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When I finished reading this entire dispute page, I feel that there are more pro Japanese people than pro Korean..... Especially the one with Tae Kwon Do being originated from Karate is really pushy by the pro Japanese..... I am not trying to take the Korean's side but Tae Kwon Do existed before Karate and and it was introduced to Japan by Baekjae through trade..... Also, if Japan claims Tsushima, why are they unfairly trying to claim Tokdo as well????? And I believe there should be more peaceful or neutral term used rather than "Sea of Japan".Thanks( MCASGT 01:27, 12 May 2007 (UTC))
1)The Sea name should be the Marginal Sea(neutral) 2)The Liancourt Rokcs should be called Dokdo(Koreans had longer historical eefect on these Isles) 3)Tsushima should belong to Japan(The Japanese had longer cultural influence on these Islands...) 4)Japan should sincerely apologize to Korea about their atrocities that they have commited. 5)Japan should not write inaccurate books like Far Away from the Bamboo grove since the Japanese mistreated the Koreans and the Japanese refugees were guaranteed a safe voyage back to Japan.... The authors father was also in jail by the Imperial Japanese army for stealing money..... These Japanese books are very inaccurate.... 6)Pro-Koreans should not write inaccurate informations on these pages.... 7)Both sides must not use inaccurate information without a valid evidence.... Thanks( MCASGT 21:57, 12 May 2007 (UTC))
I don't mean to interfere on the controversy here and I don't have a personal stake in this article. But I was bothered enough by a lot of the small little grammatical and spelling errors that I felt compelled to clean it up. I tried to retain as much of the original flavoring as the article had but there were some cases where I was forced to clarify as best as I could when the grammar used was mutilated to the point where it wasn't understandable. Please watch the English in the article as it's no use to have some perceived point appear in the article if it's not written well. Thanks! -- Kainee 04:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I think you're missing the biggest dispute of all: the 35-year period during which Japan annexed Korea as a colony (1910-1945). The imposition of Shinto as the state religion, the Japanese control of all Korean schools, the attempts to stamp out the use of Korean language, etc. . . . -- Uncle Ed 19:56, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Umm.. No. It is not "Current Disputes", It is "Japanese-Korean disputes". (Read the title before responding.) Second of all, pleanty of people are and will be affected by forced Shinto, annexation, illegalizing the korean language, etc. if we do not learn from out mistakes. so, yeah, it has a lot to do with contemporary society ok?
Kadzuwo: the external link you added ( Korea, the Preposterous World) is to a highly POV personal Web site maintained by Wikipedia user Nanshu. Nanshu has already published a lot of the material from that site here and has caused numerous edit disputes because of it. We don't need any more hateful material from him than he has already contributed. I have removed the link to the site. And don't tell me I'm censoring the truth or whatever: there is already too much anti-Korean nonsense on Wikipedia. -- Sewing 16:53, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, that website is the only thing "preposterous". If he wants to correct us Koreans, tell him to be my guest. But tell him to do it from a neutral point of view. Seriously, I feel so stupid for the fact that I actually wasted my precious time reading that junk.
Starting NPOV mine field. My god, aren't we (Korean & Japanese) such kids. :D FWBOarticle 00:55, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
there must be load of others. Feel free to add. FWBOarticle
Should add Zainichi issue but it is such a big topic that it might deserve separate page. FWBOarticle 00:59, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I propose that this page is split into two section one about politics the other about cluture.
Ah, the idea that there are no such things as Korean (nation, race or ethnic group or whatever) at that period and Korean penninsula is just region where thich contained different ethinic groups of Altaic origin is a view held by the people who counter claim that Japanese decended from Korean. I obviously understand that Korean would disagree with such assertion and find that to be offensive. However, as long as attribution is properly made such view should not be censored. On one side, Japanese decended from Korean, (more accurate statement probably being the tribe(s) which set up the original dynasty in a region of Japan came from Korean Penninsula). On the other side, there were no such thing as "Korean", (more accurate statement probably being variation of Altaic tribes/nations were subsequently unified to form Korean nation and ethinic group). Obviously, counter-counter argument (variation of language is in fact dialect not language) exist and then there is counter-counter-counter argument (such variation extend to Manchuria, Japan and possibly Mongolia). You might also notice that there were no such thing as Korean also mean there were no such thing as Japanese. FWBOarticle 18:46, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Takwondo originally being Korean Karate is not that cotroversial. In fact it was called as such. Until 70s, Taekwondo dojo/dojang used exactly the same forms as Shotokan Karate. Obviously, whether the current TKD being a variation of Karate or separate MA depends on POV. It's also bit funny given that Karate is actually Okinawan art not Japanese. Also Okinawan karate is the Tangsu martial art of China (admitted by the Okinawans) FWBOarticle 18:46, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Wow, I have never been so amused by a wikipedia article. I had only heard of about half of these disputes. I knew Japanese and Koreans could be petty towards each other, but christ! I wish I'd known about some of these before, I could have pissed off my korean teachers with it! hehe.
Boy, if I had to guess, I would swear the DPRK are starting to post on the Wikipedia (welcome comrades!). I am tempted to go through and clean up the POV and goofy unproven tripe on this page, but then I think this page may actually serve a purpose: gives the trolls a nice sandbox to post their rants and keep them off the Japan or Korea page.... Davejenk1ns 15:39, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Under the dispute "North Korean abductions of Japanese", the last sentence is completely incoherent. I can't tell if the meaning is that during WWII the Japanese also kidnapped North Korean citizens and this doesn't bother them so why should North Korea care about Japanese citizens, OR that during WWII other nations also kidnapped Japanese citizens but this isn't a problem because it was not North Korea that did it. In any case, this needs to be made comprehensible and NPOV, or it needs to be removed. As this is a potentially controversial topic, I'm posting this to the discussion page first. Munkymu 22:33, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Japanese Ministry of Education is now Ministry of Education and Science. I think we should rename the title to "Publications on History in Japan" or something to put the issue in broader context. The textbooks must pass a governmental inspections before they're issued to each school, but publications other than textbooks can contain anything regardless of their nature, meaning whether they're right-wing or left-wing. It's also important to clarify what whatwashings of wartime atrocities the Koreans are pointing out, like the use of the term "invasion."
The problems with the Korean publications on history should be put in the article too. There is only one history textbook in Korea, written and edited by the goverment. And due to the anti-Japanese educational policy, the "good" side of the nation/people is hardly written in any publications.
I'd also like to have non-Korean/Japanese discussing this issue. Some could provide a neutral point of view. -- Nc622 11:57, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"A prime example of this would be the introduction of Buddhism/Confucianism. This concept almost completely came to Japan by way of Korea, but Japan almost goes out her way to not focus on this fact."
Japanese textbooks state that Buddhism/Confucianism came via Korea. I don't understand why Buddhism/Confucianism is such an issue. The claim that "Japan neglects Korea to save her face" is the typical Koreans' delusion due to their insecurities. -- 203.189.128.197 19:21, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Taekwondo was originated from Takkyun Korean martial art. I think many ill-minded people who falsely believe Taekwondo was influenced by Karate are getting confused with ( Tang Soo Do).
Taekwondo is home grown Korean martial art. Japanese cannot accept the fact that Taekwondo is more popular than karate. Taekwondo is chosen has Olympic Sport.
Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do are two different martial arts.
Removed the part about Taekwondo and culture taught wrongly in Japan. This is false; they mention the Korean influence in their culture in textbooks. I think we've had enough of the falseness of the claim on Taekwondo not originating from Karate.
This claim is groundless. No documented records are found that can prove that the Japanese empire changed the name. The name Korea was used before the Japanese annexed Korea. Until the 20th century French was normally used for international conferences, in these documents Korea's written Corée because in Roman languages in general to start with C is linguistically correct. It's after Versailles Treaty when English became prevalent. So it's just a difference of whether they prefer the French way or the English way. It's your choice... It's kinda scary the whole nation believes this Japanese conspiracy theory though. Same with the name of the sea... Personally I don't care about that "sea" (it's just a sea, for your's sake), but... I'm sorry but I have to say the reasonings in these claims are extremely poor.-- Nc622 11:17, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
i agree with sea naming dispute. japan's coastline has a longer border with the sea rather than the korean peninsula, so there is no reason why it shouldnt be called 'sea of japan'. i dont understand why the koreans are trying to change the name.-- Sesloan 06:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
i dont agree with the name, sea of japan. the japanese changed it by donating money to the atlas company. the original name is east sea. thats y the koreans r tryin to change it. they must have a reason. and japan did change the name of the country. if u know, that the japan's real name is nihon. korea's: corea. but n is behind c! geez, the japanese changed their name into japan, since thats how they made it and put corea to korea. -- dl96 7:57, 29 september 2006
Umm, No. Nihon is what the japanese called themselves,(alternative to Wa) the koreans if translated correctly called it Ill Bon. The chinese in Mandarain Dilect pronounced it Jae Bun. it travels to a port where the Dutch traded Tea (or Chai) with the chinese and they called it Jae Pun. IN English, its Japan. (By the Way, I'm Korean)
The more and more I find about these "brutalities commited by Japanese army," I notice that they're all made ups by the Chinese and the Koreans... Unbelievable.
Look the Nanking Massacre, comfort women, death railway, the murder of Empress Min, Manila massacre, unit 731, unit 100, etc these are not made up.
The Nanking Massacre and comfort women are exactly the made ups. The comfort women issues are the worst though. There're no documented records or whatsoever to suggest that these "comfort women" were slaves that the military forced to be. These were prostitutes, and there're only testimonies by the women themselves, which somehow constantly change with each trial they faced. -- Nc622 09:24, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If you don't believe these crimes happened, take it up with the WWII war tribunal, in which the court stated it did happen.
I know this arguement is also coming up in Germany as well, they ask for proof of the Holocuast. Where is the documentation, where are the bodies they ask. Then they state the holocuast never happened.
But neo nazis believe the holocaust is a hoax. You just choose to ignore what you don't want to believe. Every country has done bad things. just admit it. China pollutes and bootlegs. Russia massacred millions of people. Koreans has been extremely stubborn with Japan. Korea used to eat dogs too (its not "bad" but its disgusting)In fact, i think japan has paid its due with korea. All countries have problems. don't try to battle every criticism.
The UN human rights commision believe Japan is guilty on the comfort women issue in addition to various other war crimes and have made multiple statements about this. International civic groups have stated the evidence showed Japan as being guilty. In addition the Netherlands performed a mock trial (as realistic as possbily since they do not have jurisdiction over Japan) on the comfort women and have concluded Japan was guilty. One of the government ministers of Japan Nariaki Nakayama have stated there was alot of evidence for comfort women and apologized. The women from Europe who were in the pacific and got forced to be comfort women by Japan protest every year at the Japanese embassy, on the anniversary day of Japan's defeat in WWII. I stated "this arguement was coming up in Germany" not by the historian but by nationalists, neo-nazi's, the new axis national socialist party of Japan (which is a neo-facist group in Japan). The German government has done a wonderful job of trying to reflect on their past behavior, apologized formally, didn't show an ambiguous stance on war crimes, tried to compensate financially, which is a stark contrast to what happened in the pacific.
I didn't know that the Dutch performed a mock trial. Yes, they don't have jurisdiction over Japan... I'd be surprised if they did. As I said, Nakasone confessed that the apology was political. He admitted that the governmental investigation could not find any evidences on it. You have not presented anything that I didn't know. The UN human rights commision is the very organization that first referred to comfort women as "sex slaves." There have been at least a hundred of English books that depict the story of comfort women according to this view; if you include books in all languages probably the number easily exceeds a thousand. These "nationalist" historians as you call them are very well-aware that the majority of international community including Japan are people like you who just lebel the opposite side of their opinion as revisionalist "neo-fascist group" who's just simply in denial of the history for national pride. Quite a simplistic attitude. Nevertheless, for your information, there're growing numbers of non-Japanese professionals who're starting to look into this issue.
But I really honestly wonder if you even know how this matter came up to the public in the first place. The term "comfort women" itself did not exist untill a former-Japanese soldier Seiji Yoshida published a book with a super-pretentious title My War Crimes in 1983. Before that, there had been no disputes or whatsoever about sex slaves in and outside of Japan. In the book, Yoshida confessed that he kidnapped some Korean women and forced them to be "comfort women"; which was the first time this term was used. This book was translated into Korean in 1989 and as I stated previously a Korean journalist went to the island where Yoshida's army positioned and investigated on the fact of the matter. On August 14th 1989 she published a report on a regional newspaper and denied Yoshida's testimony as a lie. Along with her report there were criticisms from the Japanese historians, and Yoshida admitted that he published the book for his financial need. I forgot his name but a professor of Souel University later performed further investigation on 40 women who claimed to be of former comfort women and he concluded that more than half of them were inventing the facts. But the Japanese major press such as Asahi, Yomiuri and Japan Times, and English press such as New York Times and Washington Post as well did not even refer to the Korean report and Yoshida's testimony that his story was invented. Other civilian testimonies and diaries of the comfort women rather suggest that they were "sold" by their own parents to a group of prostitution. These are not even talked on the newspaper because people like you just lebel these opinions as from "neo-fascist group" like you said. It's such a distortion itself, since Japan was not fascist during the war.
Don't just say "women from Europe" and be specific. There are few Dutch women who have been sueing the Japanese government. It must be such an easy and lighthearted thing for you to make a claim like: The German government has done a wonderful job of trying to reflect on their past behavior, apologized formally, didn't show an ambiguous stance on war crimes, tried to compensate financially, which is a stark contrast to what happened in the pacific. Read at least the content of San Francisco Peace Treaty before you codemn Japan. It's a typical propagandized belief of Chinese and Korean that Japan has not made apology. For Korea, Japan didn't even have to apologize or compensate for anything but she still did. The only country that Japan has not compensated is Taiwan because of political reason that the Japanese government decided to consider it as part of China. -- Nc622 08:33, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For Korea, Japan didn't even have to apologize or compensate for anything but she still did. Umm, if according to your mindset, The Germans did not have to apologized to the Jews for the Holocaust or the Amercans for the Japanese Internment camps. See, people like you say that Japan was not Fascist but the government was controlled by the special elite an the prime minister was not chosen by the people but a council made up by the very same elites. The Tenno (Japanese King) had no control, the people who were allowed to vote were given only 2 choiced of the same elite class and Japan nationalized railroads, businesses, and docks to mobilize for war. THAT IS FASCIST!!!!!!
What is the "Denno"? There is no such term or word. Why do Koreans like to be the father and the creator of Japan and Japanese history without having any proof? It is hard to understand why they forge all kinds of things.
You can also ask why Japan doesn't like to relate historical items and concepts with the rest of Asia. Eventhough they are an island, they do have neighbors. Information passed from Korea to Japan like swording making techniques, iron processing, pottery techniques, writting, also the fact that people of Baekchae Korea wrote Japans first history compilation. All, these are undeniable, but why do they perfer to use the term NE area, China, mainland, the continent, wouldn't terms like Shilla, Baekchae, Koryo, Goguryeo, peninsula be more accurate. Also, Koreans learned all these concepts from other countries as well, mainly China. But alot of what China learned was also from India, Arab and the middle east. But you don't see the Koreans writting history about iron processing and only mention the mideast and completely leave out China who passed on the info. Should Korea only mention India for Buddhism and not mention China or put it in as a small footnote or one sentence info.
The history of the two countries are intricately tied together.
http://www.uglychinese.org/japanese.htm
Go look at this Japanese website and you will see the information on the Burial tombs, and how eventhough Korea has archeologically the older burial tombs, the two countries are still argue about the origin of it. And Prince Akhito making the acknowledgement of Emperor Kammu's familial relation to King Muryeong is well documented. And alot of the information is from the WWII war tribunal. That is why former Japanese prime ministers apologized for the education policy in Korea. To educate enough for labor, but not for higher learning.
Another complicating issue is in order to truely get a good understanding of the disputes you need to be fluent in English, Korean, Japanese, and Chinese. Very few people can speak all 4 languages fluently. Also note most of the information in English comes from Japan because Japan has had the longest relationship with the west.
Also note most of the information in English comes from Japan because Japan has had the longest relationship with the west. Umm, ever hear about the silk road trade? how about the mongolian invasions? the huns? maybe Indian trade ports. All these have from 1000~500 years on Japan in terms of having contact with the West.
You need to learn all 4 languages because Japan and Korea used to write in Chinese, also Chinese references to these countries can not be ignored especially when these countries did not compile massive ancient historical information like the Chinese did. Example, the letter sent by Tokugawa to Korea is in Chinese characters about the disputed islands. Also, there are proof, evidence, documentation in Korean, Japanese and Chinese, in addition to counter arguements for many disputed items. And you need to know english cause this is an english website.
You can also ask why Japan doesn't like to relate historical items and concepts with the rest of Asia. Eventhough they are an island, they do have neighbors.
Even in this article it switches back and forth from people saying the penisula, then someone switches it to continent. Also, from the translated Japanese text books I've read, it uses terms like NE area, continent. When I studied East Asian History in School, this was brought up by the professor also. Now, why is the Japanese government making apologies for unit 731, Nanking, Comfort women if it was all made up. Where is the logic for Japan in burial tombs agruement still going on, where is their proof, why do people keep bring that up on this website and switching it without proof as being Japanese culture. Isn't it logical to assume the country with the older archealogical burial tombs and artifacts to be the founders?
English....books are translated into english. This is an english website, I was educated in the US. And yes, I believe Chinese and Koreans translate Japanese text books, isn't that why there was such an uproar when the new Japanese History book came out.
How do you know what is acceptable in Korea and what is not, do you speak the language, have you lived there for more than 5 years. With all the freedom in Japan the information about unit 731 came mostly from the US papers, only then did Japan apolozie, but didn't make all the sealed papers in Japan public...hmmm lots of freedom there right...very objective right. Not all the papers were confiscated by the US. The research information was shared with the US, the US wanted the research info for their own knowledge. But papers on weather those weapons were used, where, how may or may not be in the sealed papers in Japan. Just a side note, I think the perpetrators of crimes in history tend to want to move on and say lets separate the past actions in history from our current politics even if nothing was resolved. The victims of the crimes tend to want resolution and are much more vocal about the crime. There is always a trust issue also, if you can't trust the other country due to historical crimes, it may become a current political issue.
More rushes in conclusions, Yes we know how the matter of comfort women came up in Japan, this was also something generally known in the west and in asia before 1983 but wasn't emphasized until someone from Japan confessed to it. The Koreans also try to verify Japanese historical info because they question Japans trustworthiness. The reporter didn't completely dismiss the Japanese book, he raised valid questions which could not be answered, especially in regard to timeline. You must of read the edited version of the news research, because the edited Japanese version dismissed many testimonies of people who wanted to stay anonymous and people of questionable back ground, which meant protitute/rape victim testimonies were dismissed. Testimonies from Korean, Filopinos and Chinese were dismissed. There was another article in english (can't remember the writer) questioning the Japanese take on it cause they only left Japanese testimonies as valid. And stated that was like the criminal investigating himself.
Also, if you take any East Asian history class in the US (college level) they will translate sections and chapters of books from other countries.
Why, is the accuracy of Japan's history text books always on the US news.
I strongly agree with the user above. Although I have restored the article to become as least NPOV as possible, there are still some POV comments deeply rooted within various sub-articles. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that all of us would like this article to be well balanced between Korean and Japanese arguments, and not in favour of one side or the other. Leonhart
Some people without ID seem to be just changing articles without discussing. I agree with Tangfe. The whole article needs revision, or else needs to be erased leaving some major disputes such as the ones over the island and the textbooks. Some articles are totally nonsense and unworthy like Japanese photographs of Korea. What's this about? A big question mark in my head. -- Nc622 17:05, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The info on this page switches back and forthe almost daily. There should be discussions for each change.
