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Archive 1 |
About Illyric language. See this link.
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/4689/grabovac.htm, about fra Filip Grabovac, the author of Cvit razgovora naroda i jezika iliričkoga aliti arvackoga (...Illyric or Croat).
Or this title, from the the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result
[1].
A dictionary by Andrija Jambrešić and Franjo Sušnik.
Title is : Lexicon Latinum interpretatione Illyrica, Germanica et Hungarica locuples : in usum potissimum studiosae juventutis / digestum ab Andrea Jambressich, Societatis Jesu sacerdote, Croata Zagoriensi Impresum: Zagrabi[ae] : Typis Academicis Societatis Jesu, [per A. W. Wesseli] , 1742 .
Kubura 12:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's a link to the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result
[2].
Book of the author Jakov Mikalja.
Title is Blago jezika slovinskoga illi Slovnik : u komu izgorarajuse rjeci slovinske latinski i diacki = Thesaurus linguae Illyricae sive Dictionarium Illyricum : in quo verba Illyrica Italice et Latine redduntur / labore p. Jacobi Micalia ; Grammatika talianska u kratko ili Kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik / koga slovinski upisa otac Jacov Mikaglja ... Impresum: Laureti : apud Paulum et Io. Baptistam Seraphinum , 1649 .
Kubura 12:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
From the Talk:Serbo-Croatian language:
virtually all literature written in shtokavian vernacular prior to Serbian language reformer Vuk Karadžić, ie. cca. 430 years of literary texts, belong to the Croatian linguistic and literary heritage. First major vernacular shtokavian text is "First Croatian prayer book", kept in Vatican library- date cca. 1380-1400. Then follow major authors covering Renaissance, Baroque, Classicist and Sentimental literaure: Držić, Menčetić, Gundulić, Bunić, Palmotić, Zlatarić (Dubrovnik), Kavanjin (Split, Dalmatia), Kanavelović (Korčula, Dalmatia), Divković, Posilović (Bosnia), Kačić(Dalmatia), Relković, Ivanošić, Došen (Slavonia)..
The majority of these texts are titled as works on "Illyrian" or "Slovinian"/"Slavonic" language, but they explicitly equate Illyrian with Croatian- dor instance, first major shtokavian-based dictionary, Mikalja's/Micaglia's "Thesaurus linguae illyricae", Loreto 1649. "Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata".
Further info on older Croatian lexicography can be found at
http://www.hlz.hr/eng/povijest.html
Kubura 19:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The article should be named Jakov Mikalja.
Also, I supposed which questions might arose, so I've intercepted them.
Kubura 13:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
And, again, "Serbocroatian"?
What Serbs are you talking about?
What are you doing, Giove? Playing dumb?
Ignoring and deleting my data I've posted here???
That's vandalism!
POV-ising with inserting adjective "Serbo-" where isn't any there and deleting any lines that link to Croatian language
[3] and deleting (???) the sourcenames in original Croatian
[4] (you've deleted the lines Blago jezika slovinskoga illi slovnik u komu izgovarajuse rjeci slovinske Latinski i Diacki).
Kubura 14:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
If its hard for you to click on the link that speak about Mikalja, here're the scans from the page
[5].
On the first scan
[6] you have following text, a page from Croat-Italian-Latin dictionary:
hrrivat. Hervat; Croata; Illyricus, i. Croata; ae.
hrrivaçia. Hervarska zemglja; Croatia; Illyris, dis. Illyricum, ci. Croatia, ae.
On the second scan
[7], there's the front page.
Kubura 21:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Here're few links from HAZU library.
These are Christian books of meditations and Sunday schools (katehetika).
First one is by Rayaumont, translated by Emerik Pavić. "Ogledalo temelja, vire, i zakona katolicsanskoga to jest Sveto Pismo, iliti Jezgra sviu dogagjajah Staroga, i Novoga zakona : s-tolmacsenjem svetih otaca pomissana za rassirenje boxjeg poznanstva, i razglasenje moguchstva, i dobrote privicsnjega pripovigjena, i istolmacsena / najpri u francuzki jezik po gospodinu Rayaumontu prioru od Sombrevala sloxena, a zatim nimacski primistita ; a sada u nass slavni uljudni i krasnii illyricski jezik prinessena po Ocu Fra Emeriku Pavichu, sstiocu poglavitomu svete bogoslovice u gradu Budimu, Reda S. O. Franceska, Provincie S. Ivana Capistrana. - U Budimu : Sstampano po Francesku Leopoldu Landereru, 1759.". Here're the first two pages
[8].
It says "The mirror of the foundations, faith and law of Catholicism... in French language by Rayaumont...then translated in German, and now in our civilized and beautiful illyric language by fra Emerik Pavić". Printed in Buda (now merged in Budapest) in 1759.
Second one, a book translated by the same author. "Jezgra rimskoga pravovirnoga nauka kerstjanskoga, za mladex jasnoga i glasovitoga grada Becskoga godine 1767 u nimacski jezik na svitlost dana; sada pak za spasonosno napridovanje ... u slovinski, iliti illyrcski, jali dalmatinski jezik prinessena i s-tieskom opchena ucsinjena / [preveo Emericus Pavich]. - U Budimu : sa slovi Leopolda Franceska Landerera, 1769.". Printed in Buda, in 1769. First two pages
[9].
It says "The core of Roman Catholic doctrine, for youth.... written in German, now translated in Slovinic or Illyric or Dalmatian language".
As I've said previously, Croatian language is in older sources, "Croatian, Illyric, Slovinic", but also under local names, like "Dalmatian, Slavonic...".
Kubura 08:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
@Giovanni: Please stop reverting everything. Be constructive.
Do not just change Croatian to Illyrian or Serbocroatian etc. First mentioning of Serbocroatian is in 18th century. Equality between name "Illyrian language" and "Croatian" is documented and well known, so it is not unsubstantiated. He is known by name "Mikalja" not only in Croatia, so don't refer to his name like it is only in Croatia.
@Kubura: He is definitely Italian, and Croat too. So please leave adjective "Italian" where it is.
--
Plantago 11:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Plantago, I know about the problem.
I've seen a link where it states that Jakov was born in Peschici, on peninsula of Gargano.
In fact, the link from Italian domain, Reportonline,
[10], speaks about Latino-Croat dictionary (Una storia secolare culminata nel vocabolario Latino-Croato Che i gesuiti usarono per portare la Controriforma in Croazia).
I've also seen the line "Egli si definitiva salvo di lingua, italiano di nazionalità ed originario, appunto, di Peschici".
I respect that. I don't deny that. Unless someone made a "hairdressing" of data.
Regarding the history of Croatian language, on the talk page of Republic of Dubrovnik, I wrote a bunch of text with a bunch of links to the library of HAZU, Croatian academy of sciences and arts. Some of those links contain scanned pages of the works that deal with Croatian, Illyrian, use of Croatian language in previous centuries (not just in 20th century, as one user said). But, Giovanni Giove ignored that. In fact, he said:
[11]. "Kubura's comments are false, Kubura was NEVER able to prove that Giovanni Giove's edits are wrong". Yeah, wright, starting with the language.
Kubura 07:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Where have I denied that? Or you're playing dumb again?
If you remember, I've written on the talk page of Republic of Dubrovnik: "...They (higher social classes) spoke and used Italian language, only to differ them from the serfs and other lower social classes. That is the case that existed all over Europe. ...". on 11 August 2006, 08:35.
On 13 February 2007, 12:38, I've written:"Third, Ragusean Dalmatian language is not the same as Italian language, neither belongs to the same subgroup of Romanic languages".
I just disagree with someone's overestimations of use of Italian language, as well as of presence of Italians. Do you know the information that women rarely spoke Italian?
In contemporary Croatia the Esperanto texts are also written, exclusively by highly educated people, but that doesn't make Croatia as Esperanto country.
Kubura 20:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
"Hrvatski leksikon" (edition from 1995) speaks about Mikalja as a "descendant of Croat refugees from Dalmatia, that went into refuge (into Italy) because of Ottoman advance". Kubura 20:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
On the page from Matica hrvatska (link added, text by Vladimir Horvat), the author speaks about the Croat origins of Jakov Mikalja (and explains them). Kubura 21:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
This is an article about an Italian guy called Giacamo Micaglia. The Croatian transaltion of his name is just a translation, and it was never used by the guy. His only name is Giacomo Micaglia. He can't be classified of Croat origin. Mikalija is anyway inserted (as a translation)-- Giovanni Giove 13:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
From the link
[13].
"GRAMMATIKA TALIANSKA U KRATH(!)O ILLI KRATAK NAUK ZA NAUCITTI LATINSKI JEZIK. Koga slovinski upisa Otaç Jacov Mikaglja Drusgbe Isusove. Loreto, 1649. ..."
After the preface, there's an intro to grammar Grammatika talianska u kratho illi kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik. Koga slovinski upisa Otaç Jacov Mikaglja Drusgbe Isusove". (Italian Grammar in short lines or short way to learn Latin. In Slovinic written by father Jacov Mikaglja Drusgbe Isusove).
There's a picture of that page in "Hrvatski leksikon", by the article that speaks about Jakov Mikalja.
