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Conspiracy theories aside, are there any modern postulations as to what mental illness(es) Forrestal may have suffered? jengod 19:47, Aug 1, 2004 (UTC)
No one has gone past the diagnosis of the lead psychiatrist in the case, Capt. George Raines, who described the condition simply as "depression," as one can read in his official testimony at http://infoshare1.princeton.edu/libraries/firestone/rbsc/finding_aids/forrestal/willcutts/report1.pdf
"DC Dave" Martin claims to have gotten hold of the original Willcutts report. [1] (Apparently JVF was against the invention of Israel - explaining the Israeli agents.) 142.177.21.40 15:37, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm reading the Wilcutts report in a PDF, and it makes pretty clear that it was a suicide.
That's hardly the impression one gets from reading the analysis at http://www.dcdave.com/article4/040922.html .
The report is here, in two PDFs. - Penta 04:14, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A much easier to read HTML version is here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.125.38.128 ( talk) 06:21, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
I have attempted to rewrite this in a more readable fashion by creating a separate section for the conspiracy theories involved in Forrestal's death. The previous version was extremely confusing, with the conspiracy theory interspersed through the whole article instead of in once place. Did i miss anything in this version? Please let me know....TSC, 22:45 EDT, 17 Oct 2005
I have edited the edit described above to set the facts straight, to impart some additional information, and to further improve the readability. GDM, 11:15 EDT, 21 Oct 2005
I have removed the last sentence in which Forrestal was described as a fanatical Roman Catholic and was said to be an extreme anti-Semite. His biographers agree that he was a fallen-away Catholic who was interested in getting back in touch with his religious upbringing. As for the "anti-Semite" charge, no one making it has produced any credible evidence. He made his fortune working for the Jewish-owned investment banking firm, Dillon Read. GDM 12-18-2005
Anecdotal evidence suggests he was not an anti-semite. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 22:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I have added the Dorwart reference and corrected the date of the Hoopes and Brinkley book. It came out in 1992, not 1982. GDM 12-18-2005
This page still has the tone of lending credibility to the conspiracy theories. It seems that I cannot edit the first paragraph, which claims that Forrestal's conflict with the Air Force caused his mental illness. This is absurd. Establishing causation of mental illness is exceedingly difficult, and to reduce it to this cause alone is absolutely ridiculous. I would also like to see a footnote that proves that he never ran into the streets of Florida screaming "The Russians are coming!" Historian James Carrol, son of the first CIA director, recounted this anecdote on NPR as if it were fact, on the program "Forum," 6/5/06. He also confirmed that Forrestal was definitely mentally ill at the time of his suicide in 1949, and had been mentally ill during most, if not all of his tenure as the first Secretary of Defense. Carrol implies that the real reason some government agents tried to cover up the real circumstances of his suicide were simply that it wouldn't look very good for the Truman administration to have their Secretary of Defense being obviously mentally ill and jumping out of the window of the hospital where he was being treated, and this article does not reflect this possibility at all. RSW, 5 June 2006
"One of Pearson's most spectacular claims was that while Forrestal was at Hobe Sound, Florida, shortly before he was hospitalized, he was awakened by a siren in the middle of the night and ran out into the street exclaiming, "The Russians are attacking." This claim has not been confirmed by anyone who was there that night, and was described as a fabrication by Captain George Raines, the Navy doctor in charge of Forrestal's treatment (See Hoopes and Brinkley, pp. 455-456.)." George Raines couldn't have known. The lack of witnesses proves little. Drew reported what was told to him and attacking Pearson for reporting seems pretty fishy to this old journalist. In any case, however wild the incident, Pearson was proved right--Forrestal was a nut roll wrapped in a fruitcake hidden in a nutburger (and died escaping from the nuthatch, to boot). He did believe obviously paranoid delusions and was visibly, physically weakened by lack of sleep and nutrition, either of which will make any psychiatric condition worse (except for obesity and catalepsy, of course). There is a LOT of editorializing in this and other articles featuring events in the late 40s and early 50s implying that Senator McCarthy was right and his opponents were wrong, that the government was riddled with communist spies, and so forth. In the bright light of day and supported by documents from the brief period of perestroyka, it is clear that McCarty was unjustified in his accusations. I think you may have acquired a right-wing mole who is undermining the reliability of the information in your biographical pieces by eschewing