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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Josie_Maran
the rumor was started here by someone misquoting the Stern show: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Josie_Maran&diff=16720720&oldid=15413260 "An avowed bisexual, Josie revealed on the Howard Stern show that despite having a long-time boyfriend she also enjoys sex with women, including adult movie actress Jenna Jameson."
Josie Maran and David Blained talked about her liking porn, and hooking up with other model/actresses on Howard Stern's show, but Jenna's name was never mentioned. There's never been a quote of Josie mentioning Jenna.
Video from the Stern show here: http://josiemaran-world.com/josie-maran.com/downloads/motion/JMhs4.wmv the rest of the show can be found here: http://josiemaran-world.com/josie-maran.com/motion.htm
the site which was cited by the Jenna Jameson wiki, http://www.allamericanspeakers.com/newspeakerbio/2457/index.php , just copy and pasted from the 21 September 2005 revision of the Josie Maran wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Josie_Maran&oldid=23667115, which contains the above error. Shiyan 20:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)shiyan
just a little discrepancy, but i didnt change it cos i have no idea what the truth is. In the 'Personal Life' section it is implicit in the wording that jenna and jay are still 'happily married' at their 2million dollar ranch, but in the trivia section Jay is described as jenna's ex-husband, can someone who knows better than me fix this.
uhm, she was sexually abused in montana (or wyoming? or something) at a young age and says thats one of the reasons she got into porn. she also said if she had kids she would quit porn.
this article is, basically, super-light, proving yet again that wikipedia is controlled by corporations and their PR flacks, not honesty and certainly not 'the people' who are more than likely to get banned for 'vandalism' merely for writing the truth.
the source for this information is a @#$@#$ documentary where she says it in her own @#$@#$ words. so dont give me this verifiable source bullshit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.185.250.195 ( talk • contribs) 21:44, July 28, 2006 (UTC-6)
Per the question above, I would very much like people's input as to what we can do to get this article to Featured Article status (or damn well close to it). So if you have any suggestions, please feel free to fire away. Thank you. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud — WP:PORN BIO? 21:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I would like to get a straw poll going to see if people believe that this article is achieving the following criteria laid out at Wikipedia:What is a featured article? Therefore, after each question, please vote yes or no with supporting reasons as to why you've voted yes or no.
Joe, re. Jenna's info. You can go direct to her people, to get info and source data. Why not do it the easy way, vs. the unknown if "true or false" information (be it PR, polishing or outright gossip -- unknown if "valid"), when trolling through the many many sites -- You still never know what is true or false, just because it is "published," or "on a site."
Jenna is unique in the industry. Even if she provides info. w/ a spin, I'm sure it is easily "second sourced" by a referenced site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.39.202 ( talk • contribs)
I confess to having only a passing knowledge of who Jenna Jameson is, but I was channel surfing through the E! True Hollywood Story tonight and found the documentary, already in progress, which cites were birth year as 1964, including all the subsequent years moved back 10 years ("as a 16-year-old in 1990") from what's shown in this article. The show had interviews with her and her brother confirming these dates, And even a photo of her mother's gravestone dated 1966. I've changed the dates in this article accordingly and added the reference. It's also possible that I missed the beginning of the documentary that mentioned why her age is reported as ten years younger. Crunch 00:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Trivia includes "Has never done an anal scene on camera" by 71.233.47.227, who has no other Wikipedia edits. I reverted the edit and then had second thoughts. I found it on recent changes and I do not know enough about the subject to say whether this is vandalism or not. KeepItClean 23:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
In the biography section it states that Jenna Jameson performed in a Incest Porn movie with her father and brother, which obviously means she had sex with her own father and brother on screen!! This is obviously completely false and is an act of vandalism. I tried to edit this out and was unable to, as for some reason the incest text appears on the main page but is completely missing from the edit page!! How is this possible? Try it yourself, read the article and you will see the Incest sentence, go to "Edit Page" and the sentence is not there! Someone who knows the reason for this needs to rectify it asap.
The above was written by Cole1982
I never knew there was such a thing. Isn't this some sort of oxymoron? And don't go trying to say porn is art either.
