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Another article's Talk asked about Penton's bias against Jehovah's Witnesses. It seems best to simply reference verifiable scholars on the matter, and put those here. Penton himself wrote in one of his books, "Whether I have succeeded in being fair and reasonably objective in my presentation is a matter for my readers to decide."
One independent researcher claims that Penton is not merely a dispassionate academic, but a key anti-JW leader:
In May 1981, Newsweek magazine called Penton "one of 50 ex-Witnesses in Alberta, Canada, who are now working actively to debunk the sect's teachings".
Bryan Ronald Wilson was president of the International Society for the Sociology of Religion and had researched and published about Jehovah's Witnesses; Penton's JW books quote from Wilson. Wilson published these pointed comments in 1994:
Interestingly, Penton's 1997 book quotes from Wilson's words above, but concludes (page 233): "It may well be true that what Kliever, Melton, and Wilson say is correct about certain apostates, but it is difficult if not impossible to believe that their generalizations are true of all apostates.[italics retained from original]"
It would seem Penton felt stung by the universally-respected Wilson.--
AuthorityTam (
talk) 20:44, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Tom Hulse is laying it on too thick. He claims Penton is "not a reliable reference", "highly biased" and "not worthy of Wikipedia" — on the basis of what? Critical book reviews by Singelenberg and Garbe? Spicer's criticism is mild at best, Brock takes issue with one of Penton's conclusions and Castillo dislikes Penton's dismissal of converts as automatons (a reasonable view of someone who, like me, has been inside the religion). It's highly relevant that among authors and academics who have freely cited Penton in their own works is Singelenberg himself as well as Wilson. Another author cites his books on JW relations with the Nazis. In just a few minutes I found these sources who cited Penton without demur:
Academics are free to criticise Penton in book reviews, but the liberal use of him as a source in academic journals on issues on which Penton, as a prominent defector might well be expected to demonstrate bias undermines Tom Hulse's rather exaggerated claims of unreliability. BlackCab ( talk) 10:04, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
It is also unclear from the criticisms of Penton located by AuthorityTam just what it was those authors were criticising. I may be wrong, but as for me, it results quite clear that at least Garbe and Brock were criticising Penton's interpretation of the Declaration of Facts, especially Garbe, who is a Nazi-era historian (in fact he specified that from a historiographic viewpoint Penton's writings perhaps show a lack of scientific objectivity."). So I think it would be useful and appropriate to indicate that he's not reliable "from a historiographic viewpoint". For the rest, as Tom Hulse remarked, most of the comments are simply citations without any judgement about accuracy, and furthermore the subject of those citations is doctrinal, therefore highly subjective. Anaheim 94.34.102.53 ( talk) 15:27, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
The relevance of the lengthy section on a 1976 Toronto Star article is far from clear. The depth of discussion of that article by far outweighs its significance. I'd recommend deleting the lot and noting only that Penton wrote the book the Star article referred to. BlackCab ( talk) 04:55, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
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This italicized portion of the following sentence in the James Penton article needs a citation. Otherwise, it is hearsay or false opinion: "...talks by the circuit and district overseers in Lethbridge warning that those who opposed the religion’s Governing Body would be destroyed by God." If no corroboration of the content of those talks is provided other than Penton's assertion, it should be viewed as a false statement and that portion deleted.
Beverley's book on Penton appears to be the basis for much of this article. There's no evidence he would have been present to hear any of the talks. G.Larson ( talk) 21:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
First: I had already edited out the thought that Beverley is an ex-Jehovah's Witness, as I discovered later it was an error I'd gleaned from an ex-Witness site. So, why are you now bringing up a statement I'd already removed? What purpose does your pointing out a deleted sentence serve? It looks "mean-spirited" and appears you have "a personal axe to grind" with me. Further, you read more into my comment than it deserved.
At first, I had thought that a past Witness background would be a reason why Beverley was interested in writing about Penton's case, (as well as his letters to others about Witnesses). But Beverley was not a Witness himself. So I removed the error. And you brought it up. Why?
