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I think the following important facts have been ommited. 1. The philosophical project of Btsong-kha-pa. 2. The fact that he did not see himself as starting a new school, i.e. he never intended to found a school. 3. His controversial vision of Manjusri. 4. Shouldn't there be links to his main students.
Also, in an encylopedia I think sanskrit and Tibetan words should be spelled correctly. I have taken care of the Tibetan ones but the Sanskrit ones still need help. -- Nathan hill 10:01, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
[1] Site of Kadampa Buddhism Der Ausdruck “Freudvolles Land” in der fünften Zeile ist der Name des Reinen Landes von Buddha Maitreya, das in Sanskrit als “Tushita” oder im Tibetischen als “Ganden” bekannt ist. Nach seinem Tod ging Je Tsongkhapa an diesen Ort.
The "criticism" section as it stands seems more to engaging in the (rather extensive) disputation regarding Tsongkhapa's philosophic views than explaining or reporting on them. If someone doesn't fix it soon, I think it should simply be omitted. Perhaps parts of it can be resurrected in amore general section on Tsongkhapa's views (which is lacking, as noted elsewhere in this page). Also, citing one source that accuses Tsongkhapa of succumbing to a demon pretty clearly crosses the line from objective reporting into insult and disputation. Finally, the standards for selecting and citing references seems pretty weak in this section, as does the general logical structure. djlewis ( talk) 20:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
@ VictoriaGrayson:My primary critique of the criticism section was that is was (and again is) disputatious rather than neutral -- it's directly propagating criticisms by some of Tsongkhapa's rivals of his views and the quality of his life and thinking (most notably mistaking a demon for Manjushri, but others things as well). So it not NPOV.
And I don't understand why it's importnat that TK is dead. I don't think that because a person is dead he is open to such one-sided and bizarre (yes, bizarre) attacks, particularly when such disputations are proxies for ongoing contemporary controversies in Tibetan Buddhism which are now worldwide in scope. As for being poorly sourced, I don't think that one rival's personal, unsupported assertion that Tsongkhapa was influenced by a demon counts as a neutral or scholarly source. To be neutral, you'd have to cite scholarship that addresses the evidence and concludes based on that evidence that yes, there is a plausible case that Tsongkhapa mistook a demon for Manjushri (which I doubt there is). In fact, the real news here is not about TK but about Gorampa.
As for Jinpa's citation, Jinpa is one of the most vociferous admirers of Tsongkhapa's thought today, and his remarks are taken out of context - so that too is poorly sourced unless embedded in an larger piece that addresses, at least, why a mystic vision is an issue. I can see a critical section on Tsongkhapa's views, but a NPOV one -- this isn't even close. I would like to remove it and encourage someone, if they like, to write a NPOV section instead -- I haven't the time. It might start like --
TK's thought has been enormously influential in Tibet and now worldwide. The important points are blah blah blah. Criticisms of TK come from other Tibetan schools, and has at times grown so heated that one dissenting Sakya scholar has even accused him of blah blah demon blah, an isolated and bizarre assertion, even by Tibetan standards, against one of the most influential figures in Tibetan history.
But as for many other important thinkers IMHO TK deserves a separate article on his views and thought, with pros and cons. But the section as it stands is way off base. Before I remove it again, someone please tell me how we resolve such a a back-and-forth dispute? djlewis ( talk) 19:10, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm afraid the critics may have a point here. I also get the impression thet the demons are over-emphasized, to give the impression that Tsoghkhapa was some weirdo. I'd be interested what was novel about his interpretations, and why the demons were necessary to lend credibility to his views. He's an important figure in Tibetan Buddhism, so I'd be interested in his "development". And the DL-quote is indeed too long. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:44, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan:Just to explain. Tsongkhapa and Gorampa are two major Tibetan philosophers of different schools who disagree on a number of crucial points. Tsongkhapa claimed to have many mystical visions of Manjushri, the bodhisattva/buddha of wisdom, from whom he obtained many of his philosophical insights. Besides disputing Tsongkhapa philosophically, at one point Gorampa apparently stated that Tsongkhapa must have been in communion not with Manjushri but with a demon, and therefore to have been spreading demonic falsehoods instead of truth. Who knows what he meant, especially from the point of view of the modern Western naturalist zeitgeist, but there is apparently no evidence that anyone else ever publicly agreed with Gorampa on this calumny. Given the prominence of Tsongkhapa's views in Tibet, it is in effect accusing the major school and the majority of Tibetans of following a demonic line. Obviously this is hyperbole, and has no bearing on the philosophical issues presumably under discussion here. BTW, most Tibetans, even today, accept the supernatural, including demons, so it's not an issue of being a weirdo, except insofar as they are all weirdos from the Western perspective.