It is amazing the amout of good references this article has. For some reason, in the reference section, the references are numbered twice. It would better if this could be changed somehow. ike9898 16:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm happy to say that this article passes every Good Article criteria with flying colors. It is absolutely, in my view, worthy of Good Article status. Bravo (or brava) to everyone who worked on it. It is extremely well-referenced, contains great prose, has illustrative pictures (all with proper raionales), and it follows a logical structure. I personally don't like the big block quotes, but that's mere opinion. My advice would be to give the page another thorough copyedit, and then I think it would be ready to be a Featured Article candidate. -- Kicking222 15:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
"Her mother was Judith Brooke Hunt Massoli, a Las Vegas showgirl who danced at the Tropicana and the Folies-Bergère." Are you sure this is the Folies-Bergère in Paris, as the wikilink implies? The NYT article that is cited does not specifically say so. In the context of Las Vegas, it is more likely the Folies-Bergère show at the Tropicana mentioned in the same sentence. -- Rosenzweig 21:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
(The following text was originally posted to AnonEMouse's talk page here, but has been copied to this page so more people will be able to see and comment on what is discussed - Tabercil)
Took a hard look at it, and I can't see anything missing. Very well done! Tabercil 19:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
First, thank you very much for your thorough look at the book and the article. I welcome a second and third pair of eyes.
Contradictions: This is possibly the most thoroughly cited article on the whole Wikipedia. And it's not written primarily directly from the book, because one expects an autobiography to be self-serving, and kind to its subject. I expected (am still expecting!) controversy during the FA nomination, and wanted to be above any objections on that score. I tried hard to cite every fact with a verifiable and reliable source, often a very respectable source ( Forbes, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, the Daily Telegraph), and for controversial ones with several sources. (I imagine that my sources leaned heavily on the book - but that's their problem, we don't guarantee truth, just verifiability.) As I mention in the "mainstream" section, she got most of her big name attention after the book came out, so they had full access to the book, and if they contradict the book, they're probably doing so for a reason. Being only human (muscine?) I may have missed citing a few, but I am sure that I did not miss many. (If I missed 5, I'll be disappointed, 10 shocked.) If you do find a few, please bring them up and let's talk about the individual ones.
Additions: The book has 600 pages or so, and is chock full of data; it was clearly written by people who wanted to concentrate on interesting information, and the fact it was a bestseller for a long time shows they managed it. In addition, a lot happened to her after the book was published. An article that covers even 10% of the interesting parts of the book, with proportional weight to later events stuff, would therefore be well over 60 pages, and would make the FA reviewers scream that we're not giving that much weight to Albert Einstein. (Yes, I am obsessed with the eventual FA nomination - that is why I am doing this.) So my take was 1) to try to keep everything that was added to the article by others besides me that I could at all cite, respecting other editors' work (one of my proudest moments was when I could find a good cite for a User:Haham hanuka item about what she does and does not do on screen - that's the main thing he puts in articles, and it usually gets deleted as uncited porncruft) and 2) to otherwise concentrate on the parts of the book covered in the reviews, and the articles which I use for my citations. They're really good sources. Besides the ones above, Salon Magazine, Rolling Stone, E!, may not be quite up to the New York Times but still are nothing to sneeze at, and have good writers, so hopefully they knew to concentrate on the important stuff. Feel free to add in a the most important facts that you think have been left out, but we just don't have room for everything. AnonEMouse (squeak) 14:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
One should keep in mind that her autobiography may not be entirely accurate in all details. Concrete dates, e.g., are rare. so we'll have to decide in each case whether the book or the other sources are more reliable. -- Rosenzweig 20:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, time to check exactly what is said by what:
As for your additions, definitely add her stage name, and also her time as a showgirl. I'd also add the breast enlargement info, but only stating it as "she got her first breast enlargement just after her 20th birthday", as she's had multiple surgeries (both additions and removals - see here). If anything I'm going to copy'n'paste this conversation over to the Jenna Jameson page so more eyeballs see it. Tabercil 02:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks again both of you.
