
summarizing genealogy: I removed links purporting to give the "ancestry of Jesus according to the Gospels of Matthew and Luke" as the two gospels give different genealogies. I called them "incompatible": Wesley prefers "not identical". I think it clear that if you hired two genealogists, and they gave your paternal grandfather two different names, the genealogies are incompatible.
The approach of most who claim that the Bible contains no errors is to say what neither Matthew nor Luke say: that one is Christ's genealogy through Joseph and the other his genealogy through Mary. They are that different. --Someone else 18:09 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)
They are incompatible if you assume he had the usual human sort of parentage of one human father and one human mother; given the premise of both Matthew and Luke that Jesus was born of a Virgin, and Matthew's explicit declaration that he was giving Joseph's genealogy, one is only left to wonder why Joseph's is given at all. John Chrysostom discusses this at length in his first four homilies on the Gospel of Matthew, as well as many other writers. See http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-10/npnf1-10-07.htm#TopOfPage. I think it's at least fair to acknowledge that the explanation is internally consistent, though you're welcome to question the premise of the Virgin birth. Wesley 22:39 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)
Overly romantic images removed until less emotional-evoking images can replace them. See previous discussion in archive. Image:Sorrow5.jpg Image:Glory1.jpg -- mav
I still do not understand how standard images, used by many denominations the world over in and hung in churches on every continent, are 'overly romantic'. And given the nature of crucifixion, how exactly do you propose to find "less emotional-evoking images" of the event? I find this decision perverse, illogical and absurd. STÓD/ÉÍRE 03:27 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC)
The debate moved beyond that issue, because there was general agreement that pictures should be in this article. The issue was which pictures. The 'controversial' Orthodox and RC images now have no opposition, apart from SI. The 'controversial' birth of Christ image again has moved from being a source of disagreement to one of acceptance. Other people have been examining other potential images, specifically ones which would represent other denominational impressions of Christ. I still find it perverse and puzzling that an image of Christ crucified, a central fact in his life treated as central to christianity in all its branches, is deemed 'overly romantic' and emotional. I have not heard one logical argument to justify the claim that Christ's execution is too POV to be represented in image form. Wiki has far more controversial POV images elsewhere. I cannot understand how an image of something believed in by billions in POV, overly romantic or emotional. It is simply the standard image. It has no decorative features, no wailing women, no circling angels, no John Wayne at the foot of the Cross muttered 'Aw! Truly he was the son of God!' It was chosen deliberately because it has no extras, just a cross with a guy on it, the stand iconographic image used for two millenia. And if the death of Christ is too controversial to be shown, why do we have piles of pictures of an American who got run over by a bulldozer, images of people who were killed, etc. Would we ban all images of the current war if we had access to them because they were 'overly emotional'. Rachel Corrie's death certainly is highly emotional controversial. Why are images of that judged NPOV and one traditional image the death of Jesus Christ, used by billions, POV? Please explain, because for all the talk here I have heard no convincing argument. (The only near convincing argument was that it could cause problems with browsers. I'm on a monstrously slow one and I've had no problem with image intense pages whatsoever.
BTW, SI I am not trying to make the page 'pretty'. I am trying to make it look professional, the sort of page in terms of its layout, readability and appeal that wikipedia should be aiming for. Pages of text, text and more text may be of interest to people who write them, but they are an instant turnoff to most people, who are intimidated by detail, unless it is laid out and designed in such a way as to make it visually attractive. And professionals who work in the field do that by embedding pictures in the text, their existence neutralising the otherwise overly intense look of a page that simply consists of text. If wiki wants to be accepted longterm as a serious and credible publication, it is going to have to make strong use of images on pages. Otherwise it is going to end up looking like a nineteenth century New York Times, with acres of text that because of its intensity may prove excessively daunting to readers who don't know about a topic and would like to find out more. It has nothing to do with making a page pretty and everything to do with making it look professional. Laying out text and 'photostyling' it is one of the things I have done professionally as a career. STÓD/ÉÍRE 04:05 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC)
STÓD/ÉÍRE, I don't think it is fair to say that there was general agreement that there should be images in this article. Some people may have been willing to compromise, but that doesn't indicate a liking of the use of images, just a desire for harmony. I read the general consensus at this stage to be against the use of images of Jesus, and very against the use of the images mav removed.