Second: The part of the sentence: "warning that those who opposed the religion’s Governing Body would be destroyed by God" is a wrong idea and "a bizarre claim" itself. It would never be said by anyone who is a Witness, especially by one taking the lead--and even more especially--by more than one person in the lead. Is that a direct quote from Beverley's book? If so, it needs a citation. Or that part of the sentence needs to be removed. Anything else is only one editor's opinion of the talks' contents. G.Larson ( talk) 19:38, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I put this under another topic but it bears repeating here: "Did you know that the very same James Beckford [you, Blackcab, cited in the other discussion] also states this in an affidavit dated in November 1998: "It is wrong for Mr ... to say that Jehovah's Witnesses regard their own organisation as 'the only absolute spiritual and political authority'. On the contrary, they proclaim their loyalty to God: not to an organisation." G.Larson ( talk) 20:40, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I see a "citation" appeared. Since the closest library copy available to me is in a foreign nation, I am attempting to order it from there. The claim that idea could have been stated anywhere in a talk is bizarre and outrageous. G.Larson ( talk) 01:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to verify the statement. Aside from the questionable use of the word "Governing Body" within that statement, saying someone "'might' lose his life" is quite a different statement than your absolute statement that they "'would' be destroyed by God". (They can have even more divergent meanings to Jehovah's Witnesses.) Finally, the article gave the impression that more than one person said those words. The assertion should be removed until it is verified. I am ordering the book and will read the talks' transcriptions for myself. G.Larson ( talk) 05:28, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
BTW: Beverley has called Jehovah's Witnesses a "cult" in one letter he wrote, and wrote other denigrating things in the same letter. So he's not a "neutral" resource. G.Larson ( talk) 07:05, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Of course despite your inclusion of Beverley's sarcastic and/or foolish comment, (which apparently underscores his own lack of scriptural knowledge), Witnesses and ex-Witnesses would know that the talk's words "stricken with leprosy" is a metaphor for being expelled from the congregation and shunned. (Under the Law given to Moses, persons with leprosy had to stay far from other Jews. The Law provided that the person could rejoin others after the disease was shown to be cured.) In that account, Aaron was upset that Miriam looked "like someone dead", and a concerned Moses interceded with God. Her quarantine only lasted seven days. (As God said, the same would have been imposed had her father merely spit in her face.) It's an apt figure of speech for disfellowshipping. So I'll read the talks when the book arrives. G.Larson ( talk) 21:31, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
If you were once a Jehovah's Witness as you've said you were, I would have thought you'd remember that Witnesses do not expect God to intervene to give bad health or punish someone in modern times, though Miriam, Herod and others in the Bible received punishment for their acts. They do not believe that God is currently dealing directly with individuals especially to mete out punishment, though--granted--one 1950 Watchtower indicated that could have been the case with one clergyman prior to the article's publication. The magazines I saw stated that the idea that God reaches out to punish people now is a false one that comes from the churches' clergy, not from JWs. One magazine article I saw said the false belief turns men away from God. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that God gives only good gifts, and allows things to happen to people by their own actions and inherent imperfection. That is also in the magazines.
I spent a only few minutes looking. I was going to cut and paste sentences to show you what is written, but then decided it's not worth it. I figure any time I spend looking through the magazines, reading and pasting citations in a post will only amount to more disagreements. As I said, I will wait til the book arrives and read the talks for themselves. G.Larson ( talk) 12:22, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
BlackCab wrote: "The GB, though just humans like the rest of us, clearly believe they are above criticism and think it is (as he explicitly said) "blasphemous" to question them. (My god, the arrogance!)"
Highly unlikely. Arrogant people usually don't last all that long as Jehovah's Witnesses. The ability to subsume one's own ego is key to effectiveness in the door-to-door work and in home Bible studies. And willingnesses "to conform" and "to obey" are not traits of arrogant people. They generally weed themselves out. G.Larson ( talk) 02:25, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Why are you worried about the number of edits? I'm not. G.Larson ( talk) 06:10, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
So, why would that affect you? (I also have a few thoughts about your own personality, but I keep them to myself.) Dissecting editors' personalities is obviously not pertinent to the discussion of articles anyway. By the way, you evidently misunderstood my response re: your perception of an arrogant attitude within the Governing Body. G.Larson ( talk) 07:47, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
What we think about each other's personalities is likely moot anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projection_%28psychology%29 G.Larson ( talk) 08:14, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Re: the quote: Author James Beverley observed: "It is not often that preachers use the threat of leprosy to keep the flock in line."
BlackCab stated: "I have quoted the overseer to support the statement in the article and that's about where it ends."