straight reportage in favor of establishing a popular basis for the basic paranoia that underlies a lot of right wing positions. The fact is that the right wing is the province of paranoids and latent homosexuals like Forrestal, McCarthy, and others. Not to diminish the contribution of Forrestal--the carrier fleet may have won World War II and dominated US hegemony during the middle of the 20th century--military and diplomatic. (It became obsolete and even a liability before Vietnam, however.) (I'm also an old sailor; in fact, I served aboard the USS Forrestal. We called it the suicide ship because I believe it to be the only warship named for a suicide, and it even attempted to destroy itself on at least two occasions.) But the guy was obviously plagued by demons that affected everyone who was close to him and he probably matured into a position where he was unable to deny them anymore (one of the more lethal of the Peter principles). The more your daily activities focus on thinking rather than carrying out orders, the harder it is to keep depression and failure out of central focus. It's why older people and retirees have such a high suicide rate, and I would argue it's why so many retirees die fairly young, shortly after retirement. I'd like to recommend that the originator of these editorial passages be found and encouraged to seek treatment from a psychiatrist. Once he is able to admit his homosexual feelings, he will probably make an effective contributor again. (I'm an old psychiatric social worker, too.) But while he is seeking detox and treatment, you should also review all biographies for entries by this mole and correct them, return them to editorial language, or delete them. 152.13.99.132 14:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Re: NPOV disputed--Citation is needed for the theory that Admiral Byrd was on a mission to locate a secret nazi base in Antarctica. Alternately this should be labelled as a "conspiracy theory". Also, why is this in the "reference" section rather than the conspiracy section immediately above? The theory of a secret nazi base is highly improbable due to the amount of funding necessary for its support and maintenance. Khalkhingol 22:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Why does the issue of Forrestal's sanity/insanity prove that he was or was not murdered. He could have been both insane and delusional as all get out and still have been murdered. Proving his sanity doesn't prove he was murdered and proving insanity doesn't prove he killed himself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.70.172.160 ( talk) 06:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to have serious POV and due weight problems in terms of Forrestal's death. Aren't all these conspiracy theories fringe views? Do any legitimate scholars or Forrestal biographers believe that his death was anything but suicide? I have, at the very least, removed some nonsense about L. Ron Hubbard's view of Forrestal's death, but even with that gone, the whole thing is seriously problematic. I'm going to remove all the cruft about conspiracy theories, and change "alleged suicide" to just "suicide" unless someone can provide some evidence that this is anything but a lunatic fringe theory. john k ( talk) 05:14, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
One of the "Majestic Papers" whether bogus or not mentions that his death was nessessary now please realize that parts of this were Blacked out and "Edited". I am now Quoting from this document.
"In protecting the security operations of MAJESTIC it has been necessary to eliminate individuals who would compromise the intelligence efforts. While distasteful [Blacked]t times, the use of [Blacked] measures have been executed. The untimely death of Secretary Forrestal, was deemed necessary and [Blacked]" Special:Contributions/ ( talk) 19:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I had understood that Forrestal's depression was related to the newly formed USAF claiming that because of its strategic bombers that the Navy should be reduced or eliminated much like proponents of air to air missiles said that machine guns on aircraft were no longer necessary. I thought that a vote was taken in congress and by only one vote was the Navy kept as a major part of the armed forces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.11.176.78 ( talk) 16:19, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Why is there any reference to conspiracy theories? WP already offers objective evidence that Forrestal was personally subjected to discrete campaigns of harassment: The article evidences "outright fabrication" against him- and an opinion from US ambassador to Israel James G. McDonald that "attacks" [plural] on Forrestal were "unjustifiable", "persistent and venomous" and "among the ugliest example... of politicians...[designing] to destroy public servants".
This article offers no theories which allege any conspiracy.
Objectively it better serves the spirit of all WP -and of true "public service" to investigate the nature of Ambassador McDonald's allegations. OTOH nebulous, prejudicial terms regarding Forrestal's response to this political intrigue around him serve only to continue a hostility against, and ridicule of this powerful + intelligent, yet principled person.
