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Can someone rewrite this to reflect the proper historical root, using citations from the Torah instead of Biblical derivations (i.e. notice all the quotes are from KJV)? Cowbert ( talk) 17:11, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I wonder who are 'the Finns' because nobody haven't tried to guess who are they related to... --Ou
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ouagadougou ( talk • contribs) 19:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
HJ, what on earth are you doing with Ham, Sem, and Japhet? Who are 'the Europeans'? Are you asserting this to be (a) true, (b) a piece of authentic Biblical text, (c) a piece of folklore? The least you could suggest is "in some interpretations of material from the Book of Genesis," because otherwise we'll assume that you're very poorly informed about history. I hesitate to point out, because this may be a joke on your part, that the Bible's version of anthropology and ethnology is even LESS trustworthy than Claudius Ptolemy, whom you seem to believe about something he called 'magna Germania'. Oh - and you mispelled 'Israelis' on the Sem entry. --MichaelTinkler
I think he means Shem, Ham, and Japeth. They are the three sons of Noah mentioned in Genesis (chapters 6 and following). But I agree the stubs are very stubby. Ed Poor Also, there are some theories that the descendants of Ham went to Africa and eventually become the modern blacks. I think these theories are regarded as "racist".
Ham is significant in Unification Church theology, because he incited his brothers to cover up Noah's nakedness. This is considered a sin by the church, but it is unrelated to the "racial" theories (which I would prefer not to see aired). Ed Poor
The Japhet needs to be combined with Japheth , engl. spelling. MichaelTinkler, I see that you did not stay away for very long. HaHa?. Answer to all From ca 1890 German Pierer's Lexikon .Japhet(h) (hebrew :fare distant spreading out), third son of Noah. Is considered the Stammvater father of whom descend the Meder, Armenians, Greeks, Kelts, Germans, and Slavs , all together called Japhet(h)ites. Is the Japetos of the Greek legends. website , outside link : Uni-Press, Bern Switzerland: http://publicrelations.unibe.ch/unipress/heft104/beitrag10.html from booklet 104 April 2000 Die Wiedergeburt der Kartographie , The Rebirth of Cartography 500 years ago, first "world map" of 1472 showing Noah's sons S(h)em , Ham , Japhet(h). You can answer for yourself what is true and what isn't. H. Jonat
It doesn't matter whether the 1890 view is true or not. Just please rewrite the article, so that readers know who said it. Ed Poor
No, it does matter whether it's true. But it can be mentioned as, "people used to believe" with a citation.
Even on the 'people used to believe' front this entry was pretty bad. I tried to qualify it a little. I totally cut the absurd 19th century parallel between Japeth and Iapetos. If someone who understands comparative religion (unlike whoever wrote the initial mess) wants to rewrite it as an example of Interpretatio Romana that at least would be interesting. Japeth - human son of human father, putative ancestor of other people. Iapetos - divine son of Mother Earth, putative ancestor of other divine people. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, even if the first 2 syllables are somewhat similar. The assumption of pre-modern scholars that any similarity was better than nothing and is enough to at least speculate about is no longer acceptable. It can be, I guess, reported as 'folks used to believe,' but it must be qualified as such.
By the way does anyone know exactly what evidence there is to suggest that the Tubals and Meshechs spoke a Proto-Iberian language and were not originally rather Indoeuropean tribal designations? Zestauferov 06:52, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
This article seems a bit biased in that it takes the Biblical view as truth but does not state that view is not necessarily the real truth. Perhaps it is also worth noting the Piter/pitr/whathaveyou means father... even though the connection between Japheth and Jupiter is tenuous at best. D.E. Cottrell 05:39, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Apparently, Japhetic=Japhethitic Gringo300 19:02, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My point is exactly what I said. Well, to me the term "Japhethitic" comes across as the more logical term to use. Gringo300 00:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How about Ja Phethitic (Ya Pathetic)! I would like to know why tradition says Ham died at 536 and i cant find a Japheth tradition. 172.59.185.166 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 09:12, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Any objections to taking most of the "race" material on this page and moving it to Japhetic, to mirror Hamitic and Semitic entries? Jokestress 20:03, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Is Gepetto (the golem-maker) a form of Japheth?
