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Coruscant ( talk) 14:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC) 'Jediism' is not what it is called, it's simply 'Jedi'. e.g "I am a Jedi" i.e "I'm a follower of the Jedi religion."
Deleted content:
The UK Church of Jediism
Brothers Daniel and Barney Jones founded the UK Church of Jediism in 2008 [1]. The Church is located in Holyhead, Angelsey, where they regularly hold meetings. According to Daniel Jones (Founder), the Church offers lessons on the Force, Lightsaber training and Meditation techniques.
The UK Church of Jediism is looked upon as the headquarters of Jediism by some.
Churches and other organizations have nothing to do on this page, and I even doubt such a thing has anything to do in wikipedia AT ALL. (and just reading their article for 5 seconds I already found LIES on it). The fact is, it may be looked upon as HQ for some, it is looked upon as a complete joke by many, and a source of shame for others, and claiming 500.000 members (even boosting the census results!) will not help in changing that. Ren ✉ 18:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
The UK Church of Jediism, I thought would have something to do with Jediism. May I ask you to list the lies you found in their article? Also, if you're saying Churches and 'other organizations' have nothing to do with Wikipedia, then why are their so many pages on churches and religious authorititive buildings - the Vatican, I name as one. Please reference your comment of 'it is looked upon as a complete joke by many' - I do not believe this for one second. The 500,000 members is a confirmed rounded number of the number of Jedi throughout the World. You may have seen the 390,000 figure, but I'd like to point out this is in Britain only. Please list a reason for deleting the section other than your own opinion. This is like saying 'An information page on Catholicism can't have a brief paragraph on the Vatican, as some non-believers think it is not the Headquaters for them. . Kai Tatsu ✉ 16.53 10 September 2009 (GMT)
Note that the Christianity article is far longer than this one, and mentions the vatican ONCE, as a country which has christianity as state religion. And that's keeping in mind the apostolic palace isn't a crumbling building in a welsh village. Ren ✉ 12:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Should it not be noted that most people who put 'Jedi' on their cencus forms did so as a joke? It is an alternative to writing 'N/A'
Are there any people who claim to practice this religion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elmmapleoakpine ( talk • contribs) 01:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Now, whatever the case may be as to whether this is a joke or not, if there is anyone for whom it is not a joke, I'm not sure that it could be called non-theist or pantheist. There are numerous references in the Star Wars canon that spell out that the Force seems to have a will (see for example Knights of the Old Republic II). It would perhaps be better to call it dualist theism of some sort. Then again, this all depends on whether or not the supposed Jedi-ist in question actually believe the Force in some sense exists in the real world or whether they are simply making a joke about religion in general. Corbmobile ( talk) 22:31, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Noone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.0.108.107 ( talk) 22:46, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Please do not post offensive comments on Wikipedia - this is a religion with over half a million followers world wide, according to 2001 censuses. Over 390,000 people in Britain alone claimed to be of the Jedi faith - making it the forth largest religion in Britain, if we're going by statistics from the 2001 census. Kai Tatsu ( talk) 21:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Not that I wish to offend anyone and I do believe in freedom of religion. but what evidence is there of Star Wars practiced other than the census’s than may or may not have been made buy followers of this new religion? And lastly I thought Star Wars was generally regarded as a work of fiction not fact. 28.11.09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.39.128.217 ( talk) 19:34, 28 November 2009 (UTC) There's lots of evidence given throughout the article. Also, Star Wars is considered to be an inspiring work of fiction in Jediism. Nothing more. Some Jedi don't actually like SW. Ren ✉ 10:51, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Please use this reliable source instead of Internet forums:
Possamai, A 2003 ‘Alternative Spiritualities, New Religious Movements and Jediism in Australia’ Australian Religion Studies Review 16 (2): 69-8
Shii (tock) 12:17, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
At the top of the article, it says, "Jediism is a non-theistic new religious movement[1][2][3] based upon the philosophical and spiritual ideas of the Jedi AS DEPICTED IN THE STAR WARS MEDIA.[4]" In the "Sides of the Force" section of this article, there is some question about whether or not a "dark side" of the force exists. I added this direct, sourced quote from a Star Wars movie: "In "The Empire Strikes Back" Master Yoda says to Luke, "Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the force. But beware the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side of the force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."[15] This quote was removed. Why? Is there another Jediism that is NOT based on the Star Wars movies? As anyone who has watched the movies knows, there IS a "dark side" of the force. 114.161.229.100 ( talk) 07:51, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Luke: “Is the dark side stronger?” Yoda: “No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.” Luke: “But how am I to know the good side from the bad?” Yoda: “You will know… when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.” 114.161.229.100 ( talk) 07:57, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
There were some references which were recently removed by another user. Jediism is not a religion present in Star Wars, therefore using Star Wars references is inappropriate. If you feel like talking about Star Wars Force and Star Wars Jedi, I suggest you edit Jedi and Star Wars instead. Ren ✉ 12:14, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Why was the material in parenthesis removed from the Philosophy section? Without this information, a reader may assume many incorrect things, such as that Jediism recognizes Jesus Christ as the son of God, or that Muhammed is the one true prophet: "It also shares basic ideals with many other religions (such as the existence of a struggle between Good and Evil in the universe, the importance of peace, the value of life, and service to others, for example), the Code of Chivalry, and spiritual aspects of some martial arts.[8]" 114.161.229.100 ( talk) 08:16, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm basing my opinion of Jediism on Jediism. You're basing your opinion of Jediism on Star Wars. If you feel like talking about Star Wars Force and Star Wars Jedi, I suggest you edit Jedi and Star Wars instead. Ren ✉ 12:16, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I suspect Shii removed some 'valid' sources. I also see the external websites list is enlarging, and some of them are already in the dmoz template I inserted some time ago. The sentence wasn't removed, only the OR ("such as the existence of a struggle between Good and Evil in the universe, the importance of peace, the value of life, and service to others, for example"). Also I would like to point out that religion articles usually use a lot of primary sources, simply because people tend to study their own religion in details. Secondary sources are very hard to find in Jediism as well. Ren ✉ 13:46, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Jediism. I would like to point out that wikipedia shouldn't be used as a forum, so I'm going to stop here. Ren ✉ 21:34, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
What are "real world" Jedi? Are there any references to support this line at the end of the first paragraph of the article? 114.161.229.100 ( talk) 05:59, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
No. It's not insulting. Fantasy Jedi can be found in Star Wars. Real world jedi can be found in the real world. Before the census "Jediism", the word, didn't exist. People just called it Jedi religion. The problem is that on the census, people replied "Jedi", "Jedi knight" or even "sith", causing the media to write all sorts of rubbish as usual. "Jediism" was coined to distance itself from that. Ren ✉ 15:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
the article doesn't mention "real world Jediism", but real world Jedi. There are real world Jedi, fake real-world Jedi, and fantasy Jedi. The Jedi word comes from fantasy Jedi. Jediism comes from that word. Jediism only exists in the real world, "Jedi" exist in both. Niteshift, please stop acting like a Hannigan. It gives us all a bad name. Ren ✉ 00:51, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I defend my contributions. You have been twisting my words every time I have answered your questions. This behaviour is well known in the Jedi community and usually attributed to a single individual, usually referred to as "Hannigan". But, as I said before, this is no place for such non-sense. Ren ✉ 03:00, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
A: I don't recall reverting any of your edits or ever taking part in an edit war. B: Maybe I am an expert on the topic C: So far your input has been a display of poor social skills towards me and the IP user. Ren ✉ 05:29, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
A: In which case stop claiming that I do not allow your input or that I said things I didn't. B: I do not disclose my identity on the internet. C: I am not lecturing. Ren ✉ 06:50, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
"Ren, you can't have it both ways. If Jediism has nothing to do with Star Wars, like you keep telling us" No, I don't keep telling anyone. I'm pretty sure I wrote 90% of that article, including the first sentence: "Jediism is a non-theistic new religious movement[1][2][3] based upon the philosophical and spiritual ideas of the Jedi as depicted in Star Wars media."
That's basically the issue you've had with me. I've assumed good faith long enough with you. I give up. I guess we met before? A quick look at your page suggests why we don't get along. Ren ✉ 09:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I, A: didn't say I was an expert, you, however, automatically assumed I wasn't. And B: Never objected to the removal of the quotation marks, but supported the inclusion of "real world" as I feel it clarifies the situation in a non-discriminative way. In the same fashion, I repeat, I didn't say Star Wars had nothing to do with Jediism and in fact previously wrote the opposite in the article. I suggest you read this talk page again. What you have been doing is called libel. Since you refuted my possible explanations for us not getting along, then I confirm, it IS indeed bad faith. You've had a go at me when we didn't even disagree on anything about the article... And I'm sure you know wikipedia policies at least as well as I do. Ren ✉ 12:33, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Fellas, this is getting old. I've I think made an edit to the article that removes the "real-world" text while retaining the underlying *ahem* uncited claim. Ren, the bit about libel is a shuffle toward a legal threat, which you don't want to escalate. Please, both of you, go find other things to edit for a bit other than this talk page and article. -- EEMIV ( talk) 14:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I apologize. There is no way I wish to make any kind of legal threats... However I find it particularly distasteful when people claim I said or wrote things I did not. It happened to me before, I didn't do anything about it and it tarnished my reputation, something hard to create and easy to destroy.
Niteshift: "I objected to the quotation marks....then you chimed in about how I was wrong" I didn't. My comment regarding that "real world" thing was aimed at the IP user, who claimed that using "real world" (with or without parenthesis) could somehow offend some people, by implying there would be fantasy Jedi(ists?) (in the real world? It doesnt make any sense to me anyway). I don't know why you thought it was directed at you, but I saw your reply as an attack and I became certain you were Hannigan, who enjoys taking the piss at me(and many others) that way... So I apologize. I should have been more generous with that "assume good faith" stuff.
Note: To set the record clear, as it has been my point all along, I do not claim that Jediism has absolutely nothing to do with Star Wars, and only wish for them to be treated as what they are: different subjects. Related, but different. I also never had any objections to the removal of the quotes around "real world", and still do not have any. That's all I want. really. I mean that. Sorry for the confusion and for contributing in the heated exchanges.
EEMIV: Why should we need to get a reference for "real life Jedi"? Why is it necessary to prove that there is a difference between a character in a movie and a real guy? Or that followers of Jediism are called Jedi? Do we need to prove that followers of christianity are called christians, and that some of them live in the "real world"[citation needed], not just as characters in american movies or an old "holy"[explain] book[verify claims]? Ren ✉ 17:11, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
? I'm not talking about the quotes, but about the "underlying *ahem* uncited claim". Wait. You were still going on about the pejorative meaning the quotation marks brought along?
