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On 19 March 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Jaw harp. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
"The "jaw" variant is attested at least as early as 1774[10] and 1809,[11]"
See also Blue Laws (Connecticut), no. 35.
2001:171B:2274:7C21:C822:E68:E89D:BE33 ( talk) 19:45, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
This article contained a reference to the so-called "Silk Road Foundation", also known as "Silk Road". It's an online publisher. The website can be found here:
https://www.silkroadfoundation.org
This publication sometimes refers to itself as "Silk Road Journal", but should NOT be confused with
Silk Road Journal Online, which has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.
The Silk Road Journal in question is based primarily around Asian archaeology and history. It typically publishes theoretical articles written by researchers who appear to mostly hail from Russia and China. The sole editor of the publication, an American man named Daniel Waugh, has candidly stated that it has no formal peer review:
http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/newsletter/vol15/srjournal_v15.pdf
From the outset, there has been no formal process of peer review, such as one expects in the standard academic journals. We still solicit articles (a task which largely has devolved on me over the years), though we also receive (but have not been overwhelmed by) unsolicited submissions.
Decisions on what to publish (as with any journal) ultimately rest with the editor, who in this case, for better or worse, has acted as the peer reviewer. I often see what I think is gold in material that could never find its way into a standard academic publication. But the perils of rarely seeking outside opinions may mean things slip through without acknowledgement that a subject has been thoroughly treated elsewhere.
The lack of formal peer review does have the unfortunate consequence that junior scholars hoping to advance in their profession may avoid us, since their promotion will depend in the first instance on peer reviewed publication, however excellent (and widely cited) a piece might be which we would publish. Yet in some cases where there is a premium for academics in other countries to publish in a respected journal in English, we have been able to provide just such an opportunity. Many of the senior scholars we have solicited for contributions have politely refused to write for us, since they are already over-committed [...]
So, the Silk Road Foundation is a speedy publishing mill for primary research that is not formally peer reviewed. The editor describes himself as someone who often sees "'gold in material that would never find its way in to a standard academic publication'". A lot of researchers don't want to be published by Silk Road Foundation, and those that do are disproportionately from non-English speaking countries, who struggle to get their theories published in standard English-language journals.
To my mind, this is very near to the definition of predatory publishing, with the exception that the Silk Road Foundation does not even provide the benefits of high-end predatory puboishers, like DOI. It's really more like an internet blog.
The Silk Road Foundation is cited on various ethnical and archaeological articles on Wikipedia, often advancing pet theories, which is out of touch with WP:RS, which says that Wikipedia should prioritize high-quality, peer reviewed secondary research over this kind of stuff.
Although I'm not aware of any controversial material in this particular Wiki article related to its Silk Road Foundation reference, and I have no enmity for the Silk Road Foundation or its publisher, or its authors, this source does not meet Wikipedia's standards for reliable sources, and should not be cited. Hunan201p ( talk) 07:59, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
While Koch and Eulenstein get mentioned the composer who will be most recognized by Germans for use of the Maultrommel or Jew's harp is Carl Orff. Many Germans are first introduced to the instument through Orff's Schulwerk music education pieces. /info/en/?search=Carl_Orff Please add. 2600:1700:1C60:45E0:B531:4DBA:1E06:66F7 ( talk) 02:44, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 23 November 2022. The result of the move review was Procedural close. |
The previous attempt at a name change was misguided, seemingly based on an incorrect etymology. Such is obviously not a valid reason for a change. However, I do think there is a valid reason.
I would propose the article itself be moved to the more neutral "jaw harp." This is still a common name for the instrument, and there is precedent for choosing the most neutral common name available. Plus I find that term "jaw harp" seems to have won out in more modern sources on the topic. If "Jew's harp" is mentioned, it's mentioned as an alternate or older name.
Sure, "Jew's harp" has a longer history of use, but there is no "original names" policy on Wikipedia. What is important is usually that the name is common (per the policy linked above). Wikipedia also strives for neutrality, and this essay mentions this also being applied to titles. And I'd propose it doesn't make a lot of sense for a constantly updating encyclopedia to have fossilized titles, using terms that are falling out of favor.
