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Please object to what? Mr. Harada. I thought the Korea - Japan thing was concluded months ago by other people and the multiple citations and references above. If you keep going up you will see even more citation and references. Why are were changing things when other people already concluded that multiple references were more reliable than one reference. The use of the term Korean Penisula indicates no civiliation existed on the Penisula other than being a bridge which is not accurate and that the borders of China and Korea today are not what it used to be in the 1st to 6th centuries. Please read above citations by other people. Tyler111
Just in case anybody missed it (or chose to ignore it) I DID give citations above for the most recent DNA studies, pertaining to this. Along with the Yayoi migration originating in Korea, DNA studies show some significant migration originating in either South China or Southeast Asia and moving through Korea (albeit fewer than the migrations originating in Korea). HaradaSanosuke's citation somehow ignores the "moving through Korea" part. But recent DNA evidence supports the view that some significant migration originated in China. Please review these citations again....
-- Endroit 16:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
You still need to explain the fact that Southeast Asia didn't have the technology we are talking about that was transferred from Korea to Japan. Even if pre-historically their is a theoretical genetic link, you need to look at the technology that was around in these cultures. Northern China sends technology to Korea then it ends up in Japan.
So does that mean all this happened over a short peroid of time or was it a slow process where migrating people moved from South China with rice cultivation to North China and stopped developed and mixed with people there for a new culture over 100s of years, then moved again to Korea stopped, mixed with people there to developed another culture over 100s of years then finally moved to Japan. Or was it a process in which these migrating people had an ultimate goal of heading to Japan using China and Korea as nothing more than a bridge to Japan. Lets not confuse rice farming with bronze and iron use. These are 2 different technologies. We know Northern China introduced lots of technology to Korea then Korea finally took it to Japan. But were these rice farmers a group of migrating people who had an ultimate goal of heading to Japan. Or did they do it slowly mixing with Chinese and Koreans along the way to Japan over time. The current article states "from Korea and possibly China", cause both Koreans and possibly migrating Chinese from genetic theory were traveling to Japan. How else would you like to word the article?
I believe the Mongolia-Korea connection is much older and way before Genghis Khan. Korea, Mongolia and Manchuria are closely related going back to 7000 BC. Looking at the types of food these cultures ate the similar recreational and other aspects of their culture. It is also believed that Koreans and Mongolians descented from the same area in Lake Baikal.
So the Koreans are some mix of Mongolian, Manchurian, South Chinese and Chinese. And Koreans are the closest related asian group to the Japanese per DNA evidence (even more than Chinese, South Chinese or Mongolian/Manchurian), more than any other asian group even dating back to Yayoi migration. I wonder how we should interepret this data in the Japan sections regarding ancient Japanese history.
Yes, the Koreans are related to the Manchurians. The Manchurians, Mongolians and the Koreans were suppose to be from all from Lake Baikal. If the Koreans are closest to the Manchurian that doesn't suprise anyone. Just like the Japanese are closest to the Koreans among all other Asian groups. I was talking about who the Japanese were closest to not who the Koreans were closest to. Just because the Japanese were derived from Korean gene pool does not translate to Koreans being closest to them. So there is no suprise about the Manchu-Korean connection. But since we know that the Japanese are the closest to Koreans per DNA data, even dating back to the Yayoi period how should be interpret this in the Japanese section of ancient Japanese history.
Please provide sources for Japanese bias in Japan for omitting Korea. Do you have the names of certain schools with curriculums that perpetuate that bias? I will immediately contact the department heads if this accusation is true. I don't disagree with you entirely, but to state in academic CIRCLES, do you mean students or the curriculum, or the culture? I acknowledge there is bias against Korea by academic enthusiasts in Japan but academic CIRCLES is a stretch unless we are willing to rid the jingoistic urge and acknowledge too the American bias against asians within academic CIRCLES here in the U.S. Or maybe Asian bias here in the U.S. For example, 1871 massacre of Chinese in California by Caucasians. About maybe 100 died, but this isn't mentioned within history books as a massacre regardless of the fact that only 5 died in the Boston Massacre which is found in almost all textbooks pertaining to the period of the American Revolution. Is this the kind of academic CIRCLE you are talking about? PLease specify.Another one might be the lack of information in academic textbooks stating that asian immigration was severaly limited or disallowed until 1965 while white European immigration went unrestrained. In a society where the majority rules, how can Asian-Americans get past this handicapp or political repression? This isn't mentioned in academic textbooks, does that mean there is American bias against Asians here in the United States? Sir Edgar, as I have reminded you I am a constituent of that academic community so please use facts and not conjectures or popular opinions or myths. I am very aware of text and books published by well know acadmic CIRCLE people, lol,so either provide evidence ot back your credibility or pease be careful where you venture. I though about critiquing your article but I dont have the time, I am hopin this second summer session to maybe look at it so that my critiques may contribute in good spirit.
Sincerely, 66.32.126.12 07:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)Collective Conscious ganbate kudosai Lo siento Amyangnigaseo
Winners in what? Japan won WWII? Or winners in the Imjin War. Yes, it is Koreans fault for being ignorant and stupid to get annexed in 1910. But that doesn't mean the winners write history. Do you mean rewrite "Dokdo is Japanese territory" in the Annals of Joseon?
No. There are many sources from the Joseon Dynasty or Unified Silla where they state Dokdo is Korean territory, even Japanese sources. In 1785, Hayashi Shihei, a scholar of Japan produced a map called "Map of Three Adjoining Countries" namely, China, Korea, and Japan. Hayashi color coded his map. Green for Japan and yellow for Korea. In it, it clearly states Dokdo and Ulleungdo are Korean territory and they are marked yellow. -From the Dokdo Research and Preservation Association & Dokdo Institute. Good friend100 00:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Bronze and iron appear to have been introduced simultaneously into Yayoi Japan. Iron was mainly used for agricultural and other tools, whereas ritual and ceremonial artifacts were mainly made of bronze. Some casting of bronze and iron began in Japan by about 100 BCE, but the raw materials for both metals were introduced from Korea and China. Han-dynasty (206 BCE–220 CE) bronze mirrors were the most important prestige items imported from China.
After about 100 B.C., separate parts of cemeteries were set aside for the graves of what was evidently an emerging elite class, marked by luxury goods imported from China, such as beautiful jade objects and bronze mirrors.The Genetic Origins of the Japanese. The culture identified with the Japanese was not brought to the islands of Japan until about 300 B.C. It was brought by a people called the Yayoi from the Korean peninsula.
Much remains unknown about religion in Japan during the Paleolithic and Neolithic ages. It is unlikely, however, that the religion of these ages has any direct connection with Shinto. Yayoi culture, which originated in the northern area of the island of Kyushu in about the 3rd or 2nd century BC, is directly related to later Japanese culture and hence to Shinto. Among the primary Yayoi religious phenomena were agricultural rites and shamanism.
These colonies served as a base for a strong influx of Chinese culture into Korea, whence, in turn, it spread to Japan. The fact that Yayoi culture had iron implements from the outset, and bronze implements somewhat later, probably indicates borrowings from Han culture. Since iron rusts easily, comparatively few objects have been found, but they seem to have been widespread at the time. These include axes, knives, sickles and hoes, arrowheads, and swords. The bronze objects are also varied, including halberds, swords, spears, taku (bell-shaped devotional objects from China), and mirrors. The halberds, swords, and spears seem not to have been used in Japan for the practical purposes for which they were evolved in China but rather to have been prized as precious objects.
A major, long-established East Asian route of trade and influence ran from northern China down the Korean peninsula and across the Korea Strait to Japan. Traveling along this route, Mahayana Buddhism was introduced into Japan from Korea in the sixth century (traditionally, in either 538 or 552), as part of a diplomatic mission that included gifts such as an image of Shakyamuni Buddha and several volumes of Buddhist texts. As in Korea, the religion had a lasting effect on the native culture; today, Buddhism is the dominant religion in Japan.
