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Added brief statement on New Jersey's religious objection provision to brain death law. I also found indication that New York has a similar law, but I didn’t include it because I’ve yet to find adequate reference for New York state law.-- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 17:27, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
I want to make it clear that my objection was based solely on the removal of the source/reference, and without prejudice to the idea that the section may need to be rewritten. The NEJM is an indisputable reliable source and is considered one of the gold standards of all academic journals - its articles are of notably high quality. Removing an indisputably relevant NEJM reference from this page cannot but lower its quality. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 03:19, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
Since the case occurred in a particular location which is named in the article, it follows that the events that occurred were constrained by the laws, statutes, and customs specific to that location. Even if an explanation of how this case might differ if it had occurred in another jurisdiction wasn't WP:OR, such a discussion is beyond the boundaries of the case and doesn't belong in this article.
In other words, this is an article about the case and what happened, not an article discussing what might have happened if something were different. Obviously if something like the location was different then things would happened differently. However, that they could possibly have been different doesn't mean that they deserve discussion in this article. Ca2james ( talk) 20:08, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I just went to a conference on medical ethics that discussed this. The issue as I see it is between the medicolegal definition of death and a particular religious definition of death.
Under the legal definition of death, which is generally the Uniform Determination of Death Act which most states have adopted, a person is dead if they have irreversible cessation of the entire brain, including the brain stem.
The overwhelming majority of doctors, and most laws, define brain death as death.
However, there are religious views that believe a person is still alive if the heart is still beating. There is a significant minority of doctors who believe that, and the state laws in New York and New Jersey accommodate that belief. I believe there were articles in the New York Times about that.
For example, there are orthodox Jews (and orthodox Jewish doctors) who believe a person is alive if the heart is beating. Ariel Sharon's family kept him alive for years, even though his doctors said that recovery was impossible and that most of his brain (though not his brain stem) was destroyed. Orthodox Jews are not a fringe view. There are also Christians who have similar views.
It's true that a judge decided that McMath was dead, and that an overwhelming majority of doctors would decide that she was dead given these facts.
However, that's not a religious opinion. The family has religious beliefs contrary to the judge and the doctors. The issue is, what are the rights of a family whose religious beliefs don't accept that determination? Do they have a right to move their daughter to the custody of doctors who do agree with their religious beliefs? Do they have the same rights as Ariel Sharon's family? If they found an institution willing to accommodate them, why didn't the hospital let them move her there? If there is discussion on that issue from WP:RSs, it belongs in the article. -- Nbauman ( talk) 17:40, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Not exactly. They were trying to move McMath somewhere - anywhere - and ended up moving her somewhere within California. The fact is, the New York destination was suggested not because of the laws in that state but because someone reached out to the family. Suggesting that New York's law should be included on that basis is WP:COATRACK. Ca2james ( talk) 02:21, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Sourced and relevant. Good work, BoboMeowCat. Thanks! NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 06:18, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
McMath's body is hooked to mechanical ventilation. It is unsourced and wrong to state that the tracheostomy was performed "so she can breathe without assistance." Mechanical ventilation is the very definition of assistance. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 15:41, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
So I guess NJ law is now relevant? 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 15:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
There's presently no proof of anything. There's only her family's word.
