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Should this be merged with Jay's Treaty? older≠ wiser 01:25, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
No need -- I decided to start merging it myself after taking a closer look at the two. older≠ wiserC
Shouldn't it be called "Jay's Treaty", not the grammatically questionable title "Jay Treaty" ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.78.12.127 ( talk) 03:49, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Why exactly were the citizens angry at Jay?
American citizens were angry at Jay because he failed to achieve the original goals that Jay's treaty was supposed to accomplish. For example, "Jay was instructed to secure compensations for the British assaults on American shipping, to demand withdrawal of British forces from the frontier posts, and to negotiate a new commercial treaty" (Brinkley). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gimmesomeoj ( talk • contribs) 00:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
John Jay was Chief Justice of the United State. NOT!!!! Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. WikiPedia's style sheet should correct this throughout. Gary47290 ( talk) 22:57, 12 April 2014 (UTC)Gary47290
What was the problem with the article in the treaty concerning Caribbean Trade?
-- 65.139.115.30 16:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)pwilliams56@netzero.com
The result of the debate was no consensus. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 02:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
He is amazing Wewreeeeeeee ( talk) 01:24, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
He is the best and in 1788 he joined the us army
Wewreeeeeeee ( talk) 01:26, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
It's not a serious matter; but Jay's Treaty appears to be the more common name, and is more natural English. Bemis: Jay's Treaty is still the standard reference. It happened that Jay's Treaty was merged into Jay Treaty. Let's merge the other way.
It would help if Rjensen would pay more attention to the sources he cites. Elkins and McKitrick do outline a "more positive view" of the treaty and its instructions, on page 396; they then immediately acknowledge "one big difficulty": the positive view requires a general process of cooperation between the two parties. In this view, the particular terms are less important than the process of cooperation; terms can always be revised. They then write, with visible regret, that there is little indication that the British had the necessary intention to cooperate. Septentrionalis 03:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Elkins and McKitrick, p. 396. "What one thinks about the treaty Jay brought back depends in very large part on how one views the instructions he took with him and whether the view is a broad or a narrow ine. The instructions might simply be seen as the agenda for a course of adversary bargaining, which most treaty-making amounts to, the evaluation of which depends on how much each side "wins". These instructions in particular could be judged, as they largely have been, as having a defeatist, defensive, and negative quality. Such was the suspicion many had of them at the time, and the tendency then was to conclude that Jay got much the worst of the "bargain". Such a view has to a great degree persisted ever since.
"Yet these are not the only grounds for viewing the instructions and the spirit in which they were devised. They may well have represented not a cramped holding action on the part of a weak power, but a bold initiative, a grand imaginative projection, simply the first step of a comprehensive policy that would not merely settle outstanding past differences but usher in a new era of prosperity in Anglo-American trade. With the objective so seen, the results might look somewhat different. Jay might then reappear as having made very few errors, and having conducted his mission with a good measure of skill. And evidence, thus re-examined, would give surprizingly little warrant for the traditional assumption that Jay was "outwitted" and "outmaneuvered".
"A more positive view such as this would not be wrong, except that it carries one big difficulty. It would require that Jay's conception and that of his British as to the overall objectives of the negiotiation be essentially similar, whereas there is little indication that they were. True, the negiotiators got on very well, and neither seems to have behaved in a mean and haggling way. Yet the American had a sweeping view of the future , while that of the British was distinctly limited, their minds being essentially elsewhere. They may have been more accommodating than usual, and even more enlightened; they may actually have altered some of their fixed prejudices to for the occasion, in order to placate the Americans. But this was the limit of their concern, which was not really for the future at all. It was simply for reverting to a state of things in which America did not constitute a problem.
Three paragraphs; three points.
In short, many historians have held the negative view [and it can easily be cited since E & M too]; and E and M think the positive view is probably wrong, because it implies that the British cared about America, whereas "they would have been just as glad" for them to "require no particular attention". To omit their first paragraph is tendentious; to omit their last is inaccuracy. Septentrionalis 23:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
For my part, I see no reason to adopt any view, and never have.
