I've moved most of the construction section to its own article. I've also cut rather a lot of detail in the Technique section which I didn't feel was appropriate in this article (as opposed to an article concentrating on swordplay). This has put the article back under 32k. I'm open to commentary on these edits. Chris Cunningham 10:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The 'Use' section has sentence, that to me, seems a bit off: "During the Edo period samurai went about on foot unarmored, and with much less combat being fought on horseback in open battlefields the need for an effective close quarter weapon resulted in samurai being armed with daisho." During the Edo period there was no warfare in Japan, unless you count the Shimabara rebellion. And that was fought with guns. As I understood it, the katana was a mostly symbolic weapon, used rarely, in a duel or to kill an unarmed peasant. TRWBW 05:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually the katana saw extensive use during the Muromachi period as the primary close quarters weapon, during this time it may have been classified as a Uchigatana. Furthermore the early Eddo period saw significant conflict namely the Osaka-Natsuno-Jin war between Tokugawa Ieyasu and Toyotomi Hideyori. Some battles in this conflict such Battle of Sekigahara were very large in scale, comprising hundreds of thousands of men. Battle of Dōmyōji and The Siege of Osaka that brought the end of the conflict saw mostly close quarter combat, where of course the primary weapon would be the katana. However this was not the only conflict seen in that time even well into the Eddo period there were still circumstances that resulted in the use of the blade; throughout the Eddo period there was always a problem of banditry, and the political situation would often lead to honor duels between different samurai for various reasons. So in short yes the katana was indeed used in combat. Freepsbane 01:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
We're short of an intro image now due to it being removed. I moved most of the rest of the images into a gallery section because they were cluttering the construction section (now removed to its own article). This means we're somewhat uneven in our use of images. Should these be reintegrated? Should the construction / furnishing ones be moved to the other article? Could someone dig out some nice new ones? Chris Cunningham 10:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any Japanese people contributing, this article is biased towards the white man's viewpoint.
65.97.14.167 20:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Note that a number of contributors here are either (American/etc) koryu students or collectors or both. Best of both worlds would be to get European collectors who live in Japan like Chris Bowen or Gordon Robeson to contribute, or fluent english-speaking Japanese polishers/collectors such as Kenji Mishina. Richard Stein's page is quite extensive and authoritative. jesup 21:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Although the japanese people refuse to acknowledge this fact, The single edged japanese sword has had much influence from the korean single edged sword, and that is why they have a striking resemblance, though the japanese version looks to me much more elaborate and beautiful. Odst 06:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Korean sabers have had little to no influence on the katana beyond perhaps being developed from the same template of Tang Dynasty saber - if anything, the influence went the other way. Japanese swords were popular export items, and mainlanders were always happy to buy them and copy them. Anyone claiming that Korean swordsmanship had the slightest real influence on Japanese swordsmanship is pushing POV, and I would want to see rock-hard non-Korean sources for any assertions regarding it before allowing it into the article. Kensai Max 15:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
72.145.93.244 (I assume it's the same person as 72.145.144.46) is once again re-adding descriptions of someone firing bullets (Japanese TV show) at the edge of a katana, under Comparisons with swords of other cultures. See Talk:Katana/Archive_3#Bullets. From that user's response: "I vow to revert any removals. either way that video clip was from a notable jap tv show". If the youtube clip is almost certainly a copyright violation, and probably will get yanked (~30,000 Japanese TV videos have been pulled from youtube and/or challenged recently). More importantly, a katana locked in a stand causing bullets to split when they hit it edge on - while amusing (in an odd way), it has no relevance to an encyclopedia article on katana, and even less to "swords of other cultures". If someone wanted to create a Myths about Japanese Swords page, or something like that, it could go there. It does not belong in this article. jesup 14:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The following line is not only completely false, it is just plain silly.