>Archaeological studies show that a large influx of people from Korea immigrated to Japan along with technology, culture, and language.
Why do Koreans assert that they are the cultural and the ethical father of Japanese. Is this another Korean superstition? Due to government policy and anti-Japanese education, don't Koreans hate Japanese? Then why? A contradiction...Quite puzzling. Korean psychology must be complex. Koreans cannot live without thinking about Japan and the Japanese? | Tangfe 23:44, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The photographs are disputed between the two countries because it was one of the excuses Japan used to invade other countries in WWII. They believed the other countries were "backwards", then showed the photographs as evidence. Later people started questioning the photographs asking why historical treasures which eventually got stolen/destoryed in war were never photographed. Koreans state it was propaganda photos, Japan states it was not propaganda. That is what the current arguement is about.
Japan states it was not propaganda. Who in Japan are you talking about? And what pictures?Koreans believe they can say anything when it comes to about Japanese people. By the way, They believed the other countries were "backwards": this statement is either your imagination or what you're told from your government, very typical of Koreans.-- Nc622 11:28, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hmm... I guess it's Nc622, the guy who posted his opinionated material is the article without knowledge of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I guess that's okay, since he's a new guy, but some of his statements are questionable. For example, there's that part in which he said that the Nanjing Massacre was Chinese propoganda (or something similar at least). But it was worthy to be used as propoganda, as all wartime incidents are. Not only that, there's no denying that it was done in a purely barbaric and inhumane matter. Whether it was systematically carried out or was a result of national rivalry is a dispute left to historians, but it was, at the very least, comparable to the brutality of Attila the Hun.
In addition, although Nc622 did mention it, along with another guy, the bit about the need to speak four languages in order to fully comprehend the history of East Asia from 1850~1945 is also quite true... sure, there are translated historical records, but full access to all English, Chinese, Korean, and Japanese records is only available to a person who can speak all of the languages listed above.
Finally, the dispute over the Japanese photographs.... obviously they were used as "proof" by Korean governments over the last five decades (perhaps six), but it was true that Japanese photographers targetted the very worst of Korean society. Opium addicts, the poor, the disabled, the starving... they were all used as evidence of Japan's need to colonize and industrialize Korea and the rest of Asia. Just becuase a few memorabilia was used as propoganda doesn't mean that they have been invalidated; they're just leaving a stronger mental impact. It's better than whitewashing history altogether with nationalistic beliefs, like Japan (and to a far lesser degree, Korea and China). And finally, revising history doesn't change anything, especially not the history of the Japnese colonial period in Korea: Japan's imperialistic rule over Korea had everything to do with the cruelty and mercilessness of the worst barbarians and the savageness of hunting dogs and had nothing to do with humanity, the rights of human beings, or respect for other cultures. I hope revisionists do not deny or downplay this fact 'cause sometimes, admitting your own faults and taking responsibilty is a way to help yourself.
Although the comments above are only my opinion, anyone is welcome to criticize and rebuke them, and I will do my best to answer them in a sincere matter. Leonhart
This article is completely ridiculous. I've removed it.-- Nc622 10:27, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Book you present above from 1890's to early 1900's actually proves the point about Japan's photographs of Korea, there was no reason why pictures of the Palace/artifacts could not be taken. Also, this was written by a Japanese ally (british) who thought every one in Asia was inferior to the caucasians at that time. Yes, the british thought the Japanese were the Yellow Pearl of Asia (as long as they knew there place below the british) and believed China to be the sick man of Asia. And remember even in the 1980's when new archeological evidence was being excavated which contradicted Japan's old theories about their evolution/origin culture, many people even whites scholars resist believing the new evidence, because they had developed a loyalty to Japans version of history. Eventaully, due to the amount of evidence, books like "Paekche of Korea to the Origin of Yamato, Japan" became the gold standard in current theories.
I don't know if a current dispute should be deleted like this. The debate is still strong in Japan and in Korea. Currently two historians Mr. Kang an honorary professor at Hanajo University and Mr. Lee an honorary professor of Wako University (Both schools are in Japan) have been collecting evidence of the Joseon Dynasty photographs and technology Joseon started using from the West and how the Country was trying to modernize before Japan interferred. In addition Mr. Lee spent 10 years of his life collecting tombstones modified by the Japanese with lime powder. Mostly 500 rubbing of King Gwanggaeto's tombs. The tombstones were modified during the Japanese occupation, but Mr lee wanted to know what the original script had said. He spent 10 years flying back and forth between Japan and Korea.
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200404/200404150011.html
Under Japanese invasion, this occurs <trying to expose some "perceived" distortion of history by Korea>. What does it mean that "perceived" is in quotes? Usually something is in quotes to indicate that it is not actually so, but only allegedly so. But, here, that would mean the perceived distortion were not really perceived? That doesn't make much sense to me. Sivamo 08:13, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think that's POV. -- Nc622 13:16, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The discussion like above isn't productive. Can we keep the tone down? And sign up to get ID so that we know who is talking. -- Nc622 13:16, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I erased the latter part of Apparent mistakes section. Do that kind of slander somewhere else.-- Nc622 14:57, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Although I created that section, I erased the whole part, since I believe the section itself became meaningless. Tangfe 16:25, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Oh, I see. So you erased that entire fight with Leonhart since it seemed like your arguments were totally baseless and invalid. Obviously, that put you at a disadvantage. ' Ah-hah! Now I get it. You're running way! Best idea you had in your whole life.' Samurai91
It is hard to understand why some anti-Japanese activists attack Japan constantly. The things these anti-Japanese activits write are highly offensive. For example, they move around to brand Japan as an extremely evil country, the Japanese as a whole as racist islanders. They really demonize Japan and the Japanese. Totally intolerable. They should definitely stop this. It is only detrimental. The more these Koreans attack Japanese, the more negative their image will become within Japan and other countries. The stuff that I have pointed out in the criticism towards Korea are facts. Although criticism may not be a friendly response, I thought these anti-Japanese activists won't stop without showing any expression of anger. Korean slanders, rumours and propaganda about Japan are acceptable but any critical remarks about Korea are interpreted as "mad"? Double standard. Tangfe
To Tangfe above: It seems we have a misunderstanding, Tangfe. First, you seem to think that I'm an anti-Japanese activist. Forgive me while I titter. Anti-Japanese activist? Really. Like you, Nc622, and Nanshu aren't part of some All-Japan Brotherhood that's bent on keeping Japan's dirty, good-for-nothing image. And Koreans slandering on Wikipedia? I'm sure there are also a few Japanese editors like Nanshu and Nc622 who go around cursing Korea at every available moment. As for you, Tangfe, don't try to play the good guy. It really doesn't fit you. After all you've done as a "foreigner" (neutral, my foot), you seem to have overlooked a few points in the relationship between Korea and Japan. Plus, why did you erase our argument? I beleive it is not illegal on Wikipedia to post your opinion and critiscm on the DISCUSSION page. What, are we re-entering a period of authotarian dictatorships, this time led by Japanese Internet users? Leonhart
Calm down. You're completely paranoid out of ignorance and not actually reading any of my posts. I'm not interested in your country in any ways. That means I don't have any emotional connections to Korea; I don't specially love your country nor hate it. Maybe you should rephrase the words to "criticizing Korea" for its apparent historical/social Japan-related problems. -- Nc622 16:22, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
So, Leonhart's going paranoid, you're not interested in Korea. 'Snort.' Yeah, we just all believed you. For your information, Leonhart is not raving simply because he is a lunatic (a fact I very much doubt). It's because guys like Tangfe just walk around blindly, hitting anything that gets in the way, which is in this case, criticism about Japan. And if you don't care about Korea, what are you doing on this discussion page anyway? Doing lunch, are we? Samurai91
I don't know what your problem is. I hope you won't resort to some childish argument like "don't discuss something you don't care about." What am I doing here on this "discussion" page? Well... let's use some time to think before you go all sarcastic and post something here.-- Nc622 04:57, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If you don't have an answer, just shove off. I couldn't care less about what Nc622 has to say about his "emotions toward Korea". I might've mentioned it at one point, but I'm really critical of what my Japanese homeland has to say to other East Asian countries. In fact, all Japan does is to give generous donations overseas, take advantage of the receiving countries' gratitude, dominate their markets, and move on, while in neighboring East Asia, all it does is ignore, ignore, ignore some more, and then revise its own historical wrongs. And by the way, Nc622, I don't have any problems in my life. Maybe it's you who needs to see a psychologist.-- Samurai91
Ha ha. Real funny, Nc622. As usual, you've put your keen and penetrating (snort) mind to the task coming to the wrong conclusion. For your information, I have been reading your posts, you dimwit, and just because I don't explicitly say so in my own comments doesn't mean I'm ignoring you or anything. And by the way, saying stuff like "This is a "discussion" page; what am I doing here?" really doesn't help you, 'cause you've already violated the principle of discussion with Tangfe by agreeing to the deletion of arguments that don't fit your personal view of history. To me, you just seem like an ignorant fool who considers the rules of nettiquette beneath him. Oh, and before Nc622 (that ugly git) says anything about me ignoring his "precious" posts (again), I'll address one of his useless suspicions: why didn't I mention any specific Japanese companies? It's because the news here in Shanghai NEVER mentioned any exact companies. All they showed me were the logos of companies such as Toyota and Honda in some African country. Happy, you slimeball?
P.S.-Insulting me by saying that I don't have the mental capacity to understand plain English seems to be a comment that disses yourself, since your sentences seem more grammatically incorrect than mine.-- Samurai91
To Nc622: Do you know that a recent broadcast by a Japanese TV channel fetured a so-called "historian" saying that the word "colonization" is incorrect when applied to the annexation of Korea by Japan in 1910? Did you also see how he went on to say that "all of Korea agreed" to the subjugation of itself to Japan? I mean, what kind of shit is this? We all know that Japan forced nearly all of its treaties on Korea, including the Protectorate Treaty of 1905 and the Korea-Japan Annexation Treaty of 1910. We also know that only a small minority of Korean officials actually signed the 1910 treaty out of free will. In this sense, the annexation of Korea fits perfectly into the term of "colonization". I hope this clears up your victimized sense of Japanese history, Nc622. Samurai91
I'm starting to clean up this article. I'm planning to erase basically the entire section on the cultural disputes since most of them are worthless, except for Zainichi and Corea/Korea(I think this is quite idiotic too, but considering how big the issue became in Korea during the World Cup, I decided to leave it).-- Nc622 17:19, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Zainichi (Resident Japan) is a euphemism for Koreans residing in Japan, most of them second- or third-generation Koreans who still hold either North or South Korean passports. Although they claim that they were kidnapped to Japan to work in Japan during the WWII., it is not true. The hearing investigation to the first-generation of Zainichi, which was made by the Korean Residents Union in Japan itself in 1988, disclosed the fact that almost all of them entered to Japan illegally after the end of WWII, in order to escape the redbaiting made by the South Korean goverment, to avoid ravages of the Korean War, or to persue their economic success. Generally, Koreans have been regarded as non-credible people, because they repeated barbarous acts such as murder, gang robbery and rape especially in the period of U.S. occupation, taking advantage of the fact that Japanese constabulary force weakened. To this day, the crime rate of Koreans in Japan is very high. Many Koreans living in Japan use Japanese names to deceive Japanese. Japanese Korean communities are split between affiliation to North or South Korea. Eespecially criticism against North Koreans are increasing, since the fact has revealed that the General Association of Korean Residents in Japan, an organizing body for North Koreans in Japan, assumed an important role in the kidnapping of many innocent Japanese as an agent of the goverment of North Korea. Koreans often complain that it is discrimination against Koreans that they do not have the right to participate in Japanese elections. However, they are simply treated as foreign residents, as other foreigners are done. Although Zainichis have their national rights as Koreans in their own countries, they insist that Japanese should give them privileges also in Japan. They face some problems on rare occasions in terms of marriage, employment and naturalization, and they also claim that it is an unreasonable discrimination. They intentionally omit or forget the fact that it is due to Japanese distrust of Koreans caused by Korean's bad conducts. Koreans claims in order not to repeat the 'mistakes' of the past Japan must learn the 'correct history' and not the distorted nationalistic version. However, the 'correct history' claimed by Koreans is filled with lie and fabrication, as seen in their claim of Zainichi's origin stated above. BS.
It is used even now is leading? Huh? - furrykef ( Talk at me) 23:04, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There seem to be two "sides" currently editing two sections of this page.
Comfort women
Someone is anonymously changing well established facts on this page about the comfort women issue. (Japan is currently just about the only country in which this issue is denied in varying degrees). If someone wants to present radically different point of view, then please present it here on the talk page. I suggest using the term "Comfort women" instead of "Sex slaves", the meaning of the term is properly explained on Comfort women. The section should for the most part be a summary of that article, not a political statement. JeroenHoek 10:19, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Zainichi-Koreans
Someone is anonmyously changing this section again into this:
The kidnapping issue is real (acknowledged by North Korea and Japan) and is as such an "issue" that should be present on this page. It does however recquire a new section in my opinion, because the current wording seems insulting to the Korean population in Japan as a generalisation. If someone has some text for such a parahraph, please post it, but I suggest we don't shuffle it in with the "Zainichi Koreans" section. JeroenHoek 10:19, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Recently a number of anonymous fascists try to spread their racist "victim-bashing" propaganda which are entirely unacceptable. They are not decent discussions, but hate propaganda which must be banned in any place. A serious measure (including lawsuit) must be taken. Everton 05:38, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Yasukuni Shrine is the resting place of nearly every Japanese soldier who has died in action since the Meiji Restoration of 1868. To state that it worships Class A war criminals without mentioning the thousands of others interrred there severly undermines the neutrality of this article and betrys a lack of adequate research on the part of the author(s).
Any specific references to support such a claim? If it is unsupported, remove. Kokiri 21:23, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
The ban of Japanese cultural imports into Korea (such as TV shows, movies, etc...) is a fact. There's a couple links to references on the
Contemporary culture of South Korea page, which I don't feel like posting right here, since I'm on a slow computer and it would take a bit of time for me to dig them up. As for other 'anti-Japanese' policies enforced by the South Korean government... I haven't personally heard of any. --
Zonath 04:38, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
Are you sure about this ? I'm pretty sure I've hired a number of Japanese, Chinese, Hong Kong-ese(? or Hong Kongans ?) movies from my local video shop(obviously I live in Korea). I think many articles people find are quite old. Koreans I know are pretty open-minded about the Japanese. I mean its all history now right? We should so totally move on. The rapes, curcifixion(is that how u spell it ?), human guinea-pigging etc etc were all atrocities that always happen when theres a war or occupation. We're just lucky there was no Hitler-oshi. I'm not being a "traitor" to my country (but if you're born and brought up in a different country - I grew up in the laid-back islands of the pacific by the way- you kinda take a step back and see it from a whole new angle) or anything and to prove it I'll say that the Japanese Government of the time could have at least put some proper government or something like that in place instead of leaving a power-vacuum so that the Soviets and the Americans could fight their bloody Cold war over our land. But yea,,, some scientists believe that oneday, a long long time later, we'll all be one race. Look at America, its a true melting pot, Scottish marrying Chinese, Koreans marrying Japanese, Americans marrying Pacific Islanders then their kids marrying other ethnic people,,, except the jewish and muslims will take their time about it... So, the conclusion is that all these things are history. History should be honoured not criticised and slandered over, so people in both Korea and Japan should honour their history by having some honour and shaking hands like good men, each apologizing for their actions and move into the future with a fresh start. Otherwise the Asian continent will forever be criticised by the West. And Japan, no matter how "western" you think you are you can't escape your roots. So yeah just embrace your asian-ness and be asian-friendly, I mean Japanese and Koreans and Chinese all come from the same cavemen-type prehistoric people and seriously Westerners all seem to think we look da same anyway. My friend Lisa used to be like "You Asians all look the same!" and well the Americans made so many mistakes in the Vietnam war because they couldn't tell the North Vietnamese from the South ones apart. Sorry this turned into some azn pride with hippy thing.
anyone think a brief section on korean/chinese demand for apologies would be appropriate? i'm thinking something along the lines of 3~4 sentences describing the history of the apologies (there's already a wiki list), & why korea thinks they're inadequate, that japan is tired of repeating them, that korea thinks japan's actions undermines their sincerity. i was sorta surprised there wasn't a section, but i'm ambivalent about whether one should be created. Appleby 17:34, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
with the popularity of anti-korean comics in japan, (ny times article) http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/19/international/asia/19comics.html?ei=5094&en=9089215d5cdce1cd&hp=&ex=1132462800&adxnnl=1&partner=homepage&adxnnlx=1132960076-1bQY0w6lE9PjxaDVXYV5Hw if anyone is actually reading this, what do you think should be added to page, if anything?
I found an interesteing point of view from the first paragraphs in the article:
Does this article want to say "Japan owes what it is today to Korea, so why does Japan ignores such facts while doing harm to Korea?" I find awkwardness in the usage of "However"---in the sentence before "However" it's claimed how enthusiastically Korea helped Japan develop, and after the "However" come invasion and annexation. What's the relation between these sentences?
And there seem to be some "contributions" by Korea cited above under debate. Rice farming is harder in the northern regions, especially in prehistory time. It developed later even in the northern China, and did cultivation of rice really begin earlier in Korea than Japan? I have thought that it was brought from southern China, via Taiwan and OKinawa Islands. Similarly, shamanism, ceremonial burial and pottery techniques can be questioned. Do ancient Korean shamanism and burial tradition resemble that of Japan? In this paragraph it's stated "Historical and archeological records indicate that..." so there seems to be evidence to support this, but I don't know it. - 222.4.16.15 14:50, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Even if those cultures were introduced from China to Japan by way of the Korean peninsula, it doesn't follow that "Koreans transmitted [them] to Japan" as if Koreans could take some credit and Japan should be thankful. The cultures were most likely transmitted as the result that certain people who had them immigrated to Japan. You cannot say that those people were either Korean or Japanese because there weren't such distinctive national identities as designated by the names of modern nation states back then. They were neither Korean nor Japan, or were as much Korean as were Japanese. It's not like "Koreans" suddenly visited Japan thousands of years ago, kindly taught the Japanese of various cultures free of charge, and went home. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 09:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Stop making the descriptions of events that are different in nature "symmetric" as if they are similar. History is not symmetric.
It is as much unfair as describing Comfort Women and North Korean abductions of Japanese in a "symmetric" manner just because they were both state crimes. You ought to write about the two events differently because the volume and gravity of the two were completely different. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 08:16, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Just how on earth could you write "Although South Korean-controlled currently and for most of its history" about Dokdo here without leaning toward a biased pov? You cannot find such a statement of heavily biased Korean pov on the main article Liancourt Rocks. For it's obvious that adding such a statement to the main article would cause an enormous NPOV dispute instantaneously. I simply cannot understand how you could add such a sentence in a mere summary here, and boldly claim that it is an accurate and neutral summary of the main article.
And what are these sentences that you just added?: "It has received substantial Korean influence due to its proximity to Korea. Briefly during the Joseon Dynasty, and possibly during the Silla era, it was Korean-controlled." Do you seriously believe that adding these while including no claim from the Japanese side is a neutral description of the issue and an accurate summary of the main article Tsushima island? Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 09:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Symmetry: You made the descriptions of Dokdo and Tsushima exactly the same (except certain respective names) WORD BY WORD. There exist NO articles on Wikipedia other than yours here that describes two different events in such an absurdly "symmetric" manner because it is just impossible for two given events to happen to be so completely "symmetric" for a fact unless you add in your bias (political or otherwise).