Kubura 21:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
If you want the scan of that page, I'll do it, but I'll have to ask the authors of the lexikon, because of copyright issues. Although, I don't know if that would have any sense... you're persistently ignoring all pages with scans (that I've posted you on the talk page of Republic of Dubrovnik) that are from catalogue of library of Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts. Kubura
So, let's do some work with last Giovanni Giove amandment. Here is "Controversy" section:
Micaglia's Dictionary is often presented as a Croatian dictionary [3][4]. - By whom, and who is opposed to that, if it is "often presented"?.
The dictionary, anyway, is better described by the word Serbocroatian, because the present days ethnic groups of former Yugoslavia share the same dialects and because Micaglia collected words of different South Slavic dialects , outside the present day Croatia (mainly in Bosnia). - How he could collect words only outside present day Croatia, if he was in Dubrovnik/Ragusa, and not in Bosnia at all? Bosnian dialect is not Bosnian language, but Shtokavian dialect, spoken by many of Bosnian citizens. Who qualified you to "better describe it as Serbocroatian"? Language then is not as language now. Original research..
Futhermore the therm Illyric formerly described all the slavic dialects spoken in the Balkans, without regard of religions, and location; all these dialects were still vernacular and not already developed into a Croatian (or Serbian) national language. - Source for the claim? Do you have linguist reference of some kind for this? Original research.
That why the word Illyric shall be reffered to all the former Yugoslavian dialects; it can consequently be properly described by the therm Serbocroatian (or "Central South Slavic diasystem"). - I see what you mean. Definitely you cannot do that, even was it truth, and it didn't, because Mikalja didn't include eastern dialects and only a little of northern dialects anyhow. It appears to me that you have an idealistic approach: They all speak the common language, so let's say he belongs to everybody, forget that nationalistic quarrels. Well, that can be truth or not, but you have to prove that Illyric is equal to Serbocroatian (or "Central South Slavic diasystem"). Mikalja belongs to Croatian culture (and Italian, of course), not Serbian or Bosniak, and because of that is regarded as one of the first Croatian lexicographers. Languages develop. Do you think that Vuk Karadzic is regarded by anyone in Croatia or Serbia as lexicograph and reformer of Serbocroatian?. Unsupported claims.
After the breakdown of Jugoslavia, the therm Serborcratian has anyway became unpopular in Croatia. - Official language in Croatia was always called Croatian OR Serbian. So it was unpopular always:-) This has nothing with Mikalja. There are older works, even before Yugoslavia, and also during Yugoslavia, mentioning him as one of foundations of Croatian written literature
A similar problem regard Micaglia himself, often presented as the Croatian linguist Jakov Mikalja. Thus Micaglia himself declared to be Italian, and Mikalja is a recent translation of the Italian name. - Well, this is the claim I see from you all the time. Where is the proof? I mentioned other two official ways of writing his name, together with sources. Pronountiation is the same as Croatian name, just ortography is different. He never said he is Italian by ethnicity, but of Italian nationality - it means he is citizen of one of Italian countries (Kingdom of Naples, Italy didn't exist at that time as one country)--
Plantago 13:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's more. It's important what Mikalja had in mind when he said "Illyric".
In that very samedictionary, he explicitly declared "Illyricus" as Croat. See
[14] and
[15] and front page
[16]. I'm posting this argument for the SECOND TIME. What do you want more?
"present days ethnic groups of former Yugoslavia share the same dialects. Wrong. Read my contribution above (with the bold letters), that deal with dialects of Croats and Serbs.
Then this section "After the breakdown of Jugoslavia, the therm Serborcratian has anyway became unpopular in Croatia. - Official language in Croatia was always called Croatian OR Serbian. So it was unpopular always:-) This has nothing with Mikalja.".
Serbocroatian was never popular term in Croatia. Even during Yugoslavia. It was considered as serious provocation in Croatia (as well as among the Croats in BiH), if someone told you "Speak Serbocroatian!" or even worse version "Speak Serbian so the whole world can understand you!". Second, official language in Croatia hasn't always been called "Croatian or Serbian". Wrong. The name "Croat or Serb" was official solely in the period from 1970-1990. Any political move towards changing that made serious problem to the one who wanted that. Yugounitarist communists penalized such persons. See the talkpage
Talk:Differences_between_standard_Serbian,_Croatian_and_Bosnian#About_.22unwanted_tendencies.22_and_language_policy.
About Mikalja's ethnicity, read the article about him by Jesuit writer prof. Vladimir Horvat (he teaches on Faculty of Philosophy of Societas Jes`u in Zagreb, www.ffdi.hr) - there he explained why we should consider Mikalja as Croat; you can download it from the internet. Here's the link
[17]. Giove, there you have the link.
That scientific work wasn't written in "some book at Nowhereland, so nobody can read it or criticize it". That work was present in symposium held in Ancona (as I said above). Kubura 20:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh my good, I wasn't here for some time and what happened?!Furthermore the therm Illyric formerly described to the all the Serbocroatian and Slovenian dialects - Giove, this reference is from Illyrian movement, some centuries AFTER J.M.! Or you want to say that Slovenian is also a dialect, and it is part of S-C, because it was still vernacular at that time. Well, than add please Bulgarian too, because it was also called Illyrian sometimes. It seems that "vernacular" is your ultimate argument. Well, I have news: Dante's construct is also "vernacular" by your criteria, because it was not officially standardized until mid-1800, just like Croatian. Please learn Italian language history first.
All these dialects were still vernacular during Micalglia's time, and not already developed into a Croatian or Serbian standard language. This definition was still in use the mid of 19th century. It is interesting that in this time, the Dalmatian and the Bosnian dialects were not classified as Croatian, but as 'Servian' dialects. In fact the therm 'Croatian dialect' was referred only to the the small Kingdom of Croatia, around Zagreb - what is this? Which definition? There is no definition given. What was not classified, by whom? You gave some reference to nothing - just some links to links. So now you also mention that there IS Serbian language, and Croatian too, as separate!? Do they exist or not? I'll delete this rubbish boldly.
Did you change any article about Tzar Dusan's law, from Servian to Serbo-Croatian? No? Why? Please do it and stop playing here. -- Plantago 13:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Vladimir Horvat wrote about him.
He explained Mikalja's Croat origin in a symposium held in Ancona, when speaking about Croat Jesuits lexicographers of 17th century.
The work is:
Vladimir Horvat: I lessicografi gesuiti del Seicento tra le due sponde: Bartol Kašić - Cassius - Cassio (Pag, 1575-1650, Roma), e Jakov Mikalja - Mica(g)lia (Peschici, 1601-1654, Loreto). Homo adriaticus - identitt`a culturale e autocoscienza attraverso i secoli, Atti del convegno internazionale di studio organizzato dalla Accademia Marchigiana di Scienze e Lettere ed Arti, Ancona, 9-12 novembre 1993. Edizioni Diabasis, Reggio Emilia, 1998, str. 105.-116.
He also had an article, there's also a link on the internet; though, the text is in Croatian. This reference is from that article.
Still, I hope this'll help.
Kubura 21:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Italian books aren't good anymore? Or Ancona isn't "enough Italian"? Or the ferry that regularly links Ancona with Croatia, spoiled Ancona's validity? Kubura 22:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
BTW, Vladimir Horvat is a Jesuit, ph.D., a professor on Philosophic faculty of Societas Gesú in Zagreb.
He wrote an article in magazine "Obnovljeni život" of Philosophic faculty
[18], (Jakov Mikalja, isusovac-leksikograf 400. obljetnica rođenja (1601-1654) i 350. obljetnica tiskanja (1651) prvog hrvatskog rječnika Blago jezika slovinskoga).
Kubura 22:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Here're some other links. Some are in Croatian, but some texts contain parts in Latin or Italian, that should be helpful.
http://www.matica.hr/Kolo/kolo0301.nsf/AllWebDocs/lex ("Kolo" magazine of Matica hrvatska, Matrix croatica).
http://arhiv.slobodnadalmacija.hr/20010924/kultura.htm
http://www.matis.hr/zbornici/2002/text/du_322.htm The magazine of Croat matrix of diaspora (Matica iseljenika; I'm not so good in Latin).
http://www.hrvatskiplus.org/Default.aspx?art=34&sec=21 The site of Zagreb school of Slavistics. See how they name Jakov Mikalja.
Kubura 22:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Serbian fascists (1945. i 1995. respectively). Wanna replay, eh ?
Mir Harven 21:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh my God!.... . Harvy again fooling about irridentism :-) (it's funny that was never able to post a line fo enforce this idea
BUAAAHHHH.... the Grater Serbian Lunacy!!!!:-)))) Baby!... Mikalja was *invented* in XX century as *transation* of the Italian name. That if you like or not. Now I go ... I've to roast a Croatian child. YUMMMIII!--
Giovanni Giove 22:04, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I've told you, on the second page of his dictionary, it uses name in Croatian, written in the ortography from those times.
Do you read the references I've mentioned at all?!?
Please, answer me.
Don't say: "that's vandalism", "I'll report you to admins", "that's falsificiation", "that's not a trustable source". That's not an answer.
Especially the racist remarks like "deliberate falsification that Croats do against Italian personalities of Dalmatia".
Kubura 20:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
If we are going to play according to the rules, than the data in this article should be changed into the version I've given.