Listen I'm getting really confused now, I'm going to edit it my way and someone, please tell me wtf is wrong with it because it's obviously not coming through to me. Ren ✉ 20:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Not even that, there weren't quotation marks on the article to begin with! Ren ✉ 17:21, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Wow, isn't this article going backwards? I added all kinds of references (numbers of people claiming "Jedi" as their religion on census forms by country, basis of the idea as discussed by George Lucas, quotes from Star Wars about the Force) but they've all been removed. Soon there will be no references left at all, and the article will be pure OR and personal opinion! 114.161.229.100 ( talk) 11:53, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I know. They are still in the history, I'm thinking about doing some kind of massive revert/merge. Ren ✉ 00:08, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I notice that it's getting SPAM. Somebody starts a site with one or three members yesterday and puts a link. That won't do. Br.John.Henry.Phelan ( talk) 02:30, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
The census issue is covered at Jedi census phenomenon and so is therefore off-topic for this article, which is covering the idea of it being followed as a genuine religion. There is no evidence to suggest that all these people were actually members of a real Jedi religion as covered at this article (indeed, the claim is quite absurd). Just because we have no good refs left, is not an argument for putting in more bad refs. You have to go and find good refs - or else it simply shouldn't be on Wikipedia. I already addressed my reasoning for removing the census numbers in the Talk page, so please address that before reverting. Mdwh ( talk) 01:41, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
We've had someone do some adding as well, John. I think those who believe in the UK church are trying to keep this page to themselves. >.> Setanaoko ( talk) 07:26, 8 October 2010 (JST)
Are religious people such as the UK Church or Christians being biased by devolving this article and destoying the work of those who have provided referenced contributions? Maybe they are scared that Jediism will become more popular than Christianity, maybe. Wikipedia must not be baised! One cannot remove the facts because they do not agree with the topic. Wikimedia should continue to provide the vehicle for article development and concept clarification, not article destruction. Either way the current state of this article is very poor and needs development, development which has repeatedly been removed.
The link for churchofthejedi.org has been removed by more than one editor. The IP address adding it is from the same area that the Church is located in, which is Spring Hill, Florida. Aside from the possible COI, it looks like the site is being added contrary to WP:EL, which advises against the adding of sites to promote them. The domain churchofthejedi.org was just registered on Jan. 16, 2010 by a man in.....Spring Hill, FL. I have to laugh when the home page included 2 things.....a poll that has a spelling error in the question and a big pay pal button to accept donations. Smelling a lot like spam. Niteshift36 ( talk) 04:05, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Though people tend to claim that the religion is officially recognised I do not know where this is true. In many US states one need do nothing but register a name to become a "religion". In Canada this process is far more complex. In Ontario one must have an existing organisation for 20 years and then can petition the Ministry of Commercial and Consumer Relations, register a "Book of Common Prayer" and fill out some forms to become an Officially Recognised Religion. The inclusion on the census form only reflects frequency of response, not official recognition.
Universal Life Church will ordain anyone, anywhere for whatever reason. For a dollar you can be a Saint or an Angel even. They hardly count as an authority.
I will point out, though, that although Star Wars is a work of fiction, Lucas was advised by Theologeon Joseph Campbell and the original series includes many Shinto, Buddhist, Hermetic and even Gurdjeiffian concepts. The idea of the Force can be seen in the works of many Hermeticists under the names Life-Power, One-Force, LVX, Limitless Light, and others. Though there may be an historical connection for the ideas expressed in Jediism it is still an NRM/Cult without legal foundation as a religion. (I use the word Cult in its anthropological sense, not in the sensationalist media sense.)
It would also be interesting to know whether or not there is a single "authority" or multiple sects. Also any quotes Lucas himself may have on the subject would be valuable as to the legitimacy of using the term Jedi in the first place. Frater SG ( talk) 03:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Lucas' trademarks doesn't cover religion topics. i would like to add that many countries do not recognize any religions, and as niteshift puts it, tax-exempt status (I don't know how it happens in the US) as a religious organization is the way to go. there are a few tax-exempt jedi organizations in and outside the US. One in Canada actually.
Ren
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05:17, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
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Considering that to the Jedi , using the 'Force' is the primary aspect of being a Jedi, this renders Jediism a thoroughly pointless exercise. Because the 'Force' does not exist. And so cannot be used. Chunner ( talk) 16:46, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Your point being? The Force does not exist. It is a fictional concept dreamt up by & in the fevered imagination of George Lucas. That is not a point of view. It is a FACT One cannot prove or disprove the exsistence of God or Gods? That is a point of view. One cannot prove or disprove the exsistence of the Force? Incorrect! False!! Wrong!!! The Jedi use the Force to effect drastic, tangible, physical real time changes in themselves, their immediate environment or opponents. Being aware of and being able to 'Use the Force' is the primary aspect, the be-all and end-all of being a Jedi. A Jedi who cannot use 'The Force' is not a Jedi. As there is no Force, There can be no Jedi. But, as you say, if it makes them happy, they should go for it. Yours, as always, and with a smile, Chunner ( talk) 16:46, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Secondly your basis that there is no Force is that George Lucas invented a 'ficitious concept.' This is not entirely true either. George Lucas adapted a pre-existing concept to a work of fiction. This is different from inventing a concept outright. He didn't dream up something like Dark Energy. He took from a rich history of human spirituality in crafting the Jedi order. The concept behind 'the Force,' he gave a new name and a new interpretation too, but that's what people have been doing throughout time. Humanity has known 'the Force' under many names. Tao, Spirit, Ether, Chi, Akasha, Divinity, God/dess energy, etc. Whatever that 'something' ultimately is, and whether or not it really exists, has been a matter of contention for quite some time. I suppose we might say, in lack of any means to verify the existance or not, that any spiritual pursuit is "all rather pointless" but too many people have found value in it for that to be an objectively true statement. Stryse ( talk) 02:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Trying to veiw spirituality or religious matters objectivley is a contradiction in point. Religion is a subjective subject! As a longstanding fan of Monty Python I have to say I've come here for the argument! It seems that you are attempting to gather all known spiritual & religious movements and ideas and palm them off as aspects of 'The Force'. This is a foolhardy attempt to justify the possible exsistence of a 'made for TV' pseudo-religion. Humanity has known 'The Force' under many names?...I'm afraid this is getting pretty creepy....Are you serious? If a member of the general public wishes to shop in Tesco's wearing a Hoodie and calling himself a Jedi, It's OK with me. But it don't make him one. Is All I'm Sayin! TTFN Chunner ( talk) 19:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC
AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE FORCE LIGHTNING!!!! THE FORCE LIGHTNING!!!!!! GASP!!! *CHOKE* COUGH!!!! THE DEADLY FORCE GRIP!!! THE DEADLY FORCE GRIIIPPP!!!! AAAARRRGGGHHHH! THE FORCE LIGHTNING!!!!! THE FORCE LIGHTNING!!!!!!!!! GASP!!! *CHOKE* COUGHhhhhhhhh................ TTFN Chunner ( talk) 19:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Incorrect! False!! Wrong!!!" Ok then, Please disprove its existence. 129.139.1.68 ( talk) 21:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Are You A Jedi or Sith? Are You A Force Sensitive? Can You 'USE' the 'FORCE'? No? That's because THE FORCE is a FICTIONAL, quasi pseudo scientific made-for-tv religion. It is practiced and used by FICTIONAL characters in FICTIONAL settings for FICTIONAL plot developments. Ok then? |
What is the relevance of this section, it doesn't even refer to Jediism but instead refers to the Matrix Memnoich ( talk) 18:27, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Some people decide to have some good-natured fun with a govenment census and merit an article as if it was all done in earnest? Ekwos ( talk) 03:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
The ones who were *just* having fun with the census aren't typically the ones involved in Jediism (or Jedi Realism). Which of course raises the point that just because census forms shows X number of people are Jedi, we can't really consider that number as accurate since its fairly well accepted that more than a few people filled out Jedi as part of the joke. Nevertheless, there are those who filled in that response with complete seriousness on their part. Any religion can look foolish in its infancy, but if they're serious about it, they'll eventually grow up into something only fools would say is foolish. :P
Of course this article doesn't do a very good job of exploring the wide diversity that is the Jedi movement. 24.205.194.2 ( talk) 23:41, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
I always beleived that Jediism is a parody religion. Please clarify why this is not put down as a parody religion, whereas other, apparently similarly foolish religions, such as FSMism are not, as it seems to be that Wikipedia is guility of non- impartiality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.152.71.65 ( talk) 13:54, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
No, this is not the point at all. You must supply citations or even simple links to websites pertaining to Jedi believers. For some, it is not a parody, though it is a misguided and silly pursuit. To include real-world Jedi influence, however, there must be real-world citations. What I find pitiful is that it takes a film to move people into the realm of enlightenment. Therefore, if you wish to flesh out this article properly, there should also be cited objections to the use of a bunch of film characters as the foundation of a religion. 75.21.144.68 ( talk) 16:57, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
It began in Australia, because they resented the census. They wanted to foul it up by putting Jedi in the religion box. It was never about "devout Jedis". There was no such move at the time. It began a bit later. 75.21.159.227 ( talk) 16:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
The former Church of Jediism is now Church of Jediism Limited - a for profit business.
The Holyhead UK Church of Jediism incorporated as a for profit business in June 2010. Their Charter says nothing about it being a church or engaging in religious or charitable activities but does say that all profits / dividends go to the sole owner - Daniel Morgan Jones. The corporations model limited by shares does not allow for members. Their legal name is now Church of Jediism Limited. A copy of the Charter is available at http://ChurchOfJediism.org/documents/ChurchOfJediism-UK-CHARTER.pdf . If it ever was a church it certainly is not now. It's a business that sells merchandise with it's logo like, for example, t-shirts and Jedi costumes. Legally it has no (zero) members - only customers.
Anyone may verify the copy of the Church of Jediism Limited Charter listed above is legitimate by purchasing a copy directly from Company House UK for one British pound. It may be purchased online with almost immediate delivery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.103.230 ( talk) 12:39, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
The reference to Shao-lin as a sort of inspiration and as a component of Jediism has been removed. You have no right to say anything other than you have taken INSPIRATION only, from Shao-lin.
If you are not Buddhist, do not live the Holy Vows, especially celibacy and rejection of intoxicants, among all others, you cannot claim Jediism as a form of Buddhism. Shao-lin was the epitomy of Buddhist spirituality in China before the Communist government repressed it into non-existence.
