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Quote: "... since it is well established that the New Testament quotes the Septuagint extensively (and apparently exclusively), the other texts may not be relevant to the text of the New Testament..."
The text above is found in the conclusion of the article as it currently stands. This is simply a fabrication. Paul is (supposed to be) the author of some 13 of the 27 books in the New Testament (NT), yet he almost never quotes from any extant copy of the Septuagint. The Epistle to the Hebrews makes extensive use of the Septuagint, as do some of the Gospel writers. It is demonstrated in the
Greek-English New Testament which verses are drawn from the Septuagint. This is done by the use of a symbol like this
in the margin alongside the verse reference.
In Paul's letters, one never find this symbol in the margins, because his quotations are generally from his own translation of the Hebrew text, or at least this is the supposition. This quote should definitely be changed in the text of the article. It is unsupported.
- Yonah mishael 18:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Currently, a religious sect called The Jehovah's Witnesses is attempting to hijack parts of Wikipedia by using certain articles as free bandwidth. Any consensus from the Wikipedian community is ignored and eliminated to express its and only its views.
Who determines who or what is a sect! Based upon the religion established by Jesus and his apostles (The Way), all religions of Christendom must be sects, Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Orthodox, etc. Or is it based upon that the bullies can use derogatory names for the little ones? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.125.0 ( talk) 03:59, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
To use JW dogma to add, change, alter, delete, censor, obfuscate, or reinterpret scholarly consensus each violates Wikipedia's express policy: WP:WORLD, WP:OWN, WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NOT, WP:NPOV, et al...
Materials published by the JW Vatican (the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society), and JW websites, forums, tracts, etc may be used to describe JW dogma where relevant only.
For example, If JWs wish to express their own beliefs, they are welcome to start a new article, such as "Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrines in regard to Jehovah and the New Testament." That would be fair use of free bandwidth. -
Cestus
Cd
01:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Simply put: YHWH/Jehovah does not occur in the original New Testament. Its insertion into versions in modern languages is a novelty. Asserting that this novelty is representative of the original is a deception.
Wikipedia policy is explicit that articles must follow scholarly convention and scholarly consensus. One cannot make an article on Wikipedia conform to the doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses, nor may one compel editors to conform their edits to any religion whatsoever.
Convention and the scholarly consensus are quite clear in regard to the use of the word "Jehovah" and official statements from official sites of the Jehovah's Witnesses differ markedly. This version of this article here is sourced and cited. It also incorporates the contributions of numerous editors, including that of Jehovah's Witnesses where they may be truthful.
Each Jehovah's Witness is certainly welcome to his own point of view. The Jehovah's Witnesses have their own websites and there is even a section in this article allowing for discussion of these views. The overwhelming majority of editors do not follow that religion, but the community has been generous and even indulgent in incorporating these sectarian views in the article.
Thus, in the interests of Policies and Guidelines particularly Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Jehovah's Witnesses are strongly urged to cease conforming articles against scholarly convention and consensus. More importantly, kindly cease from demanding that editors follow sectarian religious doctrine. Editors take offense at such tactics and are unlikely to comply.
We consider it rude and it reflects badly on Jehovah's Witnesses.
There are ample websites already owned by Jehovah's Witnesses for followers to contribute to. All are welcome to contribute here inasmuch as each follows the rules. -
C.
dentata
06:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The article is inaccurate. For example, the English version of a Italian article published on the catholic magazine, edited from Dehonian friars, "Rivista Biblica", year XLV, n. 2, April-June 1997, p. 183-186. Bologna, Italy says: "... recent discoveries have shown that the practice of substituted in the LXX YHWH with KYRIOS started in a much later period in comparison with the beginning of that version.[date? context?] As a matter of fact, the older copies of the LXX keep the Tetragrammaton written in Hebrew characters in the Greek text. citation needed Girolamo, the translator of the Latin Vulgate citation needed confirms this fact. In the prologue of the books of Samuel and Kings he wrote: "In certain Greek volumes we still find the Tetragrammaton of God's name expressed in ancient characters". citation needed And in a letter citation needed written in Rome in the year 384 it says: "God's name is made up of four letters; it was thought ineffable, and it is written with these letters: iod, he, vau, he (YHWH). But some have not been able to decipher it because of the resemblance of the Greek letters and when they found it in Greek books they usually read it PIPI (pipi)". S. Girolamo, Le Lettere, Rome, 1961, vol.1, pp.237, 238; compare J.P.Migne, Patrologia Latina, vol.22, coll.429, 430."