I gave my arguments/sources, you haven't, neither you've proven them wrong.
Kubura 20:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Please, Giove, will you give your counterarguments? I warn you for the second time here. Kubura 19:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Giove, I'm going to talk with you on your talk page also.
Stop using words like "your personal opinion".
Don't undervaluate other users' contributions, just because they oppose your contributions. Especially if opposers contributions are argumented.
My contributions aren't my opinions, I've referenced them.
You are avoiding procedures and playing dumb. Read well the sources I've posted. Don't lie (by calling such contributions as "personal opinions". Such ignorance is forbidden behaviour.
You've said: "Your personal opinions are meaningless here.". Beside your blatant lies, now you're even more belittleing opposers' contributions.
Kubura 12:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
All the above kbytes of words are surpassed, as a matter of facts, Wilkinson's lines are quite clear in describing the therm 'Illyric'. I suppose the dispute is over. Best regards.-- Giovanni Giove 19:31, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
(Slavonian)...consists of various dialects, the principal of which are Bohemian, Polish, Lusatian or Wend, Russian, Bulgarian, Illyrian, Croatian and Carinthian
What are we talking about?
Mikalja calls his dictionary:
"Blago jezika slovinskoga iliti slovnik/ Thesavrus lingvae illyricae sive dictionarium illyricum",
with line
"Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata"..
What do we want more here?
See link
[20] with scanned page
[21].
Don't play dumb, Giove. I'm posting this for the second time!
You're ignoring the first hand source!
You're becoming blatant, Giove. You're behaviour has crossed all limits.
Kubura 13:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Giovanni Giove, you've again made self-willing changes, without discussing it with other users
[22].
You've continued to POV-ize, and you've also removed the tags that showed current condition of the article "disputed", "POV" and "original research".
Despite numerous explanations regarding the language, you've continued ot push your story and original research
[23] and after the corrections explained on the talkpage, you've persistently ignored that and restored your POV version, after I've explicitly warned you for the SECOND time. You've done after that these changes/engaged in editwarring
[24] and
[25] and
[26] and
[27] and
[28],
[29],
[30],
[31].
Now you're warned for the THIRD time.
Kubura 08:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
"Map of Serbocroatian dialects". First, the translation is wrong. If you see, on that map, you'll se "Karta dijalekata hrvatskog ili srpskog jezika" ("Map of dialects of Croatian or Serbian language").
Second, some of authors of that book are signers of "Novi Sad agreement", that infuriated Croatian linguistic and academic community, because that "agreement" was an ordinary language submission (official language merging policy at the expense of Croatian).
Third, consider political circumstances from those times. Any scientifical work, or even worse, Croatian political iniciative on insisting of separate development of Croatian and Serbian language (as those languages had) brought severe political problems, police persecutions, imprisonments (under accusation of "destroying" the "unity of Croats and Serbs", "achievements of revolutions", "counterrevolutionary activity"....). See more on articles that deal with that. I've posted a bunch of material on the talkpage and articlepages.
Kubura 08:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
http://www.italica.rai.it/principali/lingua/bruni/lezioni/f_lv3.htm - a certain user mentioned this link as reference, because in it says "era opera del gesuita Giacomo Micaglia, nativo di Peschici (nel promontorio del Gargano), il quale si definiva slavo di lingua, italiano di nazionalità e originario, appunto, di Peschici (Coluccia 1992, 703)".
But, at the same time, on that very same page, says:
1) In passato, dall’area molto più ampia di quella odierna su cui erano sparsi gli insediamenti croati, vennero iniziative importanti.
2) Uscì in epoca controriformistica, nel 1649-51, il primo dizionario latino-italiano-croato pervenuto, che doveva servire ai Gesuiti attivi nella Croazia: era opera del gesuita Giacomo Micaglia, nativo di Peschici (nel promontorio del Gargano), il quale si definiva...
3) Ora, nel dialetto moderno di Peschici sono stati individuati croatismi che autorizzano a giudicare quel centro una colonia slava poi sommersa (Rohlfs 1958).
4) Dunque l’insediamento croato in Italia dava la nascita a un religioso pronto a utilizzare la propria conoscenza della lingua per collaborare a un’iniziativa che dalla colonia tornava alla madrepatria.
5) A queste fitte relazioni quattrocentesche risalgono gli insediamenti albanesi nell’Italia meridionale: la relazione del 1654-59 citata di sopra allude appunto alla fuga dalla dominazione turca (che è anche alla base delle colonie croate).
According to these lines on that link, I've made some changes in the article.
Kubura 06:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
As a first hand, boldened texts speaks about "Croat settlements" and "Croatian colonies" in Italy , "Latin-Italian-Croat dictionary" by Mikalja, "Croatisms in modern dialect of Peschici" (birthplace of Mikalja). Full translation to follow. Kubura 12:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Explain all this above, Giove. That's Italian source. Kubura 08:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
You don't explain it, do you?
You have time to spread your irredentist propaganda on the article page, but you don't answer on the questions when you're asked to do so, when we are trying to solve the disputes.
You won't get away with this.
Kubura 06:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Site
[32] used partial information.
They've wrote about the matter only superficially. They haven't dug any deeper.
Croatian language had some standardizations much earlier.
See the article
Croatian-language_grammar_books, or if you're lazy to click, here's a list:
Bartol Kašić 1604., Rajmund Džamanjić 1639., Jakov Mikalja 1649., Juraj Križanić 1665., Ardelio della Bella 1728., Blaž Tadijanović 1761., Matija Antun Relković 1767., Marijan Lanosović 1778., Josip Jurin 1793., Josip Voltić 1803., Francesco Maria Appendini 1808., Šime Starčević 1812. ...
These were the Croatian grammars made before the grammar of Vuk Karadžić.
Kubura 08:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Giove, you're playing dumb.
You AGAIN IGNORE all the explanations we gave you here on 20:54, 10 June 2007.
You've put some mistranslated map from a site that used an politically compromised (policy of violent language merging) map, that you misinterprete.
You don't read what we say to you. No Croat, no Montenegrin, no Bos. Muslim (self-designated as "Bosniaks"), no Serb'll claim those dialects (I've described you) previously for themselves.
This sentence of yours "Thus for political reasons, Croatian regard their own language as separate language
[1], it is for this reason that Micaglia's Dictionary is regarded as a Croatian dictionary, by the Croatian (or Croatia-related) sources
[33]
[34]. Thus, even in the present days, ethnic groups of former Yugoslavia share the same dialects (not to be confused with the standard languages)".
Giove, Croats, Montenegrins, Bos. Muslims and Serbs more differ in their dialects, than in official languages/standard languages. Your "vernacular" stories don't work. You don't know anything about this matter at all. Don't write your original research here.
Kubura 06:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I've asked few times opponent Giove to give his explanations, which he didn't give in reasonable time. So I changed the disputed lines about Mikalja.
His non-topic and original research sections were removed. If he wants to, he can discuss his personal point of view discuss on the talk page of the article about Croatian language or History of Croatian language.
I've deleted the lines with links at the beginning of the article (bookshop-references). They only showed Jakov's name written with the old ortography.
Kubura 13:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Who is trying to be silly? The forms "Jacopo Mikalia, Jacov Mikaglja" are from older ortography of Croatian language written in Latin letters (and someone puts those versions in front of todays ortography?).
The form Jakov Mikalja is in use in contemporary grammar of Croat language, so this form should be in the first place.
Note: all three forms are read the same way in Croatian.
Kubura 07:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's my post from above, from 5 Apr.
A link to the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result
[35].
Book of the author Jakov Mikalja.
Title is Blago jezika slovinskoga illi Slovnik : u komu izgorarajuse rjeci slovinske latinski i diacki = Thesaurus linguae Illyricae sive Dictionarium Illyricum : in quo verba Illyrica Italice et Latine redduntur / labore p. Jacobi Micalia ; Grammatika talianska u kratko ili Kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik / koga slovinski upisa otac Jacov Mikaglja ... Impresum: Laureti : apud Paulum et Io. Baptistam Seraphinum , 1649 .
"Jacov Mikaglja" is the form from the older Croat ortography. However, we don't write our surnames (the same ones are today and then) with "-ich, -ic, -xoevich, -zsics", but with "-ić, -žojević, -žić".
This works for Latin letters; this is imortant to note, because at the time, we, Croats, also used
Croat letters (Croat version of Cyrillic),
Glagolica, and islamized Croats used
Arabic alphabet.
Kubura 08:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
19 days have passed since Giovanni Giove violated the decisions from the Arbitration Committee (
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia/Proposed_decision). See also
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia#Remedies and section
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia#Enforcement
- Since then, other users have abstained from editing. Giovanni Giove abused that for his editslaughter.
- Because of repeated ignorant behaviour of user Giovanni Giove (described in
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia/Evidence), I've restored the version before Giove's violation of RFARB decisions.
Kubura 10:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
From mine side, report about that was given on admins' noticeboard, on 24 Oct [36], on 30 Oct [37], on 2 Nov [38]. Kubura 10:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I invite you to list some of the debeted points in this chapter, avoiding personal attacks. That would be more constructive of massive reverts and insults. The version you are edit warring is TOTALLY SOURCED. You have the right to dicusse what you do not agree, but NOT to restore an old version, full of surpassed claims. -- Giovanni Giove 23:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Giove, have you seen the text above? Have you ever read the messages the others posted?
