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Would anyone object if I moved James Barry (woman) to James Barry (surgeon)?
On the disambig page for James Barry, this person is listed as a surgeon, and according to this article, "Barry was accepted into the Edinburgh University as a 'literary and medical student' in 1809 and qualified with a Medical Doctorate in 1812. " So Barry legitimately was a surgeon - and quite a good one, too, according to the article.
Yes, I know the fact that Barry was physically female may very well be what made Barry notable, but disambiguating Barry by physical gender, instead of profession, makes me a little queasy. It strikes me as a little demeaning.
I do not presume to know Barry's motivations for passing as a man - be it in order to become a surgeon in a time when women could not become one, or if Barry was what we today would call a transgender male - but Barry clearly was not interested in identifying as a woman, and as such, I think we should respect the good doctor's wishes.
In short, I suspect that James Barry would probably rather be remembered as a surgeon than as a woman.
Kevyn 00:23, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps a reference to Pope Joan is in place? // Liftarn
I found an identical copy of this article at http://experts.about.com/e/j/ja/James_Barry_(surgeon).htm (at least prior to my editing on it). No attribution to Wikipedia is present - after reading this talk page, it appears that the Wikipedia entry was copied word for word (and picture for picture) without attribution. DavidDouthitt ( Talk) 09:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I recently read an article which was carried in Edinburgh's main evening paper, Edinburgh Evening News, and also a weekly, the Edinburgh Herald and Post, available here, which takes a pretty radically different view to the one in this Wikipedia article. These articles make (cited) claims that some senior bodies in the Edinburgh medical profession want to recognise the achievements of someone they very definitely class as a woman in disguise. It's a good enough reference to make some substantial comments about whether Barry was in fact simply a woman trying to get on in a man's world, and not a hermaphrodite as is implied by the present WP article. I don't want to make sweeping changes without some discussion here first, but it seems like the article needs a very substantial re-write to better allow for the fact that the details are questionable. – Kieran T ( talk) 14:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Would it perhaps be possible, to put the picture of Barry into the commons? I have translated the article into German and would like to put the picture in, but am afraid, I am not so good to make the transition of the picture myself. Thanks! Anne-theater 01:43, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the word "hermaphrodite" to "intersexed" as it is more PC as well as more accurate. Here is a quote from the Wikipedia article, "Intersexed", discussing the use and meaning of the two words:
"The terms hermaphrodite and pseudohermaphrodite, introduced in the 19th century, are now considered problematic as hermaphrodism refers to people who are both completely male and completely female, something not possible.[4] The phrase 'ambiguous genitalia' refers specifically to genital appearance, but not all intersex conditions result in atypical genital appearance."
142.151.166.169 ( talk) 18:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't like saying that Barry was "assigned female". It seems to assume a conscious decision by the parents and/or physician, and we don't know that to be true. Applying the 21st century notion that sex is "assigned" seems inappropriate in describing an 18th century birth, that (in great probability) was simply a matter of a physician accepting the sex presented by the subject's appearance. Furthermore, using this "assigned at birth" phrasing mischaracterizes the question. What's unknown and debated is what sex Barry was throughout life, not merely the subject's sex at birth. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 01:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
And SparsityProblem is back at the POV-pushing language. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 21:41, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I think that the suggestion that James Barry was transgender is frankly ridiculous. While it has always been possible, and relatively easy to remove the male sexual organs from a male person, making a female more masculine is a more dificult task. How does one suppose that Barry may have been transgender into a man. Or is the suggestion here that a previously male barry, who chose to live as a male all his life, was actually transgender to a female, but continued to live as a male. Most unlikely. Can I suggest that the "transgender" line is removed.
I don't have the references to hand, but it would seem that to suggest that Barry was anything other than a perfectly normal female is incorrect.