Liancourt Rocks: Just READ the main Liancourt Rocks article. Where does it make such a blatantly biased statement as "South Korean-controlled for most of its history"? How on earth could you claim that this is a npov? Your summary of this issue here boldly claims that Koreans have owned the rocks throughout the past history and practically that therefore the Korean claim on the rocks is perfectly valid and legitimate while Japan's claim is historically unfounded and utterly bogus. "South Korea" didn't even exist prior to 1945 for god's sake.
Tsushima: You added those two sentences to the Tsushima description here AFTER the beginning part of the original "Although Japanese-controlled currently and for most of its history" was removed, to the obvious advantage of the Korean claim. The two sentences were fair and balanced only because they were accompanied by this deleted part. Your edits deliberately omit every Japanese claim, show only the Korean claims and present the issues as if the Korean side is 100% right.
The introduction: There were no "Koreans" who "transmitted to Japan many cultural and technological advances." Whoever brought them to Japan, they were neither "Korean" nor "Japanese" as I showed above. Stating that "Koreans transmitted" is not only incorrect for a fact but also politically biased as it is obviously intended to imply that although "Koreans" kindly gave the Japanese all sorts of advanced cultures, the Japanese forgot gratitude and betrayed Koreans by invading the peninsula in the modern time, creating a major cause of the current animosity between the two nations. The only known fact is that various cultures were introduced from China to Japan by way of the Korean peninsula. This fact is irrelevant to "Korean-Japanese disputes" and so needs not to be included in this article even if true. For irrelevant facts do not need to be presented on Wikipedia even if they are true. The sentence "Japanese invasions of Korea and the 1910-1945 annexation..." in contrast should stay because it is both historically correct and relevant to the article. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 23:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
This is an article that summarizes "Korean-Japanese disputes." It doesn't need to mention:
For such facts are irrelevant to this article. For example, the Japanese rule of Korea 1910-1945 could be mentioned in the introduction only because it is argued to be responsible for creating various other disputes although the fact that Japan ruled Korea 1910-1945 itself is not being disputed. (Rule #2 applies.) In contrast, the fact that various cultures were introduced from China to Japan by way of the Korean peninsula has no relevance. For it is neither a disputed fact itself nor responsible for creating another dispute. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 00:05, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
And how are they supposed to be relevant to "Korean-Japanese disputes"? Anyway sketchy descriptions from secondary sources don't merit so much reference. There isn't such a thing as "Korean genes." That's just a lay term coined for casual readers. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 00:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
The genetic research results available today only show that the Japanese and the Koreans share some genes, and possibly that they share the same ancestors. It does not substantiate such a politicized claim as that "Koreans contributed Korean genes to the ancient Japanese" because the supposed common ancestors were neither "Korean" nor "Japanese," or they were as much Korean as were Japanese. The only thing that is certain is that the Koreans and the Japanese diverged somewhere on their way from Africa (where the entire human race supposedly originated about 150,000 years ago) to East Asia. The two could have diverged tens of thousands of years ago when they were still a primitive tribe wondering around upper Eurasia. In either way, the mere fact that the modernday Koreans and the modernday Japanese (or the Yayoi) share some genes does not substantiate the claim that the Japanese descended (1) from the "Koreans," or (2) from a people who had already settled on what is known today as the Korean peninsula at the time of divergence, or (3) from some known ancient kingdoms of "Korea" such as Paekche and Goguryo. For neither the exact time nor the location of genetic divergence could be known from the currently available research results. The use of terms like "Korean genes" only shows the scientific inaccuracy of the article although it may be useful to make the article more interesting and easier to understand for common readers.
The oldest historical record available in Korea is Samguk Sagi that was written in 1145, and the Koreans today have to rely on much older Japanese records (e.g. Kojiki (712) and Nihonshoki (720)) and Chinese records to know what their ancient culture was like. The language of Goguryo, for example, is barely known today because of the extremely scarce resources. That is, they can't even tell if those allegedly "Korean" kingdoms were really Korean for sure, or if they were closer to the modern Koreans than to the modern Japanese (or the modern Chinese for that matter). If the culture of those kingdoms happened to be closer to that of the Japanese people, it's more accurate to say that the Koreans came from the Japanese and not vise versa due to their proximity to the original. That the supposed common ancestors might have been living on the peninsula back then does not guarantee that they were the most direct descendants of the modernday Koreans for merely living on the Korean peninsula does not make you a Korean ethnic.
Also, none of the sources that you cited above say that "Koreans" introduced rice farming and the rest to Japan. They only say that those cultures were introduced to, or spread to, Japan, with immigration from the Korean Peninsula. They are expressed in a passive construction with those cultures themselves as the subject. Besides almost every ancient Korean culture came from China anyway. There isn't much that Koreans could take credit for. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 01:37, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
If Korea didn't exist. Then Japan didn't exist either. Its common sense. If Korea didn't existed then Japan must be formed off the coast of Hawaii right??? HOW STUPID CAN YOU GET.
Stop rewriting the npov statement "cultural developments were transmitted from the Chinese area to the Japanese islands by way of the Korean peninsula" to your biased and inaccurate version "Koreans transmitted cultural developments to Japan". Your version is:
Besides this is an article to summarize various issues disputed by Japan and Korea, not a place to boast how kindly the Koreans enlightened the savage Japanese in old days. The entire sentence is irrelevant in the first place. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 07:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
It does not become relevant just because you say so. Explain in detail in what way it is relevant. Or I'll start adding info on how greatly the Japanese rule improved the life of Koreans during the colonial period and how much Koreans have been influenced by modern Japanese culture if they could be "relevant" if I say so: [방송 일본 TV 베끼기 “아직도 그대로네” ] (Chosun Ilbo, July 23 2002), MBC´일밤´´추격남녀´도 표절의혹 (Dailian, August 23, 2005), 김청기 감독 “표절이라니…서글프다” (September 22, 2005), [6] [7], [8], [9], [10].
I told you that your version is also unfounded/unsourced. The webpages that you cited above only say:
None of them say "Koreans transmitted..." like you did. And your version is inaccurate because there were no "Koreans" back then. Use more accurate and exact terms such as Koguryo or Paekche or Silla. Or use "Korean peninsula."
Talking about the ancient "Korean" kingdoms, Jared Diamond and Peter Bellwood argued in their article that appeared in the April 25 2003 issue of Science that "Modern Japanese is not at all like Korean" and that "Modern Korean derived from the ancient Sillan" whereas "Japanese may have evolved from another ancient Korean language, Koguryo" ( New York Times, May 6, 2003). In other words, it's more accurate to say that Koguryo was more "Japanese" than was "Korean." If Koreans today claim that Koguryo was one of their ancestors, then it's also equally valid to say that the Japanese were the ancestors of modern Koreans. For after all they are claiming that the Koreans are the ancestors of the Japanese just because the Japanese Yayoi were "Korean-like."
I don't see the big deal about Korean pottery. It's not like Japan did not have any pottery on their own. What was introduced from Korea were only some styles and technics at most:
If the introduction of Korean potary was so significant, Japanese swords that influenced Korean sword could be mentioned in the article as well:
There is no objective evidence for the claim that Kohun came from Korea. It's only a hypothesis. In fact the opposite (that Kofun was made earlier in Japan and later introduced to Korea) could be the case just as likely. See 일본식 닮은 영산강가 5~6세기 고분 (Hankyoreh, September 6 2001) for example. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 09:02, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
None of "scholarly articles" do. [11] is from New York Times, which is not an academic journal. [12] is from Discover, again a magazine for for general audience. [13] and [14] that you cited above use no such expressions as "Koreans."
"Korea" and "Japan" only refer to the geographical area and their use is not an issue here. What's controversial is the names of nations or peoples. You should use the names of kingdoms and tribes at the time such as Koguryo and Yayoi rather than those of modern nation states to be accurate, as much as you don't use names like " Germans" or " French" or " Italians" when you talk about ancient European history.
Your "general idea" is a Korean pov, often based only on a simpleton assumption that Japan is located to the east of Korea and culture and people moved from west (China) to east. Be more specific when you say that culture was transmitted from Korea to Japan unilaterally rather than "cultural exchange." The majority of advanced cultures that were introduced to Japan in the ancient times came from China and so are irrelevant to this article because Korea was only a bridge in between. Limit yourself to ones that clearly originated in Korea. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 00:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
NYT's wording is not good enough and should be changed to better and more accurate ones whenever possible. Besides the NYT article doesn't use expressions like yours.
Like I said, those "ideas" and "contributions" came from China to Japan, by way of the Korean peninsula. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 00:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Their cases had been rejected because all was settled with the 1965 treaty and the San Francisco Peace Treaty and there is no constitutional ground for them to demand compensation unless they will make a new law.
This is exactly what prompted those Korean victims to demand the South Korean government to disclose those secret documents. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 18:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Stop quoting that misleading sketchy sentence from an article on history textbook. I have already shown you the very legal ground on which those Korean women lost at Japanese courts:
This is what the legal authority of Japan decided, and their position was confirmed to be right by the secret documents of the 1965 treaty that just came out last year. That's why the Korean victims are now preparing to sue the South Korean government. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 19:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
They also filed a lawsuit in the U.S. and lost there as well.
Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 19:39, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The treaty bars any further compensation. The fact of the matter is that no one shares your interpretation or is trying to file yet another case against the Japanese government after the disclosure of those documents last year. They are preparing to sue the South Korean government instead for a good reason. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 19:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
That commission report was published 4 years earlier than the disclosure of the documents that show that the burden to compensate individual victims was transferred from the Japanese government to the South Korean government with the 1965 treaty. No one waived the liability. The South Korean government is still liable to compensate the victims. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 20:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
That Japan Times article of yours is a very sketchy one and does not describe any details of the documents. Here is the more detailed description:
The Japanese government has fulfilled the responsibility to compensate individual victims by giving 800 million dollars to the South Korean government. The South Korean government received the money on behalf of the individual victims, and promised to compensate individual victims on behalf of the Japanese government. No one's right to compensation was waived since the victims have a legitimate right to demand compensation from the South Korean government. It wouldn't be the fault of the Japanese government if those Korean victims were cheated by their own government. If they haven't received any compensation, then that's the liability of the South Korean government, not of the Japanese government. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 20:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The South Korean government agreed not to demand any further compensations because the Japanese government has already compensated individual victims with the treaty. In other words, the Japanese government fulfilled the obligation, not just "waived." You can't demand an infinite amount of compensation from Japan forever.
The liability is merely transferred to the South Korean government. Victims' right to compensation is not waived. The treaty has not deprived individuals of the right to seek any compensations. It has only changed the body from whom the victims could demand compensations. They only need to exercise the right toward the South Korean government now.
The South Korean government only paid measly 2,570 million won to victims out of 800 million dollars received from Japan. Let the South Korean government use the rest of the money to compensate comfort women before requesting more "liability."
That old UN report, published 4 years before the disclosure of those important documents, is wrong for assuming that Japan has only paid state-to-state compensation and has not compensated any individual victims. As a matter of fact the Japanese government paid 800 million dollars to the South Korean government on the assumption that the South Korean government will take care of the compensation of individual victims. That the South Korean government failed to do so is not something that could be blamed on the Japanese government. The criticism presented in the UN report has become invalid now because it is based on an assumption that has been proven wrong by the secret documents that came out last year. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 00:44, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
The UN report only says that "states cannot agree by treaty to waive the liability of another state for crimes against humanity." However, no one "waved" any liability of Japan as evidenced by the secret document that came out last year. In fact Japan rightly assumed the liability for the compensation of victims by providing $800 million dollars to Korea. If the victims have been sufficiently compensated, they don't have a right to demand further compensations any longer. The compensation liability of the perpetrator is dissolved once the compensation is paid in full.
The issue at stake here is that there are still victims of the Japanese rule who have not been compensated. Japan cannot be held liable for their predicament not because the liability of Japan was waived by the South Korean government in the treaty but because Japan has already paid a sufficient amount of compensation money to the South Korean government on the premise that the South Korean government will use it to compensate the individual victims on Japan's behalf. That the South Korean government violated this premise by paying measly 2,570 million won to the victims out of 800 million dollars while spending the rest for economic development is not the fault of the Japanese government but of the South Korean government. It must be noted that the South Korean government is the liable party for compensating those victims more fully.
No one says that Japan is not liable for any compensation of individual victims at all. Indeed Japan is liable. That's why the Japanese government paid 800 million dollars. However, you cannot claim that Japan is still liable for further compensation when the South Korean government unjustly appropriated the money that the Japanese government paid as compensation. The victims could demand further compensation from Japan only when the 800 million dollars turns out to be insufficient, i.e., only when all the money from the treaty has been used to compensate victims and still there are left victims who have not been compensated.
Agence France-Presse: Tokyo Court rejects Korean comfort woman's compensation appeal (November 30, 2000): "The Japan-Republic of Korea Basic Relations Treaty stipulates that liabilities for wartime acts of Japan and its people against Korea and its people are legally erased, the ruling added." Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 02:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
In the subsection "Sea of Japan/East Sea", there is a sentence that "Japan's influence over Korean foreign policy grew following the Treaty of Ganghwa of 1875." However, Western countries also concluded unequal treaties with Korea, not only Japan. In addition, Japan itself also had unequal treaties with Western countries but it is not said that there were influence over Japanese foreign policy. Further more, it was China who had most significant influence on Korea until 1894 and Russia until 1905. Therefore, the age should not be 1875 but 1905, I think. I need some comments from others. -- Corruptresearcher 03:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
If their wasn't Korea or Korean Peninsula. Then Japan wouldn't exist. Cannot argue with Geographical Location between two countries. Yes, Japanese as a race, culture and country exist because of Koreans and Korean peninsula
Deleting "some consider this debate to be meaningless" edit is a blatant attempt at censorship. None of the arguments in this section is attributed to particular individual. Rightly so given that it is part of public debate both in Korea and Japan. And anyone who has come across this debate know that this-debate-is-meaningless line of argument exists. This particular POV is not presented as a fact. If Appleby prefer to attribute this argument to Japanese side, feel free to do so. But please do not delete the entire sentence. I felt that attribution to Japanese side would make Korean looks more partisan (hence less NPOV) but hey, I'm not complaining as long as this view get a presentation. FWBOarticle 20:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
you've got to be kidding me with the current language on the history disputes. i guess readers will know better than to expect a real professional, encyclopedia-like article on this topic in wikipedia, but the current crazy rant is pretty embarrassing. i'll actually leave that alone as a fun example of what can go wrong. Appleby 18:43, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
If Korean and Japanese is defined in term of "nation" rather than "ethnicity", Japanese nation can claim continuous lineage from Emperor Jimmu (traditionally dated to February 11, 660 BCE according to Japanese mythology), while the current Korea "state" originate from the Treaty of San Francisco in 1952, an indirect insult about the Korea's annexation to Japan. Good Lord, please read History of Japan and History of Korea articles. Also, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is a good start as well. Deiaemeth 00:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Goguryeo and Buyeo are of the Manchurians, not of the "Koreans." -- 222.3.71.57 16:34, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Deiaemeth (or DueDiehcal) Please write the deletion reason. -- Kamosuke 04:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I've termed the excerpt for reasons of NPOV and various spelling & grammar mistakes. I don't know on what grounds you accuse me of using other Editor names. I've also deleted very poorly-termed excerpt contributed by user who uses IP [219.66.40.198]]. It read something like "Koreans are angry". Deiaemeth 02:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 06:29, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
any sources indicating the crime rate within japan is a source of dispute between korea and japan, in the same sense as the other topics here? what is korea's position in this "dispute"? does south korea support an increase in japan's crime rate? are the crimes being committed as a protest against japan's 1910 annexation of korea? Appleby 18:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
cite please? visa waiver is not a "dispute," any more than any other countless diplomatic discussions are "disputes" that belong here. if you do consider it a dispute, then the topic of the japan-korea discussion is visa waiver, with the crime rate being one of japan's internal considerations. Appleby 19:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, South Korean's criminals doesn't increase. And, it doesn't decrease. Applyby,Shall I add detailed information on the South Korean criminal more?-- Kamosuke 18:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
If Applyby is neutral, he will delete the topic against which the South Korea government is not protesting against Japanese Government. ( Tsushima/Daemado, Sea of Japan/East Sea, Korea instead of Corea) -- Kamosuke 18:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
1. shall we publish two articles in one topic?
The article is classified into "Insistence of South Korea" and "Insistence of Japan". The South Korean records the insistence of South Korea. The Japanese records the insistence of Japan. It doesn't interfere mutually in the other party's insistence. -- Kamosuke 10:16, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
2. shall we classify it? "History issue" , "Cultural problem" , "Crime problem" ...etc
South Korea is not participating in WW2. Korea is not invited to [Treaty of San Francisco]. I do not think that this title is appropriate.
1.Reason to delete Carter Eckert
2.Reason to delete insistence on Koizumi
Koizumi has repeatedly said he visits the shrine to pray for peace and honour the dead, not to glorify militarism.
3.Reason to delete "An increase of South Korean criminals in Japan" 4.Who is disputes Visa waivers?
who disputes the crime statistics? it's not a korean-japanese dispute, as i already mentioned above. saintjust above said it is part of visa waiver considerations, but that's internal japanese consideration, not afaik contested by korea, & in any case moot now. & generally, details belong in specific articles, as this is a summary list already too long.
Appleby
17:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Simply, Tsushima and Corea,Zainichi.... who disputes the crime statistics?
If you hope, I introduce "Violation of the license of South Korea" and "Unlawful business of hunters in South Korea". And, shall I introduce the problem that the Koreans hopes for a Japanese-name? It questions simply. Please answer No or Yes. (Please explain the reason if You choice "No". ) 1.A lot of South Koreans are doing the crime in Japan. 2.The Japanese is making South Korean's criminal a problem. 3.Tsushima and Corea, This is a discussion that is bigger than South Korean's crime.
(Please explain the reason if You choice "No". )
211.131.244.197 22:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC) <- -- Kamosuke 22:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
No. They are not Korean-Japanese disputes. Appleby 22:30, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Korean-Japanese disputes From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search It has been suggested that this article or section be merged with Japanese-Korean relations. (Discuss) Korea (both North and South) and Japan have had disputes on many issues over the years.
The two nations have had a complex history of cultural exchange, trade, and war which underlies relations today. In the ancient era, many cultural developments were transmitted by immigrants from Korea to Japan. [1] Later, Korea was also influenced by trade and diplomacy with Japan. The subsequent Japanese invasions of Korea (Seven-Year War, 1592-1598) and the 1910-1945 annexation, however, have scarred relations since.
Today, South Korea and Japan are major trading partners and many students, tourists, entertainers, and businesspeople travel between the two countries. In recent years, Japanese pop culture has become not only popular but also legal in South Korea; similarly (South) Korean pop culture has become popular in Japan as well. North Korea, however, has few political or economic relations with Japan.
The following unresolved issues continue to make headlines regularly, and issues arising from Japan's militant past also often involve China and other Asian countries. The respective governments are also often accused of exploiting nationalism for political purposes.