The paragraph doesn't end there. If it's supposedly only my "personal interpretation" that leprosy is a metaphor for disfellowshipping, what about Beverley's "personal interpretation" that prompted his ridiculous remark? Thinking that leprosy is a literal curse meant for Penton, (or anyone else in his position), is clearly not at all JW belief. So why would Beverley's "personal interpretation" of the talk's reference to Miriam's leprosy carry any more weight than my own? Beverley teaches at a Baptist College. His personal understanding of the overseer's remarks is something that only another religion's adherent might think. A JW knows better. Beverley's comment is clearly his own false impression of the talk's words. And Beverley displays his ignorance. The book still hasn't arrived, and I will read the talks; but, that is not what any overseer or any JW would intend to convey with the reference. There's no reason to include Beverley's remark unless there's an intent here to give a false impression to readers who are not familiar with the religion's beliefs. G.Larson ( talk) 22:56, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
BTW: I have had persistent problems with my home internet connection being lost multiple times a day. At times it's happened every few minutes. So unsaved work disappears. Rather than leave something on the screen while I think about it--or leave the computer to do other things--I've been in the habit of saving my work so it's not lost and coming back later. I've not been at all concerned when someone else has seen what's onscreen and has responded to it before I knew my comments were how I had wanted to word them, and had been reasonably sure that the typing and punctuation were correct.
I don't know why an editor would bother to take any time all to sift through someone else's past revisions in "Talk". To me, past "Talk" revisions are unimportant. "Talk" is not a public article. I can't think of any reason to bother looking through them--unless I would want to try to find something written in a previous "Talk" versions as a pretext to discredit or try to "shame" another editor. What rationale could there be?
That's all I'm going to say on this subject, or on the prior related subject of any editors' perceived personality traits. None of it has to do with anything important to Wikipedia articles. G.Larson ( talk) 22:56, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
(To be nice, I thought I'd let you in on something: Besides the current situation at home with a frequently-lost internet connection, I'd never learned how to type. I managed fine without typing proficiency at all university levels and as a business executive. And now, there are eyesight issues. It takes quite a while for me either to read anything onscreen or to type something out. (The white editing page is particularly difficult to read.) So, I don't compose my thoughts onto the screen quickly and I save frequently to prevent their loss. It's going to continue. Just get over it. Thanks.) G.Larson ( talk) 23:29, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
In his book on the expulsion of Penton, religious professor James Beverley quoted a public address given by a circuit overseer in which a comparison was made between "the man who seeks to destroy this organization" and the divine punishment of leprosy that was delivered to the biblical character of Miriam. User:G.Larson has repeatedly deleted the observation by Beverley that " "It is not often that preachers use the threat of leprosy to keep the flock in line." User:G.Larson has claimed: "Beverley's observation has nothing to do with how the words would have been received by Penton or the audience. Article is about Penton, not about Beverley's personal religious views." [3]. As a religious academic, Beverley is fully justified in making such an observation about a religion's response to dissent within its ranks. And that comment is entirely salient to this article. It is not up to a Wikipedia editor to decide "how the words would have been received by Penton or the audience" and to delete them on that basis. BlackCab ( talk) 00:16, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
As I have already observed, an inclusion of Beverley's comment would give a reader unacquainted with the religion the erroneous view that the reference of Miriam's curse was intended to be taken literally in the modern day. That would be false.
Beverley is evidently a Baptist, and the comment must reflect either his personal understanding of how God deals with people--as has already been pointed out--or an erroneous belief that JWs hold the same view as some Baptist churches. Though not all Baptists hold the belief that God punishes humans at this time,( http://www.rrcb.org/2013/03/does-god-punish-you-for-your-sins/ ), some extreme examples of that belief are here: http://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/articles/2013/04/16/boston-bombing-funerals-will-be-picketed-westboro-baptist-church-says http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=88262 — Preceding unsigned comment added by G.Larson ( talk • contribs) 00:52, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
I've done my best to explain the remark's likely understanding by most readers unacquainted with JW's beliefs. I've explained my objections to retaining Beverley's personal thoughts about what meaning was intended. If you must leave the comment in for whatever reasons, then leave it. My conscience is clear. G.Larson ( talk) 01:23, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
I think "schism" usually implies a division into two groups. Did those who left the congregation with Dr Penton start a new group?-- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 21:29, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
The lead says that his expulsion caused a schism. If one reads more, it only mentions 80 of so members separating. This religion has millions and millions of members, 80 people is nothing. It shouldn’t be mentioned in the lead. By that measure, my family could be considered “a schism in the Catholic Church”. I removed it from the lead. 82.36.70.45 ( talk) 17:43, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
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Another article's Talk asked about Penton's bias against Jehovah's Witnesses. It seems best to simply reference verifiable scholars on the matter, and put those here. Penton himself wrote in one of his books, "Whether I have succeeded in being fair and reasonably objective in my presentation is a matter for my readers to decide."