I think her early nude modeling career is not yet adequately represented in the article, since that's how she got into porn, not from stripping, and since that is what she got her pseudonym "Jameson" for. She writes that she always wanted to be in magazines (p. 77), and through a test photo shoot makes the acquaintance of well-known photographer Suze Randall, who then proceeds to photograph her for many magazines, including the ones already mentioned in the article (pp. 91 to 105). How about distilling this into two additional sentences? Oh, and she writes that many magazines printed her pictorials under a made-up name like Daisy, Shelly or Missy, so the line "under that name, she had posed nude in such magazines as ..." may not be entirely accurate. In her Hustler centerfold (November 1994) she's credited as Jenna. -- Rosenzweig 17:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed another major contradiction: the timeline is partially wrong. The article says that "Jack left her in 1992". But just one sentence before that one can read "during her four years with her boyfriend". Those four years started in 1990, when she was sixteen. So the article contradicts itself. According to the book, her Randy West scenes were filmed in April 1994 (April 18 and 19). She writes that Randy had called her after another movie she was in came out, that was an Andrew blake softcore movie called "Fantasy Women", filmed in 1993. She writes that she did another movie "every now and then" after that (only one of them with a heterosexual sex scene), all before she got her first breast implants. After an unpleasant experience on a set, she stopped doing movies for a while, got her implants (even though she neither danced nor did movies at the time), got more into drugs and lost so much weight that she finally weighed 80 pounds (and even less later, she writes 75 pounds). At THAT time, Jack left her, she writes. A few days later, Jack's friend sends her to her father by plane to recover. She writes that her father and grandma nursed her back to health (with butter-soaked focaccia bread, no olive oil here). After six weeks of this, she relocates to LA and her friend Nikki Tyler, where she continues to eat for another month and then starts magazine work again. Several weeks after that, she receives another movie offer (Silk Stockings), and after some thinking finally talks about her wanting to do it to her father on the phone. Her father does not agree with her decision, but supports it.
That's how it is told in the book. So it seems Silk Stockings was the first movie done after her decision to actively pursue a career in porn movies, and the movie was done in 1995. -- Rosenzweig 18:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Other thoughts: It seems that in 1997 to 1999 (or even 2000) she had a major
vicodin addiction. You can read a whole drama about this on Luke Ford's page, and even though she denies it there, she admitted to it in her book. Perhaps the addiction should be mentioned somewhere in the article in a short sentence. In other places, I think the article should be shortened. That she cried after her current boyfriend Ortiz was beaten up in one of his performances is totally irrelevant for an encyclopedia article IMHO and should be thrown out altogether. And especially the article's introduction, the part before the biography section, is much too long, it really should be tightened. My suggestion would be to throw out the things that are not of paramount importance to her career, e.g. the awards for the first Club Jenna movie, her Playboy TV show, her GTA voice work, her E! guest hosting and her role in Mister Sterling. All of these things are interesting, but together they're making the introduction much too long, and the introduction should serve as a short presentation of the most important facts. Besides, all of them are repeated later in the article, so by removing them from the introduction nothing would really be lost. One would have to move some references that are cut from the introduction to the next place they are mentioned. The introductory section would then read:
I couldn't find an article mentioning her appearances in Hustler, Cheri, and High Society together (at least so far), and in her autobiography, Cheri is unfortunately misspelled as Cherry. How about one ref containing three links? I did find this, which is an overview of her magazine appearances from 1993 until 2000 or so (including outside the US), perhaps it is useful. -- Rosenzweig 19:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
PS: The German article on the Hot d'Or awards is much more comprehensive than the English one. -- Rosenzweig 20:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I followed your suggestions about Hot D'Or, clarified the Penthouse bit, removing the AskMen ref. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a good source for High Society, Cheri, and Hustler - we'll have to live without it. I found a reasonable source for implants, and broke that out into a separate paragraph - was that a good idea or a bad one? Is that all? Are we ready to nom for FA? AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The sentence about her brother tattooing her backside is still in the article. I still think that should be removed, there's only one source for this, and it's in contradiction to what she writes herself in her autobiography (see above; she writes that her brother decided to open a tattoo shop himself, even though he had never held a tattoo gun before in his life. That was in 1997 or 1998, well after she got the tattoo, so it just can't be her brother who added the text.) Finally, it's not relevant at all for the article. Dubious and not relevant = remove.
I don't really know what is expected of a Featured Article here in the English wikipedia. If I were to nominate it for Exzellente Artikel in the German wikipedia, I'd say reduce the trivia. For instance, just tell that she is dating Ortiz and that they are living together, throw out his appearance before the Marine Corps. Keep the wax figure, but remove the whispered message. Keep the autobiography's content, but throw out that the books are numbered with Roman numerals and preceded by sonnets. And so on. Ask yourself: what is really relevant for an article in an encyclopaedia? This is what I would suggest, and this is what was suggested by many others during the successful nomination of the German version of this article (see below). Once again, I don't know if that is what would be expected here in the English wikipedia as well. Once it is nominated, I'll have to keep an eye on the discussion and see what happens.