The subtext is that the Tibetans take their philosophy approximately the way Americans take baseball, and get equally heated. It's like the Red Sox vs the Yankees, and Tsongkhapa is a Yankee, in fact, Babe Ruth. My guess is that this whole section on Tsongkhapa was created by "fans" of one or more schools that oppose Tsongkhapa's, to cast doubt on his reliability, like Red Sox fans pointing at Babe Ruth's beer belly and hard drinking. But it's of very low quality by all standards, including NPOV.
I'm very busy, but give me a few days and I will construct a decent section on Tsongkhapa's academic views -- without the thoroughly irrelevant demon accusation (which I'd like to remove immediately). djlewis ( talk) 05:39, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
OK, here's my take on this article: It is not particularly well-written and would very much benefit from more sourcing, there is a great deal of material with no footnoting at all. If we were, for example, to submit this article as a potential GA, it would be rejected out of hand. I also take issue with the sections that have long quotations but no real summary of the analysis (and said analysis or summary would need to be sourced). So in effect, the article has some very superficial sections that need work. The work in question probably needs a bit more assessment (in other words, some sort assessment along the lines of "on one hand, this writer says A, but on the other hand another writer says B, and analysis of expert C says that A is kind of right abut B is also kind of right.") That said, Wisdom Publications is an acceptable mainstream publisher of Buddhist works, and it appears to publish material from Mahayana, Zen and Theravada sources, so I am comfortable that the publishing house itself is fine and the books from that source can be assessed individually (if a work, for example, is a bit outdated or superceded by subsequent scholarship. I also looked the Stanford Source noted above, and given that I am not a Buddhist nor a scholar of Buddhism, it too appears to be a solid source.
Tshongkhapa certainly had critics of some of his views - including notably Gorampa Sonam Senge, Shakya Chogden (1428–1507), Karmapa Mikyo Dorje, Mipham, Gendun Chophel, and Botrul (1898 1959) - there were even some critics of certain views of Tsongkhapa (particularly some of those found in his earlier works) by later Geluk writers. All these have been extensively discussed in good academic sources which are not too difficult to find, so it should be possible to write a very good and very useful sections summarizing all these criticisms in a balanced way in this article. These criticisms of Tsongkhapa (and the Geluk responses to them) are of course an absolutely central and vital part in the development of all Madhyamika Buddhist philosophy in Tibet post-Tsongkhapa. Understanding these criticisms is also critical to fully understanding Tsongkhapa's views themselves. 19:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
I've read this article and I'm none the wiser about what this person actually stood for or what his teachings were. It just reads like a big list of names of other people and names of various mystical practices. What exactly were his teachings? -- Eamonnca1 TALK 18:02, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
I've copied and ordered djlewis' sources, and added one more:
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:31, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Joshua. A few corrections and additions (Yes, I've been collecting).
djlewis ( talk) 15:15, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
I note that this section was removed and restored recently. I'm not surprised. The section is polemically one-sided. Whoever authored it has broken nearly every wiki guideline there is.
However, I am not in favour of big deletes, as Victoria knows.
NPOV articles describe debates fairly rather than advocating any side of the debate. ( 20040302 ( talk) 16:42, 3 March 2015 (UTC))
Actually, It's not merely BLP that are relevant. The most important aspect, IMO is NPOV, which is the representaion of a neutral point of view. Also, as I have said before, I'm not convinced at all by the bias in your views regarding TK. It's really important to be able to talk without picking sides.
Likewise, I authored the section using fully referenced WP:RS with page numbers; the accusation of OR was unfounded, and I do not like the implication that be that his art comes with it.