OK, the disputed sentence is as follows "The term "Japhetic" was also applied by William Jones and other pre-Darwinian linguists to what later became known as the Indo-European language group.". Note that the point is not that there is some sort of "linguistics" that is pre- or post-Darwinian, but that there are linguists who are. It's about how they make assumptions about the historical context in which their linguistic models function - as clues to ancient human migations. Post-Darwin the bible-based model fade from academia. Of course Darwin is not the only cause. There were a complex of scientific and scholarly reasons why the Bible ceased to accepted as a basis for judging events in ancient history, but Darwin is a useful shorthand for that process, which explains the difference between Jones, who explicitly tried to fit linguistically-derived models of migrations into a Biblical model, and, say, Max Muller, who avoids the issue. It's relevant to this article because it's about why "Japhetic" faded in significance as a synonym for "Indo-European". Paul B 22:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Codex Sinaiticus, I did not get that information out of the "Book of Jasher", I have never even heard of it!, I got the information off of the first website listed under "External Links". I stopped deleting Irish off of Magog, so will you stopped writing what I wrote as the Book of Jasher? Thank You. -- CSArebel-- November 14, 2006
I do not see how a link to the M-word is relevant to this article. User:Paul Barlow claims it is relevant. I suppose he will answer me here.---- Dark Tea 10:27, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
The Jutes & Goths sound like the Jatts, Jati and Gotra of India. Sanskrit is very similar to ancient Persian which we known came from Central Asia. In the south of India they speak the Dravidian language type which is believed to have been spoken over all of India prior to the spread of Sanskrit based languages and Dravidian is believed to have been connected to the Elamite language that was once spoken in western Iran.
In ancient history there is often reference to tribes entering Europe from Asia and it is believed that the Slavs and Macedonians etc may have come from these people.
The original inhabitants of the British Isles are believed to have originally come from the Mediterranean and are known as the beaker people. This would explain the Canaanite words found in Welsh which have lead people to draw a connection with Wales to the lost tribes of Judah.
In France and Spain the people known as Basques speak a language not connected to Indo-European and they claim to be the original inhabitants. There were also other language types found in Northern Russia and Italy and the islands off Greece.
There have even been blonde haired Caucasian mummies found in western China that date prior to the Mongoloid people arriving. It seems the people of Central Asia who once occupied a large area of Central Asia were pushed west and south by Turkic speaking Mongoloid people.
Could the Mongoloid eyelid, the fewer sweat glands and less body hair be something to do with being coastal people?
Could the sons of Shem be references to the original Caucasian racial type hence the Indo-European and also the Elamites (Western Iran), Jews, Arabs, Armenians, Chaldeans (Iraq & Syria) are also Caucasian in racial appearances? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk) 15:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems coincidental that there are three sons and in truth there are three racial types.
Mongoloid Caucasoid Afroid
Australoid and other types are believed to be a mix racial type, perhaps mongoloid and Afroid.
All mentions of the decendents of Ham tend to be African type people. Mantions of Shemites i.e. Elamites (Elam), Armenian (Aram), Chaldians & Syrians (Peleg) are Caucasoid.
So it is fair to consider the possibility that this is a reference to the three racial types populating of the Earth.
There is even a belief that the original Javanites (Crete) could have been Mongoloid. They mixed with the Caucasiods of mainland Greece. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsigano ( talk • contribs) 17:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Someone here needs glasses, they document the scythians as descendants of Gomer AND Magog. ? How can Magog be the descendant of the blonde scythians AND another VERY distincet race of people ? Also note, there is absolutely NO mention of the Native American peoples. There are FOUR distinct races of people, and the 6th and 7th book of Moses which the Orthodox Roman Catholic Church hid from humanity documents that there were originally 72 nations of people. Somebodies not telling us something here ! Chica Geronimo — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chica geronimo ( talk • contribs) 18:52, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
> I don't understand why does his name is spelld in Arabic as well, it didn't come from Arabic sources...
Typically, most Abrahamic traditions are reflected both in Hebrew and Arabic history, with their own canonical spellings (as they share the same linguistic root - see Semetic). Because the Tanakh also became canonized into the Christian tradition, everything tends to have a corresponding Greek (Koine) and (Old) Latin translations as well (via the Septuagint). Cowbert ( talk) 12:43, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Ignores the Armenian or Georgian chronicles. See Article Togarmah —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.250.7.85 ( talk) 11:25, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Just go through my edits and see if there's anything there you think worth having. PiCo ( talk) 01:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
The sons of jefet are mainly the turco-mongolic races. all the central asians are the sons of shem. please look carefully in josefus' and stop with this anachronism.