While I commend those who look toward Shao-lin for ideals, you should not disgrace the memory of Shao-lin in this way. Do you have any conception of how many DIED trying to save the Temple? Do you know how many died subsequently, fleeing for their lives? 75.21.112.60 ( talk) 14:14, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
"Jediism is not the same as that which is portrayed within the Star Wars Saga by George Lucas and Lucasfilm LTD. George Lucas' Jedi™ are fictional characters that exist within a literary and cinematic universe. The Jedi™ discussed within this website refer to factual people within this world that live or lived their lives according to Jediism, of which we recognize and work together as a community to both cultivate and celebrate. Jedi™ Apprentices, Knights, Commanders, Scholars, Masters, Scribes and High Councilors embrace Jediism as a real living, breathing religion, and sincerely strive to seek out and emulate real life examples of Jediism in the long rich history of mankind. Jediism bases less of its focus on myth and fiction, and more upon those real life examples of Jediism.
The history of the path of Jediism traverses thought which is well over 5,000 years old. It shares many themes embraced in Hinduism, Confucianism, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Stoicism, Catholicism, Taoism, Shinto, Modern Mysticism, the Way of the Shaolin Monks, the Knight's Code of Chivalry and the Samurai Warriors. We recognize that many times the answers to mankind's problems comes from within the purified hearts of genuine seekers of truth. Theology, philosophy and religious doctrine can facilitate this process, but we believe that it would be a futile exercise for any belief system to claim to hold all the answers to all the serious questions posed to seekers of truth in the 21st century. Jediism may help facilitate this process, yet we also acknowledge that it is up to the true believer who applies the universal truths inherent within Jediism to find the answers they seek." [Emphasis mine.]
Retrieved 25/OCTOBER/2010 at: http://www.jediism.org/
I bring this to the attention of the talk page here--this has a few silly statements, but I am offended by the reference to the FICTIONAL "Way" of the Shao-lin monks. There is no "way" except the Middle Way of Buddhism. The Shao-lin have no other "way".
I will keep vigilant to see that this expression and reference to Shao-lin be used IN QUOTES, and that no other reference to a "Shao-lin Way" be referenced here. I feel very strongly about people who express beliefs that are unknown to them.
Anyone who practices Buddhism knows what the Shao-lin Order stood for and how the monastery operated--that is all. There is no more than that. 75.21.112.60 ( talk) 15:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:ResidentAnthropologist ResidentAnthropologist, I know it is you who keeps reverting my corrections to certain statements in the article. Post here, or get ready for trouble. Chzz has been asked to try to bring you to heel, but I know it won't work. 75.21.159.227 ( talk) 17:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
That may be true in the sense of bad wording, which I regret. However, I have not added anything of my own--as you have done. You know this. I have added nothing inaccurate, false or fictional. 75.21.159.227 ( talk) 17:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Chzz's reply to me on this subject: "Stop trying to add the same thing, and instead discuss it on Talk:Jediism, to establish a consensus. There is no rush. It takes more than one person to make an edit-war; just relax, and talk about it instead. Chzz ► 17:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)"
So there we are. He's going to be of no help, but I assure you, ResidentAnthropologist, that I am not going to allow your reversions of my improvements, nor will I allow you to brand me a vandal, which is what you are doing.
I post with all respect. I am not trying to begin Edit Wars here. But I think you are. Why do you not do as Chzz suggests, as I do? 75.21.159.227 ( talk) 17:25, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
"The issue was is you removed references in exchange for your own WP:OR. Thus was reverted The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 17:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)"
So I quote ResidentAnthropologist. Well R.A., I say in this topic section as I said above, I have not added anything erroneous, fictional or incorrect to the article, as you have. 75.21.159.227 ( talk) 17:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Whoops, my IP has fluctuated again...no matter, since I cannot change that if I wanted to do so.
Anyway, I am content with the content and wording of the article as it stands today. My apologies for any anger that cut through the issue: I was getting a bit tired of following YOUR rules and having everything reverted just the same.
As to the featured problem, the mention of the fictitious "Way of Shao-lin", as long as a source can be cited that Jediists believe in this, or some other source can be cited giving a definition of what this "Way" is, I'll be content.
If not, Shao-lin ought to be kept out of the issue. I've seen the 3 or 4 various Jedi groups and it is their standard line that they follow the Way of the Samurai, the Chivalric Code and the Way of Shao-lin. A standard motto line is not a reliable source in this instance unless you qualify it as such.
Also, from what I have learned, quite a few Jediists would be offended at being described as "nontheists". Quite a few of them are monotheistic.
In any case, R.A. and Chzz, I am calm, cooperating and open to whatever. Just practice what you preach, that is all I have ever asked. 75.21.155.253 ( talk) 15:04, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
The EL section persists in being a magnet for spam, essentially turning into a directory of various Jediism churches and groups. Although guideliness encourage linking to a separate directory, the list itself should not itself be a directory.
EL makes provisions to provide a link to a group/organization mentioned in an article; the sole link I've left -- to the UK Church of Jediism -- is to an organization that is, and whose members are, mentioned in a few spots in the article, so it seems appropriate to retain that link.
I propose
Feedback? I've WP:BOLDly taken the initiative to put the EL section into a state that reflects the above. -- EEMIV ( talk) 18:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
-- There are more than JUST the church of jediism, that have loyal followers, that believe in the philosophy and spirituality of the Force. Jediism ISN'T just the church of Jediism, there are many who are becoming legal religions in many areas. It is foolish, to think the the church of jediism, is all there is, without recognizing those that wholeheartedly believe in the Force, and the Energies of the universe. Other groups, and Non-Profit organizations should have their place in the External links section. So that those who wish to learn about Jediism, have an opportunity to get the full, complete scope of the subject. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Cypress24 (
talk •
contribs)
17:28, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
-- among Force Realists, and those that practice Jediism on a daily basis, a lot believe that the Church of Jediism and its "leader" is a joke, and a poor representation of the Jedi Community. The page is titled "Jediism". Therefore it should have references to the places, and groups that practice Jediism. If this was the "Church of Jediism" page, that would be a different story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cypress24 ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
-- I can see that there have been a few before me, that have wanted information on this page, that better describes Jediism. Though it seems, that those have all been deleted, or not taken seriously. To me, it seems that this is all about The church of Jediism, and not actually about Jediism in General. It seems as though this page is only for the farce of a group, and not what is really believed among Force Realists, and Jediism Practitioners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cypress24 ( talk • contribs) 18:44, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'd like to know who these reliable sources are that you refer to as. Cause all it would have taken prior is clicking on the said link of those other sites that at one time were listed to see if they were reputable or not. Clarify this for me please. I find this very disturbing as to why the one link on the article is considered a "reputable source" and the other links are not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xan09 ( talk • contribs) 21:48, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
-- First I have to say, that the "Sock Puppet accounts" are actual people stating their own beliefs... Second, Coelescere Covenant is a Jedi Church legally registered in the State of NE USA. How much more "objective" do You need. I am not sure the Church of Jediism is even legally a non-profit religious organization.
https://www.nebraska.gov/sos/corp/corps ... =&search=1
Secretary of State Account Number: 10134224 -- Cypress24 ( talk) 22:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cypress24 ( talk • contribs) 22:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Excuse me but I am the registered agent of Coelescere Covenant and a former minister of the United Methodist Church. I added information about the beliefs of jediism as they pertain to Coelescere Covenant which is a legally formed church in the State of Nebraska and which uses the registered trademark of "The Jedi Way." This information was deleted despite the fact that I provided references to outside sources (i.e. the Secretary of State of the State of Nebraska's website and an article in Force Realist magazine.). Why was this information removed? And, I have been registered with Wiki much longer than Cypress. Further I know Xan as well. They are different people. Why is Wiki so partisan in behalf of the Church of Jediism in England? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rivan Elan ( talk • contribs) 23:42, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I think you are in error. There is not only partisanship but outright hostility toward Jediism here. How convenient that the only sources you allow are those that put Jediism in an unfavorable light. So, there must be some legal recourse my organization can use. Perhaps you can provide me with the link to that policy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rivan Elan ( talk • contribs) 23:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
-Hmmm. It says in the COI policy that COI is strongly discouraged, which I can agree to in part. However this article provides only one aspect of information to the public and frankly the ones that would have a different option are in COI. But your policy does not state that COI posting of information and or links is a violation of TOS. All that has been expressed here is a want to expand the article in a balanced way. And to also provide searchers more then one link to express that this is not just based on one viewpoint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xan09 ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for Wikipedia to explain why COI additions are automatically removed when no member of Wikipedia staff does any reference on the COI edits. Nor is there any explanation if COI edits are in violation of Wikipedia TOS. Perhaps Wikipedia staff should answer these questions first? Xan09 ( talk) 17:36, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I'd also be entirely happy removing all External Links to these churches, and limiting it only to sites that coverage, commentary, etc. I'd assume those would instead make for References or Other reading links, but, *shrug*. -- EEMIV ( talk) 14:35, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
The fact section (the first section on the page) reads like it may be vandalism, or an attempt to promote a product. I don't know enough to say for sure, and won't change anything, but I thought I would mention it. "Jediism is one of the top 5 religions in the UK. Jediism uses the S3 Spyder III Arctic Laser as its official lightsaber." If this is true, citations should be provided. 99.231.34.79 ( talk) 17:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
It's clear that this is not an article about Jediism but about the Holyhead Church of Jediism and Daniel Morgan Jones. Two of the references are total junk. For instance, in the Asylum article it says "Jediism also known as Temple of the Jedi order" (sic) and that the Jones' founded Jediism. Both of those statements are blatantly false and a quick Google search and a visit to the Internet Archives / Wayback shows this. Yet the Jones' founded Jediism part stays in the reference while mention of Jediism also known as Temple Of The Jedi Order does not and attempts to add it are immediately reversed. This is clear bias and someone with an agenda is running the show here. Either change the article title to Holyhead Church of Jediism or delete it altogether. It is now legally Church of Jediism Limited, incorporated as a company limited by shares in June 2010. Go to http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/ and use the WebCheck service http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/info to search for Church of Jediism and the proof and verification is right there on the official UK government site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.103.230 ( talk) 22:30, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I did read the law. They are organized as a for profit company not as a company limited by guarantee which is what non profits do. I even paid my one pound to get a copy of the charter and there is only one share of stock and one stockholder (Daniel Morgan Jones) and no allowance for other members nor is there any of the required charitable purposes statements required to be a charity. I have a law degree and you are clearly on a biased agenda to promote Jones and his organization. Once again: Why is it OK to repeat the Jones founded Jediism part of the Asylum article but not the part above it that says Jediism Also Known As Temple of the Jedi Order? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.103.230 ( talk) 23:32, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
In recent days, an external link to the Temple of the Jedi Order has been added and removed by a number of Wiki users. Could you please provide a valid reason as to why this link should stay in the External Links section of this article? The organisation is not mentioned in the article a great deal. Thanks. Kai Tatsu ( talk) 17:51, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
This link has some interesting content article on the Djedi
A few places say Lucas chose the name Jedi not randomly but with the ancient order of the Djedi in mind. These Djedi couldn't not have been involved in the "Raising of the Djed" ritual, involving the transmission of serpent ("Dj") energy up the Djed, meaning "the force" is the same thing Hindus call Kundalini. So...how much of this ties in with what today's serious Jedis are tuning in to? Find out, NOW!! Soup up the article with your discoveries, feed our minds!! GO!!! 2.99.217.102 ( talk) 20:45, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
hello,
can anyone tell what are the source of this page?