67.165.114.238 (
talk)
05:53, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
req. to move to talk page. so talk. I undid that last one because my browser was crashing and i had made a mistake by adding the same ref. twice while I had meant to add the Contra Costa Times reference. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 22:48, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
And as far as the "body"-edit that is currently on the way to edit-warring, the reason I removed it was because it was unnecessary and confusing. It also implied that McMath is (publicly known to be 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 23:00, 11 August 2014 (UTC)) a corpse, or clinically dead, which would misinform article readers. That is why I went back and added an internal link to clinical death, but I would be OK with just having the implicit, "body" removed. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 22:58, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
In other words-I am hoping that we can agree to use the word "body" only for publicly known clinically dead people to avoid misrepresentation and to follow WP:NPOV . For this article, if somewhere in the future, there is a valid announcement of Ms. Mcmath's clinical death, I think that it would be helpful to not refer to her as a (implied "dead") "body" for the time period where she is not known to be clinically deceased. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 23:05, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Ca2james- NorthBySouthBaranof did NOT say that because NorthBySouthBaranof knows that is NOT TRUE. Mcmath has not-as far as the public knows, been declared clinical death. Until proven otherwise, she is the same exact amount of "dead" that she was when she left the hospital, which was brain death. Also-for the record. if anyone can find any reliable reference that states ANYTHING about legal death and relates to this case? I recently noticed that we had sprinkled the term in the article here-BUT--the references do not back it up. (one instance I rm said that Judge Grillo had declared "legal death" when the article cited said NO SUCH THING! I have a problem using the term in the article in that case-but I could be wrong, so if there IS a good ref. for legal death and this specific case-where is it? And to NBSB--we went around about this already. The Coroner's declaration of "death" has never been completed or filed. So I think we have already answered: "Until and unless there is convincing and confirmed scientific evidence that the declaration of death was incorrect, that ruling is controlling."-----not "scientifically", just legally, not dead, or not dead since she has moved to NJ. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 22:05, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
"A death certificate is the same thing as legally dead" WP:OR no-in this case that is not what it meant at all, and if you look at the article which was referenced, Judge Grillo said that he found McMath to be "brain dead"--the words "legally dead" were not used. same with the other erroneously quoted ref. that I took out. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 22:23, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
CombatWombat42A:It doesn't matter how many people incorrectly tell me that I am wrong, it won't change the facts will it? The mentioned death certificate-we discussed that on this page, it was never completed so it is invalid-(not OR, a fact and there are refs. that back that up AFAIK). Unfortunately, it could even have been MY edits which were incorrect in this article as i did some work on it and there was some confusion. I'm not confused anymore. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 22:28, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
CombatWombat42 Everything you just said is not in dispute. Except for using the WP definition of legal death to define death, and to relate it to what was quoted by Judge Grillo- and that other item that I took out of the article which you keep trying to put back in. One-why is it so important for you to have it your way with that particular term? Everything else you have quoted would be fine as long as it is properly cited and not WP:OR, which in this case, using the term legal death IS WP:OR, especially when it is used as a QUOTE that was NEVER SAID. IMO legal death should probably be linked as see also 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 23:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't find the phrase "her body" a problem. "Her body" doesn't seem to imply she is alive or dead. Living people have bodies so do dead people. "The body" I'd think would be nonNPOV because "the body" unambiguously refers to a dead person./corpse, but I'm not sure I understand your objection to "her body". -- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 22:40, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
OK BoboMC-maybe to you use of the word "body" does not imply a corpse, but then why is it so important to some editors to keep it? "Her" body is preferable to me over "the" body, fine but in my opinion both are ambiguous and purposely misleading. It has been made clear here on this talk page and in the edit notes, that the only purpose for keeping "body", is to falsely imply that the child is a corpse rather than a patient who has been declared permanently brain dead. If the article can be made more neutral for all-sides, I am not against that either but it could get a lot more wordy and confusing. Also-again, in the event that Mcmath does suffer permanent cardiac death-(if she cardiac dies for good), having her correct state of being at that time in the article, will help finish the story of the case by giving the readers better context clues such-as, (while she was brain death, but still being maintained, and then if she does maintain clinical death....you know what I mean here! In the event of permanent cardiac death, the timeline will be much easier for readers to follow if we leave-OUT the "corpse-like"/body references, until if that becomes a part of the story.- 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 23:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Anybody have any good ideas where this can be arbitrated? Is there a good syntax MOS board? Seriously, it is pretty clear where most of the editors on this TP stand and I agree with moving-on to other articles, except that this is just wrong and it bothers me. Consensus does not apply if everyone is wrong, including myself-Is there anyone who can just NPOV this whole article? 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 23:59, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Um-yeah except that I am not wrong so it needs to be explained. Do you really think that by calling matters of fact-"fringe" that you are going to be correct here? "Body"-may be open to interpretation, but due to the fuss that is being made over keeping the term rather than avoiding it, I think that speaks for the motive and agenda of editors arguing to keep it. Since when is NPOV and properly quoted references and citations "fringe". What exactly do you mean by that anyways? My only agenda here is NPOV and a factually correct article. I am not arguing for anything "fringe" here period. Just the facts. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 01:37, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
I have tagged the offending sentences with disputed – discuss. Specifically, the items which continue to be warred:
The addition of these "legally dead" Legal death 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 02:01, 13 August 2014 (UTC) statements are based-on WP:OR and more importantly NOT supported by the cited references given.