Another thing that was mentioned over the course of the nomination at de.wp was that the article doesn't tell the reader much about how Jameson is perceived outside the US. She was invited to Oxford to debate, so obviously she must be known in the UK, and there's an Australian article among the references, but that's all (or did I overlook something?) Was her book published outside the US? If so, how were the reactions (at least in the English-speaking contries, like the UK, Australia etc.)? A German translation was published, by a large publisher, and it did get reviews; Germany's biggest illustrated magazine, Stern, ran a story on her just after the US edition of her book was published, and even before the German translation hit the shelves. They called her "the uncrowned queen of hardcore" (die ungekrönte Königin des Hardcore) and "in the USA, something like the Julia Roberts of porno - a superstar" (in den USA so was wie die Julia Roberts des Pornos - ein Superstar). If you want go for Featured Article, those are things worth considering. It doesn't have to be a large paragraph, two sentences or so would be nice. (And yes, I know I'm a demanding nuisance, but once you nominate the article for FA, be prepared for more of this from others ;-) -- Rosenzweig 20:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The Stern article is mostly based on her book, everything substantial that is said in there is already in one or more other source(s). The point is that if a major magazine like this prints an article on that person, there must be an interest in her in that country. -- Rosenzweig 14:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I think there is something weird with the starmagazine site - maybe they only want US users? I tried some proxies, and sometimes got what you got. It does work for me in general. http://archive.org seems to be out temporary, when it is up, will include a link there. Here is one that works, http://proxify.com, you may need to paste the link in there, or try this link directly: [16] AnonEMouse (squeak) 16:27, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Thought you might be interested: a somewhat shortened translation of this article into German done by another user ( Achim Raschka), subsequently heavily edited by me, was just elected to be a Lesenswerter Artikel (Article worth reading) in the German wikipedia. That's the equivalent of a Good Article, but there's an actual voting procedure. You can find the discussion here. (But it's in German, of course ;-)) Three users opposed it, two mainly because they didn't think an article about a porn actress should be awarded this label, one because he felt there were too many yellow-press references (he admitted that he didn't even read the article, only looked at the references). The original translator, who nominated it, was neutral, as were five others who felt that the article's language and content still needed some work. One changed his vote from oppose to neutral because he felt that the article had improved considerably over the period of its candidacy, but he didn't have enough time to reevaluate it. 16 users supported it. -- Rosenzweig 20:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm working on cleaning up the grammar/spelling on this page. I'm not making any significant changes to content. I only hope to improve the readability. Feel free to compare versions or email me with questions. Thanks -- Legomancer 10:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Before you take this article to FAC (which must surely be long overdue), don't forget to add accessdates to all the online references. It's a pain, I know, (and that's why I'm not doing it myself ;) ) but it's regularly brought up on FAC. Other than that the article looks great. Trebor 00:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
(squeak) 22:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
On her official myspace page she is now claiming she is straight and no longer bi-sexual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.110.152.240 ( talk • contribs) 07:27, February 8, 2007
Using "Adult film" is being politically correct which is a violation of our POV policy. -- TRFA 12:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
TRFA: I just noticed the changes presumably accompanied by this comment. First, can you provide a specific link to where in the WP:POV policy it mentions political correctness? I couldn't find it. I could find a link to Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words, but that again doesn't say anything about political correctness. I admit, I can seathe reason for this, but I can also see the opposite argument (for example, so as not to overuse a single word), so I would appreciate having a link to the agreed-upon policy or guideline one way or the other. Second, in making this change, you wrote things such as "an stripper" which is grammatically incorrect, and changed the "adult film career" section to "porn career", which is incorrect - this is merely the film section, while porn would include much of her earlier work. You removed the line about Vivid being the world's largest film company without comment; that claim is backed by the Forbes reference cited twice in that paragraph, and Forbes is generally considered a pretty good source on the size of companies. In short, I'll keep some of your changes, but change others - please don't just revert them without addressing these issues.-- AnonEMouse (squeak) 14:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Restoring to original phrasing. The FAC review is right that it's poorly phrased otherwise. We're stating it as a fact, but then we're stating everythign as a fact. All we know is that a Wikipedia: Reliable source says so, in this case articles in two reputable newspapers. They may be taking it solely from the autobiography or not, we don't know, but they state it as a fact, so we can, unless some similarly reliable source questions it. No one has questioned it, to my knowledge. Note that, unlike the later rape, it does not accuse anyone in particular. The later one does, so we are careful to mark that one as "she says" or similar. -- AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Josie_Maran
the rumor was started here by someone misquoting the Stern show: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Josie_Maran&diff=16720720&oldid=15413260 "An avowed bisexual, Josie revealed on the Howard Stern show that despite having a long-time boyfriend she also enjoys sex with women, including adult movie actress Jenna Jameson."