Contents [hide] 1 Korea under Japanese rule 1.1 Yasukuni Shrine 1.2 Comfort Women 1.3 History Textbooks 1.4 Compensation 1.5 Apology 2 Geographic disputes 2.1 Dokdo/Takeshima 2.2 Tsushima/Daemado 2.3 Sea of Japan/East Sea 3 Other issues 3.1 Origin of Korean and Japanese 3.2 Ban on Japanese Culture 3.3 Kidnapping of Japanese Citizens 3.4 Zainichi Koreans 3.5 Korea instead of Corea 4 See also
[edit] Korea under Japanese rule Main article: Korea under Japanese rule
North and South Korea demand sincere repentance and compensation for Japan's occupation of Korea. Beginning with an "Unequal Treaty" in 1875, Japan increased its control of Korea and then officially annexed it in 1910. The next 35 years are viewed by Koreans as a period of brutal exploitation and Japanese suppression of Korean culture. Some Japanese, however, claim that the occupation helped form the foundation for the industrialization and modernization of Korea today.
[edit] Yasukuni Shrine Main article: Yasukuni Shrine
Visits by Japanese leaders to Yasukuni Shrine, dedicated to those who fought on behalf of imperial Japan, have ignited protests in Korea, China, and other Asian countries. In 1978, 14 convicted Class-A war criminals and about 1,000 others convicted for war crimes during World War II were secretly enshrined. The shrine's publications began defending, even glorifying, Japanese war atrocities. Though Japanese emperors have not visited the shrine since, three Japanese leaders have paid their respects there. Current prime minister Junichiro Koizumi has visited five times since taking office in 2001.
[edit] Comfort Women Main article: Comfort Women
The Korean government has demanded compensation for women who were forced to work in military brothels during World War II for Japanese imperial soldiers. As the few surviving sex slaves, called "comfort women," continue to struggle for acknowledgment and apology, the Japanese court system rejected such claims on the ground of the statute of limitation. However, Japanese government arranged some monetary compensation by private funds, not through official channels.
[edit] History Textbooks Main article: Japanese history textbook controversies
The Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology (MEXT) reviews the content of school history textbooks available for selection by schools in Japan. Foreign scholars, as well as many Japanese historians, have criticized the political slant and factual errors of some textbooks that have been approved. After the revisionist Tsukurukai's textbook passed inspection in April 2001, South Korea demanded the revision of 25 parts of the textbook, to no avail. This aroused resentment among supporters of the book who felt that Korea was interfering in Japanese domestic affairs. So far, Tsukurukai's textbook has been adopted by less than 0.1% of the schools, but has become a bestseller in the general book market, and have caused other textbooks to shift to the right, for example, by omitting reference to sex slaves. [2]
In both North and South Korea, only one series of history textbooks each, which is published by the government, are allowed for use in schools. Some Japanese scholars claim that these textbooks use biased information in criticizing Japan and the Japanese occupation of Korea.
[edit] Compensation Main article: Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea
Twenty years after the end of World War II, Japan and South Korea re-established diplomatic relations by signing the Treaty on Basic Relations in 1965. In 2005, South Korea disclosed diplomatic documents that detailed the proceedings of the treaty. The documents, kept secret for 40 years, revealed that Japan provided 800 million dollars in grants and soft loans to South Korea as compensation for its 1910-45 colonial rule, and that South Korea agreed to demand no further compensations, either at the government or individual level, after the treaty. [3] It has also been revealed that the South Korean government assumed the responsibility for compensating individuals on a lump sum basis [4] while rejecting Japan's proposal for direct compensation. [5] However, the South Korean government used most of the grants for economic development and have failed to provide adequate compensation to victims, paying only 300,000 won per death, a total of 2,570 million won only to the relatives of 8,552 victims who died in forced labor. [6] [7] As the result, the Korean victims are preparing to file a compensation suit against the South Korean government as of 2005.
It should be noted that the treaty does not preclude individual suits against Japanese individuals or corporations but such suits are often constrained by the statute of limitation. The Women's International War Crimes Tribunal 2000 on Japan Military Sexual Slavery, a mock trial organised by NGOs, issued a ruling that "states cannot agree by treaty to waive the liability of another state for crimes against humanity." [8]
[edit] Apology Main article: List of war apology statements issued by Japan
Japan's prime ministers have issued official apologies several times, including Prime Minister Obuchi in the Japan-Republic of Korea Joint Declaration of 1998, and Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi in the Japan-DPRK Pyongyang Declaration of 2002. [9] Koizumi said "I once again express my feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology, and also express the feelings of mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, in the war." [10] While Koreans welcomed the earlier apologies, many now view the repeated statements as insincere, because of continuing actions of Japanese officials on the other issues listed here.
[edit] Geographic disputes [edit] Dokdo/Takeshima Main article: Liancourt Rocks
Although currently under South Korean control, these islets are claimed by Japan. Called "Dokdo" in Korean and "Takeshima" in Japanese, but also known as the Liancourt Rocks, the islets' surrounding waters have rich fishing grounds and possible reserves of natural gas.
In 1900, Korea incorporated it into Ulleung county. In January 1905, 10 months before Korea became a Japanese protectorate in November, Japan incorporated the islets under the doctrine of terra nullius. In January 1952, South Korea's Syngman Rhee line declaration included the Liancourt Rocks as Korean territory. In September 1954, Japan proposed to submit this problem to the International Court of Justice but South Korea rejected the proposal.
There is relatively less awareness of the dispute among the Japanese. North Korea supports the South Korean claim.
[edit] Tsushima/Daemado Main article: Tsushima Island
Although Japanese-controlled currently, this island is claimed to be Korean by some Koreans, although not by the South Korean government. Called "Tsushima" in Japanese and "Daemado" in Korean, it was Korean-controlled briefly during the Joseon Dynasty, and possibly during the Silla era.
In 2005, when Japan's Shimane Prefecture announced Takeshima Day claiming the Liancourt Rocks as part of its jurisdiction, Korea's Masan city council proclaimed Daemado Day and declared it Korean territory.
[edit] Sea of Japan/East Sea Main article: Sea of Japan naming dispute
Both North and South Korea insist that Japan unfairly promoted the standardization of the name "Sea of Japan" while Korea effectively lost control over its foreign policy under Japanese imperial expansion. South Korea argues that the name "East Sea", one of the various names found on ancient European maps of this sea, should be the official name instead of, or at least concurrently with, "Sea of Japan". Japan claims that most Western countries named it the "Sea of Japan" prior to 1860, before Japan's influence over Korean foreign policy grew after the outbreak of First Sino-Japanese War in 1894.
[edit] Other issues [edit] Origin of Korean and Japanese Main article: Origin of Korean and Japanese
The Korean and Japanese people share closely-linked ethnic, cultural and anthropological history. There were large influxes of immigration from Korea during Yayoi and Yamato periods of Japan, which which brought much culture and technology to Japan. [11] [12] Archeological, genetic, and linguistic evidence indicates a complex but close formative relationship, [13] but nationalists and some historians in both nations continue to dispute the direction, timing, and degree of influences.
There's somebody who is trying to deleting from this article the sentence "However, they were changed into Korean style and audience did not know they were from Japan." This person may know nothing about anime or manga. This is no POV. This fact is common sence among Korean and Japanese anime fans. For example, Yoon Son-ha, a Korean famous actress, had thought that Doraemon is a Korean character before she visited Japan (source:"Boku Doraemon" vol.9 by Shogakukan). The Ashita No Joe is called "Challenger Hurricane" in Korea and all the characters were changed to Koreans. Almost all of the anime introduced to Korea were changed to Korean style and the audience did not know they are from Japan before the removal of the ban on Japanese culture. If you can read the Korean language, read 재패니메이션.-- Michael Friedrich 13:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Isn't that the exact same thing that happens when anime gets imported overseas? Nowadays, most animes and mangas retain their Japanese names. Anywho, When Manga and anime gets imported to other countries, the character names get changed - I don't see people complaining when all the character names of Pokemon was changed in the US version, and when you see the opening credits, it looks as if it was made in the US. Also, See [27] - If you can read Korean, you'll note that the author's name hasn't been erased, and is perfectly clear to anyone who's reading the manga that Doraemon was drawn by a Japanese manga-ka. Deiaemeth 05:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
if you look at your link carefully, you'll see that it's more of an editorial from "ohmy" news, which collects "citizen volunteer" articles. it's not a serious reference source. furthermore, even in this article it says animation in general was gov't & self-regulated, & says other countries also modify foreign programs for their national audience. maybe i'm missing something, but tv stations up to the 80's were heavily gov't controlled or outright owned by the gov't, so i'm not understanding how they could have broadcast "banned" material. or, unrelated to the link you provided, are you saying individual smugglers renamed, edited, dubbed & repackaged unlicensed copies illegally in a way different from common piracy of other media? again, please provide source, thanks. Appleby 18:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
According to official Wikipedia policy, "Wikipedia articles include material on the basis of verifiability, not truth. That is, we report what other reliable sources have published, whether or not we regard the material as accurate." You have provided no reliable source for your claims. See also WP:V: "Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false. As counter-intuitive as it may seem, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." "English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly." You have not provided any reliable sources, much less any in english. please read the wikipedia policies first. thanks. Appleby 07:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
how can you say there are reliable sources, without providing them? as i explained above, the korean article says that animation in general, as children's programming, was regulated, and that other countries also modify foreign programs for domestic audience. i don't doubt that foreign ( european, u.s., & japanese) programs were modified for the local audience, as they do in japan, u.s., or most any other country. but what makes this a uniquely korean phenomenon relevant to korea-japan disputes, & what reputable source says so? Appleby 07:54, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thanks for the offer, but please read WP:V, WP:NOR, & WP:NPOV to see how to provide verifiable unbiased sources for wikipedia articles. Appleby 08:15, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
that part is obviously an editorial by the author of "ohmy" news, essentially a blog of individual volunteer "reporters." those sentences say what the author thinks should happen, not describe reality. Appleby 08:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
...etc, etc. Deiaemeth 23:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Simply, The Korean's insistence is an incorrect answer. (The Australian's insistence is correct. ) The intellect in Koreans evaluates the Japanese culture. However, the Koreans who doesn't have knowledge doesn't evaluate the Japanese culture. They believe that Koreans told the Japanese culture. (Of course, China and the Netherlands are origins in the Japanese culture. ) The South Korean believes that there is a culture that is more excellent than Japan in South Korea. (Of course, there is no superiority or inferiority in the culture. ) Therefore, the South Korean doesn't admit the Japanese culture. However, there are wonderful Game, Manga, and Anime in Japan. And, a lot of South Koreans are crazy about Game and Manga of Japan. To solve this contradiction, the South Korean devised an original method. The author of Manga and Anime of Japan was changed to South Korean's name. And, a name of a place of Japan and Japanese name was changed in the Korea style. (Of course, the author's approval is not obtained. )
Poet Han-Son-Ho in South Korea is answering in the interview of a Korean daily report. I was boasting of South Korea Manga when I was a child. It knew that the South Korea cartoon was made in Japan when I grew up. As a result, I seemed to be crazy. [ http://japanese.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2002/10/18/20021018000033.html ]
If the Koreans hopes, I introduce the page that brings PAKURI(act of stealing the Japanese culture) of South Korea.
Dear Deiaemeth. If you lived in Japan, you could see that "most Japan teachers' union are against the textbook by the Tsukurukai".
......There're too much information. See [29] and [30].
I don't get why you change "Comfort Women" to Sex Slaves.
I have found a site where it has information that can help the article or the discussion in any way. [31].
Can someone who both know what is tried to be said, and who is also able to write proper english fix the last sentence in that paragraph? "A lot of Zainichi is a leader of Boryokudan that the National Police Agency in Japan specified." ??? Thanks.
Yes, korea had been invaded by japan in the 20th century during world war 2, but it was becauses of imperialistic tactics that were imposed on japn years ago by America creating the meiji era. The Shinto is a traditional prayer to the elders and the "god" which is the Tenno himself. Much like korean confuscism, Japanese shinto is culture, not a religion. Also during the colonization of korea by japan, industry rose up and the massive indusrialaztion that took europe and America almost 200 years to finish and take korea and japan 50 years. And yes it was not intended by the japanese to industrialize kore, infact they were order by the government in Japan to keep the numbers of korean employers as minimal as possible. In the end, i say it was not the intent of the whole japanese people but the idea of individuals in politics hoping to expand an island country due to angry ex-bushido code warriors and new imperialistic ideas that was set on them too early. It was not japan, it was the times.
rescent studies believed that korea and Japane with identical writing structures, costumes in ancient burial and religions have a common source of ancestry. But a newer study believes japanese culture recieved other immigrants from Russia, the Indo-islands and parts of pascific islands, where koreans were strictly culturly tied down to china. This means that while culturly Japan and Korea is the same, it is not due to race but trade of ideas and people. Skilled workes were sent to japan by korean kings and is proven in japanese tombs where burial great burial sites were proveen to be of korean origens. Also due to the seven years war, korean artillary and smelting recieved alot from japan int heir use of guns.
"you guys?" i am korean. Also imperialistic ideas of japan had induced favorable terms like the holocaust. Since the death of koreans are put more on emphasis thane the masacre in China and other pacific ex-colonies of japan, we koreans are set to be stubborn to the majority of the world. And yes japanese text books and professors do not admit to the history of korean massacres and tortures but its not because of personal vendetta of the japanese people but the fragile political foundations that the U.S. had set when leaving upon prior to the Korean war.
Even today, in many other European languages, Korea is spelled as Corea. Furthermore, at the time in question, Japan desired to be called Nippon in English ("N" coming after both "C" and "K"). Korea counters this by saying that Japan knew that the "Western World" would not listen. So Japan ultimately thought of Korea as "Korea" with a K and not a C. In the end, no one will really know what happened.
This is SO LOL. But could anybody provide reference for this? ( Wikimachine 02:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC))
I'm really not getting why people are making such a big deal about this "K" and "C" thing ?!! In Spanish you spell it with a "C" and in English with a "K", does it really matter how its spelt ? All I know is that some foreign(can't remember if they were Arabic or European) came to Korea when Korea was still called Go-ryeo and when they couldn't pronounce it it went to Gorea and kept evolving and nowadays Korea is called Korea, Corea whatever.
Japan has recently proposed an idea to rename Liancourt Rocks as Takeishima.... They have proposed this to Oxford college World Atlas who has ironically accepted this.... So in their Atlas, it says that Liancourt Rock is Takeishima... Fails to mention that it belongs to Korea and mention its real name Dokdo..... How does Japan convince the world that everything is theirs??? I wonder greatly... Japan has also proposed the idea of "Sea of Japan"(see discussion on Sea of Japan) Usually, a sea is named after a mainland... In this case, the Korean Peninsula.... Japan has spread their Imperial ideas through this... For Korea, it has been a painful experience watching their territories and their marginal sea be renamed before their eyes.... Please add more below... By Daniel McBeth
I am strongly suggesting that you, User:NekoNekoTeacher should discuss firstly if you have an objection in the currently article based on the literature. -- Hairwizard91 16:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
So,
i) The war of Mongol and Goryeo with Japan
ii) The editing of this article
Do not be confused the current article from the wars of Mongol and Japan.-- Hairwizard91 17:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
If the conclusion is said, This is a personal attack. . Mongolia is not related to this article at all. He was not able to point out a concrete mistake though I demanded when I had to point out a concrete mistake to him. Therefore, I reject Hairwizard91s demand. Please write if there is a rebuttal about the trial of Mitubishi. -- NekoNekoTeacher 10:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the Racist Magnas such as: "Hate The Korean Wave" or "Why we should Hate South Korea" among others Showing Sterotypical And Racist Images of Koreans and Chinese should be included as a part of Korean-Japanese Disputes. just my 2 cents I plan on creating it or helping if someone else wants to take the Reins. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Easternknight ( talk • contribs) 23:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC).
Following Japan-Korea relations, I'd like to suggest moving the article to Japan-Korea disputes, following the alphabetically arranged naming scheme for titles of international relations studies. ( Wikimachine 04:05, 23 February 2007 (UTC))
It seems that a few editors wish rewriting of the intro like the following from the current version.
"Currently under South Korean control, these islets are also claimed by Japan. The islets are called "Dokdo" in Korean and "Takeshima" in Japanese. There are valuable fishing grounds around the islets and reserves of natural gas have also been found recently."
However, it already discussed about this intro issue for long time on the main article's talk page, and it has reached agreement with the current version. If you will force revert without an explanation from now on, it will be regarded as vandalism. Because you will be violate of POV fork unless you are able to be convinced of other editors in the main article.-- Watermint 14:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
The current intro seems to me surely Japanese POV. Therefore, I propose rewriting as follows;
The Japanese government protests that the name "Sea of Japan" is geographically and historically established in Europe from the late 18th century to the early 19th century and is currently used all over the world. But, both North and South Korean governments protest
insistthat Japan promoted the usage of the name " Sea of Japan" while Korea lost effective control over its foreign policy under Japanese imperial expansion. South Korea argues that the name "East Sea," which was one of the most common names found on ancient European maps of this sea, should be the official name instead of (or at least used concurrently with) "Sea of Japan."
The description which is "the same with the title of "East Sea"" should be attached the reliable citation. At first, please present us the reliable citation.-- Watermint 14:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I'm thinking that the paragraph does not need to delete cause I seem to be written based on some sources. -- Watermint 14:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
No wonder this article may have a long history of edit warring because it has controversial issues itself and has been designated as one on the watchlist by Japanese editors deeply associated with 2channel, the largest Internet forum not only in Japan but also in the world. The watch list encompasses throughout articles related to Japan and Korea and some of China. Unfortunately, many Japanese meat/sock puppets relevant the board have been deeply involved in editing those articles. Therefore, I leave a note for people to be cautious in future. You can see the whole list as clicking the collapsed box.