We can conclude that the article is biased, which also the writer's nick suggests. ( Anonymous 2005-10-12 07:01:59)
The quote above, referencing the LXX, is relevant in that it refers to the nominal source for the quotations from the OT. It is manifestly the basic issue here - what did the writers of the NT quote when citing references from the OT? If the Masoretic / Hebrew text, then the quote contained the Tetragram. If the Septuagint, then, as the article asserts, they would also have quoted from a reference bearing the Tetragram and, reasonably, it would have been in the NT. (Amanuensis03 2006-02-18 18:26:07 )
A visit to http://www.e-sword.net will furnish one with the opportunity to verify the accuracy of quotations shown from translations numbered as 4 & 5 above; one will have to download e-sword, download the bibles and then install all files, including fonts unique to the bible.
Those listed as #1, 2, 9 & 11 have urls attached to the citation and can be easily verified.
The Hutter referred to is a well-respected translation and somewhat of a unique bible; copies are called 'Hutters' reasonbly enough and are prized. Hutter himself founded the movement that is still in existence today and bears his name. For information about him from a modern day perspective, visit this site: http://www.hutterites.org/hutter.htm (Amanuensis03 2006-02-18 01:46:09 )
Further, note that assertion made regarding '10,000s of translations.' If that is meant to be a truthful statement and not hyperbole, then there must be at least 20,000 translations of the NT - a very fanciful number and one that needs some source to be seen as believable.
Here is the list which he asserts is irrelevant; whether it is relevant or not should be left to the reader to judge; if the reader adjudges the translations shown as irrelevant, then so be it. How though can they do so if the list is suppressed? Censorship is not reason.
1. The Sacred Name King James Version
[2];
2. The Scriptures [3];
3. Moffat’s translation of the Bible in Tswana [the first complete Bible to be printed in Africa, in 1872];
4. The Chinese Union Version, Simplified [4]uses 耶和华 [the chinese equivalent of Jehovah] in Revelation 19.1;
5. The Chinese Union Version, Traditional [ibid.];
6. The Chinese Union Version, GB;
7. The Malagasy Bible, Protestant Version, uses Jehovah in the NT;
8. The Malagasy Bible, Catholic version, uses IAVEH at Matt 4.7 & 10;
9. The Restored Name King James Version [5] uses the Tetragrammaton itself in the text of the NT and uses YAH for the Hebrew parse of the Tetragrammaton rendered JAH by the KJ and ASV;
10. The Christian Greek Scriptures in 12 languages by Elias Hutter, 1599, uses the Tetragrammaton in the Hebrew translation of the NT;
11. The Hebraic Roots Version (NT only) [6] uses YHWH.
Worse, personally attacking another is a formal error in logic - demonstrating the weakness of the arguments advanced.