The evidence to support that Barry was simply a female in male attire are:-
Barry appears to have mmade the decision to become a surgeon while still in her teens. There was no opening for a girl to train in such a field. If her ambition led her in that direction, then to disguise herself as a boy was the only option. The crucial matter here is that she was first and foremost a surgeon. Not first and foremost a "cross-dresser", an hermaphrodite or a transgender person. What we understand for certain about Barry is her lifelong dedication to saving lives and limbs. -- Amandajm 10:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Alice ( talk) 14:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
This person isn't cisgender; they're transgender or possibly intersex. Asserting that they're cisgender because he didn't have access to modern trans medicine isn't a reasoned assertion. The pronoun use on this article is shameful. HE referred to himself as a HE and erasing his life's gender expression and identity is an untenable position to take. Ehipassiko ( talk) 18:50, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
I removed the ridiculous statement that Barry "was of uncertain gender". Because being of "uncertain gender" means that, on examination, it is impossible to tell whether a person is male or female. There is no evidence whatsoever to support a suggestion that Barry's gender, upon examination, appeared ambiguous. It is not the same thing as saying that Barry's gender is not known.
Historically it is well documented and understood that due to patriarchal cultural ideas on sex roles that females were excluded from roles deemed only suitable for males; it is also well documented and understood that this caused women throughout history to pretend to be male in order to pursue roles they otherwise would not be allowed to. There is no evidence to support that these women were suffering from gender dysphoria, if we are going to write historical facts about women, we need to keep to the historically understood factors that caused women to disguise themselves as men. Keep subjective and biased transpolitics, especially those that are mere conjecture, out of biographies that are based on facts and the understood and well establish sociological contexts of their time periods. Celestialtellurian ( talk) 07:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Hi Vashti, The neutral point of view policy is not being maintained in the majority of this articles edit history, those editing are placing biased view points from an unscientific ideology into a historical article for women's history. There is ongoing issues with transactivists editing the pages of women from history who posed as men, and with subjective bias, editing these historical facts to support a modern issue. This is not neutral and this needs to be addressed. This whole discussion is riddled with the transpolitics in case you had not noticed. Celestialtellurian ( talk) 19:00, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
He identified as a gender that differs from the one he was assigned at birth. That's transgender. It doesn't really matter if he did it for career reasons, during his lifetime he lived the life of a trans man, and never looked back. The reason for being transgender does not factor into the validity of someone's gender identity. The idea that he might have done it purely for career reasons is frankly irrelevant if we are trying to figure out if he was trans or not. You don't have to be trans "for the right reasons". If you want to claim that he was not a trans man, you are going to have to supply sufficient evidence to the contrary. CutieMar ( talk) 13:40, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
I have removed the words "Possibly Intersex" from this article, because I have studied this person in depth and have never encountered any suggestion anywhere but in this Wikipedia article that he may have been intersex. Indeed, the primary sources in this very article describe his sex as "perfectly female" and imply that he may have been pregnant. With people who are intersex, infertility is often a problem. I would request that intersex not be added to this article again without some form of evidence being provided, as the claim is quite extraordinary, and will thus require proof. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.238.162.249 ( talk) 06:16, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
there is a Category for Category:Female_wartime_cross-dressers which is a sub category of Category:Female-to-male_cross-dressers. Might James Barry be categorized in some new Category "Female-to-male impersonators" to sit between the two? Bogger ( talk) 16:37, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
The new book: du Preez, Michael; Dronfield, Jeremy (2016), Dr James Barry: A Woman Ahead of Her Time, London: Oneworld Publications, ISBN 978-1780748313 is a most carefully researched piece of work that cites very many sound sources. It provides just the sort of reliable source that is appropriate to Wikipedia articles. The existing article uses a source by du Preez that is behind a paywall and so is a less suitable source. As regards the sex, it is a matter of biology and du Preez's evidence is that there was no ambiguity at birth, nor until the deception was started in late teen years.-- TedColes ( talk) 19:44, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
(relocated from my talk page)
Hello, I noticed in your edit on
James Barry (surgeon) that your changed the wording from "female assigned at birth" to "born female" and stated that FAAB pushes a POV with contrived phrasing. I must take issue with this as the phrasing does not automatically endorse the idea that trans people are born into their self-identified sex, it merely describes what the doctor pronounced the infant to be without bias.