Having read the comments here, my view is changing towards no images being the better option. The impression the images give is just too subjective. The first two may seem OK to me, but it's clear they don't to others. I can understand that the first two images give the same impression to some as the later three do to me. So with that in mind I would prefer to see this article without images. -- sannse 17:54 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC)
Actually my view all along has been that the only image of JC we should have here is what modern scholars think JC looked like. I've seen a representation of this on television but I'm not sure how widely-accepted that image is. But the above arguments are convincing me that the best solution with the images we already have is to move them to a separate article about artistic representations of JC. The only reason I proposed a compromise was just to restore some WikiLove around here. But since the compromise isn't at all acceptable to the main person we have been arguing with here we might as well forget the compromise and do what we think is best for the article by moving all the images. I dare say there is a consensus on this point so some brave soul should finish what I started. -- mav
Absolutely NOT. They are images specificially designed for rosary pages websites and rosary publications. In fact they have been there long before they were put here. What is your problem? Sounds like an unambiguous case of POV which you have somehow managed to convince yourself is NPOV. STÓD/ÉÍRE 00:00 Mar 30, 2003 (UTC)
It depends on the context, Wesley. They are neutral images, in the sense that they cover specific non-denominational or rather multi-denominational beliefs - in Christ's birth, death and resurrection. Nothing in them is specific to Roman Catholicism; there are no popes popping up, no celebration of a Mass, they are simply images of aspects of christ's life. They come from a series of images that was designed with regard to the decades of the rosary in mind, which include many universal christian themes as well as some uniquely catholic ones. I deliberately chose to use only those that dealt with universally agreed christ stories on this page. On the rosary page, along with some from here I used ones that are specific to Roman catholicism in general and the rosary in particular, eg the coronation of the BVM. It is patently simple. Images can be NPOV in one context and POV in another, depending on the usage. If I had used a specific image exclusively associated with catholicism and dressed it up as a universal christian belief then that would be pov. I didn't. I used images accepted across the churches on a non-denominational page on Christ. On a page specific to Roman Catholicism I used some images specific to Roman Catholicism. Is the problem that you have a problem with Roman Catholicism, and cannot accept images of a Roman Catholic origin used in a general christian page? A couple of people, having read you comments have contacted me to wonder whether that is the problem. You certainly seem to have some major chip on your shoulder about these images and the fact that they come from a series of artworks associated with catholicism. You didn't want them here because they are too sentimentalised, which is an accusation often thrown against works of a catholic origin. You don't want them on the rosary page, because they aren't relevant, even though they show the very issues being meditated on in the decades. Most bizarrely of all, you want to keep an image of Our Lady of Lourdes. Now, given that apparitions are generally disregarded by non catholics as the work of overly emotional, overly sentimentalised minds, I would have thought Our Lady of Lourdes would be the most POV of all the images, as it represents an image of an apparition that many people believe was a figment of one young girl's imagination. But instead you are against representations that are generally of topics agreed by christians, and for the most exclusively catholic pov one. Maybe I missed something but logic seems to have fallen out of your argument a long time back. And maybe you should think as to whether you are mixing up your POV with NPOV and thinking if you believe it then it is NPOV and of course everyone else is biased and pov where they disagree with you. STÓD/ÉÍRE 06:20 Mar 31, 2003 (UTC)
Jesus spoke Aramaic, which is closely related to Hebrew and the common language of Galilee and Judea during his time. As a tradesman in the Hellenized Galilee, Jesus probably spoke passable, business Greek, and his study of the scriptures would acquaint him with Hebrew. Thus, in his life, he was most often called Yeshua.
Im not following the above passage very well.