Regarding the citations of LXX in papyrus, note what Professor George Howard stated: “When the Septuagint which the New Testament church used and quoted contained the Hebrew form of the divine name, the New Testament writers no doubt included the Tetragrammaton in their quotations.” (Biblical Archaeology Review, March 1978, page 14)
Further, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states: "Recently discovered texts doubt the idea that the translators of the LXX have rendered the Tetragrammaton JHWH with KYRIOS. The most ancient mss (manuscripts) of the LXX today available have the Tetragrammaton written in Hebrew letters in the Greek text. This was custom preserved by the later Hebrew translator of the Old Testament in the first centuries (after Christ)". Vol.2, pag.512 citation needed
With respect to the Dead Sea scrolls, referred to in the main article, please go to the following site and note the image therein of a portion of the Psalms wherein the tetragrammaton is shown in older phoenician letters: http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/full-images/psalm-b.gif
The following fragments are sometimes mistaken for fragments from the Septuagint. However, in ancient times, there were at least seven versions of the OT in Greek, none of which was the Septuagint (and especially not the New Testament) and none of which was officially used in the Church:
Here's one page talking about all three mentioned scriptures, and some others: http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/hiding.html. It took me about two seconds to find this. Surely I'm not the only one that knows how to use search engines here. You can find enough to read until the cows come home. Tommstein 08:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I have comments to this statement: "Jesus quoted numerous times from the Old Testament, including his replies to the tempter where he indicates that he is God: "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matthew 4.7). Here as elsewhere, he quotes from the Greek Septuagint." 1: To say that Jesus by this statement indicated that he himself was God/YHWH, is an interpretation. I believe one must see this in context, and take into account verse 6, where the Devil says, "If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone." Who is being tempted here? Surely, Jesus would actually be the one putting his Father to the test by casting himself off the mount. My conclusion on this is: Mt 4:7 is here being interpreted; and interpretations should be left to the reader! 2: It is not obvious that Jesus himself quoted the Greek Septuagint; but the writer of Matthew's Gospel quoted it, later writing what had happened! Jesus spoke and read Hebrew/Aramaic, and had access to the Hebrew Scriptures in its original letter. -Sommer.
What do this box in this article? This article is not about any particular god, it is an essay about the use of a name in the Bible. I think this box do not belong to this article. Summer Song 18:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
What is your deal with Jehovah's Witnesses? You gave me the same nonsense on the Jehovah article with no legitimate basis for your reverts/edits. I'm trying to make this article better. I've sourced my facts, removed unsourced information that contradicts those facts, I've removed POV and redundancy and changed the reference system. My focus is accuracy first, we can work on the rather convoluted prose next. If there is conflicting sourced information then by all means present it, but the fact stands the previous version of the article was built around the incorrect (and unsourced) assertion that Septuagints didn't contain the divine name. I have provided indesputable evidence to the contrary. The most well preserved, oldest (100 B.C!) GREEK Septuagint of the book of Deuteronomy contains 49 identifiable instances of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton. After we get the facts straight we can hammer out the prose, either way: 1 - Please do not revert sourced information per WP:VERIFY without VERY good reason, 2 - A revert war would just move this article backwards, bring your information to the table, we'll sort it out and make a good, well referenced article. Duffer 07:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is convoluted, inaccurate, and very redundant. How many times does the article need to say: "The Septuagint does not contain forms of the word YHWH.." regardless of the fact that this assertion is wrong, and I have proven that, the article makes this particular assertion (or variations of) SEVEN times! At least one of the sentences I changed contains completely unsalvagable grammar, there's a myriad of asserted (unsourced) conclusions ("diseptive" "various assumptions" (which coincidentally are provable facts) "Indeed", bad faith "See Also" summaries and an irrelavant catagory "Forgery"; the "Main Article" isn't even right. I'm damned tired of being right yet get constantly battled over my edits simply because I'm a Jehovah's Witness. Duffer 08:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
The title "Jehovah in the New Testament" implies that Jehovah is the correct pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton, which is by no means the case. I have therefore redirected the article to the more neutral title Tetragrammaton in the New Testament. Yahnatan 00:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
For that matter not one of the Hebrew names is pronounced correctly in English; if that is the criteria than the Bible must remain nameless. Example: why do English speakers say Cologne, when the German name is Koeln? Because they can't say Koeln, perhaps they should say: the big German city on the Rheine river with the large Cathedral! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.125.0 ( talk) 04:22, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
Quote: "... since it is well established that the New Testament quotes the Septuagint extensively (and apparently exclusively), the other texts may not be relevant to the text of the New Testament..."