martijn (dutch) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.58.144.30 ( talk) 19:36, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I have to say that I have some concerns about using About.com as a source, especially multiple times. In this case, the "guide" (which is nothing more than a freelance writer) doesn't really appear to be an authority and makes a vague assertion of Star Wars materials being the source, but not specifying them. Isn't there a better source? Niteshift36 ( talk) 20:24, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
What the heck happened to this page? I swear there used to be like, 30 references and a huuge discussion page? What idiot has removed all this, and nominated the page for deletion? Kai Tatsu ( talk) 13:49, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Added external link to TempleOfTheJediOrder.org, and Hopefully we can add more sites dedicated to Jediism —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.156.106.66 ( talk) 15:55, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
can you tell me please why templeofthejediorder was removed?, thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jejano ( talk • contribs) 16:11, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks- Can we add relevant info in to the article itself? since Templeofthejediorder.org is one of the first jediism churchs, and is active, we like to have part in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jejano ( talk • contribs) 17:00, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Sure yes, we have. You are managing the wole article, or just monitoring ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jejano ( talk • contribs) 18:07, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Look who's talking. I traced the issues with the external links back to you Syrthiss, what happened with the rest of the article, I don't know, but if there is one thing WP:EL stipulates, it's that you should not give too much weight to one side of the story, and removing every external link except the UK church does just that. Congrats on ruining this article some more, as if the usual UK Church vandals weren't enough. 86.20.145.83 ( talk) 02:50, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to start editing this article again and will use primary sources according to WP:PRIMARY. I'll quickly reiterate what this means here in case people can't read wikipedia policy but wish to add primary references to the article: NO INTERPRETATION of the primary source, unless there is a secondary source to back it up. Preferably back primary sources with secondary sources, or other, clearly unrelated primary sources. 86.20.150.77 ( talk) 13:50, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Whoever wrote the definition of Jediism as a "UFO religion" made a very insulting generalization and cited an obscure sociologist article in an obscure publication as their source. As a neutral editor and person interested in learning about Jediism, I did the research myself and found it is NOT a UFO religion and find that type of description would be very insulting, almost hate-speech, toward it's followers. Peace, Whytehorse14 ( talk) 10:12, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
I am a Third Opinion Wikipedian. I'm here to note that I've removed a request for a Third Opinion on this article because the only specific dispute, about the UFO religion matter, appears to be resolved. The balance of the request was more a complaint about general article quality/point of view and user conduct, rather than a dispute between two specific editors. As such the remainder of the request is not within the scope of the Third Opinion project. Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 16:19, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
I tried to add it.
Or maybe something like this... According to most physicists, there's a Higgs field that is everywhere. The elusive Higgs particle would be the carrier of that field, interacting with all the other particles, "sort of the way a Jedi knight in Star Wars is the carrier of the "force", as National Geographic eloquently put it when the Large Hadron Collider was being built. Or like Obi Wan said, "the Force surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together." −
Whytehorse14 ( talk) 06:09, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
I do not see any need to tag the whole article on the sayso of one single purpose account. If there are any genuine concerns in the article they should be discussed here and dealt with individually.-- Charles ( talk) 10:05, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
The correct singular and plural for Jedi is Jedi & Sith is Sith. ~EgyptKEW9~ <Star Wars> — Preceding unsigned comment added by EgyptKEW9 ( talk • contribs) 18:24, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
How have we never used these sources: [1] and [2] Time magazine is about as "reliable source" as we're going to get. Niteshift36 ( talk) 19:07, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Does it? Just seems like a bastardised form of Taoism, with some Buddhism and Shinto thrown in for good measure.-- MacRùsgail ( talk) 16:18, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
"Jedi" has been a legal religion in several countries for years. I remember hearing about the census Jedi movement, and payed no attention. It was a funny joke. Around 2006-2008, I remember the news mentioning that Jedi had become a legal religion, and facepalmed. From what I remember of discussing it at Gamefaqs, at the time, you needed a petition with many signitures of other "members" supporters or witnesses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.166.9.146 ( talk) 11:47, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
It relates to Star Wars Jedi, not to Jediism... 82.16.58.234 ( talk) 01:36, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Far better source from about.com:
http://altreligion.about.com/od/beliefsandcreeds/a/jedi_teachings.htm
82.16.58.234 (
talk)
01:44, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
The "Jediism" article boils down to a lot of context-setting (that it's mostly a census joke but some people take it a bit more seriously), a few lines about what the religion consists of, and some religious discrimination claimed by a couple of followers. "Jedi census phenomenon" has a lot more of the first and some more of the third (including stuff about the Incitement to Religious Hatred Bill and "UN Interstellar Day of Tolerance" which isn't mentioned in the Jediism article).
It seems clearer to present all this as a single "Jediism" article, describing the census campaign, the apparently very small minority who profess to take the religion seriously, and the legal fallout of that minority claiming religious persecution using the census results to bolster their argument. (From the sources given, the "Jediism" religion does not predate the census campaign.) -- McGeddon ( talk) 08:53, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
An IP editor has twice removed content hooking the Jediism notions into events/coverage in New Zealand. I have reverted the removal, since there's nothing about this subject that ties it solely to e.g. the UK (where most of the coverage/hooplah seems to focus). Per WP:BRD, I've reverted the excising editor's edits and am putting a nudge here to offer better explanation for removing the content beyond the limitations of what an edit summary provides. -- EEMIV ( talk) 05:51, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
I am the IP editor. My first revision, 566381824, removed "as a result of a tongue-in-cheek email campaign", because in 2012, in the UK, there was no tongue in cheek email campaign. There was a tongue in cheek email campaign in new zealand in 2001, which we can assume spread to the UK (although I'm not sure this is exactly true, and if it were to be said, with supporting references, it should be said in the census phenomenon article). My second revision, 566383438, removed some irrelevant text about the census phenomenon and the way the australian and new zealand statistics authorities handled it. (it is the "history" section of the "Jediism" article after all. clearly irrelevant). It is true however that Jediism became known after the census phenomenon, as some people(writers, journalists) have since looked at it from a genuine religion perspective. I left this in however it MAY be OR/unrelated. I also removed Possamai, while it is true he did (quickly it seems) research Jediism, I fail to see what this fact has to do with Jediism's history. If possamai shaped Jediism's history in anyway, that's what should be put down (with refs). I removed the UK church of Jediism line, because while it seems true, the UK church is: not the first jedi church (there are at least to I can think of that precede them), and to their own admission, they "cashed in" on the census phenomenon. No information I can find about this church indicates that they have any clergy or conduct "regular church business". As such I feel they are irrelevant to Jediism history, and should probably be mentioned in the census phenomenon article instead. Also, the way it is written, it seems that Daniel and Barney Jones founded the church of Jediism in 2008 because they believed Jediism was an official religion, a claim that is not substantiated by the reference provided (and therefore is OR and may not even be good enough for the census phenomenon article). My third revision, 566384092, removed "although the majority of respondents are assumed to have claimed the faith as a joke." because the reference provided makes this claim about the new zealand 2001 census, not the England and Wales 2012 census, as the reference itself was created in 2002.... 82.16.58.234 ( talk) 04:56, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Should these not be included on the page? http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/doctrine-of-the-order
Other relgious articles have their basic tenets listed. 62.255.122.23 ( talk) 20:03, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Why are we using the picture of a Star Wars sticker laying on the ground? What does that have to do with Jediism and how does it enhance this article? If we continue the premise that Jediism is not just a fictional on-screen order, then how is a sticker saying that a puppet loves you helping? Niteshift36 ( talk) 14:03, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
The difference is that the one you compared to in the UK has actually received some coverage by reliable third party sources. The one in Texas is being sourced that it exists by a govt. record of filing for tax exempt status and a mention on a single page of a book. It merely proves they exist, which isn't in dispute. That they are notable enough to be mentioned is in dispute. Is there any other coverage of this temple besides the mere mention in a book? Have they done anything besides exist and publish a pamphlet? Niteshift36 ( talk) 12:31, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Here is a list of articles that Temple of the Jedi Order has been mentioned in: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-21844467 http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/03/25/marry-you-i-will-jedi-strike-back-against-church-on-weddings http://www.lejournalinternational.fr/Jediism-in-the-name-of-the-Father-and-of-the-Son-and-of-the-Holy-Light-Saber_a799.html http://columbianewsservice.com/2013/05/jedis-not-so-far-far-away-after-all/ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2465445/Jediism-THOUSANDS-believe-religion-based-Star-Wars-franchise.html http://www.details.com/culture-trends/critical-eye/201311/star-wars-religion-church-of-jedi http://www.tryangle.fr/jai-rencontre-un-vrai-jedi-francais-et-on-a-parle-de-la-force There are a further four articles that mention the Temple of the Jedi Order in passing which I did not link here. Why are these not listed? Because as you probably well know this page has had a lot of editing, sometimes maliciously so, and having more than one line is trying not to encourage people to vandalise it.( Bdk84 ( talk) 14:31, 11 June 2014 (UTC))
Please would you add the reference to Church of Jedism
http://www.churchofjediism.org.uk/
Thanx
And new article on BBC website could be popped in about Jedism and world-wide numbers
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29753530
Thanx for helping:) Veryscarymary ( talk) 19:12, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
->
Is it worth listing the 21 maxims and 16 teachings? I can't find any sources except for the Temple of the Jedi Order though. Thanks, cmɢʟee⎆ τaʟκ 12:53, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Coruscant ( talk) 14:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC) 'Jediism' is not what it is called, it's simply 'Jedi'. e.g "I am a Jedi" i.e "I'm a follower of the Jedi religion."
