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Remove the part about Jesus being a prophet of Islam and Bahá'í, its stupid to mention that since Bahá'í and Islam faiths are contradictory to the teachings of JEsus who says that the only way to God is through him. That means you can't mix Christianity with anything else.. I see the mentioning of Bahá'í and Islam at the top as a form of advertisement for those faiths, its and effort to gain more acceptance from Christians and non-Christians who are easily misled.
Of course people these days mix religions without really understanding the religions at all, as if its like playdough.. Create your own religion from your own hands. Christians would say all other faiths are man-made.. At the very least put the references to Islam and Bahá'í at the bottom with all the other Christian inspired cults. hindu and their religion have nothing to do with juses.Hindu avater or someting like that this is only because the want to show to the christen world (dominate religion) they ractify them only because they bow their head to any dominate power of the time.this is only single reason to write something about jesus .do remove this proclamation of Hindu's which is baseless
Why have Bahá'í so close to the top, Bahá'í worshippers would denounce Christ as the only path to God which is what most all Christians believe, and if they don't then can they say they are? Also I don't believe Islam should be mentioned too close to the top. This creates a kind of advertisement for these faiths, and should remain at the bottom just like all the others. If you are going to talk about Christ, talk about Christ, don't try to put advertisements for faiths and denominations at the top.. An Advertisement, adverts people elsewhere, that's what it is.. Secularists tend to want to make everything the same for fear that if there was any dispurportion or bias it would create riots.. Note in the bible Christ says he would bring brother against brother, the purpose for that is that there would be disagreements, you can't make everyone agree.. Christ says his way is the narrow path.. If you go through every prophet, its not narrow is it? Either represent Christ correctly or don't represent him at all!! If you remove this message at least give me your reasons for removing this text, if you have no other reasons and feel it would be upsetting, then why post Christ here if its upsetting, having Christ here on Wikipedia isn't going to release him from existence, he exists whether you want him to or not, he is not just a man, he is God. But you have complete control over what you do until death, after death who does? -- Kiernan Holland 1:01, 27 July 2005 (MST)
It doesnt matter what christians believe jesus said. They could be wrong as well. Maybe jesus never said the only way to god is thru him. Nobody knows. Tell me one thing, how can you put all but one religion at the bottom? Unless you make 20 headings called "Christianity", almost half of the religions have to be closer to the top than the bottom (if you think logically). Why are you so passionate about this anyways? What's wrong with having an article about jesus on wikipedia? We can't write about jesus from the catholic POV only as that would be against wikipedia policies.-- 81.60.81.89 20:21, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Copied from User Talk:JimWae by Jim.
Catholicism does not preach a ‘works’ salvation. They hold that it is necessary to accept grace, merited by the Passion of Christ, to be justified. See catechism. The link you provided showed that this justification is available to all. I ask you to withdraw your revert. The Lutheran-Catholic joint declaration [1] [2] shows that there is little or no difference between these churches on this issue. -- ClemMcGann 21:21, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Since the catechism link is to a long page on which the same words appear many times, perrhpas you could provide the relevant point numbers. The link I provided does not mention grace, so secondly, I have to wonder if the catechism is the ONLY official interpretation. Thirdly, how does a non-Xian freely accept Xian grace? (Perhaps that is another mystery, but from further reading, it appears the word "accept" is not needed.) -- JimWae 22:25, 2005 July 18 (UTC)-- JimWae 22:49, 2005 July 18 (UTC)
Yes, my link does mention grace. I should have extended my remark to say it does not say "accept grace". It says "receive grace" which changes things considerably - without resort to further mystery. Catholics do not believe faith alone (without good action) is sufficient for salvation. I will not look for a source, but let another do so - delete it if you wish.-- JimWae 23:29, 2005 July 18 (UTC)
I'd change it to
I accept your argument regarding my edit,
I suppose it is more an early confirmation of the writings and beliefs rather than source material. But where is your assessment that it was 390? I believe it may have been as early as 1st Century. -- Noitall 04:42, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
As you likely are aware, the creeds were likely written in response to heresies. It took a while for a hierarchy to emerge that could command other teachings (even Gnosticism) as heresy - and parts seem to be about heresies later than Gnosticism - if it had been in place earlier, there'd have been more clarity of doctrine to preclude such heresies & there'd have been less disagreement over the Holy Ghost, the Trinity, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the virgin birth. It is, I suppose, compatible with pre-Nicene teachings, but...
The 390 year regards a written form and comes from
Early fragments of creeds have been discovered which declare simply:
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm
It's also unclear whether it was a precursor to other creeds, a later simplification for children, or something that grew up alongside the others. The Nicene Creed is too complex for kids or those "just learning". Anyway, dating it - even as "likely" - is probably an inconclusive task. -- JimWae 06:00, 2005 July 20 (UTC)
Good analysis. You should put it on the Apostles' Creed page. -- Noitall 01:39, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
Dear Jayik,
Perhaps your editing on 21 July happens to have crossed with mine. Perhaps not. I am very happy for anyone who has something to say about Christian subjects to add this to the Christian perspective, providing always the Christian perspective is being stated first and sufficiently fully and clearly. Moreover that the accounts we derive from the Gospel and the rest of the Bible are stated first, then the Church's teaching, thereafter modern scholars' hypotheses. Unless, someone wants to put the cart before the horse and discuss hypotheses before knowing what they query.
At present the contributors to this article strenously exclude, and keep on editing out, snippets that may help the non-Christian to get a notion as to why people have died a martyr's death, and joyfully so, for the Christian belief. Did they endure being tortured to death because Jesus is the central figure in Christianity? or because another religion regards him as a great prophet? And just in case the modern source hypotheses scholars got it wrong – and truth does not depend on a head count –, would it not be a more balanced presentation to state first the ancient tradition concerning the apostolic origin of the canonical Gospel accounts? Or is this not a neutral point of view, because it is being maintained by the Catholic Church rather than some other religion?
Wikipedia needs to be watchful that its lofty standards do not get violated even and especially in articles dealing with religious beliefs!
Portress 22:49, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
P.S. I have just noticed that my earlier addition to the introductory paragraph has been deleted wherein I mentioned that the correct understanding of the details of the trial and death of Jesus is a hotly debated subject and that their misunderstanding has resulted during the past 2000 years in the shedding of the blood of many who had not been present at the events. Now why should this have been removed? Does anyone want to deny the truth of my assertion? Is it not of the foremost pertinence to the Jewish-Christian dialogue? Have Catholics no right to acknowledge this prominently (cf. Nostra Aetate Section 4 paras 6-7 in Flannery's edition, Vol. I, p. 741)? Who feels offended by this being mentioned? Who considers it irrelevant in the context of the present subject? There is no neutral point of view in religious beliefs, only a balanced presentation; and this terrible issue adds to the balance of this article.
Portress 23:42, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Wish I could help you, but I have no idea how many articles have Jesus in the title - as far as I know there are articles with titles only slightly variant from Jewish view of Jesus & Religious perspectives on Jesus & New Testament view of Jesus & New Testament views of Jesus & Jesus according to the New Testament & Christian perspectives of Jesus & Mormon view of Jesus. Everybody wants to have an article with their version of the truth in it. Try this: List of Jesus-related articles Branch articles are created when a section gets too long -- JimWae 09:02, 2005 July 22 (UTC)
I have added some stuff back to the lead section that I feel is neutral, and also helpful.
With regards to the paragraph:
I feel that this would do better in the main article, and not the lead section.
I have restored quite a few edits removed. A lot of them were very reasonable. - Ta bu shi da yu 05:47, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Further:
I have replaced:
with
You tell me which is more neutral! The first has unsourced speculation and statements. The second has sourced and more neutral writing. It doesn't speculate, it only mentions what was said in the Gospel accounts. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:05, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Hello, Mr. Wae,
I see your edit summary about an edit of mine, and I have a question. (You actually reverted, and maybe should include "rv" or "revert" in the comments, as I noticed you reversed my spelling correction.)
I make reference to your comments here: Revision as of 07:12, 23 July 2005 JimWae (Talk | contribs) Off topic here - already dealt with in Christianity section of this article - and what's there is a bit different from the view removed
1 - First, regarding your comment, "Off topic here", I understand your first concern to be that you think I placed my clarification in the wrong section. At the time of my edit, this seemed an appropriate section, because these quotations of Jesus were His teachings, however, I think you may have a good point. These views would also be Christian beliefs also. Before you would edit and reverse my edits, please review my three points.
2 - Next, you state that my clarification was "already dealt with in Christianity section of this article." You seem to be correct, but I felt that this clarification seemed necessary to highlight a distinction in the "faith vs works" in their Christian beliefs. I still feel that way, and I hope you consider this in your review of my more recent edit.
3 - My main question revolves around your comments above that "and what's there is a bit different from the view removed." This would seem to imply either one of two things.
Thank you in advance. I do not have time for protracted "edit discussion" or "edit wars." I am hoping to add clarification on points that are not easily intuitive or understood and would hope that you would concur to provide this useful information to the readers on the subtle shades and points of the beliefs systems. If I have erred, please make clarifications or corrections, but please include as much useful information as is possible. ~ For example, if you think that the view I stated is not held by all Christians, please make distinctions and clarifications on which Christians do not hold these beliefs, and change the article to reflect the current information.
I hope I was helpful to your page.-- GordonWattsDotCom 08:30, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Re:
I will explain again more
I tried to get the two sentences to say exactly what they mean, perhaps it could be done in a better way. Here is what I tried to say in these two sentences:
(you wrote) The lead is discussing Jesus & whatever we know about him. We "know" very little about Jesus from the GoT - (only partly because it is read by few) - but likely we would "know" little more anyway - though we might have a few more things to speculate about. It adds to speculation, but does not improve what we "know" about him.
(you wrote) The G of T will not likely ever become a primary source.
Thanks,
Scott P. 21:15, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
You do not have to say it all in the lead. I had introduced the topic in the lead (which you deleted). I have tried again - but doubt other editors will let specific mention of Thomas stand in lead, but if "the dozen" stays, you have an opening to discuss it in the main body -- Actually you do not even need that in the lead to discuss it in main article-- JimWae 21:23, 2005 July 23 (UTC)
In the opening section, it is stated that most scholars believe two things
In contrast, I maintain the following:
This opens a whole other set of concerns. First of all, di the authors of the Gospels have the same understanding of "historical reliability" that we do? If so, no problem -- but if not, if they applied other criteria to determine the "truthfulness" of a text, then the fact that the atuhors of the Gospels claimed that they were truthful does not mean that by our own criteria they are historically accurate. In your quote above, you suggest historians distinguish between "legendary accounts" and soemthing else (historical accounts?) But what if people back then did not make this distinction? Or if instead of distinguishing between legendary accounts and historical accounts, they further distinguished between five other kinds of accounts we don't even recognize? All I am saying is that understaning what the Gospel authors thought about their own writings may not be at all obvious. For example, some people may have sincerely believed that they had an encounter with Jesus after he was crucified, and that this is proof of his resurrection. The claim "the author of the text believed this" may be accurate. But that doesn't mean that the what the author believed happened is an accurate account of what happened. Second, what are you referring to as "these writings?" Most scholars mnay agree that the Gospels were originally written down by the second century. But do we actually have these original texts? If we rely on later manuscripts, how do we know that they accurately represent the original texts? Bart Ehrman, in The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, has observed a number of places in the Gospels where, for ideological reasons or by accident, it is likely that the process of transcription led to various changes between the original text and what we had in the 5th century, or today. Let's say that the original writings were accurate. Okay, but we do not have those writings on our possession. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:14, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
:Silence's version: "
As all historians and scientists must agree we must return to the facts and relics in existence today about a man called and known to be Jesus of Nazareth. The Romans speak of him in passing so he did in fact exist if we believe Roman history. Today we have a sample of his blood in the Sudarium found in the Cathedral of Oviedo, Spain. It is safely guarded and a treasure of Spain. Tests are being done on its DNA to see if this man was truly non human or a human with a different physical structure than the rest of the billions of humans out there. We know that turban was found untouched where this man was placed after he was taken down from the cross. We know too that the Roman soldiers that were responsible for making sure his body did not disappear were either incompentents, given sleeping gas, or were threatened or bought out not to tell what happened to the body. Now, everything that has come after has been a mere reconstruction of events which are needed by some men to try to explain sensations and thoughts which science has still not been able to explain thorough and convincingly. But lets be real here, what do we really know? We do not even know where he was buried if in fact he was dead and if in fact they placed his body in some tomb. All I have as a scientist to go on is his blood found in the Sudarium. If you read Asarim you will understand what I mean. I expect a reply from all you scholars out there trying to prove the existence of non existence of something without evidence. Forget works written 30 some years after the fact. That is worthless oral tradition. I need proof. Scientific proof. The only thing we really have is the Sudarium which supposedly covered this man's head and is full of his blood.
from Matthew
My translation has a note for he handed him over36, noting it can also be translated "delivered him up"
It was suggested there was no textual support for saying Jesus was handed over to the Roman "execution squad". Looking not only at the reality of politics of the day but also at the text, there is plenty of support for that claim - and it contines on & on in Matthew
Matthew & Mark make it very clear the Romans did the crucifying. Luke & John use more passive voice & non-referential pronouns. I think it likely when/if the crowd called for Barabbas, they were calling for the "son of the father" --but I do not think there was snowball's chance Pilate would free a any seditionist at all. -- JimWae 08:04, 2005 July 26 (UTC)
The recently added footnote is way too detailed - imagine how it would be if we added a paragraph on every scholar who has an opinion about Jesus. Shall we move this to the article about the quoted scholar? DJ Clayworth 19:05, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
To the person who put he footnote back - please read what I say and explain why you think I am wrong. A few points: 1) There is a lot to say about Jesus. We are barely skimming the surface. To have a whole paragraph from one scholar, not even a particularly major one, is unbalenced. 2) The view that Jesus was a Pharisee is a minority one. Given again the number of people with an interest in this subject, any view not subscribed to by at least a few hundred million people is probably better left until later in the article. I'm not saying it shouldn't go in the article, but the intro is reserved for the briefest overview. DJ Clayworth 22:10, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Rather, what "tells a great deal" about believers in a notion, is when they cast extreme accusations against conclusions, regardless of whether they are drawn for causes entirely separate from the charged fault. There are many reasons not to place Jesus among the Pharisee party, and it is quackery, conspiracy theory and sensationalism that would discount those reasons in favor of the theory that the real roots of the contrary opinion are in anti-semitism. Somebody is selling something. Mkmcconn (Talk) \
Please sign your notes in talk. Mkmcconn (Talk) 23:36, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
It is beyond thought that Jesus would be considered a Pharisee; the label is a slur to those who seek the Spirit. They were doctors of the law, but did not understand the law. I don't believe Christ ever referred to them in a kindly light.
T's point is that it does not belong in the lead and not that it does not belong. If you are committed to it, put it lower in the article. I agree with T. Storm Rider 23:49, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I think we're gaining consensus that This is a strong claim that requires a great deal of support, especially to suggest it is a major uncontested position except by antisemites.-- Tznkai 00:13, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
from http://www.duke.edu/religion/home/EP/sanders.html
"E.P. SANDERS (1990) received his Th.d. from Union Seminary (NY) 1966. In 1990, he was awarded a D. Litt. by the University of Oxford and D.Theol. by the University of Helsinki. He is a Fellow of the British Academy. The author, co-author or editor of thirteen books, as well as articles in encyclopedias and journals, he has received several awards and prizes, including the Grawemeyer Prize for the best book on religion published in the 1980s (Jesus and Judaism). His work has been translated into nine different languages. He came to Duke from Oxford, where he was from 1984-1990 the Dean Ireland's Professor of Exegesis and also fellow of the Queen's College."
from http://www.duke.edu/religion/home/EP/Intel%20autobiog%20rev.pdf
"To put the main arguments of the book briefly: Jesus was a prophet of the restoration of Israel, who began as a follower of an eschatological prophet (John the Baptist), and whose ministry resulted in an eschatological Jewish movement (early Christianity, especially as seen in Paul’s letters). He pointed to restoration in word and deed, proclaiming the kingdom as soon to arrive and indicating the restoration of Israel especially by calling the Twelve. He made dramatic symbolic gestures pointing to this hope. One of them, overthrowing tables in the temple court, led Caiaphas to the view that he might start a riot. The requirements of the Roman system resulted in his execution. His followers continued his movement, expecting him to return to re-establish Israel. This naturally led to their incorporation of the prophetic hope that in the last days the Gentiles would turn to worship the God of Israel."