Kanji, one of the three scripts used in the Japanese language, are Chinese characters, which were first introduced to Japan in the 5th century via Korea.
Kofun period Under the Soga a new wave of cultural influence hit Japan in the 6th century AD. The kofun burial mounds from that time suddenly began being filled with weapons - not just mirrors and jewels. This indicates that a militarized aristocracy had come into the ascendant. At this time Korea was at its cultural peak despite - or thanks to - being split into three feuding kingdoms. The kingdom facing Japan, Paekche, formed a strategic alliance with Japan. As part of the deal it made some revolutionary inputs into Japanese history, namely: a stream of various craftsmen, among them metal workers who introduced more sophisticated armor and weapons Buddhist treasures a scholar who taught writing and Confucian thought. With the political state of things in Korea, Japan had gained control of some territory. However late in the same century, with the breakdown of the alliance, a huge number of Koreans who had been living on Japanese territory migrated to Japan.
Should japan be added as a superpower?-- Blog Mav Rick 17:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
In 1941, Japan attacked the United States naval base in Pearl Harbor and declared war on the Allies, bringing the United States into the war. After the attack on Pearl Harbor Japan invaded and occupied British, American and Dutch Southeast Asian colonies that now make up a number of present day countries like Malaysia, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines .
The Korean often criticizes a Japanese bias. However, Korean's bias is stronger....
I am getting the impression that the Japanese are total ingrates. Please prove me wrong by changing your attitude on Korean contributions to Japanese civilization. Baekje played a key role in Japan's development. If not for Baekje, Japan would likely remain a backwater in Asia for many more centuries and become probably something of a mix of Mongolian and Southeast Asian cultures. --Sir Edgar 00:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I cannot agree to this Korean's insistence at all.
Your logic is in error. Even if what you say is true and Baekje's cultural level was lower than that of China, Baekje's cultural level was far higher than that of Japan. Japan did and can study in Baekje for this reason.
Well, Baekje might have had some sort of family tie or kindred tie to Japan cause so many of Japans elite were of Baekje origin or descent. For example Emperor Kammu. Japan's interference in Baekje was that the Baekje King was calling on his subjects in Japan to help in battle.
Please read all the archived material about Korean influence on Japan
Please read all the archived material about Korean influence on Japan.
It has not proven his insistence at all though I saw the source that the Korean introduces.
Please state what was wrong with the PBS, British, American and Korean sources. Why do you selectively pick the Chinese ones as being proven but reject the Korean ones, when an article states from Korea and China.
The user that there is a rebuttal in my judgment must prove the hypothesis of Edger. "If not for Baekje, Japan would likely remain a backwater in Asia for many more centuries and become probably something of a mix of Mongolian and Southeast Asian cultures. "
Am I ingrates? -- HaradaSanosuke 16:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
The fact that the Baekje kingdom retreated to Japan is true, during the Three Kingdom period. When Goguryeo was attacking the other two kingdoms Silla and Baekje, the Baekje court fleed to Japan. Goguryeo eventually unifed the entire Korean peninsula.
The descendents of the Baekje kingdom arrived in Japan and began influencing the Japanese culturally. Japan at the time was not one country and was divided into states. Also, it is true that Japan's cultural level was significantly lower than China or Korea's. It is not wrong to say that the Baekje descendents taught the Japanese and helped it develop into a strong country.
It is also true that Korea highly influenced Japan because Chinese culture went to Japan as well and Korea was a gateway for Japan. Zen Buddhism developed in Japan when Korea introduced Buddhism to Japan. Hiragana developed from Chinese charecters that were introduced to Japan as well.
If it was not for Baekje, as someone has already mentioned, Japan would have developed culturally and technologically much slower than Korea or China.
I'm pretty sure several years ago a Japanese descendent of the Japanese royal family announced that his ancestors were from Baekje and Korean. I don't think Japan was surprised because they already knew it all along.
Japanese people know that their culture was highly influenced by Korea but don't like showing it. Good friend100 01:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Buddism introduced by Baekje, Korea
Japan was declared to be a nation equal with China. "日出處天子致書日沒處天子無恙云云"
Didn't Japan declare itself to be equal to China. I can declare myself to be emperor of China if I wanted.
...Is there an added event?-- HaradaSanosuke 17:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think the introduction of writing should be considered important.
I think that the history that is written in the introduction like two paragraphs really should be in the history section of the article. It does summarize the "history" real well so that's why it should be in "history" section. It doesn't summarize the whole article in the introduction Does anyone agree? 168.253.19.124 23:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Beging history is 8c.And the relation Bekje's scholors and beging of writing is not proved. Mythologia 17:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but this is getting pointless. This isn't 2channel's encyclopedia. This is Wikipedia. Editors don't have to follow rules made up on the spot by Objectman and Kamosuke. Instead, we follow the guidelines of what Wikipedia is, like citing verifiable information from credible English sources (which both users hardly do). It's that simple and I know Kamosuke has been told this repeatedly for several months in English and Japanese.
And if there is a reasonable argument that Baekje's value to Japan was negligble I would still disagree because of the amount and number of citations I have provided where the mainstream scholarly consensus suggests otherwise. Tortfeasor 18:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Sir Edgar and I asked Harada on his talk page (in both English and Japanese) to stop this behavior. After replying to me that he would, he promptly wrote the above series of posts. So all I can say is: please do not feed the troll. - Sekicho 19:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
These sources and citations were introduced earlier in these discussions by other people like Tortfeasor, they seem to always get deleted or archived, then some one else keeps asking for proof of Korean influence on Japan or importance of Baekje. People keep deleting sections that mention Korea in the article. I believe the introduction of writing and Buddhism by Baekje were important to Japan. Maybe we should not archive or delete these references. If we do need to archive we should re-copy these citations, so that we are not constantly having to fend off individuals that want to delete any mention of Korea in the Japan article.
But Baekje has alot to due with early writing in Japan. And the writings that were present in Japan prior to 8th Century are from Baekje or some other foreign source. Whether the 2nd Century Chinese characters were of Koguryeo, Baekje or some other origin, early writing in Japan was definately from a foreign source prior to 8th Century. Because the writing in 4th thru 7th is definately Baekje in origin that is referred.
That's exactly what people are talking about, so if the ruins in Japan have a foreign character to it, it needs to be mentioned. The way we note that the Yayoi were from Korea and China, we need to note if the Chinese characters found in 2nd Century Japan were from Baekje or Korguryeo or some other foreign source. If the character mention horses riders or some other aspect that didn't exist in Japan at that time, this needs to be mentioned. We can't just say this site is about Japan and state that what ever is found in the 2nd century are from the Sun gods and just ignore the foreign source.
What that particular paragraph is saying is that Japan and Japanese people back then (4-6th cent) were being taught for the first time on a massive scale in the 4th, 5th and 6th century how to write in Chinese characters by people of Baekje. Then it isn't until the 8th century when you see definate Japanese written work in Chinese characters. All other Chinese character found in Japan prior to the 8th century were of foreign origin. The significance of Baekje in the 4th-6th cent. was that they taught the Japanese how to write in Chinese characters. If a Japanese person saw some Koguryeo person or Baekje person or some other person in the 2nd Century writing in Chinese characters, they would have just seen pretty pictures written by foreignors that have no meaning to them. But in the 4th thru 6th or 7th Century, the concept of how to write was being taught directly to the Japanese person. For this reason that paragraph must stay.
Even Japanese themselves admit that it wasn't until the 8th cent. when they start writing so where else do you think writing prior to 8th cent. came from. Also, the importance of the 4th thru 6th cent teaching of how to write is because of its relatively massive scale. If a few migrating Koreans or Chinese teach one or two Japanese how to write in the 2nd Cent. It wouldn't have much of an impact until it is done on a massive level involving the aristocrats of that time who can then pass on that concept to their subjects and followers.
