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Removed, at least for now. Other than Howard Marks (best classed as a primary source) who isn't even consistent about McCann's status, everyone else seems to disagree. Anarchy in the UK describes him as a "phoney IRA member", The Post makes no mention of him being in the IRA (and says he "mixed with unsuspecting IRA men", which suggests he wasn't), this newspaper says he was an arms dealer involved with the IRA but "did not claim to be a member of the IRA", the Irish Independent don't say he was in the IRA, and Tim Pat Coogan describes him as a "man once prominently associated with the IRA" (note the meaning of the words, that's very different from "a former prominent IRA member" or anything similar. Although I probably wouldn't use it as a source in the article, this is good for pre-escape info on McCann. He wasn't in prison for IRA activity, he was an anarchist who firebombed a university common room. 2 lines of K 303 12:48, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
I think the conclusion from this is that McCann was no anarchist, and that the writer is correct when he describes McCann as a psychopath and opportunist who hung about the radical tourist circles looking for a way to make money from the situation. And he did, but largely through associating with the IRA through his arms smuggling, and the world of "ordinary decent crime" through his drug trafficking. --
Mardyke (
talk)
08:07, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Article moved to James McCann (drugs trafficker). fish& karate 12:56, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
James McCann (Irish republican) →
James McCann (drugs trafficker) – The disambiguator "Irish republican" is generally reserved for people who are notable for being Irish republicans, and see the section above for the problems with calling him a member of the IRA. I don't mind any other disambiguator that anyone wants to suggest such as "criminal" or anything similar, but the current title is a no-go as far as I'm concerned.
2 lines of K
303
12:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Why would we have an article about him if he were just a drugs smuggler? Surely the notable thing about him (if any) is his alleged connections with the IRA and supposed involvement in arms smuggling for them. If we think the sources are sound as regards those allegations, we should make that the emphasis of the article, and the disambiguator "(arms smuggler)" or something. If we're not prepared to talk about that, then there seems no reason to keep the article at all.-- Kotniski ( talk) 13:27, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
OPPOSE MOVE: His case seems to be the exact opposite of that of Martin McGuinness, who denies ever having been a member of the Provo IRA but is commonly listed as such. McCann claimed membership, but as the IRA didn't (don't?) have member lists his claim can neither be proved nor disproved. However, as his entire career is bound up with a mythos of having been at the very least an IRA associate, and he did smuggle weapons to the PIRA in the early 70s, and he is on an Interpol watch list for terrorist activity, and he was accused of bombing the BA HQ at Rheindalen in Germany in 1971 and twice faced extradition proceedings for that, then treating him as merely a drug trafficker is as erroneous as treating him as just another IRA volunteer. He was involved with the Citizens Defence Committees in Belfast in the early 70s which preceded the revival of the IRA and his sympathies were entirely republican. So what do we do? Change the title to 'Irish republican and drugs trafficker'? Mardyke ( talk) 10:02, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Mardyke ( talk) 15:08, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
And, to state the obvious, you don't have to be a member of the Provisional IRA to be a republican, which is the title description. Think of Saor Eire, Officlal IRA, IRSP and INLA, etc etc. In fact, McCann could be a perfectly devout republican without having any membership card in any organisation. Mardyke ( talk) 10:06, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Mardyke ( talk) 15:08, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Ehm, why so quickly this move? The original reguest was hardly 9 hours old when the move came. A bit more time for discussion would not have been a bad idea... Night of the Big Wind talk 13:03, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Do we have a source that says he was actually convicted of drugs trafficking at some time and place? The only concrete arrest I can find was in Ireland in 1979, and it appears he was acquitted or let off on that occasion.-- Kotniski ( talk) 13:12, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
As a newbie, I would appreciate some guidance rather than the sneers I have received from 2 lines of K303
-- Mardyke ( talk) 07:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