● refers to problematic articles by 2channel people
○ for articles with heated edit warring
I hope everything is clear soon. -- Appletrees ( talk) 14:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Japanese-Korean_disputes&diff=195226158&oldid=194097498
Since it is proved at WP:ANI that Jjok has violated several important rules in editing articles, I checked this disputed article which he edited and not surprisingly he did wonderful job like the above. Well, I saw Jjok expanded environment issues of Japan, so he likely put the almost same contents to there. I think this section be revised and discussed. Besides, Sea of Japan (East Sea) is not solely administered by Japan, but Jjok described such which is a violation on WP:NPOV.-- Appletrees ( talk) 19:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The controversy of South Korean waste dumping into Sea of Japan and Poaching and ghost-fishing in Japanese EEZs and joint fishing zones of Japanese-Korean disputes has occurred. A Korean user Appletrees insists that "The Sea of Japan is not being ruled by Japan. Only Japan is making noise to the pollution of the Sea of Japan. Therefore, this problem is not "Discussion of Japan and Korea.". And, he deleted all these parts. [33] [34] [35] However, the Japanese loves Sea of Japan. Therefore, the Japanese is worrying about the pollution of the Sea of Japan. The Japanese and the South Korean are beginning the edit war. Can anyone mediate this problem? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.168.215.11 ( talk) 07:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
These problems are admitted also even in South Korea. (Please look at the source. )Dishonor in South Korea should not be concealed. -- 61.23.15.246 ( talk) 04:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
"Zainichi (在日, Resident Japan) refers to Koreans currently residing in Japan" If you look at the "Zainichi Koreans" article is points to it clearly says that Zainichi usually refers to Koreans that permanently live in Japan. It can be used for any group that permanently live in Japan like Zainichi Chinese, etc...
this should be changed to "Zainichi (在日, Resident Japan) usually refers to Koreans currently residing in Japan" -- Hydenobuyuki ( talk) 14:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
When I finished reading this entire dispute page, I feel that there are more pro Japanese people than pro Korean..... Especially the one with Tae Kwon Do being originated from Karate is really pushy by the pro Japanese..... I am not trying to take the Korean's side but Tae Kwon Do existed before Karate and and it was introduced to Japan by Baekjae through trade..... Also, if Japan claims Tsushima, why are they unfairly trying to claim Tokdo as well????? And I believe there should be more peaceful or neutral term used rather than "Sea of Japan".Thanks( MCASGT 01:27, 12 May 2007 (UTC))
1)The Sea name should be the Marginal Sea(neutral) 2)The Liancourt Rokcs should be called Dokdo(Koreans had longer historical eefect on these Isles) 3)Tsushima should belong to Japan(The Japanese had longer cultural influence on these Islands...) 4)Japan should sincerely apologize to Korea about their atrocities that they have commited. 5)Japan should not write inaccurate books like Far Away from the Bamboo grove since the Japanese mistreated the Koreans and the Japanese refugees were guaranteed a safe voyage back to Japan.... The authors father was also in jail by the Imperial Japanese army for stealing money..... These Japanese books are very inaccurate.... 6)Pro-Koreans should not write inaccurate informations on these pages.... 7)Both sides must not use inaccurate information without a valid evidence.... Thanks( MCASGT 21:57, 12 May 2007 (UTC))
I don't mean to interfere on the controversy here and I don't have a personal stake in this article. But I was bothered enough by a lot of the small little grammatical and spelling errors that I felt compelled to clean it up. I tried to retain as much of the original flavoring as the article had but there were some cases where I was forced to clarify as best as I could when the grammar used was mutilated to the point where it wasn't understandable. Please watch the English in the article as it's no use to have some perceived point appear in the article if it's not written well. Thanks! -- Kainee 04:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I think you're missing the biggest dispute of all: the 35-year period during which Japan annexed Korea as a colony (1910-1945). The imposition of Shinto as the state religion, the Japanese control of all Korean schools, the attempts to stamp out the use of Korean language, etc. . . . -- Uncle Ed 19:56, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Umm.. No. It is not "Current Disputes", It is "Japanese-Korean disputes". (Read the title before responding.) Second of all, pleanty of people are and will be affected by forced Shinto, annexation, illegalizing the korean language, etc. if we do not learn from out mistakes. so, yeah, it has a lot to do with contemporary society ok?
Kadzuwo: the external link you added ( Korea, the Preposterous World) is to a highly POV personal Web site maintained by Wikipedia user Nanshu. Nanshu has already published a lot of the material from that site here and has caused numerous edit disputes because of it. We don't need any more hateful material from him than he has already contributed. I have removed the link to the site. And don't tell me I'm censoring the truth or whatever: there is already too much anti-Korean nonsense on Wikipedia. -- Sewing 16:53, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, that website is the only thing "preposterous". If he wants to correct us Koreans, tell him to be my guest. But tell him to do it from a neutral point of view. Seriously, I feel so stupid for the fact that I actually wasted my precious time reading that junk.
Starting NPOV mine field. My god, aren't we (Korean & Japanese) such kids. :D FWBOarticle 00:55, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
there must be load of others. Feel free to add. FWBOarticle
Should add Zainichi issue but it is such a big topic that it might deserve separate page. FWBOarticle 00:59, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I propose that this page is split into two section one about politics the other about cluture.
Ah, the idea that there are no such things as Korean (nation, race or ethnic group or whatever) at that period and Korean penninsula is just region where thich contained different ethinic groups of Altaic origin is a view held by the people who counter claim that Japanese decended from Korean. I obviously understand that Korean would disagree with such assertion and find that to be offensive. However, as long as attribution is properly made such view should not be censored. On one side, Japanese decended from Korean, (more accurate statement probably being the tribe(s) which set up the original dynasty in a region of Japan came from Korean Penninsula). On the other side, there were no such thing as "Korean", (more accurate statement probably being variation of Altaic tribes/nations were subsequently unified to form Korean nation and ethinic group). Obviously, counter-counter argument (variation of language is in fact dialect not language) exist and then there is counter-counter-counter argument (such variation extend to Manchuria, Japan and possibly Mongolia). You might also notice that there were no such thing as Korean also mean there were no such thing as Japanese. FWBOarticle 18:46, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Takwondo originally being Korean Karate is not that cotroversial. In fact it was called as such. Until 70s, Taekwondo dojo/dojang used exactly the same forms as Shotokan Karate. Obviously, whether the current TKD being a variation of Karate or separate MA depends on POV. It's also bit funny given that Karate is actually Okinawan art not Japanese. Also Okinawan karate is the Tangsu martial art of China (admitted by the Okinawans) FWBOarticle 18:46, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Wow, I have never been so amused by a wikipedia article. I had only heard of about half of these disputes. I knew Japanese and Koreans could be petty towards each other, but christ! I wish I'd known about some of these before, I could have pissed off my korean teachers with it! hehe.
Boy, if I had to guess, I would swear the DPRK are starting to post on the Wikipedia (welcome comrades!). I am tempted to go through and clean up the POV and goofy unproven tripe on this page, but then I think this page may actually serve a purpose: gives the trolls a nice sandbox to post their rants and keep them off the Japan or Korea page.... Davejenk1ns 15:39, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Under the dispute "North Korean abductions of Japanese", the last sentence is completely incoherent. I can't tell if the meaning is that during WWII the Japanese also kidnapped North Korean citizens and this doesn't bother them so why should North Korea care about Japanese citizens, OR that during WWII other nations also kidnapped Japanese citizens but this isn't a problem because it was not North Korea that did it. In any case, this needs to be made comprehensible and NPOV, or it needs to be removed. As this is a potentially controversial topic, I'm posting this to the discussion page first. Munkymu 22:33, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Japanese Ministry of Education is now Ministry of Education and Science. I think we should rename the title to "Publications on History in Japan" or something to put the issue in broader context. The textbooks must pass a governmental inspections before they're issued to each school, but publications other than textbooks can contain anything regardless of their nature, meaning whether they're right-wing or left-wing. It's also important to clarify what whatwashings of wartime atrocities the Koreans are pointing out, like the use of the term "invasion."
The problems with the Korean publications on history should be put in the article too. There is only one history textbook in Korea, written and edited by the goverment. And due to the anti-Japanese educational policy, the "good" side of the nation/people is hardly written in any publications.
I'd also like to have non-Korean/Japanese discussing this issue. Some could provide a neutral point of view. -- Nc622 11:57, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"A prime example of this would be the introduction of Buddhism/Confucianism. This concept almost completely came to Japan by way of Korea, but Japan almost goes out her way to not focus on this fact."
Japanese textbooks state that Buddhism/Confucianism came via Korea. I don't understand why Buddhism/Confucianism is such an issue. The claim that "Japan neglects Korea to save her face" is the typical Koreans' delusion due to their insecurities. -- 203.189.128.197 19:21, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Taekwondo was originated from Takkyun Korean martial art. I think many ill-minded people who falsely believe Taekwondo was influenced by Karate are getting confused with ( Tang Soo Do).
Taekwondo is home grown Korean martial art. Japanese cannot accept the fact that Taekwondo is more popular than karate. Taekwondo is chosen has Olympic Sport.
Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do are two different martial arts.
Removed the part about Taekwondo and culture taught wrongly in Japan. This is false; they mention the Korean influence in their culture in textbooks. I think we've had enough of the falseness of the claim on Taekwondo not originating from Karate.
This claim is groundless. No documented records are found that can prove that the Japanese empire changed the name. The name Korea was used before the Japanese annexed Korea. Until the 20th century French was normally used for international conferences, in these documents Korea's written Corée because in Roman languages in general to start with C is linguistically correct. It's after Versailles Treaty when English became prevalent. So it's just a difference of whether they prefer the French way or the English way. It's your choice... It's kinda scary the whole nation believes this Japanese conspiracy theory though. Same with the name of the sea... Personally I don't care about that "sea" (it's just a sea, for your's sake), but... I'm sorry but I have to say the reasonings in these claims are extremely poor.-- Nc622 11:17, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
i agree with sea naming dispute. japan's coastline has a longer border with the sea rather than the korean peninsula, so there is no reason why it shouldnt be called 'sea of japan'. i dont understand why the koreans are trying to change the name.-- Sesloan 06:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
i dont agree with the name, sea of japan. the japanese changed it by donating money to the atlas company. the original name is east sea. thats y the koreans r tryin to change it. they must have a reason. and japan did change the name of the country. if u know, that the japan's real name is nihon. korea's: corea. but n is behind c! geez, the japanese changed their name into japan, since thats how they made it and put corea to korea. -- dl96 7:57, 29 september 2006
Umm, No. Nihon is what the japanese called themselves,(alternative to Wa) the koreans if translated correctly called it Ill Bon. The chinese in Mandarain Dilect pronounced it Jae Bun. it travels to a port where the Dutch traded Tea (or Chai) with the chinese and they called it Jae Pun. IN English, its Japan. (By the Way, I'm Korean)
The more and more I find about these "brutalities commited by Japanese army," I notice that they're all made ups by the Chinese and the Koreans... Unbelievable.
Look the Nanking Massacre, comfort women, death railway, the murder of Empress Min, Manila massacre, unit 731, unit 100, etc these are not made up.
The Nanking Massacre and comfort women are exactly the made ups. The comfort women issues are the worst though. There're no documented records or whatsoever to suggest that these "comfort women" were slaves that the military forced to be. These were prostitutes, and there're only testimonies by the women themselves, which somehow constantly change with each trial they faced. -- Nc622 09:24, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If you don't believe these crimes happened, take it up with the WWII war tribunal, in which the court stated it did happen.
I know this arguement is also coming up in Germany as well, they ask for proof of the Holocuast. Where is the documentation, where are the bodies they ask. Then they state the holocuast never happened.
But neo nazis believe the holocaust is a hoax. You just choose to ignore what you don't want to believe. Every country has done bad things. just admit it. China pollutes and bootlegs. Russia massacred millions of people. Koreans has been extremely stubborn with Japan. Korea used to eat dogs too (its not "bad" but its disgusting)In fact, i think japan has paid its due with korea. All countries have problems. don't try to battle every criticism.
The UN human rights commision believe Japan is guilty on the comfort women issue in addition to various other war crimes and have made multiple statements about this. International civic groups have stated the evidence showed Japan as being guilty. In addition the Netherlands performed a mock trial (as realistic as possbily since they do not have jurisdiction over Japan) on the comfort women and have concluded Japan was guilty. One of the government ministers of Japan Nariaki Nakayama have stated there was alot of evidence for comfort women and apologized. The women from Europe who were in the pacific and got forced to be comfort women by Japan protest every year at the Japanese embassy, on the anniversary day of Japan's defeat in WWII. I stated "this arguement was coming up in Germany" not by the historian but by nationalists, neo-nazi's, the new axis national socialist party of Japan (which is a neo-facist group in Japan). The German government has done a wonderful job of trying to reflect on their past behavior, apologized formally, didn't show an ambiguous stance on war crimes, tried to compensate financially, which is a stark contrast to what happened in the pacific.
I didn't know that the Dutch performed a mock trial. Yes, they don't have jurisdiction over Japan... I'd be surprised if they did. As I said, Nakasone confessed that the apology was political. He admitted that the governmental investigation could not find any evidences on it. You have not presented anything that I didn't know. The UN human rights commision is the very organization that first referred to comfort women as "sex slaves." There have been at least a hundred of English books that depict the story of comfort women according to this view; if you include books in all languages probably the number easily exceeds a thousand. These "nationalist" historians as you call them are very well-aware that the majority of international community including Japan are people like you who just lebel the opposite side of their opinion as revisionalist "neo-fascist group" who's just simply in denial of the history for national pride. Quite a simplistic attitude. Nevertheless, for your information, there're growing numbers of non-Japanese professionals who're starting to look into this issue.
But I really honestly wonder if you even know how this matter came up to the public in the first place. The term "comfort women" itself did not exist untill a former-Japanese soldier Seiji Yoshida published a book with a super-pretentious title My War Crimes in 1983. Before that, there had been no disputes or whatsoever about sex slaves in and outside of Japan. In the book, Yoshida confessed that he kidnapped some Korean women and forced them to be "comfort women"; which was the first time this term was used. This book was translated into Korean in 1989 and as I stated previously a Korean journalist went to the island where Yoshida's army positioned and investigated on the fact of the matter. On August 14th 1989 she published a report on a regional newspaper and denied Yoshida's testimony as a lie. Along with her report there were criticisms from the Japanese historians, and Yoshida admitted that he published the book for his financial need. I forgot his name but a professor of Souel University later performed further investigation on 40 women who claimed to be of former comfort women and he concluded that more than half of them were inventing the facts. But the Japanese major press such as Asahi, Yomiuri and Japan Times, and English press such as New York Times and Washington Post as well did not even refer to the Korean report and Yoshida's testimony that his story was invented. Other civilian testimonies and diaries of the comfort women rather suggest that they were "sold" by their own parents to a group of prostitution. These are not even talked on the newspaper because people like you just lebel these opinions as from "neo-fascist group" like you said. It's such a distortion itself, since Japan was not fascist during the war.
Don't just say "women from Europe" and be specific. There are few Dutch women who have been sueing the Japanese government. It must be such an easy and lighthearted thing for you to make a claim like: The German government has done a wonderful job of trying to reflect on their past behavior, apologized formally, didn't show an ambiguous stance on war crimes, tried to compensate financially, which is a stark contrast to what happened in the pacific. Read at least the content of San Francisco Peace Treaty before you codemn Japan. It's a typical propagandized belief of Chinese and Korean that Japan has not made apology. For Korea, Japan didn't even have to apologize or compensate for anything but she still did. The only country that Japan has not compensated is Taiwan because of political reason that the Japanese government decided to consider it as part of China. -- Nc622 08:33, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For Korea, Japan didn't even have to apologize or compensate for anything but she still did. Umm, if according to your mindset, The Germans did not have to apologized to the Jews for the Holocaust or the Amercans for the Japanese Internment camps. See, people like you say that Japan was not Fascist but the government was controlled by the special elite an the prime minister was not chosen by the people but a council made up by the very same elites. The Tenno (Japanese King) had no control, the people who were allowed to vote were given only 2 choiced of the same elite class and Japan nationalized railroads, businesses, and docks to mobilize for war. THAT IS FASCIST!!!!!!
What is the "Denno"? There is no such term or word. Why do Koreans like to be the father and the creator of Japan and Japanese history without having any proof? It is hard to understand why they forge all kinds of things.
You can also ask why Japan doesn't like to relate historical items and concepts with the rest of Asia. Eventhough they are an island, they do have neighbors. Information passed from Korea to Japan like swording making techniques, iron processing, pottery techniques, writting, also the fact that people of Baekchae Korea wrote Japans first history compilation. All, these are undeniable, but why do they perfer to use the term NE area, China, mainland, the continent, wouldn't terms like Shilla, Baekchae, Koryo, Goguryeo, peninsula be more accurate. Also, Koreans learned all these concepts from other countries as well, mainly China. But alot of what China learned was also from India, Arab and the middle east. But you don't see the Koreans writting history about iron processing and only mention the mideast and completely leave out China who passed on the info. Should Korea only mention India for Buddhism and not mention China or put it in as a small footnote or one sentence info.
The history of the two countries are intricately tied together.
http://www.uglychinese.org/japanese.htm
Go look at this Japanese website and you will see the information on the Burial tombs, and how eventhough Korea has archeologically the older burial tombs, the two countries are still argue about the origin of it. And Prince Akhito making the acknowledgement of Emperor Kammu's familial relation to King Muryeong is well documented. And alot of the information is from the WWII war tribunal. That is why former Japanese prime ministers apologized for the education policy in Korea. To educate enough for labor, but not for higher learning.
Another complicating issue is in order to truely get a good understanding of the disputes you need to be fluent in English, Korean, Japanese, and Chinese. Very few people can speak all 4 languages fluently. Also note most of the information in English comes from Japan because Japan has had the longest relationship with the west.
Also note most of the information in English comes from Japan because Japan has had the longest relationship with the west. Umm, ever hear about the silk road trade? how about the mongolian invasions? the huns? maybe Indian trade ports. All these have from 1000~500 years on Japan in terms of having contact with the West.
You need to learn all 4 languages because Japan and Korea used to write in Chinese, also Chinese references to these countries can not be ignored especially when these countries did not compile massive ancient historical information like the Chinese did. Example, the letter sent by Tokugawa to Korea is in Chinese characters about the disputed islands. Also, there are proof, evidence, documentation in Korean, Japanese and Chinese, in addition to counter arguements for many disputed items. And you need to know english cause this is an english website.
You can also ask why Japan doesn't like to relate historical items and concepts with the rest of Asia. Eventhough they are an island, they do have neighbors.
Even in this article it switches back and forth from people saying the penisula, then someone switches it to continent. Also, from the translated Japanese text books I've read, it uses terms like NE area, continent. When I studied East Asian History in School, this was brought up by the professor also. Now, why is the Japanese government making apologies for unit 731, Nanking, Comfort women if it was all made up. Where is the logic for Japan in burial tombs agruement still going on, where is their proof, why do people keep bring that up on this website and switching it without proof as being Japanese culture. Isn't it logical to assume the country with the older archealogical burial tombs and artifacts to be the founders?
English....books are translated into english. This is an english website, I was educated in the US. And yes, I believe Chinese and Koreans translate Japanese text books, isn't that why there was such an uproar when the new Japanese History book came out.
How do you know what is acceptable in Korea and what is not, do you speak the language, have you lived there for more than 5 years. With all the freedom in Japan the information about unit 731 came mostly from the US papers, only then did Japan apolozie, but didn't make all the sealed papers in Japan public...hmmm lots of freedom there right...very objective right. Not all the papers were confiscated by the US. The research information was shared with the US, the US wanted the research info for their own knowledge. But papers on weather those weapons were used, where, how may or may not be in the sealed papers in Japan. Just a side note, I think the perpetrators of crimes in history tend to want to move on and say lets separate the past actions in history from our current politics even if nothing was resolved. The victims of the crimes tend to want resolution and are much more vocal about the crime. There is always a trust issue also, if you can't trust the other country due to historical crimes, it may become a current political issue.
More rushes in conclusions, Yes we know how the matter of comfort women came up in Japan, this was also something generally known in the west and in asia before 1983 but wasn't emphasized until someone from Japan confessed to it. The Koreans also try to verify Japanese historical info because they question Japans trustworthiness. The reporter didn't completely dismiss the Japanese book, he raised valid questions which could not be answered, especially in regard to timeline. You must of read the edited version of the news research, because the edited Japanese version dismissed many testimonies of people who wanted to stay anonymous and people of questionable back ground, which meant protitute/rape victim testimonies were dismissed. Testimonies from Korean, Filopinos and Chinese were dismissed. There was another article in english (can't remember the writer) questioning the Japanese take on it cause they only left Japanese testimonies as valid. And stated that was like the criminal investigating himself.
Also, if you take any East Asian history class in the US (college level) they will translate sections and chapters of books from other countries.
Why, is the accuracy of Japan's history text books always on the US news.
I strongly agree with the user above. Although I have restored the article to become as least NPOV as possible, there are still some POV comments deeply rooted within various sub-articles. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that all of us would like this article to be well balanced between Korean and Japanese arguments, and not in favour of one side or the other. Leonhart
Some people without ID seem to be just changing articles without discussing. I agree with Tangfe. The whole article needs revision, or else needs to be erased leaving some major disputes such as the ones over the island and the textbooks. Some articles are totally nonsense and unworthy like Japanese photographs of Korea. What's this about? A big question mark in my head. -- Nc622 17:05, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The info on this page switches back and forthe almost daily. There should be discussions for each change.