Septentrionalis
14:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The article had a very detailed analysis based on numerous scholars, along with a detailed bibliography. This all got vandalized so I have restored it. If people want to introduce additional viepoints please do so without blanking large sections. This was one of the main diplomatic and political events of the early republic and demands detailed coverage. Rjensen 01:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Rjensen insists on making this article a mass of selective and tendentious quotations. If he does, the result will at least be labelled appropriately. Septentrionalis 17:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
That;s fuller accounts of several of the historians involved; the historians, like Bemis and Weisberger, who take the purely diplomatic view are still missing (and I will have to take some time with Perkins' eccentric view. Considering that Salisbury came twice to the brink of war with the United States, it will require close examination.) Septentrionalis 02:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I include this silly text in the hope that the next version will not look like it was written by Fisher Ames. The assertion that the actual grievance against the terms of the treaty is what it did to the French is unsupported Federalist propaganda. The extent to which the treaty failed to redress the grievances of Americans was quite enough. Septentrionalis 21:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I admire these artful additions:
This manages to repeat material already clearly set forth, while omitting the major American goals on which Jay did not succeed. It makes assertions about the British goals which even those historians who agree present as speculation. And the assertion that it was repudiated in 1805 is not sourced; is this a misreading of Perkins' asertion that it kept the peace for a decade? It again makes the same unsourced attack on Jefferson and his friends. Ingenious, but hardly ingenuous. Septentrionalis 05:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
From "James Madison: The Quest for National Identity", Harry Ammon: (letter from Monroe to Secretary of State Randolph, 18 Dec 1795 - "Jay, he maintained, had allowed himself to be made an instrument of Pitt's determination to produce a rupture between France and the United States, for it could not be doubted that ratification of the treaty would renew the hostility of recent years. Although Randolph himself was opposed to the treaty, he made no reply, nor did he show the letter to the President as Monroe hoped." Skyemoor 18:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
"Jay's negotiations with the British were largely successful. " is strictly POV. Even Randolph was opposed to it according to Monroe. The British continued to harass and impress American seamen and did not live up to the bulk of the treaty, so in many senses it can be viewed as a failure. Skyemoor 15:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
The page gives two different years for the breakdown of the treaty, but no specifics as to what instigated the breakdown. Does anybody have specifics? The Gomm 02:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
It is a little known fact that Canadian Status Indians that can prove 50% Aboriginal blood (a letter from the band council or an Aboriginal government is necessary as is a long-form birth certificate showing both parents) can cross the American border and obtain a Green Card [1] (see page 73). This is a right afforded by the Jay Treaty. 24.69.165.255 05:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Lots of the information on this page describes success of Jay's Treaty.
For instance, "The Jay's Treaty solved many issues left over from the American Revolution, and opened ten years of largely peaceful trade in the midst of the French Revolutionary Wars." In reality, this treaty solved nothing. It asked for a lot, but the English government basically laughed at the idea of kow-towing to American wants.
Also, claiming "the treaty averted war" is so wrong it's not even funny. Firstly, there was no eminent war before the treaty. It would be is correct that Jay's Treaty sought to end impressment. However, did it? The answer is no. Britain kept on kidnapping sailors until it stopped needing to.
Wikipedia, this article needs some major clean-up.