Which interests pursue this slander after 60 years?... Hilarleo Hey,L.E.O. 08:31, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Lets play a game. It's called "Ockham's Razor vs. The Lunatic Fringe on Wikipedia"
Established, undeniable facts: a famous public servant and military man undergoes vast stress, strain and media harassment while working 18-hour days in a highly controversial public job, culminating in an embarrassing public dismissal from the position that has defined his entire existence for the last 2 years. He immediately falls into a "strange daze", is diagnosed with acute stress-induced reactive depression and is hospitalized in the locked psychiatric ward of one of the nation's top military hospitals under the care of a team of psychiatrists. At some point during his treatment for acute depression in the locked psychiatric ward of this famous military hospital, he ends up dead, having plummeted from the window of his 16th story room in his bathrobe.
Now that we've got the facts out of the way, pick which one of these two follow up options represents Ockham's Razor and which represents some combination of the Wikipedia Zionist/UFO/Communist/Majestic 12 lunatic fringe that needs to be driven off this project with flamethrowers and roach spray:
Option 1: The aforementioned man, like many sufferers of severe depression who require hospitalization in a locked ward and constant supervision for their own safety, committed suicide by the means available (an unlocked window in a tall building) when the opportunity (a temporary lack of constant supervision) presented itself. The various evidentiary details surrounding this act should be reviewed carefully, but cannot be considered prima facie evidence of conspiracy, murder or other foul play so long as more reasonable explanations for their presence also exist.
Option 2: The Israelis (potentially working on behalf of Majestic 12) infiltrated a locked psych ward in the nation's biggest military hospital and murdered the aforementioned man to shut him up, because he knew too much about the international Jewish/UFO conspiracy. They then bribed/mind-erased hundreds of Congressmen, Senators, psychiatrists and naval officers using their Jew golds/alien mind-erasers, but left obvious forensic evidence for later-day investigators to find, knowing that they would be ignored and mocked as fringe lunatics by the Jew/alien mind slaves who feed America their truth. This option is equally as likely as the option he committed suicide, and should be presented that way in the article; disagreement by citing WP:UNDUE is prima facie evidence that the objector is a Jew-alien mind slave and should be treated thusly. Court Appointed Shrub ( talk) 04:06, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I've changed the subsection "Assassination allegations" to "Assassination theories", because there is only theory, no allegation. An allegation is a claim of a fact, although not immediately provided with proof. That being said - the assassination is everything but a fact - it is conjecture and theory. Wikipedia is a place for facts and the subsection is clearly intended to push the reader to the conclusion that assassination is not only possible, but also likely. That is my view a violation for the very purpose of Wikipedia. On a personal note: I am of a mind to remove the subsection entirely, because it clearly belongs in the bin with other conspiracy theories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cadoras ( talk • contribs) 14:35, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
I also removed the suicide/foul play theorems from the introductory text. It simply does not belong there, if you want to include mention of the theory, it should be as subsection of the cause of death, not in the poor man's introductory text. It is only acceptable if the cause of death is defining of the character, like for example Robert Budd Dwyer. But that is not the case here.
How about instead of facts we simply ask questions? How is a 16th floor window left open in an ASYLUM with a potentially suicidal STATESMAN left open? The open window assume that the doctors, guards, and family are all completely incompetent, ignorant, and unprofessional?
I agree that conspiracy 'theories' should not be stated as fact, but let me remind you that as a scientist ALL FACTS are theories, we simply call them FACTS or LAWS until a better Theory comes along. After all, the world is still FLAT isn't it? Careful with your answer, it might get your burned at the stake.
My removal of the following passage has been reversed because it wasn't talked about here first: If Forrestal's [work], according to some intelligence sources, then he could not scribble the word 'nightingale' in the poem because it was the code name of the Ukrainian Nazi elite unit Nachtigall Brigade which Forrestal had helped to smuggle to the United States to supplant Kim Philby's failed ABN (Anti Bolshevik Nationals), an MI6 Soviet émigré fascist group." I said it sounded like nonsense. Doesn't it? What sense does it make? At the very least, it's far from the heart of the matter. I also removed the juxtaposing of "conspiracy theories"to "legitimate concerns." This suggests that all theories of conspiracy are always illegitimate, which we know is far from the case. "Conspiracy theory" is typically used pejoratively to mean any conclusion that differs from the official government conclusion. Using that definition even, the assumption lying behind the statement seems to be that the government concluded that Forrestal committed suicide. Go back and read the last word on the death, the conclusion of the Willcutts Report. It left completely open the question of responsibility for Forrestal's fall from the window. ˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by StuartHedrick ( talk • contribs) 14:41, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Since Forrestal most likely committed suicide, is it right to put Defenestration category here? 5.1.21.254 ( talk) 11:04, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
James Forrestal article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Conspiracy theories aside, are there any modern postulations as to what mental illness(es) Forrestal may have suffered? jengod 19:47, Aug 1, 2004 (UTC)
No one has gone past the diagnosis of the lead psychiatrist in the case, Capt. George Raines, who described the condition simply as "depression," as one can read in his official testimony at http://infoshare1.princeton.edu/libraries/firestone/rbsc/finding_aids/forrestal/willcutts/report1.pdf
"DC Dave" Martin claims to have gotten hold of the original Willcutts report. [1] (Apparently JVF was against the invention of Israel - explaining the Israeli agents.) 142.177.21.40 15:37, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm reading the Wilcutts report in a PDF, and it makes pretty clear that it was a suicide.
