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And why do you think that Greater Armenia (political concept) should not be included in this page? Also take a look at WP:OWN VartanM ( talk) 23:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Gegelia, I acknowledged you request as valid as the article Greater Armenia (political concept) had no link to this article. This has been corrected. Now both articles have links to each other. Steelmate ( talk) 23:03, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Congratulations! Javakheti is a great article. Although, it needs improvement... I think the Greater Armenia is a greater concept and Javakheti should be kept small and as a separate article... I wish that more Armenians would show interest in Armenian history because if we don't know Armenian history, the Georgians, the Turks, and the Azerbaijanis would try to make claims to lands and structures that were part of Armenian history and should belong to the Armenians... For example, Lord Tatchat Azordats was the Castellan of Azord in Tayk, Lord Sahak Arsian was the Castellan of Artanuj in Tayk, Lord Hmayak, Lord Tathul, and Lord Musheg were Dimaksean Nobles, and they owned Bughkha or Boghkha territory in Tayk, Lord Sahak Arsian was the Castellan of Artanuj in Tayk, Lord Tathul and Lord Arhavan Vanandi owned Vanand and they were the Castellans of Kars, Lord Arshavir Kamsarakan, he was married to Lord Vardan Mamikonian's daghter, and he was the Castellan of Ani, Lord Khurs Gardmanian was the Castellan of Gardman, Lord Arshavar Arsharuni owned Arsharunik, Lord Hmayak Ashotsean and the Castellan of the Ashotsk, Lord Vahram Shirakatsi was the Lord of Shirak and Kangark, Lord Dirots Bagratuni was the Lord of Bagrevand, and the Gardmanian or Gardmantsi Nobles of Gardman, the Aranean Nobles of Arran of Aluank, the Gugaratsi Nobles of Gugark, and etc. They all were Armenian, but I read about Bagrationi, Arsiani, Dimaksiani, and others whom the Georgians claim as Georgian Nobles, and the Azeri claim Gardman, Arran, and other lands as lands of Azerbaijan, and that really upsets me that they lie publicly and get away with their lies... Armenians should wake up and start caring about what's Armenian and what should be Armenian, instead of talking about Greater Armenia without truly understanding what it means.
I added three paragraphs to the Javakheti article, provided references for my paragraphs, and I am entering it for discussion. I added the paragraphs 1, 3, and 4 and I pasted my paragraphs below for discussion.
According to history of Armenia and Georgia, Javakhos was the son of Metskheta and the grandson of Kartlos. Kartlos was one of the brothers of Hayk and the son of Torgom or Togarmah. Torgom was a descendant of Japheth, Tor-Gom meaning Torgom was the grandson of Gomer because Tiras was the son of Gomer and Torgom, Riphath, and Askanaz were the sons of Tiras. Hayk (the Forefather of Armenian)and his brothers, Kartlos, Bardos, Movakan, Lekan, Heros, Caucas, and Egros, together with their sons fought against the armies of Nimrod Bel. Hayk killed Bel in that battle, after which Hayk's brothers and Bel's subjects stopped the war and recognized Hayk as the King. (See www.rbedrosian.com and type in Bardos and click search; read Chapter 1. Armenia Before It Became Armenia, by Ghevond Alishan, published in 1904 in Venetia. History of Armenia, by Movses Khorenatsi, published in 1913 in Tbilisi. Armenian Mythology, by Mardiros Ananikian, Chapter Ten, Part One.
In the sources the region was recorded as Zabakha in 785 BC by the king Argishti I of Urartu. According to Georgian historians, Javakheti was one of the major places of Kingdom of Kartli from ancient times citation needed and was in between of both East Georgian and West Georgian cultural and historical elements (Javakheti, as the whole south-western typonomic of Georgia has elements of Zani Language citation needed). Historical Javakheti was divided as Upper javakheti ( Akhalkalaki plateau) and lowland Javakheti (with canyon on left side of Mtkvari River). citation needed
According to Movses Khorenatsi, Ushar Shirakatsi served King Vagharshak| Valarsaces of Armenia. King Valarsaces of Armenia was the brother of King Arsaces of Parthian Persia. For his bravery and loyalty, Ushar and the Shirakatsi Nobles received the lands in northern Armenia, from Tashir to Tayk south of Kur River, including Gugark, Shirak, Kangark (Eastern Javakheti and Ashotsk) and Koghb|Kola (presently District of Göle, in Turkey) near Tayk Province. References: History of Armenia, by Movses Khorenatsi, published in 1913 in Tbilisi.
Javakh and Tayk, together with Gugark, Lori, Gardman, Parisos, Artsakh, Syunik, Vaspurakan, Moks, Sasun, Taron, Turuberan, and Ayrarat, were part of the Bagratuni Kingdom of Armenia, an independent state established by Ashot I Bagratuni in 885. See Wikipedia article: Bagratuni Kingdom of Armenia.
Please share your thoughts about the three paragraphs that I added. I appreciate your feedback!