— trlkly 01:10, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
The range of the mouth harp is an interesting topic and is not a one size fits all. It could also vary (slightly?) from person to person due to different shapes of people's mouths. The notes a mouth harp can make are the higher harmonics (of the frequency at which the mouth harp vibrates) that your mouth is able to reinforce. Your mouth can only contort to reinforce frequencies in a particular range. Think of whistling, it works the same way. The range of your whistle is the range of frequencies your mouth can reinforce (while in a whistling shape, which is not the same as a mouth harp playing shape). Personally, I find my mouth can reinforce frequencies in a range roughly 500 Hz - 3000 Hz. So let's look at an example. G2 is 97.9986 Hz, we'll call it 98. The notes I should be able to hit are the multiples of 98 that fall within that 500 - 3000 range. These are the 6th through 30th harmonics inclusive! The lower the base frequency, the higher the number of the lowest harmonic we can hit, but also the more harmonics we can pack into our range. In my experience, the lower the harmonic (as in the number of the harmonic, not the frequency), the more clear and beautiful the tone, so it is preferable to play as low as you can play comfortably if you're trying to play melodies. There is talk on this page of using two mouth harps, one tuned a 4th above the other, to achieve, I guess some superset of a major scale. But if your mouth harp is tuned low enough to have both the 16th and 32nd harmonic in your range (e.g. C2), that is a chromatic octave right there (16 17 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 27 29 30 32)
Taking a look at the chart we currently have, it says a "tenor" mouth harp (not sure what that means) has a range from the 4th harmonic to the 12th harmonic. This is a factor of x3 between the lowest and highest note. My roughly 500 Hz - 3000 Hz range is a factor of x6. Unless I happen to have double the range of a normal human (and I don't think this likely), this chart is just plain wrong. There is no way to my knowledge to design a mouth harp that is limited to this range, you will either be able to go below 4, or above 12.
sources: Me, as a player of the instrument, and varganist.ru
I would like to edit this article to make changes regarding these things. But I'm hesitant to proceed without some guidance. I'm not sure if I should try to add a different note thing to replace the old one, nor am I sure how much of the information above is appropriate to include, as this is Wikipedia, not a mouth harp playing guide.
Mason Mackaman ( talk) 18:23, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Page moved to alternative Jew's harp. Consensus emerged for the alternative name. ( closed by non-admin page mover) -- Dane talk 01:39, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Jaw harp → Jew's Harp – The name, Jew's Harp has been firmly established in academia and international festivals which focus on the instrument. It is still the most common active name.
The International Jews Harp Congress, the only international festival of its kind which unites jews harps musicians, academics, blacksmiths, and fans took place in Berlin, Germany on July 27, 2022. https://jewsharpsociety.org/9th-international-festival https://www.ufafabrik.de/en/20343/9-internationales-maultrommelfestival.html
There is a lengthy review of this exact controversy in the beginning Micheal Wright's book, The Jews-Harp in Britain and Ireland, published in 2015. https://www.routledge.com/The-Jews-Harp-in-Britain-and-Ireland/Wright/p/book/9781472414137
Diedre Morgan has published her thesis on the instrument in 2017. The title, "Speaking in Tongues: Music, Identity, and Representation in Jew's Harp Communities." She too, goes in great detail regarding why she chose to use the name, Jew's Harp over any alternative name. Her new book is entitled, "Jew’s Harps and Metal: Folk Traditions in Global Modernity" is due to be published in the upcoming years. https://www.academia.edu/35053173/Speaking_in_Tongues_Music_Identity_and_Representation_in_Jews_Harp_Communities_PhD_dissertation_ https://www.deirdremorgan.com/news/2022/10/24/new-book-under-contract-with-routledge-jews-harps-amp-metal-music-folk-traditions-in-global-modernity 24.150.179.240 ( talk) 21:27, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
if there's a chance that a name can be offensive when a suitable alternative exists, then I prefer the neutral alternative.Even if almost nobody ever uses it? -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:45, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Article titles should be neither vulgar (unless unavoidable) nor pedantic. When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others. Oh come on, you know that defining an instrument as a "Jew's" harp can be potentially offensive. Why? I Ask ( talk) 17:31, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Oh come on, you know that defining an instrument as a "Jew's" harp can be potentially offensive.Why would it be? Given that "Jew" is not considered to be an offensive term? It's no more offensive than French horn! -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:52, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
Is it possible to damage your enamel by playing it? 37.47.201.21 ( talk) 23:45, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a clear absence of consensus in favor of the proposed move, and sufficient opposition to the move to make relisting unlikely to result in a different outcome. BD2412 T 18:54, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
Jew's harp → Jaw harp – "Jew harp" has only 3,50,000 results, "Jew's harp" has only 1,75,000 results, but "Jaw harp" has 6,50,000 results on Google, while "Mouth harp" has 5,42,000 results.
"Jaw harp" is the WP:COMMONNAME.
Not only that, but "Jew's harp" is treated as anti-semitic by a number of sources. [8] [9] This is yet another reason why we should avoid using this title. REDISCOVERBHARAT ( talk) 05:30, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Article titles should be neither vulgar (unless unavoidable) nor pedantic. When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others. Paintspot Infez ( talk) 02:38, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jew's harp article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 19 March 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Jaw harp. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
"The "jaw" variant is attested at least as early as 1774[10] and 1809,[11]"
See also Blue Laws (Connecticut), no. 35.