The text above is found in the conclusion of the article as it currently stands. This is simply a fabrication. Paul is (supposed to be) the author of some 13 of the 27 books in the New Testament (NT), yet he almost never quotes from any extant copy of the Septuagint. The Epistle to the Hebrews makes extensive use of the Septuagint, as do some of the Gospel writers. It is demonstrated in the
Greek-English New Testament which verses are drawn from the Septuagint. This is done by the use of a symbol like this
in the margin alongside the verse reference.
In Paul's letters, one never find this symbol in the margins, because his quotations are generally from his own translation of the Hebrew text, or at least this is the supposition. This quote should definitely be changed in the text of the article. It is unsupported.
- Yonah mishael 18:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Currently, a religious sect called The Jehovah's Witnesses is attempting to hijack parts of Wikipedia by using certain articles as free bandwidth. Any consensus from the Wikipedian community is ignored and eliminated to express its and only its views.
Who determines who or what is a sect! Based upon the religion established by Jesus and his apostles (The Way), all religions of Christendom must be sects, Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Orthodox, etc. Or is it based upon that the bullies can use derogatory names for the little ones? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.125.0 ( talk) 03:59, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
To use JW dogma to add, change, alter, delete, censor, obfuscate, or reinterpret scholarly consensus each violates Wikipedia's express policy: WP:WORLD, WP:OWN, WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NOT, WP:NPOV, et al...
Materials published by the JW Vatican (the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society), and JW websites, forums, tracts, etc may be used to describe JW dogma where relevant only.
For example, If JWs wish to express their own beliefs, they are welcome to start a new article, such as "Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrines in regard to Jehovah and the New Testament." That would be fair use of free bandwidth. -
Cestus
Cd
01:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Simply put: YHWH/Jehovah does not occur in the original New Testament. Its insertion into versions in modern languages is a novelty. Asserting that this novelty is representative of the original is a deception.
Wikipedia policy is explicit that articles must follow scholarly convention and scholarly consensus. One cannot make an article on Wikipedia conform to the doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses, nor may one compel editors to conform their edits to any religion whatsoever.
Convention and the scholarly consensus are quite clear in regard to the use of the word "Jehovah" and official statements from official sites of the Jehovah's Witnesses differ markedly. This version of this article here is sourced and cited. It also incorporates the contributions of numerous editors, including that of Jehovah's Witnesses where they may be truthful.
Each Jehovah's Witness is certainly welcome to his own point of view. The Jehovah's Witnesses have their own websites and there is even a section in this article allowing for discussion of these views. The overwhelming majority of editors do not follow that religion, but the community has been generous and even indulgent in incorporating these sectarian views in the article.
Thus, in the interests of Policies and Guidelines particularly Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Jehovah's Witnesses are strongly urged to cease conforming articles against scholarly convention and consensus. More importantly, kindly cease from demanding that editors follow sectarian religious doctrine. Editors take offense at such tactics and are unlikely to comply.
We consider it rude and it reflects badly on Jehovah's Witnesses.
There are ample websites already owned by Jehovah's Witnesses for followers to contribute to. All are welcome to contribute here inasmuch as each follows the rules. -
C.
dentata
06:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The article is inaccurate. For example, the English version of a Italian article published on the catholic magazine, edited from Dehonian friars, "Rivista Biblica", year XLV, n. 2, April-June 1997, p. 183-186. Bologna, Italy says: "... recent discoveries have shown that the practice of substituted in the LXX YHWH with KYRIOS started in a much later period in comparison with the beginning of that version.[date? context?] As a matter of fact, the older copies of the LXX keep the Tetragrammaton written in Hebrew characters in the Greek text. citation needed Girolamo, the translator of the Latin Vulgate citation needed confirms this fact. In the prologue of the books of Samuel and Kings he wrote: "In certain Greek volumes we still find the Tetragrammaton of God's name expressed in ancient characters". citation needed And in a letter citation needed written in Rome in the year 384 it says: "God's name is made up of four letters; it was thought ineffable, and it is written with these letters: iod, he, vau, he (YHWH). But some have not been able to decipher it because of the resemblance of the Greek letters and when they found it in Greek books they usually read it PIPI (pipi)". S. Girolamo, Le Lettere, Rome, 1961, vol.1, pp.237, 238; compare J.P.Migne, Patrologia Latina, vol.22, coll.429, 430."