Eh? Dietary Fiber
As I understand it:
It is similar to the current situation in Greece where:
Easier to understand now? User: Dimadick
I understand what is trying to be said but:
is not the way to say it
Why change "ca." to "~?" Slrubenstein
c. is fine I guess, circa written out just annoyed me Dietary Fiber
Regarding the opening paragraph: classical Christian teaching has been that Jesus' life, death and resurrection bring salvation to the entire world, not just to the human race, not just to those few humans who "accept him." From St Athanasius of Alexandria: "And thus He, the incorruptible Son of God, being conjoined with all by a like nature, naturally clothed all with incorruption, by the promise of the resurrection. For the actual corruption in death has no longer holding-ground against men, by reason of the Word, which by His one body has come to dwell among them." (On the Incarnation, section 9) No, this is not universalism, but the point is that what Jesus did he did for everyone, and that he also began healing the corruption in the created world as well. This is the theme not just in Athanasius' writings but most of the patristic writers, and of course has its grounding in the New Testament. Wesley 21:49 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)
So if I reject Christianity as a crock of $#@ and instead I become a discple of LeVey and the Satanists of Amerikkka, do I still go to heaven? I think its an important question because usually when I think of being "saved", I think of God saying, "Ok bad little bugger, I forgive you, here have some immortal and eternal happiness."; however, most Christians I know (of course maybe they aren't true Christians) seem to feel that if you don't accept Jesus then you are damned to eternal torture and misery, so you know, Im a little confused on whether Christ saves people that don't accept him as their lord and savior and the son of God and all that. Susan Mason
No Stephen, to bring salvation to the world through him. Many christian faiths are explicitly clear on that point. From born-again christians to Roman Catholicism, all are agreed on one thing; you have to accept Christ to be saved. Of course they all have their own brand of Christ. Born again christians long argued that unless you were born again into their brand of christianity, you could not be saved. The traditional catholic teaching was that 'outside the Church there is no salvation'. That changed somewhat post-Vatican II, though there was a partial reversion in Dominus Iesus. The basic christian belief is that Christ brought salvation to the world through his church (whichever one!), with people getting redemption not simply because he came to earth and 'died for our sins' but because me left a mechanism (a church) and a message, both of which if followed would provide redemption. If you didn't. you were doomed. STÓD/ÉÍRE 03:37 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)
I added the possibility of to the sentence. Does this please everyone/anyone? Tuf-Kat
It floats my boat. Susan Mason
In many situations a gift cannot be rejected (or can be rejected only with serious costs) -- I do not think this metaphor is any improvement. Slrubenstein
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
summarizing genealogy: I removed links purporting to give the "ancestry of Jesus according to the Gospels of Matthew and Luke" as the two gospels give different genealogies. I called them "incompatible": Wesley prefers "not identical". I think it clear that if you hired two genealogists, and they gave your paternal grandfather two different names, the genealogies are incompatible.
The approach of most who claim that the Bible contains no errors is to say what neither Matthew nor Luke say: that one is Christ's genealogy through Joseph and the other his genealogy through Mary. They are that different. --Someone else 18:09 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)
They are incompatible if you assume he had the usual human sort of parentage of one human father and one human mother; given the premise of both Matthew and Luke that Jesus was born of a Virgin, and Matthew's explicit declaration that he was giving Joseph's genealogy, one is only left to wonder why Joseph's is given at all. John Chrysostom discusses this at length in his first four homilies on the Gospel of Matthew, as well as many other writers. See http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-10/npnf1-10-07.htm#TopOfPage. I think it's at least fair to acknowledge that the explanation is internally consistent, though you're welcome to question the premise of the Virgin birth. Wesley 22:39 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)
Overly romantic images removed until less emotional-evoking images can replace them. See previous discussion in archive. Image:Sorrow5.jpg Image:Glory1.jpg -- mav
I still do not understand how standard images, used by many denominations the world over in and hung in churches on every continent, are 'overly romantic'. And given the nature of crucifixion, how exactly do you propose to find "less emotional-evoking images" of the event? I find this decision perverse, illogical and absurd. STÓD/ÉÍRE 03:27 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC)
The debate moved beyond that issue, because there was general agreement that pictures should be in this article. The issue was which pictures. The 'controversial' Orthodox and RC images now have no opposition, apart from SI. The 'controversial' birth of Christ image again has moved from being a source of disagreement to one of acceptance. Other people have been examining other potential images, specifically ones which would represent other denominational impressions of Christ. I still find it perverse and puzzling that an image of Christ crucified, a central fact in his life treated as central to christianity in all its branches, is deemed 'overly romantic' and emotional. I have not heard one logical argument to justify the claim that Christ's execution is too POV to be represented in image form. Wiki has far more controversial POV images elsewhere. I cannot understand how an image of something believed in by billions in POV, overly romantic or emotional. It is simply the standard image. It has no decorative features, no wailing women, no circling angels, no John Wayne at the foot of the Cross muttered 'Aw! Truly he was the son of God!' It was chosen deliberately because it has no extras, just a cross with a guy on it, the stand iconographic image used for two millenia. And if the death of Christ is too controversial to be shown, why do we have piles of pictures of an American who got run over by a bulldozer, images of people who were killed, etc. Would we ban all images of the current war if we had access to them because they were 'overly emotional'. Rachel Corrie's death certainly is highly emotional controversial. Why are images of that judged NPOV and one traditional image the death of Jesus Christ, used by billions, POV? Please explain, because for all the talk here I have heard no convincing argument. (The only near convincing argument was that it could cause problems with browsers. I'm on a monstrously slow one and I've had no problem with image intense pages whatsoever.