E.P Sanders may be a brilliant and well-respected scholar; I don't dispute that. But in this field I can name a hundred people who are equally brilliant and well-respected. Should all of them have a paragraph in this article explaining their views? It would make the article unbalenced. As is said above, a point of view has to be exceptionally widely held to belong in the opening paragraph, and this doesn't make it. Absolutely no objection to it being mentioned later in the article. (But please don't bring the quote back. I copied it to E.P. Sanders page. DJ Clayworth 13:40, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
There certainly are other important critical Bible scholars, but I can't agree with DJ Clayworth's claim that there are a 100 just like him. He is among the five or six most frequently cited, well-respected historians of Jesus. As such his views should be prominent (but by no means exclusive!) in any article or section on "the historical Jesus." As long as we make the distinction between the historical Jesus and the Christian Jesus clear, Tznkai's comments are just irrelevant. Of course Catholics, Protestants, and other groups of Christians will have their own accounts of Jesus's life. And if a person spends most of his time discussing Jesus with people whose knowledge of Jesus is mediated through their relation, there is no reason to think s/he'd ever hear anything about Sanders (or Vermes, Fredriksen, Meier, Ehrman, maybe Crossan and a few other top-ranked criticle Bible scholars). That does not mean that Sanders is not important nor that his views are not widely shared. They are widely shared (or at least, some of his views are) by most critical Bible scholars. Discussion of their views should be in a section "the historical Jesus" and a detailed discussion of their views should be in a separate article. It would be ideal to have all points of view equally represented in this article, but we won't have the space for it. But we definitely have to acknowledge some of the major views of critical scholars. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps you need to check our NPOV policy. No one view should dominate. Look at it this way: only about a third of the world's population is Christian. That means that two-thirds of the world's population either believe Jesus never existed, or believe that he existed but was not a god. Now, of this 66% of the world's population, I can't say how many know of Sanders' works — I conceded that it is probably a small number. But whether they know his name or not they are more likely to share his views than those of Christians. I will further concede to you that Sanders (and Vermes and Fredriksen and Meier and others) views should not be presented as "mainstream opinion." But I would then have to insist that there is no "mainstram opinion" or whatever you believe is "mainstream opinion" should not be expressed in this article. There are simply different points of view — the scholarly (we'd have to add "critical" so as to distinguish them from Catholic or Protestant scholars who work within the framework of their theology) view, the Roman Catholic view, and so on. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Okay, Tznkai. I appreciate your clearing up your position which is not very distant from my own. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 21:09, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Because the article would get too long (technically, too long for many servers). Thus, the bulk of what you suggest should be in linked pages. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:39, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but whether highly notable or less notable, this article (the main one) at least has to mention it, if not provide a brief summary, and provide a link to the larger, dedicated article. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
--I'm pretty sure that's Lil Kim and NOT Walleij's Jesus.
I can't help feeling that the Walleij painting would be practically unknown (and in my opinion, deservedly unknown) if it weren't for Wikipedia displaying it on this page. Personally, I dislike it intensely; so, it may be that my personal taste is getting in the way of a sound opinion. If a non-traditional pictoral representation of Jesus is sought, Rembrandt van Rijn's "Head of Christ" is much more familiar. Am I alone in this? Mkmcconn (Talk) 19:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
You are not alone, but it is what it is; art. It is certainly not a common interpretation. The article includes several other pictures; but I am surprised not to see the crucified Christ and Christ risen. Storm Rider 19:43, 26 July 2005 (UTC)</nowiki>
The article, Georges Rouault, has an image that I would prefer over the Walleij. If there's no objection, I'm using that. If there is objection while the page is still protected, let me know and I'll revert it to bring the issue back under discussion. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 18:11, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Add Emmet Fox The Sermon on the Mount: The Key to Success in Life and the Lord's Prayer : An Interpretation
Add Swami Prabhavananda Sermon on the Mount According to Vedanta
Actually, Sermon on the Mount would cover them both plus provide more info.
Replace The Passion of the Christ with Dramatic portrayals of Jesus as it covers that movie and others
Add Raymond E. Brown 1928-1998 Union Theological Seminary Professor Emeritus, Does the New Testament call Jesus God?, Theological Studies #26, 1965, pp.545-573
Just a note: to link to a category, make sure you include a lead-in colon in thw link. Otherwise, the link doesn't work, and the page is included in the category. For example, [[:Category:Mythology]] results in a link to Category:Mythology, whereas [[Category:Mythology]] only includes the page in the category. -- Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 22:38, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Could someone please add [[Category:Mythology]] once this is unprotected, as this category is blatently missing. unsigned comment by user:FestivalOfSouls -- Jtkiefer T | @ | C ----- 21:23, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
You are pursuing a policy that can only be implemented by brute force. It invites edit wars, and proposes to solve the conflict it creates by encouraging all editors to adopt your POV. This is not neutrality. it is argumentation. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 20:53, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Reaaly quick folks, before I get into this ugly mess of POV accusations: This article is on Jesus, also called the Christ. It is not the christian view of Jesus. It is not the Muslim view of Jesus. The vast majority of historian's agree that a guy named Jesus ran around preaching. This is not myth anymore than the moonlanding is a myth. The fact that singificant portions of the population disagree does nto make it a myth. This is an article on a figure and his effects, in summary. The ressurection, the Bible, the religious views, the parables, the miracles. Those are all myth. They may also be true, but they are myth. Thats what I think anyway-- Tznkai 15:29, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
There is a major misunderstanding going on here. I recognize that popularly, most people use the word "myth" to mean "not real." But this is not how scholars use the word, as as an encyclopedia we should try to represent the scholarship on any given issue. What definies a myth is not whether it actually happened or not, but that people refer to it as a way of giving meaning to their lives, or explaining how they live their lives to themselves and others. Most beliefs N. Americans have about the "founding fathers" — including beliefs that are based on documented, historically acurate events, are "myths" in this sense. It also follows that "myth" refers to a stories about people and events, not to people and events themselves (e.g. Paul Bunyan and George Washington are not "myths," they are "objects of myth"). There is no doubt that at the very least many people treat the NT account of Jesus as a myth, and in so doing are not making claims one way or the other as to whether Jesus existed. They use the word "myth" to refer to an account, a narrative, a text. Stories about the US moonlanding of course are myths, not because they are historically innaccurate but because they play such an important role in how N. Americans understand themselves and their country. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:40, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
A few points. 1) Because an article contains some things about a subject doesn't mean it should be in the category for that subject. Otherwise the category for a city will end up including the article for everyone who visited that city. 2) We need to be able to distinguish between Christian stories that are accepted as true (by Christians) and those that are not. 3) While technically 'myth' does include true stories, that is not a widely held understanding and is likely to be confusing.
The best category for these articles that Festival is flagging is something like Christian Doctrine or Christian theology. That really tells us what we need to know. DJ Clayworth 17:27, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
The Gospels record that he was often at odds with Jewish authorities for opposing their religious establishment and for making frequent statements alluding to his deity; for these reasons, he was was crucified in Jerusalem during the rule of the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate
The intro now reads:
I like this, but the portion after the semicolon is also reported by the gospels (and I don't believe them — hence my concern). I'm not sure how to implement this, else I'd do it myself. -- goethean ॐ 17:23, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
How about this:
Jesus was either: 1) killed by the Jews, by "handing him over" to the Romans, because he claimed to be God, or 2) crucified by the Roman Pontius Pilate and his quisling Caiaphas for causing a disturbance, overturning tables, at Herod's Temple. Interpretation 1 was and still is popular, however it is the root of antisemitism. Instead, many modern Christians have embraced interpretation 2, which is more in accord with the history of 1st century Roman occupied Judea.
it's not (1) vs. (2), it's a combination. Jesus was causing some hysteria in town, the religious notables came clamoring he was a heretic, and the Romans just crucified him as a troublemaker without batting an eyelid. You didn't have to have messiah aspirations or special powers to be crucified in those days, I suppose a few important enemies and no important friends was enough to land you on the cross for pickpocketing. And frankly, regarding 'guilt', crucifying pickpockets I find morally much more questionable than crucifying shady characters that are suspected of revolutionary conspiracy, making oblique comments about their royalty when questioned, and whose minions go about cutting off occupation forces soldiers' ears. Jesus' crucifixion would have been such a non-event had he not risen, afterwards (and it is asking rather too much of religious and political authorities to have predicted that course of events).
dab
(ᛏ) 09:21, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I have no idea what it means to say that "the mainstream" view is that "the Jews" didn't like him. There were lots of Jews, many of whom probably didn't even know Jesus existed. What does it mean to say "the Jews?" "Jews" refers to some group of people. "The Jews" refers to all people classified as "Jews," right? What is the function of the definite article? In any event, "the mainstream view" is hard to pin down. I do think that we can strive to summarize the NT account as neutrally as possible. In other articles that focus specifically on Christian interpretations, it won't be too hard to find official or authorized accounts of how major Churches interpret the events leading to Jesus' execution. In another article, we provide an account of what different historians think (and none of the major historians I know of think that Jesus pissed off "the Jews"). Also, to say he wasn't well-liked is not at all reasonable. There is as much evidence that he was liked as that he wasn't well-liked. Moreover, the crux of the story, for both Christians and critical historians, is not that he was executed because he "wasn't well-liked," this is a meaningless statement. The question is, why exactly did the Jewish authorities turn him over to Pilate, and why did Pilate order his execution? "Not well liked" is no explanation at all. Lots of people are not well-liked, but they don't get crucified for it! Slrubenstein | Talk 15:50, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay, in this case, then, it is simply an error to use the phrase "the Jews" and I ask you, with respect, not to use it this way again. Nevertheless, the fact remains that the NT account can be interpreted different ways, and that most critical historians I know of disagree with your view. Based on my reading of both the NT and historians, I definitely do not believe that he was killed because "he was very much disliked," at least if we are using the words "dislike" and "like" they way they are usually used in English. What is your source? Slrubenstein | Talk 16:27, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Goethean, you are quite right about that sentence in particular. But as I am sure you are aware of (and certainly various Christian denominations are aware of this) such passages have been sore points for Jews. In any event, my point in this talk section was not about the "according to john" claim, which is specific and appropriately phrased to comply with NPOV; it concerned more general factual claims being made by another editor. As for Tsnkai, I am sorry you are ill. However, if you think I am playing a semantic game, you entirely misunderstand my point, which has to do with accuracy as well as complying with our NPOV and NOR policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:34, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Frankly, I am not offended -- I simply (1) asked what you meant by "the jews" and (2) observed (accurately) that many Jews have found those passages from John to be offensive. As to your point, Tznkai, I have to admit — and I am not saying this because I am angry or offended or disrespectful — I do not understand what you are getting at. You are right that the policies I invoked do not apply to talk pages. But talk pages are for discussing ways to improve the article. I still do not understand how the claim "the Jews did not like Jesus" can add anything to the article. So I am just being honest: I do not get your point. Can you explain it to me? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:56, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I still think that since talk pages are meant to contribute to the article, it is simply pointless for us to try to figure out what most people would agree too, as that is original research and prohibited. As far as what would be a factually accurate, NPOV statement, all I can suggest is this "Among those people who believe that Jesus existed, all agree that he was crucified by the Roman authorities." Anything beyond that has to be in the plural ("there are various explanations as to why he was executed. According to the Catholic Church ... According to historians A and B ... According to historians X and Y ..." etc.) Slrubenstein | Talk 18:20, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I'd like to accommodate you, but I am not sure what you mean by ":'s" Slrubenstein | Talk 12:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Jesus was either: 1) killed by the Jews, by "handing him over" to the Romans, because he claimed to be God, or 2) crucified by the Roman Pontius Pilate and his quisling Caiaphas for causing a disturbance, overturning tables, at Herod's Temple, or 3) a combination of the above. Interpretation 1 was and still is popular, however it is the root of antisemitism. Instead, many modern Christians have embraced interpretation 2, which is more in accord with the historical context of 1st century Roman occupied Judea.
Jesus was either: 1) killed by the Jews, by "handing him over" to the Romans, because he claimed to be God, or 2) crucified by the Roman Pontius Pilate and his quisling Caiaphas for overturning tables at Herod's Temple, or 3) a combination of the above. Interpretation 1 was and still is popular, although it is widely viewed as antisemitic. Interpretation 2 is more in accord with the historical context of 1st century Roman occupied Judea.
I guess my problem is the term "Anti-Semitic". Yes, the fact that Jesus was turned over by the Sanhedrin to Pilate has been used by anti-Semites, but the mere fact is that is what happened. It may be politically incorrect to talk about, but it is hardly anti-Semitic. It is a fact. Granted, was have had some reconstructionist historians who have attempted to cast Pilate as someone who would have sought Jesus out had he the opportunity, but scripture is clear. The Sanhedrin arrested Jesus, tried him, and found him guilty. The Sanhedrin turned Jesus over to Pilate because they themselves were not able to put Jesus to death. I see no problem with stating it the way it is recorded in the bible. I also see no problem with adding the thoughts of others as to why the Sanhedrin felt it necessary or why Pilate and the Romans implemented it. Just stay with the facts as we know them and forget about being polically incorrect. Also, do not say the Jews did it, as a people they did not; the Sanhedrin turned Jesus over, not the Jews. Storm Rider 19:29, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
spelling error: seperate (should be spelled: separate) CapeCodEph 00:41, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I am reverting back to my native colors of blue to get a little attention to my points above, which —oddly enough —seem to be ignored. Thank you for the heads up on the spelling of separate, which I often misspell, but in this case, there were no misspelling of this word on this page ...wait! I see in the main article a misspelling- thx 4 the heads up, Cape Cod. Another Biology and Chem. double major, eh? You're smart! THANK YOU for pointing out this spelling error -but, oops! I see the page's locked. Oh that bad luck. When I team up w/ spell check I'm smart too, but I'd better stick to my genetics, biology, chemistry, and politics/religion stuff -that spelling stuff's best left to computers.-- GordonWattsDotCom 20:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm confused. Who are "the Jews"? Isn't that construction just inherently a) anti-Semitic and b) meaningless?
We could just put "Jesus was killed by Jesus-killers". ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 16:05, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Jesus was either: #1) killed by the Jews, by "handing him over" to the Romans, because he claimed to be God; or #2) crucified by the Roman Pontius Pilate and his quisling Caiaphas for overturning tables at Herod's Temple; or #3) a combination of the above. #1 has always been popular but is widely viewed as antisemitic, whereas #2 is derived from the historical context of 1st century Roman occupied Judea.
You should read this book: Crossan, John Dominic. Who Killed Jesus?: Exposing the Roots of Anti-Semitism in the Gospel Story of the Death of Jesus
Crossan's book is here:
From Publishers Weekly In a book sure to generate both conversation and controversy, John Dominic Crossan, author of two well-regarded books on the historical Jesus, names the New Testament Gospels' insistence on Jewish responsibility for Jesus' death as Christianity's "longest lie." Crossan argues particularly against many of the theories posed in Raymond Brown's The Death of the Messiah. While Brown finds that many of the events in the stories of Jesus' last days are plausible historically, Crossan claims that almost none of the events are historical. According to Crossan, they are "prophesy historicized," accounts written by looking back at the Old Testament and other early materials and then projecting those prophecies on whatever historical events occurred. Because many of those early writers were persecuted by the Jewish authorities, they threw in a heavy dose of propaganda against the Jews. As Crossan aptly states, these gospels were relatively harmless when Christians were a small sect. When, however, Rome became Christian, those anti-Semitic narratives became, and continue to be, lethal. Well argued and highly readable, Who Killed Jesus? also includes an important epilogue stating Crossan's own faith perspectives on the divinity and resurrection of Christ. Scholars rarely go this far, yet such a confession provides another valuable entry into this fascinating material. Copyright 1995 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
From Library Journal The two main theses of this extraordinary book are that the roots of anti-Semitism spring from gospel narratives of the death of Jesus and that the Romans, not the Jews, killed Jesus as a revolutionary agitator inimical to their continued governance of Judea. Crossan, a former Roman Catholic priest and now a noted expert on the life of Jesus, fascinatingly describes here two types of historical writing: 1) history remembered?history written as it actually happened?and 2) prophecy historicized, a tendentious interpretation of what really happened made to conform to or "fulfill" ancient prophecies?in this case, supposed prophecies about the life of Jesus uttered by Hebrew prophets. According to Crossan, the passion accounts blaming the Jews for Jesus' arrest and crucifixion are based on this second type of writing and are thus myths if not downright lies. He pleads for a reevaluation of the passion stories, which have caused such animus toward Jews for the past 2000 years. An excellent study for lay readers and specialists; recommended for larger religion collections.?Robert A. Silver, formerly with Shaker Heights P.L., Ohio Copyright 1995 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
From Booklist Given the conjunction of concern with Jesus and public discourse in the ascendancy of the "Christian coalition" in our own historical moment, Crossan's decision to make this argument available to a popular audience is a timely one. Briefly, Crossan contends that the understanding of the passion narratives in the canonical Gospels as historical "fact" is not only wrong, but also dangerous. It is dangerous because of the particular way in which the confusion of "interpretation" and "fact" came in this case to be backed by power. Crossan notes that, for Christians, the Gospel accounts are divinely inspired, but that inspiration comes through human beings in human communities and can come as inspired propaganda. When Christianity was a relatively powerless sect within Judaism struggling like other sects for the hearts and minds of the Jewish community, its propaganda about "Jewish responsibility and Roman innocence" was relatively harmless. But as Christianity and the Roman Empire became inextricably linked, that propaganda became the lethal basis for transition from a theological controversy within a religious community to propaganda directed by one religious community against another to genocidal anti-Semitism. What may have been relatively harmless propaganda at its origins has become, Crossan argues, "the longest lie." The scholarly debate behind this discussion asks whether the passion narrative is derived from "history remembered" or from "prophecy historicized." Crossan has argued consistently for the second option, and he wrote this book largely in response to Raymond Brown's influential Death of the Messiah, which defends the first. The book is a lucid, accessible guide to the controversy, but, more important, it is one of the best accounts of how prejudice is transformed into racism in the conjunction of mythological and political power. Steve Schroeder--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
Booklist "Given the conjunction of concern with Jesus and public discourse in the ascendancy of the 'Christian coalition' in our own historical moment, Crossan's decision to make this argument available to a popular audience is a timely one. Briefly, Crossan contends that the understanding of the passion narratives in the canonical Gospels as historical 'fact' is not only wrong, but also dangerous. It is dangerous because of the particular way in which the confusion of 'interpretation' and 'fact' came in this case to be backed by power. Crossan notes that, for Christians, the Gospel accounts are divinely inspired, but that inspiration comes through human beings in human communities and can come as inspired propaganda. When Christianity was a relatively powerless sect within Judaism, struggling like other sects for the hearts and minds of the Jewish community, its propaganda about 'Jewish responsibility' and 'Roman innocence' was relatively harmless. But as Christianity and the Roman Empire became inextricably linked, that propaganda became the lethal basis for transition from a theological controversy within a religious community to propaganda directed by one religious community against another to genocidal anti-Semitism. What may have been relatively harmless propaganda at its origins has become, Crossan argues, 'the longest lie.' The scholarly debate behind this discussion asks whether the passion narrative is derived from 'history remembered' or from 'prophecy historicized.' Crossan has argued consistently for the second option, and he wrote this book largely in response to Raymond Brown's influential Death of the Messiah, which defends the first. The book is a lucid, accessible guide to the controversy, but, more important, it is one of the best accounts of how prejudice is transformed into racism in the conjunction of mythological and political power."