Josie Maran and David Blained talked about her liking porn, and hooking up with other model/actresses on Howard Stern's show, but Jenna's name was never mentioned. There's never been a quote of Josie mentioning Jenna.
Video from the Stern show here: http://josiemaran-world.com/josie-maran.com/downloads/motion/JMhs4.wmv the rest of the show can be found here: http://josiemaran-world.com/josie-maran.com/motion.htm
the site which was cited by the Jenna Jameson wiki, http://www.allamericanspeakers.com/newspeakerbio/2457/index.php , just copy and pasted from the 21 September 2005 revision of the Josie Maran wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Josie_Maran&oldid=23667115, which contains the above error. Shiyan 20:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)shiyan
just a little discrepancy, but i didnt change it cos i have no idea what the truth is. In the 'Personal Life' section it is implicit in the wording that jenna and jay are still 'happily married' at their 2million dollar ranch, but in the trivia section Jay is described as jenna's ex-husband, can someone who knows better than me fix this.
uhm, she was sexually abused in montana (or wyoming? or something) at a young age and says thats one of the reasons she got into porn. she also said if she had kids she would quit porn.
this article is, basically, super-light, proving yet again that wikipedia is controlled by corporations and their PR flacks, not honesty and certainly not 'the people' who are more than likely to get banned for 'vandalism' merely for writing the truth.
the source for this information is a @#$@#$ documentary where she says it in her own @#$@#$ words. so dont give me this verifiable source bullshit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.185.250.195 ( talk • contribs) 21:44, July 28, 2006 (UTC-6)
Per the question above, I would very much like people's input as to what we can do to get this article to Featured Article status (or damn well close to it). So if you have any suggestions, please feel free to fire away. Thank you. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud — WP:PORN BIO? 21:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I would like to get a straw poll going to see if people believe that this article is achieving the following criteria laid out at Wikipedia:What is a featured article? Therefore, after each question, please vote yes or no with supporting reasons as to why you've voted yes or no.
Joe, re. Jenna's info. You can go direct to her people, to get info and source data. Why not do it the easy way, vs. the unknown if "true or false" information (be it PR, polishing or outright gossip -- unknown if "valid"), when trolling through the many many sites -- You still never know what is true or false, just because it is "published," or "on a site."
Jenna is unique in the industry. Even if she provides info. w/ a spin, I'm sure it is easily "second sourced" by a referenced site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.39.202 ( talk • contribs)
I confess to having only a passing knowledge of who Jenna Jameson is, but I was channel surfing through the E! True Hollywood Story tonight and found the documentary, already in progress, which cites were birth year as 1964, including all the subsequent years moved back 10 years ("as a 16-year-old in 1990") from what's shown in this article. The show had interviews with her and her brother confirming these dates, And even a photo of her mother's gravestone dated 1966. I've changed the dates in this article accordingly and added the reference. It's also possible that I missed the beginning of the documentary that mentioned why her age is reported as ten years younger. Crunch 00:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Trivia includes "Has never done an anal scene on camera" by 71.233.47.227, who has no other Wikipedia edits. I reverted the edit and then had second thoughts. I found it on recent changes and I do not know enough about the subject to say whether this is vandalism or not. KeepItClean 23:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
In the biography section it states that Jenna Jameson performed in a Incest Porn movie with her father and brother, which obviously means she had sex with her own father and brother on screen!! This is obviously completely false and is an act of vandalism. I tried to edit this out and was unable to, as for some reason the incest text appears on the main page but is completely missing from the edit page!! How is this possible? Try it yourself, read the article and you will see the Incest sentence, go to "Edit Page" and the sentence is not there! Someone who knows the reason for this needs to rectify it asap.
The above was written by Cole1982
I never knew there was such a thing. Isn't this some sort of oxymoron? And don't go trying to say porn is art either.