How many times did you wrote the message on the talkpage, and how many times the others involved?
Have you ever compared the content of your messages with the others' messages contents?
How many times did your message ended/had its only content (not just here) "it's sourced", "you're a vandal", "stop vandalising", "you'll be reported to admins", "your claims are surpassed", "end of discussion", "punto"...?
Giove, we don't have to write twice or more times the things we wrote above (and similar related articles).
Kubura (
talk) 09:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
As I have few minutes, I would like to comment this pearl in Giovanni's work, sentence by sentence. This section has no other meaning but to prove the point that Croatian and Croats didn't exist at all until 1990. So let's go:
Messing with vernacular/dialect/standard is also very interesting. As Serbo-Croatian/Croato-Serbian linguistically was standardized Neo-Shtokavian Iyekavian, it couldn't and it didn't include Shtokavian Ikavian, and especially not Chakavian Ikavian, so all this story with "better described as..." is out of scope. By political definition it included all dialects, but than we are again on political ground!
I would like voting for deleting of the whole section. Reason - this is case of disrupting Wikipedia to prove the point. Plantago ( talk) 21:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Nicely told, Plantago.
Giove is definitely croatophobic. He cannot stand the adjective "Croat"; he feels the urge to remove it (under any, however stupid, excuse), replacing it with some amorphous "South Slavic", or with "Illyric" ("illirico" may exist in wiki on Old Italian - though, "croato" was also known adjective; but in contemporary Italian, solely the adjective "croato" is used), or dissoluting the share of Croatian by adding "Serbo-", creating Frankesteinic phrase (politically based from its very beginnings), "Serbo-Croatian" (name created by politicians).
Also, as you've noticed, Giove has "discovered" a new word to avoid the adjective "Croatian" and noun "Croat". Now he has started using adjective "Catholic".
Poor Giove, lost in time and space, doesn't know, or doesn't want to know, that old Republic of Venice used bilingual proclamations on its possessions in Croatian Littoral (I think that was also done in its possessions in Greek and Albanian Littoral). "Lingua illirica" was translated as "jezik harvacki/ilirski/slovinski" (Croatian/Illyrian/Slovinic).
Radiotelevisione Italiana, RAI, calls Mikalja's dictionary as Latin-Croat-Italian, but, that's doesn't matter at all to Giove. He finds himself bigger scientific and scholar authority than cultural section of RAI.
So, he thinks that Wikipedia is a place to spread his POVs and his original work ("...even the term serbocroatian is a better descriptor...") and creates a whole section, to defend his witchdoctorship pseudosciencework. Definitely, Giove has ignored and still ignores Wikipedian rule no original research.
However, Giove misinterpretes the links/sources. Here
[39], Giove blatantly lies. In fact, on this reference
[40] (that Giove ignored and never looked at), says:
hrrivat. Hervat: Croata'; Illyricus, i. Croata: æ
hrrivaçia. Hervarska zemglja: Croatia; Illyris, dis. Illyricum; ci. Croatia, æ
For those who don't know, the source site (of that image) is www.ihjj.hr is The Institute of Croatian Language and Linguistics (more in English
http://www.ihjj.hr/index_en.html).
Changes like this one ("still non existing Croatian language"),
[41] is bad intension, anti-Croat chauvinism and blatant lie..
Giove could see materials and links I've posted half a year ago (or more) on the
Talk:Republic of Dubrovnik, sections:
- "title"
[42],
- "Slavic language"
[43],
- "For those who doubt about Croathood of Dubrovnik"
[44],
- "Illyrian language"
[45],
- "Croathood of Dubrovnik and translations"
[46]
- "Croats' dialects in old Dubrovnik Republic"
[47],
- "The name of the country"
[48]
and probably on few more place repeated, there was a bunch of links to scanned pages of original documents. These scans are on the site of the Croatian National and University Library. Giove obviously ignores that source.
About standardization of Croatian language. Standardizations tries did existed, there were multiple solutions in use. Picture gets more complex, knowing that Croatian was, at that time, written in various sources in with four alphabets (Latin, Glagolitic, Croatian redaction of Cyrillic and Arabic) and depending of the foreign ruler (some ortographic solutions varied). Before Mikalja, currently are known two grammars (Bartol Kašić's Institutionem linguae illyricae libri duo from 1604 and Rajmund Džamanjić's Nauk za dobro pisati latinskijem slovima riječi jezika slovinskoga from 1639).
Regarding Giove's obsession with Italianizing of Croatian names/or presenting them in Italian form... Has he ever heard that in Hungarian sources, Faust Vrančić was mentioned as Verancsics? Old Hungarian sources haven't changed its Croat surname. Does that mean that medieval kingdom of Hungary was ruled by Croatian Communist POV-izers (with Tito on the top)?
Kubura (
talk) 10:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
This Giove's edit here is badintentional. In this unexplained revert from 14 Nov 2007, 23:05, Giove did this
[49]. Beside all above mentioned violations, here he has shown filtering of information.
The original line:
Mikalja's greatest work is Thesaurus of Croatian Language and Croatian Dictionary (where Croatian words are translated in Italian and Latin...
Giove replaces with this one:
Micaglia's greatest work is Thesaurus of Illyrian Language and Illyrian Dictionary (where Illyrian words are translated in Italian and Latin .
Original title of the work is :
"Blago jezika slovinskoga ili Slovnik u Komu izgovarajuse rjeci slovinske Latinski, i Diacki.".
At first, you don't see "Croatian" or "Italian" in the original. But, what are these "slovinski" and "dijacki"?
But, in the subtitle, text is like this:
"Thesaurus linguae Illyricae sive Dictionarium Illyricum. In quo verba Illyrica Italice, et Latine redduntur."
There, appears "Illyric" as translation for "slovinski", "Italian" as translation for "latinski", and "Latin" as translation for "dijacki" (!!).
Now, we need - where's Croatian? There we go to that scanned page.
[50]. Translation of Illyricus is "Croata, Hrvat" etc. (that means, the form Croatia was confirmed in Italian, right there).
But what Giove did? He translated the "Latinski and Dijacki" to "Italian and Latin", but he was intentionally hiding, intentionally filtering the adjective "Croatian"!.
Kubura (
talk) 10:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Also, the term "Serbo-Croatian" was used in dictionary name for the first time in 1867 by Pero Budmani (a linguist that belonged to hardline of anti-Croat politicians, that declared himself as Serb, and that swored that he'll go along the line of "Serbhood and Yugoslavhood"), 216 years after Mikalja's dictionary. Kubura ( talk) 11:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Molise Croats doesn't concern to Peschici: Peschici is in Apulia, not in Molise, and there's no Croatian settlment in Apulia, since XI century, even if there were reminiscences of language in the local dialect, witnessing the presence of Croatian.-- Theirrulez ( talk) 15:10, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
I know where Peschici is. Geography is completely beside the point. This is a Croatian person born in Peschici, so if there is a Croatian name for that town, its perfectly fine to list it as related information. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 20:44, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
-- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 10:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
# It's not a matter of using Croatian or Italian, but of following English usage & providing information to our readership.
- For the names of people and places, follow common English usage, regardless of whether the names commonly used in English are of Croatian, Italian, French, Greek or Chinese origin. For Wikipedia's purposes, the bias lies in using names different from those commonly used in English-language publications, not in using Croatian, Italian, French, Greek or Chinese names.
- City names: the basic criterion is to follow common English usage. In accordance to the naming conventions for geographic names (specifically, the 3rd general guideline), the city names used in this article should be consistent with the titles of the entries on each city. – However, readers need to understand that the names Dubrovnik & Ragusa (both necessarily used in an article related to the Republic of Ragusa) refer to the same place. I edited the lead section to read " Dubrovnik (Ragusa), in the Dalmatian coast of modern Croatia". In the same manner, I used the same format in the first mentions of Kotor (Cattaro) & Ston (Stagno), when referring to periods for which modern English-language literature regularly uses the Italian names.
-
This is the perfect example to what good wipedians shouldn't do. I'm really upset. Hundreds of hours trying to have a dialogue and one user, always the same, revert every other users' efforts to push is positions. DIREKTOR, you wrote somethin in contrast with reliable sources cited in the article. Why? Is it acceptable? Is it acceptable that you continue to act like that? Please, don't impose you POV always in every article you contribute... It's at least unfair.. -- Theirrulez ( talk) 16:29, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Nota Bene: Don't impose any changement to the article if u have not discussed it here and if you don't provide reliable sources.-- Theirrulez ( talk) 05:23, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
This revert, especially considering it was preceded by this edit dangerously borders on WP:POINT... You should always discuss before making potentially controversial changes (and I fear this one is). Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 17:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Astonishing. -- Theirrulez ( talk) 19:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Sirs, can someone kindly provide me a reasonable ground for which User:DIREKTOR and User:Kebeta auomatically cancel reliable sources like:
from the article, without any discussion HERE in the related talk page? Thanks, -- Theirrulez ( talk) 15:14, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
This is what i mean. =O -- Theirrulez ( talk) 15:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
About Illyric language. See this link.