What ever imported Chinese characters or horse shaped artifacts or other foreign products that are found in Japan in the 2nd cent. would have no meaning to the Japanese in the 2nd century and so is not as important even though it could be significant in terms of historical ramifications. When this system of writing was being taught to them on a massive scale during the 4th thru 6th cent. is important because it lead to the massive writing by Japanese themselves in the 8th cent.
No, it is based on the references and research done by other people. please read all the citations above in archived sections there are more than 30 references and articles other people have brought about this discussion regarding Baekje's influence on Japan.
But it appears that no one knows who wrote the 2nd century writing in Japan other than knowing it is most likely of foreign origin. You must see the significance of the buddhist schools started and run by people of Baekje in Japan in terms of proliferation of reading and writing.
But that is why it took many centuries. They needed a fundamental level of literacy so it took so many centuries to get to that point 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th centuries. I agree infants can not study higher education, so it took so many centuries.
Why do you ignore the citations above. There are plenty of evidence. Every one seems to agree that writing in Japan prior to 8th Century was of foreign origin. Even Japanese historians point this out. And they know that as buddhist teachings and schools were set up by Baekje, it had a massive impact on the proliferation of reading and writing. And if you look at the DNA data and other data above everyone came to the consensus that the Yayoi people were from Korea and in theory possible from China (Yangtze River). Are you not reading to information above. Everyone agrees that Yayoi are definately from Korea, but there are some theories about China.
If your not willing to accept all the references and data and archeological citations above and in the archive section which is agreed upon by most international historians, all we can do is tell you to read more multiple references. Because these references are from multiple regions, PBS, Britian, America, Korea and Japan. You still need to mention them in the Japan article with the citation and let the reader decide for themselves if they agree with the dozens of citations or not. We can't just delete the whole sentence cause you don't agree with the dozens of references. Let the readers decide for themselves. Or if you want re-word the paragraph after you read all the references. Maybe you can find a better way to summarize the references.
Are you not reading the references, why do you keep saying no evidence their are over 30 citations and references above about Baekje's relation to Japan in Japans early history. You agree their was a flow of scholars from Baekje to Japan. It doesn't matter what the reason is as long as you acknowledge the flow of information from Baekje to Japan. Now I think we have an understanding and can work with each other to build a more accurate article.
Remember your version of the relation between Japan and Baekje is also a theory. There is another theory that the Yamato are of Baekje origin and the alliance was more of brother nations versus two foreign nations. The theory about Yamato being a expedition force from Baekje is just as accepted as the Japanese exchange of royalty for military. Also, if the Yamato are of Baekje origin you can see why Baekje would send scholars to their brothers in Kyushu. The fact that many of the elite and royal family in Japan have Korean ancestors can also explain their relation. The reason why Japans emperor stated he knows about his ancestorial ties to Korea also adds to this theory. The fact that when one of the imperial tombs were dug up and Korean artifacts started to come out of them, that is when Japan decided that these tombs are sacred and should not be dug up, tells alot to the international community. They wonder why Japan dug up one tomb then decide to stop. Anyway, even you admit Baekje sent "precious human resouce such as scholars and royal families to Japan" so you can see the impact they will have on Japans ability to read and write after that exchange.
Well, we seemed to agree that Japan was introduced to many new technology by Baekje, at least we can work with that. What ever the reasons for the transfer of technology we seem to agree that their was a transfer. And you agree that more sophisticated military technology and armor was transferred from Baekje in addition to many other new technology. These technology transfers are significant to Japan so the information about Baekje in the Japan article needs to stay.
Here are the criteria:
A featured article has the following attributes.
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I'd like to see Japan get nominated and approved. The previous FA nomination comments are not very useful, so I'd like to discuss here exactly how closely this article matchesd the attributes above. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon jo e 03:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Why not look at the edit history? One can see that you kept reverting, despite edits back to the original by me and other users. At 17:52 on May 17 2006, for example, you stated: "Sir Edgar and others, please respond specifically to MY issues in the discussion, if you revert my wording. Others are welcome to correct my grammar/English usage w/o discussion." You were engaging in a one-man battle at the time, as I recall.-- Sir Edgar 08:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
The Japan article is not stable yet and there are disputes on history and whether they are right or wrong. Good friend100 15:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Doubts
Which source do you have doubts about. There are over 30 sources cited above in the archive section. There are a dozen re-copied from archived sources also. The sources are from various nations, PBS, British, American, Korean, Japanese, etc.
Even if part of the culture is given by other countries, you need to mention the nation that gave Japan the culture. That is why China is mention more frequently on information about Buddism in Korea than India is mentioned. Also, part of what was transmitted to Japan by Korea was of Baekje origin, that is why Japan is not identical, but similar to Chinese culture.
Most historians agree Korea transmitted burial graves to Japan, weather it was of Koguryeo or Baekje source?
This article was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because The article fails to meet Criterion 5: "It is stable, i.e., it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of ongoing edit wars." The ongoing edit war is now a month old. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fg2 ( talk • contribs) . (Apologies for forgetting to sign! Fg2 22:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC))
Why do you believe it is Koreans only who are referencing and citing documented studies. The references provided are from various sources and wikipedians involved are not only Koreans but other ethnic backgrounds. They are only referencing and citing information, why does this bother the user above.
The article is talking about beginning of Japanese being taught how to write themselves on a mass level and not have foreign writing around that was imported. The 2nd Cent. writing is from a foreign source. Even in Korea when they have contact with the Zhou Dynasty in the 7th thru 4th Century BC (BC not AD) you can find things in Korea with Chinese characters and culture. Also in 3rd and 2nd Cent. BC you can find that more foreign technology comes in to Korea (Iron use). Then in the 108 BC with the Chinese invasion hugh aspects of Chinese culture are imported to Korea. The important times on these imports are when the Koreans themselves use this technology and when that particular technology changes that region or country. So if you find something in Japan in the 2nd Cent. from a foreign source, it is just that. An imported item from a foreign source. The importance of Baekje was that they taught Japan how to write on a massive scale that changed things versus writing something and taking with you as you migrate to Japan.
If Koreans came and vandalized the Japan article, then thats their fault and shame. But that doesn't mean Japan has a clean record. About a month ago, Japanese users were caught using sock puppet accounts when voting and also vandalized the entire talk page of the Dokdo article by using sock puppets to overload the talk page with written sentences about Korea's fault, Japan is great, Koreans are trying to steal Takeshima, Koreans have fake information, etc etc. Good friend100 01:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I believe some of the vandals were Koreans. Koreans are the most susceptible since this is an article about Japan and the Korea-Japan relationship is doing pretty bad. There is an edit war and the article is not stable enough.
"Korean's surprise attack"? you sound like as if Korea has attacked Japan with tomohawk missiles. I'm not trying to say Japan is horrible. To me, it seems like the Japanese editors think the Koreans are all at fault, while their own fellow Japanese users messed up the Dokdo article because they got angry at changing to article name to "Dokdo".
I read that several users are trying to boost the Japan article into a featured article. In my opinion, articles like Japan, Korea, Dokdo, Tsushima Basin etc etc are going to have a hard time getting to that position. For example, take a look at the Tsushima Basin or Dokdo article. Editors are disputed about several things that they cannot decide on. Scan all the featured articles or previous featured articles. They are all articles that have no disputes and are stable (i.e a bicyle or an iPod). Good friend100 15:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
A few months ago people kept deleting information about Korea and their interaction with ancient Japan. So various people started asking why they were deleting this info. The users that were deleting the info stated they wanted more references. So a few other users came back with multiple references over 30 and re-entered the information about Yayoi and Baekje and other cultural influences. Then someone modified the multiple references to only show up as one footnote saying it was taking up space and looked ridiculous to have a sentence with footnotes going out the 7 or 8. Then the references brought to the discussion sections were archived. Now we are having the same arguement we had months ago and someone keeps deleting referenced and cited material from the article about Baekje and some one completely deleted the original paragraphs about Chinese and Korean culture. I know other users went thru this arguement a month ago, but I think it is time for this question again. Why are referenced material being deleted without any logical explaination.