BTW, SI I am not trying to make the page 'pretty'. I am trying to make it look professional, the sort of page in terms of its layout, readability and appeal that wikipedia should be aiming for. Pages of text, text and more text may be of interest to people who write them, but they are an instant turnoff to most people, who are intimidated by detail, unless it is laid out and designed in such a way as to make it visually attractive. And professionals who work in the field do that by embedding pictures in the text, their existence neutralising the otherwise overly intense look of a page that simply consists of text. If wiki wants to be accepted longterm as a serious and credible publication, it is going to have to make strong use of images on pages. Otherwise it is going to end up looking like a nineteenth century New York Times, with acres of text that because of its intensity may prove excessively daunting to readers who don't know about a topic and would like to find out more. It has nothing to do with making a page pretty and everything to do with making it look professional. Laying out text and 'photostyling' it is one of the things I have done professionally as a career. STÓD/ÉÍRE 04:05 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC)
STÓD/ÉÍRE, I don't think it is fair to say that there was general agreement that there should be images in this article. Some people may have been willing to compromise, but that doesn't indicate a liking of the use of images, just a desire for harmony. I read the general consensus at this stage to be against the use of images of Jesus, and very against the use of the images mav removed.
Having read the comments here, my view is changing towards no images being the better option. The impression the images give is just too subjective. The first two may seem OK to me, but it's clear they don't to others. I can understand that the first two images give the same impression to some as the later three do to me. So with that in mind I would prefer to see this article without images. -- sannse 17:54 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC)
Actually my view all along has been that the only image of JC we should have here is what modern scholars think JC looked like. I've seen a representation of this on television but I'm not sure how widely-accepted that image is. But the above arguments are convincing me that the best solution with the images we already have is to move them to a separate article about artistic representations of JC. The only reason I proposed a compromise was just to restore some WikiLove around here. But since the compromise isn't at all acceptable to the main person we have been arguing with here we might as well forget the compromise and do what we think is best for the article by moving all the images. I dare say there is a consensus on this point so some brave soul should finish what I started. -- mav
Absolutely NOT. They are images specificially designed for rosary pages websites and rosary publications. In fact they have been there long before they were put here. What is your problem? Sounds like an unambiguous case of POV which you have somehow managed to convince yourself is NPOV. STÓD/ÉÍRE 00:00 Mar 30, 2003 (UTC)
It depends on the context, Wesley. They are neutral images, in the sense that they cover specific non-denominational or rather multi-denominational beliefs - in Christ's birth, death and resurrection. Nothing in them is specific to Roman Catholicism; there are no popes popping up, no celebration of a Mass, they are simply images of aspects of christ's life. They come from a series of images that was designed with regard to the decades of the rosary in mind, which include many universal christian themes as well as some uniquely catholic ones. I deliberately chose to use only those that dealt with universally agreed christ stories on this page. On the rosary page, along with some from here I used ones that are specific to Roman catholicism in general and the rosary in particular, eg the coronation of the BVM. It is patently simple. Images can be NPOV in one context and POV in another, depending on the usage. If I had used a specific image exclusively associated with catholicism and dressed it up as a universal christian belief then that would be pov. I didn't. I used images accepted across the churches on a non-denominational page on Christ. On a page specific to Roman Catholicism I used some images specific to Roman Catholicism. Is the problem that you have a problem with Roman Catholicism, and cannot accept images of a Roman Catholic origin used in a general christian page? A couple of people, having read you comments have contacted me to wonder whether that is the problem. You certainly seem to have some major chip on your shoulder about these images and