It is amazing the amout of good references this article has. For some reason, in the reference section, the references are numbered twice. It would better if this could be changed somehow. ike9898 16:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm happy to say that this article passes every Good Article criteria with flying colors. It is absolutely, in my view, worthy of Good Article status. Bravo (or brava) to everyone who worked on it. It is extremely well-referenced, contains great prose, has illustrative pictures (all with proper raionales), and it follows a logical structure. I personally don't like the big block quotes, but that's mere opinion. My advice would be to give the page another thorough copyedit, and then I think it would be ready to be a Featured Article candidate. -- Kicking222 15:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
"Her mother was Judith Brooke Hunt Massoli, a Las Vegas showgirl who danced at the Tropicana and the Folies-Bergère." Are you sure this is the Folies-Bergère in Paris, as the wikilink implies? The NYT article that is cited does not specifically say so. In the context of Las Vegas, it is more likely the Folies-Bergère show at the Tropicana mentioned in the same sentence. -- Rosenzweig 21:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
(The following text was originally posted to AnonEMouse's talk page here, but has been copied to this page so more people will be able to see and comment on what is discussed - Tabercil)
Took a hard look at it, and I can't see anything missing. Very well done! Tabercil 19:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
First, thank you very much for your thorough look at the book and the article. I welcome a second and third pair of eyes.
Contradictions: This is possibly the most thoroughly cited article on the whole Wikipedia. And it's not written primarily directly from the book, because one expects an autobiography to be self-serving, and kind to its subject. I expected (am still expecting!) controversy during the FA nomination, and wanted to be above any objections on that score. I tried hard to cite every fact with a verifiable and reliable source, often a very respectable source ( Forbes, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, the Daily Telegraph), and for controversial ones with several sources. (I imagine that my sources leaned heavily on the book - but that's their problem, we don't guarantee truth, just verifiability.) As I mention in the "mainstream" section, she got most of her big name attention after the book came out, so they had full access to the book, and if they contradict the book, they're probably doing so for a reason. Being only human (muscine?) I may have missed citing a few, but I am sure that I did not miss many. (If I missed 5, I'll be disappointed, 10 shocked.) If you do find a few, please bring them up and let's talk about the individual ones.
Additions: The book has 600 pages or so, and is chock full of data; it was clearly written by people who wanted to concentrate on interesting information, and the fact it was a bestseller for a long time shows they managed it. In addition, a lot happened to her after the book was published. An article that covers even 10% of the interesting parts of the book, with proportional weight to later events stuff, would therefore be well over 60 pages, and would make the FA reviewers scream that we're not giving that much weight to Albert Einstein. (Yes, I am obsessed with the eventual FA nomination - that is why I am doing this.) So my take was 1) to try to keep everything that was added to the article by others besides me that I could at all cite, respecting other editors' work (one of my proudest moments was when I could find a good cite for a User:Haham hanuka item about what she does and does not do on screen - that's the main thing he puts in articles, and it usually gets deleted as uncited porncruft) and 2) to otherwise concentrate on the parts of the book covered in the reviews, and the articles which I use for my citations. They're really good sources. Besides the ones above, Salon Magazine, Rolling Stone, E!, may not be quite up to the New York Times but still are nothing to sneeze at, and have good writers, so hopefully they knew to concentrate on the important stuff. Feel free to add in a the most important facts that you think have been left out, but we just don't have room for everything. AnonEMouse (squeak) 14:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
One should keep in mind that her autobiography may not be entirely accurate in all details. Concrete dates, e.g., are rare. so we'll have to decide in each case whether the book or the other sources are more reliable. -- Rosenzweig 20:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, time to check exactly what is said by what:
As for your additions, definitely add her stage name, and also her time as a showgirl. I'd also add the breast enlargement info, but only stating it as "she got her first breast enlargement just after her 20th birthday", as she's had multiple surgeries (both additions and removals - see here). If anything I'm going to copy'n'paste this conversation over to the Jenna Jameson page so more eyeballs see it. Tabercil 02:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks again both of you.