Book Description The death of Jesus is one of the most hotly debated questions in Christianity today. In his massive and highly publicized The Death of the Messiah, Raymond Brown -- while clearly rejecting anti-Semitism -- never questions the essential historicity of the passion stories. Yet it is these stories, in which the Jews decide Jesus' execution, that have fueled centuries of Christian anti-Semitism. Now, in his most controversial book, John Dominic Crossan shows that this traditional understanding of the Gospels as historical fact is not only wrong but dangerous. Drawing on the best of biblical, anthropological, sociological and historical research, he demonstrates definitively that it was the Roman government that tried and executed Jesus as a social agitator. Crossan also candidly addresses such key theological questions as "Did Jesus die for our sins?" and "Is our faith in vain if there was no bodily resurrection?" Ultimately, however, Crossan's radical reexamination shows that the belief that the Jews killed Jesus is an early Christian myth (directed against rival Jewish groups) that must be eradicated from authentic Christian faith.
With all due respect to everyone I do not see the point of continuing this thread.
Really, I am not blowing my own horn here, but do we really need to say anything more than this? Slrubenstein | Talk 03:13, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure that it's appropriate to add a fourth Eastern Orthodox icon, especially under the "Other Perspectives" subsection. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 16:07, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
In 1998, the Jesus Seminar published The Acts of Jesus: The Search for the Authentic Deeds of Jesus ( ISBN 0060629789). [6] In summary: Jesus was born in Nazareth during the reign of Herod the Great, his mother was Mary and he had a human father who was probably not Joseph. He was baptized by John the Baptist who was later beheaded by Herod Antipas. He was an "itinerant sage who shared meals with social outcasts" and "practiced healing without the use of ancient medicine or magic, relieving afflictions we now consider psychosomatic" though some claimed he did this in the name of Beelzebul. He proclaimed the coming of "God's imperial rule". He was arrested in Jerusalem and crucified by the Romans as a "public nuisance", specifically for overturning tables at Herod's Temple, not for claiming to be the Son of God, during the period of Pontius Pilate and Caiaphas. Belief in the resurrection is based on the visionary experiences of Paul, Peter, and Mary.
To whom it may concern,
Recently
Phatcat68 added this article to the 'Diety' category, then
Mkmcconn reverted the article back out of this category. While I agree with Mkmcconn's revert, still I think that the question of whether or not Jesus was a diety bears some comment here.
Within traditional Christian theology, apparently whether or not Jesus was truly a diety would remain as what I would call, 'in the mystery department'. By this I mean that unfortunately, traditional Christian theology is self contradictory on this subject, and therefore the question of this subject, when pressing hard enough, will generally result in an answer that runs something like, "Don't you know, this is one of the Christian 'mysteries'", essentially meaning, "please don't ask me any more questions about this, because I really haven't a clue."
Unfortunately this would appear to be an easy theological 'stock' answer given to any points of contradiction within traditional Christian theology. As the answer to this question will forever remain amongst the traditional Christian 'mysteries', I agree with this revert. I agree that it is not fair to assert that the the most common answer to this question from the majority of traditonal Christians would be any kind of clear 'yes'. Instead it would more likely be, "Well, he's God's Son, but he's also God made flesh, but he's part of the Trinity which means that he's different from God, but the three are really all the same, uh.... gee, ya got me....". Thank God for Wiki. Questions and comments like this that are now freely posted on this page would have probably gotten us all turned into heretical shis-kabob delights about 400 years ago!
I recognize that the fact that the G of T is believed by many Biblical scholars to predate the canonical Gospels may be somewhat disconscerting to some. I say this because in some ways this implies that some earlier suppositions that some may have based years of their dilligent studies upon, may need to be slightly revised. Still, obviously these types of unsubstantiated edits regarding the G of T will remain as being considered POV and will be reverted, unless the editor might be able to substantiate any further such edits with documentation here on this discussion page.
I apologize for my insistence here, but I believe that there is a great wealth of information and understanding that can be gained via the study of the G of T, and that by trying to be open minded enough to consider the possibility that Christianity as it was essentially fossilized by Constantine in the early 4th century, only slightly de-fossilized by the reformation in the 16th century, and only slightly more de-fossilized beginning with Vatican II as convened by Pope John XXIII, may not be entirely complete, and that we may still have many things that we can learn fresh. Thanks for putting up with this rant.
Sincerely,
- Scott P. 16:59, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
In this context, "account" means "narrative". Does this help you? — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 22:08, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the category "Murdered activist", which was added by an anon IP a minute ago, because I feel that the category does not apply in this case and is POV-ing the article. If you disagree, let me know! Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 19:32, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
"although he is also reported in the New Testament to have heard Jesus ask why he was persecuting him on the road to Damascus and to have had scales on his eyes which fell off when he met the person he was foretold to meet". This is placed in the opening paragraphs, but it seems slightly OTT for the article on Jesus to be placed there. And what is the point--is it inserted to lead the reader to a conclusion, or is it irrelevant? I suggest moving the facts contained to another section of the article or another article altogether (one on Paul?). -- Peter Kirby 00:13, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe in the principle of total evidence. Paul did not reportedly only see Jesus in a vision but he also reportedly heard Jesus and was told to meet a man and which point the scales fell off of his eyes.
Someone removed this sentence:
At the other end of the spectrum are historians which have been very favorable to the Christian claim of the resurrection and did not believe the Christ myth was plausible - scholars such as Thomas Arnold [7], A. N. Sherwin-White [8] [9], and Michael Grant. [10] [11] [12]
Why is someone like Doherty who denies the existence of Jesus mentioned which is a extremely minority position but opinions/arguments by noted Professors/historians opinions deleted. I strongly object to its removal.
ken 00:37, 11 August 2005 (UTC)kdbuffalo
I made the sentence more concise.
It now reads:
At the other end of the spectrum are historians which have been very favorable to the Christian claims regarding Jesus such as the resurrection. Historians which were favorable to a historical resurrection of Jesus include: Thomas Arnold [13], A. N. Sherwin-White [14] [15], and Michael Grant. [16] [17] [18]
I also restored the mithraism footnote so readers can see where it is located in relation to the claim made in the body of the text.
ken 00:49, 11 August 2005 (UTC)kdbuffalo
I just deleted:
which comes from an unknown and as far as I can tell uncredible author. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:05, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
"They resented Roman occupation, but in Jesus' time were relatively apolitical."
This statement is patently false and an attempt to force a POV onto an historical epoc. For starters, it's contradicted by the later statement:
"Many Jews hoped that the Romans would be replaced by a Jewish king (or Messiah) of the line of King David — in their view the last legitimate Jewish regime."
That is not an expression of "apolitical". Obviously, to rephrase this statement, many Jews hoped that the Romans would be replaced by the Kingdom of God which meant restoration of the Davidic Kingdom. THIS IS VERY POLITICAL!
Secondly, the statement that the Judeans of Iudaea Province were apolitical is equivalent to claiming the French under German occupation were apolitical or that the Kurds under American occupation are relatively apolitical.
Huh? During the time in question these words were in flux, but Judean had come to refer to a geopolitical entity, and Jew to the people inhabiting it and other places. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:02, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous user, please give me your sources. Mine are Shaye JD Cohen, the preeminent historian of the period in Jewish history, and EP Sanders, one of the preeminent historians studying early Christian history. On what do you base your claims about first century Judea? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:02, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
An example of translation error:
But wait! Galileans aren't Jews? Galileans are Jews but not Judeans. Jesus walked in Galilee because he feared the Judeans! More like this:
And who are the "Jews" in Judea? They are Judeans, of course. See how much easier things are when you translate correctly? In Latin:
SUMMARY: IUDAEI=Judeans, not Jews
The situation is identical in Greek, it's just harder to write in Greek, maybe someone else would like to do that.
This is sophistry, not scholarship. Saducees, Pharisees, and Essenes were all Jews. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Better info on Idumeans: Antipater the Idumaean
"For there are three philosophical sects among the Jews. The followers of the first of which are the Pharisees; of the second, the Sadducees; and the third sect, which pretends to a severer discipline, are called Essenes." Josephus The Jewish War 8:2. Three, not four, and the word used is best translated as "schools."
"Now when that feast, which was observed after seven weeks, and which the Jews called Pentecost, (i. e. the 50th day,) was at hand, its name being taken from the number of the days [after the passover], the people got together, but not on account of the accustomed Divine worship, but of the indignation they had ['at the present state of affairs']. Wherefore an immense multitude ran together, out of Galilee, and Idumea, and Jericho, and Perea, that was beyond Jordan; but the people that naturally belonged to Judea itself were above the rest, both in number, and in the alacrity of the men." This is from The Jewish War 3:1. Obviously Josephus is including Galileans as Jews. The reason that there were more Judeans present was because Jerusalem is in Judea. But Jews from outside of Judea did go up to Jerusalem for Shavuot. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:22, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
What is my point? Well, Anonymous user (it would really help if you registered and signed in), another anonbymous user wrote "2nd Temple Jews = Judeans, as distinct from all Jews throughout history," although as you point out this is a false equation. I agree that at certain times in history Judean is more precise than Jew. Now, let's go back to what that other anonymous user wrote, "Most Judeans wanted an end to Roman occupation," and I am still waiting for a source for this claim. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:45, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Note it says "many of the wise men were deceived". Josephus says "the Jews" thought the oracle (Torah has become oracle, a concept familiar to Greco-Romans) meant a Jew would rise to rule the earth, i.e. the Messianic King, however, says Josephus, this was foolishness, as the oracle actually predicted that Vespasian would be appointed Roman Emperor on Jewish soil and that Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed. After the Roman-Jewish Wars, Judaism and the turncoat Josephus were apolitical, and for that reason alone they survived, but not before. Judaism before the wars was politically charged.
Write for the reader. Jayjg (talk) 19:47, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Write for the reader by following our NPOV and NOR policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:07, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm
CHAPTER 1.
HOW CYRENIUS WAS SENT BY CAESAR TO MAKE A TAXATION OF SYRIA AND JUDEA; AND HOW COPONIUS WAS SENT TO BE PROCURATOR OF JUDEA; CONCERNING JUDAS OF GALILEE AND CONCERNING THE SECTS THAT WERE AMONG THE JEWS.
"1. ...Moreover, Cyrenius came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance, and to dispose of Archelaus's money; but the Jews, although at the beginning they took the report of a taxation heinously, yet did they leave off any further opposition to it, by the persuasion of Joazar, who was the son of Beethus, and high priest; so they, being over-pesuaded by Joazar's words, gave an account of their estates, without any dispute about it. Yet was there one Judas, a Gaulonite, (1) of a city whose name was Gamala, who, taking with him Sadduc, (2) a Pharisee, became zealous to draw them to a revolt, who both said that this taxation was no better than an introduction to slavery, and exhorted the nation to assert their liberty; as if they could procure them happiness and security for what they possessed, and an assured enjoyment of a still greater good, which was that of the honor and glory they would thereby acquire for magnanimity. They also said that God would not otherwise be assisting to them, than upon their joining with one another in such councils as might be successful, and for their own advantage; and this especially, if they would set about great exploits, and not grow weary in executing the same; so men received what they said with pleasure, and this bold attempt proceeded to a great height. All sorts of misfortunes also sprang from these men, and the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree; one violent war came upon us after another, and we lost our friends which used to alleviate our pains; there were also very great robberies and murder of our principal men. This was done in pretense indeed for the public welfare, but in reality for the hopes of gain to themselves; whence arose seditions, and from them murders of men, which sometimes fell on those of their own people, (by the madness of these men towards one another, while their desire was that none of the adverse party might be left,) and sometimes on their enemies; a famine also coming upon us, reduced us to the last degree of despair, as did also the taking and demolishing of cities; nay, the sedition at last increased so high, that the very temple of God was burnt down by their enemies' fire. Such were the consequences of this, that the customs of our fathers were altered, and such a change was made, as added a mighty weight toward bringing all to destruction, which these men occasioned by their thus conspiring together; for Judas and Sadduc, who excited a fourth philosophic sect among us, and had a great many followers therein, filled our civil government with tumults at present, and laid the foundations of our future miseries, by this system of philosophy, which we were before unacquainted withal, concerning which I will discourse a little, and this the rather because the infection which spread thence among the younger sort, who were zealous for it, brought the public to destruction.
2. The Jews had for a great while had three sects of philosophy peculiar to themselves; the sect of the Essens, and the sect of the Sadducees, and the third sort of opinions was that of those called Pharisees; of which sects, although I have already spoken in the second book of the Jewish War, yet will I a little touch upon them now."
In conclusion, Josephus says there are three sects, Essenes, Sadducees, and Pharisees, plus a fourth sect, founded by Judas of Gamala (in Galilee) and Sadduc the Pharisee in 6ce, later called Zealots.
Thus the claim that the 2nd Temple Pharisees were relatively apolitical is very misleading. No doubt Hillel was relatively apolitical, but Shammai? Obviously Sadduc the Pharisee was relatively political.
"6. But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man lord. And since this immovable resolution of theirs is well known to a great many, I shall speak no further about that matter; nor am I afraid that any thing I have said of them should be disbelieved, but rather fear, that what I have said is beneath the resolution they show when they undergo pain. And it was in Gessius Florus's time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=49&letter=Z&search=zealots
"As stated by Josephus ("B. J." iv. 3, § 9), they boastfully called themselves by the name of "Ḳanna'im" (Zealots) on account of their religious zeal. The right of the Ḳanna'im to assassinate any non-Jew who dared to enter the consecrated parts of the Temple was officially recognized in a statute inscribed upon the Temple wall and discovered by Clermont-Ganneau in 1871 (see Schürer, "Gesch." 1st ed., ii. 3, 274; comp. Josephus, "B. J." vi. 2, § 4; both Derenbourg and Grätz ["Gesch." iii. 4, 225] misunderstood the passage). "Ḳanna'im" was the name for those zealous for the honor and sanctity of the Law as well as of the sanctuary, and for this reason they at first met with the support and encouragement of the people and of the Pharisaic leaders, particularly those of the rigid school of Shammai. It was only after they had been so carried away by their fanatic zeal as to become wanton destroyers of life and property throughout the land that they were denounced as heretic Galileans (Yad. iv. 8) and "murderers" (; Soṭah ix. 9) and that their principles were repudiated by the peace-loving Pharisees."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=956&letter=B&search=shammai
"The Shammaites, on the contrary, were intensely patriotic, and would not bow to foreign rule. They advocated the interdiction of any and all intercourse with those who either were Romans or in any way contributed toward the furtherance of Roman power or influences. Dispositions so heterogeneous and antagonistic can not usually endure side by side without provoking serious misunderstandings and feuds; and it was owing solely to the Hillelites' forbearance that the parties did not come to blows, and that even friendly relations continued between them (Tosef., Yeb. i. 10; Yeb. 14b; Yer. Yeb. i. 3b), for a time at least. But the vicissitudes of the period exerted a baneful influence also in that direction. When, after the banishment of Archelaus (6 C.E.), the Roman procurator Coponius attempted to tax the Jews, and ordered a strict census to be taken for that purpose, both schools protested, and the new measure was stigmatized as so outrageous as to justify all schemes by which it might be evaded. The general abhorrence for the system of Roman taxation manifested itself in looking with distrust upon every Jew who was officially concerned in carrying it out, whether as tax-collector ("gabbai") or as customs-collector ("mokes"); these were shunned by the higher ranks of the community, and their testimony before Jewish courts had no weight (B. Ḳ. x. 1; ib. 113a; Sanh. iii. 3; ib. 25b). About this time the malcontents held the ascendency. Under the guidance of Judas the Gaulonite (or Galilean) and of Zadok, a Shammaite (Tosef., 'Eduy. ii. 2; Yeb. 15b), a political league was called into existence, whose object was to oppose by all means the practise of the Roman laws. Adopting as their organic principle the exhortation of the father of the Maccabees (I Macc. ii. 50), "Be ye zealous for the law, and give your lives for the covenant of your fathers," these patriots called themselves "Ḳanna'im," Zealots (Josephus, "B. J." iv. 3, § 9, and vii. 8, § 1; Raphall, "Post-Biblical History," ii. 364); and the Shammaites, whose principles were akin to those of the Zealots, found support among them. Their religious austerity, combined with their hatred of the heathen Romans, naturally aroused the sympathies of the fanatic league, and as the Hillelites became powerless to stem the public indignation, the Shammaites gained the upper hand in all disputes affecting their country's oppressors. Bitter feelings were consequently engendered between the schools; and it appears that even in public worship they would no longer unite under one roof (Jost, "Gesch. des Judenthums und Seiner Sekten," i. 261; Tosef., R. H., end). These feelings grew apace, until toward the last days of Jerusalem's struggle they broke out with great fury."
Aug 23, 10:22PM CST This is the page text I am getting for this article:
removed disgusting filthy paragraph RossNixon 10:12, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
but when I go to the edit view it shows the source for the normal article. How is this happening?