Why doesn't anybody have anything to say? Good friend100 20:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I really wish the people who are here for purely political reasons (on both sides of the issue) would leave so that the article can be edited properly. Mythologia, you are a good example (though there is fault on the other side as well). Presumably your motivation in editing this articles is to protect the image of Japan in the eyes of the world from what you (incorrectly) believe is the negative connotation of early Korean influence on Japanese culture. What is ironic is that your actions symbolically do hundreds of times more damage to the image of Japan than any substantive damage that may be done by the edits of others. As someone who has lived here on and off for the past 20 years and who has a great fondness for Japan, I can say that people like you are a clearly a minority. But you make it very difficult for me to convince others that this is the case. You are hurting your own cause and you don't even realize it.日本語でもいいから、何度も削除している段落について具体的に何の異議があるか教えてもらえますか?- Jefu 16:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Make the history section as broad and vague as possible. I think that's the best solution here. We cannot possibly address all the particulars, all the probabilities and all the unanswered questions in one article without making some POV judgments. If the only problem is that everything is being attributed to Baekje, then we can reword that sentence (or make a broader statement about the exchanges with Baekje) and move the particulars to a separate article, where they can be described as accurately and neutrally as possible. - Sekicho 10:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The gaining of writing and Buddhism is very important to the history of Japan. The problem with this passage is that it makes it sound like Baekje invented all these wonderful things while Japan sat in the dark and chewed cud, and then Baekje gave them to Japan out of the graciousness of good Koreans. In reality, Baekje was merely conveying Chinese knowledge, and the gifts were a thank-you because Japan had given Baekje military back-up and kept them alive. I tried to reword this to make it less clouded by nationalism. Ashibaka tock 15:49, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Jefu: When you are requesting a translation in Japanese please say what you are doing in English so that it doesn't look like you two are having some sort of covert communication. Ashibaka tock 16:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, both the Cambridge History and Sansom demonstrate a direct connection between the Silla war and the rise of Buddhism. The presence of Baekje immigrants practicing Buddhism had zero effect on Japanese culture. Ashibaka tock 17:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
First read what Jefu has written. Its pretty hard for me to digest if I was in a certain position.
Chill out, I get the message after 3 cut and paste messages. Good friend100 21:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Late Tokugawa shogunate is currently being considered for deletion because of possible copyvio. Can anyone either revert this article to an earlier non-problematical version, or start a new good stub? If you do either of these, please leave a note in the article's Talk page. Thanks. -- 201.78.233.162 23:50, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
or, how about the wording of these:
Appleby 17:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Prior to that, by 663, many people of Baekje had immigrated to Japan, bringing technologies and culture with them Does this mean the Baekje people went to Japan before the battle? Then the "thank you" gift makes no sense at all. The introduction of the article is too misleading. It sounds as if Korea and Japan were good friends back then.
Anyways, the Silla and Tang Dynast won the battle. The Baekje court sailed to Japan and taught the Japanese. I'm not trying to say Japan was a primitive place with half naked people running around a fire. Both China and Korea were both culturally advanced than Japan, but Japan was still an organized country.
The reason why I keep writing that the Baekje court taught the Japanese, is because, like Jefu said, some users believe Korea did not have a large influence on Japan, and to my opinion, their attitude toward the Korean influence is not very respected. The point is, Korea influenced Japan. Good friend100 18:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Did you read the article on Gwanggaeto Stele? It was altered with lime powder by the Japanese historian who had possession of it. All historians do not follow those altered portions and wonder why Japan still uses it as a reference.
And Wiki is not the advertising display, but a dictionary, as you know I thought Wikipedia was an encyclopedia.
"Japan aided Korean nations military support" Maybe for the Baekgang battle. If Japan was so friendly with Korea what about Japanese pirates during Unified Silla or Chosun?
The Gwanggaeto Stele has nothing to do with this. The stele was erected by Goguryeo which claimed land in Manchuria and China when Goguryeo was at its most powerful stage. The Japanese aided Korean forces, thats something I didn't expect to come out of Wikipedia so clearly.
The Japanese, during the annexation period of Korea in 1910, rewrote some of the writings on the stele, making it look as if Japan did nothing, or helped Korea. What the Japanese did can be still found on the stele. How does the stele have to do with "Japan's aiding of Korean nations"
We are talking about Baekje's influence on Japan, not a stele that was vandalized. Good friend100 21:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
"Are you accusing me of not being able to prove that the Japanese wanted to do anything with the Baekje people?" Yes. Because I have cited sources, and you have not. That is what I mean by "burden of proof".
"Try learning Korean, and see the striking similiarities in the pronounciation of Kanji and the word structure." Huh?! Are you saying that Korean immigrants came over during the formative period of the Japanese language? The passage I'm discussing is roughly 6th century CE!
"Some users are denying that Korea influenced Japan" -- Those are the users who were removing your paragraph from the article entirely. I have opted to fix it up instead so that it isn't biased towards Korean nationalism (which I think you'll agree doesn't belong in a summary article about Japan). My version is backed up by two major works of Japanese history, so I believe it is safe to say that it is more accurate than this stuff about Baekje immigrants showing up beforehand. Ashibaka tock 23:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I just can't stand some people when they pronounce Korean words incorrectly.
Below shows how to pronounce some Korean words (in a better way).
Baekje: Baek-jeh
"Baehk", not "Baik"
Goguryeo: Goh-goo-ryo
Silla: Shil-la
not "Cilla"
Koryeo: Goh-ryo
Sorry, if you still have a hard time with this stuff, I'm not a linguist. Good friend100 18:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
But Ming China came to Korea's aid and after several defeats and following Hideyoshi's death, Japanese troops were quickly withdrawn in 1598.
I can't believe that I have to repeat this again. Peoples!!! Japan did not retreat from Korea during the Imjin War because Hideyoshi died! Some users keep writing like this and it seems like an excuse to cover defeat at the hands of the Chinese and Korean forces.
The Japanese lost the Imjin War because firstly, China's manpower and military was a match for Japan, secondly, the Koreans were ready for the second invasion, and thirdly, Admiral Yi's naval victories in 1597 and 1598 prevented Japanese supplies and reinforcements from reaching Japanese troops in the north.
Hideyoshi's death did have a profound effect on the Japanese commanders, and they hurried to keep it a secret so Japanese morale wouldn't drop. The Japanese commanders were already planning to retreat from Korea, and Japanese armies began moving south before Hideyoshi died. Good friend100 18:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The recent edits and changes to the content of the Japan article is making its quality drop quickly. The introduction is too vaguely written and not helpful at all. More importantly, there are sentences that run unnecessarily. You should not write sentences like that for a concise article that is supposed to focus on only the most important facts. For example, you don't say: "During the morning school break, Jane gave Mary the first piece of peppermint candy she ever had, but Mary already had gotten a lot of other types of candy that she bought at the store earlier in the day. The latter part is secondary and almost irrelevant. Don't write like that, especially for political purposes. This article is supposed to get to the point, not explain side notes.-- Sir Edgar 08:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
On the contrary the quality is getting significantly better and the content is more neutral now. This article has been at the mercy of the group of Korean pov-pushing nationalists way too long. This is an article about Japan after all, not a vanity gallery for the Koreans to brag about their proud achievements in ancient history and whine how the Japanese are ignorant ingrates to the great Koreans. -- 61.10.12.190 16:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Please object to what? Mr. Harada. I thought the Korea - Japan thing was concluded months ago by other people and the multiple citations and references above. If you keep going up you will see even more citation and references. Why are were changing things when other people already concluded that multiple references were more reliable than one reference. The use of the term Korean Penisula indicates no civiliation existed on the Penisula other than being a bridge which is not accurate and that the borders of China and Korea today are not what it used to be in the 1st to 6th centuries. Please read above citations by other people. Tyler111
Just in case anybody missed it (or chose to ignore it) I DID give citations above for the most recent DNA studies, pertaining to this. Along with the Yayoi migration originating in Korea, DNA studies show some significant migration originating in either South China or Southeast Asia and moving through Korea (albeit fewer than the migrations originating in Korea). HaradaSanosuke's citation somehow ignores the "moving through Korea" part. But recent DNA evidence supports the view that some significant migration originated in China. Please review these citations again....