I think her early nude modeling career is not yet adequately represented in the article, since that's how she got into porn, not from stripping, and since that is what she got her pseudonym "Jameson" for. She writes that she always wanted to be in magazines (p. 77), and through a test photo shoot makes the acquaintance of well-known photographer Suze Randall, who then proceeds to photograph her for many magazines, including the ones already mentioned in the article (pp. 91 to 105). How about distilling this into two additional sentences? Oh, and she writes that many magazines printed her pictorials under a made-up name like Daisy, Shelly or Missy, so the line "under that name, she had posed nude in such magazines as ..." may not be entirely accurate. In her Hustler centerfold (November 1994) she's credited as Jenna. -- Rosenzweig 17:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed another major contradiction: the timeline is partially wrong. The article says that "Jack left her in 1992". But just one sentence before that one can read "during her four years with her boyfriend". Those four years started in 1990, when she was sixteen. So the article contradicts itself. According to the book, her Randy West scenes were filmed in April 1994 (April 18 and 19). She writes that Randy had called her after another movie she was in came out, that was an Andrew blake softcore movie called "Fantasy Women", filmed in 1993. She writes that she did another movie "every now and then" after that (only one of them with a heterosexual sex scene), all before she got her first breast implants. After an unpleasant experience on a set, she stopped doing movies for a while, got her implants (even though she neither danced nor did movies at the time), got more into drugs and lost so much weight that she finally weighed 80 pounds (and even less later, she writes 75 pounds). At THAT time, Jack left her, she writes. A few days later, Jack's friend sends her to her father by plane to recover. She writes that her father and grandma nursed her back to health (with butter-soaked focaccia bread, no olive oil here). After six weeks of this, she relocates to LA and her friend Nikki Tyler, where she continues to eat for another month and then starts magazine work again. Several weeks after that, she receives another movie offer (Silk Stockings), and after some thinking finally talks about her wanting to do it to her father on the phone. Her father does not agree with her decision, but supports it.
That's how it is told in the book. So it seems Silk Stockings was the first movie done after her decision to actively pursue a career in porn movies, and the movie was done in 1995. -- Rosenzweig 18:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Other thoughts: It seems that in 1997 to 1999 (or even 2000) she had a major
vicodin addiction. You can read a whole drama about this on Luke Ford's page, and even though she denies it there, she admitted to it in her book. Perhaps the addiction should be mentioned somewhere in the article in a short sentence. In other places, I think the article should be shortened. That she cried after her current boyfriend Ortiz was beaten up in one of his performances is totally irrelevant for an encyclopedia article IMHO and should be thrown out altogether. And especially the article's introduction, the part before the biography section, is much too long, it really should be tightened. My suggestion would be to throw out the things that are not of paramount importance to her career, e.g. the awards for the first Club Jenna movie, her Playboy TV show, her GTA voice work, her E! guest hosting and her role in Mister Sterling. All of these things are interesting, but together they're making the introduction much too long, and the introduction should serve as a short presentation of the most important facts. Besides, all of them are repeated later in the article, so by removing them from the introduction nothing would really be lost. One would have to move some references that are cut from the introduction to the next place they are mentioned. The introductory section would then read:
I couldn't find an article mentioning her appearances in Hustler, Cheri, and High Society together (at least so far), and in her autobiography, Cheri is unfortunately misspelled as Cherry. How about one ref containing three links? I did find this, which is an overview of her magazine appearances from 1993 until 2000 or so (including outside the US), perhaps it is useful. -- Rosenzweig 19:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
PS: The German article on the Hot d'Or awards is much more comprehensive than the English one. -- Rosenzweig 20:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I followed your suggestions about Hot D'Or, clarified the Penthouse bit, removing the AskMen ref. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a good source for High Society, Cheri, and Hustler - we'll have to live without it. I found a reasonable source for implants, and broke that out into a separate paragraph - was that a good idea or a bad one? Is that all? Are we ready to nom for FA? AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The sentence about her brother tattooing her backside is still in the article. I still think that should be removed, there's only one source for this, and it's in contradiction to what she writes herself in her autobiography (see above; she writes that her brother decided to open a tattoo shop himself, even though he had never held a tattoo gun before in his life. That was in 1997 or 1998, well after she got the tattoo, so it just can't be her brother who added the text.) Finally, it's not relevant at all for the article. Dubious and not relevant = remove.
I don't really know what is expected of a Featured Article here in the English wikipedia. If I were to nominate it for Exzellente Artikel in the German wikipedia, I'd say reduce the trivia. For instance, just tell that she is dating Ortiz and that they are living together, throw out his appearance before the Marine Corps. Keep the wax figure, but remove the whispered message. Keep the autobiography's content, but throw out that the books are numbered with Roman numerals and preceded by sonnets. And so on. Ask yourself: what is really relevant for an article in an encyclopaedia? This is what I would suggest, and this is what was suggested by many others during the successful nomination of the German version of this article (see below). Once again, I don't know if that is what would be expected here in the English wikipedia as well. Once it is nominated, I'll have to keep an eye on the discussion and see what happens.
