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Jelly Roll (singer) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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 | On 16 May 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Jelly Roll (musician). The result of the discussion was Moved to Jelly Roll (singer). |
| On 12 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Jelly Roll. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... he has collaboroated with many big artists and has released albums that have been on the billboard charts. -- Kcwalker93 ( talk) 23:47, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... Haystak & Jellyroll's album Strictly Business made it to 16 on the Billboard Heatseekers chart http://www.billboard.com/artist/303355/haystak/chart?f=324, and 67 on the Billboard Top R&B/Hip-Hop chart. http://www.billboard.com/artist/303355/haystak/chart?f=333 -- Kcwalker93 ( talk) 23:58, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
So, is he billed as JellyRoll or Jelly Roll ? Both versions are used in this article, but there needs to be a consistent approach to naming (as per WP:NCP). Thanks,
Derek R Bullamore ( talk) 14:18, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- There are both variations of billing on the covers of his albums and in credits. Both options are equally true and have the right to use. However, West Coast hip hop producer and singer
David Drew also uses both versions [of JellyRoll] as his stage name (see
Category:Albums produced by JellyRoll). In order to avoid confusion, I propose to rename the article (move page) to
JellyRoll (rapper) (or
Jelly Roll (rapper)).
Dat Gee (
talk) from
Wikipedia (since September 2016)
07:07, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- Most media citations and social media show preference for Jelly Roll rather than JellyRoll. Like his YouTube channel. [1] And his Facebook channel. [2] Many of his albums clearly say Jelly Roll as two words. Which format should we adopt? werldwayd ( talk) 07:53, 22 February 2021 (UTC) werldwayd ( talk) 03:40, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Jason DeFord is billed as Jelly Roll. ISoldier92 ( talk) 03:48, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Why is there not more information about Jelly Roll? Where he grew up? How many siblings or does he have siblings? How did he get his start? Has he not wanted to be interviewed? I mean this is Wikipedia. You haven't made it unless you've been interviewed and properly informed on Wikipedia. Right?! 71.206.81.142 ( talk) 02:51, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Moved to Jelly Roll (singer). There is a broad consensus that this article should be moved somewhere, but no consensus on how to best avoid confusion with Jelly Roll Morton. Jelly Roll (singer) was the second choice of multiple people who otherwise sponsored wildly different suggestions, and also most succinctly distinguishes the subject from Morton. Thus "(singer)" will be provisionally used. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 18:41, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Jelly Roll (rapper) → Jelly Roll (musician) – He records in genres other than rap/hip-hop. The AllMusic bio also lists country, one of his songs is #1 on the Mainstream Rock charts, and this source describes "Son of a Sinner" as a country song. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 15:28, 16 May 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 05:35, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- Support. I've just listened to Son of a Sinner and it is unquestionably not rap. The current (rapper) tag is inaccurate. 162 etc. ( talk) 16:41, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose as proposed; the suggested title is ambiguous.
Jelly Roll Morton is also often referred to simply as "Jelly Roll" and is another historically important musician (jazz/ragtime) with a substantial number of page views. I don't often refer to long-term significance, but that seems to be a consideration here. (
pageview data)
Dekimasu
よ!
07:09, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- If only there were a last name, like say, "Morton", to make the difference between the two clearer... Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)
15:03, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Sarcasm aside, exactly; there is no problem with the title of the Jelly Roll Morton article, because it is naturally disambiguated. That does not make the proposed title here any less ambiguous. Likewise we do not move MJ (South Korean singer) to MJ (singer) even though what it conflicts with ( Michael Jackson) is not at the title "MJ". Dekimasu よ! 15:43, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- If only there were a last name, like say, "Morton", to make the difference between the two clearer... Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)
15:03, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't really see it. We're not going to move
Cher because
Cher Lloyd exists; same idea here. Can you show evidence in reliable sources that Jelly Roll Morton is known mononymously as Jelly Roll?