Sam Walker -- 65.126.161.49 03:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Seems that it is alright now, but I am still curious as to how the edit view showed the normal source. Did I really click edit right after it was reverted? Explain this:
I loaded the page, saw the vandalised text, and went to the history to revert it Comparing the two most recent edits listed in the history, they both had un-vandalised text. Assuming it had been reverted, I returned to the main page, and saw the vandalised text still there Went to talk page and added the above question Returned to main page to see normal article back
Put this way it is not clear if this is a simple or a compound article of faith
or if the existence of the Triumvirate is not disputed, and the article of faith is Peter's membership-- JimWae 19:51, 2005 August 31 (UTC)
The skeptics are raising complaints about the resurrection without allowing adequate counter info. The section is not POV.
suggestion for resolution:
I admit some fault in raising the RFC too soon. I will remove it. With that being said, here is my solution. I suggest if a paucity of info is given for "resurrection section" in the "Jesus section" then the skeptic/christian side is likely to try to give just a little more info than the other side. My suggestion is the following. Keep the "Resurrection of Jesus" main section that is solely devoted to that topic. However, make a copy of that section and place it in the Jesus section as well. Otherwise I believe the tit for tat battles will be far more likely to continue.
Signed, the gentleman who responded to the skeptical objections to the resurrection but was subsequently deleted.
to: Mark
I have looked at your userpage. If memory serves, it has a gentleman who says he userpage was vandalized. I know you want me to not be anonymous. But I have told you I wish to remain anonymous and I gave my reason. I told you I had a few "internet wikipedia stalkers". Please respect this and do not continue to ask me to be anonymous.
Signed, the gentleman who strenuously and ravenously wishes to remain largely anonymous and politely asks you to respect that. LOL
further rationale for duplicating the "resurrection of jesus" in the Jesus article.
The resurrection is the central controversy surrounding Jesus. I think it should be front and center in the Jesus article. Having the section not also incorporated in the article is counter productive. And as I said before there are no current spats in the resurrection of Jesus section because each side feels it views are being aired.
Signed, the gentleman who responded to the skeptical objections to the resurrection but was subsequently deleted and then raised the POV dispute.
Great solution?
I think I thought of a solution. Why not say something like this:
Christians see the issue the resurrection of Jesus as a very central tenet of the Christian faith. There has been much written on this matter both affirming and denying the resurrection of Christ (see the large Wikipedia article written on this subject: resurrection of Jesus).
signed the anonymous wikipedian
Keep it disputed
I almost think that the best course of action would be to keep the article as it is, with the complaint of neutrality present. There is going to be endless debate for or against anyway, and the article does deal more with the Christian vision of Christ than any other. As with any religion, nearly any aspect of it can be countered by non-believers with the notiont that it "simply did not happen." We can clutter up the articles with numerous arguments and counterarguments if we want. But if we simply keep it as-is, with a very visible warning that the article may not be agreed with by all, then most anyone can figure out that it's not hard fact. If they seek further info, then they can use the link suggested above. Because frankly, you cannot have an article about religion be completely neutral as long as humans are writing it, whether they are biased for or against. I know it goes against official Wikipedia policy, but religion is a tricky matter. Just my opinion.
to: the person who made the changes, kudos
I like the way it reads now. I think it was an equitable solution.
signed, the anonymous wikipedian
The introduction claims the gospels present Jesus as a Torah-observant Jew, but I think this is potentially misleading because he seems to be Torah observant by the Gospels' own definition, not that of Judaism. Whilst Judaism doesn't "own" the term, I think the phrase should be rephrased as it implies that it portrays him as in harmony with Torah Judaism. Any suggestions? Frikle 00:12, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
From the Sermon on the Mount:
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=254&letter=J&search=Jesus#1000
Attitude Toward the Law.
Yet in several particulars Jesus declined to follow the directions of the Law, at least as it was interpreted by the Rabbis. Where John's followers fasted, he refused to do so (ii. 18). He permitted his followers to gather corn on the Sabbath (ii. 23-28), and himself healed on that day (iii. 1-6), though the stricter rabbis allowed only the saving of life to excuse the slightest curtailment of the Sabbath rest (Shab. xxii. 6). In minor points, such as the ablution after meals (vii. 2), he showed a freedom from traditional custom which implied a break with the stricter rule of the more rigorous adherents of the Law at that time. His attitude toward the Law is perhaps best expressed in an incident which, though recorded in only one manuscript of the Gospel of Luke (vi. 4, in the Codex Bezæ), bears internal signs of genuineness. He is there reported to have met a man laboring on the Sabbath-day—--a sin deserving of death by stoning, according to the Mosaic law. Jesus said to the man: "Man, if thou knowest what thou doest, blessed art thou; but if thou knowest not, accursed art thou, and a transgressor of the Law." According to this, the Law should be obeyed unless a higher principle intervenes. While claiming not to infringe or curtail the Law, Jesus directed his followers to pay more attention to the intention and motive with which any act was done than to the deed itself. This was by no means a novelty in Jewish religious development: the Prophets and Rabbis had continuously and consistently insisted upon the inner motive with which pious deeds should be performed, as the well-known passages in Isa. i. and Micah vi. sufficiently indicate. Jesus contended that the application of this principle was practically equivalent to a revolution in spiritual life; and he laid stress upon the contrast between the old Law and the new one, especially in his Sermon on the Mount. In making these pretensions he was following a tendency which at the period of his career was especially marked in the Hasidæans and Essenes, though they associated it with views as to external purity and seclusion from the world, which differentiated them from Jesus. He does not appear, however, to have contended that the new spirit would involve any particular change in the application of the Law. He appears to have suggested that marriages should be made permanent, and that divorce should not be allowed (x. 2-12). In the Talmud it is even asserted that he threatened to change the old law of primogeniture into one by which sons and daughters should inherit alike (Shab. 116a); but there is no evidence for this utterance in Christian sources. Apart from these points, no change in the Law was indicated by Jesus; indeed, he insisted that the Jewish multitude whom he addressed should do what the Scribes and Pharisees commanded, even though they should not act as the Scribes acted (Matt. xxiii. 3). Jesus, however, does not appear to have taken into account the fact that the Halakah was at this period just becoming crystallized, and that much variation existed as to its definite form; the disputes of the Bet Hillel and Bet Shammai were occurring about the time of his maturity. It is, however, exaggerated to regard these variations from current practises as exceptionally abnormal at the beginning of the first century. The existence of a whole class of 'Am ha-Areẓ, whom Jesus may be taken to represent, shows that the rigor of the Law had not yet spread throughout the people. It is stated (iii. 7) that, owing to the opposition aroused by his action on the Sabbath, Jesus was obliged to flee into heathen parts with some of his followers, including two or three women who had attached themselves to his circle. This does not seem at all probable, and is indeed contradicted by the Gospel accounts, which describe him, even after his seeming break with the rigid requirements of the traditional law, as lodging and feasting with the Pharisees (Luke xiv.), the very class that would have objected to his behavior.
Read the Jewish Encyclopedia article: "His choice of twelve apostles had distinct reference to the tribes of Israel (iii. 13-16). He regarded dogs and swine as unholy (Matt. vii. 6). His special prayer is merely a shortened form of the third, fifth, sixth, ninth, and fifteenth of the Eighteen Benedictions (see Lord's Prayer). Jesus wore the Ẓiẓit (Matt. ix. 20); he went out of his way to pay the Temple tax of two drachmas (ib. xvii. 24-27); and his disciples offered sacrifice (ib. v. 23-24). In the Sermon on the Mount he expressly declared that he had come not to destroy the Law, but to fulfil it (ib. v. 17, quoted in Shab. 116b), and that not a jot or tittle of the Law should ever pass away (ib. v. 18; comp. Luke xvi. 17). It would even appear that later tradition regarded him as scrupulous in keeping the whole Law (comp. John viii. 46)."
Also, the JE article is also being anachronistic. It is not at all clear that the "laws" Jesus is accused of having broken were universally considered to be laws by Jews in the early 1st century CE. SR
Please sign your messagtes, anon. user, so we can keep trtack of the discussion. The phrase "Torah observant" is itself an anachronism. SR
In case anyone cares, Josiah probably either invented or rediscovered the concept of Torah-observance.
Also, Torah-observance is certainly as old (at least) as the synagogue.
Deuteronomy 6:1-2 (NRSV): "Now this is the COMMANDMENT TORAH -- the statutes and the ordinances--that the LORD YHWH your God charged me to teach you to OBSERVE in the land that you are about to cross into and occupy, so that you and your children and your children's children, may fear the LORD your God all the days of your life, and keep all his decrees and his commandments that I am commanding you, so that your days may be long."
Nehemiah 10:28-29 (NRSV): "The rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the gatekeepers, the singers, the temple servants, and all who have separated themselves from the peoples of the lands to adhere to the law of God, their wives, their sons, their daughters, all who have knowledge and understanding, join with their kin, their nobles, and enter into a curse and an oath to walk in God’s law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to OBSERVE and do all the commandments TORAH of the LORD our Lord and his ordinances and his statutes."
From Antinomianism#Antinomianism_in_the_New_Testament: Paul of Tarsus, in his Letters, mentions several times that we are saved by the unearned grace of God, not by our own good works, "lest anyone should boast." He used the term freedom in Christ, for example Galatians 2:4, and it is clear that some understood this to mean lawlessness, for example Acts of the Apostles 21:21 records James the Just explaining his situation to Paul: "They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs." (NRSV)
Cite sources No Original Research
Mark 12:28-34 (NRSV): One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, ‘Which commandment is the first of all?’ Jesus answered, ‘The first is, “ Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.” The second is this, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these.’ Then the scribe said to him, ‘You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that “he is one, and besides him there is no other”; and “to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,” and “to love one’s neighbor as oneself,” —this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.’ When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God.’ After that no one dared to ask him any question.
Matthew 22:35-40 (NRSV): and one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. ‘Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?’ He said to him, ‘”You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.’
Luke 10:25-28 (NRSV): Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. ‘Teacher,’ he said, ‘what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ He said to him, ‘What is written in the law? What do you read there?’ He answered, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.’ And he said to him, ‘You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.’
I think a few lines about this is in order. This is a version of Judaism that does not follow the Jewish rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
It is wrong to equate followers of the Talmud exclusively with Orthodox Judaism. It would probably be more precise to equate Orthodoxy with followers of the Shulhan Aruch. All mainstream modern movements of Judaism, with the exception of the Karaites, give the Talmud some importance. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:30, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the above is accurate. However, all of the modern mainstream forms of Judaism — again, excepting the Karaites — accept Rabbinic Judaism as the legitimate form of Judaism between the Hellenic and Middle Ages. Thus, even movements which reject elements of Rabbinic Judaism (e.g. Reform) still trace their lineage back through Rabbinic Judaism. Note that the leaders of the Reform, Orthodox, Conservative and Reconstructionist movements are all called "Rabbis." All accept the notion that Rabbinic teachings replaced and, until the messiah comes, continue to replace Temple sacrifice; all reject the claim that the messiah has come (claiming either that the messiah will come at the end of history, or that the Davidic monarchy will simply never be restored). These are all important defining features of contemporary Judaism that come from Rabbinic Judaism. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:37, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Source: Raymond E. Brown, Theological Studies #26 (1965) p.545-73 "Does the NT call Jesus God?"
Mk10:18, Lk18:19, Mt19:17, Mk15:34, Mt27:46, Jn20:17, Eph1:17, 2Cor1:3, 1Pt1:3, Jn17:3, 1Cor8:6, Eph4:4-6, 1Cor12:4-6, 2Cor13:14, 1Tm2:5, Jn14:28, Mk13:32, Ph2:5-10, 1Cor15:24-28 are "texts that seem to imply that the title God was not used for Jesus" and are "negative evidence which is often somewhat neglected in Catholic treatments of the subject." Also: "Jesus is never called God in the Synoptic Gospels, and a passage like Mk 10:18 would seem to preclude the possibility that Jesus used the title of himself. Even the fourth Gospel never portrays Jesus as saying specifically that he is God. The sermons which Acts attributes to the beginning of the Christian mission do not speak of Jesus as God. Thus, there is no reason to think that Jesus was called God in the earliest layers of New Testament tradition. This negative conclusion is substantiated by the fact that Paul does not use the title in any epistle written before 58." And "The slow development of the usage of the title God for Jesus requires explanation. Not only is there the factor that Jesus is not called God in the earlier strata of New Testament material, but also there are passages, cited in the first series of texts above, that by implication reserve the title God for the Father. Moreover, even in the New Testament works that speak of Jesus as God, there are also passages that seem to militate against such a usage - a study of these texts will show that this is true of the Pastorals and the Johannine literature. The most plausible explanation is that in the earliest stage of Christianity the Old Testament heritage dominated the use of the title God; hence, God was a title too narrow to be applied to Jesus. It referred strictly to the Father of Jesus, to the God whom he prayed. Gradually, (in the 50's and 60's?) in the development of Christian thought God was understood to be a broader term. It was seen that God had revealed so much of Himself in Jesus that God had to be able to include both Father and Son."
I agree with Jayjg. Certainly, the article should cover this issue (as well as the linked article on the titles of Jesus) but the introduction should be as general as possible to comply with NPOV and not immediately get into claims or possibilities that are distinctive of particular points of view. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:49, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I think it should be "a Son of God", most if not all of the issues associated with that phrase are covered at Son of God.
If the cartoon image (Cobb_jesus.gif) must be included (and I have serious doubts), must it really be the primary image? At least move the images around so that the relevant ones are at the top. It'd be like using a political cartoon as the primary image of George Bush. Ataru 09:32, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think it should be included at all. The message it sends about wikipedia as a site would not be a good one. Frankly, it cheapens the artical to an extent where someone who turned here to do research on Jesus might decide to go somewhere else. The point is, unless there is any justifications, it should not be in the artical, and it certainly should not be at the top for any reason.
I'm proposing to reorganize this article. Life and teachings
I. Introduction (see here Its not done, feel free to edit, and add input) II. Cultural Backround III. Life of Jesus according to New Testemant A. Birth(merge from Birth, death, and resurrection chronology) B. Life and teachings(move and organize) 1. overview 2. teachings and parables C. Death and Resurrection(ditto to Birth) 1. Gethsemane and trial 3. Crucifixtion and Resurrection IV. Christian Movment(probably a better title) V. Religious Views A.-H. same as now VI. Names and titles VII. Historicicty(reason for it being so late, is that you need everything else before you can determine if its historic, could also be placed in front of Religious Views)-also add a relic section underneath here. VIII. Artistic Potrayals IX. Interpretations of Jesus(I originally thought this was duplicating Religious views but have changed my mind as this is almost like a Trivia section) What do y'all think? Newbie222 23:28, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
rv - restore more neutral Ers notation removed by anon IP w/o explanation - see archives
Which are more neutral regarding existence?
Also problem with
Also note difference in meaning of "between" and "from.. to.."
-- JimWae 00:52, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm probably missing it but is the date given for the Gospels 150 AD if so it should be mentioned that many christians and non-christians hold the Gosples to be compiled by 90 AD as is in the Columbia encyclopedia article. I'm probably just missing the actual date given . http://www.bartleby.com/65/ne/NewTesta.html 12.220.47.145 02:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Current consensus of scholarship places Mark around AD 68-70, Matthew and Luke 70-90, and John 90-120. Although you ill find some schollars suggesting dates before and after those. -- Doc (?) 12:52, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the above section - it was clearly un-referenced riginal research. Besides which, I recall an artcle by similar title was afd'd some months ago and deleted for the same reason. Please watch for reinsertion. If the original author is reading ths, please make a case here before reinserting. -- Doc (?) 12:48, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Why is it so important that it is a list. It was suggested under peer review that it not be such, and I will revert and change it back to the last version. Notice the last version is different than the first one I had, I simply put all of the imformation into paragrahp form instead of merging with the other article. Newbie222 13:29, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
First, and seems most importantly: Maimonides said, "It is certain that he is not the One whom the Torah has promised": (No one can be the Messiah, if they died; and Jesus died, therefore, he could not have been the Messiah). What about the Scriptures that prophesy that the Messiah would be "cut off"? These are mentioned in Isaiah, where the (singular) "Servant of the Lord" would be extensively mistreated, rejected by His Own (people; His family, the religious leadership, and most of the nation and people of Israel), and would be "cut off". This historically happened to Jesus of Nazareth, not because He was a false prophet, but because He was and is the Jewish Messiah. Whether the gentiles would have accepted Him or not (which they didn't; the pagan Romans executed Him), Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. Also, not only did the prophet Daniel prophesy that the Messiah would be cut off, he predicted the exact year it would happen (in Daniel's famous prophecy about the "sevens/weeks of years"). Yes, I'm saying that Maimonides was wrong. The question is: "How can a dead man be the Messiah?" And the answer is: His resurrection. Some, but not all, of Israel missed it; that the Messiah would be divine/Yah Himself. Jesus rose from the dead. No human could do what Jesus did. The Messiah, being Yah incarnate, could not be held by the power of Death; but instead, Jesus looted and emptied Hades, leading the righteous dead, including the Hebrew patriarchs, etc. (those who had looked forward to the Messiah, and the resurrection, and had believed and trusted God during their life-times) into Heaven.
We have to many links under this section I'm going to remove the obvious unneccesary links, but I imagine I still will be aways from getting down to 25. So I'm asking everyone which ones they think she be removed ,so that it doesn't get reverted. Newbie222 13:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Here's my current chief to-do list for improving the Jesus article:
That's all I can think of right now, other than going over and copy-editing the last few sections and adding an image or two. - Silence 18:29, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | → | Archive 25 |
Remove the part about Jesus being a prophet of Islam and Bahá'í, its stupid to mention that since Bahá'í and Islam faiths are contradictory to the teachings of JEsus who says that the only way to God is through him. That means you can't mix Christianity with anything else.. I see the mentioning of Bahá'í and Islam at the top as a form of advertisement for those faiths, its and effort to gain more acceptance from Christians and non-Christians who are easily misled.