That's hardly the impression one gets from reading the analysis at http://www.dcdave.com/article4/040922.html .
The report is here, in two PDFs. - Penta 04:14, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A much easier to read HTML version is here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.125.38.128 ( talk) 06:21, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
I have attempted to rewrite this in a more readable fashion by creating a separate section for the conspiracy theories involved in Forrestal's death. The previous version was extremely confusing, with the conspiracy theory interspersed through the whole article instead of in once place. Did i miss anything in this version? Please let me know....TSC, 22:45 EDT, 17 Oct 2005
I have edited the edit described above to set the facts straight, to impart some additional information, and to further improve the readability. GDM, 11:15 EDT, 21 Oct 2005
I have removed the last sentence in which Forrestal was described as a fanatical Roman Catholic and was said to be an extreme anti-Semite. His biographers agree that he was a fallen-away Catholic who was interested in getting back in touch with his religious upbringing. As for the "anti-Semite" charge, no one making it has produced any credible evidence. He made his fortune working for the Jewish-owned investment banking firm, Dillon Read. GDM 12-18-2005
Anecdotal evidence suggests he was not an anti-semite. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 22:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I have added the Dorwart reference and corrected the date of the Hoopes and Brinkley book. It came out in 1992, not 1982. GDM 12-18-2005
This page still has the tone of lending credibility to the conspiracy theories. It seems that I cannot edit the first paragraph, which claims that Forrestal's conflict with the Air Force caused his mental illness. This is absurd. Establishing causation of mental illness is exceedingly difficult, and to reduce it to this cause alone is absolutely ridiculous. I would also like to see a footnote that proves that he never ran into the streets of Florida screaming "The Russians are coming!" Historian James Carrol, son of the first CIA director, recounted this anecdote on NPR as if it were fact, on the program "Forum," 6/5/06. He also confirmed that Forrestal was definitely mentally ill at the time of his suicide in 1949, and had been mentally ill during most, if not all of his tenure as the first Secretary of Defense. Carrol implies that the real reason some government agents tried to cover up the real circumstances of his suicide were simply that it wouldn't look very good for the Truman administration to have their Secretary of Defense being obviously mentally ill and jumping out of the window of the hospital where he was being treated, and this article does not reflect this possibility at all. RSW, 5 June 2006
"One of Pearson's most spectacular claims was that while Forrestal was at Hobe Sound, Florida, shortly before he was hospitalized, he was awakened by a siren in the middle of the night and ran out into the street exclaiming, "The Russians are attacking." This claim has not been confirmed by anyone who was there that night, and was described as a fabrication by Captain George Raines, the Navy doctor in charge of Forrestal's treatment (See Hoopes and Brinkley, pp. 455-456.)." George Raines couldn't have known. The lack of witnesses proves little. Drew reported what was told to him and attacking Pearson for reporting seems pretty fishy to this old journalist. In any case, however wild the incident, Pearson was proved right--Forrestal was a nut roll wrapped in a fruitcake hidden in a nutburger (and died escaping from the nuthatch, to boot). He did believe obviously paranoid delusions and was visibly, physically weakened by lack of sleep and nutrition, either of which will make any psychiatric condition worse (except for obesity and catalepsy, of course). There is a LOT of editorializing in this and other articles featuring events in the late 40s and early 50s implying that Senator McCarthy was right and his opponents were wrong, that the government was riddled with communist spies, and so forth. In the bright light of day and supported by documents from the brief period of perestroyka, it is clear that McCarty was unjustified in his accusations. I think you may have acquired a right-wing mole who is undermining the reliability of the information in your biographical pieces by eschewing straight reportage in favor of establishing a popular basis for the basic paranoia that underlies a lot of right wing positions. The fact is that the right wing is the province of paranoids and latent homosexuals like Forrestal, McCarthy, and others. Not to diminish the contribution of Forrestal--the carrier fleet may have won World War II and dominated US hegemony during the middle of the 20th century--military