162 etc. (
talk)
20:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- He's called "Jelly Roll" throughout the running text of his short biography by Langston Hughes, which starts off with "Ferdinand Joseph Morton, later called Jelly Roll" (much like a Wikipedia article would). He's also called either "Jelly Roll" or "Jelly" throughout the running text of the most famous biography of his life, Alan Lomax's Mister Jelly Roll. He's "Jelly Roll" in Jazz Transatlantic. Going to articles, I only looked at the first page of results, but he's "Jelly Roll" everywhere but the title in "The King of the Underworld: The Invention of Jelly Roll Morton" (Missouri Review, 2012), and I'm sure there are a lot of other academic articles along those lines, considering his prominence. By the way, I have no problem with Jelly Roll (singer) for this article. Dekimasu よ! 06:48, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
We're not going to move Cher because Cher Lloyd exists; same idea here.
No we're not. Because Cher is much, much more notable than Cher Lloyd. Surely you don't think this bloke is more notable than Jelly Roll Morton? -- Necrothesp ( talk) 13:35, 31 May 2022 (UTC)- I don't, of course; my comment was based more around the idea that the rapper turned singer is known mononymously, whereas Jelly Roll Morton is usually known by his full name. I suppose that
Jelly Roll (musician, born 1986) is an option, certainly better than the current (rapper).
162 etc. (
talk)
16:42, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- That would certainly be acceptable. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 09:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't, of course; my comment was based more around the idea that the rapper turned singer is known mononymously, whereas Jelly Roll Morton is usually known by his full name. I suppose that
Jelly Roll (musician, born 1986) is an option, certainly better than the current (rapper).
162 etc. (
talk)
16:42, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't really see it. We're not going to move
Cher because
Cher Lloyd exists; same idea here. Can you show evidence in reliable sources that Jelly Roll Morton is known mononymously as Jelly Roll?
162 etc. (
talk)
20:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Can we agree that the term Vocalist should be a better description of Jason DeFord Aka Jelly Roll? ISoldier92 ( talk) 03:46, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- "Vocalist" is not typically used, per WP:SINGERDAB. 162 etc. ( talk) 16:37, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
I don't know if this is anything, but I asked Jelly Roll about this today (not a joke -- starts at 1:56). He prefers "Singer-Songwriter", which isn't typically used per WP:SINGERDAB, but maybe lends credence to "Musician": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg-KVwSzzic&t=117 Captiveofthesun ( talk) 20:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Support
Jelly Roll (singer-songwriter). While this disambiguator is not so common, it's occasionally used, as in
Sally Taylor (singer-songwriter),
Jim Sullivan (singer-songwriter),
Richard Swift (singer-songwriter) and
Naomi (singer-songwriter). In all those cases, dab pages
Sally Taylor (disambiguation),
Jim Sullivan (disambiguation),
Richard Swift (disambiguation) and
Naomi (disambiguation) also contain at least one namesake that could be plausibly called "musician". I can also support
Jelly Roll (singer) as a second choice.
No such user (
talk)
12:09, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'll note that I've bold moved the Sally Taylor and Naomi articles. As for Sullivan and Swift, I agree that "musician" could be seen as ambiguous. 162 etc. ( talk) 23:53, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support per nom.-- Ortizesp ( talk) 19:24, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Support – The "(musician)" label seems to most accurately describe his output. In my opinion, a hatnote should most likely be sufficient to disambiguate from Jelly Roll Morton. ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 03:27, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. Jelly Roll Morton is a much better known musician. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 13:32, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Support. As for the comparison to Jelly Roll Morton, compare page views here: https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-20&pages=Jelly_Roll_(rapper)%7CJelly_Roll_Morton
- Jelly Roll's page receives much more page views than the article for Morton, signifying that on average, if one is looking for a page on a musician named "Jelly Roll", they are likely seeking this page as it is.
Yeehaw45 (
talk)
21:38, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- We usually do not depend on what has been popular over a very short time period in order to determine primary topics. I gave a
more complete picture in my comment above, which shows that views for this artist have exceeded those of Jelly Roll Morton for less than a year. Long-term significance is one of the criteria for determining a
primary topic, and by that criterion this artist is not the primary topic.
Dekimasu
よ!
13:40, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- There's also the fact that Jelly Roll Morton has "Morton" in his name. Hat notes should be sufficient. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 18:04, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- This was answered above. The location of that article does not change the fact that the title requested here is ambiguous.