Of course people these days mix religions without really understanding the religions at all, as if its like playdough.. Create your own religion from your own hands. Christians would say all other faiths are man-made.. At the very least put the references to Islam and Bahá'í at the bottom with all the other Christian inspired cults. hindu and their religion have nothing to do with juses.Hindu avater or someting like that this is only because the want to show to the christen world (dominate religion) they ractify them only because they bow their head to any dominate power of the time.this is only single reason to write something about jesus .do remove this proclamation of Hindu's which is baseless
Why have Bahá'í so close to the top, Bahá'í worshippers would denounce Christ as the only path to God which is what most all Christians believe, and if they don't then can they say they are? Also I don't believe Islam should be mentioned too close to the top. This creates a kind of advertisement for these faiths, and should remain at the bottom just like all the others. If you are going to talk about Christ, talk about Christ, don't try to put advertisements for faiths and denominations at the top.. An Advertisement, adverts people elsewhere, that's what it is.. Secularists tend to want to make everything the same for fear that if there was any dispurportion or bias it would create riots.. Note in the bible Christ says he would bring brother against brother, the purpose for that is that there would be disagreements, you can't make everyone agree.. Christ says his way is the narrow path.. If you go through every prophet, its not narrow is it? Either represent Christ correctly or don't represent him at all!! If you remove this message at least give me your reasons for removing this text, if you have no other reasons and feel it would be upsetting, then why post Christ here if its upsetting, having Christ here on Wikipedia isn't going to release him from existence, he exists whether you want him to or not, he is not just a man, he is God. But you have complete control over what you do until death, after death who does? -- Kiernan Holland 1:01, 27 July 2005 (MST)
It doesnt matter what christians believe jesus said. They could be wrong as well. Maybe jesus never said the only way to god is thru him. Nobody knows. Tell me one thing, how can you put all but one religion at the bottom? Unless you make 20 headings called "Christianity", almost half of the religions have to be closer to the top than the bottom (if you think logically). Why are you so passionate about this anyways? What's wrong with having an article about jesus on wikipedia? We can't write about jesus from the catholic POV only as that would be against wikipedia policies.-- 81.60.81.89 20:21, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Copied from User Talk:JimWae by Jim.
Catholicism does not preach a ‘works’ salvation. They hold that it is necessary to accept grace, merited by the Passion of Christ, to be justified. See catechism. The link you provided showed that this justification is available to all. I ask you to withdraw your revert. The Lutheran-Catholic joint declaration [1] [2] shows that there is little or no difference between these churches on this issue. -- ClemMcGann 21:21, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Since the catechism link is to a long page on which the same words appear many times, perrhpas you could provide the relevant point numbers. The link I provided does not mention grace, so secondly, I have to wonder if the catechism is the ONLY official interpretation. Thirdly, how does a non-Xian freely accept Xian grace? (Perhaps that is another mystery, but from further reading, it appears the word "accept" is not needed.) -- JimWae 22:25, 2005 July 18 (UTC)-- JimWae 22:49, 2005 July 18 (UTC)
Yes, my link does mention grace. I should have extended my remark to say it does not say "accept grace". It says "receive grace" which changes things considerably - without resort to further mystery. Catholics do not believe faith alone (without good action) is sufficient for salvation. I will not look for a source, but let another do so - delete it if you wish.-- JimWae 23:29, 2005 July 18 (UTC)
I'd change it to
I accept your argument regarding my edit,
I suppose it is more an early confirmation of the writings and beliefs rather than source material. But where is your assessment that it was 390? I believe it may have been as early as 1st Century. -- Noitall 04:42, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
As you likely are aware, the creeds were likely written in response to heresies. It took a while for a hierarchy to emerge that could command other teachings (even Gnosticism) as heresy - and parts seem to be about heresies later than Gnosticism - if it had been in place earlier, there'd have been more clarity of doctrine to preclude such heresies & there'd have been less disagreement over the Holy Ghost, the Trinity, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the virgin birth. It is, I suppose, compatible with pre-Nicene teachings, but...
The 390 year regards a written form and comes from
Early fragments of creeds have been discovered which declare simply:
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm
It's also unclear whether it was a precursor to other creeds, a later simplification for children, or something that grew up alongside the others. The Nicene Creed is too complex for kids or those "just learning". Anyway, dating it - even as "likely" - is probably an inconclusive task. -- JimWae 06:00, 2005 July 20 (UTC)
Good analysis. You should put it on the Apostles' Creed page. -- Noitall 01:39, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
Dear Jayik,
Perhaps your editing on 21 July happens to have crossed with mine. Perhaps not. I am very happy for anyone who has something to say about Christian subjects to add this to the Christian perspective, providing always the Christian perspective is being stated first and sufficiently fully and clearly. Moreover that the accounts we derive from the Gospel and the rest of the Bible are stated first, then the Church's teaching, thereafter modern scholars' hypotheses. Unless, someone wants to put the cart before the horse and discuss hypotheses before knowing what they query.
At present the contributors to this article strenously exclude, and keep on editing out, snippets that may help the non-Christian to get a notion as to why people have died a martyr's death, and joyfully so, for the Christian belief. Did they endure being tortured to death because Jesus is the central figure in Christianity? or because another religion regards him as a great prophet? And just in case the modern source hypotheses scholars got it wrong – and truth does not depend on a head count –, would it not be a more balanced presentation to state first the ancient tradition concerning the apostolic origin of the canonical Gospel accounts? Or is this not a neutral point of view, because it is being maintained by the Catholic Church rather than some other religion?
Wikipedia needs to be watchful that its lofty standards do not get violated even and especially in articles dealing with religious beliefs!
Portress 22:49, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
P.S. I have just noticed that my earlier addition to the introductory paragraph has been deleted wherein I mentioned that the correct understanding of the details of the trial and death of Jesus is a hotly debated subject and that their misunderstanding has resulted during the past 2000 years in the shedding of the blood of many who had not been present at the events. Now why should this have been removed? Does anyone want to deny the truth of my assertion? Is it not of the foremost pertinence to the Jewish-Christian dialogue? Have Catholics no right to acknowledge this prominently (cf. Nostra Aetate Section 4 paras 6-7 in Flannery's edition, Vol. I, p. 741)? Who feels offended by this being mentioned? Who considers it irrelevant in the context of the present subject? There is no neutral point of view in religious beliefs, only a balanced presentation; and this terrible issue adds to the balance of this article.
Portress 23:42, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Wish I could help you, but I have no idea how many articles have Jesus in the title - as far as I know there are articles with titles only slightly variant from Jewish view of Jesus & Religious perspectives on Jesus & New Testament view of Jesus & New Testament views of Jesus & Jesus according to the New Testament & Christian perspectives of Jesus & Mormon view of Jesus. Everybody wants to have an article with their version of the truth in it. Try this: List of Jesus-related articles Branch articles are created when a section gets too long -- JimWae 09:02, 2005 July 22 (UTC)
I have added some stuff back to the lead section that I feel is neutral, and also helpful.
With regards to the paragraph:
I feel that this would do better in the main article, and not the lead section.
I have restored quite a few edits removed. A lot of them were very reasonable. - Ta bu shi da yu 05:47, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Further:
I have replaced:
with
You tell me which is more neutral! The first has unsourced speculation and statements. The second has sourced and more neutral writing. It doesn't speculate, it only mentions what was said in the Gospel accounts. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:05, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Hello, Mr. Wae,
I see your edit summary about an edit of mine, and I have a question. (You actually reverted, and maybe should include "rv" or "revert" in the comments, as I noticed you reversed my spelling correction.)
I make reference to your comments here: Revision as of 07:12, 23 July 2005 JimWae (Talk | contribs) Off topic here - already dealt with in Christianity section of this article - and what's there is a bit different from the view removed
1 - First, regarding your comment, "Off topic here", I understand your first concern to be that you think I placed my clarification in the wrong section. At the time of my edit, this seemed an appropriate section, because these quotations of Jesus were His teachings, however, I think you may have a good point. These views would also be Christian beliefs also. Before you would edit and reverse my edits, please review my three points.
2 - Next, you state that my clarification was "already dealt with in Christianity section of this article." You seem to be correct, but I felt that this clarification seemed necessary to highlight a distinction in the "faith vs works" in their Christian beliefs. I still feel that way, and I hope you consider this in your review of my more recent edit.
3 - My main question revolves around your comments above that "and what's there is a bit different from the view removed." This would seem to imply either one of two things.
Thank you in advance. I do not have time for protracted "edit discussion" or "edit wars." I am hoping to add clarification on points that are not easily intuitive or understood and would hope that you would concur to provide this useful information to the readers on the subtle shades and points of the beliefs systems. If I have erred, please make clarifications or corrections, but please include as much useful information as is possible. ~ For example, if you think that the view I stated is not held by all Christians, please make distinctions and clarifications on which Christians do not hold these beliefs, and change the article to reflect the current information.
I hope I was helpful to your page.-- GordonWattsDotCom 08:30, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Re:
I will explain again more
I tried to get the two sentences to say exactly what they mean, perhaps it could be done in a better way. Here is what I tried to say in these two sentences:
(you wrote) The lead is discussing Jesus & whatever we know about him. We "know" very little about Jesus from the GoT - (only partly because it is read by few) - but likely we would "know" little more anyway - though we might have a few more things to speculate about. It adds to speculation, but does not improve what we "know" about him.
(you wrote) The G of T will not likely ever become a primary source.
Thanks,
Scott P. 21:15, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
You do not have to say it all in the lead. I had introduced the topic in the lead (which you deleted). I have tried again - but doubt other editors will let specific mention of Thomas stand in lead, but if "the dozen" stays, you have an opening to discuss it in the main body -- Actually you do not even need that in the lead to discuss it in main article-- JimWae 21:23, 2005 July 23 (UTC)
In the opening section, it is stated that most scholars believe two things
In contrast, I maintain the following:
This opens a whole other set of concerns. First of all, di the authors of the Gospels have the same understanding of "historical reliability" that we do? If so, no problem -- but if not, if they applied other criteria to determine the "truthfulness" of a text, then the fact that the atuhors of the Gospels claimed that they were truthful does not mean that by our own criteria they are historically accurate. In your quote above, you suggest historians distinguish between "legendary accounts" and soemthing else (historical accounts?) But what if people back then did not make this distinction? Or if instead of distinguishing between legendary accounts and historical accounts, they further distinguished between five other kinds of accounts we don't even recognize? All I am saying is that understaning what the Gospel authors thought about their own writings may not be at all obvious. For example, some people may have sincerely believed that they had an encounter with Jesus after he was crucified, and that this is proof of his resurrection. The claim "the author of the text believed this" may be accurate. But that doesn't mean that the what the author believed happened is an accurate account of what happened. Second, what are you referring to as "these writings?" Most scholars mnay agree that the Gospels were originally written down by the second century. But do we actually have these original texts? If we rely on later manuscripts, how do we know that they accurately represent the original texts? Bart Ehrman, in The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, has observed a number of places in the Gospels where, for ideological reasons or by accident, it is likely that the process of transcription led to various changes between the original text and what we had in the 5th century, or today. Let's say that the original writings were accurate. Okay, but we do not have those writings on our possession. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:14, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
:Silence's version: "
As all historians and scientists must agree we must return to the facts and relics in existence today about a man called and known to be Jesus of Nazareth. The Romans speak of him in passing so he did in fact exist if we believe Roman history. Today we have a sample of his blood in the Sudarium found in the Cathedral of Oviedo, Spain. It is safely guarded and a treasure of Spain. Tests are being done on its DNA to see if this man was truly non human or a human with a different physical structure than the rest of the billions of humans out there. We know that turban was found untouched where this man was placed after he was taken down from the cross. We know too that the Roman soldiers that were responsible for making sure his body did not disappear were either incompentents, given sleeping gas, or were threatened or bought out not to tell what happened to the body. Now, everything that has come after has been a mere reconstruction of events which are needed by some men to try to explain sensations and thoughts which science has still not been able to explain thorough and convincingly. But lets be real here, what do we really know? We do not even know where he was buried if in fact he was dead and if in fact they placed his body in some tomb. All I have as a scientist to go on is his blood found in the Sudarium. If you read Asarim you will understand what I mean. I expect a reply from all you scholars out there trying to prove the existence of non existence of something without evidence. Forget works written 30 some years after the fact. That is worthless oral tradition. I need proof. Scientific proof. The only thing we really have is the Sudarium which supposedly covered this man's head and is full of his blood.
from Matthew
My translation has a note for he handed him over36, noting it can also be translated "delivered him up"
It was suggested there was no textual support for saying Jesus was handed over to the Roman "execution squad". Looking not only at the reality of politics of the day but also at the text, there is plenty of support for that claim - and it contines on & on in Matthew
Matthew & Mark make it very clear the Romans did the crucifying. Luke & John use more passive voice & non-referential pronouns. I think it likely when/if the crowd called for Barabbas, they were calling for the "son of the father" --but I do not think there was snowball's chance Pilate would free a any seditionist at all. -- JimWae 08:04, 2005 July 26 (UTC)
The recently added footnote is way too detailed - imagine how it would be if we added a paragraph on every scholar who has an opinion about Jesus. Shall we move this to the article about the quoted scholar? DJ Clayworth 19:05, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
To the person who put he footnote back - please read what I say and explain why you think I am wrong. A few points: 1) There is a lot to say about Jesus. We are barely skimming the surface. To have a whole paragraph from one scholar, not even a particularly major one, is unbalenced. 2) The view that Jesus was a Pharisee is a minority one. Given again the number of people with an interest in this subject, any view not subscribed to by at least a few hundred million people is probably better left until later in the article. I'm not saying it shouldn't go in the article, but the intro is reserved for the briefest overview. DJ Clayworth 22:10, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Rather, what "tells a great deal" about believers in a notion, is when they cast extreme accusations against conclusions, regardless of whether they are drawn for causes entirely separate from the charged fault. There are many reasons not to place Jesus among the Pharisee party, and it is quackery, conspiracy theory and sensationalism that would discount those reasons in favor of the theory that the real roots of the contrary opinion are in anti-semitism. Somebody is selling something. Mkmcconn (Talk) \
Please sign your notes in talk. Mkmcconn (Talk) 23:36, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
It is beyond thought that Jesus would be considered a Pharisee; the label is a slur to those who seek the Spirit. They were doctors of the law, but did not understand the law. I don't believe Christ ever referred to them in a kindly light.
T's point is that it does not belong in the lead and not that it does not belong. If you are committed to it, put it lower in the article. I agree with T. Storm Rider 23:49, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I think we're gaining consensus that This is a strong claim that requires a great deal of support, especially to suggest it is a major uncontested position except by antisemites.-- Tznkai 00:13, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
from http://www.duke.edu/religion/home/EP/sanders.html
"E.P. SANDERS (1990) received his Th.d. from Union Seminary (NY) 1966. In 1990, he was awarded a D. Litt. by the University of Oxford and D.Theol. by the University of Helsinki. He is a Fellow of the British Academy. The author, co-author or editor of thirteen books, as well as articles in encyclopedias and journals, he has received several awards and prizes, including the Grawemeyer Prize for the best book on religion published in the 1980s (Jesus and Judaism). His work has been translated into nine different languages. He came to Duke from Oxford, where he was from 1984-1990 the Dean Ireland's Professor of Exegesis and also fellow of the Queen's College."
from http://www.duke.edu/religion/home/EP/Intel%20autobiog%20rev.pdf
"To put the main arguments of the book briefly: Jesus was a prophet of the restoration of Israel, who began as a follower of an eschatological prophet (John the Baptist), and whose ministry resulted in an eschatological Jewish movement (early Christianity, especially as seen in Paul’s letters). He pointed to restoration in word and deed, proclaiming the kingdom as soon to arrive and indicating the restoration of Israel especially by calling the Twelve. He made dramatic symbolic gestures pointing to this hope. One of them, overthrowing tables in the temple court, led Caiaphas to the view that he might start a riot. The requirements of the Roman system resulted in his execution. His followers continued his movement, expecting him to return to re-establish Israel. This naturally led to their incorporation of the prophetic hope that in the last days the Gentiles would turn to worship the God of Israel."