Is there a source (apocryphal or otherwise) for the age of Japheth at the time of his death? Robert McClenon ( talk) 21:48, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Whoever keeps changing the FACT of Japheth's age please stop! Not only is your assertion that Japheth was the youngest of Noah's children Wrong, you cite Scripture that clearly states Japheth was the oldest and Ham was the youngest!!! Incorrect facts and incorrect citations give Wikipedia a bad reputation!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.190.83 ( talk) 22:54, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
The connection apparently comes from Genesis 9:27, "May God enlarge Japheth, and let him dwell in the tents of Shem, and let Canaan be his servant” (יַ֤פְתְּ אֱלֹהִים֙ לְיֶ֔פֶת [...]). Here the consonantal spelling of the name "Japheth" and verb "enlarge" are identical and very near each other, making the connection seem likely. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia entry Japheth, the root is פתה. See also [3]. However there is not a wiktionary entry on this root and its meaning is not everywhere considered obvious.
(Also, everything else aside, maybe it would be more accurate to say that יַ֤פְתְּ means "he enlarges or he expands", since the name of God is not included. Currently the article says "May God enlarge". I'm not sure if "may" is really a literal reading either.)
OK, that being said (and sorry if this comment is not well-organized), what about the purported relationship to Iapetus (mythology)? Wikipedia says Ἰαπετός means The Piercer but wikt:Ἰαπετός isn't so sure. He's ᾿Ιάφεθ in the Septuagint by the way.
Of course it's not Wikipedia's job to settle this issue, but perhaps it could be presented more clearly in the article, describing how much support there is for each perspective, and maybe describing how the Greek-origin proponents with the biblical/Hebrew etymology argument. Maybe people who have been working on this article lately ( User:PiCo, User:Alephb — hello again!) can clear things up a little. groupuscule ( talk) 18:06, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
This is entirely OR. KlevaAstro ( talk) 23:53, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, I understand that the reality is harsh and offensive for some peoples, but there is no such thing as "European", especially in biblical times since the current meaning of "Europe" was only invented in the 18th century (in antiquity it was used to refer only to the northern Mediterraneans, and did not include the tribes of Northwest Eurasia that were described as barbarian and cannibals).
As you can see in this article, the children of Japheth were those who lived in the north of Fertile Crescent, not the pseudo-continent "Europe" as some ideologists desire.
Barbar03 (
talk)
18:36, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Should Ikshvaku son of Vaivasvata Manu (Noah in the Hindu Flood myth) be identified with Iapetus/Japheth? Can't get over how similar the names are and their Dad being the Flood guy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tabbycatlove ( talk • contribs) 00:56, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
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Can someone rewrite this to reflect the proper historical root, using citations from the Torah instead of Biblical derivations (i.e. notice all the quotes are from KJV)? Cowbert ( talk) 17:11, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I wonder who are 'the Finns' because nobody haven't tried to guess who are they related to... --Ou
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ouagadougou ( talk • contribs) 19:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
HJ, what on earth are you doing with Ham, Sem, and Japhet? Who are 'the Europeans'? Are you asserting this to be (a) true, (b) a piece of authentic Biblical text, (c) a piece of folklore? The least you could suggest is "in some interpretations of material from the Book of Genesis," because otherwise we'll assume that you're very poorly informed about history. I hesitate to point out, because this may be a joke on your part, that the Bible's version of anthropology and ethnology is even LESS trustworthy than Claudius Ptolemy, whom you seem to believe about something he called 'magna Germania'. Oh - and you mispelled 'Israelis' on the Sem entry. --MichaelTinkler
I think he means Shem, Ham, and Japeth. They are the three sons of Noah mentioned in Genesis (chapters 6 and following). But I agree the stubs are very stubby. Ed Poor Also, there are some theories that the descendants of Ham went to Africa and eventually become the modern blacks. I think these theories are regarded as "racist".
Ham is significant in Unification Church theology, because he incited his brothers to cover up Noah's nakedness. This is considered a sin by the church, but it is unrelated to the "racial" theories (which I would prefer not to see aired). Ed Poor
The Japhet needs to be combined with Japheth , engl. spelling. MichaelTinkler, I see that you did not stay away for very long. HaHa?. Answer to all From ca 1890 German Pierer's Lexikon .Japhet(h) (hebrew :fare distant spreading out), third son of Noah. Is considered the Stammvater father of whom descend the Meder, Armenians, Greeks, Kelts, Germans, and Slavs , all together called Japhet(h)ites. Is the Japetos of the Greek legends. website , outside link : Uni-Press, Bern Switzerland: http://publicrelations.unibe.ch/unipress/heft104/beitrag10.html from booklet 104 April 2000 Die Wiedergeburt der Kartographie , The Rebirth of Cartography 500 years ago, first "world map" of 1472 showing Noah's sons S(h)em , Ham , Japhet(h). You can answer for yourself what is true and what isn't. H. Jonat
It doesn't matter whether the 1890 view is true or not. Just please rewrite the article, so that readers know who said it. Ed Poor
No, it does matter whether it's true. But it can be mentioned as, "people used to believe" with a citation.