Sincerely,
Garegin Nalbandian
There is nothing said about ethnic cleansing of Muslim Georgians ( Javakhs )in Javakheti in the 19th century after Russians came. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.73.160.100 ( talk) 11:21, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
In the introduction of this article I see the Georgians eagerly start it off as "historical province of Georgia". Just because Javakhk is currently within the borders of Georgia, it does not mean that it is a "historical province of Georgia". In the same way much of Armenia's historic lands today are in other countries, it does not mean they were that way in history, or even that those countries existed in the first place to have "historic provinces". 99.7.123.116 ( talk) 20:51, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
The line, According to the context, we are talking here about different Caucasian tribes, and it is entirely obvious that the historian does not consider the Gugars to be an Armenian tribe under the '5th reference' seems inaccurate. Is it from a translit-titled commentary "Istoria Armenii Favstosa Buzanda" of an unknown author? I don't think so. There are sources on the web telling that there is a 1912 publication of the work in Tbilisi, but nothing about Faustus's 1913 publication. So I'll make proper edits. 46.241.130.16 ( talk) 18:48, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:36, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Please instead or revert write down your arguments why it should be used as equal to Georgian name? When it is definitely not a WP:commonname -- g. balaxaZe ★ 18:44, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
I have already said so many times that what you did was not a compromise but still a reversion back to your changes but only with Yerevantsi's sources. You still removed the information. The discussions I was talking about are Talk:Georgia (country)#Topography map and Template talk:Location map Georgia and while I was waiting for your response I saw that you were still editing and active on Wikipedia, so your sarcastic comment about having other things to do besides Wikipedia isn't really valid. Also, I do check the Georgia and its two breakaway republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia articles quite often after the two discussions that you and I had regarding the issue of disputed borders, so no it is not me hounding you. -- Turnless ( talk) 22:01, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
I am up to discuss @EtienneDolet.
One of the earliest Armenian sources, Faustus of Byzantium (the 5th century) writes: “Maskut King Sanesan, extremely angry, was filled with hate for his tribesman, Armenian King Khosrow, and gathered all of his troops—Huns, Pokhs, Tavaspars, Khechmataks, Izhmakhs, Gats, Gluars, Gugars, Shichbs, Chilbs, Balasich, and Egersvans, as well as an uncountable number of other diverse nomadic tribes, all the numerous troops he commanded. He crossed his border, the great River Kura, and invaded the Armenian country.” [1]
Can you elaborate how is this related to Javakheti article?
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 19:25, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Javakheti article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
And why do you think that Greater Armenia (political concept) should not be included in this page? Also take a look at WP:OWN VartanM ( talk) 23:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Gegelia, I acknowledged you request as valid as the article Greater Armenia (political concept) had no link to this article. This has been corrected. Now both articles have links to each other. Steelmate ( talk) 23:03, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Congratulations! Javakheti is a great article. Although, it needs improvement... I think the Greater Armenia is a greater concept and Javakheti should be kept small and as a separate article... I wish that more Armenians would show interest in Armenian history because if we don't know Armenian history, the Georgians, the Turks, and the Azerbaijanis would try to make claims to lands and structures that were part of Armenian history and should belong to the Armenians... For example, Lord Tatchat Azordats was the Castellan of Azord in Tayk, Lord Sahak Arsian was the Castellan of Artanuj in Tayk, Lord Hmayak, Lord Tathul, and Lord Musheg were Dimaksean Nobles, and they owned Bughkha or Boghkha territory in Tayk, Lord Sahak Arsian was the Castellan of Artanuj in Tayk, Lord Tathul and Lord Arhavan Vanandi owned Vanand and they were the Castellans of Kars, Lord Arshavir Kamsarakan, he was married to Lord Vardan Mamikonian's daghter, and he was the Castellan of Ani, Lord Khurs Gardmanian was the Castellan of Gardman, Lord Arshavar Arsharuni owned Arsharunik, Lord Hmayak Ashotsean and the Castellan of the Ashotsk, Lord Vahram Shirakatsi was the Lord of Shirak and Kangark, Lord Dirots Bagratuni was the Lord of Bagrevand, and the Gardmanian or Gardmantsi Nobles of Gardman, the Aranean Nobles of Arran of Aluank, the Gugaratsi Nobles of Gugark, and etc. They all were Armenian, but I read about Bagrationi, Arsiani, Dimaksiani, and others whom the Georgians claim as Georgian Nobles, and the Azeri claim Gardman, Arran, and other lands as lands of Azerbaijan, and that really upsets me that they lie publicly and get away with their lies... Armenians should wake up and start caring about what's Armenian and what should be Armenian, instead of talking about Greater Armenia without truly understanding what it means.
I added three paragraphs to the Javakheti article, provided references for my paragraphs, and I am entering it for discussion. I added the paragraphs 1, 3, and 4 and I pasted my paragraphs below for discussion.