Deleted content:
The UK Church of Jediism
Brothers Daniel and Barney Jones founded the UK Church of Jediism in 2008 [1]. The Church is located in Holyhead, Angelsey, where they regularly hold meetings. According to Daniel Jones (Founder), the Church offers lessons on the Force, Lightsaber training and Meditation techniques.
The UK Church of Jediism is looked upon as the headquarters of Jediism by some.
Churches and other organizations have nothing to do on this page, and I even doubt such a thing has anything to do in wikipedia AT ALL. (and just reading their article for 5 seconds I already found LIES on it). The fact is, it may be looked upon as HQ for some, it is looked upon as a complete joke by many, and a source of shame for others, and claiming 500.000 members (even boosting the census results!) will not help in changing that. Ren ✉ 18:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
The UK Church of Jediism, I thought would have something to do with Jediism. May I ask you to list the lies you found in their article? Also, if you're saying Churches and 'other organizations' have nothing to do with Wikipedia, then why are their so many pages on churches and religious authorititive buildings - the Vatican, I name as one. Please reference your comment of 'it is looked upon as a complete joke by many' - I do not believe this for one second. The 500,000 members is a confirmed rounded number of the number of Jedi throughout the World. You may have seen the 390,000 figure, but I'd like to point out this is in Britain only. Please list a reason for deleting the section other than your own opinion. This is like saying 'An information page on Catholicism can't have a brief paragraph on the Vatican, as some non-believers think it is not the Headquaters for them. . Kai Tatsu ✉ 16.53 10 September 2009 (GMT)
Note that the Christianity article is far longer than this one, and mentions the vatican ONCE, as a country which has christianity as state religion. And that's keeping in mind the apostolic palace isn't a crumbling building in a welsh village. Ren ✉ 12:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Should it not be noted that most people who put 'Jedi' on their cencus forms did so as a joke? It is an alternative to writing 'N/A'
Are there any people who claim to practice this religion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elmmapleoakpine ( talk • contribs) 01:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Now, whatever the case may be as to whether this is a joke or not, if there is anyone for whom it is not a joke, I'm not sure that it could be called non-theist or pantheist. There are numerous references in the Star Wars canon that spell out that the Force seems to have a will (see for example Knights of the Old Republic II). It would perhaps be better to call it dualist theism of some sort. Then again, this all depends on whether or not the supposed Jedi-ist in question actually believe the Force in some sense exists in the real world or whether they are simply making a joke about religion in general. Corbmobile ( talk) 22:31, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Noone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.0.108.107 ( talk) 22:46, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Please do not post offensive comments on Wikipedia - this is a religion with over half a million followers world wide, according to 2001 censuses. Over 390,000 people in Britain alone claimed to be of the Jedi faith - making it the forth largest religion in Britain, if we're going by statistics from the 2001 census. Kai Tatsu ( talk) 21:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Not that I wish to offend anyone and I do believe in freedom of religion. but what evidence is there of Star Wars practiced other than the census’s than may or may not have been made buy followers of this new religion? And lastly I thought Star Wars was generally regarded as a work of fiction not fact. 28.11.09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.39.128.217 ( talk) 19:34, 28 November 2009 (UTC) There's lots of evidence given throughout the article. Also, Star Wars is considered to be an inspiring work of fiction in Jediism. Nothing more. Some Jedi don't actually like SW. Ren ✉ 10:51, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Please use this reliable source instead of Internet forums:
Possamai, A 2003 ‘Alternative Spiritualities, New Religious Movements and Jediism in Australia’ Australian Religion Studies Review 16 (2): 69-8
Shii (tock) 12:17, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
At the top of the article, it says, "Jediism is a non-theistic new religious movement[1][2][3] based upon the philosophical and spiritual ideas of the Jedi AS DEPICTED IN THE STAR WARS MEDIA.[4]" In the "Sides of the Force" section of this article, there is some question about whether or not a "dark side" of the force exists. I added this direct, sourced quote from a Star Wars movie: "In "The Empire Strikes Back" Master Yoda says to Luke, "Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the force. But beware the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side of the force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."[15] This quote was removed. Why? Is there another Jediism that is NOT based on the Star Wars movies? As anyone who has watched the movies knows, there IS a "dark side" of the force. 114.161.229.100 ( talk) 07:51, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Luke: “Is the dark side stronger?” Yoda: “No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.” Luke: “But how am I to know the good side from the bad?” Yoda: “You will know… when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.” 114.161.229.100 ( talk) 07:57, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
There were some references which were recently removed by another user. Jediism is not a religion present in Star Wars, therefore using Star Wars references is inappropriate. If you feel like talking about Star Wars Force and Star Wars Jedi, I suggest you edit Jedi and Star Wars instead. Ren ✉ 12:14, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Why was the material in parenthesis removed from the Philosophy section? Without this information, a reader may assume many incorrect things, such as that Jediism recognizes Jesus Christ as the son of God, or that Muhammed is the one true prophet: "It also shares basic ideals with many other religions (such as the existence of a struggle between Good and Evil in the universe, the importance of peace, the value of life, and service to others, for example), the Code of Chivalry, and spiritual aspects of some martial arts.[8]" 114.161.229.100 ( talk) 08:16, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm basing my opinion of Jediism on Jediism. You're basing your opinion of Jediism on Star Wars. If you feel like talking about Star Wars Force and Star Wars Jedi, I suggest you edit Jedi and Star Wars instead. Ren ✉ 12:16, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I suspect Shii removed some 'valid' sources. I also see the external websites list is enlarging, and some of them are already in the dmoz template I inserted some time ago. The sentence wasn't removed, only the OR ("such as the existence of a struggle between Good and Evil in the universe, the importance of peace, the value of life, and service to others, for example"). Also I would like to point out that religion articles usually use a lot of primary sources, simply because people tend to study their own religion in details. Secondary sources are very hard to find in Jediism as well. Ren ✉ 13:46, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Jediism. I would like to point out that wikipedia shouldn't be used as a forum, so I'm going to stop here. Ren ✉ 21:34, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
What are "real world" Jedi? Are there any references to support this line at the end of the first paragraph of the article? 114.161.229.100 ( talk) 05:59, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
No. It's not insulting. Fantasy Jedi can be found in Star Wars. Real world jedi can be found in the real world. Before the census "Jediism", the word, didn't exist. People just called it Jedi religion. The problem is that on the census, people replied "Jedi", "Jedi knight" or even "sith", causing the media to write all sorts of rubbish as usual. "Jediism" was coined to distance itself from that. Ren ✉ 15:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
the article doesn't mention "real world Jediism", but real world Jedi. There are real world Jedi, fake real-world Jedi, and fantasy Jedi. The Jedi word comes from fantasy Jedi. Jediism comes from that word. Jediism only exists in the real world, "Jedi" exist in both. Niteshift, please stop acting like a Hannigan. It gives us all a bad name. Ren ✉ 00:51, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I defend my contributions. You have been twisting my words every time I have answered your questions. This behaviour is well known in the Jedi community and usually attributed to a single individual, usually referred to as "Hannigan". But, as I said before, this is no place for such non-sense. Ren ✉ 03:00, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
A: I don't recall reverting any of your edits or ever taking part in an edit war. B: Maybe I am an expert on the topic C: So far your input has been a display of poor social skills towards me and the IP user. Ren ✉ 05:29, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
A: In which case stop claiming that I do not allow your input or that I said things I didn't. B: I do not disclose my identity on the internet. C: I am not lecturing. Ren ✉ 06:50, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
"Ren, you can't have it both ways. If Jediism has nothing to do with Star Wars, like you keep telling us" No, I don't keep telling anyone. I'm pretty sure I wrote 90% of that article, including the first sentence: "Jediism is a non-theistic new religious movement[1][2][3] based upon the philosophical and spiritual ideas of the Jedi as depicted in Star Wars media."
That's basically the issue you've had with me. I've assumed good faith long enough with you. I give up. I guess we met before? A quick look at your page suggests why we don't get along. Ren ✉ 09:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I, A: didn't say I was an expert, you, however, automatically assumed I wasn't. And B: Never objected to the removal of the quotation marks, but supported the inclusion of "real world" as I feel it clarifies the situation in a non-discriminative way. In the same fashion, I repeat, I didn't say Star Wars had nothing to do with Jediism and in fact previously wrote the opposite in the article. I suggest you read this talk page again. What you have been doing is called libel. Since you refuted my possible explanations for us not getting along, then I confirm, it IS indeed bad faith. You've had a go at me when we didn't even disagree on anything about the article... And I'm sure you know wikipedia policies at least as well as I do. Ren ✉ 12:33, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Fellas, this is getting old. I've I think made an edit to the article that removes the "real-world" text while retaining the underlying *ahem* uncited claim. Ren, the bit about libel is a shuffle toward a legal threat, which you don't want to escalate. Please, both of you, go find other things to edit for a bit other than this talk page and article. -- EEMIV ( talk) 14:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I apologize. There is no way I wish to make any kind of legal threats... However I find it particularly distasteful when people claim I said or wrote things I did not. It happened to me before, I didn't do anything about it and it tarnished my reputation, something hard to create and easy to destroy.
Niteshift: "I objected to the quotation marks....then you chimed in about how I was wrong" I didn't. My comment regarding that "real world" thing was aimed at the IP user, who claimed that using "real world" (with or without parenthesis) could somehow offend some people, by implying there would be fantasy Jedi(ists?) (in the real world? It doesnt make any sense to me anyway). I don't know why you thought it was directed at you, but I saw your reply as an attack and I became certain you were Hannigan, who enjoys taking the piss at me(and many others) that way... So I apologize. I should have been more generous with that "assume good faith" stuff.
Note: To set the record clear, as it has been my point all along, I do not claim that Jediism has absolutely nothing to do with Star Wars, and only wish for them to be treated as what they are: different subjects. Related, but different. I also never had any objections to the removal of the quotes around "real world", and still do not have any. That's all I want. really. I mean that. Sorry for the confusion and for contributing in the heated exchanges.
EEMIV: Why should we need to get a reference for "real life Jedi"? Why is it necessary to prove that there is a difference between a character in a movie and a real guy? Or that followers of Jediism are called Jedi? Do we need to prove that followers of christianity are called christians, and that some of them live in the "real world"[citation needed], not just as characters in american movies or an old "holy"[explain] book[verify claims]? Ren ✉ 17:11, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
? I'm not talking about the quotes, but about the "underlying *ahem* uncited claim". Wait. You were still going on about the pejorative meaning the quotation marks brought along?