Jelly Roll (musician) is a
partially disambiguated page name and under our guidelines, "In individual cases consensus may determine that a parenthetically disambiguated title that is still ambiguous has a primary topic, but the threshold for identifying a primary topic for such titles is higher than for a title without parenthetical disambiguation" (
WP:INCOMPDAB,
WP:PDAB). For articles on people, all previous moves listed at
WP:PDAB where the ambiguity of the proposed title was mentioned in the move discussion had page view ratios of at least 50:1, and that is without considering the historical significance of the competing figure in this case. The issue can be solved by using
Jelly Roll (singer) or
Jelly Roll (musician, born 1986), both of which are unambiguous.
Dekimasu
よ!
01:35, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- As the nominator, I support "singer". Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 18:27, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- This was answered above. The location of that article does not change the fact that the title requested here is ambiguous.
Jelly Roll (musician) is a
partially disambiguated page name and under our guidelines, "In individual cases consensus may determine that a parenthetically disambiguated title that is still ambiguous has a primary topic, but the threshold for identifying a primary topic for such titles is higher than for a title without parenthetical disambiguation" (
WP:INCOMPDAB,
WP:PDAB). For articles on people, all previous moves listed at
WP:PDAB where the ambiguity of the proposed title was mentioned in the move discussion had page view ratios of at least 50:1, and that is without considering the historical significance of the competing figure in this case. The issue can be solved by using
Jelly Roll (singer) or
Jelly Roll (musician, born 1986), both of which are unambiguous.
Dekimasu
よ!
01:35, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- We usually do not depend on what has been popular over a very short time period in order to determine primary topics. I gave a
more complete picture in my comment above, which shows that views for this artist have exceeded those of Jelly Roll Morton for less than a year. Long-term significance is one of the criteria for determining a
primary topic, and by that criterion this artist is not the primary topic.
Dekimasu
よ!
13:40, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Support. The hat note should be sufficient to disambiguate him from Jelly Roll Morton. The helper5667 ( talk) 04:09, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
This article needs a serious update. 68.255.61.188 ( talk) 02:45, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Awards are for Lainey Wilson not Jelly Roll. 2605:A601:A9E6:FF00:FDD0:C197:8E1D:6C2C ( talk) 20:25, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) -- Maddy from Celeste ( WAVEDASH) 18:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Jelly Roll (singer) → Jelly Roll – Though this article recently experienced a rather sharp increase in page views, even before then (specifically 9 November 2023 when the subject of this article won the CMT award), the article had an average more than 10x more page views than the subjects with a capital "R" combined. With that being said, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:DIFFCAPS, I believe it is time to give this move request some consideration. Steel1943 ( talk) 19:10, 12 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. - 🔥 𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 03:08, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Nothing has changed since the RM above.
Jelly Roll Morton is still much more notable and
Jelly roll still exists. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:05, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- ...And Jelly roll is a disambiguation page, meaning there is no primary topic for this lower case form. I'm failing to see why that is relevant here. Steel1943 ( talk) 22:28, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per
WP:PT2 per Necrothesp.
Hameltion (
talk |
contribs)
15:18, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
-
WP:PT2 doesn't apply to what
Necrothesp stated since they are comparing three subjects without considering
WP:DIFFCAPS, so it is unclear why you cited it.
Steel1943 (
talk)
23:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Jelly Roll Morton is still much more notable
: As Dekimasu argues above, Jelly Roll Morton is likely primary by long-term significance for the capitalized version. Hameltion ( talk | contribs) 01:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)- Jelly Roll Morton has a last name though. The names are not an exact match. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 20:05, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
-
WP:PT2 doesn't apply to what
Necrothesp stated since they are comparing three subjects without considering
WP:DIFFCAPS, so it is unclear why you cited it.
Steel1943 (
talk)
23:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:DIFFCAPS. This is the only subject with the exact name Jelly Roll, capital J, Capital R. Jelly Roll Morton is not an exact name-match and a hatnote can suffice there. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 17:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support This is one of those times I do not wish to agree but must support. Morton is an important Jelly Roll, but self–disambiguates with his last name. The only current capital J-R combo is this singer. Hatnotes would be a requirement though, to Morton and to Jelly roll.-- ☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 23:30, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per the previous discussion, including how I noted that major reliable sources refer to the other Jelly Roll as Jelly Roll. (Again, that does not mean there is any problem with the current natural disambiguation for
Jelly Roll Morton, but it indicates that there are other significant claims to the search term/title/redirect "Jelly Roll".)