Asarelah (
talk)
00:08, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
I am seeking a consensus as to whether "assigned female at birth" is the appropriate phrase to use in this article. My own view is that it is not, for the following reasons.
I suggest, therefore that the article should simply say that Dr James Barry was born a woman. -- TedColes ( talk) 18:59, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
I think “assigned” is the only possible neutral choice - theories that Barry may have been intersex are not simply based on him living as a man (reference article source 4 and the entire final chapter of Holmes' Scanty Particulars, for example). As such, stating that he was born female as if it is a fact violates neutral point of view. "Assigned male/female" is a neutral phrase which somewhat highlights the birth assignment as a point of interest, because it is commonly used when discussing subjects like this one which involve gender variance, but does not necessarily imply any delay or ambiguity. Highlighting the birth assignment is appropriate here because Barry was assigned female at birth and assigned male at death, bringing these assignations into particular relevance for the article. If we do accept Barry being XX female as a fact which should be stated, then the correct alternative is “born female” (not “born a woman”), but I think under the circumstances and article guidelines a theory-neutral phrase is preferable. Wilderwill ( talk) 18:49, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Okay, what do we have? We have a woman who had a baby and who probably had another heterosexual affair. For economic reasons she needed a decent career and chose medicine, but given that a career in medicine was closed to women, she was compelled to masquerade as a man in order to qualify. She didn't physically make a very convincing man, so in order to be accepted as one she had to out-macho the guys, hence the duel etc. But given the fundamental fact that she was born and died female and only masqueraded as a man out of expediency, the feminine pronouns should be used throughout. Awien ( talk) 19:16, 5 April 2017 (UTC) (adds) And of course hoped to be able to practise openly as a woman in Venezuela after the revolution, except that the revolution failed. Awien ( talk) 14:56, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
_________________________ the refs below don't belong to my comment ____________________ Awien ( talk) 15:00, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
There has obviously already been some discussion of this, but can I ask what the evidence that Barry was transgender, and not merely a woman living as a man as e.g. Joan of Arc did, is? It seems to be missing from the article. Vashti ( talk) 09:06, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Random drive-by opinion: I agree with the above reasoning to use "she" for the episodes in life Dr. Barry presented female, and "he" for those when he presented male. "They" as a definite singular pronoun is a very recent development and IMO inappropriate for the subject of this article, as it is a likely bet Dr. Barry would have neither desired nor accepted its use. Using they/them/their would also require carefully editing the entire text to eliminate ambiguity as to which party or parties the term refers to in each instance; since that was not done, the article is something of an unreadable hash at the moment. -- Threephi ( talk) 08:51, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
I tried my best, but your point is valid. -- Dallas ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:21, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
References
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cite news}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
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help)
Given that so far nothing seems to be mitigating the issue of ongoing pronoun wars, I've looked into the way other articles with similar problems have approached this issue. One particularly useful example is the article about the Chevalier d'Éon, which presents a similar issue to Barry (born one gender, lived most of their life as the other, editor disagreement over appropriate pronouns). The matter has been extensively discussed on the talk page for that article and I recommend interested parties read it, but I think the solution arrived at of disregarding pronouns altogether works well and reads more naturally than the use of neutral "they" which was briefly attempted in this one. I'd like to suggest that this article employ this existing, well-discussed precedent with the same explanatory note at the top of the article, in order to prevent further arguments over Barry's identity in the Talk page and the repeated changing of the article pronouns (otherwise, both are likely to continue indefinitely). ETA: I've edited the introductory section of the article to demonstrate how this works when the right phrasing is used. Wilderwill ( talk) 21:09, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I think that the current article does an okay job of respecting what certainly appears to have been Barry's gender identity, but like I noted with this edit, I find it odd that the lead states "woman" for the following part: "Barry is considered the first medically qualified British woman, preceding Elizabeth Garrett Anderson by over 50 years." This is only because the rest of the article avoids calling Barry a woman unless it's quoting a person. I know that the text states "is considered," but it doesn't help much. I also don't see that this statement is sourced lower. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 22:04, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