98.207.46.165 06:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)Tom Groh
"
An IP (76.246.40.191) changed "Treaty of London of 1794" to "Treaty of London of 1795". That prompted me to check dates. The US State Department's treaties in force gives "Signed at London November 19, 1794. Entered into force October 28, 1795." Somebody beat me to the revert. Our article also says that the treaty "was not proclaimed in effect until February 29, 1796." That seems to be wrong unless there is some diffence between "entered into force" and "proclaimed in effect." Ferritecore ( talk) 04:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Wondering if it is misleading to refer, as Canada, the territories to the north of the United States. Pertinent to the entire time that the treaty was in force, the United States bordered on the British North American colonies of Upper Canada, Lower Canada and New Brunswick.
obtained the primary American requirements: British withdrawal from the posts that they occupied in the Northwest Territory of the United States, which they had promised to abandon in 1783. Wartime debts and the US-British North America boundary were sent to arbitration —
Article III of the Jay Treaty declared the right of aboriginal peoples (people indigenous to British North America and/or the US) as well as to US and British citizens in colonies to the north to trade and travel between there and the United States.
GBC ( talk) 04:03, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Why is this article in Wikiproject Indiana? Indiana was admitted to the Union in December, 1816, well after this treaty. -- DThomsen8 ( talk) 01:39, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
"with strong support from President George Washington,"
this is incorrect. As Hugh Brogan suggests in "The Pelican History of the United States of America"
"a treaty which President Washington himself accepted only with the greatest reluctance. It was four months before he could bring himself accepted only with the greatest reluctance. It was four months before he could bring himself to submit it to the Senate, which very nearly rejected it; and then it was two months before he could bring himself to it (August 1795). The country was bitterly divided: as one Federalist had rightly predicted, 'the success of Mr Jay will secure peace abroad, and kindle war at home'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.167.238.250 ( talk) 16:34, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, well, support or not it was signed under the direction and authority of President Washington, which I have reflected in my edit. Int21h ( talk) 09:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
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Notes section, item 19 link to American Foreign Relations site may have been right at some point but links now to an E-N page with no info on Jay Treaty. I searched from the main page of the site and a corrected link would be: http://www.americanforeignrelations.com/A-D/Arbitration-Mediation-and-Conciliation-Jay-s-treaty-and-the-treaty-of-ghent.html GretchenRPH ( talk) 12:23, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Even by the standards of WP, this article is one of the most nakedly biased and US-Centric pages I’ve come across for some time. It consists of a series of extremely questionable statements, almost exclusively without adequate references. It’s as if written by someone from their half –remembered school history lessons, and unless we get some consensus on this pretty quickly and insert some balance, I’m going to remove a lot of it. As usual when editors discuss the Jay Treaty, it states that Britain failed to vacate the forts. As usual, no mention that this was because America reneged on Articles 4 and 6 of the Paris Treaty and that its state courts impeded the collection of debts owed the British and upheld the confiscation of Loyalist estates, despite an explicit promise not to do so. I have changed this, please don’t revert it. The article also states that the Royal Navy captured ‘hundreds’ of American merchant ships prior to the treaty. Further down it gives a figure of 250. I would like to see proof of this highly dubious, unsourced claim. In many cases what the RN was actually doing was intercepting cargos of grain under the right of Angary since there was a famine going on. As such it was basically compulsory purchasing the cargoes, hence the arbitration to agree a proper figure. If the 250 figure is accurate then fine, but we need a reliable source. It states also that the British were ‘funding’ American Indian attacks on settlers in the Northwest. Again, where is the source for this? Britain did not ‘explicitly cede’ the Ohio territory. What it did was accept - under extreme pressure from Franklin who wanted the whole of Canada as well – that the Ohio territory was within the borders of the United States. This is very different, since there was no reason why the Indian tribes could not exist within US borders the same as the Amish, Mormon and Puritan communities did, and did not mean Britain accepted the right of Americans to push the Indians off their land and take it. Clearly they had a lot of faith in the patriots to keep their word, but it was not until the Presidency of Andrew Jackson that the US government definitely declared that there would be no independent Indian states within US borders. And of course the ‘Indian attacks’ were people trying to defend their freedom, liberty & way of life, something that was fine for Americans to do in 1775 but clearly not applicable to Native Americans. And as usual no mention that the ‘American sailors’ were generally ex-British sailors. Finally, where it says that ‘American merchants wanted the British West Indies to be reopened to American trade’, this implies that it was yet another villainous British measure done to spite the Americans, whereas it was simply a result of independence; they were not British citizens anymore, so not automatically entitled to trade there.-- Godwhale ( talk) 17:21, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
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The article text makes it look like Jay was negotiating with himself. Would it be too much to ask if some mention in the text could be made of who he was negotiating with? DuncanHill ( talk) 23:33, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
"The outbreak of war between France and Great Britain (and other countries) in 1793 ended the long peace that had enabled the new nation to flourish in terms of trade and finance."