>Archaeological studies show that a large influx of people from Korea immigrated to Japan along with technology, culture, and language.
Why do Koreans assert that they are the cultural and the ethical father of Japanese. Is this another Korean superstition? Due to government policy and anti-Japanese education, don't Koreans hate Japanese? Then why? A contradiction...Quite puzzling. Korean psychology must be complex. Koreans cannot live without thinking about Japan and the Japanese? | Tangfe 23:44, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The photographs are disputed between the two countries because it was one of the excuses Japan used to invade other countries in WWII. They believed the other countries were "backwards", then showed the photographs as evidence. Later people started questioning the photographs asking why historical treasures which eventually got stolen/destoryed in war were never photographed. Koreans state it was propaganda photos, Japan states it was not propaganda. That is what the current arguement is about.
Japan states it was not propaganda. Who in Japan are you talking about? And what pictures?Koreans believe they can say anything when it comes to about Japanese people. By the way, They believed the other countries were "backwards": this statement is either your imagination or what you're told from your government, very typical of Koreans.-- Nc622 11:28, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hmm... I guess it's Nc622, the guy who posted his opinionated material is the article without knowledge of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I guess that's okay, since he's a new guy, but some of his statements are questionable. For example, there's that part in which he said that the Nanjing Massacre was Chinese propoganda (or something similar at least). But it was worthy to be used as propoganda, as all wartime incidents are. Not only that, there's no denying that it was done in a purely barbaric and inhumane matter. Whether it was systematically carried out or was a result of national rivalry is a dispute left to historians, but it was, at the very least, comparable to the brutality of Attila the Hun.
In addition, although Nc622 did mention it, along with another guy, the bit about the need to speak four languages in order to fully comprehend the history of East Asia from 1850~1945 is also quite true... sure, there are translated historical records, but full access to all English, Chinese, Korean, and Japanese records is only available to a person who can speak all of the languages listed above.
Finally, the dispute over the Japanese photographs.... obviously they were used as "proof" by Korean governments over the last five decades (perhaps six), but it was true that Japanese photographers targetted the very worst of Korean society. Opium addicts, the poor, the disabled, the starving... they were all used as evidence of Japan's need to colonize and industrialize Korea and the rest of Asia. Just becuase a few memorabilia was used as propoganda doesn't mean that they have been invalidated; they're just leaving a stronger mental impact. It's better than whitewashing history altogether with nationalistic beliefs, like Japan (and to a far lesser degree, Korea and China). And finally, revising history doesn't change anything, especially not the history of the Japnese colonial period in Korea: Japan's imperialistic rule over Korea had everything to do with the cruelty and mercilessness of the worst barbarians and the savageness of hunting dogs and had nothing to do with humanity, the rights of human beings, or respect for other cultures. I hope revisionists do not deny or downplay this fact 'cause sometimes, admitting your own faults and taking responsibilty is a way to help yourself.
Although the comments above are only my opinion, anyone is welcome to criticize and rebuke them, and I will do my best to answer them in a sincere matter. Leonhart
This article is completely ridiculous. I've removed it.-- Nc622 10:27, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Book you present above from 1890's to early 1900's actually proves the point about Japan's photographs of Korea, there was no reason why pictures of the Palace/artifacts could not be taken. Also, this was written by a Japanese ally (british) who thought every one in Asia was inferior to the caucasians at that time. Yes, the british thought the Japanese were the Yellow Pearl of Asia (as long as they knew there place below the british) and believed China to be the sick man of Asia. And remember even in the 1980's when new archeological evidence was being excavated which contradicted Japan's old theories about their evolution/origin culture, many people even whites scholars resist believing the new evidence, because they had developed a loyalty to Japans version of history. Eventaully, due to the amount of evidence, books like "Paekche of Korea to the Origin of Yamato, Japan" became the gold standard in current theories.
I don't know if a current dispute should be deleted like this. The debate is still strong in Japan and in Korea. Currently two historians Mr. Kang an honorary professor at Hanajo University and Mr. Lee an honorary professor of Wako University (Both schools are in Japan) have been collecting evidence of the Joseon Dynasty photographs and technology Joseon started using from the West and how the Country was trying to modernize before Japan interferred. In addition Mr. Lee spent 10 years of his life collecting tombstones modified by the Japanese with lime powder. Mostly 500 rubbing of King Gwanggaeto's tombs. The tombstones were modified during the Japanese occupation, but Mr lee wanted to know what the original script had said. He spent 10 years flying back and forth between Japan and Korea.
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200404/200404150011.html
Under Japanese invasion, this occurs <trying to expose some "perceived" distortion of history by Korea>. What does it mean that "perceived" is in quotes? Usually something is in quotes to indicate that it is not actually so, but only allegedly so. But, here, that would mean the perceived distortion were not really perceived? That doesn't make much sense to me. Sivamo 08:13, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think that's POV. -- Nc622 13:16, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The discussion like above isn't productive. Can we keep the tone down? And sign up to get ID so that we know who is talking. -- Nc622 13:16, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I erased the latter part of Apparent mistakes section. Do that kind of slander somewhere else.-- Nc622 14:57, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Although I created that section, I erased the whole part, since I believe the section itself became meaningless. Tangfe 16:25, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Oh, I see. So you erased that entire fight with Leonhart since it seemed like your arguments were totally baseless and invalid. Obviously, that put you at a disadvantage. ' Ah-hah! Now I get it. You're running way! Best idea you had in your whole life.' Samurai91
It is hard to understand why some anti-Japanese activists attack Japan constantly. The things these anti-Japanese activits write are highly offensive. For example, they move around to brand Japan as an extremely evil country, the Japanese as a whole as racist islanders. They really demonize Japan and the Japanese. Totally intolerable. They should definitely stop this. It is only detrimental. The more these Koreans attack Japanese, the more negative their image will become within Japan and other countries. The stuff that I have pointed out in the criticism towards Korea are facts. Although criticism may not be a friendly response, I thought these anti-Japanese activists won't stop without showing any expression of anger. Korean slanders, rumours and propaganda about Japan are acceptable but any critical remarks about Korea are interpreted as "mad"? Double standard. Tangfe
To Tangfe above: It seems we have a misunderstanding, Tangfe. First, you seem to think that I'm an anti-Japanese activist. Forgive me while I titter. Anti-Japanese activist? Really. Like you, Nc622, and Nanshu aren't part of some All-Japan Brotherhood that's bent on keeping Japan's dirty, good-for-nothing image. And Koreans slandering on Wikipedia? I'm sure there are also a few Japanese editors like Nanshu and Nc622 who go around cursing Korea at every available moment. As for you, Tangfe, don't try to play the good guy. It really doesn't fit you. After all you've done as a "foreigner" (neutral, my foot), you seem to have overlooked a few points in the relationship between Korea and Japan. Plus, why did you erase our argument? I beleive it is not illegal on Wikipedia to post your opinion and critiscm on the DISCUSSION page. What, are we re-entering a period of authotarian dictatorships, this time led by Japanese Internet users? Leonhart
Calm down. You're completely paranoid out of ignorance and not actually reading any of my posts. I'm not interested in your country in any ways. That means I don't have any emotional connections to Korea; I don't specially love your country nor hate it. Maybe you should rephrase the words to "criticizing Korea" for its apparent historical/social Japan-related problems. -- Nc622 16:22, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
So, Leonhart's going paranoid, you're not interested in Korea. 'Snort.' Yeah, we just all believed you. For your information, Leonhart is not raving simply because he is a lunatic (a fact I very much doubt). It's because guys like Tangfe just walk around blindly, hitting anything that gets in the way, which is in this case, criticism about Japan. And if you don't care about Korea, what are you doing on this discussion page anyway? Doing lunch, are we? Samurai91
I don't know what your problem is. I hope you won't resort to some childish argument like "don't discuss something you don't care about." What am I doing here on this "discussion" page? Well... let's use some time to think before you go all sarcastic and post something here.-- Nc622 04:57, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If you don't have an answer, just shove off. I couldn't care less about what Nc622 has to say about his "emotions toward Korea". I might've mentioned it at one point, but I'm really critical of what my Japanese homeland has to say to other East Asian countries. In fact, all Japan does is to give generous donations overseas, take advantage of the receiving countries' gratitude, dominate their markets, and move on, while in neighboring East Asia, all it does is ignore, ignore, ignore some more, and then revise its own historical wrongs. And by the way, Nc622, I don't have any problems in my life. Maybe it's you who needs to see a psychologist.-- Samurai91
Ha ha. Real funny, Nc622. As usual, you've put your keen and penetrating (snort) mind to the task coming to the wrong conclusion. For your information, I have been reading your posts, you dimwit, and just because I don't explicitly say so in my own comments doesn't mean I'm ignoring you or anything. And by the way, saying stuff like "This is a "discussion" page; what am I doing here?" really doesn't help you, 'cause you've already violated the principle of discussion with Tangfe by agreeing to the deletion of arguments that don't fit your personal view of history. To me, you just seem like an ignorant fool who considers the rules of nettiquette beneath him. Oh, and before Nc622 (that ugly git) says anything about me ignoring his "precious" posts (again), I'll address one of his useless suspicions: why didn't I mention any specific Japanese companies? It's because the news here in Shanghai NEVER mentioned any exact companies. All they showed me were the logos of companies such as Toyota and Honda in some African country. Happy, you slimeball?
P.S.-Insulting me by saying that I don't have the mental capacity to understand plain English seems to be a comment that disses yourself, since your sentences seem more grammatically incorrect than mine.-- Samurai91
To Nc622: Do you know that a recent broadcast by a Japanese TV channel fetured a so-called "historian" saying that the word "colonization" is incorrect when applied to the annexation of Korea by Japan in 1910? Did you also see how he went on to say that "all of Korea agreed" to the subjugation of itself to Japan? I mean, what kind of shit is this? We all know that Japan forced nearly all of its treaties on Korea, including the Protectorate Treaty of 1905 and the Korea-Japan Annexation Treaty of 1910. We also know that only a small minority of Korean officials actually signed the 1910 treaty out of free will. In this sense, the annexation of Korea fits perfectly into the term of "colonization". I hope this clears up your victimized sense of Japanese history, Nc622. Samurai91
I'm starting to clean up this article. I'm planning to erase basically the entire section on the cultural disputes since most of them are worthless, except for Zainichi and Corea/Korea(I think this is quite idiotic too, but considering how big the issue became in Korea during the World Cup, I decided to leave it).-- Nc622 17:19, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Zainichi (Resident Japan) is a euphemism for Koreans residing in Japan, most of them second- or third-generation Koreans who still hold either North or South Korean passports. Although they claim that they were kidnapped to Japan to work in Japan during the WWII., it is not true. The hearing investigation to the first-generation of Zainichi, which was made by the Korean Residents Union in Japan itself in 1988, disclosed the fact that almost all of them entered to Japan illegally after the end of WWII, in order to escape the redbaiting made by the South Korean goverment, to avoid ravages of the Korean War, or to persue their economic success. Generally, Koreans have been regarded as non-credible people, because they repeated barbarous acts such as murder, gang robbery and rape especially in the period of U.S. occupation, taking advantage of the fact that Japanese constabulary force weakened. To this day, the crime rate of Koreans in Japan is very high. Many Koreans living in Japan use Japanese names to deceive Japanese. Japanese Korean communities are split between affiliation to North or South Korea. Eespecially criticism against North Koreans are increasing, since the fact has revealed that the General Association of Korean Residents in Japan, an organizing body for North Koreans in Japan, assumed an important role in the kidnapping of many innocent Japanese as an agent of the goverment of North Korea. Koreans often complain that it is discrimination against Koreans that they do not have the right to participate in Japanese elections. However, they are simply treated as foreign residents, as other foreigners are done. Although Zainichis have their national rights as Koreans in their own countries, they insist that Japanese should give them privileges also in Japan. They face some problems on rare occasions in terms of marriage, employment and naturalization, and they also claim that it is an unreasonable discrimination. They intentionally omit or forget the fact that it is due to Japanese distrust of Koreans caused by Korean's bad conducts. Koreans claims in order not to repeat the 'mistakes' of the past Japan must learn the 'correct history' and not the distorted nationalistic version. However, the 'correct history' claimed by Koreans is filled with lie and fabrication, as seen in their claim of Zainichi's origin stated above. BS.
It is used even now is leading? Huh? - furrykef ( Talk at me) 23:04, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There seem to be two "sides" currently editing two sections of this page.
Comfort women
Someone is anonymously changing well established facts on this page about the comfort women issue. (Japan is currently just about the only country in which this issue is denied in varying degrees). If someone wants to present radically different point of view, then please present it here on the talk page. I suggest using the term "Comfort women" instead of "Sex slaves", the meaning of the term is properly explained on Comfort women. The section should for the most part be a summary of that article, not a political statement. JeroenHoek 10:19, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Zainichi-Koreans
Someone is anonmyously changing this section again into this:
The kidnapping issue is real (acknowledged by North Korea and Japan) and is as such an "issue" that should be present on this page. It does however recquire a new section in my opinion, because the current wording seems insulting to the Korean population in Japan as a generalisation. If someone has some text for such a parahraph, please post it, but I suggest we don't shuffle it in with the "Zainichi Koreans" section. JeroenHoek 10:19, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Recently a number of anonymous fascists try to spread their racist "victim-bashing" propaganda which are entirely unacceptable. They are not decent discussions, but hate propaganda which must be banned in any place. A serious measure (including lawsuit) must be taken. Everton 05:38, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Yasukuni Shrine is the resting place of nearly every Japanese soldier who has died in action since the Meiji Restoration of 1868. To state that it worships Class A war criminals without mentioning the thousands of others interrred there severly undermines the neutrality of this article and betrys a lack of adequate research on the part of the author(s).
Any specific references to support such a claim? If it is unsupported, remove. Kokiri 21:23, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
The ban of Japanese cultural imports into Korea (such as TV shows, movies, etc...) is a fact. There's a couple links to references on the
Contemporary culture of South Korea page, which I don't feel like posting right here, since I'm on a slow computer and it would take a bit of time for me to dig them up. As for other 'anti-Japanese' policies enforced by the South Korean government... I haven't personally heard of any. --
Zonath 04:38, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
Are you sure about this ? I'm pretty sure I've hired a number of Japanese, Chinese, Hong Kong-ese(? or Hong Kongans ?) movies from my local video shop(obviously I live in Korea). I think many articles people find are quite old. Koreans I know are pretty open-minded about the Japanese. I mean its all history now right? We should so totally move on. The rapes, curcifixion(is that how u spell it ?), human guinea-pigging etc etc were all atrocities that always happen when theres a war or occupation. We're just lucky there was no Hitler-oshi. I'm not being a "traitor" to my country (but if you're born and brought up in a different country - I grew up in the laid-back islands of the pacific by the way- you kinda take a step back and see it from a whole new angle) or anything and to prove it I'll say that the Japanese Government of the time could have at least put some proper government or something like that in place instead of leaving a power-vacuum so that the Soviets and the Americans could fight their bloody Cold war over our land. But yea,,, some scientists believe that oneday, a long long time later, we'll all be one race. Look at America, its a true melting pot, Scottish marrying Chinese, Koreans marrying Japanese, Americans marrying Pacific Islanders then their kids marrying other ethnic people,,, except the jewish and muslims will take their time about it... So, the conclusion is that all these things are history. History should be honoured not criticised and slandered over, so people in both Korea and Japan should honour their history by having some honour and shaking hands like good men, each apologizing for their actions and move into the future with a fresh start. Otherwise the Asian continent will forever be criticised by the West. And Japan, no matter how "western" you think you are you can't escape your roots. So yeah just embrace your asian-ness and be asian-friendly, I mean Japanese and Koreans and Chinese all come from the same cavemen-type prehistoric people and seriously Westerners all seem to think we look da same anyway. My friend Lisa used to be like "You Asians all look the same!" and well the Americans made so many mistakes in the Vietnam war because they couldn't tell the North Vietnamese from the South ones apart. Sorry this turned into some azn pride with hippy thing.
anyone think a brief section on korean/chinese demand for apologies would be appropriate? i'm thinking something along the lines of 3~4 sentences describing the history of the apologies (there's already a wiki list), & why korea thinks they're inadequate, that japan is tired of repeating them, that korea thinks japan's actions undermines their sincerity. i was sorta surprised there wasn't a section, but i'm ambivalent about whether one should be created. Appleby 17:34, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
with the popularity of anti-korean comics in japan, (ny times article) http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/19/international/asia/19comics.html?ei=5094&en=9089215d5cdce1cd&hp=&ex=1132462800&adxnnl=1&partner=homepage&adxnnlx=1132960076-1bQY0w6lE9PjxaDVXYV5Hw if anyone is actually reading this, what do you think should be added to page, if anything?
I found an interesteing point of view from the first paragraphs in the article:
Does this article want to say "Japan owes what it is today to Korea, so why does Japan ignores such facts while doing harm to Korea?" I find awkwardness in the usage of "However"---in the sentence before "However" it's claimed how enthusiastically Korea helped Japan develop, and after the "However" come invasion and annexation. What's the relation between these sentences?
And there seem to be some "contributions" by Korea cited above under debate. Rice farming is harder in the northern regions, especially in prehistory time. It developed later even in the northern China, and did cultivation of rice really begin earlier in Korea than Japan? I have thought that it was brought from southern China, via Taiwan and OKinawa Islands. Similarly, shamanism, ceremonial burial and pottery techniques can be questioned. Do ancient Korean shamanism and burial tradition resemble that of Japan? In this paragraph it's stated "Historical and archeological records indicate that..." so there seems to be evidence to support this, but I don't know it. - 222.4.16.15 14:50, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Even if those cultures were introduced from China to Japan by way of the Korean peninsula, it doesn't follow that "Koreans transmitted [them] to Japan" as if Koreans could take some credit and Japan should be thankful. The cultures were most likely transmitted as the result that certain people who had them immigrated to Japan. You cannot say that those people were either Korean or Japanese because there weren't such distinctive national identities as designated by the names of modern nation states back then. They were neither Korean nor Japan, or were as much Korean as were Japanese. It's not like "Koreans" suddenly visited Japan thousands of years ago, kindly taught the Japanese of various cultures free of charge, and went home. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 09:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Stop making the descriptions of events that are different in nature "symmetric" as if they are similar. History is not symmetric.
It is as much unfair as describing Comfort Women and North Korean abductions of Japanese in a "symmetric" manner just because they were both state crimes. You ought to write about the two events differently because the volume and gravity of the two were completely different. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 08:16, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Just how on earth could you write "Although South Korean-controlled currently and for most of its history" about Dokdo here without leaning toward a biased pov? You cannot find such a statement of heavily biased Korean pov on the main article Liancourt Rocks. For it's obvious that adding such a statement to the main article would cause an enormous NPOV dispute instantaneously. I simply cannot understand how you could add such a sentence in a mere summary here, and boldly claim that it is an accurate and neutral summary of the main article.
And what are these sentences that you just added?: "It has received substantial Korean influence due to its proximity to Korea. Briefly during the Joseon Dynasty, and possibly during the Silla era, it was Korean-controlled." Do you seriously believe that adding these while including no claim from the Japanese side is a neutral description of the issue and an accurate summary of the main article Tsushima island? Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 09:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Symmetry: You made the descriptions of Dokdo and Tsushima exactly the same (except certain respective names) WORD BY WORD. There exist NO articles on Wikipedia other than yours here that describes two different events in such an absurdly "symmetric" manner because it is just impossible for two given events to happen to be so completely "symmetric" for a fact unless you add in your bias (political or otherwise).