E.P Sanders may be a brilliant and well-respected scholar; I don't dispute that. But in this field I can name a hundred people who are equally brilliant and well-respected. Should all of them have a paragraph in this article explaining their views? It would make the article unbalenced. As is said above, a point of view has to be exceptionally widely held to belong in the opening paragraph, and this doesn't make it. Absolutely no objection to it being mentioned later in the article. (But please don't bring the quote back. I copied it to E.P. Sanders page. DJ Clayworth 13:40, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
There certainly are other important critical Bible scholars, but I can't agree with DJ Clayworth's claim that there are a 100 just like him. He is among the five or six most frequently cited, well-respected historians of Jesus. As such his views should be prominent (but by no means exclusive!) in any article or section on "the historical Jesus." As long as we make the distinction between the historical Jesus and the Christian Jesus clear, Tznkai's comments are just irrelevant. Of course Catholics, Protestants, and other groups of Christians will have their own accounts of Jesus's life. And if a person spends most of his time discussing Jesus with people whose knowledge of Jesus is mediated through their relation, there is no reason to think s/he'd ever hear anything about Sanders (or Vermes, Fredriksen, Meier, Ehrman, maybe Crossan and a few other top-ranked criticle Bible scholars). That does not mean that Sanders is not important nor that his views are not widely shared. They are widely shared (or at least, some of his views are) by most critical Bible scholars. Discussion of their views should be in a section "the historical Jesus" and a detailed discussion of their views should be in a separate article. It would be ideal to have all points of view equally represented in this article, but we won't have the space for it. But we definitely have to acknowledge some of the major views of critical scholars. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps you need to check our NPOV policy. No one view should dominate. Look at it this way: only about a third of the world's population is Christian. That means that two-thirds of the world's population either believe Jesus never existed, or believe that he existed but was not a god. Now, of this 66% of the world's population, I can't say how many know of Sanders' works — I conceded that it is probably a small number. But whether they know his name or not they are more likely to share his views than those of Christians. I will further concede to you that Sanders (and Vermes and Fredriksen and Meier and others) views should not be presented as "mainstream opinion." But I would then have to insist that there is no "mainstram opinion" or whatever you believe is "mainstream opinion" should not be expressed in this article. There are simply different points of view — the scholarly (we'd have to add "critical" so as to distinguish them from Catholic or Protestant scholars who work within the framework of their theology) view, the Roman Catholic view, and so on. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Okay, Tznkai. I appreciate your clearing up your position which is not very distant from my own. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 21:09, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Because the article would get too long (technically, too long for many servers). Thus, the bulk of what you suggest should be in linked pages. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:39, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but whether highly notable or less notable, this article (the main one) at least has to mention it, if not provide a brief summary, and provide a link to the larger, dedicated article. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
--I'm pretty sure that's Lil Kim and NOT Walleij's Jesus.
I can't help feeling that the Walleij painting would be practically unknown (and in my opinion, deservedly unknown) if it weren't for Wikipedia displaying it on this page. Personally, I dislike it intensely; so, it may be that my personal taste is getting in the way of a sound opinion. If a non-traditional pictoral representation of Jesus is sought, Rembrandt van Rijn's "Head of Christ" is much more familiar. Am I alone in this? Mkmcconn (Talk) 19:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
You are not alone, but it is what it is; art. It is certainly not a common interpretation. The article includes several other pictures; but I am surprised not to see the crucified Christ and Christ risen. Storm Rider 19:43, 26 July 2005 (UTC)</nowiki>
The article, Georges Rouault, has an image that I would prefer over the Walleij. If there's no objection, I'm using that. If there is objection while the page is still protected, let me know and I'll revert it to bring the issue back under discussion. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 18:11, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Add Emmet Fox The Sermon on the Mount: The Key to Success in Life and the Lord's Prayer : An Interpretation
Add Swami Prabhavananda Sermon on the Mount According to Vedanta
Actually, Sermon on the Mount would cover them both plus provide more info.
Replace The Passion of the Christ with Dramatic portrayals of Jesus as it covers that movie and others
Add Raymond E. Brown 1928-1998 Union Theological Seminary Professor Emeritus, Does the New Testament call Jesus God?, Theological Studies #26, 1965, pp.545-573
Just a note: to link to a category, make sure you include a lead-in colon in thw link. Otherwise, the link doesn't work, and the page is included in the category. For example, [[:Category:Mythology]] results in a link to Category:Mythology, whereas [[Category:Mythology]] only includes the page in the category. -- Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 22:38, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Could someone please add [[Category:Mythology]] once this is unprotected, as this category is blatently missing. unsigned comment by user:FestivalOfSouls -- Jtkiefer T | @ | C ----- 21:23, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
You are pursuing a policy that can only be implemented by brute force. It invites edit wars, and proposes to solve the conflict it creates by encouraging all editors to adopt your POV. This is not neutrality. it is argumentation. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 20:53, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Reaaly quick folks, before I get into this ugly mess of POV accusations: This article is on Jesus, also called the Christ. It is not the christian view of Jesus. It is not the Muslim view of Jesus. The vast majority of historian's agree that a guy named Jesus ran around preaching. This is not myth anymore than the moonlanding is a myth. The fact that singificant portions of the population disagree does nto make it a myth. This is an article on a figure and his effects, in summary. The ressurection, the Bible, the religious views, the parables, the miracles. Those are all myth. They may also be true, but they are myth. Thats what I think anyway-- Tznkai 15:29, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
There is a major misunderstanding going on here. I recognize that popularly, most people use the word "myth" to mean "not real." But this is not how scholars use the word, as as an encyclopedia we should try to represent the scholarship on any given issue. What definies a myth is not whether it actually happened or not, but that people refer to it as a way of giving meaning to their lives, or explaining how they live their lives to themselves and others. Most beliefs N. Americans have about the "founding fathers" — including beliefs that are based on documented, historically acurate events, are "myths" in this sense. It also follows that "myth" refers to a stories about people and events, not to people and events themselves (e.g. Paul Bunyan and George Washington are not "myths," they are "objects of myth"). There is no doubt that at the very least many people treat the NT account of Jesus as a myth, and in so doing are not making claims one way or the other as to whether Jesus existed. They use the word "myth" to refer to an account, a narrative, a text. Stories about the US moonlanding of course are myths, not because they are historically innaccurate but because they play such an important role in how N. Americans understand themselves and their country. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:40, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
A few points. 1) Because an article contains some things about a subject doesn't mean it should be in the category for that subject. Otherwise the category for a city will end up including the article for everyone who visited that city. 2) We need to be able to distinguish between Christian stories that are accepted as true (by Christians) and those that are not. 3) While technically 'myth' does include true stories, that is not a widely held understanding and is likely to be confusing.
The best category for these articles that Festival is flagging is something like Christian Doctrine or Christian theology. That really tells us what we need to know. DJ Clayworth 17:27, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
The Gospels record that he was often at odds with Jewish authorities for opposing their religious establishment and for making frequent statements alluding to his deity; for these reasons, he was was crucified in Jerusalem during the rule of the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate
The intro now reads:
I like this, but the portion after the semicolon is also reported by the gospels (and I don't believe them — hence my concern). I'm not sure how to implement this, else I'd do it myself. -- goethean ॐ 17:23, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
How about this:
Jesus was either: 1) killed by the Jews, by "handing him over" to the Romans, because he claimed to be God, or 2) crucified by the Roman Pontius Pilate and his quisling Caiaphas for causing a disturbance, overturning tables, at Herod's Temple. Interpretation 1 was and still is popular, however it is the root of antisemitism. Instead, many modern Christians have embraced interpretation 2, which is more in accord with the history of 1st century Roman occupied Judea.
it's not (1) vs. (2), it's a combination. Jesus was causing some hysteria in town, the religious notables came clamoring he was a heretic, and the Romans just crucified him as a troublemaker without batting an eyelid. You didn't have to have messiah aspirations or special powers to be crucified in those days, I suppose a few important enemies and no important friends was enough to land you on the cross for pickpocketing. And frankly, regarding 'guilt', crucifying pickpockets I find morally much more questionable than crucifying shady characters that are suspected of revolutionary conspiracy, making oblique comments about their royalty when questioned, and whose minions go about cutting off occupation forces soldiers' ears. Jesus' crucifixion would have been such a non-event had he not risen, afterwards (and it is asking rather too much of religious and political authorities to have predicted that course of events).
dab
(ᛏ) 09:21, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I have no idea what it means to say that "the mainstream" view is that "the Jews" didn't like him. There were lots of Jews, many of whom probably didn't even know Jesus existed. What does it mean to say "the Jews?" "Jews" refers to some group of people. "The Jews" refers to all people classified as "Jews," right? What is the function of the definite article? In any event, "the mainstream view" is hard to pin down. I do think that we can strive to summarize the NT account as neutrally as possible. In other articles that focus specifically on Christian interpretations, it won't be too hard to find official or authorized accounts of how major Churches interpret the events leading to Jesus' execution. In another article, we provide an account of what different historians think (and none of the major historians I know of think that Jesus pissed off "the Jews"). Also, to say he wasn't well-liked is not at all reasonable. There is as much evidence that he was liked as that he wasn't well-liked. Moreover, the crux of the story, for both Christians and critical historians, is not that he was executed because he "wasn't well-liked," this is a meaningless statement. The question is, why exactly did the Jewish authorities turn him over to Pilate, and why did Pilate order his execution? "Not well liked" is no explanation at all. Lots of people are not well-liked, but they don't get crucified for it! Slrubenstein | Talk 15:50, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay, in this case, then, it is simply an error to use the phrase "the Jews" and I ask you, with respect, not to use it this way again. Nevertheless, the fact remains that the NT account can be interpreted different ways, and that most critical historians I know of disagree with your view. Based on my reading of both the NT and historians, I definitely do not believe that he was killed because "he was very much disliked," at least if we are using the words "dislike" and "like" they way they are usually used in English. What is your source? Slrubenstein | Talk 16:27, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Goethean, you are quite right about that sentence in particular. But as I am sure you are aware of (and certainly various Christian denominations are aware of this) such passages have been sore points for Jews. In any event, my point in this talk section was not about the "according to john" claim, which is specific and appropriately phrased to comply with NPOV; it concerned more general factual claims being made by another editor. As for Tsnkai, I am sorry you are ill. However, if you think I am playing a semantic game, you entirely misunderstand my point, which has to do with accuracy as well as complying with our NPOV and NOR policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:34, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Frankly, I am not offended -- I simply (1) asked what you meant by "the jews" and (2) observed (accurately) that many Jews have found those passages from John to be offensive. As to your point, Tznkai, I have to admit — and I am not saying this because I am angry or offended or disrespectful — I do not understand what you are getting at. You are right that the policies I invoked do not apply to talk pages. But talk pages are for discussing ways to improve the article. I still do not understand how the claim "the Jews did not like Jesus" can add anything to the article. So I am just being honest: I do not get your point. Can you explain it to me? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:56, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I still think that since talk pages are meant to contribute to the article, it is simply pointless for us to try to figure out what most people would agree too, as that is original research and prohibited. As far as what would be a factually accurate, NPOV statement, all I can suggest is this "Among those people who believe that Jesus existed, all agree that he was crucified by the Roman authorities." Anything beyond that has to be in the plural ("there are various explanations as to why he was executed. According to the Catholic Church ... According to historians A and B ... According to historians X and Y ..." etc.) Slrubenstein | Talk 18:20, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I'd like to accommodate you, but I am not sure what you mean by ":'s" Slrubenstein | Talk 12:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Jesus was either: 1) killed by the Jews, by "handing him over" to the Romans, because he claimed to be God, or 2) crucified by the Roman Pontius Pilate and his quisling Caiaphas for causing a disturbance, overturning tables, at Herod's Temple, or 3) a combination of the above. Interpretation 1 was and still is popular, however it is the root of antisemitism. Instead, many modern Christians have embraced interpretation 2, which is more in accord with the historical context of 1st century Roman occupied Judea.
Jesus was either: 1) killed by the Jews, by "handing him over" to the Romans, because he claimed to be God, or 2) crucified by the Roman Pontius Pilate and his quisling Caiaphas for overturning tables at Herod's Temple, or 3) a combination of the above. Interpretation 1 was and still is popular, although it is widely viewed as antisemitic. Interpretation 2 is more in accord with the historical context of 1st century Roman occupied Judea.
I guess my problem is the term "Anti-Semitic". Yes, the fact that Jesus was turned over by the Sanhedrin to Pilate has been used by anti-Semites, but the mere fact is that is what happened. It may be politically incorrect to talk about, but it is hardly anti-Semitic. It is a fact. Granted, was have had some reconstructionist historians who have attempted to cast Pilate as someone who would have sought Jesus out had he the opportunity, but scripture is clear. The Sanhedrin arrested Jesus, tried him, and found him guilty. The Sanhedrin turned Jesus over to Pilate because they themselves were not able to put Jesus to death. I see no problem with stating it the way it is recorded in the bible. I also see no problem with adding the thoughts of others as to why the Sanhedrin felt it necessary or why Pilate and the Romans implemented it. Just stay with the facts as we know them and forget about being polically incorrect. Also, do not say the Jews did it, as a people they did not; the Sanhedrin turned Jesus over, not the Jews. Storm Rider 19:29, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
spelling error: seperate (should be spelled: separate) CapeCodEph 00:41, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I am reverting back to my native colors of blue to get a little attention to my points above, which —oddly enough —seem to be ignored. Thank you for the heads up on the spelling of separate, which I often misspell, but in this case, there were no misspelling of this word on this page ...wait! I see in the main article a misspelling- thx 4 the heads up, Cape Cod. Another Biology and Chem. double major, eh? You're smart! THANK YOU for pointing out this spelling error -but, oops! I see the page's locked. Oh that bad luck. When I team up w/ spell check I'm smart too, but I'd better stick to my genetics, biology, chemistry, and politics/religion stuff -that spelling stuff's best left to computers.-- GordonWattsDotCom 20:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm confused. Who are "the Jews"? Isn't that construction just inherently a) anti-Semitic and b) meaningless?
We could just put "Jesus was killed by Jesus-killers". ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 16:05, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Jesus was either: #1) killed by the Jews, by "handing him over" to the Romans, because he claimed to be God; or #2) crucified by the Roman Pontius Pilate and his quisling Caiaphas for overturning tables at Herod's Temple; or #3) a combination of the above. #1 has always been popular but is widely viewed as antisemitic, whereas #2 is derived from the historical context of 1st century Roman occupied Judea.
You should read this book: Crossan, John Dominic. Who Killed Jesus?: Exposing the Roots of Anti-Semitism in the Gospel Story of the Death of Jesus
Crossan's book is here:
From Publishers Weekly In a book sure to generate both conversation and controversy, John Dominic Crossan, author of two well-regarded books on the historical Jesus, names the New Testament Gospels' insistence on Jewish responsibility for Jesus' death as Christianity's "longest lie." Crossan argues particularly against many of the theories posed in Raymond Brown's The Death of the Messiah. While Brown finds that many of the events in the stories of Jesus' last days are plausible historically, Crossan claims that almost none of the events are historical. According to Crossan, they are "prophesy historicized," accounts written by looking back at the Old Testament and other early materials and then projecting those prophecies on whatever historical events occurred. Because many of those early writers were persecuted by the Jewish authorities, they threw in a heavy dose of propaganda against the Jews. As Crossan aptly states, these gospels were relatively harmless when Christians were a small sect. When, however, Rome became Christian, those anti-Semitic narratives became, and continue to be, lethal. Well argued and highly readable, Who Killed Jesus? also includes an important epilogue stating Crossan's own faith perspectives on the divinity and resurrection of Christ. Scholars rarely go this far, yet such a confession provides another valuable entry into this fascinating material. Copyright 1995 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
From Library Journal The two main theses of this extraordinary book are that the roots of anti-Semitism spring from gospel narratives of the death of Jesus and that the Romans, not the Jews, killed Jesus as a revolutionary agitator inimical to their continued governance of Judea. Crossan, a former Roman Catholic priest and now a noted expert on the life of Jesus, fascinatingly describes here two types of historical writing: 1) history remembered?history written as it actually happened?and 2) prophecy historicized, a tendentious interpretation of what really happened made to conform to or "fulfill" ancient prophecies?in this case, supposed prophecies about the life of Jesus uttered by Hebrew prophets. According to Crossan, the passion accounts blaming the Jews for Jesus' arrest and crucifixion are based on this second type of writing and are thus myths if not downright lies. He pleads for a reevaluation of the passion stories, which have caused such animus toward Jews for the past 2000 years. An excellent study for lay readers and specialists; recommended for larger religion collections.?Robert A. Silver, formerly with Shaker Heights P.L., Ohio Copyright 1995 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
From Booklist Given the conjunction of concern with Jesus and public discourse in the ascendancy of the "Christian coalition" in our own historical moment, Crossan's decision to make this argument available to a popular audience is a timely one. Briefly, Crossan contends that the understanding of the passion narratives in the canonical Gospels as historical "fact" is not only wrong, but also dangerous. It is dangerous because of the particular way in which the confusion of "interpretation" and "fact" came in this case to be backed by power. Crossan notes that, for Christians, the Gospel accounts are divinely inspired, but that inspiration comes through human beings in human communities and can come as inspired propaganda. When Christianity was a relatively powerless sect within Judaism struggling like other sects for the hearts and minds of the Jewish community, its propaganda about "Jewish responsibility and Roman innocence" was relatively harmless. But as Christianity and the Roman Empire became inextricably linked, that propaganda became the lethal basis for transition from a theological controversy within a religious community to propaganda directed by one religious community against another to genocidal anti-Semitism. What may have been relatively harmless propaganda at its origins has become, Crossan argues, "the longest lie." The scholarly debate behind this discussion asks whether the passion narrative is derived from "history remembered" or from "prophecy historicized." Crossan has argued consistently for the second option, and he wrote this book largely in response to Raymond Brown's influential Death of the Messiah, which defends the first. The book is a lucid, accessible guide to the controversy, but, more important, it is one of the best accounts of how prejudice is transformed into racism in the conjunction of mythological and political power. Steve Schroeder--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
Booklist "Given the conjunction of concern with Jesus and public discourse in the ascendancy of the 'Christian coalition' in our own historical moment, Crossan's decision to make this argument available to a popular audience is a timely one. Briefly, Crossan contends that the understanding of the passion narratives in the canonical Gospels as historical 'fact' is not only wrong, but also dangerous. It is dangerous because of the particular way in which the confusion of 'interpretation' and 'fact' came in this case to be backed by power. Crossan notes that, for Christians, the Gospel accounts are divinely inspired, but that inspiration comes through human beings in human communities and can come as inspired propaganda. When Christianity was a relatively powerless sect within Judaism, struggling like other sects for the hearts and minds of the Jewish community, its propaganda about 'Jewish responsibility' and 'Roman innocence' was relatively harmless. But as Christianity and the Roman Empire became inextricably linked, that propaganda became the lethal basis for transition from a theological controversy within a religious community to propaganda directed by one religious community against another to genocidal anti-Semitism. What may have been relatively harmless propaganda at its origins has become, Crossan argues, 'the longest lie.' The scholarly debate behind this discussion asks whether the passion narrative is derived from 'history remembered' or from 'prophecy historicized.' Crossan has argued consistently for the second option, and he wrote this book largely in response to Raymond Brown's influential Death of the Messiah, which defends the first. The book is a lucid, accessible guide to the controversy, but, more important, it is one of the best accounts of how prejudice is transformed into racism in the conjunction of mythological and political power."