One independent researcher claims that Penton is not merely a dispassionate academic, but a key anti-JW leader:
In May 1981, Newsweek magazine called Penton "one of 50 ex-Witnesses in Alberta, Canada, who are now working actively to debunk the sect's teachings".
Bryan Ronald Wilson was president of the International Society for the Sociology of Religion and had researched and published about Jehovah's Witnesses; Penton's JW books quote from Wilson. Wilson published these pointed comments in 1994:
Interestingly, Penton's 1997 book quotes from Wilson's words above, but concludes (page 233): "It may well be true that what Kliever, Melton, and Wilson say is correct about certain apostates, but it is difficult if not impossible to believe that their generalizations are true of all apostates.[italics retained from original]"
It would seem Penton felt stung by the universally-respected Wilson.--
AuthorityTam (
talk) 20:44, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Tom Hulse is laying it on too thick. He claims Penton is "not a reliable reference", "highly biased" and "not worthy of Wikipedia" — on the basis of what? Critical book reviews by Singelenberg and Garbe? Spicer's criticism is mild at best, Brock takes issue with one of Penton's conclusions and Castillo dislikes Penton's dismissal of converts as automatons (a reasonable view of someone who, like me, has been inside the religion). It's highly relevant that among authors and academics who have freely cited Penton in their own works is Singelenberg himself as well as Wilson. Another author cites his books on JW relations with the Nazis. In just a few minutes I found these sources who cited Penton without demur:
Academics are free to criticise Penton in book reviews, but the liberal use of him as a source in academic journals on issues on which Penton, as a prominent defector might well be expected to demonstrate bias undermines Tom Hulse's rather exaggerated claims of unreliability. BlackCab ( talk) 10:04, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
It is also unclear from the criticisms of Penton located by AuthorityTam just what it was those authors were criticising. I may be wrong, but as for me, it results quite clear that at least Garbe and Brock were criticising Penton's interpretation of the Declaration of Facts, especially Garbe, who is a Nazi-era historian (in fact he specified that from a historiographic viewpoint Penton's writings perhaps show a lack of scientific objectivity."). So I think it would be useful and appropriate to indicate that he's not reliable "from a historiographic viewpoint". For the rest, as Tom Hulse remarked, most of the comments are simply citations without any judgement about accuracy, and furthermore the subject of those citations is doctrinal, therefore highly subjective. Anaheim 94.34.102.53 ( talk) 15:27, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
The relevance of the lengthy section on a 1976 Toronto Star article is far from clear. The depth of discussion of that article by far outweighs its significance. I'd recommend deleting the lot and noting only that Penton wrote the book the Star article referred to. BlackCab ( talk) 04:55, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
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This italicized portion of the following sentence in the James Penton article needs a citation. Otherwise, it is hearsay or false opinion: "...talks by the circuit and district overseers in Lethbridge warning that those who opposed the religion’s Governing Body would be destroyed by God." If no corroboration of the content of those talks is provided other than Penton's assertion, it should be viewed as a false statement and that portion deleted.
Beverley's book on Penton appears to be the basis for much of this article. There's no evidence he would have been present to hear any of the talks. G.Larson ( talk) 21:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
First: I had already edited out the thought that Beverley is an ex-Jehovah's Witness, as I discovered later it was an error I'd gleaned from an ex-Witness site. So, why are you now bringing up a statement I'd already removed? What purpose does your pointing out a deleted sentence serve? It looks "mean-spirited" and appears you have "a personal axe to grind" with me. Further, you read more into my comment than it deserved.
At first, I had thought that a past Witness background would be a reason why Beverley was interested in writing about Penton's case, (as well as his letters to others about Witnesses). But Beverley was not a Witness himself. So I removed the error. And you brought it up. Why?