If I am incorrect here I would really like to know how. My edits keep being reverted/undone, and I am being repeatedly told that 'consensus' is telling me that I am wrong-but I do not see it. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 01:30, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Request for assistance at NOR Noticeboard : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#Legal_Death_and_OR_in_Jahi_Mcmath_article 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 01:58, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
"Determination of Death. An individual who has sustained either
(1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or
(2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, is dead.
A determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical standards." (emphasis mine)
Please show me where it is stated that Grillo "ruled" that McMath was "legally" dead. Please show me where it is stated that McMath's family "was informed that she was legally dead". Can you please give a reliable source that confirms these statements? Anything less, and you are insisting that your long-winded synthesis of original research be included with citations and references that DO NOT SAY THAT 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 05:06, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
JFTR-I see no where in that article where the judge "declared", ruled, or said that in any way! We had the court docs. here at one point. The judges ruling is whatever the ruling says, which I am pretty sure is that he agreed with the doctors and the hospital that Mcmath had suffered brain death. Apparently that "declaration" of legal death, was OR, and a synthesis made by the NBC-affiliate. If you want to work that into the article-good luck, but there is still nothing to confirm or actually quote judge Grillo "declaring"-"legal death". I think that we may need to look at the ruling? But we decided here earlier that the rulings and court docs. were primary sources, so we left them out of the article. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 05:38, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
I have no problem introducing legal death in California, (but we already cleaned-up the article because of jurisdictional and global problems with the term being applied unilaterally) vs clinical death into the article. In fact in my opinion that is the cruxt (sp?) of the case. But attributing dialogues and apparent quotes, statements, conversations, and rulings, that are not referenced, except for one sensationalistic headline with nothing in the context to verify, is false. I would agree with the suggested ""On December 12, 2013, her doctors declared her brain-dead. Her family was informed that she was legally dead and that, as a result, life support systems would be removed". with, she was legally dead and that, as a result, being removed because we do not have a reference to this "legal death" information being conveyed to them. The statement paints a picture of a conversation happening that is not referenced anywhere as far as i can tell. The ref. that were cited stated that the family was notified that the hospital stated that they had the right to remove treatment, and the family decided to take it to court, and they won.Maybe the judge did rule "legal death"--but right now i don't know exactly where that specific ruling is and none of the references state that point clearly so why should WP? 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 05:54, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
YES-thank-you AddWittyNameHerethis ref. does fit with family being told that Jahi was legally dead. http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24773831/oakland-emotional-letter-from-jahi-mcmaths-mom-keep?source=pkg I am adding it at the appropriate spot. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 03:39, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Revisiting this page after recent edits made it pop up on my watchlist, I noticed that the lead stuck out as using a term not used by reliable sources. Specifically the phrase "....their efforts to maintain her body on mechanical ventilation". Reliable sources say efforts to maintain her body on "life support". They often even use phrase "life support" in the title:
In addition to following RS here, this is actually what the family was fighting for because life support includes the feeding tube and they were fighting for that along with the ventilator. This should be changed (but along with this change we should probably also add somewhere text regarding RS referring to "life support" as "death support" in this case. http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/28/health/life-support-ethics BoboMeowCat ( talk) 21:29, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
@ BoboMeowCat: I strongly disagree that "all that cover the issue use the phrase "life support" and none use the phrase "mechanical ventilation"".