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We have a date of birth of 9 November 1795 in the opening line and infobox (unsupported by citations in either location). In the body of the article we have a range of possible years, with citations, 1789, 1792, 1795 and 1799. Should we be quite so definite in lead and IB if there is dispute in the body? If we are, there should probably be an explanatory footnote to explain why this date takes precedence, and the full date should be supported by a citation somewhere in the article. - SchroCat ( talk) 07:06, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
It's certainly not helping anyone for this article to be in neither the female nor the trans categories. Can I get support for including in both? – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 20:27, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
It is by no means established that Barry was a woman. From the new Dictionary of Canadian Biography bio,
The woman that dressed and washed Barry's body after her death said she was a 'perfect woman'. Dismissing this woman as a 'charwoman' is kinda misogynistic TBH. I imagine she should know. The fact that Barry HAD to present as a man in order to qualify as a doctor is huge. Her womanhood is entirely relevant. If we pretend she was actually a man, we erase that enormous effort. 2A00:23C5:4503:A200:5123:C899:783F:964C ( talk) 13:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC) Joolz
I think it is important to stick to the facts that are known and established when writing a biography, as well as sticking to scientific facts regarding biology. Sex is biological and is determined by chromosomes which translates physiologically into male and female reproductive organs and other physiological features. Gender is a social construct that differs from culture to culture and is a set of social rules that dictate what roles males and female can perform within a society. James Barry's sex was determined at death as female, determined at birth as female, and correspondence has provided evidence of how she was to get into medical school as a woman by posing as a man. These are the historical and scientific facts, let's stick to them. Celestialtellurian ( talk) 07:52, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
I have removed the photo of Barry used in the infobox, as there is strong evidence that the image used is in fact of a Joseph Barry, a South African businessman. The image is used multiple times on the website of Mr Barry's former business, which now appears to be run by his descendants - see [2]. In the interests of accuracy, I felt it best to remove the image. I have replaced with another image from the body of the article. Whilst there is a photograph which has been accurately recorded as Barry in the article, I am not sure if it would need to be trimmed for an infobox, and it would seem a pity to lose the context that the whole image provides. I will leave others to decide which of the two works best. AutumnKing ( talk) 14:29, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
Regarding
[3] and other edits today: IMO, replacing This caused some controversy, as Levy refers to Dr. Barry as "she" and a "heroine"
with The novel refers to Dr. Barry as "he," "she" and a "hero", causing controversy among some trans activists who insist that exclusively male pronouns be used to describe Barry
is a bad approach, for a number of reasons. First of all, the controversy is, as the first sentence says, over the use of "she" etc, not the existence of other pronouns. Attributing the controversy exclusively to "trans activists" is also inaccurate. A better presentation might be to leave the existing sentence, and then add that Levy has defended the book by saying it also uses "he" and "I", iff that can be better sourced—but Bustle is a low-quality source (there is a general discussion happening about that on the sourcing noticeboard as we speak), even when the URL is not misspelled. And although I would've thought that if Bustle's quotation of Levy was real and important—since another reason we need sourcing is to establish that something is important enough to include—then it would be possible to find in other sources, in point of fact I haven't found it anywhere else.
-sche (
talk)
03:40, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
It seems like a good compromise in theory but using "Barry" instead of "he" is just trying to sweep his identity under the rug. Don't give in to the transphobes ComradeStalin48 ( talk) 04:23, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
Replacing gendered pronouns with "Barry" is trans erasure. He was a man and the Wikipedia article should reflect that. People saying he only presented himself as male for career purposes are missing the fact that he identified as a man in his personal life as well ComradeStalin48 ( talk) 07:00, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Would anyone object if I moved James Barry (woman) to James Barry (surgeon)?