Listen I'm getting really confused now, I'm going to edit it my way and someone, please tell me wtf is wrong with it because it's obviously not coming through to me. Ren ✉ 20:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Not even that, there weren't quotation marks on the article to begin with! Ren ✉ 17:21, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Wow, isn't this article going backwards? I added all kinds of references (numbers of people claiming "Jedi" as their religion on census forms by country, basis of the idea as discussed by George Lucas, quotes from Star Wars about the Force) but they've all been removed. Soon there will be no references left at all, and the article will be pure OR and personal opinion! 114.161.229.100 ( talk) 11:53, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I know. They are still in the history, I'm thinking about doing some kind of massive revert/merge. Ren ✉ 00:08, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I notice that it's getting SPAM. Somebody starts a site with one or three members yesterday and puts a link. That won't do. Br.John.Henry.Phelan ( talk) 02:30, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
The census issue is covered at Jedi census phenomenon and so is therefore off-topic for this article, which is covering the idea of it being followed as a genuine religion. There is no evidence to suggest that all these people were actually members of a real Jedi religion as covered at this article (indeed, the claim is quite absurd). Just because we have no good refs left, is not an argument for putting in more bad refs. You have to go and find good refs - or else it simply shouldn't be on Wikipedia. I already addressed my reasoning for removing the census numbers in the Talk page, so please address that before reverting. Mdwh ( talk) 01:41, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
We've had someone do some adding as well, John. I think those who believe in the UK church are trying to keep this page to themselves. >.> Setanaoko ( talk) 07:26, 8 October 2010 (JST)
Are religious people such as the UK Church or Christians being biased by devolving this article and destoying the work of those who have provided referenced contributions? Maybe they are scared that Jediism will become more popular than Christianity, maybe. Wikipedia must not be baised! One cannot remove the facts because they do not agree with the topic. Wikimedia should continue to provide the vehicle for article development and concept clarification, not article destruction. Either way the current state of this article is very poor and needs development, development which has repeatedly been removed.
The link for churchofthejedi.org has been removed by more than one editor. The IP address adding it is from the same area that the Church is located in, which is Spring Hill, Florida. Aside from the possible COI, it looks like the site is being added contrary to WP:EL, which advises against the adding of sites to promote them. The domain churchofthejedi.org was just registered on Jan. 16, 2010 by a man in.....Spring Hill, FL. I have to laugh when the home page included 2 things.....a poll that has a spelling error in the question and a big pay pal button to accept donations. Smelling a lot like spam. Niteshift36 ( talk) 04:05, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Though people tend to claim that the religion is officially recognised I do not know where this is true. In many US states one need do nothing but register a name to become a "religion". In Canada this process is far more complex. In Ontario one must have an existing organisation for 20 years and then can petition the Ministry of Commercial and Consumer Relations, register a "Book of Common Prayer" and fill out some forms to become an Officially Recognised Religion. The inclusion on the census form only reflects frequency of response, not official recognition.
Universal Life Church will ordain anyone, anywhere for whatever reason. For a dollar you can be a Saint or an Angel even. They hardly count as an authority.
I will point out, though, that although Star Wars is a work of fiction, Lucas was advised by Theologeon Joseph Campbell and the original series includes many Shinto, Buddhist, Hermetic and even Gurdjeiffian concepts. The idea of the Force can be seen in the works of many Hermeticists under the names Life-Power, One-Force, LVX, Limitless Light, and others. Though there may be an historical connection for the ideas expressed in Jediism it is still an NRM/Cult without legal foundation as a religion. (I use the word Cult in its anthropological sense, not in the sensationalist media sense.)
It would also be interesting to know whether or not there is a single "authority" or multiple sects. Also any quotes Lucas himself may have on the subject would be valuable as to the legitimacy of using the term Jedi in the first place. Frater SG ( talk) 03:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Lucas' trademarks doesn't cover religion topics. i would like to add that many countries do not recognize any religions, and as niteshift puts it, tax-exempt status (I don't know how it happens in the US) as a religious organization is the way to go. there are a few tax-exempt jedi organizations in and outside the US. One in Canada actually.
Ren
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05:17, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
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Considering that to the Jedi , using the 'Force' is the primary aspect of being a Jedi, this renders Jediism a thoroughly pointless exercise. Because the 'Force' does not exist. And so cannot be used. Chunner ( talk) 16:46, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Your point being? The Force does not exist. It is a fictional concept dreamt up by & in the fevered imagination of George Lucas. That is not a point of view. It is a FACT One cannot prove or disprove the exsistence of God or Gods? That is a point of view. One cannot prove or disprove the exsistence of the Force? Incorrect! False!! Wrong!!! The Jedi use the Force to effect drastic, tangible, physical real time changes in themselves, their immediate environment or opponents. Being aware of and being able to 'Use the Force' is the primary aspect, the be-all and end-all of being a Jedi. A Jedi who cannot use 'The Force' is not a Jedi. As there is no Force, There can be no Jedi. But, as you say, if it makes them happy, they should go for it. Yours, as always, and with a smile, Chunner ( talk) 16:46, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Secondly your basis that there is no Force is that George Lucas invented a 'ficitious concept.' This is not entirely true either. George Lucas adapted a pre-existing concept to a work of fiction. This is different from inventing a concept outright. He didn't dream up something like Dark Energy. He took from a rich history of human spirituality in crafting the Jedi order. The concept behind 'the Force,' he gave a new name and a new interpretation too, but that's what people have been doing throughout time. Humanity has known 'the Force' under many names. Tao, Spirit, Ether, Chi, Akasha, Divinity, God/dess energy, etc. Whatever that 'something' ultimately is, and whether or not it really exists, has been a matter of contention for quite some time. I suppose we might say, in lack of any means to verify the existance or not, that any spiritual pursuit is "all rather pointless" but too many people have found value in it for that to be an objectively true statement. Stryse ( talk) 02:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Trying to veiw spirituality or religious matters objectivley is a contradiction in point. Religion is a subjective subject! As a longstanding fan of Monty Python I have to say I've come here for the argument! It seems that you are attempting to gather all known spiritual & religious movements and ideas and palm them off as aspects of 'The Force'. This is a foolhardy attempt to justify the possible exsistence of a 'made for TV' pseudo-religion. Humanity has known 'The Force' under many names?...I'm afraid this is getting pretty creepy....Are you serious? If a member of the general public wishes to shop in Tesco's wearing a Hoodie and calling himself a Jedi, It's OK with me. But it don't make him one. Is All I'm Sayin! TTFN Chunner ( talk) 19:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC
AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE FORCE LIGHTNING!!!! THE FORCE LIGHTNING!!!!!! GASP!!! *CHOKE* COUGH!!!! THE DEADLY FORCE GRIP!!! THE DEADLY FORCE GRIIIPPP!!!! AAAARRRGGGHHHH! THE FORCE LIGHTNING!!!!! THE FORCE LIGHTNING!!!!!!!!! GASP!!! *CHOKE* COUGHhhhhhhhh................ TTFN Chunner ( talk) 19:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Incorrect! False!! Wrong!!!" Ok then, Please disprove its existence. 129.139.1.68 ( talk) 21:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Are You A Jedi or Sith? Are You A Force Sensitive? Can You 'USE' the 'FORCE'? No? That's because THE FORCE is a FICTIONAL, quasi pseudo scientific made-for-tv religion. It is practiced and used by FICTIONAL characters in FICTIONAL settings for FICTIONAL plot developments. Ok then? |
What is the relevance of this section, it doesn't even refer to Jediism but instead refers to the Matrix Memnoich ( talk) 18:27, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Some people decide to have some good-natured fun with a govenment census and merit an article as if it was all done in earnest? Ekwos ( talk) 03:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
The ones who were *just* having fun with the census aren't typically the ones involved in Jediism (or Jedi Realism). Which of course raises the point that just because census forms shows X number of people are Jedi, we can't really consider that number as accurate since its fairly well accepted that more than a few people filled out Jedi as part of the joke. Nevertheless, there are those who filled in that response with complete seriousness on their part. Any religion can look foolish in its infancy, but if they're serious about it, they'll eventually grow up into something only fools would say is foolish. :P
Of course this article doesn't do a very good job of exploring the wide diversity that is the Jedi movement. 24.205.194.2 ( talk) 23:41, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
I always beleived that Jediism is a parody religion. Please clarify why this is not put down as a parody religion, whereas other, apparently similarly foolish religions, such as FSMism are not, as it seems to be that Wikipedia is guility of non- impartiality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.152.71.65 ( talk) 13:54, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
No, this is not the point at all. You must supply citations or even simple links to websites pertaining to Jedi believers. For some, it is not a parody, though it is a misguided and silly pursuit. To include real-world Jedi influence, however, there must be real-world citations. What I find pitiful is that it takes a film to move people into the realm of enlightenment. Therefore, if you wish to flesh out this article properly, there should also be cited objections to the use of a bunch of film characters as the foundation of a religion. 75.21.144.68 ( talk) 16:57, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
It began in Australia, because they resented the census. They wanted to foul it up by putting Jedi in the religion box. It was never about "devout Jedis". There was no such move at the time. It began a bit later. 75.21.159.227 ( talk) 16:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
The former Church of Jediism is now Church of Jediism Limited - a for profit business.
The Holyhead UK Church of Jediism incorporated as a for profit business in June 2010. Their Charter says nothing about it being a church or engaging in religious or charitable activities but does say that all profits / dividends go to the sole owner - Daniel Morgan Jones. The corporations model limited by shares does not allow for members. Their legal name is now Church of Jediism Limited. A copy of the Charter is available at http://ChurchOfJediism.org/documents/ChurchOfJediism-UK-CHARTER.pdf . If it ever was a church it certainly is not now. It's a business that sells merchandise with it's logo like, for example, t-shirts and Jedi costumes. Legally it has no (zero) members - only customers.
Anyone may verify the copy of the Church of Jediism Limited Charter listed above is legitimate by purchasing a copy directly from Company House UK for one British pound. It may be purchased online with almost immediate delivery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.103.230 ( talk) 12:39, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
The reference to Shao-lin as a sort of inspiration and as a component of Jediism has been removed. You have no right to say anything other than you have taken INSPIRATION only, from Shao-lin.
If you are not Buddhist, do not live the Holy Vows, especially celibacy and rejection of intoxicants, among all others, you cannot claim Jediism as a form of Buddhism. Shao-lin was the epitomy of Buddhist spirituality in China before the Communist government repressed it into non-existence.