2001:171B:2274:7C21:C822:E68:E89D:BE33 ( talk) 19:45, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
This article contained a reference to the so-called "Silk Road Foundation", also known as "Silk Road". It's an online publisher. The website can be found here:
https://www.silkroadfoundation.org
This publication sometimes refers to itself as "Silk Road Journal", but should NOT be confused with
Silk Road Journal Online, which has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.
The Silk Road Journal in question is based primarily around Asian archaeology and history. It typically publishes theoretical articles written by researchers who appear to mostly hail from Russia and China. The sole editor of the publication, an American man named Daniel Waugh, has candidly stated that it has no formal peer review:
http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/newsletter/vol15/srjournal_v15.pdf
From the outset, there has been no formal process of peer review, such as one expects in the standard academic journals. We still solicit articles (a task which largely has devolved on me over the years), though we also receive (but have not been overwhelmed by) unsolicited submissions.
Decisions on what to publish (as with any journal) ultimately rest with the editor, who in this case, for better or worse, has acted as the peer reviewer. I often see what I think is gold in material that could never find its way into a standard academic publication. But the perils of rarely seeking outside opinions may mean things slip through without acknowledgement that a subject has been thoroughly treated elsewhere.
The lack of formal peer review does have the unfortunate consequence that junior scholars hoping to advance in their profession may avoid us, since their promotion will depend in the first instance on peer reviewed publication, however excellent (and widely cited) a piece might be which we would publish. Yet in some cases where there is a premium for academics in other countries to publish in a respected journal in English, we have been able to provide just such an opportunity. Many of the senior scholars we have solicited for contributions have politely refused to write for us, since they are already over-committed [...]
So, the Silk Road Foundation is a speedy publishing mill for primary research that is not formally peer reviewed. The editor describes himself as someone who often sees "'gold in material that would never find its way in to a standard academic publication'". A lot of researchers don't want to be published by Silk Road Foundation, and those that do are disproportionately from non-English speaking countries, who struggle to get their theories published in standard English-language journals.
To my mind, this is very near to the definition of predatory publishing, with the exception that the Silk Road Foundation does not even provide the benefits of high-end predatory puboishers, like DOI. It's really more like an internet blog.
The Silk Road Foundation is cited on various ethnical and archaeological articles on Wikipedia, often advancing pet theories, which is out of touch with WP:RS, which says that Wikipedia should prioritize high-quality, peer reviewed secondary research over this kind of stuff.
Although I'm not aware of any controversial material in this particular Wiki article related to its Silk Road Foundation reference, and I have no enmity for the Silk Road Foundation or its publisher, or its authors, this source does not meet Wikipedia's standards for reliable sources, and should not be cited. Hunan201p ( talk) 07:59, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
While Koch and Eulenstein get mentioned the composer who will be most recognized by Germans for use of the Maultrommel or Jew's harp is Carl Orff. Many Germans are first introduced to the instument through Orff's Schulwerk music education pieces. /info/en/?search=Carl_Orff Please add. 2600:1700:1C60:45E0:B531:4DBA:1E06:66F7 ( talk) 02:44, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 23 November 2022. The result of the move review was Procedural close. |
The previous attempt at a name change was misguided, seemingly based on an incorrect etymology. Such is obviously not a valid reason for a change. However, I do think there is a valid reason.
I would propose the article itself be moved to the more neutral "jaw harp." This is still a common name for the instrument, and there is precedent for choosing the most neutral common name available. Plus I find that term "jaw harp" seems to have won out in more modern sources on the topic. If "Jew's harp" is mentioned, it's mentioned as an alternate or older name.
Sure, "Jew's harp" has a longer history of use, but there is no "original names" policy on Wikipedia. What is important is usually that the name is common (per the policy linked above). Wikipedia also strives for neutrality, and this essay mentions this also being applied to titles. And I'd propose it doesn't make a lot of sense for a constantly updating encyclopedia to have fossilized titles, using terms that are falling out of favor.