We can conclude that the article is biased, which also the writer's nick suggests. ( Anonymous 2005-10-12 07:01:59)
The quote above, referencing the LXX, is relevant in that it refers to the nominal source for the quotations from the OT. It is manifestly the basic issue here - what did the writers of the NT quote when citing references from the OT? If the Masoretic / Hebrew text, then the quote contained the Tetragram. If the Septuagint, then, as the article asserts, they would also have quoted from a reference bearing the Tetragram and, reasonably, it would have been in the NT. (Amanuensis03 2006-02-18 18:26:07 )
A visit to http://www.e-sword.net will furnish one with the opportunity to verify the accuracy of quotations shown from translations numbered as 4 & 5 above; one will have to download e-sword, download the bibles and then install all files, including fonts unique to the bible.
Those listed as #1, 2, 9 & 11 have urls attached to the citation and can be easily verified.
The Hutter referred to is a well-respected translation and somewhat of a unique bible; copies are called 'Hutters' reasonbly enough and are prized. Hutter himself founded the movement that is still in existence today and bears his name. For information about him from a modern day perspective, visit this site: http://www.hutterites.org/hutter.htm (Amanuensis03 2006-02-18 01:46:09 )
Further, note that assertion made regarding '10,000s of translations.' If that is meant to be a truthful statement and not hyperbole, then there must be at least 20,000 translations of the NT - a very fanciful number and one that needs some source to be seen as believable.
Here is the list which he asserts is irrelevant; whether it is relevant or not should be left to the reader to judge; if the reader adjudges the translations shown as irrelevant, then so be it. How though can they do so if the list is suppressed? Censorship is not reason.
1. The Sacred Name King James Version
[2];
2. The Scriptures [3];
3. Moffat’s translation of the Bible in Tswana [the first complete Bible to be printed in Africa, in 1872];
4. The Chinese Union Version, Simplified [4]uses 耶和华 [the chinese equivalent of Jehovah] in Revelation 19.1;
5. The Chinese Union Version, Traditional [ibid.];
6. The Chinese Union Version, GB;
7. The Malagasy Bible, Protestant Version, uses Jehovah in the NT;
8. The Malagasy Bible, Catholic version, uses IAVEH at Matt 4.7 & 10;
9. The Restored Name King James Version [5] uses the Tetragrammaton itself in the text of the NT and uses YAH for the Hebrew parse of the Tetragrammaton rendered JAH by the KJ and ASV;
10. The Christian Greek Scriptures in 12 languages by Elias Hutter, 1599, uses the Tetragrammaton in the Hebrew translation of the NT;
11. The Hebraic Roots Version (NT only) [6] uses YHWH.
Worse, personally attacking another is a formal error in logic - demonstrating the weakness of the arguments advanced.