What long peace? The War of Independence between Britain and US-France was ended by the Treaty of Paris in 1783, just 10 years earlier. Major hostilities may have concluded in 1781, but there were still actions on the ground until the settlement. Simply wrong description. It's a decade, and in the early 1790s British still held forts on the American side and provided support to the Western Indians defending against the American invasions of the Northwest Territory starting in 1791. (Both of these were British violations of the 1783 terms.)
What flourishing? The immediate wake of independence saw profound crisis: war devastation to deal with, disruption of trade, depression conditions, rapid concentration of wealth in the hands of speculators who claimed vast lands based on pre- and postwar grants (expelling other white settlement as squatters) and who acquired discounted war bonds, and impoverishment for war veterans under the weight of debt. There were major debtors' uprisings. Even after the Federalist constitution and the Hamiltonian program under the first years of the Republic, stability still was far from assured. Hamilton-Washington were about to gear up a massive militia to pacify the anti-whiskey tax rebellion in western PA. It's because of situations like these that they were looking to get the Jay Treaty terms.
I have removed the following hidden text that has remained unactioned in the article since 2016:
Cheers! BD2412 T 04:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
The United States and Britain signed a new agreement in 1794 that was dubbed the Jay Treaty after American negotiator Chief Justice John Jay. The treaty's objectives were "friendship, commerce, and navigation." The Jay Treaty's Article III granted free passage across borders to British subjects, residents of the United States, and "the Indians dwelling on either side of the boundary line." When crossing the border, Indians were also exempt from paying duty and taxes on their "own proper goods".
Following the War of 1812, Britain and the United States agreed to reinstate the pre-war rights of the Indian Nations in the Treaty of Ghent, which was signed in 1815. But in Upper and Lower Canada, the laws enacting these rights were allowed to expire in the 1820s, and they haven't been renewed since. Rather, for many years, it was both Canada's and the United States' informal policy to permit unfettered border crossings by Native Americans without levying customs taxes.
The United States modified its immigration restrictions in the 1920s, partly as a result of the Indian Defence League's initiatives and Paul Diabo's Kahnawake Mohawk court challenge. Since then, those who were born in Canada and have at least 50% Aboriginal ancestry are not subject to immigration restrictions and are able to enter, reside, and work in the country without fear of deportation. But the US has never followed through on its pledges to allow duty-free transportation of "proper goods."
In Canada, the legal system is undergoing fast development. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled in the Louis Francis case of 1956 that both the Treaty of Ghent and the Jay Treaty were not treaties with Indian Nations; that the Jay Treaty was not incorporated into Canadian law because it had not been ratified by legislation; and that although Article IX of the Treaty of Ghent was a self-implementing peace treaty, it did not automatically go into effect because it only "promised" to restore the rights of Indian Nations. The Crown "engages...forthwith to restore the rights" of Indians to what they were prior to the War of 1812, according to Article IX.
Border Crossing
When you cross the border with intent to live or work in the U.S., you should be prepared to prove that you have at least 50% Aboriginal blood. Different U.S. Immigration & Naturalization Service (INS) ports of entry, or border crossings, may ask for different kinds of documentation. Some ask for more; some for less. At the border, you may be asked for any or all of the following documents:
You do NOT need a green card, also known as an Alien Registration Card or Form I-551, in order to live or work in the United States. This is your right as a Canadian-born First Nation. Onkwehonwe87 ( talk) 18:30, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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Should this be merged with Jay's Treaty? older≠ wiser 01:25, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
No need -- I decided to start merging it myself after taking a closer look at the two. older≠ wiserC
Shouldn't it be called "Jay's Treaty", not the grammatically questionable title "Jay Treaty" ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.78.12.127 ( talk) 03:49, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Why exactly were the citizens angry at Jay?