-- Endroit 16:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
You still need to explain the fact that Southeast Asia didn't have the technology we are talking about that was transferred from Korea to Japan. Even if pre-historically their is a theoretical genetic link, you need to look at the technology that was around in these cultures. Northern China sends technology to Korea then it ends up in Japan.
So does that mean all this happened over a short peroid of time or was it a slow process where migrating people moved from South China with rice cultivation to North China and stopped developed and mixed with people there for a new culture over 100s of years, then moved again to Korea stopped, mixed with people there to developed another culture over 100s of years then finally moved to Japan. Or was it a process in which these migrating people had an ultimate goal of heading to Japan using China and Korea as nothing more than a bridge to Japan. Lets not confuse rice farming with bronze and iron use. These are 2 different technologies. We know Northern China introduced lots of technology to Korea then Korea finally took it to Japan. But were these rice farmers a group of migrating people who had an ultimate goal of heading to Japan. Or did they do it slowly mixing with Chinese and Koreans along the way to Japan over time. The current article states "from Korea and possibly China", cause both Koreans and possibly migrating Chinese from genetic theory were traveling to Japan. How else would you like to word the article?
I believe the Mongolia-Korea connection is much older and way before Genghis Khan. Korea, Mongolia and Manchuria are closely related going back to 7000 BC. Looking at the types of food these cultures ate the similar recreational and other aspects of their culture. It is also believed that Koreans and Mongolians descented from the same area in Lake Baikal.
So the Koreans are some mix of Mongolian, Manchurian, South Chinese and Chinese. And Koreans are the closest related asian group to the Japanese per DNA evidence (even more than Chinese, South Chinese or Mongolian/Manchurian), more than any other asian group even dating back to Yayoi migration. I wonder how we should interepret this data in the Japan sections regarding ancient Japanese history.
Yes, the Koreans are related to the Manchurians. The Manchurians, Mongolians and the Koreans were suppose to be from all from Lake Baikal. If the Koreans are closest to the Manchurian that doesn't suprise anyone. Just like the Japanese are closest to the Koreans among all other Asian groups. I was talking about who the Japanese were closest to not who the Koreans were closest to. Just because the Japanese were derived from Korean gene pool does not translate to Koreans being closest to them. So there is no suprise about the Manchu-Korean connection. But since we know that the Japanese are the closest to Koreans per DNA data, even dating back to the Yayoi period how should be interpret this in the Japanese section of ancient Japanese history.
Please provide sources for Japanese bias in Japan for omitting Korea. Do you have the names of certain schools with curriculums that perpetuate that bias? I will immediately contact the department heads if this accusation is true. I don't disagree with you entirely, but to state in academic CIRCLES, do you mean students or the curriculum, or the culture? I acknowledge there is bias against Korea by academic enthusiasts in Japan but academic CIRCLES is a stretch unless we are willing to rid the jingoistic urge and acknowledge too the American bias against asians within academic CIRCLES here in the U.S. Or maybe Asian bias here in the U.S. For example, 1871 massacre of Chinese in California by Caucasians. About maybe 100 died, but this isn't mentioned within history books as a massacre regardless of the fact that only 5 died in the Boston Massacre which is found in almost all textbooks pertaining to the period of the American Revolution. Is this the kind of academic CIRCLE you are talking about? PLease specify.Another one might be the lack of information in academic textbooks stating that asian immigration was severaly limited or disallowed until 1965 while white European immigration went unrestrained. In a society where the majority rules, how can Asian-Americans get past this handicapp or political repression? This isn't mentioned in academic textbooks, does that mean there is American bias against Asians here in the United States? Sir Edgar, as I have reminded you I am a constituent of that academic community so please use facts and not conjectures or popular opinions or myths. I am very aware of text and books published by well know acadmic CIRCLE people, lol,so either provide evidence ot back your credibility or pease be careful where you venture. I though about critiquing your article but I dont have the time, I am hopin this second summer session to maybe look at it so that my critiques may contribute in good spirit.
Sincerely, 66.32.126.12 07:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)Collective Conscious ganbate kudosai Lo siento Amyangnigaseo
Winners in what? Japan won WWII? Or winners in the Imjin War. Yes, it is Koreans fault for being ignorant and stupid to get annexed in 1910. But that doesn't mean the winners write history. Do you mean rewrite "Dokdo is Japanese territory" in the Annals of Joseon?
No. There are many sources from the Joseon Dynasty or Unified Silla where they state Dokdo is Korean territory, even Japanese sources. In 1785, Hayashi Shihei, a scholar of Japan produced a map called "Map of Three Adjoining Countries" namely, China, Korea, and Japan. Hayashi color coded his map. Green for Japan and yellow for Korea. In it, it clearly states Dokdo and Ulleungdo are Korean territory and they are marked yellow. -From the Dokdo Research and Preservation Association & Dokdo Institute. Good friend100 00:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Bronze and iron appear to have been introduced simultaneously into Yayoi Japan. Iron was mainly used for agricultural and other tools, whereas ritual and ceremonial artifacts were mainly made of bronze. Some casting of bronze and iron began in Japan by about 100 BCE, but the raw materials for both metals were introduced from Korea and China. Han-dynasty (206 BCE–220 CE) bronze mirrors were the most important prestige items imported from China.
After about 100 B.C., separate parts of cemeteries were set aside for the graves of what was evidently an emerging elite class, marked by luxury goods imported from China, such as beautiful jade objects and bronze mirrors.The Genetic Origins of the Japanese. The culture identified with the Japanese was not brought to the islands of Japan until about 300 B.C. It was brought by a people called the Yayoi from the Korean peninsula.
Much remains unknown about religion in Japan during the Paleolithic and Neolithic ages. It is unlikely, however, that the religion of these ages has any direct connection with Shinto. Yayoi culture, which originated in the northern area of the island of Kyushu in about the 3rd or 2nd century BC, is directly related to later Japanese culture and hence to Shinto. Among the primary Yayoi religious phenomena were agricultural rites and shamanism.
These colonies served as a base for a strong influx of Chinese culture into Korea, whence, in turn, it spread to Japan. The fact that Yayoi culture had iron implements from the outset, and bronze implements somewhat later, probably indicates borrowings from Han culture. Since iron rusts easily, comparatively few objects have been found, but they seem to have been widespread at the time. These include axes, knives, sickles and hoes, arrowheads, and swords. The bronze objects are also varied, including halberds, swords, spears, taku (bell-shaped devotional objects from China), and mirrors. The halberds, swords, and spears seem not to have been used in Japan for the practical purposes for which they were evolved in China but rather to have been prized as precious objects.
A major, long-established East Asian route of trade and influence ran from northern China down the Korean peninsula and across the Korea Strait to Japan. Traveling along this route, Mahayana Buddhism was introduced into Japan from Korea in the sixth century (traditionally, in either 538 or 552), as part of a diplomatic mission that included gifts such as an image of Shakyamuni Buddha and several volumes of Buddhist texts. As in Korea, the religion had a lasting effect on the native culture; today, Buddhism is the dominant religion in Japan.
