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Text and/or other creative content from Labour camp Jastrebarsko was copied or moved into Jastrebarsko concentration camp with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
This article is currently the subject of an educational assignment. |
It is requested that a freely-licensed photograph of the "Mother and Child" monument in Jastrebarsko cemetery (see
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A short description of the concentration camp should probably be added to the article on Jastrebarsko. Joekrie ( talk) 19:54, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
It appears that the article on Labour camp Jastrebarsko is covering the same topic as this article. This one appears to me to be further along, and to have a better formed title. I'd like to suggest that the other article be merged into this one. EastTN ( talk) 15:25, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Where a source differs from the information already in the article, the appropriate course of action is to compare and contrast the material, not override one source with another. Fumic clearly states that the head of the camp was Sister Pulherija, and makes no mention of Gaudencija. There are some other poor editing practices, such as combining refs to make it look like all the information in the paragraph comes from both sources, whereas some of it only comes from one. This makes it difficult to break up paras properly if more information is added. Also, you've split a para which was cited to Fumic, then almost unbelievably, stuck a cn tag on the first para which you created by splitting the existing para. Please learn to compare and contrast conflicting information, closely cite information you add, and follow basic wikiquette. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 03:16, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
It is not clear what makes Budak's conviction and sentence relevant to this article. Was he tried and sentenced for matters relating to this camp? If so, all that information (with appropriate sourcing) should be added to an Aftermath section. If not, it is really not relevant and shouldn't be included beyond the fact that his sister-in-law was the camp director. I've removed it for now. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 03:47, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
@Peacemaker67: The following is, for lack of a better word, oxymoronic:
was not in coastal village of Jablanac near town of Senj. It was hamlet of Jasenovac municipality of village Mlaka by name Jablanac Jasenovački, which was village for itself untill WW2, and in a war as serb village in Jasenovac contrentration camp area was totaly destroyed and not renovated after the war. Village of Jablanac was located southeast of Mlaka. http://hr.geoview.info/jablanac_jasenovacki,3199008 -- Rethymno ( talk) 01:26, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Hi, I did a little digging and was able to find an additional source:
Vulesica, Marija (2011). "Lager-Wachpersonal oder Pflegekräfte? Kinderheim oder Kinderlager? Ordensschwestern in Jastrebarsko in Kroatien 1942". In Benz, Angelika; Vulesica, Marija (eds.). Bewachung und Ausführung: Alltag der Täter in nationalsozialistischen Lagern. Berlin: Metropol Verlag. pp. 87–100.
This is a chapter in a book (the book is a result of an academic conference organized by the museum Topography of Terror) about Nazi concentration camps that also has several chapters about camps set up by German puppet states, including one on Jasenovac and this one. Vulesica is a German historian at TU Berlin with a focus on anti-Semitism and the Balkans. The chapter mostly corroborates information already in the article, but also has a slightly different take on a few things.
Can you read German, Peacemaker? If so, I can scan the chapter and send it to you. If not, I'll go through it and look at what might be added to the article.-- Carabinieri ( talk) 22:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
I've finally gotten around to writing up what I see as the major points of disagreement between Vulesica and our article.
The biggest disagreement is that she doesn't consider Jastrebarsko a concentration camp. She discusses the question at length and according to her neither of the terms "children's home" or "children's camp" are entirely appropriate, but the former is slightly more fitting. I don't think she's trying to deny or downplay the Ustase's crimes. She does consider Jasenovac and Sisak concentration camps. She also says that at least 500 children died and that "the hygiene and food [in Jastrebarsko] were only marginally better than in the concentration camps and children's camps". So, I'd be reluctant to dismiss this as being politically motivated. Her case for not calling Jastrebarsko a camp, let alone a concentration camp, (she actually takes a swipe at German Wikipedia, because their article like ours calls Jastrebarsko a concentration camp) is that Budisavljevic and Brössler's intention when they brought the children to Jastrebarsko was to get them out of the concentration camps and protect them. According to her, the Ustase put up a considerable resistance against this and Brössler had fight to get their approval. She mentions that Brössler testified that he only used the Catholic Church in order to protect the children, because the Ustase trusted the Church.