Dekimasu
よ!
05:47, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- If only Jelly Roll Morton had a last name, like say, I dunno, "Morton"... Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)
14:55, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Sarcasm aside (again), I already replied to this comment 1.5 years ago to explain that reliable sources often refer to him as Jelly Roll. Dekimasu よ! 10:28, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- If only Jelly Roll Morton had a last name, like say, I dunno, "Morton"... Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)
14:55, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:PT2 as already noted by Hameltion, and per Dekimasu's comments above. ╠╣uw [ talk 16:22, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose This could be distinguished from cases of WP:PTM because it's certainly possible people will refer to "Jelly Roll Morton" as just "Jelly Roll", making it a potential primary topic even if the article is not titled that. It doesn't particularly aid in navigation either. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 16:08, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Some anecdotal WP:OR: I have never heard Morton referenced as anything other than full three–word name or subsequently as just Morton, almost as if radio hosts/presenters followed the
WP:SURNAME policy on their broadcasts.--
☾Loriendrew☽
☏(ring-ring)
00:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
- Agree. If any of the opposers can prove that Jelly Roll Morton is ever referred to without his last name, that'd be great. So far it's all anecdotal. Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)
20:05, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
- Well,
ever
is an easy bar to clear. He's often any of "Jelly", "Jelly Roll" and "Morton" throughout Alan Lomax's biography Mister Jelly Roll. Hameltion ( talk | contribs) 22:12, 25 November 2023 (UTC)- I had already noted this source in reply to TenPoundHammer in the last discussion, when I presented four reliable sources (not anecdotes) showing how the subject of this article is referred to as "Jelly Roll" in running text and often in titles. However, I still received exactly the same "if only Jelly Roll Morton had a last name" this time around, so I'm not sure what the bar is. Dekimasu よ! 10:28, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- Well,
- Agree. If any of the opposers can prove that Jelly Roll Morton is ever referred to without his last name, that'd be great. So far it's all anecdotal. Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)
20:05, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
- Some anecdotal WP:OR: I have never heard Morton referenced as anything other than full three–word name or subsequently as just Morton, almost as if radio hosts/presenters followed the
WP:SURNAME policy on their broadcasts.--
☾Loriendrew☽
☏(ring-ring)
00:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support - As per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, I fail to see how Jelly Roll Morton is more notable when people search Jelly Roll online. Hansen Sebastian Talk 08:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Not sure if someone vandalized the page or not, but almost all of the award nominations shown for Jelly Roll are actually Lainey Wilson's. The only ones actually belonging to Jelly Roll are the last half-dozen or so. Others are for songs like "Things a Man Oughta Know" and "Wait in the Truck," which Jelly Roll had nothing to do with. This needs to be cleaned up. 2601:18C:4080:3E90:4426:BF9C:DDA0:2B05 ( talk) 08:22, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Done That was horrendous. Believe it was a good faith attempt by some who copied Wilson's table over, added things but did not remove others. Thank you for pointing it out.--
☾Loriendrew☽
☏(ring-ring)
00:13, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
I'm trying to understand why the fact that hes been convicted of several felonies and sent to prison multiple times as an adult keeps getting deleted. I'm using the Davidson(Nashville) county clerk as the source. his name date of birth location all matches. I'm leaving out his misdemeanor charges only including what hes been CONVICTED of as an adult. I'm not including any of his convictions as a minor or any arrests that didn't result in a conviction. BurnCDXX ( talk) 01:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Read WP:OR and Wikipedia:BLPPRIMARY Llacb47 ( talk) 22:10, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Biography articles of living people
- C-Class biography articles
- C-Class biography (musicians) articles
- Low-importance biography (musicians) articles
- Musicians work group articles
- WikiProject Biography articles
- C-Class Hip hop articles
- Low-importance Hip hop articles
- WikiProject Hip hop articles
- C-Class Country music articles
- Low-importance Country music articles
- WikiProject Country music articles
- C-Class Rock music articles
- Low-importance Rock music articles
- WikiProject Rock music articles
| This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jelly Roll (singer) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
| Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
|
| This article was previously nominated for deletion. The result of the discussion was Keep. |
| This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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| On 16 May 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Jelly Roll (musician). The result of the discussion was Moved to Jelly Roll (singer). |
| On 12 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Jelly Roll. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... he has collaboroated with many big artists and has released albums that have been on the billboard charts. -- Kcwalker93 ( talk) 23:47, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... Haystak & Jellyroll's album Strictly Business made it to 16 on the Billboard Heatseekers chart http://www.billboard.com/artist/303355/haystak/chart?f=324, and 67 on the Billboard Top R&B/Hip-Hop chart. http://www.billboard.com/artist/303355/haystak/chart?f=333 -- Kcwalker93 ( talk) 23:58, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
So, is he billed as JellyRoll or Jelly Roll ? Both versions are used in this article, but there needs to be a consistent approach to naming (as per WP:NCP). Thanks,
Derek R Bullamore ( talk) 14:18, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- There are both variations of billing on the covers of his albums and in credits. Both options are equally true and have the right to use. However, West Coast hip hop producer and singer
David Drew also uses both versions [of JellyRoll] as his stage name (see
Category:Albums produced by JellyRoll). In order to avoid confusion, I propose to rename the article (move page) to
JellyRoll (rapper) (or
Jelly Roll (rapper)).
Dat Gee (
talk) from
Wikipedia (since September 2016)
07:07, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- Most media citations and social media show preference for Jelly Roll rather than JellyRoll. Like his YouTube channel. [1] And his Facebook channel. [2] Many of his albums clearly say Jelly Roll as two words. Which format should we adopt? werldwayd ( talk) 07:53, 22 February 2021 (UTC) werldwayd ( talk) 03:40, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Jason DeFord is billed as Jelly Roll. ISoldier92 ( talk) 03:48, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Why is there not more information about Jelly Roll? Where he grew up? How many siblings or does he have siblings? How did he get his start? Has he not wanted to be interviewed? I mean this is Wikipedia. You haven't made it unless you've been interviewed and properly informed on Wikipedia. Right?! 71.206.81.142 ( talk) 02:51, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Moved to Jelly Roll (singer). There is a broad consensus that this article should be moved somewhere, but no consensus on how to best avoid confusion with Jelly Roll Morton. Jelly Roll (singer) was the second choice of multiple people who otherwise sponsored wildly different suggestions, and also most succinctly distinguishes the subject from Morton. Thus "(singer)" will be provisionally used. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 18:41, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Jelly Roll (rapper) → Jelly Roll (musician) – He records in genres other than rap/hip-hop. The AllMusic bio also lists country, one of his songs is #1 on the Mainstream Rock charts, and this source describes "Son of a Sinner" as a country song. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 15:28, 16 May 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 05:35, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- Support. I've just listened to Son of a Sinner and it is unquestionably not rap. The current (rapper) tag is inaccurate. 162 etc. ( talk) 16:41, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose as proposed; the suggested title is ambiguous.
Jelly Roll Morton is also often referred to simply as "Jelly Roll" and is another historically important musician (jazz/ragtime) with a substantial number of page views. I don't often refer to long-term significance, but that seems to be a consideration here. (
pageview data)
Dekimasu
よ!
07:09, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- If only there were a last name, like say, "Morton", to make the difference between the two clearer... Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)
15:03, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Sarcasm aside, exactly; there is no problem with the title of the Jelly Roll Morton article, because it is naturally disambiguated. That does not make the proposed title here any less ambiguous. Likewise we do not move MJ (South Korean singer) to MJ (singer) even though what it conflicts with ( Michael Jackson) is not at the title "MJ". Dekimasu よ! 15:43, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- If only there were a last name, like say, "Morton", to make the difference between the two clearer... Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)
15:03, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't really see it. We're not going to move
Cher because
Cher Lloyd exists; same idea here. Can you show evidence in reliable sources that Jelly Roll Morton is known mononymously as Jelly Roll?