Another thing that was mentioned over the course of the nomination at de.wp was that the article doesn't tell the reader much about how Jameson is perceived outside the US. She was invited to Oxford to debate, so obviously she must be known in the UK, and there's an Australian article among the references, but that's all (or did I overlook something?) Was her book published outside the US? If so, how were the reactions (at least in the English-speaking contries, like the UK, Australia etc.)? A German translation was published, by a large publisher, and it did get reviews; Germany's biggest illustrated magazine, Stern, ran a story on her just after the US edition of her book was published, and even before the German translation hit the shelves. They called her "the uncrowned queen of hardcore" (die ungekrönte Königin des Hardcore) and "in the USA, something like the Julia Roberts of porno - a superstar" (in den USA so was wie die Julia Roberts des Pornos - ein Superstar). If you want go for Featured Article, those are things worth considering. It doesn't have to be a large paragraph, two sentences or so would be nice. (And yes, I know I'm a demanding nuisance, but once you nominate the article for FA, be prepared for more of this from others ;-) -- Rosenzweig 20:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The Stern article is mostly based on her book, everything substantial that is said in there is already in one or more other source(s). The point is that if a major magazine like this prints an article on that person, there must be an interest in her in that country. -- Rosenzweig 14:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I think there is something weird with the starmagazine site - maybe they only want US users? I tried some proxies, and sometimes got what you got. It does work for me in general. http://archive.org seems to be out temporary, when it is up, will include a link there. Here is one that works, http://proxify.com, you may need to paste the link in there, or try this link directly: [16] AnonEMouse (squeak) 16:27, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Thought you might be interested: a somewhat shortened translation of this article into German done by another user ( Achim Raschka), subsequently heavily edited by me, was just elected to be a Lesenswerter Artikel (Article worth reading) in the German wikipedia. That's the equivalent of a Good Article, but there's an actual voting procedure. You can find the discussion here. (But it's in German, of course ;-)) Three users opposed it, two mainly because they didn't think an article about a porn actress should be awarded this label, one because he felt there were too many yellow-press references (he admitted that he didn't even read the article, only looked at the references). The original translator, who nominated it, was neutral, as were five others who felt that the article's language and content still needed some work. One changed his vote from oppose to neutral because he felt that the article had improved considerably over the period of its candidacy, but he didn't have enough time to reevaluate it. 16 users supported it. -- Rosenzweig 20:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm working on cleaning up the grammar/spelling on this page. I'm not making any significant changes to content. I only hope to improve the readability. Feel free to compare versions or email me with questions. Thanks -- Legomancer 10:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Before you take this article to FAC (which must surely be long overdue), don't forget to add accessdates to all the online references. It's a pain, I know, (and that's why I'm not doing it myself ;) ) but it's regularly brought up on FAC. Other than that the article looks great. Trebor 00:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
(squeak) 22:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
On her official myspace page she is now claiming she is straight and no longer bi-sexual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.110.152.240 ( talk • contribs) 07:27, February 8, 2007
Using "Adult film" is being politically correct which is a violation of our POV policy. -- TRFA 12:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
TRFA: I just noticed the changes presumably accompanied by this comment. First, can you provide a specific link to where in the WP:POV policy it mentions political correctness? I couldn't find it. I could find a link to Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words, but that again doesn't say anything about political correctness. I admit, I can seathe reason for this, but I can also see the opposite argument (for example, so as not to overuse a single word), so I would appreciate having a link to the agreed-upon policy or guideline one way or the other. Second, in making this change, you wrote things such as "an stripper" which is grammatically incorrect, and changed the "adult film career" section to "porn career", which is incorrect - this is merely the film section, while porn would include much of her earlier work. You removed the line about Vivid being the world's largest film company without comment; that claim is backed by the Forbes reference cited twice in that paragraph, and Forbes is generally considered a pretty good source on the size of companies. In short, I'll keep some of your changes, but change others - please don't just revert them without addressing these issues.-- AnonEMouse (squeak) 14:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Restoring to original phrasing. The FAC review is right that it's poorly phrased otherwise. We're stating it as a fact, but then we're stating everythign as a fact. All we know is that a Wikipedia: Reliable source says so, in this case articles in two reputable newspapers. They may be taking it solely from the autobiography or not, we don't know, but they state it as a fact, so we can, unless some similarly reliable source questions it. No one has questioned it, to my knowledge. Note that, unlike the later rape, it does not accuse anyone in particular. The later one does, so we are careful to mark that one as "she says" or similar. -- AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
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