There are a few more minor differences, some of which are related:
I'm not exactly sure what to do with this and I'd be interested in hearing your reactions.-- Carabinieri ( talk) 03:33, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
"The historian Ivan Fumić concludes that"... Strictly speaking, Fumić is not a (professional) historian. By occupation, he is a military judge. [1] To the general public, he is best known as a president of the Croatia's Association of Anti-Fascist Fighters and Anti-Fascists, which is also the publisher of his books. I'm not disputing his use as a source here, only the wording. GregorB ( talk) 06:51, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
I have to ask why is it tolerated here that Ustashaphiles edit and destroy articles? Let's not play with terms. Let's call this camp by its real name.
https://www.elibrary.ru/item.asp?id=44382728
Sabrina P. Ramet, The three Yugoslavias : state-building and legitimation, 1918-2005, Washington, D.C. Bloomington, IN, Woodrow Wilson Center Press Indiana University Press, 2006, 817 p. (ISBN 978-0-253-34656-8, OCLC 805097343, lire en ligne [archive]).
https://jasenovac-donjagradina.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/zbornik_kozara.pdf p126
Dragoje Lukić, Rat i djeca Kozare, Beograd-Prijedor-Jasenovac, 1990.
IMPORTANT: Some of the sources as well as the names of the witnesses are listed in this lecture (SERBO-CROATIAN LANGUAGE) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOTPNnn9nuo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.153.104 ( talk) 14:06, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Eyewitness survivors' testimony
Chapter (title copy/paste. Capital letters are in the book) : Zorka Skiba -DJECA ZATVORENICI KLERO-USTAŠKIH KONCENTRACIONIH LOGORA U HRVATSKOJ U DRUGOM SVJETSKOM RATU pp 163 (translation: Zorka Skiba - CHILDREN PRISONERS OF CLERO-USTAS CONCENTRATION CAMPS IN CROATIA IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR)
https://jasenovac-donjagradina.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/zbornik_kozara.pdf
If you don't know the Cyrillic alphabet, you can convert it to Latin.
https://www.konvertor.co.rs/
Also, Google translate from Serbo-Croatian to English is decent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.153.104 ( talk) 14:15, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jastrebarsko children's camp article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Jastrebarsko children's camp has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Text and/or other creative content from Labour camp Jastrebarsko was copied or moved into Jastrebarsko concentration camp with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
This article is currently the subject of an educational assignment. |
It is requested that a freely-licensed photograph of the "Mother and Child" monument in Jastrebarsko cemetery (see
this be
included in this article to replace copyrighted images in order to better comply with our
policy for non-free content. Many copyright-free image sources are listed at
Wikimedia Commons, or you could create your own. Alternatively, you may
request permission from the copyright holder of the original images to release them under a free license.
The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
A short description of the concentration camp should probably be added to the article on Jastrebarsko. Joekrie ( talk) 19:54, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
It appears that the article on Labour camp Jastrebarsko is covering the same topic as this article. This one appears to me to be further along, and to have a better formed title. I'd like to suggest that the other article be merged into this one. EastTN ( talk) 15:25, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Where a source differs from the information already in the article, the appropriate course of action is to compare and contrast the material, not override one source with another. Fumic clearly states that the head of the camp was Sister Pulherija, and makes no mention of Gaudencija. There are some other poor editing practices, such as combining refs to make it look like all the information in the paragraph comes from both sources, whereas some of it only comes from one. This makes it difficult to break up paras properly if more information is added. Also, you've split a para which was cited to Fumic, then almost unbelievably, stuck a cn tag on the first para which you created by splitting the existing para. Please learn to compare and contrast conflicting information, closely cite information you add, and follow basic wikiquette. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 03:16, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
It is not clear what makes Budak's conviction and sentence relevant to this article. Was he tried and sentenced for matters relating to this camp? If so, all that information (with appropriate sourcing) should be added to an Aftermath section. If not, it is really not relevant and shouldn't be included beyond the fact that his sister-in-law was the camp director. I've removed it for now. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 03:47, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
@Peacemaker67: The following is, for lack of a better word, oxymoronic:
was not in coastal village of Jablanac near town of Senj. It was hamlet of Jasenovac municipality of village Mlaka by name Jablanac Jasenovački, which was village for itself untill WW2, and in a war as serb village in Jasenovac contrentration camp area was totaly destroyed and not renovated after the war. Village of Jablanac was located southeast of Mlaka. http://hr.geoview.info/jablanac_jasenovacki,3199008 -- Rethymno ( talk) 01:26, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Hi, I did a little digging and was able to find an additional source:
Vulesica, Marija (2011). "Lager-Wachpersonal oder Pflegekräfte? Kinderheim oder Kinderlager? Ordensschwestern in Jastrebarsko in Kroatien 1942". In Benz, Angelika; Vulesica, Marija (eds.). Bewachung und Ausführung: Alltag der Täter in nationalsozialistischen Lagern. Berlin: Metropol Verlag. pp. 87–100.