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/4689/grabovac.htm, about fra Filip Grabovac, the author of Cvit razgovora naroda i jezika iliričkoga aliti arvackoga (...Illyric or Croat).
Or this title, from the the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result
[1].
A dictionary by Andrija Jambrešić and Franjo Sušnik.
Title is : Lexicon Latinum interpretatione Illyrica, Germanica et Hungarica locuples : in usum potissimum studiosae juventutis / digestum ab Andrea Jambressich, Societatis Jesu sacerdote, Croata Zagoriensi Impresum: Zagrabi[ae] : Typis Academicis Societatis Jesu, [per A. W. Wesseli] , 1742 .
Kubura 12:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's a link to the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result
[2].
Book of the author Jakov Mikalja.
Title is Blago jezika slovinskoga illi Slovnik : u komu izgorarajuse rjeci slovinske latinski i diacki = Thesaurus linguae Illyricae sive Dictionarium Illyricum : in quo verba Illyrica Italice et Latine redduntur / labore p. Jacobi Micalia ; Grammatika talianska u kratko ili Kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik / koga slovinski upisa otac Jacov Mikaglja ... Impresum: Laureti : apud Paulum et Io. Baptistam Seraphinum , 1649 .
Kubura 12:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
From the Talk:Serbo-Croatian language:
virtually all literature written in shtokavian vernacular prior to Serbian language reformer Vuk Karadžić, ie. cca. 430 years of literary texts, belong to the Croatian linguistic and literary heritage. First major vernacular shtokavian text is "First Croatian prayer book", kept in Vatican library- date cca. 1380-1400. Then follow major authors covering Renaissance, Baroque, Classicist and Sentimental literaure: Držić, Menčetić, Gundulić, Bunić, Palmotić, Zlatarić (Dubrovnik), Kavanjin (Split, Dalmatia), Kanavelović (Korčula, Dalmatia), Divković, Posilović (Bosnia), Kačić(Dalmatia), Relković, Ivanošić, Došen (Slavonia)..
The majority of these texts are titled as works on "Illyrian" or "Slovinian"/"Slavonic" language, but they explicitly equate Illyrian with Croatian- dor instance, first major shtokavian-based dictionary, Mikalja's/Micaglia's "Thesaurus linguae illyricae", Loreto 1649. "Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata".
Further info on older Croatian lexicography can be found at
http://www.hlz.hr/eng/povijest.html
Kubura 19:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The article should be named Jakov Mikalja.
Also, I supposed which questions might arose, so I've intercepted them.
Kubura 13:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
And, again, "Serbocroatian"?
What Serbs are you talking about?
What are you doing, Giove? Playing dumb?
Ignoring and deleting my data I've posted here???
That's vandalism!
POV-ising with inserting adjective "Serbo-" where isn't any there and deleting any lines that link to Croatian language
[3] and deleting (???) the sourcenames in original Croatian
[4] (you've deleted the lines Blago jezika slovinskoga illi slovnik u komu izgovarajuse rjeci slovinske Latinski i Diacki).
Kubura 14:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
If its hard for you to click on the link that speak about Mikalja, here're the scans from the page
[5].
On the first scan
[6] you have following text, a page from Croat-Italian-Latin dictionary:
hrrivat. Hervat; Croata; Illyricus, i. Croata; ae.
hrrivaçia. Hervarska zemglja; Croatia; Illyris, dis. Illyricum, ci. Croatia, ae.
On the second scan
[7], there's the front page.
Kubura 21:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Here're few links from HAZU library.
These are Christian books of meditations and Sunday schools (katehetika).
First one is by Rayaumont, translated by Emerik Pavić. "Ogledalo temelja, vire, i zakona katolicsanskoga to jest Sveto Pismo, iliti Jezgra sviu dogagjajah Staroga, i Novoga zakona : s-tolmacsenjem svetih otaca pomissana za rassirenje boxjeg poznanstva, i razglasenje moguchstva, i dobrote privicsnjega pripovigjena, i istolmacsena / najpri u francuzki jezik po gospodinu Rayaumontu prioru od Sombrevala sloxena, a zatim nimacski primistita ; a sada u nass slavni uljudni i krasnii illyricski jezik prinessena po Ocu Fra Emeriku Pavichu, sstiocu poglavitomu svete bogoslovice u gradu Budimu, Reda S. O. Franceska, Provincie S. Ivana Capistrana. - U Budimu : Sstampano po Francesku Leopoldu Landereru, 1759.". Here're the first two pages
[8].
It says "The mirror of the foundations, faith and law of Catholicism... in French language by Rayaumont...then translated in German, and now in our civilized and beautiful illyric language by fra Emerik Pavić". Printed in Buda (now merged in Budapest) in 1759.
Second one, a book translated by the same author. "Jezgra rimskoga pravovirnoga nauka kerstjanskoga, za mladex jasnoga i glasovitoga grada Becskoga godine 1767 u nimacski jezik na svitlost dana; sada pak za spasonosno napridovanje ... u slovinski, iliti illyrcski, jali dalmatinski jezik prinessena i s-tieskom opchena ucsinjena / [preveo Emericus Pavich]. - U Budimu : sa slovi Leopolda Franceska Landerera, 1769.". Printed in Buda, in 1769. First two pages
[9].
It says "The core of Roman Catholic doctrine, for youth.... written in German, now translated in Slovinic or Illyric or Dalmatian language".
As I've said previously, Croatian language is in older sources, "Croatian, Illyric, Slovinic", but also under local names, like "Dalmatian, Slavonic...".
Kubura 08:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
@Giovanni: Please stop reverting everything. Be constructive.
Do not just change Croatian to Illyrian or Serbocroatian etc. First mentioning of Serbocroatian is in 18th century. Equality between name "Illyrian language" and "Croatian" is documented and well known, so it is not unsubstantiated. He is known by name "Mikalja" not only in Croatia, so don't refer to his name like it is only in Croatia.
@Kubura: He is definitely Italian, and Croat too. So please leave adjective "Italian" where it is.
--
Plantago 11:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Plantago, I know about the problem.
I've seen a link where it states that Jakov was born in Peschici, on peninsula of Gargano.
In fact, the link from Italian domain, Reportonline,
[10], speaks about Latino-Croat dictionary (Una storia secolare culminata nel vocabolario Latino-Croato Che i gesuiti usarono per portare la Controriforma in Croazia).
I've also seen the line "Egli si definitiva salvo di lingua, italiano di nazionalità ed originario, appunto, di Peschici".
I respect that. I don't deny that. Unless someone made a "hairdressing" of data.
Regarding the history of Croatian language, on the talk page of Republic of Dubrovnik, I wrote a bunch of text with a bunch of links to the library of HAZU, Croatian academy of sciences and arts. Some of those links contain scanned pages of the works that deal with Croatian, Illyrian, use of Croatian language in previous centuries (not just in 20th century, as one user said). But, Giovanni Giove ignored that. In fact, he said:
[11]. "Kubura's comments are false, Kubura was NEVER able to prove that Giovanni Giove's edits are wrong". Yeah, wright, starting with the language.
Kubura 07:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Where have I denied that? Or you're playing dumb again?
If you remember, I've written on the talk page of Republic of Dubrovnik: "...They (higher social classes) spoke and used Italian language, only to differ them from the serfs and other lower social classes. That is the case that existed all over Europe. ...". on 11 August 2006, 08:35.
On 13 February 2007, 12:38, I've written:"Third, Ragusean Dalmatian language is not the same as Italian language, neither belongs to the same subgroup of Romanic languages".
I just disagree with someone's overestimations of use of Italian language, as well as of presence of Italians. Do you know the information that women rarely spoke Italian?
In contemporary Croatia the Esperanto texts are also written, exclusively by highly educated people, but that doesn't make Croatia as Esperanto country.
Kubura 20:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
"Hrvatski leksikon" (edition from 1995) speaks about Mikalja as a "descendant of Croat refugees from Dalmatia, that went into refuge (into Italy) because of Ottoman advance". Kubura 20:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
On the page from Matica hrvatska (link added, text by Vladimir Horvat), the author speaks about the Croat origins of Jakov Mikalja (and explains them). Kubura 21:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
This is an article about an Italian guy called Giacamo Micaglia. The Croatian transaltion of his name is just a translation, and it was never used by the guy. His only name is Giacomo Micaglia. He can't be classified of Croat origin. Mikalija is anyway inserted (as a translation)-- Giovanni Giove 13:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
From the link
[13].
"GRAMMATIKA TALIANSKA U KRATH(!)O ILLI KRATAK NAUK ZA NAUCITTI LATINSKI JEZIK. Koga slovinski upisa Otaç Jacov Mikaglja Drusgbe Isusove. Loreto, 1649. ..."
After the preface, there's an intro to grammar Grammatika talianska u kratho illi kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik. Koga slovinski upisa Otaç Jacov Mikaglja Drusgbe Isusove". (Italian Grammar in short lines or short way to learn Latin. In Slovinic written by father Jacov Mikaglja Drusgbe Isusove).
There's a picture of that page in "Hrvatski leksikon", by the article that speaks about Jakov Mikalja.