Second: The part of the sentence: "warning that those who opposed the religion’s Governing Body would be destroyed by God" is a wrong idea and "a bizarre claim" itself. It would never be said by anyone who is a Witness, especially by one taking the lead--and even more especially--by more than one person in the lead. Is that a direct quote from Beverley's book? If so, it needs a citation. Or that part of the sentence needs to be removed. Anything else is only one editor's opinion of the talks' contents. G.Larson ( talk) 19:38, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I put this under another topic but it bears repeating here: "Did you know that the very same James Beckford [you, Blackcab, cited in the other discussion] also states this in an affidavit dated in November 1998: "It is wrong for Mr ... to say that Jehovah's Witnesses regard their own organisation as 'the only absolute spiritual and political authority'. On the contrary, they proclaim their loyalty to God: not to an organisation." G.Larson ( talk) 20:40, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I see a "citation" appeared. Since the closest library copy available to me is in a foreign nation, I am attempting to order it from there. The claim that idea could have been stated anywhere in a talk is bizarre and outrageous. G.Larson ( talk) 01:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to verify the statement. Aside from the questionable use of the word "Governing Body" within that statement, saying someone "'might' lose his life" is quite a different statement than your absolute statement that they "'would' be destroyed by God". (They can have even more divergent meanings to Jehovah's Witnesses.) Finally, the article gave the impression that more than one person said those words. The assertion should be removed until it is verified. I am ordering the book and will read the talks' transcriptions for myself. G.Larson ( talk) 05:28, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
BTW: Beverley has called Jehovah's Witnesses a "cult" in one letter he wrote, and wrote other denigrating things in the same letter. So he's not a "neutral" resource. G.Larson ( talk) 07:05, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Of course despite your inclusion of Beverley's sarcastic and/or foolish comment, (which apparently underscores his own lack of scriptural knowledge), Witnesses and ex-Witnesses would know that the talk's words "stricken with leprosy" is a metaphor for being expelled from the congregation and shunned. (Under the Law given to Moses, persons with leprosy had to stay far from other Jews. The Law provided that the person could rejoin others after the disease was shown to be cured.) In that account, Aaron was upset that Miriam looked "like someone dead", and a concerned Moses interceded with God. Her quarantine only lasted seven days. (As God said, the same would have been imposed had her father merely spit in her face.) It's an apt figure of speech for disfellowshipping. So I'll read the talks when the book arrives. G.Larson ( talk) 21:31, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
If you were once a Jehovah's Witness as you've said you were, I would have thought you'd remember that Witnesses do not expect God to intervene to give bad health or punish someone in modern times, though Miriam, Herod and others in the Bible received punishment for their acts. They do not believe that God is currently dealing directly with individuals especially to mete out punishment, though--granted--one 1950 Watchtower indicated that could have been the case with one clergyman prior to the article's publication. The magazines I saw stated that the idea that God reaches out to punish people now is a false one that comes from the churches' clergy, not from JWs. One magazine article I saw said the false belief turns men away from God. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that God gives only good gifts, and allows things to happen to people by their own actions and inherent imperfection. That is also in the magazines.
I spent a only few minutes looking. I was going to cut and paste sentences to show you what is written, but then decided it's not worth it. I figure any time I spend looking through the magazines, reading and pasting citations in a post will only amount to more disagreements. As I said, I will wait til the book arrives and read the talks for themselves. G.Larson ( talk) 12:22, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
BlackCab wrote: "The GB, though just humans like the rest of us, clearly believe they are above criticism and think it is (as he explicitly said) "blasphemous" to question them. (My god, the arrogance!)"
Highly unlikely. Arrogant people usually don't last all that long as Jehovah's Witnesses. The ability to subsume one's own ego is key to effectiveness in the door-to-door work and in home Bible studies. And willingnesses "to conform" and "to obey" are not traits of arrogant people. They generally weed themselves out. G.Larson ( talk) 02:25, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Why are you worried about the number of edits? I'm not. G.Larson ( talk) 06:10, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
So, why would that affect you? (I also have a few thoughts about your own personality, but I keep them to myself.) Dissecting editors' personalities is obviously not pertinent to the discussion of articles anyway. By the way, you evidently misunderstood my response re: your perception of an arrogant attitude within the Governing Body. G.Larson ( talk) 07:47, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
What we think about each other's personalities is likely moot anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projection_%28psychology%29 G.Larson ( talk) 08:14, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Re: the quote: Author James Beverley observed: "It is not often that preachers use the threat of leprosy to keep the flock in line."
BlackCab stated: "I have quoted the overseer to support the statement in the article and that's about where it ends."