The new criticism section which you recovered from the original 'views' section remains poorly written. As I mention earlier, (and you seem to ignore), The least interesting aspect of the debate is whether or not Tsongkhapa synthesised his position. The most important aspect (for nearly every scholar involved) is whether or not it represents a valid soteriology ( 20040302 ( talk) 14:41, 7 March 2015 (UTC))
Victoria, you appear to be avoiding my point - please explain yourself. I am not against a criticism section, as long as it is coherent. The current criticism section is far from coherent, and seems centred on a stance that Tk wasn't following tradition. Not following tradition is not even considered to be a criticism nowadays. The source of inspiration is not considered particularly interesting. What matters is if the arguments themselves stand up to scrutiny. Now, I may believe that his arguments do, or do not, but it isn't relevant to WP. What is flagrant is that the debate regarding his views is active, and has been active since the tail end of the 14th century. Our job is not to take sides in the dispute, but to depict the dispute. What saddens me is the very weakness of the 'criticism' section - no mention of the Shen-tong argument, or even a mention of reflexive awareness. Nothing about TK's objection to the contemporary movement attempting to synthesise yogacayra with madhyamaka. Nothing about his other veiled (and not so veiled) critiques of other contemporaries. I want to see less religious bias and more academic rigour, please. 20040302 ( talk) 23:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
The business of not following tradition is relevant IMHO, since that is a common meme in Buddhist philosophy and soteriology. The two most prominent examples are the "back dating" of both the Abhidharma and the Mahayana (including the Vajrayana) to be literally taught by the Buddha even though they were not propounded or developed until after his death. Staying true to the thought of the Buddha is considered, even today, an important imprimatur, even though it is frequently contrived or attributed to "supernatural" processes. So this line of critique should probably be covered, but it clearly has to be placed in context for digestion by modern readers. The real point, however, is that accusing a philosopher of deviating from tradition is not a criticism in the same sense as, say, an accusation of hypocrisy, financial malfeasance, etc (as for, say, Mother Teresa). It's part of the philosophical colloquy. In fact, I'd rather see such a section entitled "philosophical opponents" or "philosophical controversies" than "criticism". The demon thing, btw, is another aspect of the very different way some of the philosophical back-and-forth works for Tibetans -- sometimes supernaturally. It is a bit extreme, however, since it amounts to accusing the distinct majority of Tibetans of indirectly admiring or venerating a demon, since the Gelug is still the majority school and Je Tsonghkhapa is admired by people of all schools. In that sense, it's a bit like accusing St. Francis of Assisi of consorting with Satan to do his healing -- it insults a lot of people beside hard core Franciscans. djlewis ( talk) 17:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Re "Scrubbing an article of info is the opposite of NPOV" -- I wish that NPOV were so easily and mechanically determined, without evaluating content. What if somebody added a criticism section to the article on St. Francis (there isn't one now!) and quoted some rabid, obviously nutcase anti-Catholic sources that accuse him of consorting with Satan. Would removing that section be whitewashing or anti-NPOV? djlewis ( talk) 18:01, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Not St. Francis but Pope Francis -- http://lasteelshow.org/main/?p=4226 -- if this were cited on the page for the current Pope, would removing it be whitewashing? No criticism section there either -- yet ;) djlewis ( talk) 18:09, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
DjLewis, I don't disagree with you regarding the idea of 'tradition' from within Buddhism - however, tradition bears little weight in modern scholarship - indeed, people are far more likely to praise originality in the modern era. Wikipedia is not constrained by, and pays little heed to, the mores and peccadillos of the Buddhist hermeneutic regarding tradition, and it is this that I am arguing here. There is little (IMO no) point in discussing whether or not the vehement opponents of TK such as Gorampa really believed that he was visited by demons - it is merely a contextual play of debate that was well-recognised, and it is out of place here, both in terms it's use out of context, and as importantly as novelty isn't considered a criticism in the modern world. If originality and novelty were such a bad thing, I doubt that individuals such as Einstein would be so praised in history. ( 20040302 ( talk) 19:45, 8 March 2015 (UTC))
The entire criticism section needs a rewrite - I will do some of this work - using well known positions of Gorampa, etc. I've made one edit so far.