Kanji, one of the three scripts used in the Japanese language, are Chinese characters, which were first introduced to Japan in the 5th century via Korea.
Kofun period Under the Soga a new wave of cultural influence hit Japan in the 6th century AD. The kofun burial mounds from that time suddenly began being filled with weapons - not just mirrors and jewels. This indicates that a militarized aristocracy had come into the ascendant. At this time Korea was at its cultural peak despite - or thanks to - being split into three feuding kingdoms. The kingdom facing Japan, Paekche, formed a strategic alliance with Japan. As part of the deal it made some revolutionary inputs into Japanese history, namely: a stream of various craftsmen, among them metal workers who introduced more sophisticated armor and weapons Buddhist treasures a scholar who taught writing and Confucian thought. With the political state of things in Korea, Japan had gained control of some territory. However late in the same century, with the breakdown of the alliance, a huge number of Koreans who had been living on Japanese territory migrated to Japan.
Should japan be added as a superpower?-- Blog Mav Rick 17:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
In 1941, Japan attacked the United States naval base in Pearl Harbor and declared war on the Allies, bringing the United States into the war. After the attack on Pearl Harbor Japan invaded and occupied British, American and Dutch Southeast Asian colonies that now make up a number of present day countries like Malaysia, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines .
The Korean often criticizes a Japanese bias. However, Korean's bias is stronger....
I am getting the impression that the Japanese are total ingrates. Please prove me wrong by changing your attitude on Korean contributions to Japanese civilization. Baekje played a key role in Japan's development. If not for Baekje, Japan would likely remain a backwater in Asia for many more centuries and become probably something of a mix of Mongolian and Southeast Asian cultures. --Sir Edgar 00:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I cannot agree to this Korean's insistence at all.
Your logic is in error. Even if what you say is true and Baekje's cultural level was lower than that of China, Baekje's cultural level was far higher than that of Japan. Japan did and can study in Baekje for this reason.
Well, Baekje might have had some sort of family tie or kindred tie to Japan cause so many of Japans elite were of Baekje origin or descent. For example Emperor Kammu. Japan's interference in Baekje was that the Baekje King was calling on his subjects in Japan to help in battle.
Please read all the archived material about Korean influence on Japan
Please read all the archived material about Korean influence on Japan.
It has not proven his insistence at all though I saw the source that the Korean introduces.
Please state what was wrong with the PBS, British, American and Korean sources. Why do you selectively pick the Chinese ones as being proven but reject the Korean ones, when an article states from Korea and China.
The user that there is a rebuttal in my judgment must prove the hypothesis of Edger. "If not for Baekje, Japan would likely remain a backwater in Asia for many more centuries and become probably something of a mix of Mongolian and Southeast Asian cultures. "
Am I ingrates? -- HaradaSanosuke 16:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
The fact that the Baekje kingdom retreated to Japan is true, during the Three Kingdom period. When Goguryeo was attacking the other two kingdoms Silla and Baekje, the Baekje court fleed to Japan. Goguryeo eventually unifed the entire Korean peninsula.
The descendents of the Baekje kingdom arrived in Japan and began influencing the Japanese culturally. Japan at the time was not one country and was divided into states. Also, it is true that Japan's cultural level was significantly lower than China or Korea's. It is not wrong to say that the Baekje descendents taught the Japanese and helped it develop into a strong country.
It is also true that Korea highly influenced Japan because Chinese culture went to Japan as well and Korea was a gateway for Japan. Zen Buddhism developed in Japan when Korea introduced Buddhism to Japan. Hiragana developed from Chinese charecters that were introduced to Japan as well.
If it was not for Baekje, as someone has already mentioned, Japan would have developed culturally and technologically much slower than Korea or China.
I'm pretty sure several years ago a Japanese descendent of the Japanese royal family announced that his ancestors were from Baekje and Korean. I don't think Japan was surprised because they already knew it all along.
Japanese people know that their culture was highly influenced by Korea but don't like showing it. Good friend100 01:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Buddism introduced by Baekje, Korea
Japan was declared to be a nation equal with China. "日出處天子致書日沒處天子無恙云云"
Didn't Japan declare itself to be equal to China. I can declare myself to be emperor of China if I wanted.
...Is there an added event?-- HaradaSanosuke 17:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think the introduction of writing should be considered important.
I think that the history that is written in the introduction like two paragraphs really should be in the history section of the article. It does summarize the "history" real well so that's why it should be in "history" section. It doesn't summarize the whole article in the introduction Does anyone agree? 168.253.19.124 23:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Beging history is 8c.And the relation Bekje's scholors and beging of writing is not proved. Mythologia 17:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but this is getting pointless. This isn't 2channel's encyclopedia. This is Wikipedia. Editors don't have to follow rules made up on the spot by Objectman and Kamosuke. Instead, we follow the guidelines of what Wikipedia is, like citing verifiable information from credible English sources (which both users hardly do). It's that simple and I know Kamosuke has been told this repeatedly for several months in English and Japanese.
And if there is a reasonable argument that Baekje's value to Japan was negligble I would still disagree because of the amount and number of citations I have provided where the mainstream scholarly consensus suggests otherwise. Tortfeasor 18:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Sir Edgar and I asked Harada on his talk page (in both English and Japanese) to stop this behavior. After replying to me that he would, he promptly wrote the above series of posts. So all I can say is: please do not feed the troll. - Sekicho 19:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
These sources and citations were introduced earlier in these discussions by other people like Tortfeasor, they seem to always get deleted or archived, then some one else keeps asking for proof of Korean influence on Japan or importance of Baekje. People keep deleting sections that mention Korea in the article. I believe the introduction of writing and Buddhism by Baekje were important to Japan. Maybe we should not archive or delete these references. If we do need to archive we should re-copy these citations, so that we are not constantly having to fend off individuals that want to delete any mention of Korea in the Japan article.
But Baekje has alot to due with early writing in Japan. And the writings that were present in Japan prior to 8th Century are from Baekje or some other foreign source. Whether the 2nd Century Chinese characters were of Koguryeo, Baekje or some other origin, early writing in Japan was definately from a foreign source prior to 8th Century. Because the writing in 4th thru 7th is definately Baekje in origin that is referred.
That's exactly what people are talking about, so if the ruins in Japan have a foreign character to it, it needs to be mentioned. The way we note that the Yayoi were from Korea and China, we need to note if the Chinese characters found in 2nd Century Japan were from Baekje or Korguryeo or some other foreign source. If the character mention horses riders or some other aspect that didn't exist in Japan at that time, this needs to be mentioned. We can't just say this site is about Japan and state that what ever is found in the 2nd century are from the Sun gods and just ignore the foreign source.
What that particular paragraph is saying is that Japan and Japanese people back then (4-6th cent) were being taught for the first time on a massive scale in the 4th, 5th and 6th century how to write in Chinese characters by people of Baekje. Then it isn't until the 8th century when you see definate Japanese written work in Chinese characters. All other Chinese character found in Japan prior to the 8th century were of foreign origin. The significance of Baekje in the 4th-6th cent. was that they taught the Japanese how to write in Chinese characters. If a Japanese person saw some Koguryeo person or Baekje person or some other person in the 2nd Century writing in Chinese characters, they would have just seen pretty pictures written by foreignors that have no meaning to them. But in the 4th thru 6th or 7th Century, the concept of how to write was being taught directly to the Japanese person. For this reason that paragraph must stay.
Even Japanese themselves admit that it wasn't until the 8th cent. when they start writing so where else do you think writing prior to 8th cent. came from. Also, the importance of the 4th thru 6th cent teaching of how to write is because of its relatively massive scale. If a few migrating Koreans or Chinese teach one or two Japanese how to write in the 2nd Cent. It wouldn't have much of an impact until it is done on a massive level involving the aristocrats of that time who can then pass on that concept to their subjects and followers.