Book Description The death of Jesus is one of the most hotly debated questions in Christianity today. In his massive and highly publicized The Death of the Messiah, Raymond Brown -- while clearly rejecting anti-Semitism -- never questions the essential historicity of the passion stories. Yet it is these stories, in which the Jews decide Jesus' execution, that have fueled centuries of Christian anti-Semitism. Now, in his most controversial book, John Dominic Crossan shows that this traditional understanding of the Gospels as historical fact is not only wrong but dangerous. Drawing on the best of biblical, anthropological, sociological and historical research, he demonstrates definitively that it was the Roman government that tried and executed Jesus as a social agitator. Crossan also candidly addresses such key theological questions as "Did Jesus die for our sins?" and "Is our faith in vain if there was no bodily resurrection?" Ultimately, however, Crossan's radical reexamination shows that the belief that the Jews killed Jesus is an early Christian myth (directed against rival Jewish groups) that must be eradicated from authentic Christian faith.
With all due respect to everyone I do not see the point of continuing this thread.
Really, I am not blowing my own horn here, but do we really need to say anything more than this? Slrubenstein | Talk 03:13, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure that it's appropriate to add a fourth Eastern Orthodox icon, especially under the "Other Perspectives" subsection. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 16:07, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
In 1998, the Jesus Seminar published The Acts of Jesus: The Search for the Authentic Deeds of Jesus ( ISBN 0060629789). [6] In summary: Jesus was born in Nazareth during the reign of Herod the Great, his mother was Mary and he had a human father who was probably not Joseph. He was baptized by John the Baptist who was later beheaded by Herod Antipas. He was an "itinerant sage who shared meals with social outcasts" and "practiced healing without the use of ancient medicine or magic, relieving afflictions we now consider psychosomatic" though some claimed he did this in the name of Beelzebul. He proclaimed the coming of "God's imperial rule". He was arrested in Jerusalem and crucified by the Romans as a "public nuisance", specifically for overturning tables at Herod's Temple, not for claiming to be the Son of God, during the period of Pontius Pilate and Caiaphas. Belief in the resurrection is based on the visionary experiences of Paul, Peter, and Mary.
To whom it may concern,
Recently
Phatcat68 added this article to the 'Diety' category, then
Mkmcconn reverted the article back out of this category. While I agree with Mkmcconn's revert, still I think that the question of whether or not Jesus was a diety bears some comment here.
Within traditional Christian theology, apparently whether or not Jesus was truly a diety would remain as what I would call, 'in the mystery department'. By this I mean that unfortunately, traditional Christian theology is self contradictory on this subject, and therefore the question of this subject, when pressing hard enough, will generally result in an answer that runs something like, "Don't you know, this is one of the Christian 'mysteries'", essentially meaning, "please don't ask me any more questions about this, because I really haven't a clue."
Unfortunately this would appear to be an easy theological 'stock' answer given to any points of contradiction within traditional Christian theology. As the answer to this question will forever remain amongst the traditional Christian 'mysteries', I agree with this revert. I agree that it is not fair to assert that the the most common answer to this question from the majority of traditonal Christians would be any kind of clear 'yes'. Instead it would more likely be, "Well, he's God's Son, but he's also God made flesh, but he's part of the Trinity which means that he's different from God, but the three are really all the same, uh.... gee, ya got me....". Thank God for Wiki. Questions and comments like this that are now freely posted on this page would have probably gotten us all turned into heretical shis-kabob delights about 400 years ago!
I recognize that the fact that the G of T is believed by many Biblical scholars to predate the canonical Gospels may be somewhat disconscerting to some. I say this because in some ways this implies that some earlier suppositions that some may have based years of their dilligent studies upon, may need to be slightly revised. Still, obviously these types of unsubstantiated edits regarding the G of T will remain as being considered POV and will be reverted, unless the editor might be able to substantiate any further such edits with documentation here on this discussion page.
I apologize for my insistence here, but I believe that there is a great wealth of information and understanding that can be gained via the study of the G of T, and that by trying to be open minded enough to consider the possibility that Christianity as it was essentially fossilized by Constantine in the early 4th century, only slightly de-fossilized by the reformation in the 16th century, and only slightly more de-fossilized beginning with Vatican II as convened by Pope John XXIII, may not be entirely complete, and that we may still have many things that we can learn fresh. Thanks for putting up with this rant.
Sincerely,
- Scott P. 16:59, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
In this context, "account" means "narrative". Does this help you? — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 22:08, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the category "Murdered activist", which was added by an anon IP a minute ago, because I feel that the category does not apply in this case and is POV-ing the article. If you disagree, let me know! Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 19:32, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
"although he is also reported in the New Testament to have heard Jesus ask why he was persecuting him on the road to Damascus and to have had scales on his eyes which fell off when he met the person he was foretold to meet". This is placed in the opening paragraphs, but it seems slightly OTT for the article on Jesus to be placed there. And what is the point--is it inserted to lead the reader to a conclusion, or is it irrelevant? I suggest moving the facts contained to another section of the article or another article altogether (one on Paul?). -- Peter Kirby 00:13, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe in the principle of total evidence. Paul did not reportedly only see Jesus in a vision but he also reportedly heard Jesus and was told to meet a man and which point the scales fell off of his eyes.
Someone removed this sentence:
At the other end of the spectrum are historians which have been very favorable to the Christian claim of the resurrection and did not believe the Christ myth was plausible - scholars such as Thomas Arnold [7], A. N. Sherwin-White [8] [9], and Michael Grant. [10] [11] [12]
Why is someone like Doherty who denies the existence of Jesus mentioned which is a extremely minority position but opinions/arguments by noted Professors/historians opinions deleted. I strongly object to its removal.
ken 00:37, 11 August 2005 (UTC)kdbuffalo
I made the sentence more concise.
It now reads:
At the other end of the spectrum are historians which have been very favorable to the Christian claims regarding Jesus such as the resurrection. Historians which were favorable to a historical resurrection of Jesus include: Thomas Arnold [13], A. N. Sherwin-White [14] [15], and Michael Grant. [16] [17] [18]
I also restored the mithraism footnote so readers can see where it is located in relation to the claim made in the body of the text.
ken 00:49, 11 August 2005 (UTC)kdbuffalo
I just deleted:
which comes from an unknown and as far as I can tell uncredible author. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:05, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
"They resented Roman occupation, but in Jesus' time were relatively apolitical."
This statement is patently false and an attempt to force a POV onto an historical epoc. For starters, it's contradicted by the later statement:
"Many Jews hoped that the Romans would be replaced by a Jewish king (or Messiah) of the line of King David — in their view the last legitimate Jewish regime."
That is not an expression of "apolitical". Obviously, to rephrase this statement, many Jews hoped that the Romans would be replaced by the Kingdom of God which meant restoration of the Davidic Kingdom. THIS IS VERY POLITICAL!
Secondly, the statement that the Judeans of Iudaea Province were apolitical is equivalent to claiming the French under German occupation were apolitical or that the Kurds under American occupation are relatively apolitical.
Huh? During the time in question these words were in flux, but Judean had come to refer to a geopolitical entity, and Jew to the people inhabiting it and other places. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:02, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous user, please give me your sources. Mine are Shaye JD Cohen, the preeminent historian of the period in Jewish history, and EP Sanders, one of the preeminent historians studying early Christian history. On what do you base your claims about first century Judea? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:02, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
An example of translation error:
But wait! Galileans aren't Jews? Galileans are Jews but not Judeans. Jesus walked in Galilee because he feared the Judeans! More like this:
And who are the "Jews" in Judea? They are Judeans, of course. See how much easier things are when you translate correctly? In Latin:
SUMMARY: IUDAEI=Judeans, not Jews
The situation is identical in Greek, it's just harder to write in Greek, maybe someone else would like to do that.
This is sophistry, not scholarship. Saducees, Pharisees, and Essenes were all Jews. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Better info on Idumeans: Antipater the Idumaean
"For there are three philosophical sects among the Jews. The followers of the first of which are the Pharisees; of the second, the Sadducees; and the third sect, which pretends to a severer discipline, are called Essenes." Josephus The Jewish War 8:2. Three, not four, and the word used is best translated as "schools."
"Now when that feast, which was observed after seven weeks, and which the Jews called Pentecost, (i. e. the 50th day,) was at hand, its name being taken from the number of the days [after the passover], the people got together, but not on account of the accustomed Divine worship, but of the indignation they had ['at the present state of affairs']. Wherefore an immense multitude ran together, out of Galilee, and Idumea, and Jericho, and Perea, that was beyond Jordan; but the people that naturally belonged to Judea itself were above the rest, both in number, and in the alacrity of the men." This is from The Jewish War 3:1. Obviously Josephus is including Galileans as Jews. The reason that there were more Judeans present was because Jerusalem is in Judea. But Jews from outside of Judea did go up to Jerusalem for Shavuot. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:22, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
What is my point? Well, Anonymous user (it would really help if you registered and signed in), another anonbymous user wrote "2nd Temple Jews = Judeans, as distinct from all Jews throughout history," although as you point out this is a false equation. I agree that at certain times in history Judean is more precise than Jew. Now, let's go back to what that other anonymous user wrote, "Most Judeans wanted an end to Roman occupation," and I am still waiting for a source for this claim. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:45, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Note it says "many of the wise men were deceived". Josephus says "the Jews" thought the oracle (Torah has become oracle, a concept familiar to Greco-Romans) meant a Jew would rise to rule the earth, i.e. the Messianic King, however, says Josephus, this was foolishness, as the oracle actually predicted that Vespasian would be appointed Roman Emperor on Jewish soil and that Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed. After the Roman-Jewish Wars, Judaism and the turncoat Josephus were apolitical, and for that reason alone they survived, but not before. Judaism before the wars was politically charged.
Write for the reader. Jayjg (talk) 19:47, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Write for the reader by following our NPOV and NOR policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:07, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm
CHAPTER 1.
HOW CYRENIUS WAS SENT BY CAESAR TO MAKE A TAXATION OF SYRIA AND JUDEA; AND HOW COPONIUS WAS SENT TO BE PROCURATOR OF JUDEA; CONCERNING JUDAS OF GALILEE AND CONCERNING THE SECTS THAT WERE AMONG THE JEWS.
"1. ...Moreover, Cyrenius came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance, and to dispose of Archelaus's money; but the Jews, although at the beginning they took the report of a taxation heinously, yet did they leave off any further opposition to it, by the persuasion of Joazar, who was the son of Beethus, and high priest; so they, being over-pesuaded by Joazar's words, gave an account of their estates, without any dispute about it. Yet was there one Judas, a Gaulonite, (1) of a city whose name was Gamala, who, taking with him Sadduc, (2) a Pharisee, became zealous to draw them to a revolt, who both said that this taxation was no better than an introduction to slavery, and exhorted the nation to assert their liberty; as if they could procure them happiness and security for what they possessed, and an assured enjoyment of a still greater good, which was that of the honor and glory they would thereby acquire for magnanimity. They also said that God would not otherwise be assisting to them, than upon their joining with one another in such councils as might be successful, and for their own advantage; and this especially, if they would set about great exploits, and not grow weary in executing the same; so men received what they said with pleasure, and this bold attempt proceeded to a great height. All sorts of misfortunes also sprang from these men, and the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree; one violent war came upon us after another, and we lost our friends which used to alleviate our pains; there were also very great robberies and murder of our principal men. This was done in pretense indeed for the public welfare, but in reality for the hopes of gain to themselves; whence arose seditions, and from them murders of men, which sometimes fell on those of their own people, (by the madness of these men towards one another, while their desire was that none of the adverse party might be left,) and sometimes on their enemies; a famine also coming upon us, reduced us to the last degree of despair, as did also the taking and demolishing of cities; nay, the sedition at last increased so high, that the very temple of God was burnt down by their enemies' fire. Such were the consequences of this, that the customs of our fathers were altered, and such a change was made, as added a mighty weight toward bringing all to destruction, which these men occasioned by their thus conspiring together; for Judas and Sadduc, who excited a fourth philosophic sect among us, and had a great many followers therein, filled our civil government with tumults at present, and laid the foundations of our future miseries, by this system of philosophy, which we were before unacquainted withal, concerning which I will discourse a little, and this the rather because the infection which spread thence among the younger sort, who were zealous for it, brought the public to destruction.
2. The Jews had for a great while had three sects of philosophy peculiar to themselves; the sect of the Essens, and the sect of the Sadducees, and the third sort of opinions was that of those called Pharisees; of which sects, although I have already spoken in the second book of the Jewish War, yet will I a little touch upon them now."
In conclusion, Josephus says there are three sects, Essenes, Sadducees, and Pharisees, plus a fourth sect, founded by Judas of Gamala (in Galilee) and Sadduc the Pharisee in 6ce, later called Zealots.
Thus the claim that the 2nd Temple Pharisees were relatively apolitical is very misleading. No doubt Hillel was relatively apolitical, but Shammai? Obviously Sadduc the Pharisee was relatively political.
"6. But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man lord. And since this immovable resolution of theirs is well known to a great many, I shall speak no further about that matter; nor am I afraid that any thing I have said of them should be disbelieved, but rather fear, that what I have said is beneath the resolution they show when they undergo pain. And it was in Gessius Florus's time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=49&letter=Z&search=zealots
"As stated by Josephus ("B. J." iv. 3, § 9), they boastfully called themselves by the name of "Ḳanna'im" (Zealots) on account of their religious zeal. The right of the Ḳanna'im to assassinate any non-Jew who dared to enter the consecrated parts of the Temple was officially recognized in a statute inscribed upon the Temple wall and discovered by Clermont-Ganneau in 1871 (see Schürer, "Gesch." 1st ed., ii. 3, 274; comp. Josephus, "B. J." vi. 2, § 4; both Derenbourg and Grätz ["Gesch." iii. 4, 225] misunderstood the passage). "Ḳanna'im" was the name for those zealous for the honor and sanctity of the Law as well as of the sanctuary, and for this reason they at first met with the support and encouragement of the people and of the Pharisaic leaders, particularly those of the rigid school of Shammai. It was only after they had been so carried away by their fanatic zeal as to become wanton destroyers of life and property throughout the land that they were denounced as heretic Galileans (Yad. iv. 8) and "murderers" (; Soṭah ix. 9) and that their principles were repudiated by the peace-loving Pharisees."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=956&letter=B&search=shammai
"The Shammaites, on the contrary, were intensely patriotic, and would not bow to foreign rule. They advocated the interdiction of any and all intercourse with those who either were Romans or in any way contributed toward the furtherance of Roman power or influences. Dispositions so heterogeneous and antagonistic can not usually endure side by side without provoking serious misunderstandings and feuds; and it was owing solely to the Hillelites' forbearance that the parties did not come to blows, and that even friendly relations continued between them (Tosef., Yeb. i. 10; Yeb. 14b; Yer. Yeb. i. 3b), for a time at least. But the vicissitudes of the period exerted a baneful influence also in that direction. When, after the banishment of Archelaus (6 C.E.), the Roman procurator Coponius attempted to tax the Jews, and ordered a strict census to be taken for that purpose, both schools protested, and the new measure was stigmatized as so outrageous as to justify all schemes by which it might be evaded. The general abhorrence for the system of Roman taxation manifested itself in looking with distrust upon every Jew who was officially concerned in carrying it out, whether as tax-collector ("gabbai") or as customs-collector ("mokes"); these were shunned by the higher ranks of the community, and their testimony before Jewish courts had no weight (B. Ḳ. x. 1; ib. 113a; Sanh. iii. 3; ib. 25b). About this time the malcontents held the ascendency. Under the guidance of Judas the Gaulonite (or Galilean) and of Zadok, a Shammaite (Tosef., 'Eduy. ii. 2; Yeb. 15b), a political league was called into existence, whose object was to oppose by all means the practise of the Roman laws. Adopting as their organic principle the exhortation of the father of the Maccabees (I Macc. ii. 50), "Be ye zealous for the law, and give your lives for the covenant of your fathers," these patriots called themselves "Ḳanna'im," Zealots (Josephus, "B. J." iv. 3, § 9, and vii. 8, § 1; Raphall, "Post-Biblical History," ii. 364); and the Shammaites, whose principles were akin to those of the Zealots, found support among them. Their religious austerity, combined with their hatred of the heathen Romans, naturally aroused the sympathies of the fanatic league, and as the Hillelites became powerless to stem the public indignation, the Shammaites gained the upper hand in all disputes affecting their country's oppressors. Bitter feelings were consequently engendered between the schools; and it appears that even in public worship they would no longer unite under one roof (Jost, "Gesch. des Judenthums und Seiner Sekten," i. 261; Tosef., R. H., end). These feelings grew apace, until toward the last days of Jerusalem's struggle they broke out with great fury."
Aug 23, 10:22PM CST This is the page text I am getting for this article:
removed disgusting filthy paragraph RossNixon 10:12, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
but when I go to the edit view it shows the source for the normal article. How is this happening?