162 etc. (
talk)
20:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- He's called "Jelly Roll" throughout the running text of his short biography by Langston Hughes, which starts off with "Ferdinand Joseph Morton, later called Jelly Roll" (much like a Wikipedia article would). He's also called either "Jelly Roll" or "Jelly" throughout the running text of the most famous biography of his life, Alan Lomax's Mister Jelly Roll. He's "Jelly Roll" in Jazz Transatlantic. Going to articles, I only looked at the first page of results, but he's "Jelly Roll" everywhere but the title in "The King of the Underworld: The Invention of Jelly Roll Morton" (Missouri Review, 2012), and I'm sure there are a lot of other academic articles along those lines, considering his prominence. By the way, I have no problem with Jelly Roll (singer) for this article. Dekimasu よ! 06:48, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
We're not going to move Cher because Cher Lloyd exists; same idea here.
No we're not. Because Cher is much, much more notable than Cher Lloyd. Surely you don't think this bloke is more notable than Jelly Roll Morton? -- Necrothesp ( talk) 13:35, 31 May 2022 (UTC)- I don't, of course; my comment was based more around the idea that the rapper turned singer is known mononymously, whereas Jelly Roll Morton is usually known by his full name. I suppose that
Jelly Roll (musician, born 1986) is an option, certainly better than the current (rapper).
162 etc. (
talk)
16:42, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- That would certainly be acceptable. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 09:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't, of course; my comment was based more around the idea that the rapper turned singer is known mononymously, whereas Jelly Roll Morton is usually known by his full name. I suppose that
Jelly Roll (musician, born 1986) is an option, certainly better than the current (rapper).
162 etc. (
talk)
16:42, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't really see it. We're not going to move
Cher because
Cher Lloyd exists; same idea here. Can you show evidence in reliable sources that Jelly Roll Morton is known mononymously as Jelly Roll?
162 etc. (
talk)
20:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Can we agree that the term Vocalist should be a better description of Jason DeFord Aka Jelly Roll? ISoldier92 ( talk) 03:46, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- "Vocalist" is not typically used, per WP:SINGERDAB. 162 etc. ( talk) 16:37, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
I don't know if this is anything, but I asked Jelly Roll about this today (not a joke -- starts at 1:56). He prefers "Singer-Songwriter", which isn't typically used per WP:SINGERDAB, but maybe lends credence to "Musician": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg-KVwSzzic&t=117 Captiveofthesun ( talk) 20:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Support
Jelly Roll (singer-songwriter). While this disambiguator is not so common, it's occasionally used, as in
Sally Taylor (singer-songwriter),
Jim Sullivan (singer-songwriter),
Richard Swift (singer-songwriter) and
Naomi (singer-songwriter). In all those cases, dab pages
Sally Taylor (disambiguation),
Jim Sullivan (disambiguation),
Richard Swift (disambiguation) and
Naomi (disambiguation) also contain at least one namesake that could be plausibly called "musician". I can also support
Jelly Roll (singer) as a second choice.
No such user (
talk)
12:09, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'll note that I've bold moved the Sally Taylor and Naomi articles. As for Sullivan and Swift, I agree that "musician" could be seen as ambiguous. 162 etc. ( talk) 23:53, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support per nom.-- Ortizesp ( talk) 19:24, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Support – The "(musician)" label seems to most accurately describe his output. In my opinion, a hatnote should most likely be sufficient to disambiguate from Jelly Roll Morton. ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 03:27, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. Jelly Roll Morton is a much better known musician. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 13:32, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Support. As for the comparison to Jelly Roll Morton, compare page views here: https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-20&pages=Jelly_Roll_(rapper)%7CJelly_Roll_Morton
- Jelly Roll's page receives much more page views than the article for Morton, signifying that on average, if one is looking for a page on a musician named "Jelly Roll", they are likely seeking this page as it is.
Yeehaw45 (
talk)
21:38, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- We usually do not depend on what has been popular over a very short time period in order to determine primary topics. I gave a
more complete picture in my comment above, which shows that views for this artist have exceeded those of Jelly Roll Morton for less than a year. Long-term significance is one of the criteria for determining a
primary topic, and by that criterion this artist is not the primary topic.