What ever imported Chinese characters or horse shaped artifacts or other foreign products that are found in Japan in the 2nd cent. would have no meaning to the Japanese in the 2nd century and so is not as important even though it could be significant in terms of historical ramifications. When this system of writing was being taught to them on a massive scale during the 4th thru 6th cent. is important because it lead to the massive writing by Japanese themselves in the 8th cent.
No, it is based on the references and research done by other people. please read all the citations above in archived sections there are more than 30 references and articles other people have brought about this discussion regarding Baekje's influence on Japan.
But it appears that no one knows who wrote the 2nd century writing in Japan other than knowing it is most likely of foreign origin. You must see the significance of the buddhist schools started and run by people of Baekje in Japan in terms of proliferation of reading and writing.
But that is why it took many centuries. They needed a fundamental level of literacy so it took so many centuries to get to that point 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th centuries. I agree infants can not study higher education, so it took so many centuries.
Why do you ignore the citations above. There are plenty of evidence. Every one seems to agree that writing in Japan prior to 8th Century was of foreign origin. Even Japanese historians point this out. And they know that as buddhist teachings and schools were set up by Baekje, it had a massive impact on the proliferation of reading and writing. And if you look at the DNA data and other data above everyone came to the consensus that the Yayoi people were from Korea and in theory possible from China (Yangtze River). Are you not reading to information above. Everyone agrees that Yayoi are definately from Korea, but there are some theories about China.
If your not willing to accept all the references and data and archeological citations above and in the archive section which is agreed upon by most international historians, all we can do is tell you to read more multiple references. Because these references are from multiple regions, PBS, Britian, America, Korea and Japan. You still need to mention them in the Japan article with the citation and let the reader decide for themselves if they agree with the dozens of citations or not. We can't just delete the whole sentence cause you don't agree with the dozens of references. Let the readers decide for themselves. Or if you want re-word the paragraph after you read all the references. Maybe you can find a better way to summarize the references.
Are you not reading the references, why do you keep saying no evidence their are over 30 citations and references above about Baekje's relation to Japan in Japans early history. You agree their was a flow of scholars from Baekje to Japan. It doesn't matter what the reason is as long as you acknowledge the flow of information from Baekje to Japan. Now I think we have an understanding and can work with each other to build a more accurate article.
Remember your version of the relation between Japan and Baekje is also a theory. There is another theory that the Yamato are of Baekje origin and the alliance was more of brother nations versus two foreign nations. The theory about Yamato being a expedition force from Baekje is just as accepted as the Japanese exchange of royalty for military. Also, if the Yamato are of Baekje origin you can see why Baekje would send scholars to their brothers in Kyushu. The fact that many of the elite and royal family in Japan have Korean ancestors can also explain their relation. The reason why Japans emperor stated he knows about his ancestorial ties to Korea also adds to this theory. The fact that when one of the imperial tombs were dug up and Korean artifacts started to come out of them, that is when Japan decided that these tombs are sacred and should not be dug up, tells alot to the international community. They wonder why Japan dug up one tomb then decide to stop. Anyway, even you admit Baekje sent "precious human resouce such as scholars and royal families to Japan" so you can see the impact they will have on Japans ability to read and write after that exchange.
Well, we seemed to agree that Japan was introduced to many new technology by Baekje, at least we can work with that. What ever the reasons for the transfer of technology we seem to agree that their was a transfer. And you agree that more sophisticated military technology and armor was transferred from Baekje in addition to many other new technology. These technology transfers are significant to Japan so the information about Baekje in the Japan article needs to stay.
Here are the criteria:
A featured article has the following attributes.
|
I'd like to see Japan get nominated and approved. The previous FA nomination comments are not very useful, so I'd like to discuss here exactly how closely this article matchesd the attributes above. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon jo e 03:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Why not look at the edit history? One can see that you kept reverting, despite edits back to the original by me and other users. At 17:52 on May 17 2006, for example, you stated: "Sir Edgar and others, please respond specifically to MY issues in the discussion, if you revert my wording. Others are welcome to correct my grammar/English usage w/o discussion." You were engaging in a one-man battle at the time, as I recall.-- Sir Edgar 08:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
The Japan article is not stable yet and there are disputes on history and whether they are right or wrong. Good friend100 15:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Doubts
Which source do you have doubts about. There are over 30 sources cited above in the archive section. There are a dozen re-copied from archived sources also. The sources are from various nations, PBS, British, American, Korean, Japanese, etc.
Even if part of the culture is given by other countries, you need to mention the nation that gave Japan the culture. That is why China is mention more frequently on information about Buddism in Korea than India is mentioned. Also, part of what was transmitted to Japan by Korea was of Baekje origin, that is why Japan is not identical, but similar to Chinese culture.
Most historians agree Korea transmitted burial graves to Japan, weather it was of Koguryeo or Baekje source?
This article was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because The article fails to meet Criterion 5: "It is stable, i.e., it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of ongoing edit wars." The ongoing edit war is now a month old. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fg2 ( talk • contribs) . (Apologies for forgetting to sign! Fg2 22:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC))
Why do you believe it is Koreans only who are referencing and citing documented studies. The references provided are from various sources and wikipedians involved are not only Koreans but other ethnic backgrounds. They are only referencing and citing information, why does this bother the user above.
The article is talking about beginning of Japanese being taught how to write themselves on a mass level and not have foreign writing around that was imported. The 2nd Cent. writing is from a foreign source. Even in Korea when they have contact with the Zhou Dynasty in the 7th thru 4th Century BC (BC not AD) you can find things in Korea with Chinese characters and culture. Also in 3rd and 2nd Cent. BC you can find that more foreign technology comes in to Korea (Iron use). Then in the 108 BC with the Chinese invasion hugh aspects of Chinese culture are imported to Korea. The important times on these imports are when the Koreans themselves use this technology and when that particular technology changes that region or country. So if you find something in Japan in the 2nd Cent. from a foreign source, it is just that. An imported item from a foreign source. The importance of Baekje was that they taught Japan how to write on a massive scale that changed things versus writing something and taking with you as you migrate to Japan.
If Koreans came and vandalized the Japan article, then thats their fault and shame. But that doesn't mean Japan has a clean record. About a month ago, Japanese users were caught using sock puppet accounts when voting and also vandalized the entire talk page of the Dokdo article by using sock puppets to overload the talk page with written sentences about Korea's fault, Japan is great, Koreans are trying to steal Takeshima, Koreans have fake information, etc etc. Good friend100 01:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I believe some of the vandals were Koreans. Koreans are the most susceptible since this is an article about Japan and the Korea-Japan relationship is doing pretty bad. There is an edit war and the article is not stable enough.
"Korean's surprise attack"? you sound like as if Korea has attacked Japan with tomohawk missiles. I'm not trying to say Japan is horrible. To me, it seems like the Japanese editors think the Koreans are all at fault, while their own fellow Japanese users messed up the Dokdo article because they got angry at changing to article name to "Dokdo".
I read that several users are trying to boost the Japan article into a featured article. In my opinion, articles like Japan, Korea, Dokdo, Tsushima Basin etc etc are going to have a hard time getting to that position. For example, take a look at the Tsushima Basin or Dokdo article. Editors are disputed about several things that they cannot decide on. Scan all the featured articles or previous featured articles. They are all articles that have no disputes and are stable (i.e a bicyle or an iPod). Good friend100 15:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
A few months ago people kept deleting information about Korea and their interaction with ancient Japan. So various people started asking why they were deleting this info. The users that were deleting the info stated they wanted more references. So a few other users came back with multiple references over 30 and re-entered the information about Yayoi and Baekje and other cultural influences. Then someone modified the multiple references to only show up as one footnote saying it was taking up space and looked ridiculous to have a sentence with footnotes going out the 7 or 8. Then the references brought to the discussion sections were archived. Now we are having the same arguement we had months ago and someone keeps deleting referenced and cited material from the article about Baekje and some one completely deleted the original paragraphs about Chinese and Korean culture. I know other users went thru this arguement a month ago, but I think it is time for this question again. Why are referenced material being deleted without any logical explaination.