It is clear that the .50 BMG bullets are not being cut, rather they are eating away at the blade until one gets a dead-on hit which snaps the blade in half. Was the person who wrote that suggesting that the blade was harder and stronger than armor? All of this suggest that the person who added the section has lack of knowledge about swords, guns, and steel. Just silly! Ranp 18:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I will continue to Revert your deletions 166.102.231.101 17:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that, when discussing this subject, we must look primarily at the physics at hand. Unfortunately, I am not terribly skilled in physics, but simply, your comparison of the effects on a katana to the effects armour is really not very valid. There is no doubting that the M2 is a terrifying weapon, but the simply physics of the two comparison are flawed. When a round strikes armour, it expends the entirety of its energy into the broad side of a steel plate. This is much like someone punching through a (or several) wood board(s). The simple arrangement of the materials in different when striking the edge of a katana. That would be the same as trying to punch through a board standing upright, along the grain - something much more difficult to do. In order for the comparison to be similar to a bullet striking the plate armour, the test would have to have shot the bullet at the flat of the katana, not the blade. Similarly, in the test, the katana cut the bullet, meaning much of its energy was not expended into the blade - undoubtedly some of it was, but was the joule transfer the same as it would be on a blunt flat steel plate? I would think it would be considerably lower.
Now, this does not mean that the sword in question is not an exceptional blade - rather, I'm sure it was quite a capable weapon before it was ruined during the test. However, the "experiment" lacks both a control and scientific verifiability, as well as a suitable comparison to other objects. How would a simple razor blade fare? A nice chef's knife? A proper longsword reproduction? A cheaper stainless steel katana? An axe? A piece of tank armour plating turned sideways, giving the same relational physical properties as the katana? Basically, the experiment is a standalone test that has no repeated evidence outside that video (from my understanding, they did not test a variety of objects). Similarly, the comparison of a bullet striking tank armour and a sharpened blade is flawed. Also, it should be noted that, from all I have seen, in the serious sword collection, reproduction, and academic community, this video is treated as little more than a parlor trick. It seems generally agreed within these communities that it is very neat to watch, but that the test provides does not really provide any conclusive evidence. Together, I think, these objections make the video speculative at best, and not encyclopedic information.
If the same weapon firing the same batch number of bullets under similar atmospheric conditions was tested on other materials, a control, and other 'experimental' variables (other swords, razors, knives, steel plates with different rotations, etc) the test would become considerably more useful. However, in its current state, it pretty much only shows that a projectile can be split by a sharp stationary object - the same concept as dropping an orange on to a stationary knife blade. I think any serious scholars (as all that I know of do) discount this test because it is incomplete and shows no basis of comparison. - xiliquiern talk 20:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Recent edit summaries have hinted at the use of partial protection or semi-protection for this article to prevent constant reverts of this section. Has action been taken to put this into motion? Is a vote required first? How does it work? - xiliquiern talk 20:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The second pic's caption reads, in part, "The nakago are well visible." However, nakago is not defined or even mentioned in the body of the article, and the separate nakago article is about a manga/anime character. 69.80.171.124 23:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph I deleted about european vs japanese technique would need WP:RS - it wasn't a neutral description of the differences; it was from the point of view of a japanese sword practitioner, and assumed things not in evidence. I believe such a paragraph could be written, but would require looking into (neutral) sources that compare the two. Otherwise, best to leave it out and avoid flamewars. jesup 22:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
"In time, the need to arm soldiers with swords was perceived again and over the decades at the beginning of the 20th century swordsmiths again found work. These swords, derisively called gunto, were often oil tempered or simply stamped out of steel and given a serial number rather than a chiseled signature. These often look like Western cavalry sabers rather than katana, although most are just like katana, with many mass-produced and in general slightly shorter than blades of the shintō and shinshintō periods."
This needs improvement.
1. Japanese soldiers were armed with swords and trained in their use continuously from 1868 to 1945 - the only "re-perception" involved was a realization that swordsmanship was still useful on the battlefield following the Seinan War against Saigo Takamori in 1877 and the subsequent creation of standardized military styles a la the Toyama-ryu.
2. "Gunto" is not a derigatory term, or at least has only acquired negative connotations among sword collectors over the last sixty years thanks to the relative low quality of mass-produced WWII swords. It means "military sword" - hence any sword a soldier carries is a gunto.
3. If my facts are correct, the only gunto given serial numbers were Type 95 NCO gunto, which were cheap crap probably meant more as a badge of rank than anything else. Officers universally used much better swords.
4. The saber-style of sword that is being referred to here is the kyu-gunto, which was the standard from the ~1870s up to 1934. These varied widely in quality and method of construction, from swords much like Western sabers to katana remounted with a lengthened saber hilt. They seem to have served adequately in Japan's wars during the period. Also, Japanese cavalry retained Western-style sabers even after the rest of the military had switched back to traditional mountings.