American citizens were angry at Jay because he failed to achieve the original goals that Jay's treaty was supposed to accomplish. For example, "Jay was instructed to secure compensations for the British assaults on American shipping, to demand withdrawal of British forces from the frontier posts, and to negotiate a new commercial treaty" (Brinkley). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gimmesomeoj ( talk • contribs) 00:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
John Jay was Chief Justice of the United State. NOT!!!! Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. WikiPedia's style sheet should correct this throughout. Gary47290 ( talk) 22:57, 12 April 2014 (UTC)Gary47290
What was the problem with the article in the treaty concerning Caribbean Trade?
-- 65.139.115.30 16:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)pwilliams56@netzero.com
The result of the debate was no consensus. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 02:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
He is amazing Wewreeeeeeee ( talk) 01:24, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
He is the best and in 1788 he joined the us army
Wewreeeeeeee ( talk) 01:26, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
It's not a serious matter; but Jay's Treaty appears to be the more common name, and is more natural English. Bemis: Jay's Treaty is still the standard reference. It happened that Jay's Treaty was merged into Jay Treaty. Let's merge the other way.
It would help if Rjensen would pay more attention to the sources he cites. Elkins and McKitrick do outline a "more positive view" of the treaty and its instructions, on page 396; they then immediately acknowledge "one big difficulty": the positive view requires a general process of cooperation between the two parties. In this view, the particular terms are less important than the process of cooperation; terms can always be revised. They then write, with visible regret, that there is little indication that the British had the necessary intention to cooperate. Septentrionalis 03:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Elkins and McKitrick, p. 396. "What one thinks about the treaty Jay brought back depends in very large part on how one views the instructions he took with him and whether the view is a broad or a narrow ine. The instructions might simply be seen as the agenda for a course of adversary bargaining, which most treaty-making amounts to, the evaluation of which depends on how much each side "wins". These instructions in particular could be judged, as they largely have been, as having a defeatist, defensive, and negative quality. Such was the suspicion many had of them at the time, and the tendency then was to conclude that Jay got much the worst of the "bargain". Such a view has to a great degree persisted ever since.
"Yet these are not the only grounds for viewing the instructions and the spirit in which they were devised. They may well have represented not a cramped holding action on the part of a weak power, but a bold initiative, a grand imaginative projection, simply the first step of a comprehensive policy that would not merely settle outstanding past differences but usher in a new era of prosperity in Anglo-American trade. With the objective so seen, the results might look somewhat different. Jay might then reappear as having made very few errors, and having conducted his mission with a good measure of skill. And evidence, thus re-examined, would give surprizingly little warrant for the traditional assumption that Jay was "outwitted" and "outmaneuvered".
"A more positive view such as this would not be wrong, except that it carries one big difficulty. It would require that Jay's conception and that of his British as to the overall objectives of the negiotiation be essentially similar, whereas there is little indication that they were. True, the negiotiators got on very well, and neither seems to have behaved in a mean and haggling way. Yet the American had a sweeping view of the future , while that of the British was distinctly limited, their minds being essentially elsewhere. They may have been more accommodating than usual, and even more enlightened; they may actually have altered some of their fixed prejudices to for the occasion, in order to placate the Americans. But this was the limit of their concern, which was not really for the future at all. It was simply for reverting to a state of things in which America did not constitute a problem.
Three paragraphs; three points.
In short, many historians have held the negative view [and it can easily be cited since E & M too]; and E and M think the positive view is probably wrong, because it implies that the British cared about America, whereas "they would have been just as glad" for them to "require no particular attention". To omit their first paragraph is tendentious; to omit their last is inaccuracy. Septentrionalis 23:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
For my part, I see no reason to adopt any view, and never have.