On the disambig page for James Barry, this person is listed as a surgeon, and according to this article, "Barry was accepted into the Edinburgh University as a 'literary and medical student' in 1809 and qualified with a Medical Doctorate in 1812. " So Barry legitimately was a surgeon - and quite a good one, too, according to the article.
Yes, I know the fact that Barry was physically female may very well be what made Barry notable, but disambiguating Barry by physical gender, instead of profession, makes me a little queasy. It strikes me as a little demeaning.
I do not presume to know Barry's motivations for passing as a man - be it in order to become a surgeon in a time when women could not become one, or if Barry was what we today would call a transgender male - but Barry clearly was not interested in identifying as a woman, and as such, I think we should respect the good doctor's wishes.
In short, I suspect that James Barry would probably rather be remembered as a surgeon than as a woman.
Kevyn 00:23, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps a reference to Pope Joan is in place? // Liftarn
I found an identical copy of this article at http://experts.about.com/e/j/ja/James_Barry_(surgeon).htm (at least prior to my editing on it). No attribution to Wikipedia is present - after reading this talk page, it appears that the Wikipedia entry was copied word for word (and picture for picture) without attribution. DavidDouthitt ( Talk) 09:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I recently read an article which was carried in Edinburgh's main evening paper, Edinburgh Evening News, and also a weekly, the Edinburgh Herald and Post, available here, which takes a pretty radically different view to the one in this Wikipedia article. These articles make (cited) claims that some senior bodies in the Edinburgh medical profession want to recognise the achievements of someone they very definitely class as a woman in disguise. It's a good enough reference to make some substantial comments about whether Barry was in fact simply a woman trying to get on in a man's world, and not a hermaphrodite as is implied by the present WP article. I don't want to make sweeping changes without some discussion here first, but it seems like the article needs a very substantial re-write to better allow for the fact that the details are questionable. – Kieran T ( talk) 14:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Would it perhaps be possible, to put the picture of Barry into the commons? I have translated the article into German and would like to put the picture in, but am afraid, I am not so good to make the transition of the picture myself. Thanks! Anne-theater 01:43, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the word "hermaphrodite" to "intersexed" as it is more PC as well as more accurate. Here is a quote from the Wikipedia article, "Intersexed", discussing the use and meaning of the two words:
"The terms hermaphrodite and pseudohermaphrodite, introduced in the 19th century, are now considered problematic as hermaphrodism refers to people who are both completely male and completely female, something not possible.[4] The phrase 'ambiguous genitalia' refers specifically to genital appearance, but not all intersex conditions result in atypical genital appearance."
142.151.166.169 ( talk) 18:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't like saying that Barry was "assigned female". It seems to assume a conscious decision by the parents and/or physician, and we don't know that to be true. Applying the 21st century notion that sex is "assigned" seems inappropriate in describing an 18th century birth, that (in great probability) was simply a matter of a physician accepting the sex presented by the subject's appearance. Furthermore, using this "assigned at birth" phrasing mischaracterizes the question. What's unknown and debated is what sex Barry was throughout life, not merely the subject's sex at birth. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 01:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
And SparsityProblem is back at the POV-pushing language. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 21:41, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I think that the suggestion that James Barry was transgender is frankly ridiculous. While it has always been possible, and relatively easy to remove the male sexual organs from a male person, making a female more masculine is a more dificult task. How does one suppose that Barry may have been transgender into a man. Or is the suggestion here that a previously male barry, who chose to live as a male all his life, was actually transgender to a female, but continued to live as a male. Most unlikely. Can I suggest that the "transgender" line is removed.
I don't have the references to hand, but it would seem that to suggest that Barry was anything other than a perfectly normal female is incorrect.