"Military swords hand made in the traditional way are often termed as gendaitō. The craft of making swords was kept alive through the efforts of a few individuals, notably Gassan Sadakazu and Gassan Sadakatsu who were employed as Imperial artisans. These smiths produced fine works that stand with the best of the older blades for the Emperor and other high ranking officials. The students of Gassan Sadakatsu went on to be designated Intangible Cultural Assets, "Living National Treasures," as they embodied knowledge that was considered to be fundamentally important to the Japanese identity. In 1934 the Japanese government issued a military specification for the shin gunto (new army sword), the first version of which was the Type 94 Katana, and many machine- and handcrafted swords used in World War II conformed to this and later shin gunto specifications."
This, again, needs improvement.
1. "Gendaito" refers to any sword made between 1877 and 1945, not just military swords.
2. Most military swords of WWII were of the later Type 98 pattern, which was the Type 94 redesigned with input from the Army. The Imperial Navy had their own pattern that more closely resembled the original Type 94 - you can tell it apart by its having two hanger rings instead of one. I've also heard a few rumors that there was some kind of hybrid design running around for the Special Naval Landing Forces, but that was probably more of a one-off variant than anything official.
Kensai Max 15:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
IIRC, the "cheap crap" association in Japan is with "Showa-to", swords made during the Showa Emperor's reign (the fellow we in the English-speaking world generally refer to as Hirohito). "Gendai-to" is a neutral term and is generally preferred for artistic swords made during the period. However, it is worth noting that formal sword-judging in Japan explicitly does not take into account the era in which a sword is made, and I've heard one anecdote of an American with a high-quality Showa-era sword throwing the rulebook at a dismissive Japanese appraiser and getting his initial judgement overturned.
Any negative connotations to the term "gunto" are strictly modern, however, and thus don't belong in the historical section. To be asininely precise, "gunto" actually refers to a sword's mounting style, anyways - a sword mounted as a Type 98 would have been referred to as a gunto by actual IJA personnel regardless of whether its blade was hammered out by Masamune in the Kamakura period or by some random swordsmith's apprentice in 1945. The difference between period and modern usage should probably be explained.
Furthermore, the paragraphs are just jumbled and grammatically bad and would need cleanup anyways. Kensai Max 00:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
A quick skim through the article revealed to me that it makes little mention of the large quantities of factory-produced katanas on the market nowadays, ranging from $20 joke swords to highly capable ~$2000 weapons. It's impossible to give a complete overview of the state of the craft in the modern day without mentioning the fairly recent rise of decent factory-produced blades priced within an ordinary person's finances and patience. Kensai Max 00:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Reported. jesup 19:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
liar! you've shown no willingnes to compromise, or discus. - User:Marshalbannana
Article no longer sprotected; anon-IP re-adding of the same edit has begun again. A search back shows that almost all anon-IP edits with this text are dynamic IPs owned by BellSouth and used for DSL, plus one or two from a frequently-blocked school IP addr. jesup 04:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I would like to ask if anyone has any evidence for folding decreasing the katana's strength. Although i agree that a weld creates a weak point in the metal, it only is weak if you either try to pull the layers apart or split it by going with the grain, both of which would never happen to a sword. Unless it specifically has a detrimental effect on the steel itself, i can see it benefiting the strength of the sword the same way the layers in ply wood make that far stronger than similar wood with no layers. Those of you who argue that wood and steel are very different, in this instant the same mathematical principle's are used to calculate the effect. If no evidence can be submitted, i feel it is necessary to change the language so that it is not denying a reputed positive effect, as there would be no evidence for this!
I'm going to create a working copy for us to get ready for when the main page is unprotected or for an admin to swap in once we're ready for an update.
Here's the place to work on a new edit: Talk:Katana/Draft
jesup 00:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
As i recall katana is japanese for katana, and i read that the japanese for sword was ken. And i think i read something about there being a sword before the katana, which means that the word katana didn't exist when the sword before it was being used. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.61.214.242 ( talk) 01:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
The generic term for sword is tsurugi. For example, western swords used in European fencing are generally called tsurugi (the Zelda franchise of computer games are called "Zeruda no tsurugi" in Japanese). Ken generally connotes a smaller blade, such as a dagger. A katana is a katana. If I had to translate it directly, I would probably call it a sabre, since a katana is essentially a cavalry sabre. This fact, along with the reality that samurai were horsemen who were loath to fight on foot is something that seems to have escaped this article somewhere. Mamuchanmai 12:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
yes its not like japanes people call a German broad sword a katana.