and diplomatic. (It became obsolete and even a liability before Vietnam, however.) (I'm also an old sailor; in fact, I served aboard the USS Forrestal. We called it the suicide ship because I believe it to be the only warship named for a suicide, and it even attempted to destroy itself on at least two occasions.) But the guy was obviously plagued by demons that affected everyone who was close to him and he probably matured into a position where he was unable to deny them anymore (one of the more lethal of the Peter principles). The more your daily activities focus on thinking rather than carrying out orders, the harder it is to keep depression and failure out of central focus. It's why older people and retirees have such a high suicide rate, and I would argue it's why so many retirees die fairly young, shortly after retirement. I'd like to recommend that the originator of these editorial passages be found and encouraged to seek treatment from a psychiatrist. Once he is able to admit his homosexual feelings, he will probably make an effective contributor again. (I'm an old psychiatric social worker, too.) But while he is seeking detox and treatment, you should also review all biographies for entries by this mole and correct them, return them to editorial language, or delete them. 152.13.99.132 14:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Re: NPOV disputed--Citation is needed for the theory that Admiral Byrd was on a mission to locate a secret nazi base in Antarctica. Alternately this should be labelled as a "conspiracy theory". Also, why is this in the "reference" section rather than the conspiracy section immediately above? The theory of a secret nazi base is highly improbable due to the amount of funding necessary for its support and maintenance. Khalkhingol 22:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Why does the issue of Forrestal's sanity/insanity prove that he was or was not murdered. He could have been both insane and delusional as all get out and still have been murdered. Proving his sanity doesn't prove he was murdered and proving insanity doesn't prove he killed himself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.70.172.160 ( talk) 06:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to have serious POV and due weight problems in terms of Forrestal's death. Aren't all these conspiracy theories fringe views? Do any legitimate scholars or Forrestal biographers believe that his death was anything but suicide? I have, at the very least, removed some nonsense about L. Ron Hubbard's view of Forrestal's death, but even with that gone, the whole thing is seriously problematic. I'm going to remove all the cruft about conspiracy theories, and change "alleged suicide" to just "suicide" unless someone can provide some evidence that this is anything but a lunatic fringe theory. john k ( talk) 05:14, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
One of the "Majestic Papers" whether bogus or not mentions that his death was nessessary now please realize that parts of this were Blacked out and "Edited". I am now Quoting from this document.
"In protecting the security operations of MAJESTIC it has been necessary to eliminate individuals who would compromise the intelligence efforts. While distasteful [Blacked]t times, the use of [Blacked] measures have been executed. The untimely death of Secretary Forrestal, was deemed necessary and [Blacked]" Special:Contributions/ ( talk) 19:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I had understood that Forrestal's depression was related to the newly formed USAF claiming that because of its strategic bombers that the Navy should be reduced or eliminated much like proponents of air to air missiles said that machine guns on aircraft were no longer necessary. I thought that a vote was taken in congress and by only one vote was the Navy kept as a major part of the armed forces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.11.176.78 ( talk) 16:19, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Why is there any reference to conspiracy theories? WP already offers objective evidence that Forrestal was personally subjected to discrete campaigns of harassment: The article evidences "outright fabrication" against him- and an opinion from US ambassador to Israel James G. McDonald that "attacks" [plural] on Forrestal were "unjustifiable", "persistent and venomous" and "among the ugliest example... of politicians...[designing] to destroy public servants".
This article offers no theories which allege any conspiracy.
Objectively it better serves the spirit of all WP -and of true "public service" to investigate the nature of Ambassador McDonald's allegations. OTOH nebulous, prejudicial terms regarding Forrestal's response to this political intrigue around him serve only to continue a hostility against, and ridicule of this powerful + intelligent, yet principled person.