The evidence to support that Barry was simply a female in male attire are:-
Barry appears to have mmade the decision to become a surgeon while still in her teens. There was no opening for a girl to train in such a field. If her ambition led her in that direction, then to disguise herself as a boy was the only option. The crucial matter here is that she was first and foremost a surgeon. Not first and foremost a "cross-dresser", an hermaphrodite or a transgender person. What we understand for certain about Barry is her lifelong dedication to saving lives and limbs. -- Amandajm 10:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Alice ( talk) 14:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
This person isn't cisgender; they're transgender or possibly intersex. Asserting that they're cisgender because he didn't have access to modern trans medicine isn't a reasoned assertion. The pronoun use on this article is shameful. HE referred to himself as a HE and erasing his life's gender expression and identity is an untenable position to take. Ehipassiko ( talk) 18:50, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
I removed the ridiculous statement that Barry "was of uncertain gender". Because being of "uncertain gender" means that, on examination, it is impossible to tell whether a person is male or female. There is no evidence whatsoever to support a suggestion that Barry's gender, upon examination, appeared ambiguous. It is not the same thing as saying that Barry's gender is not known.
Historically it is well documented and understood that due to patriarchal cultural ideas on sex roles that females were excluded from roles deemed only suitable for males; it is also well documented and understood that this caused women throughout history to pretend to be male in order to pursue roles they otherwise would not be allowed to. There is no evidence to support that these women were suffering from gender dysphoria, if we are going to write historical facts about women, we need to keep to the historically understood factors that caused women to disguise themselves as men. Keep subjective and biased transpolitics, especially those that are mere conjecture, out of biographies that are based on facts and the understood and well establish sociological contexts of their time periods. Celestialtellurian ( talk) 07:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Hi Vashti, The neutral point of view policy is not being maintained in the majority of this articles edit history, those editing are placing biased view points from an unscientific ideology into a historical article for women's history. There is ongoing issues with transactivists editing the pages of women from history who posed as men, and with subjective bias, editing these historical facts to support a modern issue. This is not neutral and this needs to be addressed. This whole discussion is riddled with the transpolitics in case you had not noticed. Celestialtellurian ( talk) 19:00, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
He identified as a gender that differs from the one he was assigned at birth. That's transgender. It doesn't really matter if he did it for career reasons, during his lifetime he lived the life of a trans man, and never looked back. The reason for being transgender does not factor into the validity of someone's gender identity. The idea that he might have done it purely for career reasons is frankly irrelevant if we are trying to figure out if he was trans or not. You don't have to be trans "for the right reasons". If you want to claim that he was not a trans man, you are going to have to supply sufficient evidence to the contrary. CutieMar ( talk) 13:40, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
I have removed the words "Possibly Intersex" from this article, because I have studied this person in depth and have never encountered any suggestion anywhere but in this Wikipedia article that he may have been intersex. Indeed, the primary sources in this very article describe his sex as "perfectly female" and imply that he may have been pregnant. With people who are intersex, infertility is often a problem. I would request that intersex not be added to this article again without some form of evidence being provided, as the claim is quite extraordinary, and will thus require proof. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.238.162.249 ( talk) 06:16, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
there is a Category for Category:Female_wartime_cross-dressers which is a sub category of Category:Female-to-male_cross-dressers. Might James Barry be categorized in some new Category "Female-to-male impersonators" to sit between the two? Bogger ( talk) 16:37, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
The new book: du Preez, Michael; Dronfield, Jeremy (2016), Dr James Barry: A Woman Ahead of Her Time, London: Oneworld Publications, ISBN 978-1780748313 is a most carefully researched piece of work that cites very many sound sources. It provides just the sort of reliable source that is appropriate to Wikipedia articles. The existing article uses a source by du Preez that is behind a paywall and so is a less suitable source. As regards the sex, it is a matter of biology and du Preez's evidence is that there was no ambiguity at birth, nor until the deception was started in late teen years.-- TedColes ( talk) 19:44, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
(relocated from my talk page)
Hello, I noticed in your edit on
James Barry (surgeon) that your changed the wording from "female assigned at birth" to "born female" and stated that FAAB pushes a POV with contrived phrasing. I must take issue with this as the phrasing does not automatically endorse the idea that trans people are born into their self-identified sex, it merely describes what the doctor pronounced the infant to be without bias.