I've moved most of the construction section to its own article. I've also cut rather a lot of detail in the Technique section which I didn't feel was appropriate in this article (as opposed to an article concentrating on swordplay). This has put the article back under 32k. I'm open to commentary on these edits. Chris Cunningham 10:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The 'Use' section has sentence, that to me, seems a bit off: "During the Edo period samurai went about on foot unarmored, and with much less combat being fought on horseback in open battlefields the need for an effective close quarter weapon resulted in samurai being armed with daisho." During the Edo period there was no warfare in Japan, unless you count the Shimabara rebellion. And that was fought with guns. As I understood it, the katana was a mostly symbolic weapon, used rarely, in a duel or to kill an unarmed peasant. TRWBW 05:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually the katana saw extensive use during the Muromachi period as the primary close quarters weapon, during this time it may have been classified as a Uchigatana. Furthermore the early Eddo period saw significant conflict namely the Osaka-Natsuno-Jin war between Tokugawa Ieyasu and Toyotomi Hideyori. Some battles in this conflict such Battle of Sekigahara were very large in scale, comprising hundreds of thousands of men. Battle of Dōmyōji and The Siege of Osaka that brought the end of the conflict saw mostly close quarter combat, where of course the primary weapon would be the katana. However this was not the only conflict seen in that time even well into the Eddo period there were still circumstances that resulted in the use of the blade; throughout the Eddo period there was always a problem of banditry, and the political situation would often lead to honor duels between different samurai for various reasons. So in short yes the katana was indeed used in combat. Freepsbane 01:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
We're short of an intro image now due to it being removed. I moved most of the rest of the images into a gallery section because they were cluttering the construction section (now removed to its own article). This means we're somewhat uneven in our use of images. Should these be reintegrated? Should the construction / furnishing ones be moved to the other article? Could someone dig out some nice new ones? Chris Cunningham 10:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any Japanese people contributing, this article is biased towards the white man's viewpoint.
65.97.14.167 20:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Note that a number of contributors here are either (American/etc) koryu students or collectors or both. Best of both worlds would be to get European collectors who live in Japan like Chris Bowen or Gordon Robeson to contribute, or fluent english-speaking Japanese polishers/collectors such as Kenji Mishina. Richard Stein's page is quite extensive and authoritative. jesup 21:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Although the japanese people refuse to acknowledge this fact, The single edged japanese sword has had much influence from the korean single edged sword, and that is why they have a striking resemblance, though the japanese version looks to me much more elaborate and beautiful. Odst 06:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Korean sabers have had little to no influence on the katana beyond perhaps being developed from the same template of Tang Dynasty saber - if anything, the influence went the other way. Japanese swords were popular export items, and mainlanders were always happy to buy them and copy them. Anyone claiming that Korean swordsmanship had the slightest real influence on Japanese swordsmanship is pushing POV, and I would want to see rock-hard non-Korean sources for any assertions regarding it before allowing it into the article. Kensai Max 15:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
72.145.93.244 (I assume it's the same person as 72.145.144.46) is once again re-adding descriptions of someone firing bullets (Japanese TV show) at the edge of a katana, under Comparisons with swords of other cultures. See Talk:Katana/Archive_3#Bullets. From that user's response: "I vow to revert any removals. either way that video clip was from a notable jap tv show". If the youtube clip is almost certainly a copyright violation, and probably will get yanked (~30,000 Japanese TV videos have been pulled from youtube and/or challenged recently). More importantly, a katana locked in a stand causing bullets to split when they hit it edge on - while amusing (in an odd way), it has no relevance to an encyclopedia article on katana, and even less to "swords of other cultures". If someone wanted to create a Myths about Japanese Swords page, or something like that, it could go there. It does not belong in this article. jesup 14:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The following line is not only completely false, it is just plain silly.