Regarding the citations of LXX in papyrus, note what Professor George Howard stated: “When the Septuagint which the New Testament church used and quoted contained the Hebrew form of the divine name, the New Testament writers no doubt included the Tetragrammaton in their quotations.” (Biblical Archaeology Review, March 1978, page 14)
Further, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states: "Recently discovered texts doubt the idea that the translators of the LXX have rendered the Tetragrammaton JHWH with KYRIOS. The most ancient mss (manuscripts) of the LXX today available have the Tetragrammaton written in Hebrew letters in the Greek text. This was custom preserved by the later Hebrew translator of the Old Testament in the first centuries (after Christ)". Vol.2, pag.512 citation needed
With respect to the Dead Sea scrolls, referred to in the main article, please go to the following site and note the image therein of a portion of the Psalms wherein the tetragrammaton is shown in older phoenician letters: http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/full-images/psalm-b.gif
The following fragments are sometimes mistaken for fragments from the Septuagint. However, in ancient times, there were at least seven versions of the OT in Greek, none of which was the Septuagint (and especially not the New Testament) and none of which was officially used in the Church:
Here's one page talking about all three mentioned scriptures, and some others: http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/hiding.html. It took me about two seconds to find this. Surely I'm not the only one that knows how to use search engines here. You can find enough to read until the cows come home. Tommstein 08:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I have comments to this statement: "Jesus quoted numerous times from the Old Testament, including his replies to the tempter where he indicates that he is God: "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matthew 4.7). Here as elsewhere, he quotes from the Greek Septuagint." 1: To say that Jesus by this statement indicated that he himself was God/YHWH, is an interpretation. I believe one must see this in context, and take into account verse 6, where the Devil says, "If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone." Who is being tempted here? Surely, Jesus would actually be the one putting his Father to the test by casting himself off the mount. My conclusion on this is: Mt 4:7 is here being interpreted; and interpretations should be left to the reader! 2: It is not obvious that Jesus himself quoted the Greek Septuagint; but the writer of Matthew's Gospel quoted it, later writing what had happened! Jesus spoke and read Hebrew/Aramaic, and had access to the Hebrew Scriptures in its original letter. -Sommer.
What do this box in this article? This article is not about any particular god, it is an essay about the use of a name in the Bible. I think this box do not belong to this article. Summer Song 18:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
What is your deal with Jehovah's Witnesses? You gave me the same nonsense on the Jehovah article with no legitimate basis for your reverts/edits. I'm trying to make this article better. I've sourced my facts, removed unsourced information that contradicts those facts, I've removed POV and redundancy and changed the reference system. My focus is accuracy first, we can work on the rather convoluted prose next. If there is conflicting sourced information then by all means present it, but the fact stands the previous version of the article was built around the incorrect (and unsourced) assertion that Septuagints didn't contain the divine name. I have provided indesputable evidence to the contrary. The most well preserved, oldest (100 B.C!) GREEK Septuagint of the book of Deuteronomy contains 49 identifiable instances of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton. After we get the facts straight we can hammer out the prose, either way: 1 - Please do not revert sourced information per WP:VERIFY without VERY good reason, 2 - A revert war would just move this article backwards, bring your information to the table, we'll sort it out and make a good, well referenced article. Duffer 07:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is convoluted, inaccurate, and very redundant. How many times does the article need to say: "The Septuagint does not contain forms of the word YHWH.." regardless of the fact that this assertion is wrong, and I have proven that, the article makes this particular assertion (or variations of) SEVEN times! At least one of the sentences I changed contains completely unsalvagable grammar, there's a myriad of asserted (unsourced) conclusions ("diseptive" "various assumptions" (which coincidentally are provable facts) "Indeed", bad faith "See Also" summaries and an irrelavant catagory "Forgery"; the "Main Article" isn't even right. I'm damned tired of being right yet get constantly battled over my edits simply because I'm a Jehovah's Witness. Duffer 08:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
The title "Jehovah in the New Testament" implies that Jehovah is the correct pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton, which is by no means the case. I have therefore redirected the article to the more neutral title Tetragrammaton in the New Testament. Yahnatan 00:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
For that matter not one of the Hebrew names is pronounced correctly in English; if that is the criteria than the Bible must remain nameless. Example: why do English speakers say Cologne, when the German name is Koeln? Because they can't say Koeln, perhaps they should say: the big German city on the Rheine river with the large Cathedral! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.125.0 ( talk) 04:22, 10 April 2012 (UTC)