Even on the 'people used to believe' front this entry was pretty bad. I tried to qualify it a little. I totally cut the absurd 19th century parallel between Japeth and Iapetos. If someone who understands comparative religion (unlike whoever wrote the initial mess) wants to rewrite it as an example of Interpretatio Romana that at least would be interesting. Japeth - human son of human father, putative ancestor of other people. Iapetos - divine son of Mother Earth, putative ancestor of other divine people. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, even if the first 2 syllables are somewhat similar. The assumption of pre-modern scholars that any similarity was better than nothing and is enough to at least speculate about is no longer acceptable. It can be, I guess, reported as 'folks used to believe,' but it must be qualified as such.
By the way does anyone know exactly what evidence there is to suggest that the Tubals and Meshechs spoke a Proto-Iberian language and were not originally rather Indoeuropean tribal designations? Zestauferov 06:52, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
This article seems a bit biased in that it takes the Biblical view as truth but does not state that view is not necessarily the real truth. Perhaps it is also worth noting the Piter/pitr/whathaveyou means father... even though the connection between Japheth and Jupiter is tenuous at best. D.E. Cottrell 05:39, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Apparently, Japhetic=Japhethitic Gringo300 19:02, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My point is exactly what I said. Well, to me the term "Japhethitic" comes across as the more logical term to use. Gringo300 00:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How about Ja Phethitic (Ya Pathetic)! I would like to know why tradition says Ham died at 536 and i cant find a Japheth tradition. 172.59.185.166 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 09:12, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Any objections to taking most of the "race" material on this page and moving it to Japhetic, to mirror Hamitic and Semitic entries? Jokestress 20:03, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Is Gepetto (the golem-maker) a form of Japheth?
OK, the disputed sentence is as follows "The term "Japhetic" was also applied by William Jones and other pre-Darwinian linguists to what later became known as the Indo-European language group.". Note that the point is not that there is some sort of "linguistics" that is pre- or post-Darwinian, but that there are linguists who are. It's about how they make assumptions about the historical context in which their linguistic models function - as clues to ancient human migations. Post-Darwin the bible-based model fade from academia. Of course Darwin is not the only cause. There were a complex of scientific and scholarly reasons why the Bible ceased to accepted as a basis for judging events in ancient history, but Darwin is a useful shorthand for that process, which explains the difference between Jones, who explicitly tried to fit linguistically-derived models of migrations into a Biblical model, and, say, Max Muller, who avoids the issue. It's relevant to this article because it's about why "Japhetic" faded in significance as a synonym for "Indo-European". Paul B 22:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Codex Sinaiticus, I did not get that information out of the "Book of Jasher", I have never even heard of it!, I got the information off of the first website listed under "External Links". I stopped deleting Irish off of Magog, so will you stopped writing what I wrote as the Book of Jasher? Thank You. -- CSArebel-- November 14, 2006
I do not see how a link to the M-word is relevant to this article. User:Paul Barlow claims it is relevant. I suppose he will answer me here.---- Dark Tea 10:27, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
The Jutes & Goths sound like the Jatts, Jati and Gotra of India. Sanskrit is very similar to ancient Persian which we known came from Central Asia. In the south of India they speak the Dravidian language type which is believed to have been spoken over all of India prior to the spread of Sanskrit based languages and Dravidian is believed to have been connected to the Elamite language that was once spoken in western Iran.
In ancient history there is often reference to tribes entering Europe from Asia and it is believed that the Slavs and Macedonians etc may have come from these people.
The original inhabitants of the British Isles are believed to have originally come from the Mediterranean and are known as the beaker people. This would explain the Canaanite words found in Welsh which have lead people to draw a connection with Wales to the lost tribes of Judah.
In France and Spain the people known as Basques speak a language not connected to Indo-European and they claim to be the original inhabitants. There were also other language types found in Northern Russia and Italy and the islands off Greece.
There have even been blonde haired Caucasian mummies found in western China that date prior to the Mongoloid people arriving. It seems the people of Central Asia who once occupied a large area of Central Asia were pushed west and south by Turkic speaking Mongoloid people.
Could the Mongoloid eyelid, the fewer sweat glands and less body hair be something to do with being coastal people?
Could the sons of Shem be references to the original Caucasian racial type hence the Indo-European and also the Elamites (Western Iran), Jews, Arabs, Armenians, Chaldeans (Iraq & Syria) are also Caucasian in racial appearances? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk) 15:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems coincidental that there are three sons and in truth there are three racial types.