Septentrionalis
14:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The article had a very detailed analysis based on numerous scholars, along with a detailed bibliography. This all got vandalized so I have restored it. If people want to introduce additional viepoints please do so without blanking large sections. This was one of the main diplomatic and political events of the early republic and demands detailed coverage. Rjensen 01:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Rjensen insists on making this article a mass of selective and tendentious quotations. If he does, the result will at least be labelled appropriately. Septentrionalis 17:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
That;s fuller accounts of several of the historians involved; the historians, like Bemis and Weisberger, who take the purely diplomatic view are still missing (and I will have to take some time with Perkins' eccentric view. Considering that Salisbury came twice to the brink of war with the United States, it will require close examination.) Septentrionalis 02:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I include this silly text in the hope that the next version will not look like it was written by Fisher Ames. The assertion that the actual grievance against the terms of the treaty is what it did to the French is unsupported Federalist propaganda. The extent to which the treaty failed to redress the grievances of Americans was quite enough. Septentrionalis 21:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I admire these artful additions:
This manages to repeat material already clearly set forth, while omitting the major American goals on which Jay did not succeed. It makes assertions about the British goals which even those historians who agree present as speculation. And the assertion that it was repudiated in 1805 is not sourced; is this a misreading of Perkins' asertion that it kept the peace for a decade? It again makes the same unsourced attack on Jefferson and his friends. Ingenious, but hardly ingenuous. Septentrionalis 05:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
From "James Madison: The Quest for National Identity", Harry Ammon: (letter from Monroe to Secretary of State Randolph, 18 Dec 1795 - "Jay, he maintained, had allowed himself to be made an instrument of Pitt's determination to produce a rupture between France and the United States, for it could not be doubted that ratification of the treaty would renew the hostility of recent years. Although Randolph himself was opposed to the treaty, he made no reply, nor did he show the letter to the President as Monroe hoped." Skyemoor 18:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
"Jay's negotiations with the British were largely successful. " is strictly POV. Even Randolph was opposed to it according to Monroe. The British continued to harass and impress American seamen and did not live up to the bulk of the treaty, so in many senses it can be viewed as a failure. Skyemoor 15:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
The page gives two different years for the breakdown of the treaty, but no specifics as to what instigated the breakdown. Does anybody have specifics? The Gomm 02:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
It is a little known fact that Canadian Status Indians that can prove 50% Aboriginal blood (a letter from the band council or an Aboriginal government is necessary as is a long-form birth certificate showing both parents) can cross the American border and obtain a Green Card [1] (see page 73). This is a right afforded by the Jay Treaty. 24.69.165.255 05:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Lots of the information on this page describes success of Jay's Treaty.
For instance, "The Jay's Treaty solved many issues left over from the American Revolution, and opened ten years of largely peaceful trade in the midst of the French Revolutionary Wars." In reality, this treaty solved nothing. It asked for a lot, but the English government basically laughed at the idea of kow-towing to American wants.
Also, claiming "the treaty averted war" is so wrong it's not even funny. Firstly, there was no eminent war before the treaty. It would be is correct that Jay's Treaty sought to end impressment. However, did it? The answer is no. Britain kept on kidnapping sailors until it stopped needing to.
Wikipedia, this article needs some major clean-up.
98.207.46.165 06:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)Tom Groh
"
An IP (76.246.40.191) changed "Treaty of London of 1794" to "Treaty of London of 1795". That prompted me to check dates. The US State Department's treaties in force gives "Signed at London November 19, 1794. Entered into force October 28, 1795." Somebody beat me to the revert. Our article also says that the treaty "was not proclaimed in effect until February 29, 1796." That seems to be wrong unless there is some diffence between "entered into force" and "proclaimed in effect." Ferritecore ( talk) 04:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Wondering if it is misleading to refer, as Canada, the territories to the north of the United States. Pertinent to the entire time that the treaty was in force, the United States bordered on the British North American colonies of Upper Canada, Lower Canada and New Brunswick.
obtained the primary American requirements: British withdrawal from the posts that they occupied in the Northwest Territory of the United States, which they had promised to abandon in 1783. Wartime debts and the US-British North America boundary were sent to arbitration —
Article III of the Jay Treaty declared the right of aboriginal peoples (people indigenous to British North America and/or the US) as well as to US and British citizens in colonies to the north to trade and travel between there and the United States.