That's just from the first five sources on this article. If you want me to, I'll happily comb through the remaining 39 sources, but I think this proves pretty clearly both why "life support" is problematic and that not quite all that cover the issue use "life support" as opposed to "ventilation", "mechanical ventilation" or a variation thereof. Most use a mixture, with exception of pieces that illustrate a strong opinion in one way or another (those that strongly feel McMath is alive and/or that the hospital is otherwise in the wrong use "life support" solely; most of those that strongly feel that McMath is dead, continued support of some kind is wrong and that the family is wrong or mistaken go out of their way to avoid "life support" out of direct quotations). I feel that NorthBySouthBaranof's solution of mentioning both is the most neutral we can use in a situation like this, as either use on its own either expresses or strongly suggests the expression of bias in one direction or the other. AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 18:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
This talk page is for improving this article, not for random discussions about the topic |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
So no one is currently saying that Rivers is "Brain Dead"-or if that has been determined-or not. But, aside from the fact that Rivers is a global celebrity, IF Rivers is permanently brain dead, Jahi and Joan would share a diagnoses and they both are on life-support machines. Being in NYC--it is startling to me how different the cultural attitude between the 2 cases are. In Jahi's case, people expressed disgust, claiming that Mcmath's family were trying to keep a "dead" corpse alive, wasting medical resources etc. In NYC---as per law there, "pulling-the-plug", is up to the patient or their family and a family would not be publicly castigated for prolonging the machines. For Jahi--that option had to be decided in court because by Ca law, the hospital gets to decide. Just thought I would post this here to illustrate the cultural differences and perceptions that editors should be aware-of. Being from NJ myself-as an editor, the cultural differences between the way the Mcmath case was described and how "pulling-the-plug" is left-up to the family in cases that I have known about here----well it was shocking to me in a way that California just seems to have an entirely different perspective. Not trying to forumize the talk page here just hoping to point-out that NPV will help the article and readers, especially considering culturally different backgrounds 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 18:08, 4 September 2014 (UTC) |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Added brief statement on New Jersey's religious objection provision to brain death law. I also found indication that New York has a similar law, but I didn’t include it because I’ve yet to find adequate reference for New York state law.-- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 17:27, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
I want to make it clear that my objection was based solely on the removal of the source/reference, and without prejudice to the idea that the section may need to be rewritten. The NEJM is an indisputable reliable source and is considered one of the gold standards of all academic journals - its articles are of notably high quality. Removing an indisputably relevant NEJM reference from this page cannot but lower its quality. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 03:19, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
Since the case occurred in a particular location which is named in the article, it follows that the events that occurred were constrained by the laws, statutes, and customs specific to that location. Even if an explanation of how this case might differ if it had occurred in another jurisdiction wasn't WP:OR, such a discussion is beyond the boundaries of the case and doesn't belong in this article.
In other words, this is an article about the case and what happened, not an article discussing what might have happened if something were different. Obviously if something like the location was different then things would happened differently. However, that they could possibly have been different doesn't mean that they deserve discussion in this article. Ca2james ( talk) 20:08, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I just went to a conference on medical ethics that discussed this. The issue as I see it is between the medicolegal definition of death and a particular religious definition of death.
Under the legal definition of death, which is generally the Uniform Determination of Death Act which most states have adopted, a person is dead if they have irreversible cessation of the entire brain, including the brain stem.
The overwhelming majority of doctors, and most laws, define brain death as death.
However, there are religious views that believe a person is still alive if the heart is still beating. There is a significant minority of doctors who believe that, and the state laws in New York and New Jersey accommodate that belief. I believe there were articles in the New York Times about that.
For example, there are orthodox Jews (and orthodox Jewish doctors) who believe a person is alive if the heart is beating. Ariel Sharon's family kept him alive for years, even though his doctors said that recovery was impossible and that most of his brain (though not his brain stem) was destroyed. Orthodox Jews are not a fringe view. There are also Christians who have similar views.