I grew up with James visiting us during the summers, back then he went by Kennedy as surname. Last time i met him was about ten years ago. He is a very hard man to label. He can be extremely civilized in one moment and make surprisingly crude comments in the next. He will tell you one crazy story after the other and its always impossible to verify what is true and what has been conjured up to improve the story, and the stories are generally very good! I must say I thoroughly enjoyed the Howard Marks movie as it gave an interesting explanation to some of James´s irratic behaviour back when i was young. We always suspected he was into some really crazy stuff but never quite realized what it was. Sorry! I realize that was slightly off topic HOWEVER: One thing that has always been very clear and in no way in any doubt for anyone who has spent time with James is this: The man is extremely polarized in his views on the whole Northern Ireland issue. I doubt i have ever heard him utter a positive sentence describing anything english. Instead its always the "f-n english", "english bastards" and so on. No matter if he actually was part of the IRA or not, my best guess is that much of the motivation for any alleged criminal activity involving guns and drugs moved into or through Ireland would be political. That doesn´t mean I do not think he made any personal profits in the process; the man does like the good things in life! But reducing him to a mere drug, or drugs, trafficker and ignoring all the rest because the IRA hasn´t produced a list of members with him on it is just silly. He is a man who no doubt believes in the concept of a unified Irish Republic and who has, in his own crazy adventurous way, acted to promote that idea. So why not label him "Alleged drugs trafficker inclined to support the Irish Republic"? If it talks like a duck, looks like a duck and walks like a duck its probably a duck! MarcBirc ( talk) 22:45, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§
You are so right, MarcBirc. As someone who also knows James and has spent years following his career and studying him, I have been arguing the same points with the editors here for a couple of years now. Earlier versions of the Wikipedia entry got it more or less right. The present truncated and bowdlerised entry, while not entirely inaccurate, is a misrepresentation.
For example, the sentence "He was imprisoned at various times in Germany, France, Canada, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland on drug- or political violence-related matters[5]" gives a very false impression. Most readers would think he had been convicted of some crime, for which he was then imprisoned, in all these places, which is just not true. One of the major points about McCann, and why he was called the 'Shamrock Pimpernel' by Irish media, is that he always escaped in some way — either by jailbreak, by acquittal, by deportation, or by winning his case against extradition. The fact is, except for minor convictions for forging cheques and the like in Britain in the 1960s, the only crime he has ever been tried and found guilty of was the Telmo drug scam.
This truncated entry is, oddly enough, largely the result of Irish Republican sympathisers such as 2 lines of K303 and RepublicanJacobite wanting to cleanse their movement of any association with McCann. However, the fact is that McCann was an active member of the Belfast Citizens Defence Committee, the precursor to the revived IRA of the 1970s, and a close friend of Martin Meehan, later Belfast Brigade O/C, and other stalwarts of the IRA in the city. The IRA was certainly very happy to accept the shipments of weapons he smuggled through the port of Greenore in Ireland, at least until Muammar Gaddhafi became their main benefactor.
Mardyke ( talk) 15:45, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
The link http://www.howardmarks.name/multimedia/audio.asp in citation number 4, "Howard Marks interview" is broken. Page says it no longer exists. I would fix it if I could find an alternative link, but I could not.
-- Mardyke ( talk) 07:41, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
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This article contains, in places, numerous violations of WP:BLP.
To begin with, the final three paragraphs detail, and in places state as fact, that McCann perpetrated a fraud. The Dutch source would need updating to this link, except for the problem that as this article says Dutch prosecutors never had enough evidence to prosecute McCann. Since he was never charged, never mind convicted, the inclusion flies in the face of WP:BLPCRIME which says a living person accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty. Since McCann was never charged, I am removing all mention of this. If anyone would like to use the Dutch source to write something that is 100% compliant with WP:BLPCRIME I may have no objection, I don't speak Dutch and I don't want to use automatic translation tools for information relating to serious allegations about living people.
Secondly, this is in direct violation of WP:BLPSPS as it is hosted on wordpress, and is part of an attack site on McCann no less. It can't be used under any circumstances.
Thirdly, this is in direct violation of WP:BLPPRIMARY, which says "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses".