Dekimasu
よ!
13:40, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- There's also the fact that Jelly Roll Morton has "Morton" in his name. Hat notes should be sufficient. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 18:04, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- This was answered above. The location of that article does not change the fact that the title requested here is ambiguous.
Jelly Roll (musician) is a
partially disambiguated page name and under our guidelines, "In individual cases consensus may determine that a parenthetically disambiguated title that is still ambiguous has a primary topic, but the threshold for identifying a primary topic for such titles is higher than for a title without parenthetical disambiguation" (
WP:INCOMPDAB,
WP:PDAB). For articles on people, all previous moves listed at
WP:PDAB where the ambiguity of the proposed title was mentioned in the move discussion had page view ratios of at least 50:1, and that is without considering the historical significance of the competing figure in this case. The issue can be solved by using
Jelly Roll (singer) or
Jelly Roll (musician, born 1986), both of which are unambiguous.
Dekimasu
よ!
01:35, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- As the nominator, I support "singer". Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 18:27, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- This was answered above. The location of that article does not change the fact that the title requested here is ambiguous.
Jelly Roll (musician) is a
partially disambiguated page name and under our guidelines, "In individual cases consensus may determine that a parenthetically disambiguated title that is still ambiguous has a primary topic, but the threshold for identifying a primary topic for such titles is higher than for a title without parenthetical disambiguation" (
WP:INCOMPDAB,
WP:PDAB). For articles on people, all previous moves listed at
WP:PDAB where the ambiguity of the proposed title was mentioned in the move discussion had page view ratios of at least 50:1, and that is without considering the historical significance of the competing figure in this case. The issue can be solved by using
Jelly Roll (singer) or
Jelly Roll (musician, born 1986), both of which are unambiguous.
Dekimasu
よ!
01:35, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- We usually do not depend on what has been popular over a very short time period in order to determine primary topics. I gave a
more complete picture in my comment above, which shows that views for this artist have exceeded those of Jelly Roll Morton for less than a year. Long-term significance is one of the criteria for determining a
primary topic, and by that criterion this artist is not the primary topic.
Dekimasu
よ!
13:40, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Support. The hat note should be sufficient to disambiguate him from Jelly Roll Morton. The helper5667 ( talk) 04:09, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
This article needs a serious update. 68.255.61.188 ( talk) 02:45, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Awards are for Lainey Wilson not Jelly Roll. 2605:A601:A9E6:FF00:FDD0:C197:8E1D:6C2C ( talk) 20:25, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) -- Maddy from Celeste ( WAVEDASH) 18:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Jelly Roll (singer) → Jelly Roll – Though this article recently experienced a rather sharp increase in page views, even before then (specifically 9 November 2023 when the subject of this article won the CMT award), the article had an average more than 10x more page views than the subjects with a capital "R" combined. With that being said, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:DIFFCAPS, I believe it is time to give this move request some consideration. Steel1943 ( talk) 19:10, 12 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. - 🔥 𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 03:08, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Nothing has changed since the RM above.
Jelly Roll Morton is still much more notable and
Jelly roll still exists. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:05, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- ...And Jelly roll is a disambiguation page, meaning there is no primary topic for this lower case form. I'm failing to see why that is relevant here. Steel1943 ( talk) 22:28, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per
WP:PT2 per Necrothesp.
Hameltion (
talk |
contribs)
15:18, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
-
WP:PT2 doesn't apply to what
Necrothesp stated since they are comparing three subjects without considering
WP:DIFFCAPS, so it is unclear why you cited it.
Steel1943 (
talk)
23:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Jelly Roll Morton is still much more notable
: As Dekimasu argues above, Jelly Roll Morton is likely primary by long-term significance for the capitalized version. Hameltion ( talk | contribs) 01:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)- Jelly Roll Morton has a last name though. The names are not an exact match. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 20:05, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
-
WP:PT2 doesn't apply to what
Necrothesp stated since they are comparing three subjects without considering
WP:DIFFCAPS, so it is unclear why you cited it.