While I commend those who look toward Shao-lin for ideals, you should not disgrace the memory of Shao-lin in this way. Do you have any conception of how many DIED trying to save the Temple? Do you know how many died subsequently, fleeing for their lives? 75.21.112.60 ( talk) 14:14, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
"Jediism is not the same as that which is portrayed within the Star Wars Saga by George Lucas and Lucasfilm LTD. George Lucas' Jedi™ are fictional characters that exist within a literary and cinematic universe. The Jedi™ discussed within this website refer to factual people within this world that live or lived their lives according to Jediism, of which we recognize and work together as a community to both cultivate and celebrate. Jedi™ Apprentices, Knights, Commanders, Scholars, Masters, Scribes and High Councilors embrace Jediism as a real living, breathing religion, and sincerely strive to seek out and emulate real life examples of Jediism in the long rich history of mankind. Jediism bases less of its focus on myth and fiction, and more upon those real life examples of Jediism.
The history of the path of Jediism traverses thought which is well over 5,000 years old. It shares many themes embraced in Hinduism, Confucianism, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Stoicism, Catholicism, Taoism, Shinto, Modern Mysticism, the Way of the Shaolin Monks, the Knight's Code of Chivalry and the Samurai Warriors. We recognize that many times the answers to mankind's problems comes from within the purified hearts of genuine seekers of truth. Theology, philosophy and religious doctrine can facilitate this process, but we believe that it would be a futile exercise for any belief system to claim to hold all the answers to all the serious questions posed to seekers of truth in the 21st century. Jediism may help facilitate this process, yet we also acknowledge that it is up to the true believer who applies the universal truths inherent within Jediism to find the answers they seek." [Emphasis mine.]
Retrieved 25/OCTOBER/2010 at: http://www.jediism.org/
I bring this to the attention of the talk page here--this has a few silly statements, but I am offended by the reference to the FICTIONAL "Way" of the Shao-lin monks. There is no "way" except the Middle Way of Buddhism. The Shao-lin have no other "way".
I will keep vigilant to see that this expression and reference to Shao-lin be used IN QUOTES, and that no other reference to a "Shao-lin Way" be referenced here. I feel very strongly about people who express beliefs that are unknown to them.
Anyone who practices Buddhism knows what the Shao-lin Order stood for and how the monastery operated--that is all. There is no more than that. 75.21.112.60 ( talk) 15:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:ResidentAnthropologist ResidentAnthropologist, I know it is you who keeps reverting my corrections to certain statements in the article. Post here, or get ready for trouble. Chzz has been asked to try to bring you to heel, but I know it won't work. 75.21.159.227 ( talk) 17:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
That may be true in the sense of bad wording, which I regret. However, I have not added anything of my own--as you have done. You know this. I have added nothing inaccurate, false or fictional. 75.21.159.227 ( talk) 17:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Chzz's reply to me on this subject: "Stop trying to add the same thing, and instead discuss it on Talk:Jediism, to establish a consensus. There is no rush. It takes more than one person to make an edit-war; just relax, and talk about it instead. Chzz ► 17:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)"
So there we are. He's going to be of no help, but I assure you, ResidentAnthropologist, that I am not going to allow your reversions of my improvements, nor will I allow you to brand me a vandal, which is what you are doing.
I post with all respect. I am not trying to begin Edit Wars here. But I think you are. Why do you not do as Chzz suggests, as I do? 75.21.159.227 ( talk) 17:25, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
"The issue was is you removed references in exchange for your own WP:OR. Thus was reverted The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 17:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)"
So I quote ResidentAnthropologist. Well R.A., I say in this topic section as I said above, I have not added anything erroneous, fictional or incorrect to the article, as you have. 75.21.159.227 ( talk) 17:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Whoops, my IP has fluctuated again...no matter, since I cannot change that if I wanted to do so.
Anyway, I am content with the content and wording of the article as it stands today. My apologies for any anger that cut through the issue: I was getting a bit tired of following YOUR rules and having everything reverted just the same.
As to the featured problem, the mention of the fictitious "Way of Shao-lin", as long as a source can be cited that Jediists believe in this, or some other source can be cited giving a definition of what this "Way" is, I'll be content.
If not, Shao-lin ought to be kept out of the issue. I've seen the 3 or 4 various Jedi groups and it is their standard line that they follow the Way of the Samurai, the Chivalric Code and the Way of Shao-lin. A standard motto line is not a reliable source in this instance unless you qualify it as such.
Also, from what I have learned, quite a few Jediists would be offended at being described as "nontheists". Quite a few of them are monotheistic.
In any case, R.A. and Chzz, I am calm, cooperating and open to whatever. Just practice what you preach, that is all I have ever asked. 75.21.155.253 ( talk) 15:04, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
The EL section persists in being a magnet for spam, essentially turning into a directory of various Jediism churches and groups. Although guideliness encourage linking to a separate directory, the list itself should not itself be a directory.
EL makes provisions to provide a link to a group/organization mentioned in an article; the sole link I've left -- to the UK Church of Jediism -- is to an organization that is, and whose members are, mentioned in a few spots in the article, so it seems appropriate to retain that link.
I propose
Feedback? I've WP:BOLDly taken the initiative to put the EL section into a state that reflects the above. -- EEMIV ( talk) 18:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
-- There are more than JUST the church of jediism, that have loyal followers, that believe in the philosophy and spirituality of the Force. Jediism ISN'T just the church of Jediism, there are many who are becoming legal religions in many areas. It is foolish, to think the the church of jediism, is all there is, without recognizing those that wholeheartedly believe in the Force, and the Energies of the universe. Other groups, and Non-Profit organizations should have their place in the External links section. So that those who wish to learn about Jediism, have an opportunity to get the full, complete scope of the subject. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Cypress24 (
talk •
contribs)
17:28, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
-- among Force Realists, and those that practice Jediism on a daily basis, a lot believe that the Church of Jediism and its "leader" is a joke, and a poor representation of the Jedi Community. The page is titled "Jediism". Therefore it should have references to the places, and groups that practice Jediism. If this was the "Church of Jediism" page, that would be a different story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cypress24 ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
-- I can see that there have been a few before me, that have wanted information on this page, that better describes Jediism. Though it seems, that those have all been deleted, or not taken seriously. To me, it seems that this is all about The church of Jediism, and not actually about Jediism in General. It seems as though this page is only for the farce of a group, and not what is really believed among Force Realists, and Jediism Practitioners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cypress24 ( talk • contribs) 18:44, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'd like to know who these reliable sources are that you refer to as. Cause all it would have taken prior is clicking on the said link of those other sites that at one time were listed to see if they were reputable or not. Clarify this for me please. I find this very disturbing as to why the one link on the article is considered a "reputable source" and the other links are not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xan09 ( talk • contribs) 21:48, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
-- First I have to say, that the "Sock Puppet accounts" are actual people stating their own beliefs... Second, Coelescere Covenant is a Jedi Church legally registered in the State of NE USA. How much more "objective" do You need. I am not sure the Church of Jediism is even legally a non-profit religious organization.
https://www.nebraska.gov/sos/corp/corps ... =&search=1
Secretary of State Account Number: 10134224 -- Cypress24 ( talk) 22:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cypress24 ( talk • contribs) 22:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Excuse me but I am the registered agent of Coelescere Covenant and a former minister of the United Methodist Church. I added information about the beliefs of jediism as they pertain to Coelescere Covenant which is a legally formed church in the State of Nebraska and which uses the registered trademark of "The Jedi Way." This information was deleted despite the fact that I provided references to outside sources (i.e. the Secretary of State of the State of Nebraska's website and an article in Force Realist magazine.). Why was this information removed? And, I have been registered with Wiki much longer than Cypress. Further I know Xan as well. They are different people. Why is Wiki so partisan in behalf of the Church of Jediism in England? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rivan Elan ( talk • contribs) 23:42, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I think you are in error. There is not only partisanship but outright hostility toward Jediism here. How convenient that the only sources you allow are those that put Jediism in an unfavorable light. So, there must be some legal recourse my organization can use. Perhaps you can provide me with the link to that policy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rivan Elan ( talk • contribs) 23:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
-Hmmm. It says in the COI policy that COI is strongly discouraged, which I can agree to in part. However this article provides only one aspect of information to the public and frankly the ones that would have a different option are in COI. But your policy does not state that COI posting of information and or links is a violation of TOS. All that has been expressed here is a want to expand the article in a balanced way. And to also provide searchers more then one link to express that this is not just based on one viewpoint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xan09 ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for Wikipedia to explain why COI additions are automatically removed when no member of Wikipedia staff does any reference on the COI edits. Nor is there any explanation if COI edits are in violation of Wikipedia TOS. Perhaps Wikipedia staff should answer these questions first? Xan09 ( talk) 17:36, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I'd also be entirely happy removing all External Links to these churches, and limiting it only to sites that coverage, commentary, etc. I'd assume those would instead make for References or Other reading links, but, *shrug*. -- EEMIV ( talk) 14:35, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
The fact section (the first section on the page) reads like it may be vandalism, or an attempt to promote a product. I don't know enough to say for sure, and won't change anything, but I thought I would mention it. "Jediism is one of the top 5 religions in the UK. Jediism uses the S3 Spyder III Arctic Laser as its official lightsaber." If this is true, citations should be provided. 99.231.34.79 ( talk) 17:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
It's clear that this is not an article about Jediism but about the Holyhead Church of Jediism and Daniel Morgan Jones. Two of the references are total junk. For instance, in the Asylum article it says "Jediism also known as Temple of the Jedi order" (sic) and that the Jones' founded Jediism. Both of those statements are blatantly false and a quick Google search and a visit to the Internet Archives / Wayback shows this. Yet the Jones' founded Jediism part stays in the reference while mention of Jediism also known as Temple Of The Jedi Order does not and attempts to add it are immediately reversed. This is clear bias and someone with an agenda is running the show here. Either change the article title to Holyhead Church of Jediism or delete it altogether. It is now legally Church of Jediism Limited, incorporated as a company limited by shares in June 2010. Go to http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/ and use the WebCheck service http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/info to search for Church of Jediism and the proof and verification is right there on the official UK government site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.103.230 ( talk) 22:30, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I did read the law. They are organized as a for profit company not as a company limited by guarantee which is what non profits do. I even paid my one pound to get a copy of the charter and there is only one share of stock and one stockholder (Daniel Morgan Jones) and no allowance for other members nor is there any of the required charitable purposes statements required to be a charity. I have a law degree and you are clearly on a biased agenda to promote Jones and his organization. Once again: Why is it OK to repeat the Jones founded Jediism part of the Asylum article but not the part above it that says Jediism Also Known As Temple of the Jedi Order? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.103.230 ( talk) 23:32, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
In recent days, an external link to the Temple of the Jedi Order has been added and removed by a number of Wiki users. Could you please provide a valid reason as to why this link should stay in the External Links section of this article? The organisation is not mentioned in the article a great deal. Thanks. Kai Tatsu ( talk) 17:51, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
This link has some interesting content article on the Djedi
A few places say Lucas chose the name Jedi not randomly but with the ancient order of the Djedi in mind. These Djedi couldn't not have been involved in the "Raising of the Djed" ritual, involving the transmission of serpent ("Dj") energy up the Djed, meaning "the force" is the same thing Hindus call Kundalini. So...how much of this ties in with what today's serious Jedis are tuning in to? Find out, NOW!! Soup up the article with your discoveries, feed our minds!! GO!!! 2.99.217.102 ( talk) 20:45, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
hello,
can anyone tell what are the source of this page?