Why doesn't anybody have anything to say? Good friend100 20:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I really wish the people who are here for purely political reasons (on both sides of the issue) would leave so that the article can be edited properly. Mythologia, you are a good example (though there is fault on the other side as well). Presumably your motivation in editing this articles is to protect the image of Japan in the eyes of the world from what you (incorrectly) believe is the negative connotation of early Korean influence on Japanese culture. What is ironic is that your actions symbolically do hundreds of times more damage to the image of Japan than any substantive damage that may be done by the edits of others. As someone who has lived here on and off for the past 20 years and who has a great fondness for Japan, I can say that people like you are a clearly a minority. But you make it very difficult for me to convince others that this is the case. You are hurting your own cause and you don't even realize it.日本語でもいいから、何度も削除している段落について具体的に何の異議があるか教えてもらえますか?- Jefu 16:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Make the history section as broad and vague as possible. I think that's the best solution here. We cannot possibly address all the particulars, all the probabilities and all the unanswered questions in one article without making some POV judgments. If the only problem is that everything is being attributed to Baekje, then we can reword that sentence (or make a broader statement about the exchanges with Baekje) and move the particulars to a separate article, where they can be described as accurately and neutrally as possible. - Sekicho 10:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The gaining of writing and Buddhism is very important to the history of Japan. The problem with this passage is that it makes it sound like Baekje invented all these wonderful things while Japan sat in the dark and chewed cud, and then Baekje gave them to Japan out of the graciousness of good Koreans. In reality, Baekje was merely conveying Chinese knowledge, and the gifts were a thank-you because Japan had given Baekje military back-up and kept them alive. I tried to reword this to make it less clouded by nationalism. Ashibaka tock 15:49, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Jefu: When you are requesting a translation in Japanese please say what you are doing in English so that it doesn't look like you two are having some sort of covert communication. Ashibaka tock 16:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, both the Cambridge History and Sansom demonstrate a direct connection between the Silla war and the rise of Buddhism. The presence of Baekje immigrants practicing Buddhism had zero effect on Japanese culture. Ashibaka tock 17:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
First read what Jefu has written. Its pretty hard for me to digest if I was in a certain position.
Chill out, I get the message after 3 cut and paste messages. Good friend100 21:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Late Tokugawa shogunate is currently being considered for deletion because of possible copyvio. Can anyone either revert this article to an earlier non-problematical version, or start a new good stub? If you do either of these, please leave a note in the article's Talk page. Thanks. -- 201.78.233.162 23:50, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
or, how about the wording of these:
Appleby 17:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Prior to that, by 663, many people of Baekje had immigrated to Japan, bringing technologies and culture with them Does this mean the Baekje people went to Japan before the battle? Then the "thank you" gift makes no sense at all. The introduction of the article is too misleading. It sounds as if Korea and Japan were good friends back then.
Anyways, the Silla and Tang Dynast won the battle. The Baekje court sailed to Japan and taught the Japanese. I'm not trying to say Japan was a primitive place with half naked people running around a fire. Both China and Korea were both culturally advanced than Japan, but Japan was still an organized country.
The reason why I keep writing that the Baekje court taught the Japanese, is because, like Jefu said, some users believe Korea did not have a large influence on Japan, and to my opinion, their attitude toward the Korean influence is not very respected. The point is, Korea influenced Japan. Good friend100 18:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Did you read the article on Gwanggaeto Stele? It was altered with lime powder by the Japanese historian who had possession of it. All historians do not follow those altered portions and wonder why Japan still uses it as a reference.
And Wiki is not the advertising display, but a dictionary, as you know I thought Wikipedia was an encyclopedia.
"Japan aided Korean nations military support" Maybe for the Baekgang battle. If Japan was so friendly with Korea what about Japanese pirates during Unified Silla or Chosun?
The Gwanggaeto Stele has nothing to do with this. The stele was erected by Goguryeo which claimed land in Manchuria and China when Goguryeo was at its most powerful stage. The Japanese aided Korean forces, thats something I didn't expect to come out of Wikipedia so clearly.
The Japanese, during the annexation period of Korea in 1910, rewrote some of the writings on the stele, making it look as if Japan did nothing, or helped Korea. What the Japanese did can be still found on the stele. How does the stele have to do with "Japan's aiding of Korean nations"
We are talking about Baekje's influence on Japan, not a stele that was vandalized. Good friend100 21:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
"Are you accusing me of not being able to prove that the Japanese wanted to do anything with the Baekje people?" Yes. Because I have cited sources, and you have not. That is what I mean by "burden of proof".
"Try learning Korean, and see the striking similiarities in the pronounciation of Kanji and the word structure." Huh?! Are you saying that Korean immigrants came over during the formative period of the Japanese language? The passage I'm discussing is roughly 6th century CE!
"Some users are denying that Korea influenced Japan" -- Those are the users who were removing your paragraph from the article entirely. I have opted to fix it up instead so that it isn't biased towards Korean nationalism (which I think you'll agree doesn't belong in a summary article about Japan). My version is backed up by two major works of Japanese history, so I believe it is safe to say that it is more accurate than this stuff about Baekje immigrants showing up beforehand. Ashibaka tock 23:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I just can't stand some people when they pronounce Korean words incorrectly.
Below shows how to pronounce some Korean words (in a better way).
Baekje: Baek-jeh
"Baehk", not "Baik"
Goguryeo: Goh-goo-ryo
Silla: Shil-la
not "Cilla"
Koryeo: Goh-ryo
Sorry, if you still have a hard time with this stuff, I'm not a linguist. Good friend100 18:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
But Ming China came to Korea's aid and after several defeats and following Hideyoshi's death, Japanese troops were quickly withdrawn in 1598.
I can't believe that I have to repeat this again. Peoples!!! Japan did not retreat from Korea during the Imjin War because Hideyoshi died! Some users keep writing like this and it seems like an excuse to cover defeat at the hands of the Chinese and Korean forces.
The Japanese lost the Imjin War because firstly, China's manpower and military was a match for Japan, secondly, the Koreans were ready for the second invasion, and thirdly, Admiral Yi's naval victories in 1597 and 1598 prevented Japanese supplies and reinforcements from reaching Japanese troops in the north.
Hideyoshi's death did have a profound effect on the Japanese commanders, and they hurried to keep it a secret so Japanese morale wouldn't drop. The Japanese commanders were already planning to retreat from Korea, and Japanese armies began moving south before Hideyoshi died. Good friend100 18:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The recent edits and changes to the content of the Japan article is making its quality drop quickly. The introduction is too vaguely written and not helpful at all. More importantly, there are sentences that run unnecessarily. You should not write sentences like that for a concise article that is supposed to focus on only the most important facts. For example, you don't say: "During the morning school break, Jane gave Mary the first piece of peppermint candy she ever had, but Mary already had gotten a lot of other types of candy that she bought at the store earlier in the day. The latter part is secondary and almost irrelevant. Don't write like that, especially for political purposes. This article is supposed to get to the point, not explain side notes.-- Sir Edgar 08:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
On the contrary the quality is getting significantly better and the content is more neutral now. This article has been at the mercy of the group of Korean pov-pushing nationalists way too long. This is an article about Japan after all, not a vanity gallery for the Koreans to brag about their proud achievements in ancient history and whine how the Japanese are ignorant ingrates to the great Koreans. -- 61.10.12.190 16:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)