Kubura 21:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
If you want the scan of that page, I'll do it, but I'll have to ask the authors of the lexikon, because of copyright issues. Although, I don't know if that would have any sense... you're persistently ignoring all pages with scans (that I've posted you on the talk page of Republic of Dubrovnik) that are from catalogue of library of Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts. Kubura
So, let's do some work with last Giovanni Giove amandment. Here is "Controversy" section:
Micaglia's Dictionary is often presented as a Croatian dictionary [3][4]. - By whom, and who is opposed to that, if it is "often presented"?.
The dictionary, anyway, is better described by the word Serbocroatian, because the present days ethnic groups of former Yugoslavia share the same dialects and because Micaglia collected words of different South Slavic dialects , outside the present day Croatia (mainly in Bosnia). - How he could collect words only outside present day Croatia, if he was in Dubrovnik/Ragusa, and not in Bosnia at all? Bosnian dialect is not Bosnian language, but Shtokavian dialect, spoken by many of Bosnian citizens. Who qualified you to "better describe it as Serbocroatian"? Language then is not as language now. Original research..
Futhermore the therm Illyric formerly described all the slavic dialects spoken in the Balkans, without regard of religions, and location; all these dialects were still vernacular and not already developed into a Croatian (or Serbian) national language. - Source for the claim? Do you have linguist reference of some kind for this? Original research.
That why the word Illyric shall be reffered to all the former Yugoslavian dialects; it can consequently be properly described by the therm Serbocroatian (or "Central South Slavic diasystem"). - I see what you mean. Definitely you cannot do that, even was it truth, and it didn't, because Mikalja didn't include eastern dialects and only a little of northern dialects anyhow. It appears to me that you have an idealistic approach: They all speak the common language, so let's say he belongs to everybody, forget that nationalistic quarrels. Well, that can be truth or not, but you have to prove that Illyric is equal to Serbocroatian (or "Central South Slavic diasystem"). Mikalja belongs to Croatian culture (and Italian, of course), not Serbian or Bosniak, and because of that is regarded as one of the first Croatian lexicographers. Languages develop. Do you think that Vuk Karadzic is regarded by anyone in Croatia or Serbia as lexicograph and reformer of Serbocroatian?. Unsupported claims.
After the breakdown of Jugoslavia, the therm Serborcratian has anyway became unpopular in Croatia. - Official language in Croatia was always called Croatian OR Serbian. So it was unpopular always:-) This has nothing with Mikalja. There are older works, even before Yugoslavia, and also during Yugoslavia, mentioning him as one of foundations of Croatian written literature
A similar problem regard Micaglia himself, often presented as the Croatian linguist Jakov Mikalja. Thus Micaglia himself declared to be Italian, and Mikalja is a recent translation of the Italian name. - Well, this is the claim I see from you all the time. Where is the proof? I mentioned other two official ways of writing his name, together with sources. Pronountiation is the same as Croatian name, just ortography is different. He never said he is Italian by ethnicity, but of Italian nationality - it means he is citizen of one of Italian countries (Kingdom of Naples, Italy didn't exist at that time as one country)--
Plantago 13:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's more. It's important what Mikalja had in mind when he said "Illyric".
In that very samedictionary, he explicitly declared "Illyricus" as Croat. See
[14] and
[15] and front page
[16]. I'm posting this argument for the SECOND TIME. What do you want more?
"present days ethnic groups of former Yugoslavia share the same dialects. Wrong. Read my contribution above (with the bold letters), that deal with dialects of Croats and Serbs.
Then this section "After the breakdown of Jugoslavia, the therm Serborcratian has anyway became unpopular in Croatia. - Official language in Croatia was always called Croatian OR Serbian. So it was unpopular always:-) This has nothing with Mikalja.".
Serbocroatian was never popular term in Croatia. Even during Yugoslavia. It was considered as serious provocation in Croatia (as well as among the Croats in BiH), if someone told you "Speak Serbocroatian!" or even worse version "Speak Serbian so the whole world can understand you!". Second, official language in Croatia hasn't always been called "Croatian or Serbian". Wrong. The name "Croat or Serb" was official solely in the period from 1970-1990. Any political move towards changing that made serious problem to the one who wanted that. Yugounitarist communists penalized such persons. See the talkpage
Talk:Differences_between_standard_Serbian,_Croatian_and_Bosnian#About_.22unwanted_tendencies.22_and_language_policy.
About Mikalja's ethnicity, read the article about him by Jesuit writer prof. Vladimir Horvat (he teaches on Faculty of Philosophy of Societas Jes`u in Zagreb, www.ffdi.hr) - there he explained why we should consider Mikalja as Croat; you can download it from the internet. Here's the link
[17]. Giove, there you have the link.
That scientific work wasn't written in "some book at Nowhereland, so nobody can read it or criticize it". That work was present in symposium held in Ancona (as I said above). Kubura 20:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh my good, I wasn't here for some time and what happened?!Furthermore the therm Illyric formerly described to the all the Serbocroatian and Slovenian dialects - Giove, this reference is from Illyrian movement, some centuries AFTER J.M.! Or you want to say that Slovenian is also a dialect, and it is part of S-C, because it was still vernacular at that time. Well, than add please Bulgarian too, because it was also called Illyrian sometimes. It seems that "vernacular" is your ultimate argument. Well, I have news: Dante's construct is also "vernacular" by your criteria, because it was not officially standardized until mid-1800, just like Croatian. Please learn Italian language history first.
All these dialects were still vernacular during Micalglia's time, and not already developed into a Croatian or Serbian standard language. This definition was still in use the mid of 19th century. It is interesting that in this time, the Dalmatian and the Bosnian dialects were not classified as Croatian, but as 'Servian' dialects. In fact the therm 'Croatian dialect' was referred only to the the small Kingdom of Croatia, around Zagreb - what is this? Which definition? There is no definition given. What was not classified, by whom? You gave some reference to nothing - just some links to links. So now you also mention that there IS Serbian language, and Croatian too, as separate!? Do they exist or not? I'll delete this rubbish boldly.
Did you change any article about Tzar Dusan's law, from Servian to Serbo-Croatian? No? Why? Please do it and stop playing here. -- Plantago 13:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Vladimir Horvat wrote about him.
He explained Mikalja's Croat origin in a symposium held in Ancona, when speaking about Croat Jesuits lexicographers of 17th century.
The work is:
Vladimir Horvat: I lessicografi gesuiti del Seicento tra le due sponde: Bartol Kašić - Cassius - Cassio (Pag, 1575-1650, Roma), e Jakov Mikalja - Mica(g)lia (Peschici, 1601-1654, Loreto). Homo adriaticus - identitt`a culturale e autocoscienza attraverso i secoli, Atti del convegno internazionale di studio organizzato dalla Accademia Marchigiana di Scienze e Lettere ed Arti, Ancona, 9-12 novembre 1993. Edizioni Diabasis, Reggio Emilia, 1998, str. 105.-116.
He also had an article, there's also a link on the internet; though, the text is in Croatian. This reference is from that article.
Still, I hope this'll help.
Kubura 21:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Italian books aren't good anymore? Or Ancona isn't "enough Italian"? Or the ferry that regularly links Ancona with Croatia, spoiled Ancona's validity? Kubura 22:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
BTW, Vladimir Horvat is a Jesuit, ph.D., a professor on Philosophic faculty of Societas Gesú in Zagreb.
He wrote an article in magazine "Obnovljeni život" of Philosophic faculty
[18], (Jakov Mikalja, isusovac-leksikograf 400. obljetnica rođenja (1601-1654) i 350. obljetnica tiskanja (1651) prvog hrvatskog rječnika Blago jezika slovinskoga).
Kubura 22:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Here're some other links. Some are in Croatian, but some texts contain parts in Latin or Italian, that should be helpful.
http://www.matica.hr/Kolo/kolo0301.nsf/AllWebDocs/lex ("Kolo" magazine of Matica hrvatska, Matrix croatica).
http://arhiv.slobodnadalmacija.hr/20010924/kultura.htm
http://www.matis.hr/zbornici/2002/text/du_322.htm The magazine of Croat matrix of diaspora (Matica iseljenika; I'm not so good in Latin).
http://www.hrvatskiplus.org/Default.aspx?art=34&sec=21 The site of Zagreb school of Slavistics. See how they name Jakov Mikalja.
Kubura 22:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Serbian fascists (1945. i 1995. respectively). Wanna replay, eh ?
Mir Harven 21:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh my God!.... . Harvy again fooling about irridentism :-) (it's funny that was never able to post a line fo enforce this idea
BUAAAHHHH.... the Grater Serbian Lunacy!!!!:-)))) Baby!... Mikalja was *invented* in XX century as *transation* of the Italian name. That if you like or not. Now I go ... I've to roast a Croatian child. YUMMMIII!--
Giovanni Giove 22:04, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I've told you, on the second page of his dictionary, it uses name in Croatian, written in the ortography from those times.
Do you read the references I've mentioned at all?!?
Please, answer me.
Don't say: "that's vandalism", "I'll report you to admins", "that's falsificiation", "that's not a trustable source". That's not an answer.
Especially the racist remarks like "deliberate falsification that Croats do against Italian personalities of Dalmatia".
Kubura 20:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
If we are going to play according to the rules, than the data in this article should be changed into the version I've given.