GBC ( talk) 04:03, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Why is this article in Wikiproject Indiana? Indiana was admitted to the Union in December, 1816, well after this treaty. -- DThomsen8 ( talk) 01:39, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
"with strong support from President George Washington,"
this is incorrect. As Hugh Brogan suggests in "The Pelican History of the United States of America"
"a treaty which President Washington himself accepted only with the greatest reluctance. It was four months before he could bring himself accepted only with the greatest reluctance. It was four months before he could bring himself to submit it to the Senate, which very nearly rejected it; and then it was two months before he could bring himself to it (August 1795). The country was bitterly divided: as one Federalist had rightly predicted, 'the success of Mr Jay will secure peace abroad, and kindle war at home'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.167.238.250 ( talk) 16:34, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, well, support or not it was signed under the direction and authority of President Washington, which I have reflected in my edit. Int21h ( talk) 09:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
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Notes section, item 19 link to American Foreign Relations site may have been right at some point but links now to an E-N page with no info on Jay Treaty. I searched from the main page of the site and a corrected link would be: http://www.americanforeignrelations.com/A-D/Arbitration-Mediation-and-Conciliation-Jay-s-treaty-and-the-treaty-of-ghent.html GretchenRPH ( talk) 12:23, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Even by the standards of WP, this article is one of the most nakedly biased and US-Centric pages I’ve come across for some time. It consists of a series of extremely questionable statements, almost exclusively without adequate references. It’s as if written by someone from their half –remembered school history lessons, and unless we get some consensus on this pretty quickly and insert some balance, I’m going to remove a lot of it. As usual when editors discuss the Jay Treaty, it states that Britain failed to vacate the forts. As usual, no mention that this was because America reneged on Articles 4 and 6 of the Paris Treaty and that its state courts impeded the collection of debts owed the British and upheld the confiscation of Loyalist estates, despite an explicit promise not to do so. I have changed this, please don’t revert it. The article also states that the Royal Navy captured ‘hundreds’ of American merchant ships prior to the treaty. Further down it gives a figure of 250. I would like to see proof of this highly dubious, unsourced claim. In many cases what the RN was actually doing was intercepting cargos of grain under the right of Angary since there was a famine going on. As such it was basically compulsory purchasing the cargoes, hence the arbitration to agree a proper figure. If the 250 figure is accurate then fine, but we need a reliable source. It states also that the British were ‘funding’ American Indian attacks on settlers in the Northwest. Again, where is the source for this? Britain did not ‘explicitly cede’ the Ohio territory. What it did was accept - under extreme pressure from Franklin who wanted the whole of Canada as well – that the Ohio territory was within the borders of the United States. This is very different, since there was no reason why the Indian tribes could not exist within US borders the same as the Amish, Mormon and Puritan communities did, and did not mean Britain accepted the right of Americans to push the Indians off their land and take it. Clearly they had a lot of faith in the patriots to keep their word, but it was not until the Presidency of Andrew Jackson that the US government definitely declared that there would be no independent Indian states within US borders. And of course the ‘Indian attacks’ were people trying to defend their freedom, liberty & way of life, something that was fine for Americans to do in 1775 but clearly not applicable to Native Americans. And as usual no mention that the ‘American sailors’ were generally ex-British sailors. Finally, where it says that ‘American merchants wanted the British West Indies to be reopened to American trade’, this implies that it was yet another villainous British measure done to spite the Americans, whereas it was simply a result of independence; they were not British citizens anymore, so not automatically entitled to trade there.-- Godwhale ( talk) 17:21, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
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The article text makes it look like Jay was negotiating with himself. Would it be too much to ask if some mention in the text could be made of who he was negotiating with? DuncanHill ( talk) 23:33, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
"The outbreak of war between France and Great Britain (and other countries) in 1793 ended the long peace that had enabled the new nation to flourish in terms of trade and finance."