According to history of Armenia and Georgia, Javakhos was the son of Metskheta and the grandson of Kartlos. Kartlos was one of the brothers of Hayk and the son of Torgom or Togarmah. Torgom was a descendant of Japheth, Tor-Gom meaning Torgom was the grandson of Gomer because Tiras was the son of Gomer and Torgom, Riphath, and Askanaz were the sons of Tiras. Hayk (the Forefather of Armenian)and his brothers, Kartlos, Bardos, Movakan, Lekan, Heros, Caucas, and Egros, together with their sons fought against the armies of Nimrod Bel. Hayk killed Bel in that battle, after which Hayk's brothers and Bel's subjects stopped the war and recognized Hayk as the King. (See www.rbedrosian.com and type in Bardos and click search; read Chapter 1. Armenia Before It Became Armenia, by Ghevond Alishan, published in 1904 in Venetia. History of Armenia, by Movses Khorenatsi, published in 1913 in Tbilisi. Armenian Mythology, by Mardiros Ananikian, Chapter Ten, Part One.
In the sources the region was recorded as Zabakha in 785 BC by the king Argishti I of Urartu. According to Georgian historians, Javakheti was one of the major places of Kingdom of Kartli from ancient times citation needed and was in between of both East Georgian and West Georgian cultural and historical elements (Javakheti, as the whole south-western typonomic of Georgia has elements of Zani Language citation needed). Historical Javakheti was divided as Upper javakheti ( Akhalkalaki plateau) and lowland Javakheti (with canyon on left side of Mtkvari River). citation needed
According to Movses Khorenatsi, Ushar Shirakatsi served King Vagharshak| Valarsaces of Armenia. King Valarsaces of Armenia was the brother of King Arsaces of Parthian Persia. For his bravery and loyalty, Ushar and the Shirakatsi Nobles received the lands in northern Armenia, from Tashir to Tayk south of Kur River, including Gugark, Shirak, Kangark (Eastern Javakheti and Ashotsk) and Koghb|Kola (presently District of Göle, in Turkey) near Tayk Province. References: History of Armenia, by Movses Khorenatsi, published in 1913 in Tbilisi.
Javakh and Tayk, together with Gugark, Lori, Gardman, Parisos, Artsakh, Syunik, Vaspurakan, Moks, Sasun, Taron, Turuberan, and Ayrarat, were part of the Bagratuni Kingdom of Armenia, an independent state established by Ashot I Bagratuni in 885. See Wikipedia article: Bagratuni Kingdom of Armenia.
Please share your thoughts about the three paragraphs that I added. I appreciate your feedback!
Sincerely,
Garegin Nalbandian
There is nothing said about ethnic cleansing of Muslim Georgians ( Javakhs )in Javakheti in the 19th century after Russians came. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.73.160.100 ( talk) 11:21, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
In the introduction of this article I see the Georgians eagerly start it off as "historical province of Georgia". Just because Javakhk is currently within the borders of Georgia, it does not mean that it is a "historical province of Georgia". In the same way much of Armenia's historic lands today are in other countries, it does not mean they were that way in history, or even that those countries existed in the first place to have "historic provinces". 99.7.123.116 ( talk) 20:51, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
The line, According to the context, we are talking here about different Caucasian tribes, and it is entirely obvious that the historian does not consider the Gugars to be an Armenian tribe under the '5th reference' seems inaccurate. Is it from a translit-titled commentary "Istoria Armenii Favstosa Buzanda" of an unknown author? I don't think so. There are sources on the web telling that there is a 1912 publication of the work in Tbilisi, but nothing about Faustus's 1913 publication. So I'll make proper edits. 46.241.130.16 ( talk) 18:48, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Javakheti. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:36, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Please instead or revert write down your arguments why it should be used as equal to Georgian name? When it is definitely not a WP:commonname -- g. balaxaZe ★ 18:44, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
I have already said so many times that what you did was not a compromise but still a reversion back to your changes but only with Yerevantsi's sources. You still removed the information. The discussions I was talking about are Talk:Georgia (country)#Topography map and Template talk:Location map Georgia and while I was waiting for your response I saw that you were still editing and active on Wikipedia, so your sarcastic comment about having other things to do besides Wikipedia isn't really valid. Also, I do check the Georgia and its two breakaway republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia articles quite often after the two discussions that you and I had regarding the issue of disputed borders, so no it is not me hounding you. -- Turnless ( talk) 22:01, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
I am up to discuss @EtienneDolet.
One of the earliest Armenian sources, Faustus of Byzantium (the 5th century) writes: “Maskut King Sanesan, extremely angry, was filled with hate for his tribesman, Armenian King Khosrow, and gathered all of his troops—Huns, Pokhs, Tavaspars, Khechmataks, Izhmakhs, Gats, Gluars, Gugars, Shichbs, Chilbs, Balasich, and Egersvans, as well as an uncountable number of other diverse nomadic tribes, all the numerous troops he commanded. He crossed his border, the great River Kura, and invaded the Armenian country.” [1]
Can you elaborate how is this related to Javakheti article?
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 19:25, 25 November 2020 (UTC)