— trlkly 01:10, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
The range of the mouth harp is an interesting topic and is not a one size fits all. It could also vary (slightly?) from person to person due to different shapes of people's mouths. The notes a mouth harp can make are the higher harmonics (of the frequency at which the mouth harp vibrates) that your mouth is able to reinforce. Your mouth can only contort to reinforce frequencies in a particular range. Think of whistling, it works the same way. The range of your whistle is the range of frequencies your mouth can reinforce (while in a whistling shape, which is not the same as a mouth harp playing shape). Personally, I find my mouth can reinforce frequencies in a range roughly 500 Hz - 3000 Hz. So let's look at an example. G2 is 97.9986 Hz, we'll call it 98. The notes I should be able to hit are the multiples of 98 that fall within that 500 - 3000 range. These are the 6th through 30th harmonics inclusive! The lower the base frequency, the higher the number of the lowest harmonic we can hit, but also the more harmonics we can pack into our range. In my experience, the lower the harmonic (as in the number of the harmonic, not the frequency), the more clear and beautiful the tone, so it is preferable to play as low as you can play comfortably if you're trying to play melodies. There is talk on this page of using two mouth harps, one tuned a 4th above the other, to achieve, I guess some superset of a major scale. But if your mouth harp is tuned low enough to have both the 16th and 32nd harmonic in your range (e.g. C2), that is a chromatic octave right there (16 17 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 27 29 30 32)
Taking a look at the chart we currently have, it says a "tenor" mouth harp (not sure what that means) has a range from the 4th harmonic to the 12th harmonic. This is a factor of x3 between the lowest and highest note. My roughly 500 Hz - 3000 Hz range is a factor of x6. Unless I happen to have double the range of a normal human (and I don't think this likely), this chart is just plain wrong. There is no way to my knowledge to design a mouth harp that is limited to this range, you will either be able to go below 4, or above 12.
sources: Me, as a player of the instrument, and varganist.ru
I would like to edit this article to make changes regarding these things. But I'm hesitant to proceed without some guidance. I'm not sure if I should try to add a different note thing to replace the old one, nor am I sure how much of the information above is appropriate to include, as this is Wikipedia, not a mouth harp playing guide.
Mason Mackaman ( talk) 18:23, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Page moved to alternative Jew's harp. Consensus emerged for the alternative name. ( closed by non-admin page mover) -- Dane talk 01:39, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Jaw harp → Jew's Harp – The name, Jew's Harp has been firmly established in academia and international festivals which focus on the instrument. It is still the most common active name.
The International Jews Harp Congress, the only international festival of its kind which unites jews harps musicians, academics, blacksmiths, and fans took place in Berlin, Germany on July 27, 2022. https://jewsharpsociety.org/9th-international-festival https://www.ufafabrik.de/en/20343/9-internationales-maultrommelfestival.html
There is a lengthy review of this exact controversy in the beginning Micheal Wright's book, The Jews-Harp in Britain and Ireland, published in 2015. https://www.routledge.com/The-Jews-Harp-in-Britain-and-Ireland/Wright/p/book/9781472414137
Diedre Morgan has published her thesis on the instrument in 2017. The title, "Speaking in Tongues: Music, Identity, and Representation in Jew's Harp Communities." She too, goes in great detail regarding why she chose to use the name, Jew's Harp over any alternative name. Her new book is entitled, "Jew’s Harps and Metal: Folk Traditions in Global Modernity" is due to be published in the upcoming years. https://www.academia.edu/35053173/Speaking_in_Tongues_Music_Identity_and_Representation_in_Jews_Harp_Communities_PhD_dissertation_ https://www.deirdremorgan.com/news/2022/10/24/new-book-under-contract-with-routledge-jews-harps-amp-metal-music-folk-traditions-in-global-modernity 24.150.179.240 ( talk) 21:27, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
if there's a chance that a name can be offensive when a suitable alternative exists, then I prefer the neutral alternative.Even if almost nobody ever uses it? -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:45, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Article titles should be neither vulgar (unless unavoidable) nor pedantic. When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others. Oh come on, you know that defining an instrument as a "Jew's" harp can be potentially offensive. Why? I Ask ( talk) 17:31, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Oh come on, you know that defining an instrument as a "Jew's" harp can be potentially offensive.Why would it be? Given that "Jew" is not considered to be an offensive term? It's no more offensive than French horn! -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:52, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
Is it possible to damage your enamel by playing it? 37.47.201.21 ( talk) 23:45, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a clear absence of consensus in favor of the proposed move, and sufficient opposition to the move to make relisting unlikely to result in a different outcome. BD2412 T 18:54, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
Jew's harp → Jaw harp – "Jew harp" has only 3,50,000 results, "Jew's harp" has only 1,75,000 results, but "Jaw harp" has 6,50,000 results on Google, while "Mouth harp" has 5,42,000 results.
"Jaw harp" is the WP:COMMONNAME.
Not only that, but "Jew's harp" is treated as anti-semitic by a number of sources. [8] [9] This is yet another reason why we should avoid using this title. REDISCOVERBHARAT ( talk) 05:30, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Article titles should be neither vulgar (unless unavoidable) nor pedantic. When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others. Paintspot Infez ( talk) 02:38, 20 March 2024 (UTC)