What long peace? The War of Independence between Britain and US-France was ended by the Treaty of Paris in 1783, just 10 years earlier. Major hostilities may have concluded in 1781, but there were still actions on the ground until the settlement. Simply wrong description. It's a decade, and in the early 1790s British still held forts on the American side and provided support to the Western Indians defending against the American invasions of the Northwest Territory starting in 1791. (Both of these were British violations of the 1783 terms.)
What flourishing? The immediate wake of independence saw profound crisis: war devastation to deal with, disruption of trade, depression conditions, rapid concentration of wealth in the hands of speculators who claimed vast lands based on pre- and postwar grants (expelling other white settlement as squatters) and who acquired discounted war bonds, and impoverishment for war veterans under the weight of debt. There were major debtors' uprisings. Even after the Federalist constitution and the Hamiltonian program under the first years of the Republic, stability still was far from assured. Hamilton-Washington were about to gear up a massive militia to pacify the anti-whiskey tax rebellion in western PA. It's because of situations like these that they were looking to get the Jay Treaty terms.
I have removed the following hidden text that has remained unactioned in the article since 2016:
Cheers! BD2412 T 04:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
The United States and Britain signed a new agreement in 1794 that was dubbed the Jay Treaty after American negotiator Chief Justice John Jay. The treaty's objectives were "friendship, commerce, and navigation." The Jay Treaty's Article III granted free passage across borders to British subjects, residents of the United States, and "the Indians dwelling on either side of the boundary line." When crossing the border, Indians were also exempt from paying duty and taxes on their "own proper goods".
Following the War of 1812, Britain and the United States agreed to reinstate the pre-war rights of the Indian Nations in the Treaty of Ghent, which was signed in 1815. But in Upper and Lower Canada, the laws enacting these rights were allowed to expire in the 1820s, and they haven't been renewed since. Rather, for many years, it was both Canada's and the United States' informal policy to permit unfettered border crossings by Native Americans without levying customs taxes.
The United States modified its immigration restrictions in the 1920s, partly as a result of the Indian Defence League's initiatives and Paul Diabo's Kahnawake Mohawk court challenge. Since then, those who were born in Canada and have at least 50% Aboriginal ancestry are not subject to immigration restrictions and are able to enter, reside, and work in the country without fear of deportation. But the US has never followed through on its pledges to allow duty-free transportation of "proper goods."
In Canada, the legal system is undergoing fast development. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled in the Louis Francis case of 1956 that both the Treaty of Ghent and the Jay Treaty were not treaties with Indian Nations; that the Jay Treaty was not incorporated into Canadian law because it had not been ratified by legislation; and that although Article IX of the Treaty of Ghent was a self-implementing peace treaty, it did not automatically go into effect because it only "promised" to restore the rights of Indian Nations. The Crown "engages...forthwith to restore the rights" of Indians to what they were prior to the War of 1812, according to Article IX.
Border Crossing
When you cross the border with intent to live or work in the U.S., you should be prepared to prove that you have at least 50% Aboriginal blood. Different U.S. Immigration & Naturalization Service (INS) ports of entry, or border crossings, may ask for different kinds of documentation. Some ask for more; some for less. At the border, you may be asked for any or all of the following documents:
You do NOT need a green card, also known as an Alien Registration Card or Form I-551, in order to live or work in the United States. This is your right as a Canadian-born First Nation. Onkwehonwe87 ( talk) 18:30, 28 December 2023 (UTC)