The qualifier regarding Thupten Jinpa (a quote which is also completely taken out of context) that he is the translator of the dalai lama is overstating his role, and also (via rather bitter form of WP:SYNTH editing) written to suggest that the dalai lama is opposed to Tsongkhapa. this is patently not true. The dalai lama has repeatedly depended on, (and avidly supports) Tsongkhapa's works, especially regarding Madhyamaka. ( 20040302 ( talk) 18:30, 11 March 2015 (UTC))
I have pulled the sources section - it's not sources - we already have that under 'english translations' and 'notes'. This section is either repeated text from one of these two other sections, or they are shameless plugs. ( 20040302 ( talk) 18:35, 11 March 2015 (UTC))
Note 21 has a typo, emptitness should be emptiness. Not sure how to fix this, the edit page only shows
. Thanks. -- Scratchmarc ( talk) 19:23, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
I added citation needed and dubious tags to the following 2 sentences since the claims are uncited and don't make much sense either.
This controversy remains particularly active, and can be easily seen in modern published works. Unfortunately, due to the paucity of translated material, many authors are unaware of the depth and complexity of this debate.
Can one of you specialists finally explain in the article what Tsongkhapa peculiair views on "emptiness" are? I'm still waiting for the solution of the cliffhanger! Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 08:04, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
I've added info on Tsongkhapa's pairing of calming meditation with analytical practice, and his understanding of emptiness ("view" is too realtivistic, I think). The sources are not the best, I'm afraid; I thrust that others who have a better grip on this subject can provide better sources. But it's a start! Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:30, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
This info seems to be relevant. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 08:01, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
@ Dienekles: this edit added to this text
Tsongkhapa's first principal work, The Golden Garland of Eloquence ( Wylie: legs bshad gser phreng [1]) demonstrated a philosophical view in line with the Yogacara school [2] and, as became one of his hallmarks, was more influenced by Indian authors than contemporary Tibetan sources. At this time his account of the Madhyamaka focused on its interpretation as a negative dialectic structure.
the following, together with references:
[At this time his account of the Madhyamaka focused on its interpretation as a negative dialectic structure], in line with Prasaṅgika philosophy. [3] [4] [5] [6]
References
The Lam Rim Chen Mo is a primary work, from a later period than the The Golden Garland of Eloquence. None of those pages (227-229, 224-267, 204-5) says anything about his stance in this early period. The Gelug-Kagyu Tradition of Mahamudra p.323 says: "Tsongkhapa has explained this point in an even more potent manner in Totally Clarifying the Intentions [of Chandrakirti's "Supplement to (Nagarjuna's 'Root Stanzas on) the Middle Way'"]." Nothing in this alinea about his early work being in line with Prasangika.
Otherwise, this is what Gareth Sparham writes regarding The Golden Garland (emphasis mine):
Tsongkhapa's Golden Garland is his most important early work. It takes the form of a long explanation of the Perfection of Wisdom sūtras, given pride of place in the Kanjur as the foremost words of the Buddha, after the Vinaya section (the codifications of ethical conduct). It is a word-by-word commentary on the topics in the Ornament for the Clear Realizations (Abhisamayālaṃkāra). Tsongkhapa bases his explanation on two sub-commentaries by Ārya Vimuktisena (sixth century?) and Hari Bhadra (end of the eighth century). It propounds a philosophy that later Gelukpas, following the taxonomy developed in the mature works of Tsongkhapa, call Yogācāra-svātantrika-madhyamaka, in essence a Middle Way that incorporates many of the categories of Yogācāra Buddhism, yet does not have the authority of Candrakīrti's Prāsaṅgika interpretation.
Read again: "Yogācāra-svātantrika-madhyamaka."
I'm getting tired of your misrepresentation of sources, the WP:OR, the unwillingness to reach WP:CONCENCUS, and the WP:ICANTHEARYOU probelsm you have, so I'll leave it to you to self-revert. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:25, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
@ CFynn and Javierfv1212: could you take a look here? Thanks. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:45, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Je Tsongkhapa article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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A fact from Je Tsongkhapa appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 28 December 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:
|
I think the following important facts have been ommited. 1. The philosophical project of Btsong-kha-pa. 2. The fact that he did not see himself as starting a new school, i.e. he never intended to found a school. 3. His controversial vision of Manjusri. 4. Shouldn't there be links to his main students.