I gave my arguments/sources, you haven't, neither you've proven them wrong.
Kubura 20:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Please, Giove, will you give your counterarguments? I warn you for the second time here. Kubura 19:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Giove, I'm going to talk with you on your talk page also.
Stop using words like "your personal opinion".
Don't undervaluate other users' contributions, just because they oppose your contributions. Especially if opposers contributions are argumented.
My contributions aren't my opinions, I've referenced them.
You are avoiding procedures and playing dumb. Read well the sources I've posted. Don't lie (by calling such contributions as "personal opinions". Such ignorance is forbidden behaviour.
You've said: "Your personal opinions are meaningless here.". Beside your blatant lies, now you're even more belittleing opposers' contributions.
Kubura 12:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
All the above kbytes of words are surpassed, as a matter of facts, Wilkinson's lines are quite clear in describing the therm 'Illyric'. I suppose the dispute is over. Best regards.-- Giovanni Giove 19:31, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
(Slavonian)...consists of various dialects, the principal of which are Bohemian, Polish, Lusatian or Wend, Russian, Bulgarian, Illyrian, Croatian and Carinthian
What are we talking about?
Mikalja calls his dictionary:
"Blago jezika slovinskoga iliti slovnik/ Thesavrus lingvae illyricae sive dictionarium illyricum",
with line
"Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata"..
What do we want more here?
See link
[20] with scanned page
[21].
Don't play dumb, Giove. I'm posting this for the second time!
You're ignoring the first hand source!
You're becoming blatant, Giove. You're behaviour has crossed all limits.
Kubura 13:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Giovanni Giove, you've again made self-willing changes, without discussing it with other users
[22].
You've continued to POV-ize, and you've also removed the tags that showed current condition of the article "disputed", "POV" and "original research".
Despite numerous explanations regarding the language, you've continued ot push your story and original research
[23] and after the corrections explained on the talkpage, you've persistently ignored that and restored your POV version, after I've explicitly warned you for the SECOND time. You've done after that these changes/engaged in editwarring
[24] and
[25] and
[26] and
[27] and
[28],
[29],
[30],
[31].
Now you're warned for the THIRD time.
Kubura 08:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
"Map of Serbocroatian dialects". First, the translation is wrong. If you see, on that map, you'll se "Karta dijalekata hrvatskog ili srpskog jezika" ("Map of dialects of Croatian or Serbian language").
Second, some of authors of that book are signers of "Novi Sad agreement", that infuriated Croatian linguistic and academic community, because that "agreement" was an ordinary language submission (official language merging policy at the expense of Croatian).
Third, consider political circumstances from those times. Any scientifical work, or even worse, Croatian political iniciative on insisting of separate development of Croatian and Serbian language (as those languages had) brought severe political problems, police persecutions, imprisonments (under accusation of "destroying" the "unity of Croats and Serbs", "achievements of revolutions", "counterrevolutionary activity"....). See more on articles that deal with that. I've posted a bunch of material on the talkpage and articlepages.
Kubura 08:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
http://www.italica.rai.it/principali/lingua/bruni/lezioni/f_lv3.htm - a certain user mentioned this link as reference, because in it says "era opera del gesuita Giacomo Micaglia, nativo di Peschici (nel promontorio del Gargano), il quale si definiva slavo di lingua, italiano di nazionalità e originario, appunto, di Peschici (Coluccia 1992, 703)".
But, at the same time, on that very same page, says:
1) In passato, dall’area molto più ampia di quella odierna su cui erano sparsi gli insediamenti croati, vennero iniziative importanti.
2) Uscì in epoca controriformistica, nel 1649-51, il primo dizionario latino-italiano-croato pervenuto, che doveva servire ai Gesuiti attivi nella Croazia: era opera del gesuita Giacomo Micaglia, nativo di Peschici (nel promontorio del Gargano), il quale si definiva...
3) Ora, nel dialetto moderno di Peschici sono stati individuati croatismi che autorizzano a giudicare quel centro una colonia slava poi sommersa (Rohlfs 1958).
4) Dunque l’insediamento croato in Italia dava la nascita a un religioso pronto a utilizzare la propria conoscenza della lingua per collaborare a un’iniziativa che dalla colonia tornava alla madrepatria.
5) A queste fitte relazioni quattrocentesche risalgono gli insediamenti albanesi nell’Italia meridionale: la relazione del 1654-59 citata di sopra allude appunto alla fuga dalla dominazione turca (che è anche alla base delle colonie croate).
According to these lines on that link, I've made some changes in the article.
Kubura 06:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
As a first hand, boldened texts speaks about "Croat settlements" and "Croatian colonies" in Italy , "Latin-Italian-Croat dictionary" by Mikalja, "Croatisms in modern dialect of Peschici" (birthplace of Mikalja). Full translation to follow. Kubura 12:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Explain all this above, Giove. That's Italian source. Kubura 08:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
You don't explain it, do you?
You have time to spread your irredentist propaganda on the article page, but you don't answer on the questions when you're asked to do so, when we are trying to solve the disputes.
You won't get away with this.
Kubura 06:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Site
[32] used partial information.
They've wrote about the matter only superficially. They haven't dug any deeper.
Croatian language had some standardizations much earlier.
See the article
Croatian-language_grammar_books, or if you're lazy to click, here's a list:
Bartol Kašić 1604., Rajmund Džamanjić 1639., Jakov Mikalja 1649., Juraj Križanić 1665., Ardelio della Bella 1728., Blaž Tadijanović 1761., Matija Antun Relković 1767., Marijan Lanosović 1778., Josip Jurin 1793., Josip Voltić 1803., Francesco Maria Appendini 1808., Šime Starčević 1812. ...
These were the Croatian grammars made before the grammar of Vuk Karadžić.
Kubura 08:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Giove, you're playing dumb.
You AGAIN IGNORE all the explanations we gave you here on 20:54, 10 June 2007.
You've put some mistranslated map from a site that used an politically compromised (policy of violent language merging) map, that you misinterprete.
You don't read what we say to you. No Croat, no Montenegrin, no Bos. Muslim (self-designated as "Bosniaks"), no Serb'll claim those dialects (I've described you) previously for themselves.
This sentence of yours "Thus for political reasons, Croatian regard their own language as separate language
[1], it is for this reason that Micaglia's Dictionary is regarded as a Croatian dictionary, by the Croatian (or Croatia-related) sources
[33]
[34]. Thus, even in the present days, ethnic groups of former Yugoslavia share the same dialects (not to be confused with the standard languages)".
Giove, Croats, Montenegrins, Bos. Muslims and Serbs more differ in their dialects, than in official languages/standard languages. Your "vernacular" stories don't work. You don't know anything about this matter at all. Don't write your original research here.
Kubura 06:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I've asked few times opponent Giove to give his explanations, which he didn't give in reasonable time. So I changed the disputed lines about Mikalja.
His non-topic and original research sections were removed. If he wants to, he can discuss his personal point of view discuss on the talk page of the article about Croatian language or History of Croatian language.
I've deleted the lines with links at the beginning of the article (bookshop-references). They only showed Jakov's name written with the old ortography.
Kubura 13:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Who is trying to be silly? The forms "Jacopo Mikalia, Jacov Mikaglja" are from older ortography of Croatian language written in Latin letters (and someone puts those versions in front of todays ortography?).
The form Jakov Mikalja is in use in contemporary grammar of Croat language, so this form should be in the first place.
Note: all three forms are read the same way in Croatian.
Kubura 07:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's my post from above, from 5 Apr.
A link to the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result
[35].
Book of the author Jakov Mikalja.
Title is Blago jezika slovinskoga illi Slovnik : u komu izgorarajuse rjeci slovinske latinski i diacki = Thesaurus linguae Illyricae sive Dictionarium Illyricum : in quo verba Illyrica Italice et Latine redduntur / labore p. Jacobi Micalia ; Grammatika talianska u kratko ili Kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik / koga slovinski upisa otac Jacov Mikaglja ... Impresum: Laureti : apud Paulum et Io. Baptistam Seraphinum , 1649 .
"Jacov Mikaglja" is the form from the older Croat ortography. However, we don't write our surnames (the same ones are today and then) with "-ich, -ic, -xoevich, -zsics", but with "-ić, -žojević, -žić".
This works for Latin letters; this is imortant to note, because at the time, we, Croats, also used
Croat letters (Croat version of Cyrillic),
Glagolica, and islamized Croats used
Arabic alphabet.
Kubura 08:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
19 days have passed since Giovanni Giove violated the decisions from the Arbitration Committee (
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia/Proposed_decision). See also
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia#Remedies and section
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia#Enforcement
- Since then, other users have abstained from editing. Giovanni Giove abused that for his editslaughter.
- Because of repeated ignorant behaviour of user Giovanni Giove (described in
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia/Evidence), I've restored the version before Giove's violation of RFARB decisions.
Kubura 10:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
From mine side, report about that was given on admins' noticeboard, on 24 Oct [36], on 30 Oct [37], on 2 Nov [38]. Kubura 10:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I invite you to list some of the debeted points in this chapter, avoiding personal attacks. That would be more constructive of massive reverts and insults. The version you are edit warring is TOTALLY SOURCED. You have the right to dicusse what you do not agree, but NOT to restore an old version, full of surpassed claims. -- Giovanni Giove 23:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Giove, have you seen the text above? Have you ever read the messages the others posted?