Sam Walker -- 65.126.161.49 03:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Seems that it is alright now, but I am still curious as to how the edit view showed the normal source. Did I really click edit right after it was reverted? Explain this:
I loaded the page, saw the vandalised text, and went to the history to revert it Comparing the two most recent edits listed in the history, they both had un-vandalised text. Assuming it had been reverted, I returned to the main page, and saw the vandalised text still there Went to talk page and added the above question Returned to main page to see normal article back
Put this way it is not clear if this is a simple or a compound article of faith
or if the existence of the Triumvirate is not disputed, and the article of faith is Peter's membership-- JimWae 19:51, 2005 August 31 (UTC)
The skeptics are raising complaints about the resurrection without allowing adequate counter info. The section is not POV.
suggestion for resolution:
I admit some fault in raising the RFC too soon. I will remove it. With that being said, here is my solution. I suggest if a paucity of info is given for "resurrection section" in the "Jesus section" then the skeptic/christian side is likely to try to give just a little more info than the other side. My suggestion is the following. Keep the "Resurrection of Jesus" main section that is solely devoted to that topic. However, make a copy of that section and place it in the Jesus section as well. Otherwise I believe the tit for tat battles will be far more likely to continue.
Signed, the gentleman who responded to the skeptical objections to the resurrection but was subsequently deleted.
to: Mark
I have looked at your userpage. If memory serves, it has a gentleman who says he userpage was vandalized. I know you want me to not be anonymous. But I have told you I wish to remain anonymous and I gave my reason. I told you I had a few "internet wikipedia stalkers". Please respect this and do not continue to ask me to be anonymous.
Signed, the gentleman who strenuously and ravenously wishes to remain largely anonymous and politely asks you to respect that. LOL
further rationale for duplicating the "resurrection of jesus" in the Jesus article.
The resurrection is the central controversy surrounding Jesus. I think it should be front and center in the Jesus article. Having the section not also incorporated in the article is counter productive. And as I said before there are no current spats in the resurrection of Jesus section because each side feels it views are being aired.
Signed, the gentleman who responded to the skeptical objections to the resurrection but was subsequently deleted and then raised the POV dispute.
Great solution?
I think I thought of a solution. Why not say something like this:
Christians see the issue the resurrection of Jesus as a very central tenet of the Christian faith. There has been much written on this matter both affirming and denying the resurrection of Christ (see the large Wikipedia article written on this subject: resurrection of Jesus).
signed the anonymous wikipedian
Keep it disputed
I almost think that the best course of action would be to keep the article as it is, with the complaint of neutrality present. There is going to be endless debate for or against anyway, and the article does deal more with the Christian vision of Christ than any other. As with any religion, nearly any aspect of it can be countered by non-believers with the notiont that it "simply did not happen." We can clutter up the articles with numerous arguments and counterarguments if we want. But if we simply keep it as-is, with a very visible warning that the article may not be agreed with by all, then most anyone can figure out that it's not hard fact. If they seek further info, then they can use the link suggested above. Because frankly, you cannot have an article about religion be completely neutral as long as humans are writing it, whether they are biased for or against. I know it goes against official Wikipedia policy, but religion is a tricky matter. Just my opinion.
to: the person who made the changes, kudos
I like the way it reads now. I think it was an equitable solution.
signed, the anonymous wikipedian
The introduction claims the gospels present Jesus as a Torah-observant Jew, but I think this is potentially misleading because he seems to be Torah observant by the Gospels' own definition, not that of Judaism. Whilst Judaism doesn't "own" the term, I think the phrase should be rephrased as it implies that it portrays him as in harmony with Torah Judaism. Any suggestions? Frikle 00:12, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
From the Sermon on the Mount:
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=254&letter=J&search=Jesus#1000
Attitude Toward the Law.
Yet in several particulars Jesus declined to follow the directions of the Law, at least as it was interpreted by the Rabbis. Where John's followers fasted, he refused to do so (ii. 18). He permitted his followers to gather corn on the Sabbath (ii. 23-28), and himself healed on that day (iii. 1-6), though the stricter rabbis allowed only the saving of life to excuse the slightest curtailment of the Sabbath rest (Shab. xxii. 6). In minor points, such as the ablution after meals (vii. 2), he showed a freedom from traditional custom which implied a break with the stricter rule of the more rigorous adherents of the Law at that time. His attitude toward the Law is perhaps best expressed in an incident which, though recorded in only one manuscript of the Gospel of Luke (vi. 4, in the Codex Bezæ), bears internal signs of genuineness. He is there reported to have met a man laboring on the Sabbath-day—--a sin deserving of death by stoning, according to the Mosaic law. Jesus said to the man: "Man, if thou knowest what thou doest, blessed art thou; but if thou knowest not, accursed art thou, and a transgressor of the Law." According to this, the Law should be obeyed unless a higher principle intervenes. While claiming not to infringe or curtail the Law, Jesus directed his followers to pay more attention to the intention and motive with which any act was done than to the deed itself. This was by no means a novelty in Jewish religious development: the Prophets and Rabbis had continuously and consistently insisted upon the inner motive with which pious deeds should be performed, as the well-known passages in Isa. i. and Micah vi. sufficiently indicate. Jesus contended that the application of this principle was practically equivalent to a revolution in spiritual life; and he laid stress upon the contrast between the old Law and the new one, especially in his Sermon on the Mount. In making these pretensions he was following a tendency which at the period of his career was especially marked in the Hasidæans and Essenes, though they associated it with views as to external purity and seclusion from the world, which differentiated them from Jesus. He does not appear, however, to have contended that the new spirit would involve any particular change in the application of the Law. He appears to have suggested that marriages should be made permanent, and that divorce should not be allowed (x. 2-12). In the Talmud it is even asserted that he threatened to change the old law of primogeniture into one by which sons and daughters should inherit alike (Shab. 116a); but there is no evidence for this utterance in Christian sources. Apart from these points, no change in the Law was indicated by Jesus; indeed, he insisted that the Jewish multitude whom he addressed should do what the Scribes and Pharisees commanded, even though they should not act as the Scribes acted (Matt. xxiii. 3). Jesus, however, does not appear to have taken into account the fact that the Halakah was at this period just becoming crystallized, and that much variation existed as to its definite form; the disputes of the Bet Hillel and Bet Shammai were occurring about the time of his maturity. It is, however, exaggerated to regard these variations from current practises as exceptionally abnormal at the beginning of the first century. The existence of a whole class of 'Am ha-Areẓ, whom Jesus may be taken to represent, shows that the rigor of the Law had not yet spread throughout the people. It is stated (iii. 7) that, owing to the opposition aroused by his action on the Sabbath, Jesus was obliged to flee into heathen parts with some of his followers, including two or three women who had attached themselves to his circle. This does not seem at all probable, and is indeed contradicted by the Gospel accounts, which describe him, even after his seeming break with the rigid requirements of the traditional law, as lodging and feasting with the Pharisees (Luke xiv.), the very class that would have objected to his behavior.
Read the Jewish Encyclopedia article: "His choice of twelve apostles had distinct reference to the tribes of Israel (iii. 13-16). He regarded dogs and swine as unholy (Matt. vii. 6). His special prayer is merely a shortened form of the third, fifth, sixth, ninth, and fifteenth of the Eighteen Benedictions (see Lord's Prayer). Jesus wore the Ẓiẓit (Matt. ix. 20); he went out of his way to pay the Temple tax of two drachmas (ib. xvii. 24-27); and his disciples offered sacrifice (ib. v. 23-24). In the Sermon on the Mount he expressly declared that he had come not to destroy the Law, but to fulfil it (ib. v. 17, quoted in Shab. 116b), and that not a jot or tittle of the Law should ever pass away (ib. v. 18; comp. Luke xvi. 17). It would even appear that later tradition regarded him as scrupulous in keeping the whole Law (comp. John viii. 46)."
Also, the JE article is also being anachronistic. It is not at all clear that the "laws" Jesus is accused of having broken were universally considered to be laws by Jews in the early 1st century CE. SR
Please sign your messagtes, anon. user, so we can keep trtack of the discussion. The phrase "Torah observant" is itself an anachronism. SR
In case anyone cares, Josiah probably either invented or rediscovered the concept of Torah-observance.
Also, Torah-observance is certainly as old (at least) as the synagogue.
Deuteronomy 6:1-2 (NRSV): "Now this is the COMMANDMENT TORAH -- the statutes and the ordinances--that the LORD YHWH your God charged me to teach you to OBSERVE in the land that you are about to cross into and occupy, so that you and your children and your children's children, may fear the LORD your God all the days of your life, and keep all his decrees and his commandments that I am commanding you, so that your days may be long."
Nehemiah 10:28-29 (NRSV): "The rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the gatekeepers, the singers, the temple servants, and all who have separated themselves from the peoples of the lands to adhere to the law of God, their wives, their sons, their daughters, all who have knowledge and understanding, join with their kin, their nobles, and enter into a curse and an oath to walk in God’s law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to OBSERVE and do all the commandments TORAH of the LORD our Lord and his ordinances and his statutes."
From Antinomianism#Antinomianism_in_the_New_Testament: Paul of Tarsus, in his Letters, mentions several times that we are saved by the unearned grace of God, not by our own good works, "lest anyone should boast." He used the term freedom in Christ, for example Galatians 2:4, and it is clear that some understood this to mean lawlessness, for example Acts of the Apostles 21:21 records James the Just explaining his situation to Paul: "They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs." (NRSV)
Cite sources No Original Research
Mark 12:28-34 (NRSV): One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, ‘Which commandment is the first of all?’ Jesus answered, ‘The first is, “ Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.” The second is this, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these.’ Then the scribe said to him, ‘You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that “he is one, and besides him there is no other”; and “to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,” and “to love one’s neighbor as oneself,” —this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.’ When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God.’ After that no one dared to ask him any question.
Matthew 22:35-40 (NRSV): and one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. ‘Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?’ He said to him, ‘”You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.’
Luke 10:25-28 (NRSV): Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. ‘Teacher,’ he said, ‘what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ He said to him, ‘What is written in the law? What do you read there?’ He answered, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.’ And he said to him, ‘You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.’
I think a few lines about this is in order. This is a version of Judaism that does not follow the Jewish rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
It is wrong to equate followers of the Talmud exclusively with Orthodox Judaism. It would probably be more precise to equate Orthodoxy with followers of the Shulhan Aruch. All mainstream modern movements of Judaism, with the exception of the Karaites, give the Talmud some importance. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:30, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the above is accurate. However, all of the modern mainstream forms of Judaism — again, excepting the Karaites — accept Rabbinic Judaism as the legitimate form of Judaism between the Hellenic and Middle Ages. Thus, even movements which reject elements of Rabbinic Judaism (e.g. Reform) still trace their lineage back through Rabbinic Judaism. Note that the leaders of the Reform, Orthodox, Conservative and Reconstructionist movements are all called "Rabbis." All accept the notion that Rabbinic teachings replaced and, until the messiah comes, continue to replace Temple sacrifice; all reject the claim that the messiah has come (claiming either that the messiah will come at the end of history, or that the Davidic monarchy will simply never be restored). These are all important defining features of contemporary Judaism that come from Rabbinic Judaism. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:37, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Source: Raymond E. Brown, Theological Studies #26 (1965) p.545-73 "Does the NT call Jesus God?"
Mk10:18, Lk18:19, Mt19:17, Mk15:34, Mt27:46, Jn20:17, Eph1:17, 2Cor1:3, 1Pt1:3, Jn17:3, 1Cor8:6, Eph4:4-6, 1Cor12:4-6, 2Cor13:14, 1Tm2:5, Jn14:28, Mk13:32, Ph2:5-10, 1Cor15:24-28 are "texts that seem to imply that the title God was not used for Jesus" and are "negative evidence which is often somewhat neglected in Catholic treatments of the subject." Also: "Jesus is never called God in the Synoptic Gospels, and a passage like Mk 10:18 would seem to preclude the possibility that Jesus used the title of himself. Even the fourth Gospel never portrays Jesus as saying specifically that he is God. The sermons which Acts attributes to the beginning of the Christian mission do not speak of Jesus as God. Thus, there is no reason to think that Jesus was called God in the earliest layers of New Testament tradition. This negative conclusion is substantiated by the fact that Paul does not use the title in any epistle written before 58." And "The slow development of the usage of the title God for Jesus requires explanation. Not only is there the factor that Jesus is not called God in the earlier strata of New Testament material, but also there are passages, cited in the first series of texts above, that by implication reserve the title God for the Father. Moreover, even in the New Testament works that speak of Jesus as God, there are also passages that seem to militate against such a usage - a study of these texts will show that this is true of the Pastorals and the Johannine literature. The most plausible explanation is that in the earliest stage of Christianity the Old Testament heritage dominated the use of the title God; hence, God was a title too narrow to be applied to Jesus. It referred strictly to the Father of Jesus, to the God whom he prayed. Gradually, (in the 50's and 60's?) in the development of Christian thought God was understood to be a broader term. It was seen that God had revealed so much of Himself in Jesus that God had to be able to include both Father and Son."
I agree with Jayjg. Certainly, the article should cover this issue (as well as the linked article on the titles of Jesus) but the introduction should be as general as possible to comply with NPOV and not immediately get into claims or possibilities that are distinctive of particular points of view. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:49, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I think it should be "a Son of God", most if not all of the issues associated with that phrase are covered at Son of God.
If the cartoon image (Cobb_jesus.gif) must be included (and I have serious doubts), must it really be the primary image? At least move the images around so that the relevant ones are at the top. It'd be like using a political cartoon as the primary image of George Bush. Ataru 09:32, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think it should be included at all. The message it sends about wikipedia as a site would not be a good one. Frankly, it cheapens the artical to an extent where someone who turned here to do research on Jesus might decide to go somewhere else. The point is, unless there is any justifications, it should not be in the artical, and it certainly should not be at the top for any reason.
I'm proposing to reorganize this article. Life and teachings
I. Introduction (see here Its not done, feel free to edit, and add input) II. Cultural Backround III. Life of Jesus according to New Testemant A. Birth(merge from Birth, death, and resurrection chronology) B. Life and teachings(move and organize) 1. overview 2. teachings and parables C. Death and Resurrection(ditto to Birth) 1. Gethsemane and trial 3. Crucifixtion and Resurrection IV. Christian Movment(probably a better title) V. Religious Views A.-H. same as now VI. Names and titles VII. Historicicty(reason for it being so late, is that you need everything else before you can determine if its historic, could also be placed in front of Religious Views)-also add a relic section underneath here. VIII. Artistic Potrayals IX. Interpretations of Jesus(I originally thought this was duplicating Religious views but have changed my mind as this is almost like a Trivia section) What do y'all think? Newbie222 23:28, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
rv - restore more neutral Ers notation removed by anon IP w/o explanation - see archives
Which are more neutral regarding existence?
Also problem with
Also note difference in meaning of "between" and "from.. to.."
-- JimWae 00:52, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm probably missing it but is the date given for the Gospels 150 AD if so it should be mentioned that many christians and non-christians hold the Gosples to be compiled by 90 AD as is in the Columbia encyclopedia article. I'm probably just missing the actual date given . http://www.bartleby.com/65/ne/NewTesta.html 12.220.47.145 02:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Current consensus of scholarship places Mark around AD 68-70, Matthew and Luke 70-90, and John 90-120. Although you ill find some schollars suggesting dates before and after those. -- Doc (?) 12:52, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the above section - it was clearly un-referenced riginal research. Besides which, I recall an artcle by similar title was afd'd some months ago and deleted for the same reason. Please watch for reinsertion. If the original author is reading ths, please make a case here before reinserting. -- Doc (?) 12:48, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Why is it so important that it is a list. It was suggested under peer review that it not be such, and I will revert and change it back to the last version. Notice the last version is different than the first one I had, I simply put all of the imformation into paragrahp form instead of merging with the other article. Newbie222 13:29, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
First, and seems most importantly: Maimonides said, "It is certain that he is not the One whom the Torah has promised": (No one can be the Messiah, if they died; and Jesus died, therefore, he could not have been the Messiah). What about the Scriptures that prophesy that the Messiah would be "cut off"? These are mentioned in Isaiah, where the (singular) "Servant of the Lord" would be extensively mistreated, rejected by His Own (people; His family, the religious leadership, and most of the nation and people of Israel), and would be "cut off". This historically happened to Jesus of Nazareth, not because He was a false prophet, but because He was and is the Jewish Messiah. Whether the gentiles would have accepted Him or not (which they didn't; the pagan Romans executed Him), Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. Also, not only did the prophet Daniel prophesy that the Messiah would be cut off, he predicted the exact year it would happen (in Daniel's famous prophecy about the "sevens/weeks of years"). Yes, I'm saying that Maimonides was wrong. The question is: "How can a dead man be the Messiah?" And the answer is: His resurrection. Some, but not all, of Israel missed it; that the Messiah would be divine/Yah Himself. Jesus rose from the dead. No human could do what Jesus did. The Messiah, being Yah incarnate, could not be held by the power of Death; but instead, Jesus looted and emptied Hades, leading the righteous dead, including the Hebrew patriarchs, etc. (those who had looked forward to the Messiah, and the resurrection, and had believed and trusted God during their life-times) into Heaven.
We have to many links under this section I'm going to remove the obvious unneccesary links, but I imagine I still will be aways from getting down to 25. So I'm asking everyone which ones they think she be removed ,so that it doesn't get reverted. Newbie222 13:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Here's my current chief to-do list for improving the Jesus article:
That's all I can think of right now, other than going over and copy-editing the last few sections and adding an image or two. - Silence 18:29, 12 October 2005 (UTC)