Liancourt Rocks: Just READ the main Liancourt Rocks article. Where does it make such a blatantly biased statement as "South Korean-controlled for most of its history"? How on earth could you claim that this is a npov? Your summary of this issue here boldly claims that Koreans have owned the rocks throughout the past history and practically that therefore the Korean claim on the rocks is perfectly valid and legitimate while Japan's claim is historically unfounded and utterly bogus. "South Korea" didn't even exist prior to 1945 for god's sake.
Tsushima: You added those two sentences to the Tsushima description here AFTER the beginning part of the original "Although Japanese-controlled currently and for most of its history" was removed, to the obvious advantage of the Korean claim. The two sentences were fair and balanced only because they were accompanied by this deleted part. Your edits deliberately omit every Japanese claim, show only the Korean claims and present the issues as if the Korean side is 100% right.
The introduction: There were no "Koreans" who "transmitted to Japan many cultural and technological advances." Whoever brought them to Japan, they were neither "Korean" nor "Japanese" as I showed above. Stating that "Koreans transmitted" is not only incorrect for a fact but also politically biased as it is obviously intended to imply that although "Koreans" kindly gave the Japanese all sorts of advanced cultures, the Japanese forgot gratitude and betrayed Koreans by invading the peninsula in the modern time, creating a major cause of the current animosity between the two nations. The only known fact is that various cultures were introduced from China to Japan by way of the Korean peninsula. This fact is irrelevant to "Korean-Japanese disputes" and so needs not to be included in this article even if true. For irrelevant facts do not need to be presented on Wikipedia even if they are true. The sentence "Japanese invasions of Korea and the 1910-1945 annexation..." in contrast should stay because it is both historically correct and relevant to the article. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 23:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
This is an article that summarizes "Korean-Japanese disputes." It doesn't need to mention:
For such facts are irrelevant to this article. For example, the Japanese rule of Korea 1910-1945 could be mentioned in the introduction only because it is argued to be responsible for creating various other disputes although the fact that Japan ruled Korea 1910-1945 itself is not being disputed. (Rule #2 applies.) In contrast, the fact that various cultures were introduced from China to Japan by way of the Korean peninsula has no relevance. For it is neither a disputed fact itself nor responsible for creating another dispute. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 00:05, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
And how are they supposed to be relevant to "Korean-Japanese disputes"? Anyway sketchy descriptions from secondary sources don't merit so much reference. There isn't such a thing as "Korean genes." That's just a lay term coined for casual readers. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 00:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
The genetic research results available today only show that the Japanese and the Koreans share some genes, and possibly that they share the same ancestors. It does not substantiate such a politicized claim as that "Koreans contributed Korean genes to the ancient Japanese" because the supposed common ancestors were neither "Korean" nor "Japanese," or they were as much Korean as were Japanese. The only thing that is certain is that the Koreans and the Japanese diverged somewhere on their way from Africa (where the entire human race supposedly originated about 150,000 years ago) to East Asia. The two could have diverged tens of thousands of years ago when they were still a primitive tribe wondering around upper Eurasia. In either way, the mere fact that the modernday Koreans and the modernday Japanese (or the Yayoi) share some genes does not substantiate the claim that the Japanese descended (1) from the "Koreans," or (2) from a people who had already settled on what is known today as the Korean peninsula at the time of divergence, or (3) from some known ancient kingdoms of "Korea" such as Paekche and Goguryo. For neither the exact time nor the location of genetic divergence could be known from the currently available research results. The use of terms like "Korean genes" only shows the scientific inaccuracy of the article although it may be useful to make the article more interesting and easier to understand for common readers.
The oldest historical record available in Korea is Samguk Sagi that was written in 1145, and the Koreans today have to rely on much older Japanese records (e.g. Kojiki (712) and Nihonshoki (720)) and Chinese records to know what their ancient culture was like. The language of Goguryo, for example, is barely known today because of the extremely scarce resources. That is, they can't even tell if those allegedly "Korean" kingdoms were really Korean for sure, or if they were closer to the modern Koreans than to the modern Japanese (or the modern Chinese for that matter). If the culture of those kingdoms happened to be closer to that of the Japanese people, it's more accurate to say that the Koreans came from the Japanese and not vise versa due to their proximity to the original. That the supposed common ancestors might have been living on the peninsula back then does not guarantee that they were the most direct descendants of the modernday Koreans for merely living on the Korean peninsula does not make you a Korean ethnic.
Also, none of the sources that you cited above say that "Koreans" introduced rice farming and the rest to Japan. They only say that those cultures were introduced to, or spread to, Japan, with immigration from the Korean Peninsula. They are expressed in a passive construction with those cultures themselves as the subject. Besides almost every ancient Korean culture came from China anyway. There isn't much that Koreans could take credit for. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 01:37, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
If Korea didn't exist. Then Japan didn't exist either. Its common sense. If Korea didn't existed then Japan must be formed off the coast of Hawaii right??? HOW STUPID CAN YOU GET.
Stop rewriting the npov statement "cultural developments were transmitted from the Chinese area to the Japanese islands by way of the Korean peninsula" to your biased and inaccurate version "Koreans transmitted cultural developments to Japan". Your version is:
Besides this is an article to summarize various issues disputed by Japan and Korea, not a place to boast how kindly the Koreans enlightened the savage Japanese in old days. The entire sentence is irrelevant in the first place. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 07:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
It does not become relevant just because you say so. Explain in detail in what way it is relevant. Or I'll start adding info on how greatly the Japanese rule improved the life of Koreans during the colonial period and how much Koreans have been influenced by modern Japanese culture if they could be "relevant" if I say so: [방송 일본 TV 베끼기 “아직도 그대로네” ] (Chosun Ilbo, July 23 2002), MBC´일밤´´추격남녀´도 표절의혹 (Dailian, August 23, 2005), 김청기 감독 “표절이라니…서글프다” (September 22, 2005), [6] [7], [8], [9], [10].
I told you that your version is also unfounded/unsourced. The webpages that you cited above only say:
None of them say "Koreans transmitted..." like you did. And your version is inaccurate because there were no "Koreans" back then. Use more accurate and exact terms such as Koguryo or Paekche or Silla. Or use "Korean peninsula."
Talking about the ancient "Korean" kingdoms, Jared Diamond and Peter Bellwood argued in their article that appeared in the April 25 2003 issue of Science that "Modern Japanese is not at all like Korean" and that "Modern Korean derived from the ancient Sillan" whereas "Japanese may have evolved from another ancient Korean language, Koguryo" ( New York Times, May 6, 2003). In other words, it's more accurate to say that Koguryo was more "Japanese" than was "Korean." If Koreans today claim that Koguryo was one of their ancestors, then it's also equally valid to say that the Japanese were the ancestors of modern Koreans. For after all they are claiming that the Koreans are the ancestors of the Japanese just because the Japanese Yayoi were "Korean-like."
I don't see the big deal about Korean pottery. It's not like Japan did not have any pottery on their own. What was introduced from Korea were only some styles and technics at most:
If the introduction of Korean potary was so significant, Japanese swords that influenced Korean sword could be mentioned in the article as well:
There is no objective evidence for the claim that Kohun came from Korea. It's only a hypothesis. In fact the opposite (that Kofun was made earlier in Japan and later introduced to Korea) could be the case just as likely. See 일본식 닮은 영산강가 5~6세기 고분 (Hankyoreh, September 6 2001) for example. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 09:02, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
None of "scholarly articles" do. [11] is from New York Times, which is not an academic journal. [12] is from Discover, again a magazine for for general audience. [13] and [14] that you cited above use no such expressions as "Koreans."
"Korea" and "Japan" only refer to the geographical area and their use is not an issue here. What's controversial is the names of nations or peoples. You should use the names of kingdoms and tribes at the time such as Koguryo and Yayoi rather than those of modern nation states to be accurate, as much as you don't use names like " Germans" or " French" or " Italians" when you talk about ancient European history.
Your "general idea" is a Korean pov, often based only on a simpleton assumption that Japan is located to the east of Korea and culture and people moved from west (China) to east. Be more specific when you say that culture was transmitted from Korea to Japan unilaterally rather than "cultural exchange." The majority of advanced cultures that were introduced to Japan in the ancient times came from China and so are irrelevant to this article because Korea was only a bridge in between. Limit yourself to ones that clearly originated in Korea. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 00:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
NYT's wording is not good enough and should be changed to better and more accurate ones whenever possible. Besides the NYT article doesn't use expressions like yours.
Like I said, those "ideas" and "contributions" came from China to Japan, by way of the Korean peninsula. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 00:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Their cases had been rejected because all was settled with the 1965 treaty and the San Francisco Peace Treaty and there is no constitutional ground for them to demand compensation unless they will make a new law.
This is exactly what prompted those Korean victims to demand the South Korean government to disclose those secret documents. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 18:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Stop quoting that misleading sketchy sentence from an article on history textbook. I have already shown you the very legal ground on which those Korean women lost at Japanese courts:
This is what the legal authority of Japan decided, and their position was confirmed to be right by the secret documents of the 1965 treaty that just came out last year. That's why the Korean victims are now preparing to sue the South Korean government. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 19:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
They also filed a lawsuit in the U.S. and lost there as well.
Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 19:39, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The treaty bars any further compensation. The fact of the matter is that no one shares your interpretation or is trying to file yet another case against the Japanese government after the disclosure of those documents last year. They are preparing to sue the South Korean government instead for a good reason. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 19:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
That commission report was published 4 years earlier than the disclosure of the documents that show that the burden to compensate individual victims was transferred from the Japanese government to the South Korean government with the 1965 treaty. No one waived the liability. The South Korean government is still liable to compensate the victims. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 20:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
That Japan Times article of yours is a very sketchy one and does not describe any details of the documents. Here is the more detailed description:
The Japanese government has fulfilled the responsibility to compensate individual victims by giving 800 million dollars to the South Korean government. The South Korean government received the money on behalf of the individual victims, and promised to compensate individual victims on behalf of the Japanese government. No one's right to compensation was waived since the victims have a legitimate right to demand compensation from the South Korean government. It wouldn't be the fault of the Japanese government if those Korean victims were cheated by their own government. If they haven't received any compensation, then that's the liability of the South Korean government, not of the Japanese government. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 20:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The South Korean government agreed not to demand any further compensations because the Japanese government has already compensated individual victims with the treaty. In other words, the Japanese government fulfilled the obligation, not just "waived." You can't demand an infinite amount of compensation from Japan forever.
The liability is merely transferred to the South Korean government. Victims' right to compensation is not waived. The treaty has not deprived individuals of the right to seek any compensations. It has only changed the body from whom the victims could demand compensations. They only need to exercise the right toward the South Korean government now.
The South Korean government only paid measly 2,570 million won to victims out of 800 million dollars received from Japan. Let the South Korean government use the rest of the money to compensate comfort women before requesting more "liability."
That old UN report, published 4 years before the disclosure of those important documents, is wrong for assuming that Japan has only paid state-to-state compensation and has not compensated any individual victims. As a matter of fact the Japanese government paid 800 million dollars to the South Korean government on the assumption that the South Korean government will take care of the compensation of individual victims. That the South Korean government failed to do so is not something that could be blamed on the Japanese government. The criticism presented in the UN report has become invalid now because it is based on an assumption that has been proven wrong by the secret documents that came out last year. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 00:44, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
The UN report only says that "states cannot agree by treaty to waive the liability of another state for crimes against humanity." However, no one "waved" any liability of Japan as evidenced by the secret document that came out last year. In fact Japan rightly assumed the liability for the compensation of victims by providing $800 million dollars to Korea. If the victims have been sufficiently compensated, they don't have a right to demand further compensations any longer. The compensation liability of the perpetrator is dissolved once the compensation is paid in full.
The issue at stake here is that there are still victims of the Japanese rule who have not been compensated. Japan cannot be held liable for their predicament not because the liability of Japan was waived by the South Korean government in the treaty but because Japan has already paid a sufficient amount of compensation money to the South Korean government on the premise that the South Korean government will use it to compensate the individual victims on Japan's behalf. That the South Korean government violated this premise by paying measly 2,570 million won to the victims out of 800 million dollars while spending the rest for economic development is not the fault of the Japanese government but of the South Korean government. It must be noted that the South Korean government is the liable party for compensating those victims more fully.
No one says that Japan is not liable for any compensation of individual victims at all. Indeed Japan is liable. That's why the Japanese government paid 800 million dollars. However, you cannot claim that Japan is still liable for further compensation when the South Korean government unjustly appropriated the money that the Japanese government paid as compensation. The victims could demand further compensation from Japan only when the 800 million dollars turns out to be insufficient, i.e., only when all the money from the treaty has been used to compensate victims and still there are left victims who have not been compensated.
Agence France-Presse: Tokyo Court rejects Korean comfort woman's compensation appeal (November 30, 2000): "The Japan-Republic of Korea Basic Relations Treaty stipulates that liabilities for wartime acts of Japan and its people against Korea and its people are legally erased, the ruling added." Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 02:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
In the subsection "Sea of Japan/East Sea", there is a sentence that "Japan's influence over Korean foreign policy grew following the Treaty of Ganghwa of 1875." However, Western countries also concluded unequal treaties with Korea, not only Japan. In addition, Japan itself also had unequal treaties with Western countries but it is not said that there were influence over Japanese foreign policy. Further more, it was China who had most significant influence on Korea until 1894 and Russia until 1905. Therefore, the age should not be 1875 but 1905, I think. I need some comments from others. -- Corruptresearcher 03:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
If their wasn't Korea or Korean Peninsula. Then Japan wouldn't exist. Cannot argue with Geographical Location between two countries. Yes, Japanese as a race, culture and country exist because of Koreans and Korean peninsula
Deleting "some consider this debate to be meaningless" edit is a blatant attempt at censorship. None of the arguments in this section is attributed to particular individual. Rightly so given that it is part of public debate both in Korea and Japan. And anyone who has come across this debate know that this-debate-is-meaningless line of argument exists. This particular POV is not presented as a fact. If Appleby prefer to attribute this argument to Japanese side, feel free to do so. But please do not delete the entire sentence. I felt that attribution to Japanese side would make Korean looks more partisan (hence less NPOV) but hey, I'm not complaining as long as this view get a presentation. FWBOarticle 20:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
you've got to be kidding me with the current language on the history disputes. i guess readers will know better than to expect a real professional, encyclopedia-like article on this topic in wikipedia, but the current crazy rant is pretty embarrassing. i'll actually leave that alone as a fun example of what can go wrong. Appleby 18:43, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
If Korean and Japanese is defined in term of "nation" rather than "ethnicity", Japanese nation can claim continuous lineage from Emperor Jimmu (traditionally dated to February 11, 660 BCE according to Japanese mythology), while the current Korea "state" originate from the Treaty of San Francisco in 1952, an indirect insult about the Korea's annexation to Japan. Good Lord, please read History of Japan and History of Korea articles. Also, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is a good start as well. Deiaemeth 00:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Goguryeo and Buyeo are of the Manchurians, not of the "Koreans." -- 222.3.71.57 16:34, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Deiaemeth (or DueDiehcal) Please write the deletion reason. -- Kamosuke 04:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I've termed the excerpt for reasons of NPOV and various spelling & grammar mistakes. I don't know on what grounds you accuse me of using other Editor names. I've also deleted very poorly-termed excerpt contributed by user who uses IP [219.66.40.198]]. It read something like "Koreans are angry". Deiaemeth 02:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 06:29, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
any sources indicating the crime rate within japan is a source of dispute between korea and japan, in the same sense as the other topics here? what is korea's position in this "dispute"? does south korea support an increase in japan's crime rate? are the crimes being committed as a protest against japan's 1910 annexation of korea? Appleby 18:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
cite please? visa waiver is not a "dispute," any more than any other countless diplomatic discussions are "disputes" that belong here. if you do consider it a dispute, then the topic of the japan-korea discussion is visa waiver, with the crime rate being one of japan's internal considerations. Appleby 19:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, South Korean's criminals doesn't increase. And, it doesn't decrease. Applyby,Shall I add detailed information on the South Korean criminal more?-- Kamosuke 18:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
If Applyby is neutral, he will delete the topic against which the South Korea government is not protesting against Japanese Government. ( Tsushima/Daemado, Sea of Japan/East Sea, Korea instead of Corea) -- Kamosuke 18:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
1. shall we publish two articles in one topic?
The article is classified into "Insistence of South Korea" and "Insistence of Japan". The South Korean records the insistence of South Korea. The Japanese records the insistence of Japan. It doesn't interfere mutually in the other party's insistence. -- Kamosuke 10:16, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
2. shall we classify it? "History issue" , "Cultural problem" , "Crime problem" ...etc
South Korea is not participating in WW2. Korea is not invited to [Treaty of San Francisco]. I do not think that this title is appropriate.
1.Reason to delete Carter Eckert
2.Reason to delete insistence on Koizumi
Koizumi has repeatedly said he visits the shrine to pray for peace and honour the dead, not to glorify militarism.
3.Reason to delete "An increase of South Korean criminals in Japan" 4.Who is disputes Visa waivers?
who disputes the crime statistics? it's not a korean-japanese dispute, as i already mentioned above. saintjust above said it is part of visa waiver considerations, but that's internal japanese consideration, not afaik contested by korea, & in any case moot now. & generally, details belong in specific articles, as this is a summary list already too long.
Appleby
17:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Simply, Tsushima and Corea,Zainichi.... who disputes the crime statistics?
If you hope, I introduce "Violation of the license of South Korea" and "Unlawful business of hunters in South Korea". And, shall I introduce the problem that the Koreans hopes for a Japanese-name? It questions simply. Please answer No or Yes. (Please explain the reason if You choice "No". ) 1.A lot of South Koreans are doing the crime in Japan. 2.The Japanese is making South Korean's criminal a problem. 3.Tsushima and Corea, This is a discussion that is bigger than South Korean's crime.
(Please explain the reason if You choice "No". )
211.131.244.197 22:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC) <- -- Kamosuke 22:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
No. They are not Korean-Japanese disputes. Appleby 22:30, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Korean-Japanese disputes From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search It has been suggested that this article or section be merged with Japanese-Korean relations. (Discuss) Korea (both North and South) and Japan have had disputes on many issues over the years.
The two nations have had a complex history of cultural exchange, trade, and war which underlies relations today. In the ancient era, many cultural developments were transmitted by immigrants from Korea to Japan. [1] Later, Korea was also influenced by trade and diplomacy with Japan. The subsequent Japanese invasions of Korea (Seven-Year War, 1592-1598) and the 1910-1945 annexation, however, have scarred relations since.
Today, South Korea and Japan are major trading partners and many students, tourists, entertainers, and businesspeople travel between the two countries. In recent years, Japanese pop culture has become not only popular but also legal in South Korea; similarly (South) Korean pop culture has become popular in Japan as well. North Korea, however, has few political or economic relations with Japan.
The following unresolved issues continue to make headlines regularly, and issues arising from Japan's militant past also often involve China and other Asian countries. The respective governments are also often accused of exploiting nationalism for political purposes.