How many times did you wrote the message on the talkpage, and how many times the others involved?
Have you ever compared the content of your messages with the others' messages contents?
How many times did your message ended/had its only content (not just here) "it's sourced", "you're a vandal", "stop vandalising", "you'll be reported to admins", "your claims are surpassed", "end of discussion", "punto"...?
Giove, we don't have to write twice or more times the things we wrote above (and similar related articles).
Kubura (
talk) 09:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
As I have few minutes, I would like to comment this pearl in Giovanni's work, sentence by sentence. This section has no other meaning but to prove the point that Croatian and Croats didn't exist at all until 1990. So let's go:
Messing with vernacular/dialect/standard is also very interesting. As Serbo-Croatian/Croato-Serbian linguistically was standardized Neo-Shtokavian Iyekavian, it couldn't and it didn't include Shtokavian Ikavian, and especially not Chakavian Ikavian, so all this story with "better described as..." is out of scope. By political definition it included all dialects, but than we are again on political ground!
I would like voting for deleting of the whole section. Reason - this is case of disrupting Wikipedia to prove the point. Plantago ( talk) 21:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Nicely told, Plantago.
Giove is definitely croatophobic. He cannot stand the adjective "Croat"; he feels the urge to remove it (under any, however stupid, excuse), replacing it with some amorphous "South Slavic", or with "Illyric" ("illirico" may exist in wiki on Old Italian - though, "croato" was also known adjective; but in contemporary Italian, solely the adjective "croato" is used), or dissoluting the share of Croatian by adding "Serbo-", creating Frankesteinic phrase (politically based from its very beginnings), "Serbo-Croatian" (name created by politicians).
Also, as you've noticed, Giove has "discovered" a new word to avoid the adjective "Croatian" and noun "Croat". Now he has started using adjective "Catholic".
Poor Giove, lost in time and space, doesn't know, or doesn't want to know, that old Republic of Venice used bilingual proclamations on its possessions in Croatian Littoral (I think that was also done in its possessions in Greek and Albanian Littoral). "Lingua illirica" was translated as "jezik harvacki/ilirski/slovinski" (Croatian/Illyrian/Slovinic).
Radiotelevisione Italiana, RAI, calls Mikalja's dictionary as Latin-Croat-Italian, but, that's doesn't matter at all to Giove. He finds himself bigger scientific and scholar authority than cultural section of RAI.
So, he thinks that Wikipedia is a place to spread his POVs and his original work ("...even the term serbocroatian is a better descriptor...") and creates a whole section, to defend his witchdoctorship pseudosciencework. Definitely, Giove has ignored and still ignores Wikipedian rule no original research.
However, Giove misinterpretes the links/sources. Here
[39], Giove blatantly lies. In fact, on this reference
[40] (that Giove ignored and never looked at), says:
hrrivat. Hervat: Croata'; Illyricus, i. Croata: æ
hrrivaçia. Hervarska zemglja: Croatia; Illyris, dis. Illyricum; ci. Croatia, æ
For those who don't know, the source site (of that image) is www.ihjj.hr is The Institute of Croatian Language and Linguistics (more in English
http://www.ihjj.hr/index_en.html).
Changes like this one ("still non existing Croatian language"),
[41] is bad intension, anti-Croat chauvinism and blatant lie..
Giove could see materials and links I've posted half a year ago (or more) on the
Talk:Republic of Dubrovnik, sections:
- "title"
[42],
- "Slavic language"
[43],
- "For those who doubt about Croathood of Dubrovnik"
[44],
- "Illyrian language"
[45],
- "Croathood of Dubrovnik and translations"
[46]
- "Croats' dialects in old Dubrovnik Republic"
[47],
- "The name of the country"
[48]
and probably on few more place repeated, there was a bunch of links to scanned pages of original documents. These scans are on the site of the Croatian National and University Library. Giove obviously ignores that source.
About standardization of Croatian language. Standardizations tries did existed, there were multiple solutions in use. Picture gets more complex, knowing that Croatian was, at that time, written in various sources in with four alphabets (Latin, Glagolitic, Croatian redaction of Cyrillic and Arabic) and depending of the foreign ruler (some ortographic solutions varied). Before Mikalja, currently are known two grammars (Bartol Kašić's Institutionem linguae illyricae libri duo from 1604 and Rajmund Džamanjić's Nauk za dobro pisati latinskijem slovima riječi jezika slovinskoga from 1639).
Regarding Giove's obsession with Italianizing of Croatian names/or presenting them in Italian form... Has he ever heard that in Hungarian sources, Faust Vrančić was mentioned as Verancsics? Old Hungarian sources haven't changed its Croat surname. Does that mean that medieval kingdom of Hungary was ruled by Croatian Communist POV-izers (with Tito on the top)?
Kubura (
talk) 10:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
This Giove's edit here is badintentional. In this unexplained revert from 14 Nov 2007, 23:05, Giove did this
[49]. Beside all above mentioned violations, here he has shown filtering of information.
The original line:
Mikalja's greatest work is Thesaurus of Croatian Language and Croatian Dictionary (where Croatian words are translated in Italian and Latin...
Giove replaces with this one:
Micaglia's greatest work is Thesaurus of Illyrian Language and Illyrian Dictionary (where Illyrian words are translated in Italian and Latin .
Original title of the work is :
"Blago jezika slovinskoga ili Slovnik u Komu izgovarajuse rjeci slovinske Latinski, i Diacki.".
At first, you don't see "Croatian" or "Italian" in the original. But, what are these "slovinski" and "dijacki"?
But, in the subtitle, text is like this:
"Thesaurus linguae Illyricae sive Dictionarium Illyricum. In quo verba Illyrica Italice, et Latine redduntur."
There, appears "Illyric" as translation for "slovinski", "Italian" as translation for "latinski", and "Latin" as translation for "dijacki" (!!).
Now, we need - where's Croatian? There we go to that scanned page.
[50]. Translation of Illyricus is "Croata, Hrvat" etc. (that means, the form Croatia was confirmed in Italian, right there).
But what Giove did? He translated the "Latinski and Dijacki" to "Italian and Latin", but he was intentionally hiding, intentionally filtering the adjective "Croatian"!.
Kubura (
talk) 10:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Also, the term "Serbo-Croatian" was used in dictionary name for the first time in 1867 by Pero Budmani (a linguist that belonged to hardline of anti-Croat politicians, that declared himself as Serb, and that swored that he'll go along the line of "Serbhood and Yugoslavhood"), 216 years after Mikalja's dictionary. Kubura ( talk) 11:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Molise Croats doesn't concern to Peschici: Peschici is in Apulia, not in Molise, and there's no Croatian settlment in Apulia, since XI century, even if there were reminiscences of language in the local dialect, witnessing the presence of Croatian.-- Theirrulez ( talk) 15:10, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
I know where Peschici is. Geography is completely beside the point. This is a Croatian person born in Peschici, so if there is a Croatian name for that town, its perfectly fine to list it as related information. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 20:44, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
-- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 10:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
# It's not a matter of using Croatian or Italian, but of following English usage & providing information to our readership.
- For the names of people and places, follow common English usage, regardless of whether the names commonly used in English are of Croatian, Italian, French, Greek or Chinese origin. For Wikipedia's purposes, the bias lies in using names different from those commonly used in English-language publications, not in using Croatian, Italian, French, Greek or Chinese names.
- City names: the basic criterion is to follow common English usage. In accordance to the naming conventions for geographic names (specifically, the 3rd general guideline), the city names used in this article should be consistent with the titles of the entries on each city. – However, readers need to understand that the names Dubrovnik & Ragusa (both necessarily used in an article related to the Republic of Ragusa) refer to the same place. I edited the lead section to read " Dubrovnik (Ragusa), in the Dalmatian coast of modern Croatia". In the same manner, I used the same format in the first mentions of Kotor (Cattaro) & Ston (Stagno), when referring to periods for which modern English-language literature regularly uses the Italian names.
-
This is the perfect example to what good wipedians shouldn't do. I'm really upset. Hundreds of hours trying to have a dialogue and one user, always the same, revert every other users' efforts to push is positions. DIREKTOR, you wrote somethin in contrast with reliable sources cited in the article. Why? Is it acceptable? Is it acceptable that you continue to act like that? Please, don't impose you POV always in every article you contribute... It's at least unfair.. -- Theirrulez ( talk) 16:29, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Nota Bene: Don't impose any changement to the article if u have not discussed it here and if you don't provide reliable sources.-- Theirrulez ( talk) 05:23, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
This revert, especially considering it was preceded by this edit dangerously borders on WP:POINT... You should always discuss before making potentially controversial changes (and I fear this one is). Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 17:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Astonishing. -- Theirrulez ( talk) 19:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Sirs, can someone kindly provide me a reasonable ground for which User:DIREKTOR and User:Kebeta auomatically cancel reliable sources like:
from the article, without any discussion HERE in the related talk page? Thanks, -- Theirrulez ( talk) 15:14, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
This is what i mean. =O -- Theirrulez ( talk) 15:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
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