The paragraph doesn't end there. If it's supposedly only my "personal interpretation" that leprosy is a metaphor for disfellowshipping, what about Beverley's "personal interpretation" that prompted his ridiculous remark? Thinking that leprosy is a literal curse meant for Penton, (or anyone else in his position), is clearly not at all JW belief. So why would Beverley's "personal interpretation" of the talk's reference to Miriam's leprosy carry any more weight than my own? Beverley teaches at a Baptist College. His personal understanding of the overseer's remarks is something that only another religion's adherent might think. A JW knows better. Beverley's comment is clearly his own false impression of the talk's words. And Beverley displays his ignorance. The book still hasn't arrived, and I will read the talks; but, that is not what any overseer or any JW would intend to convey with the reference. There's no reason to include Beverley's remark unless there's an intent here to give a false impression to readers who are not familiar with the religion's beliefs. G.Larson ( talk) 22:56, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
BTW: I have had persistent problems with my home internet connection being lost multiple times a day. At times it's happened every few minutes. So unsaved work disappears. Rather than leave something on the screen while I think about it--or leave the computer to do other things--I've been in the habit of saving my work so it's not lost and coming back later. I've not been at all concerned when someone else has seen what's onscreen and has responded to it before I knew my comments were how I had wanted to word them, and had been reasonably sure that the typing and punctuation were correct.
I don't know why an editor would bother to take any time all to sift through someone else's past revisions in "Talk". To me, past "Talk" revisions are unimportant. "Talk" is not a public article. I can't think of any reason to bother looking through them--unless I would want to try to find something written in a previous "Talk" versions as a pretext to discredit or try to "shame" another editor. What rationale could there be?
That's all I'm going to say on this subject, or on the prior related subject of any editors' perceived personality traits. None of it has to do with anything important to Wikipedia articles. G.Larson ( talk) 22:56, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
(To be nice, I thought I'd let you in on something: Besides the current situation at home with a frequently-lost internet connection, I'd never learned how to type. I managed fine without typing proficiency at all university levels and as a business executive. And now, there are eyesight issues. It takes quite a while for me either to read anything onscreen or to type something out. (The white editing page is particularly difficult to read.) So, I don't compose my thoughts onto the screen quickly and I save frequently to prevent their loss. It's going to continue. Just get over it. Thanks.) G.Larson ( talk) 23:29, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
In his book on the expulsion of Penton, religious professor James Beverley quoted a public address given by a circuit overseer in which a comparison was made between "the man who seeks to destroy this organization" and the divine punishment of leprosy that was delivered to the biblical character of Miriam. User:G.Larson has repeatedly deleted the observation by Beverley that " "It is not often that preachers use the threat of leprosy to keep the flock in line." User:G.Larson has claimed: "Beverley's observation has nothing to do with how the words would have been received by Penton or the audience. Article is about Penton, not about Beverley's personal religious views." [3]. As a religious academic, Beverley is fully justified in making such an observation about a religion's response to dissent within its ranks. And that comment is entirely salient to this article. It is not up to a Wikipedia editor to decide "how the words would have been received by Penton or the audience" and to delete them on that basis. BlackCab ( talk) 00:16, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
As I have already observed, an inclusion of Beverley's comment would give a reader unacquainted with the religion the erroneous view that the reference of Miriam's curse was intended to be taken literally in the modern day. That would be false.
Beverley is evidently a Baptist, and the comment must reflect either his personal understanding of how God deals with people--as has already been pointed out--or an erroneous belief that JWs hold the same view as some Baptist churches. Though not all Baptists hold the belief that God punishes humans at this time,( http://www.rrcb.org/2013/03/does-god-punish-you-for-your-sins/ ), some extreme examples of that belief are here: http://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/articles/2013/04/16/boston-bombing-funerals-will-be-picketed-westboro-baptist-church-says http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=88262 — Preceding unsigned comment added by G.Larson ( talk • contribs) 00:52, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
I've done my best to explain the remark's likely understanding by most readers unacquainted with JW's beliefs. I've explained my objections to retaining Beverley's personal thoughts about what meaning was intended. If you must leave the comment in for whatever reasons, then leave it. My conscience is clear. G.Larson ( talk) 01:23, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
I think "schism" usually implies a division into two groups. Did those who left the congregation with Dr Penton start a new group?-- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 21:29, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
The lead says that his expulsion caused a schism. If one reads more, it only mentions 80 of so members separating. This religion has millions and millions of members, 80 people is nothing. It shouldn’t be mentioned in the lead. By that measure, my family could be considered “a schism in the Catholic Church”. I removed it from the lead. 82.36.70.45 ( talk) 17:43, 18 June 2023 (UTC)