Also, in an encylopedia I think sanskrit and Tibetan words should be spelled correctly. I have taken care of the Tibetan ones but the Sanskrit ones still need help. -- Nathan hill 10:01, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
[1] Site of Kadampa Buddhism Der Ausdruck “Freudvolles Land” in der fünften Zeile ist der Name des Reinen Landes von Buddha Maitreya, das in Sanskrit als “Tushita” oder im Tibetischen als “Ganden” bekannt ist. Nach seinem Tod ging Je Tsongkhapa an diesen Ort.
The "criticism" section as it stands seems more to engaging in the (rather extensive) disputation regarding Tsongkhapa's philosophic views than explaining or reporting on them. If someone doesn't fix it soon, I think it should simply be omitted. Perhaps parts of it can be resurrected in amore general section on Tsongkhapa's views (which is lacking, as noted elsewhere in this page). Also, citing one source that accuses Tsongkhapa of succumbing to a demon pretty clearly crosses the line from objective reporting into insult and disputation. Finally, the standards for selecting and citing references seems pretty weak in this section, as does the general logical structure. djlewis ( talk) 20:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
@ VictoriaGrayson:My primary critique of the criticism section was that is was (and again is) disputatious rather than neutral -- it's directly propagating criticisms by some of Tsongkhapa's rivals of his views and the quality of his life and thinking (most notably mistaking a demon for Manjushri, but others things as well). So it not NPOV.
And I don't understand why it's importnat that TK is dead. I don't think that because a person is dead he is open to such one-sided and bizarre (yes, bizarre) attacks, particularly when such disputations are proxies for ongoing contemporary controversies in Tibetan Buddhism which are now worldwide in scope. As for being poorly sourced, I don't think that one rival's personal, unsupported assertion that Tsongkhapa was influenced by a demon counts as a neutral or scholarly source. To be neutral, you'd have to cite scholarship that addresses the evidence and concludes based on that evidence that yes, there is a plausible case that Tsongkhapa mistook a demon for Manjushri (which I doubt there is). In fact, the real news here is not about TK but about Gorampa.
As for Jinpa's citation, Jinpa is one of the most vociferous admirers of Tsongkhapa's thought today, and his remarks are taken out of context - so that too is poorly sourced unless embedded in an larger piece that addresses, at least, why a mystic vision is an issue. I can see a critical section on Tsongkhapa's views, but a NPOV one -- this isn't even close. I would like to remove it and encourage someone, if they like, to write a NPOV section instead -- I haven't the time. It might start like --
TK's thought has been enormously influential in Tibet and now worldwide. The important points are blah blah blah. Criticisms of TK come from other Tibetan schools, and has at times grown so heated that one dissenting Sakya scholar has even accused him of blah blah demon blah, an isolated and bizarre assertion, even by Tibetan standards, against one of the most influential figures in Tibetan history.
But as for many other important thinkers IMHO TK deserves a separate article on his views and thought, with pros and cons. But the section as it stands is way off base. Before I remove it again, someone please tell me how we resolve such a a back-and-forth dispute? djlewis ( talk) 19:10, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm afraid the critics may have a point here. I also get the impression thet the demons are over-emphasized, to give the impression that Tsoghkhapa was some weirdo. I'd be interested what was novel about his interpretations, and why the demons were necessary to lend credibility to his views. He's an important figure in Tibetan Buddhism, so I'd be interested in his "development". And the DL-quote is indeed too long. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:44, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan:Just to explain. Tsongkhapa and Gorampa are two major Tibetan philosophers of different schools who disagree on a number of crucial points. Tsongkhapa claimed to have many mystical visions of Manjushri, the bodhisattva/buddha of wisdom, from whom he obtained many of his philosophical insights. Besides disputing Tsongkhapa philosophically, at one point Gorampa apparently stated that Tsongkhapa must have been in communion not with Manjushri but with a demon, and therefore to have been spreading demonic falsehoods instead of truth. Who knows what he meant, especially from the point of view of the modern Western naturalist zeitgeist, but there is apparently no evidence that anyone else ever publicly agreed with Gorampa on this calumny. Given the prominence of Tsongkhapa's views in Tibet, it is in effect accusing the major school and the majority of Tibetans of following a demonic line. Obviously this is hyperbole, and has no bearing on the philosophical issues presumably under discussion here. BTW, most Tibetans, even today, accept the supernatural, including demons, so it's not an issue of being a weirdo, except insofar as they are all weirdos from the Western perspective.