Lastly, this (it is listed in the footnotes twice, as #8 and #9) would appear to be also in violation of WP:BLPPRIMARY. All it really does is confirm his attendance at a conference, which would appear to be a meaningless standalone fact once the WP:BLPCRIME violations above have been removed. To that end, I don't see the relevance and have removed it. MarcoMrNicePolo ( talk) 10:25, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Removed, at least for now. Other than Howard Marks (best classed as a primary source) who isn't even consistent about McCann's status, everyone else seems to disagree. Anarchy in the UK describes him as a "phoney IRA member", The Post makes no mention of him being in the IRA (and says he "mixed with unsuspecting IRA men", which suggests he wasn't), this newspaper says he was an arms dealer involved with the IRA but "did not claim to be a member of the IRA", the Irish Independent don't say he was in the IRA, and Tim Pat Coogan describes him as a "man once prominently associated with the IRA" (note the meaning of the words, that's very different from "a former prominent IRA member" or anything similar. Although I probably wouldn't use it as a source in the article, this is good for pre-escape info on McCann. He wasn't in prison for IRA activity, he was an anarchist who firebombed a university common room. 2 lines of K 303 12:48, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
I think the conclusion from this is that McCann was no anarchist, and that the writer is correct when he describes McCann as a psychopath and opportunist who hung about the radical tourist circles looking for a way to make money from the situation. And he did, but largely through associating with the IRA through his arms smuggling, and the world of "ordinary decent crime" through his drug trafficking. --
Mardyke (
talk)
08:07, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Article moved to James McCann (drugs trafficker). fish& karate 12:56, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
James McCann (Irish republican) →
James McCann (drugs trafficker) – The disambiguator "Irish republican" is generally reserved for people who are notable for being Irish republicans, and see the section above for the problems with calling him a member of the IRA. I don't mind any other disambiguator that anyone wants to suggest such as "criminal" or anything similar, but the current title is a no-go as far as I'm concerned.
2 lines of K
303
12:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Why would we have an article about him if he were just a drugs smuggler? Surely the notable thing about him (if any) is his alleged connections with the IRA and supposed involvement in arms smuggling for them. If we think the sources are sound as regards those allegations, we should make that the emphasis of the article, and the disambiguator "(arms smuggler)" or something. If we're not prepared to talk about that, then there seems no reason to keep the article at all.-- Kotniski ( talk) 13:27, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
OPPOSE MOVE: His case seems to be the exact opposite of that of Martin McGuinness, who denies ever having been a member of the Provo IRA but is commonly listed as such. McCann claimed membership, but as the IRA didn't (don't?) have member lists his claim can neither be proved nor disproved. However, as his entire career is bound up with a mythos of having been at the very least an IRA associate, and he did smuggle weapons to the PIRA in the early 70s, and he is on an Interpol watch list for terrorist activity, and he was accused of bombing the BA HQ at Rheindalen in Germany in 1971 and twice faced extradition proceedings for that, then treating him as merely a drug trafficker is as erroneous as treating him as just another IRA volunteer. He was involved with the Citizens Defence Committees in Belfast in the early 70s which preceded the revival of the IRA and his sympathies were entirely republican. So what do we do? Change the title to 'Irish republican and drugs trafficker'? Mardyke ( talk) 10:02, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Mardyke ( talk) 15:08, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
And, to state the obvious, you don't have to be a member of the Provisional IRA to be a republican, which is the title description. Think of Saor Eire, Officlal IRA, IRSP and INLA, etc etc. In fact, McCann could be a perfectly devout republican without having any membership card in any organisation. Mardyke ( talk) 10:06, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Mardyke ( talk) 15:08, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Ehm, why so quickly this move? The original reguest was hardly 9 hours old when the move came. A bit more time for discussion would not have been a bad idea... Night of the Big Wind talk 13:03, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Do we have a source that says he was actually convicted of drugs trafficking at some time and place? The only concrete arrest I can find was in Ireland in 1979, and it appears he was acquitted or let off on that occasion.-- Kotniski ( talk) 13:12, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
As a newbie, I would appreciate some guidance rather than the sneers I have received from 2 lines of K303
-- Mardyke ( talk) 07:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