Contents [hide] 1 Korea under Japanese rule 1.1 Yasukuni Shrine 1.2 Comfort Women 1.3 History Textbooks 1.4 Compensation 1.5 Apology 2 Geographic disputes 2.1 Dokdo/Takeshima 2.2 Tsushima/Daemado 2.3 Sea of Japan/East Sea 3 Other issues 3.1 Origin of Korean and Japanese 3.2 Ban on Japanese Culture 3.3 Kidnapping of Japanese Citizens 3.4 Zainichi Koreans 3.5 Korea instead of Corea 4 See also
[edit] Korea under Japanese rule Main article: Korea under Japanese rule
North and South Korea demand sincere repentance and compensation for Japan's occupation of Korea. Beginning with an "Unequal Treaty" in 1875, Japan increased its control of Korea and then officially annexed it in 1910. The next 35 years are viewed by Koreans as a period of brutal exploitation and Japanese suppression of Korean culture. Some Japanese, however, claim that the occupation helped form the foundation for the industrialization and modernization of Korea today.
[edit] Yasukuni Shrine Main article: Yasukuni Shrine
Visits by Japanese leaders to Yasukuni Shrine, dedicated to those who fought on behalf of imperial Japan, have ignited protests in Korea, China, and other Asian countries. In 1978, 14 convicted Class-A war criminals and about 1,000 others convicted for war crimes during World War II were secretly enshrined. The shrine's publications began defending, even glorifying, Japanese war atrocities. Though Japanese emperors have not visited the shrine since, three Japanese leaders have paid their respects there. Current prime minister Junichiro Koizumi has visited five times since taking office in 2001.
[edit] Comfort Women Main article: Comfort Women
The Korean government has demanded compensation for women who were forced to work in military brothels during World War II for Japanese imperial soldiers. As the few surviving sex slaves, called "comfort women," continue to struggle for acknowledgment and apology, the Japanese court system rejected such claims on the ground of the statute of limitation. However, Japanese government arranged some monetary compensation by private funds, not through official channels.
[edit] History Textbooks Main article: Japanese history textbook controversies
The Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology (MEXT) reviews the content of school history textbooks available for selection by schools in Japan. Foreign scholars, as well as many Japanese historians, have criticized the political slant and factual errors of some textbooks that have been approved. After the revisionist Tsukurukai's textbook passed inspection in April 2001, South Korea demanded the revision of 25 parts of the textbook, to no avail. This aroused resentment among supporters of the book who felt that Korea was interfering in Japanese domestic affairs. So far, Tsukurukai's textbook has been adopted by less than 0.1% of the schools, but has become a bestseller in the general book market, and have caused other textbooks to shift to the right, for example, by omitting reference to sex slaves. [2]
In both North and South Korea, only one series of history textbooks each, which is published by the government, are allowed for use in schools. Some Japanese scholars claim that these textbooks use biased information in criticizing Japan and the Japanese occupation of Korea.
[edit] Compensation Main article: Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea
Twenty years after the end of World War II, Japan and South Korea re-established diplomatic relations by signing the Treaty on Basic Relations in 1965. In 2005, South Korea disclosed diplomatic documents that detailed the proceedings of the treaty. The documents, kept secret for 40 years, revealed that Japan provided 800 million dollars in grants and soft loans to South Korea as compensation for its 1910-45 colonial rule, and that South Korea agreed to demand no further compensations, either at the government or individual level, after the treaty. [3] It has also been revealed that the South Korean government assumed the responsibility for compensating individuals on a lump sum basis [4] while rejecting Japan's proposal for direct compensation. [5] However, the South Korean government used most of the grants for economic development and have failed to provide adequate compensation to victims, paying only 300,000 won per death, a total of 2,570 million won only to the relatives of 8,552 victims who died in forced labor. [6] [7] As the result, the Korean victims are preparing to file a compensation suit against the South Korean government as of 2005.
It should be noted that the treaty does not preclude individual suits against Japanese individuals or corporations but such suits are often constrained by the statute of limitation. The Women's International War Crimes Tribunal 2000 on Japan Military Sexual Slavery, a mock trial organised by NGOs, issued a ruling that "states cannot agree by treaty to waive the liability of another state for crimes against humanity." [8]
[edit] Apology Main article: List of war apology statements issued by Japan
Japan's prime ministers have issued official apologies several times, including Prime Minister Obuchi in the Japan-Republic of Korea Joint Declaration of 1998, and Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi in the Japan-DPRK Pyongyang Declaration of 2002. [9] Koizumi said "I once again express my feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology, and also express the feelings of mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, in the war." [10] While Koreans welcomed the earlier apologies, many now view the repeated statements as insincere, because of continuing actions of Japanese officials on the other issues listed here.
[edit] Geographic disputes [edit] Dokdo/Takeshima Main article: Liancourt Rocks
Although currently under South Korean control, these islets are claimed by Japan. Called "Dokdo" in Korean and "Takeshima" in Japanese, but also known as the Liancourt Rocks, the islets' surrounding waters have rich fishing grounds and possible reserves of natural gas.
In 1900, Korea incorporated it into Ulleung county. In January 1905, 10 months before Korea became a Japanese protectorate in November, Japan incorporated the islets under the doctrine of terra nullius. In January 1952, South Korea's Syngman Rhee line declaration included the Liancourt Rocks as Korean territory. In September 1954, Japan proposed to submit this problem to the International Court of Justice but South Korea rejected the proposal.
There is relatively less awareness of the dispute among the Japanese. North Korea supports the South Korean claim.
[edit] Tsushima/Daemado Main article: Tsushima Island
Although Japanese-controlled currently, this island is claimed to be Korean by some Koreans, although not by the South Korean government. Called "Tsushima" in Japanese and "Daemado" in Korean, it was Korean-controlled briefly during the Joseon Dynasty, and possibly during the Silla era.
In 2005, when Japan's Shimane Prefecture announced Takeshima Day claiming the Liancourt Rocks as part of its jurisdiction, Korea's Masan city council proclaimed Daemado Day and declared it Korean territory.
[edit] Sea of Japan/East Sea Main article: Sea of Japan naming dispute
Both North and South Korea insist that Japan unfairly promoted the standardization of the name "Sea of Japan" while Korea effectively lost control over its foreign policy under Japanese imperial expansion. South Korea argues that the name "East Sea", one of the various names found on ancient European maps of this sea, should be the official name instead of, or at least concurrently with, "Sea of Japan". Japan claims that most Western countries named it the "Sea of Japan" prior to 1860, before Japan's influence over Korean foreign policy grew after the outbreak of First Sino-Japanese War in 1894.
[edit] Other issues [edit] Origin of Korean and Japanese Main article: Origin of Korean and Japanese
The Korean and Japanese people share closely-linked ethnic, cultural and anthropological history. There were large influxes of immigration from Korea during Yayoi and Yamato periods of Japan, which which brought much culture and technology to Japan. [11] [12] Archeological, genetic, and linguistic evidence indicates a complex but close formative relationship, [13] but nationalists and some historians in both nations continue to dispute the direction, timing, and degree of influences.
There's somebody who is trying to deleting from this article the sentence "However, they were changed into Korean style and audience did not know they were from Japan." This person may know nothing about anime or manga. This is no POV. This fact is common sence among Korean and Japanese anime fans. For example, Yoon Son-ha, a Korean famous actress, had thought that Doraemon is a Korean character before she visited Japan (source:"Boku Doraemon" vol.9 by Shogakukan). The Ashita No Joe is called "Challenger Hurricane" in Korea and all the characters were changed to Koreans. Almost all of the anime introduced to Korea were changed to Korean style and the audience did not know they are from Japan before the removal of the ban on Japanese culture. If you can read the Korean language, read 재패니메이션.-- Michael Friedrich 13:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Isn't that the exact same thing that happens when anime gets imported overseas? Nowadays, most animes and mangas retain their Japanese names. Anywho, When Manga and anime gets imported to other countries, the character names get changed - I don't see people complaining when all the character names of Pokemon was changed in the US version, and when you see the opening credits, it looks as if it was made in the US. Also, See [27] - If you can read Korean, you'll note that the author's name hasn't been erased, and is perfectly clear to anyone who's reading the manga that Doraemon was drawn by a Japanese manga-ka. Deiaemeth 05:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
if you look at your link carefully, you'll see that it's more of an editorial from "ohmy" news, which collects "citizen volunteer" articles. it's not a serious reference source. furthermore, even in this article it says animation in general was gov't & self-regulated, & says other countries also modify foreign programs for their national audience. maybe i'm missing something, but tv stations up to the 80's were heavily gov't controlled or outright owned by the gov't, so i'm not understanding how they could have broadcast "banned" material. or, unrelated to the link you provided, are you saying individual smugglers renamed, edited, dubbed & repackaged unlicensed copies illegally in a way different from common piracy of other media? again, please provide source, thanks. Appleby 18:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
According to official Wikipedia policy, "Wikipedia articles include material on the basis of verifiability, not truth. That is, we report what other reliable sources have published, whether or not we regard the material as accurate." You have provided no reliable source for your claims. See also WP:V: "Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false. As counter-intuitive as it may seem, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." "English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly." You have not provided any reliable sources, much less any in english. please read the wikipedia policies first. thanks. Appleby 07:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
how can you say there are reliable sources, without providing them? as i explained above, the korean article says that animation in general, as children's programming, was regulated, and that other countries also modify foreign programs for domestic audience. i don't doubt that foreign ( european, u.s., & japanese) programs were modified for the local audience, as they do in japan, u.s., or most any other country. but what makes this a uniquely korean phenomenon relevant to korea-japan disputes, & what reputable source says so? Appleby 07:54, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thanks for the offer, but please read WP:V, WP:NOR, & WP:NPOV to see how to provide verifiable unbiased sources for wikipedia articles. Appleby 08:15, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
that part is obviously an editorial by the author of "ohmy" news, essentially a blog of individual volunteer "reporters." those sentences say what the author thinks should happen, not describe reality. Appleby 08:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
...etc, etc. Deiaemeth 23:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Simply, The Korean's insistence is an incorrect answer. (The Australian's insistence is correct. ) The intellect in Koreans evaluates the Japanese culture. However, the Koreans who doesn't have knowledge doesn't evaluate the Japanese culture. They believe that Koreans told the Japanese culture. (Of course, China and the Netherlands are origins in the Japanese culture. ) The South Korean believes that there is a culture that is more excellent than Japan in South Korea. (Of course, there is no superiority or inferiority in the culture. ) Therefore, the South Korean doesn't admit the Japanese culture. However, there are wonderful Game, Manga, and Anime in Japan. And, a lot of South Koreans are crazy about Game and Manga of Japan. To solve this contradiction, the South Korean devised an original method. The author of Manga and Anime of Japan was changed to South Korean's name. And, a name of a place of Japan and Japanese name was changed in the Korea style. (Of course, the author's approval is not obtained. )
Poet Han-Son-Ho in South Korea is answering in the interview of a Korean daily report. I was boasting of South Korea Manga when I was a child. It knew that the South Korea cartoon was made in Japan when I grew up. As a result, I seemed to be crazy. [ http://japanese.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2002/10/18/20021018000033.html ]
If the Koreans hopes, I introduce the page that brings PAKURI(act of stealing the Japanese culture) of South Korea.
Dear Deiaemeth. If you lived in Japan, you could see that "most Japan teachers' union are against the textbook by the Tsukurukai".
......There're too much information. See [29] and [30].
I don't get why you change "Comfort Women" to Sex Slaves.
I have found a site where it has information that can help the article or the discussion in any way. [31].
Can someone who both know what is tried to be said, and who is also able to write proper english fix the last sentence in that paragraph? "A lot of Zainichi is a leader of Boryokudan that the National Police Agency in Japan specified." ??? Thanks.
Yes, korea had been invaded by japan in the 20th century during world war 2, but it was becauses of imperialistic tactics that were imposed on japn years ago by America creating the meiji era. The Shinto is a traditional prayer to the elders and the "god" which is the Tenno himself. Much like korean confuscism, Japanese shinto is culture, not a religion. Also during the colonization of korea by japan, industry rose up and the massive indusrialaztion that took europe and America almost 200 years to finish and take korea and japan 50 years. And yes it was not intended by the japanese to industrialize kore, infact they were order by the government in Japan to keep the numbers of korean employers as minimal as possible. In the end, i say it was not the intent of the whole japanese people but the idea of individuals in politics hoping to expand an island country due to angry ex-bushido code warriors and new imperialistic ideas that was set on them too early. It was not japan, it was the times.
rescent studies believed that korea and Japane with identical writing structures, costumes in ancient burial and religions have a common source of ancestry. But a newer study believes japanese culture recieved other immigrants from Russia, the Indo-islands and parts of pascific islands, where koreans were strictly culturly tied down to china. This means that while culturly Japan and Korea is the same, it is not due to race but trade of ideas and people. Skilled workes were sent to japan by korean kings and is proven in japanese tombs where burial great burial sites were proveen to be of korean origens. Also due to the seven years war, korean artillary and smelting recieved alot from japan int heir use of guns.
"you guys?" i am korean. Also imperialistic ideas of japan had induced favorable terms like the holocaust. Since the death of koreans are put more on emphasis thane the masacre in China and other pacific ex-colonies of japan, we koreans are set to be stubborn to the majority of the world. And yes japanese text books and professors do not admit to the history of korean massacres and tortures but its not because of personal vendetta of the japanese people but the fragile political foundations that the U.S. had set when leaving upon prior to the Korean war.
Even today, in many other European languages, Korea is spelled as Corea. Furthermore, at the time in question, Japan desired to be called Nippon in English ("N" coming after both "C" and "K"). Korea counters this by saying that Japan knew that the "Western World" would not listen. So Japan ultimately thought of Korea as "Korea" with a K and not a C. In the end, no one will really know what happened.
This is SO LOL. But could anybody provide reference for this? ( Wikimachine 02:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC))
I'm really not getting why people are making such a big deal about this "K" and "C" thing ?!! In Spanish you spell it with a "C" and in English with a "K", does it really matter how its spelt ? All I know is that some foreign(can't remember if they were Arabic or European) came to Korea when Korea was still called Go-ryeo and when they couldn't pronounce it it went to Gorea and kept evolving and nowadays Korea is called Korea, Corea whatever.
Japan has recently proposed an idea to rename Liancourt Rocks as Takeishima.... They have proposed this to Oxford college World Atlas who has ironically accepted this.... So in their Atlas, it says that Liancourt Rock is Takeishima... Fails to mention that it belongs to Korea and mention its real name Dokdo..... How does Japan convince the world that everything is theirs??? I wonder greatly... Japan has also proposed the idea of "Sea of Japan"(see discussion on Sea of Japan) Usually, a sea is named after a mainland... In this case, the Korean Peninsula.... Japan has spread their Imperial ideas through this... For Korea, it has been a painful experience watching their territories and their marginal sea be renamed before their eyes.... Please add more below... By Daniel McBeth
I am strongly suggesting that you, User:NekoNekoTeacher should discuss firstly if you have an objection in the currently article based on the literature. -- Hairwizard91 16:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
So,
i) The war of Mongol and Goryeo with Japan
ii) The editing of this article
Do not be confused the current article from the wars of Mongol and Japan.-- Hairwizard91 17:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
If the conclusion is said, This is a personal attack. . Mongolia is not related to this article at all. He was not able to point out a concrete mistake though I demanded when I had to point out a concrete mistake to him. Therefore, I reject Hairwizard91s demand. Please write if there is a rebuttal about the trial of Mitubishi. -- NekoNekoTeacher 10:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the Racist Magnas such as: "Hate The Korean Wave" or "Why we should Hate South Korea" among others Showing Sterotypical And Racist Images of Koreans and Chinese should be included as a part of Korean-Japanese Disputes. just my 2 cents I plan on creating it or helping if someone else wants to take the Reins. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Easternknight ( talk • contribs) 23:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC).
Following Japan-Korea relations, I'd like to suggest moving the article to Japan-Korea disputes, following the alphabetically arranged naming scheme for titles of international relations studies. ( Wikimachine 04:05, 23 February 2007 (UTC))
It seems that a few editors wish rewriting of the intro like the following from the current version.
"Currently under South Korean control, these islets are also claimed by Japan. The islets are called "Dokdo" in Korean and "Takeshima" in Japanese. There are valuable fishing grounds around the islets and reserves of natural gas have also been found recently."
However, it already discussed about this intro issue for long time on the main article's talk page, and it has reached agreement with the current version. If you will force revert without an explanation from now on, it will be regarded as vandalism. Because you will be violate of POV fork unless you are able to be convinced of other editors in the main article.-- Watermint 14:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
The current intro seems to me surely Japanese POV. Therefore, I propose rewriting as follows;
The Japanese government protests that the name "Sea of Japan" is geographically and historically established in Europe from the late 18th century to the early 19th century and is currently used all over the world. But, both North and South Korean governments protest
insistthat Japan promoted the usage of the name " Sea of Japan" while Korea lost effective control over its foreign policy under Japanese imperial expansion. South Korea argues that the name "East Sea," which was one of the most common names found on ancient European maps of this sea, should be the official name instead of (or at least used concurrently with) "Sea of Japan."
The description which is "the same with the title of "East Sea"" should be attached the reliable citation. At first, please present us the reliable citation.-- Watermint 14:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I'm thinking that the paragraph does not need to delete cause I seem to be written based on some sources. -- Watermint 14:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
No wonder this article may have a long history of edit warring because it has controversial issues itself and has been designated as one on the watchlist by Japanese editors deeply associated with 2channel, the largest Internet forum not only in Japan but also in the world. The watch list encompasses throughout articles related to Japan and Korea and some of China. Unfortunately, many Japanese meat/sock puppets relevant the board have been deeply involved in editing those articles. Therefore, I leave a note for people to be cautious in future. You can see the whole list as clicking the collapsed box.
● refers to problematic articles by 2channel people
○ for articles with heated edit warring
I hope everything is clear soon. -- Appletrees ( talk) 14:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Japanese-Korean_disputes&diff=195226158&oldid=194097498
Since it is proved at WP:ANI that Jjok has violated several important rules in editing articles, I checked this disputed article which he edited and not surprisingly he did wonderful job like the above. Well, I saw Jjok expanded environment issues of Japan, so he likely put the almost same contents to there. I think this section be revised and discussed. Besides, Sea of Japan (East Sea) is not solely administered by Japan, but Jjok described such which is a violation on WP:NPOV.-- Appletrees ( talk) 19:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The controversy of South Korean waste dumping into Sea of Japan and Poaching and ghost-fishing in Japanese EEZs and joint fishing zones of Japanese-Korean disputes has occurred. A Korean user Appletrees insists that "The Sea of Japan is not being ruled by Japan. Only Japan is making noise to the pollution of the Sea of Japan. Therefore, this problem is not "Discussion of Japan and Korea.". And, he deleted all these parts. [33] [34] [35] However, the Japanese loves Sea of Japan. Therefore, the Japanese is worrying about the pollution of the Sea of Japan. The Japanese and the South Korean are beginning the edit war. Can anyone mediate this problem? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.168.215.11 ( talk) 07:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
These problems are admitted also even in South Korea. (Please look at the source. )Dishonor in South Korea should not be concealed. -- 61.23.15.246 ( talk) 04:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
"Zainichi (在日, Resident Japan) refers to Koreans currently residing in Japan" If you look at the "Zainichi Koreans" article is points to it clearly says that Zainichi usually refers to Koreans that permanently live in Japan. It can be used for any group that permanently live in Japan like Zainichi Chinese, etc...
this should be changed to "Zainichi (在日, Resident Japan) usually refers to Koreans currently residing in Japan" -- Hydenobuyuki ( talk) 14:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)