Asarelah (
talk)
00:08, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
I am seeking a consensus as to whether "assigned female at birth" is the appropriate phrase to use in this article. My own view is that it is not, for the following reasons.
I suggest, therefore that the article should simply say that Dr James Barry was born a woman. -- TedColes ( talk) 18:59, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
I think “assigned” is the only possible neutral choice - theories that Barry may have been intersex are not simply based on him living as a man (reference article source 4 and the entire final chapter of Holmes' Scanty Particulars, for example). As such, stating that he was born female as if it is a fact violates neutral point of view. "Assigned male/female" is a neutral phrase which somewhat highlights the birth assignment as a point of interest, because it is commonly used when discussing subjects like this one which involve gender variance, but does not necessarily imply any delay or ambiguity. Highlighting the birth assignment is appropriate here because Barry was assigned female at birth and assigned male at death, bringing these assignations into particular relevance for the article. If we do accept Barry being XX female as a fact which should be stated, then the correct alternative is “born female” (not “born a woman”), but I think under the circumstances and article guidelines a theory-neutral phrase is preferable. Wilderwill ( talk) 18:49, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Okay, what do we have? We have a woman who had a baby and who probably had another heterosexual affair. For economic reasons she needed a decent career and chose medicine, but given that a career in medicine was closed to women, she was compelled to masquerade as a man in order to qualify. She didn't physically make a very convincing man, so in order to be accepted as one she had to out-macho the guys, hence the duel etc. But given the fundamental fact that she was born and died female and only masqueraded as a man out of expediency, the feminine pronouns should be used throughout. Awien ( talk) 19:16, 5 April 2017 (UTC) (adds) And of course hoped to be able to practise openly as a woman in Venezuela after the revolution, except that the revolution failed. Awien ( talk) 14:56, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
_________________________ the refs below don't belong to my comment ____________________ Awien ( talk) 15:00, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
There has obviously already been some discussion of this, but can I ask what the evidence that Barry was transgender, and not merely a woman living as a man as e.g. Joan of Arc did, is? It seems to be missing from the article. Vashti ( talk) 09:06, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Random drive-by opinion: I agree with the above reasoning to use "she" for the episodes in life Dr. Barry presented female, and "he" for those when he presented male. "They" as a definite singular pronoun is a very recent development and IMO inappropriate for the subject of this article, as it is a likely bet Dr. Barry would have neither desired nor accepted its use. Using they/them/their would also require carefully editing the entire text to eliminate ambiguity as to which party or parties the term refers to in each instance; since that was not done, the article is something of an unreadable hash at the moment. -- Threephi ( talk) 08:51, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
I tried my best, but your point is valid. -- Dallas ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:21, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
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Given that so far nothing seems to be mitigating the issue of ongoing pronoun wars, I've looked into the way other articles with similar problems have approached this issue. One particularly useful example is the article about the Chevalier d'Éon, which presents a similar issue to Barry (born one gender, lived most of their life as the other, editor disagreement over appropriate pronouns). The matter has been extensively discussed on the talk page for that article and I recommend interested parties read it, but I think the solution arrived at of disregarding pronouns altogether works well and reads more naturally than the use of neutral "they" which was briefly attempted in this one. I'd like to suggest that this article employ this existing, well-discussed precedent with the same explanatory note at the top of the article, in order to prevent further arguments over Barry's identity in the Talk page and the repeated changing of the article pronouns (otherwise, both are likely to continue indefinitely). ETA: I've edited the introductory section of the article to demonstrate how this works when the right phrasing is used. Wilderwill ( talk) 21:09, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I think that the current article does an okay job of respecting what certainly appears to have been Barry's gender identity, but like I noted with this edit, I find it odd that the lead states "woman" for the following part: "Barry is considered the first medically qualified British woman, preceding Elizabeth Garrett Anderson by over 50 years." This is only because the rest of the article avoids calling Barry a woman unless it's quoting a person. I know that the text states "is considered," but it doesn't help much. I also don't see that this statement is sourced lower. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 22:04, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