Steel1943 (
talk)
23:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:DIFFCAPS. This is the only subject with the exact name Jelly Roll, capital J, Capital R. Jelly Roll Morton is not an exact name-match and a hatnote can suffice there. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 17:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support This is one of those times I do not wish to agree but must support. Morton is an important Jelly Roll, but self–disambiguates with his last name. The only current capital J-R combo is this singer. Hatnotes would be a requirement though, to Morton and to Jelly roll.-- ☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 23:30, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per the previous discussion, including how I noted that major reliable sources refer to the other Jelly Roll as Jelly Roll. (Again, that does not mean there is any problem with the current natural disambiguation for
Jelly Roll Morton, but it indicates that there are other significant claims to the search term/title/redirect "Jelly Roll".)
Dekimasu
よ!
05:47, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- If only Jelly Roll Morton had a last name, like say, I dunno, "Morton"... Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)
14:55, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Sarcasm aside (again), I already replied to this comment 1.5 years ago to explain that reliable sources often refer to him as Jelly Roll. Dekimasu よ! 10:28, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- If only Jelly Roll Morton had a last name, like say, I dunno, "Morton"... Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)
14:55, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:PT2 as already noted by Hameltion, and per Dekimasu's comments above. ╠╣uw [ talk 16:22, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose This could be distinguished from cases of WP:PTM because it's certainly possible people will refer to "Jelly Roll Morton" as just "Jelly Roll", making it a potential primary topic even if the article is not titled that. It doesn't particularly aid in navigation either. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 16:08, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Some anecdotal WP:OR: I have never heard Morton referenced as anything other than full three–word name or subsequently as just Morton, almost as if radio hosts/presenters followed the
WP:SURNAME policy on their broadcasts.--
☾Loriendrew☽
☏(ring-ring)
00:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
- Agree. If any of the opposers can prove that Jelly Roll Morton is ever referred to without his last name, that'd be great. So far it's all anecdotal. Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)
20:05, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
- Well,
ever
is an easy bar to clear. He's often any of "Jelly", "Jelly Roll" and "Morton" throughout Alan Lomax's biography Mister Jelly Roll. Hameltion ( talk | contribs) 22:12, 25 November 2023 (UTC)- I had already noted this source in reply to TenPoundHammer in the last discussion, when I presented four reliable sources (not anecdotes) showing how the subject of this article is referred to as "Jelly Roll" in running text and often in titles. However, I still received exactly the same "if only Jelly Roll Morton had a last name" this time around, so I'm not sure what the bar is. Dekimasu よ! 10:28, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- Well,
- Agree. If any of the opposers can prove that Jelly Roll Morton is ever referred to without his last name, that'd be great. So far it's all anecdotal. Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)
20:05, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
- Some anecdotal WP:OR: I have never heard Morton referenced as anything other than full three–word name or subsequently as just Morton, almost as if radio hosts/presenters followed the
WP:SURNAME policy on their broadcasts.--
☾Loriendrew☽
☏(ring-ring)
00:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support - As per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, I fail to see how Jelly Roll Morton is more notable when people search Jelly Roll online. Hansen Sebastian Talk 08:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Not sure if someone vandalized the page or not, but almost all of the award nominations shown for Jelly Roll are actually Lainey Wilson's. The only ones actually belonging to Jelly Roll are the last half-dozen or so. Others are for songs like "Things a Man Oughta Know" and "Wait in the Truck," which Jelly Roll had nothing to do with. This needs to be cleaned up. 2601:18C:4080:3E90:4426:BF9C:DDA0:2B05 ( talk) 08:22, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
- Done That was horrendous. Believe it was a good faith attempt by some who copied Wilson's table over, added things but did not remove others. Thank you for pointing it out.--
☾Loriendrew☽
☏(ring-ring)
00:13, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
I'm trying to understand why the fact that hes been convicted of several felonies and sent to prison multiple times as an adult keeps getting deleted. I'm using the Davidson(Nashville) county clerk as the source. his name date of birth location all matches. I'm leaving out his misdemeanor charges only including what hes been CONVICTED of as an adult. I'm not including any of his convictions as a minor or any arrests that didn't result in a conviction. BurnCDXX ( talk) 01:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Read WP:OR and Wikipedia:BLPPRIMARY Llacb47 ( talk) 22:10, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Biography articles of living people
- C-Class biography articles
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