Which interests pursue this slander after 60 years?... Hilarleo Hey,L.E.O. 08:31, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Lets play a game. It's called "Ockham's Razor vs. The Lunatic Fringe on Wikipedia"
Established, undeniable facts: a famous public servant and military man undergoes vast stress, strain and media harassment while working 18-hour days in a highly controversial public job, culminating in an embarrassing public dismissal from the position that has defined his entire existence for the last 2 years. He immediately falls into a "strange daze", is diagnosed with acute stress-induced reactive depression and is hospitalized in the locked psychiatric ward of one of the nation's top military hospitals under the care of a team of psychiatrists. At some point during his treatment for acute depression in the locked psychiatric ward of this famous military hospital, he ends up dead, having plummeted from the window of his 16th story room in his bathrobe.
Now that we've got the facts out of the way, pick which one of these two follow up options represents Ockham's Razor and which represents some combination of the Wikipedia Zionist/UFO/Communist/Majestic 12 lunatic fringe that needs to be driven off this project with flamethrowers and roach spray:
Option 1: The aforementioned man, like many sufferers of severe depression who require hospitalization in a locked ward and constant supervision for their own safety, committed suicide by the means available (an unlocked window in a tall building) when the opportunity (a temporary lack of constant supervision) presented itself. The various evidentiary details surrounding this act should be reviewed carefully, but cannot be considered prima facie evidence of conspiracy, murder or other foul play so long as more reasonable explanations for their presence also exist.
Option 2: The Israelis (potentially working on behalf of Majestic 12) infiltrated a locked psych ward in the nation's biggest military hospital and murdered the aforementioned man to shut him up, because he knew too much about the international Jewish/UFO conspiracy. They then bribed/mind-erased hundreds of Congressmen, Senators, psychiatrists and naval officers using their Jew golds/alien mind-erasers, but left obvious forensic evidence for later-day investigators to find, knowing that they would be ignored and mocked as fringe lunatics by the Jew/alien mind slaves who feed America their truth. This option is equally as likely as the option he committed suicide, and should be presented that way in the article; disagreement by citing WP:UNDUE is prima facie evidence that the objector is a Jew-alien mind slave and should be treated thusly. Court Appointed Shrub ( talk) 04:06, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I've changed the subsection "Assassination allegations" to "Assassination theories", because there is only theory, no allegation. An allegation is a claim of a fact, although not immediately provided with proof. That being said - the assassination is everything but a fact - it is conjecture and theory. Wikipedia is a place for facts and the subsection is clearly intended to push the reader to the conclusion that assassination is not only possible, but also likely. That is my view a violation for the very purpose of Wikipedia. On a personal note: I am of a mind to remove the subsection entirely, because it clearly belongs in the bin with other conspiracy theories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cadoras ( talk • contribs) 14:35, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
I also removed the suicide/foul play theorems from the introductory text. It simply does not belong there, if you want to include mention of the theory, it should be as subsection of the cause of death, not in the poor man's introductory text. It is only acceptable if the cause of death is defining of the character, like for example Robert Budd Dwyer. But that is not the case here.
How about instead of facts we simply ask questions? How is a 16th floor window left open in an ASYLUM with a potentially suicidal STATESMAN left open? The open window assume that the doctors, guards, and family are all completely incompetent, ignorant, and unprofessional?
I agree that conspiracy 'theories' should not be stated as fact, but let me remind you that as a scientist ALL FACTS are theories, we simply call them FACTS or LAWS until a better Theory comes along. After all, the world is still FLAT isn't it? Careful with your answer, it might get your burned at the stake.
My removal of the following passage has been reversed because it wasn't talked about here first: If Forrestal's [work], according to some intelligence sources, then he could not scribble the word 'nightingale' in the poem because it was the code name of the Ukrainian Nazi elite unit Nachtigall Brigade which Forrestal had helped to smuggle to the United States to supplant Kim Philby's failed ABN (Anti Bolshevik Nationals), an MI6 Soviet émigré fascist group." I said it sounded like nonsense. Doesn't it? What sense does it make? At the very least, it's far from the heart of the matter. I also removed the juxtaposing of "conspiracy theories"to "legitimate concerns." This suggests that all theories of conspiracy are always illegitimate, which we know is far from the case. "Conspiracy theory" is typically used pejoratively to mean any conclusion that differs from the official government conclusion. Using that definition even, the assumption lying behind the statement seems to be that the government concluded that Forrestal committed suicide. Go back and read the last word on the death, the conclusion of the Willcutts Report. It left completely open the question of responsibility for Forrestal's fall from the window. ˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by StuartHedrick ( talk • contribs) 14:41, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Since Forrestal most likely committed suicide, is it right to put Defenestration category here? 5.1.21.254 ( talk) 11:04, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
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