The subtext is that the Tibetans take their philosophy approximately the way Americans take baseball, and get equally heated. It's like the Red Sox vs the Yankees, and Tsongkhapa is a Yankee, in fact, Babe Ruth. My guess is that this whole section on Tsongkhapa was created by "fans" of one or more schools that oppose Tsongkhapa's, to cast doubt on his reliability, like Red Sox fans pointing at Babe Ruth's beer belly and hard drinking. But it's of very low quality by all standards, including NPOV.
I'm very busy, but give me a few days and I will construct a decent section on Tsongkhapa's academic views -- without the thoroughly irrelevant demon accusation (which I'd like to remove immediately). djlewis ( talk) 05:39, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
OK, here's my take on this article: It is not particularly well-written and would very much benefit from more sourcing, there is a great deal of material with no footnoting at all. If we were, for example, to submit this article as a potential GA, it would be rejected out of hand. I also take issue with the sections that have long quotations but no real summary of the analysis (and said analysis or summary would need to be sourced). So in effect, the article has some very superficial sections that need work. The work in question probably needs a bit more assessment (in other words, some sort assessment along the lines of "on one hand, this writer says A, but on the other hand another writer says B, and analysis of expert C says that A is kind of right abut B is also kind of right.") That said, Wisdom Publications is an acceptable mainstream publisher of Buddhist works, and it appears to publish material from Mahayana, Zen and Theravada sources, so I am comfortable that the publishing house itself is fine and the books from that source can be assessed individually (if a work, for example, is a bit outdated or superceded by subsequent scholarship. I also looked the Stanford Source noted above, and given that I am not a Buddhist nor a scholar of Buddhism, it too appears to be a solid source.
Tshongkhapa certainly had critics of some of his views - including notably Gorampa Sonam Senge, Shakya Chogden (1428–1507), Karmapa Mikyo Dorje, Mipham, Gendun Chophel, and Botrul (1898 1959) - there were even some critics of certain views of Tsongkhapa (particularly some of those found in his earlier works) by later Geluk writers. All these have been extensively discussed in good academic sources which are not too difficult to find, so it should be possible to write a very good and very useful sections summarizing all these criticisms in a balanced way in this article. These criticisms of Tsongkhapa (and the Geluk responses to them) are of course an absolutely central and vital part in the development of all Madhyamika Buddhist philosophy in Tibet post-Tsongkhapa. Understanding these criticisms is also critical to fully understanding Tsongkhapa's views themselves. 19:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
I've read this article and I'm none the wiser about what this person actually stood for or what his teachings were. It just reads like a big list of names of other people and names of various mystical practices. What exactly were his teachings? -- Eamonnca1 TALK 18:02, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
I've copied and ordered djlewis' sources, and added one more:
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:31, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Joshua. A few corrections and additions (Yes, I've been collecting).
djlewis ( talk) 15:15, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
I note that this section was removed and restored recently. I'm not surprised. The section is polemically one-sided. Whoever authored it has broken nearly every wiki guideline there is.
However, I am not in favour of big deletes, as Victoria knows.
NPOV articles describe debates fairly rather than advocating any side of the debate. ( 20040302 ( talk) 16:42, 3 March 2015 (UTC))
Actually, It's not merely BLP that are relevant. The most important aspect, IMO is NPOV, which is the representaion of a neutral point of view. Also, as I have said before, I'm not convinced at all by the bias in your views regarding TK. It's really important to be able to talk without picking sides.