It's true that a judge decided that McMath was dead, and that an overwhelming majority of doctors would decide that she was dead given these facts.
However, that's not a religious opinion. The family has religious beliefs contrary to the judge and the doctors. The issue is, what are the rights of a family whose religious beliefs don't accept that determination? Do they have a right to move their daughter to the custody of doctors who do agree with their religious beliefs? Do they have the same rights as Ariel Sharon's family? If they found an institution willing to accommodate them, why didn't the hospital let them move her there? If there is discussion on that issue from WP:RSs, it belongs in the article. -- Nbauman ( talk) 17:40, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Not exactly. They were trying to move McMath somewhere - anywhere - and ended up moving her somewhere within California. The fact is, the New York destination was suggested not because of the laws in that state but because someone reached out to the family. Suggesting that New York's law should be included on that basis is WP:COATRACK. Ca2james ( talk) 02:21, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Sourced and relevant. Good work, BoboMeowCat. Thanks! NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 06:18, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
McMath's body is hooked to mechanical ventilation. It is unsourced and wrong to state that the tracheostomy was performed "so she can breathe without assistance." Mechanical ventilation is the very definition of assistance. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 15:41, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
So I guess NJ law is now relevant? 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 15:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
There's presently no proof of anything. There's only her family's word.
67.165.114.238 (
talk)
05:53, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
req. to move to talk page. so talk. I undid that last one because my browser was crashing and i had made a mistake by adding the same ref. twice while I had meant to add the Contra Costa Times reference. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 22:48, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
And as far as the "body"-edit that is currently on the way to edit-warring, the reason I removed it was because it was unnecessary and confusing. It also implied that McMath is (publicly known to be 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 23:00, 11 August 2014 (UTC)) a corpse, or clinically dead, which would misinform article readers. That is why I went back and added an internal link to clinical death, but I would be OK with just having the implicit, "body" removed. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 22:58, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
In other words-I am hoping that we can agree to use the word "body" only for publicly known clinically dead people to avoid misrepresentation and to follow WP:NPOV . For this article, if somewhere in the future, there is a valid announcement of Ms. Mcmath's clinical death, I think that it would be helpful to not refer to her as a (implied "dead") "body" for the time period where she is not known to be clinically deceased. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 23:05, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Ca2james- NorthBySouthBaranof did NOT say that because NorthBySouthBaranof knows that is NOT TRUE. Mcmath has not-as far as the public knows, been declared clinical death. Until proven otherwise, she is the same exact amount of "dead" that she was when she left the hospital, which was brain death. Also-for the record. if anyone can find any reliable reference that states ANYTHING about legal death and relates to this case? I recently noticed that we had sprinkled the term in the article here-BUT--the references do not back it up. (one instance I rm said that Judge Grillo had declared "legal death" when the article cited said NO SUCH THING! I have a problem using the term in the article in that case-but I could be wrong, so if there IS a good ref. for legal death and this specific case-where is it? And to NBSB--we went around about this already. The Coroner's declaration of "death" has never been completed or filed. So I think we have already answered: "Until and unless there is convincing and confirmed scientific evidence that the declaration of death was incorrect, that ruling is controlling."-----not "scientifically", just legally, not dead, or not dead since she has moved to NJ. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 22:05, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
"A death certificate is the same thing as legally dead" WP:OR no-in this case that is not what it meant at all, and if you look at the article which was referenced, Judge Grillo said that he found McMath to be "brain dead"--the words "legally dead" were not used. same with the other erroneously quoted ref. that I took out. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 22:23, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