the fact that they come from a series of artworks associated with catholicism. You didn't want them here because they are too sentimentalised, which is an accusation often thrown against works of a catholic origin. You don't want them on the rosary page, because they aren't relevant, even though they show the very issues being meditated on in the decades. Most bizarrely of all, you want to keep an image of Our Lady of Lourdes. Now, given that apparitions are generally disregarded by non catholics as the work of overly emotional, overly sentimentalised minds, I would have thought Our Lady of Lourdes would be the most POV of all the images, as it represents an image of an apparition that many people believe was a figment of one young girl's imagination. But instead you are against representations that are generally of topics agreed by christians, and for the most exclusively catholic pov one. Maybe I missed something but logic seems to have fallen out of your argument a long time back. And maybe you should think as to whether you are mixing up your POV with NPOV and thinking if you believe it then it is NPOV and of course everyone else is biased and pov where they disagree with you. STÓD/ÉÍRE 06:20 Mar 31, 2003 (UTC)
Jesus spoke Aramaic, which is closely related to Hebrew and the common language of Galilee and Judea during his time. As a tradesman in the Hellenized Galilee, Jesus probably spoke passable, business Greek, and his study of the scriptures would acquaint him with Hebrew. Thus, in his life, he was most often called Yeshua.
Im not following the above passage very well.
Eh? Dietary Fiber
As I understand it:
It is similar to the current situation in Greece where:
Easier to understand now? User: Dimadick
I understand what is trying to be said but:
is not the way to say it
Why change "ca." to "~?" Slrubenstein
c. is fine I guess, circa written out just annoyed me Dietary Fiber
Regarding the opening paragraph: classical Christian teaching has been that Jesus' life, death and resurrection bring salvation to the entire world, not just to the human race, not just to those few humans who "accept him." From St Athanasius of Alexandria: "And thus He, the incorruptible Son of God, being conjoined with all by a like nature, naturally clothed all with incorruption, by the promise of the resurrection. For the actual corruption in death has no longer holding-ground against men, by reason of the Word, which by His one body has come to dwell among them." (On the Incarnation, section 9) No, this is not universalism, but the point is that what Jesus did he did for everyone, and that he also began healing the corruption in the created world as well. This is the theme not just in Athanasius' writings but most of the patristic writers, and of course has its grounding in the New Testament. Wesley 21:49 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)
So if I reject Christianity as a crock of $#@ and instead I become a discple of LeVey and the Satanists of Amerikkka, do I still go to heaven? I think its an important question because usually when I think of being "saved", I think of God saying, "Ok bad little bugger, I forgive you, here have some immortal and eternal happiness."; however, most Christians I know (of course maybe they aren't true Christians) seem to feel that if you don't accept Jesus then you are damned to eternal torture and misery, so you know, Im a little confused on whether Christ saves people that don't accept him as their lord and savior and the son of God and all that. Susan Mason
No Stephen, to bring salvation to the world through him. Many christian faiths are explicitly clear on that point. From born-again christians to Roman Catholicism, all are agreed on one thing; you have to accept Christ to be saved. Of course they all have their own brand of Christ. Born again christians long argued that unless you were born again into their brand of christianity, you could not be saved. The traditional catholic teaching was that 'outside the Church there is no salvation'. That changed somewhat post-Vatican II, though there was a partial reversion in Dominus Iesus. The basic christian belief is that Christ brought salvation to the world through his church (whichever one!), with people getting redemption not simply because he came to earth and 'died for our sins' but because me left a mechanism (a church) and a message, both of which if followed would provide redemption. If you didn't. you were doomed. STÓD/ÉÍRE 03:37 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)
I added the possibility of to the sentence. Does this please everyone/anyone? Tuf-Kat
It floats my boat. Susan Mason
In many situations a gift cannot be rejected (or can be rejected only with serious costs) -- I do not think this metaphor is any improvement. Slrubenstein