Likewise, I authored the section using fully referenced WP:RS with page numbers; the accusation of OR was unfounded, and I do not like the implication that be that his art comes with it.
The new criticism section which you recovered from the original 'views' section remains poorly written. As I mention earlier, (and you seem to ignore), The least interesting aspect of the debate is whether or not Tsongkhapa synthesised his position. The most important aspect (for nearly every scholar involved) is whether or not it represents a valid soteriology ( 20040302 ( talk) 14:41, 7 March 2015 (UTC))
Victoria, you appear to be avoiding my point - please explain yourself. I am not against a criticism section, as long as it is coherent. The current criticism section is far from coherent, and seems centred on a stance that Tk wasn't following tradition. Not following tradition is not even considered to be a criticism nowadays. The source of inspiration is not considered particularly interesting. What matters is if the arguments themselves stand up to scrutiny. Now, I may believe that his arguments do, or do not, but it isn't relevant to WP. What is flagrant is that the debate regarding his views is active, and has been active since the tail end of the 14th century. Our job is not to take sides in the dispute, but to depict the dispute. What saddens me is the very weakness of the 'criticism' section - no mention of the Shen-tong argument, or even a mention of reflexive awareness. Nothing about TK's objection to the contemporary movement attempting to synthesise yogacayra with madhyamaka. Nothing about his other veiled (and not so veiled) critiques of other contemporaries. I want to see less religious bias and more academic rigour, please. 20040302 ( talk) 23:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
The business of not following tradition is relevant IMHO, since that is a common meme in Buddhist philosophy and soteriology. The two most prominent examples are the "back dating" of both the Abhidharma and the Mahayana (including the Vajrayana) to be literally taught by the Buddha even though they were not propounded or developed until after his death. Staying true to the thought of the Buddha is considered, even today, an important imprimatur, even though it is frequently contrived or attributed to "supernatural" processes. So this line of critique should probably be covered, but it clearly has to be placed in context for digestion by modern readers. The real point, however, is that accusing a philosopher of deviating from tradition is not a criticism in the same sense as, say, an accusation of hypocrisy, financial malfeasance, etc (as for, say, Mother Teresa). It's part of the philosophical colloquy. In fact, I'd rather see such a section entitled "philosophical opponents" or "philosophical controversies" than "criticism". The demon thing, btw, is another aspect of the very different way some of the philosophical back-and-forth works for Tibetans -- sometimes supernaturally. It is a bit extreme, however, since it amounts to accusing the distinct majority of Tibetans of indirectly admiring or venerating a demon, since the Gelug is still the majority school and Je Tsonghkhapa is admired by people of all schools. In that sense, it's a bit like accusing St. Francis of Assisi of consorting with Satan to do his healing -- it insults a lot of people beside hard core Franciscans. djlewis ( talk) 17:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Re "Scrubbing an article of info is the opposite of NPOV" -- I wish that NPOV were so easily and mechanically determined, without evaluating content. What if somebody added a criticism section to the article on St. Francis (there isn't one now!) and quoted some rabid, obviously nutcase anti-Catholic sources that accuse him of consorting with Satan. Would removing that section be whitewashing or anti-NPOV? djlewis ( talk) 18:01, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Not St. Francis but Pope Francis -- http://lasteelshow.org/main/?p=4226 -- if this were cited on the page for the current Pope, would removing it be whitewashing? No criticism section there either -- yet ;) djlewis ( talk) 18:09, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
DjLewis, I don't disagree with you regarding the idea of 'tradition' from within Buddhism - however, tradition bears little weight in modern scholarship - indeed, people are far more likely to praise originality in the modern era. Wikipedia is not constrained by, and pays little heed to, the mores and peccadillos of the Buddhist hermeneutic regarding tradition, and it is this that I am arguing here. There is little (IMO no) point in discussing whether or not the vehement opponents of TK such as Gorampa really believed that he was visited by demons - it is merely a contextual play of debate that was well-recognised, and it is out of place here, both in terms it's use out of context, and as importantly as novelty isn't considered a criticism in the modern world. If originality and novelty were such a bad thing, I doubt that individuals such as Einstein would be so praised in history. ( 20040302 ( talk) 19:45, 8 March 2015 (UTC))
The entire criticism section needs a rewrite - I will do some of this work - using well known positions of Gorampa, etc. I've made one edit so far.