CombatWombat42A:It doesn't matter how many people incorrectly tell me that I am wrong, it won't change the facts will it? The mentioned death certificate-we discussed that on this page, it was never completed so it is invalid-(not OR, a fact and there are refs. that back that up AFAIK). Unfortunately, it could even have been MY edits which were incorrect in this article as i did some work on it and there was some confusion. I'm not confused anymore. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 22:28, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
CombatWombat42 Everything you just said is not in dispute. Except for using the WP definition of legal death to define death, and to relate it to what was quoted by Judge Grillo- and that other item that I took out of the article which you keep trying to put back in. One-why is it so important for you to have it your way with that particular term? Everything else you have quoted would be fine as long as it is properly cited and not WP:OR, which in this case, using the term legal death IS WP:OR, especially when it is used as a QUOTE that was NEVER SAID. IMO legal death should probably be linked as see also 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 23:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't find the phrase "her body" a problem. "Her body" doesn't seem to imply she is alive or dead. Living people have bodies so do dead people. "The body" I'd think would be nonNPOV because "the body" unambiguously refers to a dead person./corpse, but I'm not sure I understand your objection to "her body". -- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 22:40, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
OK BoboMC-maybe to you use of the word "body" does not imply a corpse, but then why is it so important to some editors to keep it? "Her" body is preferable to me over "the" body, fine but in my opinion both are ambiguous and purposely misleading. It has been made clear here on this talk page and in the edit notes, that the only purpose for keeping "body", is to falsely imply that the child is a corpse rather than a patient who has been declared permanently brain dead. If the article can be made more neutral for all-sides, I am not against that either but it could get a lot more wordy and confusing. Also-again, in the event that Mcmath does suffer permanent cardiac death-(if she cardiac dies for good), having her correct state of being at that time in the article, will help finish the story of the case by giving the readers better context clues such-as, (while she was brain death, but still being maintained, and then if she does maintain clinical death....you know what I mean here! In the event of permanent cardiac death, the timeline will be much easier for readers to follow if we leave-OUT the "corpse-like"/body references, until if that becomes a part of the story.- 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 23:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Anybody have any good ideas where this can be arbitrated? Is there a good syntax MOS board? Seriously, it is pretty clear where most of the editors on this TP stand and I agree with moving-on to other articles, except that this is just wrong and it bothers me. Consensus does not apply if everyone is wrong, including myself-Is there anyone who can just NPOV this whole article? 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 23:59, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Um-yeah except that I am not wrong so it needs to be explained. Do you really think that by calling matters of fact-"fringe" that you are going to be correct here? "Body"-may be open to interpretation, but due to the fuss that is being made over keeping the term rather than avoiding it, I think that speaks for the motive and agenda of editors arguing to keep it. Since when is NPOV and properly quoted references and citations "fringe". What exactly do you mean by that anyways? My only agenda here is NPOV and a factually correct article. I am not arguing for anything "fringe" here period. Just the facts. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 01:37, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
I have tagged the offending sentences with disputed – discuss. Specifically, the items which continue to be warred:
The addition of these "legally dead" Legal death 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 02:01, 13 August 2014 (UTC) statements are based-on WP:OR and more importantly NOT supported by the cited references given.
If I am incorrect here I would really like to know how. My edits keep being reverted/undone, and I am being repeatedly told that 'consensus' is telling me that I am wrong-but I do not see it. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 01:30, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Request for assistance at NOR Noticeboard : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#Legal_Death_and_OR_in_Jahi_Mcmath_article 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 01:58, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
"Determination of Death. An individual who has sustained either
(1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or
(2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, is dead.
A determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical standards." (emphasis mine)
Please show me where it is stated that Grillo "ruled" that McMath was "legally" dead. Please show me where it is stated that McMath's family "was informed that she was legally dead". Can you please give a reliable source that confirms these statements? Anything less, and you are insisting that your long-winded synthesis of original research be included with citations and references that DO NOT SAY THAT 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 05:06, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
JFTR-I see no where in that article where the judge "declared", ruled, or said that in any way! We had the court docs. here at one point. The judges ruling is whatever the ruling says, which I am pretty sure is that he agreed with the doctors and the hospital that Mcmath had suffered brain death. Apparently that "declaration" of legal death, was OR, and a synthesis made by the NBC-affiliate. If you want to work that into the article-good luck, but there is still nothing to confirm or actually quote judge Grillo "declaring"-"legal death". I think that we may need to look at the ruling? But we decided here earlier that the rulings and court docs. were primary sources, so we left them out of the article. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 05:38, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
I have no problem introducing legal death in California, (but we already cleaned-up the article because of jurisdictional and global problems with the term being applied unilaterally) vs clinical death into the article. In fact in my opinion that is the cruxt (sp?) of the case. But attributing dialogues and apparent quotes, statements, conversations, and rulings, that are not referenced, except for one sensationalistic headline with nothing in the context to verify, is false. I would agree with the suggested ""On December 12, 2013, her doctors declared her brain-dead. Her family was informed that she was legally dead and that, as a result, life support systems would be removed". with, she was legally dead and that, as a result, being removed because we do not have a reference to this "legal death" information being conveyed to them. The statement paints a picture of a conversation happening that is not referenced anywhere as far as i can tell. The ref. that were cited stated that the family was notified that the hospital stated that they had the right to remove treatment, and the family decided to take it to court, and they won.Maybe the judge did rule "legal death"--but right now i don't know exactly where that specific ruling is and none of the references state that point clearly so why should WP? 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 05:54, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
YES-thank-you AddWittyNameHerethis ref. does fit with family being told that Jahi was legally dead. http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24773831/oakland-emotional-letter-from-jahi-mcmaths-mom-keep?source=pkg I am adding it at the appropriate spot. 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 03:39, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Revisiting this page after recent edits made it pop up on my watchlist, I noticed that the lead stuck out as using a term not used by reliable sources. Specifically the phrase "....their efforts to maintain her body on mechanical ventilation". Reliable sources say efforts to maintain her body on "life support". They often even use phrase "life support" in the title:
In addition to following RS here, this is actually what the family was fighting for because life support includes the feeding tube and they were fighting for that along with the ventilator. This should be changed (but along with this change we should probably also add somewhere text regarding RS referring to "life support" as "death support" in this case. http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/28/health/life-support-ethics BoboMeowCat ( talk) 21:29, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
@ BoboMeowCat: I strongly disagree that "all that cover the issue use the phrase "life support" and none use the phrase "mechanical ventilation"".
That's just from the first five sources on this article. If you want me to, I'll happily comb through the remaining 39 sources, but I think this proves pretty clearly both why "life support" is problematic and that not quite all that cover the issue use "life support" as opposed to "ventilation", "mechanical ventilation" or a variation thereof. Most use a mixture, with exception of pieces that illustrate a strong opinion in one way or another (those that strongly feel McMath is alive and/or that the hospital is otherwise in the wrong use "life support" solely; most of those that strongly feel that McMath is dead, continued support of some kind is wrong and that the family is wrong or mistaken go out of their way to avoid "life support" out of direct quotations). I feel that NorthBySouthBaranof's solution of mentioning both is the most neutral we can use in a situation like this, as either use on its own either expresses or strongly suggests the expression of bias in one direction or the other. AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 18:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
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So no one is currently saying that Rivers is "Brain Dead"-or if that has been determined-or not. But, aside from the fact that Rivers is a global celebrity, IF Rivers is permanently brain dead, Jahi and Joan would share a diagnoses and they both are on life-support machines. Being in NYC--it is startling to me how different the cultural attitude between the 2 cases are. In Jahi's case, people expressed disgust, claiming that Mcmath's family were trying to keep a "dead" corpse alive, wasting medical resources etc. In NYC---as per law there, "pulling-the-plug", is up to the patient or their family and a family would not be publicly castigated for prolonging the machines. For Jahi--that option had to be decided in court because by Ca law, the hospital gets to decide. Just thought I would post this here to illustrate the cultural differences and perceptions that editors should be aware-of. Being from NJ myself-as an editor, the cultural differences between the way the Mcmath case was described and how "pulling-the-plug" is left-up to the family in cases that I have known about here----well it was shocking to me in a way that California just seems to have an entirely different perspective. Not trying to forumize the talk page here just hoping to point-out that NPV will help the article and readers, especially considering culturally different backgrounds 24.0.133.234 ( talk) 18:08, 4 September 2014 (UTC) |