This is a chapter in a book (the book is a result of an academic conference organized by the museum Topography of Terror) about Nazi concentration camps that also has several chapters about camps set up by German puppet states, including one on Jasenovac and this one. Vulesica is a German historian at TU Berlin with a focus on anti-Semitism and the Balkans. The chapter mostly corroborates information already in the article, but also has a slightly different take on a few things.
Can you read German, Peacemaker? If so, I can scan the chapter and send it to you. If not, I'll go through it and look at what might be added to the article.-- Carabinieri ( talk) 22:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
I've finally gotten around to writing up what I see as the major points of disagreement between Vulesica and our article.
The biggest disagreement is that she doesn't consider Jastrebarsko a concentration camp. She discusses the question at length and according to her neither of the terms "children's home" or "children's camp" are entirely appropriate, but the former is slightly more fitting. I don't think she's trying to deny or downplay the Ustase's crimes. She does consider Jasenovac and Sisak concentration camps. She also says that at least 500 children died and that "the hygiene and food [in Jastrebarsko] were only marginally better than in the concentration camps and children's camps". So, I'd be reluctant to dismiss this as being politically motivated. Her case for not calling Jastrebarsko a camp, let alone a concentration camp, (she actually takes a swipe at German Wikipedia, because their article like ours calls Jastrebarsko a concentration camp) is that Budisavljevic and Brössler's intention when they brought the children to Jastrebarsko was to get them out of the concentration camps and protect them. According to her, the Ustase put up a considerable resistance against this and Brössler had fight to get their approval. She mentions that Brössler testified that he only used the Catholic Church in order to protect the children, because the Ustase trusted the Church.
There are a few more minor differences, some of which are related:
I'm not exactly sure what to do with this and I'd be interested in hearing your reactions.-- Carabinieri ( talk) 03:33, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
"The historian Ivan Fumić concludes that"... Strictly speaking, Fumić is not a (professional) historian. By occupation, he is a military judge. [1] To the general public, he is best known as a president of the Croatia's Association of Anti-Fascist Fighters and Anti-Fascists, which is also the publisher of his books. I'm not disputing his use as a source here, only the wording. GregorB ( talk) 06:51, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
I have to ask why is it tolerated here that Ustashaphiles edit and destroy articles? Let's not play with terms. Let's call this camp by its real name.
https://www.elibrary.ru/item.asp?id=44382728
Sabrina P. Ramet, The three Yugoslavias : state-building and legitimation, 1918-2005, Washington, D.C. Bloomington, IN, Woodrow Wilson Center Press Indiana University Press, 2006, 817 p. (ISBN 978-0-253-34656-8, OCLC 805097343, lire en ligne [archive]).
https://jasenovac-donjagradina.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/zbornik_kozara.pdf p126
Dragoje Lukić, Rat i djeca Kozare, Beograd-Prijedor-Jasenovac, 1990.
IMPORTANT: Some of the sources as well as the names of the witnesses are listed in this lecture (SERBO-CROATIAN LANGUAGE) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOTPNnn9nuo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.153.104 ( talk) 14:06, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Eyewitness survivors' testimony
Chapter (title copy/paste. Capital letters are in the book) : Zorka Skiba -DJECA ZATVORENICI KLERO-USTAŠKIH KONCENTRACIONIH LOGORA U HRVATSKOJ U DRUGOM SVJETSKOM RATU pp 163 (translation: Zorka Skiba - CHILDREN PRISONERS OF CLERO-USTAS CONCENTRATION CAMPS IN CROATIA IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR)
https://jasenovac-donjagradina.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/zbornik_kozara.pdf
If you don't know the Cyrillic alphabet, you can convert it to Latin.
https://www.konvertor.co.rs/
Also, Google translate from Serbo-Croatian to English is decent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.153.104 ( talk) 14:15, 3 December 2021 (UTC)