martijn (dutch) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.58.144.30 ( talk) 19:36, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I have to say that I have some concerns about using About.com as a source, especially multiple times. In this case, the "guide" (which is nothing more than a freelance writer) doesn't really appear to be an authority and makes a vague assertion of Star Wars materials being the source, but not specifying them. Isn't there a better source? Niteshift36 ( talk) 20:24, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
What the heck happened to this page? I swear there used to be like, 30 references and a huuge discussion page? What idiot has removed all this, and nominated the page for deletion? Kai Tatsu ( talk) 13:49, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Added external link to TempleOfTheJediOrder.org, and Hopefully we can add more sites dedicated to Jediism —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.156.106.66 ( talk) 15:55, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
can you tell me please why templeofthejediorder was removed?, thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jejano ( talk • contribs) 16:11, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks- Can we add relevant info in to the article itself? since Templeofthejediorder.org is one of the first jediism churchs, and is active, we like to have part in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jejano ( talk • contribs) 17:00, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Sure yes, we have. You are managing the wole article, or just monitoring ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jejano ( talk • contribs) 18:07, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Look who's talking. I traced the issues with the external links back to you Syrthiss, what happened with the rest of the article, I don't know, but if there is one thing WP:EL stipulates, it's that you should not give too much weight to one side of the story, and removing every external link except the UK church does just that. Congrats on ruining this article some more, as if the usual UK Church vandals weren't enough. 86.20.145.83 ( talk) 02:50, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to start editing this article again and will use primary sources according to WP:PRIMARY. I'll quickly reiterate what this means here in case people can't read wikipedia policy but wish to add primary references to the article: NO INTERPRETATION of the primary source, unless there is a secondary source to back it up. Preferably back primary sources with secondary sources, or other, clearly unrelated primary sources. 86.20.150.77 ( talk) 13:50, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Whoever wrote the definition of Jediism as a "UFO religion" made a very insulting generalization and cited an obscure sociologist article in an obscure publication as their source. As a neutral editor and person interested in learning about Jediism, I did the research myself and found it is NOT a UFO religion and find that type of description would be very insulting, almost hate-speech, toward it's followers. Peace, Whytehorse14 ( talk) 10:12, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
I am a Third Opinion Wikipedian. I'm here to note that I've removed a request for a Third Opinion on this article because the only specific dispute, about the UFO religion matter, appears to be resolved. The balance of the request was more a complaint about general article quality/point of view and user conduct, rather than a dispute between two specific editors. As such the remainder of the request is not within the scope of the Third Opinion project. Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 16:19, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
I tried to add it.
Or maybe something like this... According to most physicists, there's a Higgs field that is everywhere. The elusive Higgs particle would be the carrier of that field, interacting with all the other particles, "sort of the way a Jedi knight in Star Wars is the carrier of the "force", as National Geographic eloquently put it when the Large Hadron Collider was being built. Or like Obi Wan said, "the Force surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together." −
Whytehorse14 ( talk) 06:09, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
I do not see any need to tag the whole article on the sayso of one single purpose account. If there are any genuine concerns in the article they should be discussed here and dealt with individually.-- Charles ( talk) 10:05, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
The correct singular and plural for Jedi is Jedi & Sith is Sith. ~EgyptKEW9~ <Star Wars> — Preceding unsigned comment added by EgyptKEW9 ( talk • contribs) 18:24, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
How have we never used these sources: [1] and [2] Time magazine is about as "reliable source" as we're going to get. Niteshift36 ( talk) 19:07, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Does it? Just seems like a bastardised form of Taoism, with some Buddhism and Shinto thrown in for good measure.-- MacRùsgail ( talk) 16:18, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
"Jedi" has been a legal religion in several countries for years. I remember hearing about the census Jedi movement, and payed no attention. It was a funny joke. Around 2006-2008, I remember the news mentioning that Jedi had become a legal religion, and facepalmed. From what I remember of discussing it at Gamefaqs, at the time, you needed a petition with many signitures of other "members" supporters or witnesses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.166.9.146 ( talk) 11:47, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
It relates to Star Wars Jedi, not to Jediism... 82.16.58.234 ( talk) 01:36, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Far better source from about.com:
http://altreligion.about.com/od/beliefsandcreeds/a/jedi_teachings.htm
82.16.58.234 (
talk)
01:44, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
The "Jediism" article boils down to a lot of context-setting (that it's mostly a census joke but some people take it a bit more seriously), a few lines about what the religion consists of, and some religious discrimination claimed by a couple of followers. "Jedi census phenomenon" has a lot more of the first and some more of the third (including stuff about the Incitement to Religious Hatred Bill and "UN Interstellar Day of Tolerance" which isn't mentioned in the Jediism article).
It seems clearer to present all this as a single "Jediism" article, describing the census campaign, the apparently very small minority who profess to take the religion seriously, and the legal fallout of that minority claiming religious persecution using the census results to bolster their argument. (From the sources given, the "Jediism" religion does not predate the census campaign.) -- McGeddon ( talk) 08:53, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
An IP editor has twice removed content hooking the Jediism notions into events/coverage in New Zealand. I have reverted the removal, since there's nothing about this subject that ties it solely to e.g. the UK (where most of the coverage/hooplah seems to focus). Per WP:BRD, I've reverted the excising editor's edits and am putting a nudge here to offer better explanation for removing the content beyond the limitations of what an edit summary provides. -- EEMIV ( talk) 05:51, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
I am the IP editor. My first revision, 566381824, removed "as a result of a tongue-in-cheek email campaign", because in 2012, in the UK, there was no tongue in cheek email campaign. There was a tongue in cheek email campaign in new zealand in 2001, which we can assume spread to the UK (although I'm not sure this is exactly true, and if it were to be said, with supporting references, it should be said in the census phenomenon article). My second revision, 566383438, removed some irrelevant text about the census phenomenon and the way the australian and new zealand statistics authorities handled it. (it is the "history" section of the "Jediism" article after all. clearly irrelevant). It is true however that Jediism became known after the census phenomenon, as some people(writers, journalists) have since looked at it from a genuine religion perspective. I left this in however it MAY be OR/unrelated. I also removed Possamai, while it is true he did (quickly it seems) research Jediism, I fail to see what this fact has to do with Jediism's history. If possamai shaped Jediism's history in anyway, that's what should be put down (with refs). I removed the UK church of Jediism line, because while it seems true, the UK church is: not the first jedi church (there are at least to I can think of that precede them), and to their own admission, they "cashed in" on the census phenomenon. No information I can find about this church indicates that they have any clergy or conduct "regular church business". As such I feel they are irrelevant to Jediism history, and should probably be mentioned in the census phenomenon article instead. Also, the way it is written, it seems that Daniel and Barney Jones founded the church of Jediism in 2008 because they believed Jediism was an official religion, a claim that is not substantiated by the reference provided (and therefore is OR and may not even be good enough for the census phenomenon article). My third revision, 566384092, removed "although the majority of respondents are assumed to have claimed the faith as a joke." because the reference provided makes this claim about the new zealand 2001 census, not the England and Wales 2012 census, as the reference itself was created in 2002.... 82.16.58.234 ( talk) 04:56, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Should these not be included on the page? http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/doctrine-of-the-order
Other relgious articles have their basic tenets listed. 62.255.122.23 ( talk) 20:03, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Why are we using the picture of a Star Wars sticker laying on the ground? What does that have to do with Jediism and how does it enhance this article? If we continue the premise that Jediism is not just a fictional on-screen order, then how is a sticker saying that a puppet loves you helping? Niteshift36 ( talk) 14:03, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
The difference is that the one you compared to in the UK has actually received some coverage by reliable third party sources. The one in Texas is being sourced that it exists by a govt. record of filing for tax exempt status and a mention on a single page of a book. It merely proves they exist, which isn't in dispute. That they are notable enough to be mentioned is in dispute. Is there any other coverage of this temple besides the mere mention in a book? Have they done anything besides exist and publish a pamphlet? Niteshift36 ( talk) 12:31, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Here is a list of articles that Temple of the Jedi Order has been mentioned in: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-21844467 http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/03/25/marry-you-i-will-jedi-strike-back-against-church-on-weddings http://www.lejournalinternational.fr/Jediism-in-the-name-of-the-Father-and-of-the-Son-and-of-the-Holy-Light-Saber_a799.html http://columbianewsservice.com/2013/05/jedis-not-so-far-far-away-after-all/ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2465445/Jediism-THOUSANDS-believe-religion-based-Star-Wars-franchise.html http://www.details.com/culture-trends/critical-eye/201311/star-wars-religion-church-of-jedi http://www.tryangle.fr/jai-rencontre-un-vrai-jedi-francais-et-on-a-parle-de-la-force There are a further four articles that mention the Temple of the Jedi Order in passing which I did not link here. Why are these not listed? Because as you probably well know this page has had a lot of editing, sometimes maliciously so, and having more than one line is trying not to encourage people to vandalise it.( Bdk84 ( talk) 14:31, 11 June 2014 (UTC))
Please would you add the reference to Church of Jedism
http://www.churchofjediism.org.uk/
Thanx
And new article on BBC website could be popped in about Jedism and world-wide numbers
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29753530
Thanx for helping:) Veryscarymary ( talk) 19:12, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
->
Is it worth listing the 21 maxims and 16 teachings? I can't find any sources except for the Temple of the Jedi Order though. Thanks, cmɢʟee⎆ τaʟκ 12:53, 14 December 2015 (UTC)