The qualifier regarding Thupten Jinpa (a quote which is also completely taken out of context) that he is the translator of the dalai lama is overstating his role, and also (via rather bitter form of WP:SYNTH editing) written to suggest that the dalai lama is opposed to Tsongkhapa. this is patently not true. The dalai lama has repeatedly depended on, (and avidly supports) Tsongkhapa's works, especially regarding Madhyamaka. ( 20040302 ( talk) 18:30, 11 March 2015 (UTC))
I have pulled the sources section - it's not sources - we already have that under 'english translations' and 'notes'. This section is either repeated text from one of these two other sections, or they are shameless plugs. ( 20040302 ( talk) 18:35, 11 March 2015 (UTC))
Note 21 has a typo, emptitness should be emptiness. Not sure how to fix this, the edit page only shows
. Thanks. -- Scratchmarc ( talk) 19:23, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
I added citation needed and dubious tags to the following 2 sentences since the claims are uncited and don't make much sense either.
This controversy remains particularly active, and can be easily seen in modern published works. Unfortunately, due to the paucity of translated material, many authors are unaware of the depth and complexity of this debate.
Can one of you specialists finally explain in the article what Tsongkhapa peculiair views on "emptiness" are? I'm still waiting for the solution of the cliffhanger! Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 08:04, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
I've added info on Tsongkhapa's pairing of calming meditation with analytical practice, and his understanding of emptiness ("view" is too realtivistic, I think). The sources are not the best, I'm afraid; I thrust that others who have a better grip on this subject can provide better sources. But it's a start! Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:30, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
This info seems to be relevant. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 08:01, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
@ Dienekles: this edit added to this text
Tsongkhapa's first principal work, The Golden Garland of Eloquence ( Wylie: legs bshad gser phreng [1]) demonstrated a philosophical view in line with the Yogacara school [2] and, as became one of his hallmarks, was more influenced by Indian authors than contemporary Tibetan sources. At this time his account of the Madhyamaka focused on its interpretation as a negative dialectic structure.
the following, together with references:
[At this time his account of the Madhyamaka focused on its interpretation as a negative dialectic structure], in line with Prasaṅgika philosophy. [3] [4] [5] [6]
References
The Lam Rim Chen Mo is a primary work, from a later period than the The Golden Garland of Eloquence. None of those pages (227-229, 224-267, 204-5) says anything about his stance in this early period. The Gelug-Kagyu Tradition of Mahamudra p.323 says: "Tsongkhapa has explained this point in an even more potent manner in Totally Clarifying the Intentions [of Chandrakirti's "Supplement to (Nagarjuna's 'Root Stanzas on) the Middle Way'"]." Nothing in this alinea about his early work being in line with Prasangika.
Otherwise, this is what Gareth Sparham writes regarding The Golden Garland (emphasis mine):
Tsongkhapa's Golden Garland is his most important early work. It takes the form of a long explanation of the Perfection of Wisdom sūtras, given pride of place in the Kanjur as the foremost words of the Buddha, after the Vinaya section (the codifications of ethical conduct). It is a word-by-word commentary on the topics in the Ornament for the Clear Realizations (Abhisamayālaṃkāra). Tsongkhapa bases his explanation on two sub-commentaries by Ārya Vimuktisena (sixth century?) and Hari Bhadra (end of the eighth century). It propounds a philosophy that later Gelukpas, following the taxonomy developed in the mature works of Tsongkhapa, call Yogācāra-svātantrika-madhyamaka, in essence a Middle Way that incorporates many of the categories of Yogācāra Buddhism, yet does not have the authority of Candrakīrti's Prāsaṅgika interpretation.
Read again: "Yogācāra-svātantrika-madhyamaka."
I'm getting tired of your misrepresentation of sources, the WP:OR, the unwillingness to reach WP:CONCENCUS, and the WP:ICANTHEARYOU probelsm you have, so I'll leave it to you to self-revert. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:25, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
@ CFynn and Javierfv1212: could you take a look here? Thanks. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:45, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
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