I grew up with James visiting us during the summers, back then he went by Kennedy as surname. Last time i met him was about ten years ago. He is a very hard man to label. He can be extremely civilized in one moment and make surprisingly crude comments in the next. He will tell you one crazy story after the other and its always impossible to verify what is true and what has been conjured up to improve the story, and the stories are generally very good! I must say I thoroughly enjoyed the Howard Marks movie as it gave an interesting explanation to some of James´s irratic behaviour back when i was young. We always suspected he was into some really crazy stuff but never quite realized what it was. Sorry! I realize that was slightly off topic HOWEVER: One thing that has always been very clear and in no way in any doubt for anyone who has spent time with James is this: The man is extremely polarized in his views on the whole Northern Ireland issue. I doubt i have ever heard him utter a positive sentence describing anything english. Instead its always the "f-n english", "english bastards" and so on. No matter if he actually was part of the IRA or not, my best guess is that much of the motivation for any alleged criminal activity involving guns and drugs moved into or through Ireland would be political. That doesn´t mean I do not think he made any personal profits in the process; the man does like the good things in life! But reducing him to a mere drug, or drugs, trafficker and ignoring all the rest because the IRA hasn´t produced a list of members with him on it is just silly. He is a man who no doubt believes in the concept of a unified Irish Republic and who has, in his own crazy adventurous way, acted to promote that idea. So why not label him "Alleged drugs trafficker inclined to support the Irish Republic"? If it talks like a duck, looks like a duck and walks like a duck its probably a duck! MarcBirc ( talk) 22:45, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§
You are so right, MarcBirc. As someone who also knows James and has spent years following his career and studying him, I have been arguing the same points with the editors here for a couple of years now. Earlier versions of the Wikipedia entry got it more or less right. The present truncated and bowdlerised entry, while not entirely inaccurate, is a misrepresentation.
For example, the sentence "He was imprisoned at various times in Germany, France, Canada, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland on drug- or political violence-related matters[5]" gives a very false impression. Most readers would think he had been convicted of some crime, for which he was then imprisoned, in all these places, which is just not true. One of the major points about McCann, and why he was called the 'Shamrock Pimpernel' by Irish media, is that he always escaped in some way — either by jailbreak, by acquittal, by deportation, or by winning his case against extradition. The fact is, except for minor convictions for forging cheques and the like in Britain in the 1960s, the only crime he has ever been tried and found guilty of was the Telmo drug scam.
This truncated entry is, oddly enough, largely the result of Irish Republican sympathisers such as 2 lines of K303 and RepublicanJacobite wanting to cleanse their movement of any association with McCann. However, the fact is that McCann was an active member of the Belfast Citizens Defence Committee, the precursor to the revived IRA of the 1970s, and a close friend of Martin Meehan, later Belfast Brigade O/C, and other stalwarts of the IRA in the city. The IRA was certainly very happy to accept the shipments of weapons he smuggled through the port of Greenore in Ireland, at least until Muammar Gaddhafi became their main benefactor.
Mardyke ( talk) 15:45, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
The link http://www.howardmarks.name/multimedia/audio.asp in citation number 4, "Howard Marks interview" is broken. Page says it no longer exists. I would fix it if I could find an alternative link, but I could not.
-- Mardyke ( talk) 07:41, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on James McCann (drugs trafficker). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:28, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on James McCann (drugs trafficker). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
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have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:14, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
This article contains, in places, numerous violations of WP:BLP.
To begin with, the final three paragraphs detail, and in places state as fact, that McCann perpetrated a fraud. The Dutch source would need updating to this link, except for the problem that as this article says Dutch prosecutors never had enough evidence to prosecute McCann. Since he was never charged, never mind convicted, the inclusion flies in the face of WP:BLPCRIME which says a living person accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty. Since McCann was never charged, I am removing all mention of this. If anyone would like to use the Dutch source to write something that is 100% compliant with WP:BLPCRIME I may have no objection, I don't speak Dutch and I don't want to use automatic translation tools for information relating to serious allegations about living people.
Secondly, this is in direct violation of WP:BLPSPS as it is hosted on wordpress, and is part of an attack site on McCann no less. It can't be used under any circumstances.
Thirdly, this is in direct violation of WP:BLPPRIMARY, which says "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses".
Lastly, this (it is listed in the footnotes twice, as #8 and #9) would appear to be also in violation of WP:BLPPRIMARY. All it really does is confirm his attendance at a conference, which would appear to be a meaningless standalone fact once the WP:BLPCRIME violations above have been removed. To that end, I don't see the relevance and have removed it. MarcoMrNicePolo ( talk) 10:25, 21 February 2020 (UTC)