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We have a date of birth of 9 November 1795 in the opening line and infobox (unsupported by citations in either location). In the body of the article we have a range of possible years, with citations, 1789, 1792, 1795 and 1799. Should we be quite so definite in lead and IB if there is dispute in the body? If we are, there should probably be an explanatory footnote to explain why this date takes precedence, and the full date should be supported by a citation somewhere in the article. - SchroCat ( talk) 07:06, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
It's certainly not helping anyone for this article to be in neither the female nor the trans categories. Can I get support for including in both? – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 20:27, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
It is by no means established that Barry was a woman. From the new Dictionary of Canadian Biography bio,
The woman that dressed and washed Barry's body after her death said she was a 'perfect woman'. Dismissing this woman as a 'charwoman' is kinda misogynistic TBH. I imagine she should know. The fact that Barry HAD to present as a man in order to qualify as a doctor is huge. Her womanhood is entirely relevant. If we pretend she was actually a man, we erase that enormous effort. 2A00:23C5:4503:A200:5123:C899:783F:964C ( talk) 13:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC) Joolz
I think it is important to stick to the facts that are known and established when writing a biography, as well as sticking to scientific facts regarding biology. Sex is biological and is determined by chromosomes which translates physiologically into male and female reproductive organs and other physiological features. Gender is a social construct that differs from culture to culture and is a set of social rules that dictate what roles males and female can perform within a society. James Barry's sex was determined at death as female, determined at birth as female, and correspondence has provided evidence of how she was to get into medical school as a woman by posing as a man. These are the historical and scientific facts, let's stick to them. Celestialtellurian ( talk) 07:52, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
I have removed the photo of Barry used in the infobox, as there is strong evidence that the image used is in fact of a Joseph Barry, a South African businessman. The image is used multiple times on the website of Mr Barry's former business, which now appears to be run by his descendants - see [2]. In the interests of accuracy, I felt it best to remove the image. I have replaced with another image from the body of the article. Whilst there is a photograph which has been accurately recorded as Barry in the article, I am not sure if it would need to be trimmed for an infobox, and it would seem a pity to lose the context that the whole image provides. I will leave others to decide which of the two works best. AutumnKing ( talk) 14:29, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
Regarding
[3] and other edits today: IMO, replacing This caused some controversy, as Levy refers to Dr. Barry as "she" and a "heroine"
with The novel refers to Dr. Barry as "he," "she" and a "hero", causing controversy among some trans activists who insist that exclusively male pronouns be used to describe Barry
is a bad approach, for a number of reasons. First of all, the controversy is, as the first sentence says, over the use of "she" etc, not the existence of other pronouns. Attributing the controversy exclusively to "trans activists" is also inaccurate. A better presentation might be to leave the existing sentence, and then add that Levy has defended the book by saying it also uses "he" and "I", iff that can be better sourced—but Bustle is a low-quality source (there is a general discussion happening about that on the sourcing noticeboard as we speak), even when the URL is not misspelled. And although I would've thought that if Bustle's quotation of Levy was real and important—since another reason we need sourcing is to establish that something is important enough to include—then it would be possible to find in other sources, in point of fact I haven't found it anywhere else.
-sche (
talk)
03:40, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
It seems like a good compromise in theory but using "Barry" instead of "he" is just trying to sweep his identity under the rug. Don't give in to the transphobes ComradeStalin48 ( talk) 04:23, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
Replacing gendered pronouns with "Barry" is trans erasure. He was a man and the Wikipedia article should reflect that. People saying he only presented himself as male for career purposes are missing the fact that he identified as a man in his personal life as well ComradeStalin48 ( talk) 07:00, 30 April 2020 (UTC)