It is clear that the .50 BMG bullets are not being cut, rather they are eating away at the blade until one gets a dead-on hit which snaps the blade in half. Was the person who wrote that suggesting that the blade was harder and stronger than armor? All of this suggest that the person who added the section has lack of knowledge about swords, guns, and steel. Just silly! Ranp 18:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I will continue to Revert your deletions 166.102.231.101 17:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that, when discussing this subject, we must look primarily at the physics at hand. Unfortunately, I am not terribly skilled in physics, but simply, your comparison of the effects on a katana to the effects armour is really not very valid. There is no doubting that the M2 is a terrifying weapon, but the simply physics of the two comparison are flawed. When a round strikes armour, it expends the entirety of its energy into the broad side of a steel plate. This is much like someone punching through a (or several) wood board(s). The simple arrangement of the materials in different when striking the edge of a katana. That would be the same as trying to punch through a board standing upright, along the grain - something much more difficult to do. In order for the comparison to be similar to a bullet striking the plate armour, the test would have to have shot the bullet at the flat of the katana, not the blade. Similarly, in the test, the katana cut the bullet, meaning much of its energy was not expended into the blade - undoubtedly some of it was, but was the joule transfer the same as it would be on a blunt flat steel plate? I would think it would be considerably lower.
Now, this does not mean that the sword in question is not an exceptional blade - rather, I'm sure it was quite a capable weapon before it was ruined during the test. However, the "experiment" lacks both a control and scientific verifiability, as well as a suitable comparison to other objects. How would a simple razor blade fare? A nice chef's knife? A proper longsword reproduction? A cheaper stainless steel katana? An axe? A piece of tank armour plating turned sideways, giving the same relational physical properties as the katana? Basically, the experiment is a standalone test that has no repeated evidence outside that video (from my understanding, they did not test a variety of objects). Similarly, the comparison of a bullet striking tank armour and a sharpened blade is flawed. Also, it should be noted that, from all I have seen, in the serious sword collection, reproduction, and academic community, this video is treated as little more than a parlor trick. It seems generally agreed within these communities that it is very neat to watch, but that the test provides does not really provide any conclusive evidence. Together, I think, these objections make the video speculative at best, and not encyclopedic information.
If the same weapon firing the same batch number of bullets under similar atmospheric conditions was tested on other materials, a control, and other 'experimental' variables (other swords, razors, knives, steel plates with different rotations, etc) the test would become considerably more useful. However, in its current state, it pretty much only shows that a projectile can be split by a sharp stationary object - the same concept as dropping an orange on to a stationary knife blade. I think any serious scholars (as all that I know of do) discount this test because it is incomplete and shows no basis of comparison. - xiliquiern talk 20:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Recent edit summaries have hinted at the use of partial protection or semi-protection for this article to prevent constant reverts of this section. Has action been taken to put this into motion? Is a vote required first? How does it work? - xiliquiern talk 20:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The second pic's caption reads, in part, "The nakago are well visible." However, nakago is not defined or even mentioned in the body of the article, and the separate nakago article is about a manga/anime character. 69.80.171.124 23:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph I deleted about european vs japanese technique would need WP:RS - it wasn't a neutral description of the differences; it was from the point of view of a japanese sword practitioner, and assumed things not in evidence. I believe such a paragraph could be written, but would require looking into (neutral) sources that compare the two. Otherwise, best to leave it out and avoid flamewars. jesup 22:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
"In time, the need to arm soldiers with swords was perceived again and over the decades at the beginning of the 20th century swordsmiths again found work. These swords, derisively called gunto, were often oil tempered or simply stamped out of steel and given a serial number rather than a chiseled signature. These often look like Western cavalry sabers rather than katana, although most are just like katana, with many mass-produced and in general slightly shorter than blades of the shintō and shinshintō periods."
This needs improvement.
1. Japanese soldiers were armed with swords and trained in their use continuously from 1868 to 1945 - the only "re-perception" involved was a realization that swordsmanship was still useful on the battlefield following the Seinan War against Saigo Takamori in 1877 and the subsequent creation of standardized military styles a la the Toyama-ryu.
2. "Gunto" is not a derigatory term, or at least has only acquired negative connotations among sword collectors over the last sixty years thanks to the relative low quality of mass-produced WWII swords. It means "military sword" - hence any sword a soldier carries is a gunto.
3. If my facts are correct, the only gunto given serial numbers were Type 95 NCO gunto, which were cheap crap probably meant more as a badge of rank than anything else. Officers universally used much better swords.
4. The saber-style of sword that is being referred to here is the kyu-gunto, which was the standard from the ~1870s up to 1934. These varied widely in quality and method of construction, from swords much like Western sabers to katana remounted with a lengthened saber hilt. They seem to have served adequately in Japan's wars during the period. Also, Japanese cavalry retained Western-style sabers even after the rest of the military had switched back to traditional mountings.