Mongoloid Caucasoid Afroid
Australoid and other types are believed to be a mix racial type, perhaps mongoloid and Afroid.
All mentions of the decendents of Ham tend to be African type people. Mantions of Shemites i.e. Elamites (Elam), Armenian (Aram), Chaldians & Syrians (Peleg) are Caucasoid.
So it is fair to consider the possibility that this is a reference to the three racial types populating of the Earth.
There is even a belief that the original Javanites (Crete) could have been Mongoloid. They mixed with the Caucasiods of mainland Greece. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsigano ( talk • contribs) 17:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Someone here needs glasses, they document the scythians as descendants of Gomer AND Magog. ? How can Magog be the descendant of the blonde scythians AND another VERY distincet race of people ? Also note, there is absolutely NO mention of the Native American peoples. There are FOUR distinct races of people, and the 6th and 7th book of Moses which the Orthodox Roman Catholic Church hid from humanity documents that there were originally 72 nations of people. Somebodies not telling us something here ! Chica Geronimo — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chica geronimo ( talk • contribs) 18:52, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
> I don't understand why does his name is spelld in Arabic as well, it didn't come from Arabic sources...
Typically, most Abrahamic traditions are reflected both in Hebrew and Arabic history, with their own canonical spellings (as they share the same linguistic root - see Semetic). Because the Tanakh also became canonized into the Christian tradition, everything tends to have a corresponding Greek (Koine) and (Old) Latin translations as well (via the Septuagint). Cowbert ( talk) 12:43, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Ignores the Armenian or Georgian chronicles. See Article Togarmah —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.250.7.85 ( talk) 11:25, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Just go through my edits and see if there's anything there you think worth having. PiCo ( talk) 01:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
The sons of jefet are mainly the turco-mongolic races. all the central asians are the sons of shem. please look carefully in josefus' and stop with this anachronism.
Is there a source (apocryphal or otherwise) for the age of Japheth at the time of his death? Robert McClenon ( talk) 21:48, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Whoever keeps changing the FACT of Japheth's age please stop! Not only is your assertion that Japheth was the youngest of Noah's children Wrong, you cite Scripture that clearly states Japheth was the oldest and Ham was the youngest!!! Incorrect facts and incorrect citations give Wikipedia a bad reputation!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.190.83 ( talk) 22:54, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
The connection apparently comes from Genesis 9:27, "May God enlarge Japheth, and let him dwell in the tents of Shem, and let Canaan be his servant” (יַ֤פְתְּ אֱלֹהִים֙ לְיֶ֔פֶת [...]). Here the consonantal spelling of the name "Japheth" and verb "enlarge" are identical and very near each other, making the connection seem likely. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia entry Japheth, the root is פתה. See also [3]. However there is not a wiktionary entry on this root and its meaning is not everywhere considered obvious.
(Also, everything else aside, maybe it would be more accurate to say that יַ֤פְתְּ means "he enlarges or he expands", since the name of God is not included. Currently the article says "May God enlarge". I'm not sure if "may" is really a literal reading either.)
OK, that being said (and sorry if this comment is not well-organized), what about the purported relationship to Iapetus (mythology)? Wikipedia says Ἰαπετός means The Piercer but wikt:Ἰαπετός isn't so sure. He's ᾿Ιάφεθ in the Septuagint by the way.
Of course it's not Wikipedia's job to settle this issue, but perhaps it could be presented more clearly in the article, describing how much support there is for each perspective, and maybe describing how the Greek-origin proponents with the biblical/Hebrew etymology argument. Maybe people who have been working on this article lately ( User:PiCo, User:Alephb — hello again!) can clear things up a little. groupuscule ( talk) 18:06, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
This is entirely OR. KlevaAstro ( talk) 23:53, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, I understand that the reality is harsh and offensive for some peoples, but there is no such thing as "European", especially in biblical times since the current meaning of "Europe" was only invented in the 18th century (in antiquity it was used to refer only to the northern Mediterraneans, and did not include the tribes of Northwest Eurasia that were described as barbarian and cannibals).
As you can see in this article, the children of Japheth were those who lived in the north of Fertile Crescent, not the pseudo-continent "Europe" as some ideologists desire.
Barbar03 (
talk)
18:36, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Should Ikshvaku son of Vaivasvata Manu (Noah in the Hindu Flood myth) be identified with Iapetus/Japheth? Can't get over how similar the names are and their Dad being the Flood guy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tabbycatlove ( talk • contribs) 00:56, 27 June 2021 (UTC)