"Military swords hand made in the traditional way are often termed as gendaitō. The craft of making swords was kept alive through the efforts of a few individuals, notably Gassan Sadakazu and Gassan Sadakatsu who were employed as Imperial artisans. These smiths produced fine works that stand with the best of the older blades for the Emperor and other high ranking officials. The students of Gassan Sadakatsu went on to be designated Intangible Cultural Assets, "Living National Treasures," as they embodied knowledge that was considered to be fundamentally important to the Japanese identity. In 1934 the Japanese government issued a military specification for the shin gunto (new army sword), the first version of which was the Type 94 Katana, and many machine- and handcrafted swords used in World War II conformed to this and later shin gunto specifications."
This, again, needs improvement.
1. "Gendaito" refers to any sword made between 1877 and 1945, not just military swords.
2. Most military swords of WWII were of the later Type 98 pattern, which was the Type 94 redesigned with input from the Army. The Imperial Navy had their own pattern that more closely resembled the original Type 94 - you can tell it apart by its having two hanger rings instead of one. I've also heard a few rumors that there was some kind of hybrid design running around for the Special Naval Landing Forces, but that was probably more of a one-off variant than anything official.
Kensai Max 15:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
IIRC, the "cheap crap" association in Japan is with "Showa-to", swords made during the Showa Emperor's reign (the fellow we in the English-speaking world generally refer to as Hirohito). "Gendai-to" is a neutral term and is generally preferred for artistic swords made during the period. However, it is worth noting that formal sword-judging in Japan explicitly does not take into account the era in which a sword is made, and I've heard one anecdote of an American with a high-quality Showa-era sword throwing the rulebook at a dismissive Japanese appraiser and getting his initial judgement overturned.
Any negative connotations to the term "gunto" are strictly modern, however, and thus don't belong in the historical section. To be asininely precise, "gunto" actually refers to a sword's mounting style, anyways - a sword mounted as a Type 98 would have been referred to as a gunto by actual IJA personnel regardless of whether its blade was hammered out by Masamune in the Kamakura period or by some random swordsmith's apprentice in 1945. The difference between period and modern usage should probably be explained.
Furthermore, the paragraphs are just jumbled and grammatically bad and would need cleanup anyways. Kensai Max 00:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
A quick skim through the article revealed to me that it makes little mention of the large quantities of factory-produced katanas on the market nowadays, ranging from $20 joke swords to highly capable ~$2000 weapons. It's impossible to give a complete overview of the state of the craft in the modern day without mentioning the fairly recent rise of decent factory-produced blades priced within an ordinary person's finances and patience. Kensai Max 00:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Reported. jesup 19:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
liar! you've shown no willingnes to compromise, or discus. - User:Marshalbannana
Article no longer sprotected; anon-IP re-adding of the same edit has begun again. A search back shows that almost all anon-IP edits with this text are dynamic IPs owned by BellSouth and used for DSL, plus one or two from a frequently-blocked school IP addr. jesup 04:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I would like to ask if anyone has any evidence for folding decreasing the katana's strength. Although i agree that a weld creates a weak point in the metal, it only is weak if you either try to pull the layers apart or split it by going with the grain, both of which would never happen to a sword. Unless it specifically has a detrimental effect on the steel itself, i can see it benefiting the strength of the sword the same way the layers in ply wood make that far stronger than similar wood with no layers. Those of you who argue that wood and steel are very different, in this instant the same mathematical principle's are used to calculate the effect. If no evidence can be submitted, i feel it is necessary to change the language so that it is not denying a reputed positive effect, as there would be no evidence for this!
I'm going to create a working copy for us to get ready for when the main page is unprotected or for an admin to swap in once we're ready for an update.
Here's the place to work on a new edit: Talk:Katana/Draft
jesup 00:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
As i recall katana is japanese for katana, and i read that the japanese for sword was ken. And i think i read something about there being a sword before the katana, which means that the word katana didn't exist when the sword before it was being used. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.61.214.242 ( talk) 01:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
The generic term for sword is tsurugi. For example, western swords used in European fencing are generally called tsurugi (the Zelda franchise of computer games are called "Zeruda no tsurugi" in Japanese). Ken generally connotes a smaller blade, such as a dagger. A katana is a katana. If I had to translate it directly, I would probably call it a sabre, since a katana is essentially a cavalry sabre. This fact, along with the reality that samurai were horsemen who were loath to fight on foot is something that seems to have escaped this article somewhere. Mamuchanmai 12:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
yes its not like japanes people call a German broad sword a katana.