This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
I think the text of this entry is extremely misleading. There is no discussion of any of Derrida's texts or ideas and just a series of quotes from Derrida's critics. It should at least make some attempt to be even-handed.
I deleted the following sentence:
As the article on Fashionable Nonsense states, Sokal and Bricmont planned to do this, but eventually dropped the idea. In fact, on page 7 of the book, they write
Jitse Niesen 22:20, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the help so far. Not bad for a first draft. The following is part laundry list, part proposed guideline for the work that remains to be done.
Re: NPOV edits. I can buy some but not others and would like to provide some guidelines going forward. This being philosophy, judgement by poorly defined interpretive community ("some", "many") does not seem well-suited. The author of the entry has a responsibility characterize areas of disagreement and to either name sources and/or note a lack of consensus while providing a reasonably precise characterization of the involved parties (although one may be tempted to say "some people don't like Derrida for any discernible reason", Derrida responds to his critics with a good deal more precision). Qualifying an interpretation, however, which is ultimately reflects the author's understanding of the material with a reference to a consensus that may not exist or, more importantly, is judged against an unspecified interpretive community is not helpful, if not misleading and irresponsible (in a sense which is very particular to the subject matter). (Incidentally, this point seems to me entirely consistent with the point made explicit by Bennington with respect to signatures in "Spirit's Spirit Spirits Spirit", where incidentally he does provide some response to the question I quoted.) I need to continue to work over the entry to carry this through (I'm not happy, for example. with the claim that objections to Derrida tend to come from analytic philosophers and scientists or philosophers of science and would like to characterize this more precisely, which brings me to the next point).
There are a number of semi-editorial formulations which you have removed which I intend to re-work and reinstate. The comments about the import and export of philosophies, the protocol of national and international conferences, and Heidegger's more or less explicit disinheritance of English- and French-language readers are matters of varyingly explicit concern to Derrida which I am more than happy to draw out by way of commentary to the "Ends of Man", mention of Derrida's unpublished seminar work on philosophical nationalism , and reference to Lyotard's term geophilosophy in the debates "amongst friends" over Heidegger (which reminds that I need to add refs to the Lacoue-Labarthe and Lyotard books and make an explicit reference to Bennington's "Forever Friends"). These need to be worked out, but I consider this a matter of authorial/interpretive decision particular to the subject matter. Be gentle and feel free to throw this out for discussion and deliberation.
I see the need to break up the article into sections, but I'm not particularly happy with the first cut at organization. That'll need some work.
There have been some comments about contributions to the "deconstruction" page. Not sure what to do about that just yet. Talking about "deconstruction" in the singular without prefixing "Derridean" or "de Manian" or what have you seems to lack caution. For the time being I prefer to offer a definition under the proper name "Derrida". There's already some occasion to talk about the distinctions (via the references to Bennington and Ronell, who has talks about Lyotard's reservations about non-Derridean deconstruction in the text immediately proceeding my quote, and hasty summary of the arguments between Derrida, Lyotard, and Lacoue-Labarthe over Heidegger), but I don't feel entirely prepared to do this just yet.
Feedback?
Buffyg 15:53, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I took out the following sentence:
I believe that his "involvement" in May 1968 was as much as many of his colleagues; it might be more accurate to say he had a different perspective on it than many of his colleagues; certainly he met Blanchot during a protest at this time, and his essay "Ends of Man" was written at this time; I think it's inaccurate to say it is only influenced by the vietnam war (though certainly that was an important issue that spring; witness Chicago). It would be fair to say he was influenced by events in Czechoslovakia that month as well. I'm not an expert on this question but I'm certain the original entry is misleading.
Buffyg 00:29, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The Current events page lists Derrida's death on October 9, while this page says it was October 8. Which is correct? roozbeh 22:12, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
He died on the 8th (yesterday), and it was announced the 9th (today). -- Rbellin 23:22, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(I'm removing a bad joke anonymously posted here -- it seems in especially poor taste to poke fun at the recently deceased. Rbellin 21:30, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC))
He died "during the night Friday to Saturday", that is the 9th (I guess after midnight we may say it another day). According to Deusche welle ( http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1354775,00.html) ("Er starb in der Nacht zum Samstag ") and Le Monde ( http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3382,36-382445,0.html) (mort dans la nuit de vendredi à samedi). See French Wikipedia version too. France Info radio said on Saturday ( http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6458805)
English news seems to prefer the 8th. According to the Gardian ( http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/politicsphilosophyandsociety/story/0,6000,1324454,00.html) he died on Friday (BBC too : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3729844.stm). As Paris is one hour ahead of London, are we in front of a timeline split problem? At what time did he died? between midnight and 1 AM? That may explain why English/American news stay one day behind...
Jerusalem post said he died over the week end ( http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1097383710746)
I guess we should take Paris time... MartinLessard
I am a bit suspicious of the closeness of this paragraph to the New York Times obituary (page 3). The same claims about the de Man affair, and the same quotes. Is this close enough to be possible infringement? I don't know. (In addition, this probably belongs in the Paul de Man article, not the Derrida one, and it shows a pretty shallow understanding of the issues in any case. This blogger takes it as an example of manifest anti-intellectualism from the Times, and I am inclined to agree.)-- Rbellin 21:57, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Like it says
no personal attacks. Particularly singled out are edit summaries.
Charles Matthews 18:42, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've taken the opportunity to Remove personal attacks from this discussion, and also commented on the anonymous user's Talk page. I hope we can pursue the shared goal of creating better articles in a friendly spirit and refrain from further hostility. -- Rbellin 20:12, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
I think the text of this entry is extremely misleading. There is no discussion of any of Derrida's texts or ideas and just a series of quotes from Derrida's critics. It should at least make some attempt to be even-handed.
I deleted the following sentence:
As the article on Fashionable Nonsense states, Sokal and Bricmont planned to do this, but eventually dropped the idea. In fact, on page 7 of the book, they write
Jitse Niesen 22:20, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the help so far. Not bad for a first draft. The following is part laundry list, part proposed guideline for the work that remains to be done.
Re: NPOV edits. I can buy some but not others and would like to provide some guidelines going forward. This being philosophy, judgement by poorly defined interpretive community ("some", "many") does not seem well-suited. The author of the entry has a responsibility characterize areas of disagreement and to either name sources and/or note a lack of consensus while providing a reasonably precise characterization of the involved parties (although one may be tempted to say "some people don't like Derrida for any discernible reason", Derrida responds to his critics with a good deal more precision). Qualifying an interpretation, however, which is ultimately reflects the author's understanding of the material with a reference to a consensus that may not exist or, more importantly, is judged against an unspecified interpretive community is not helpful, if not misleading and irresponsible (in a sense which is very particular to the subject matter). (Incidentally, this point seems to me entirely consistent with the point made explicit by Bennington with respect to signatures in "Spirit's Spirit Spirits Spirit", where incidentally he does provide some response to the question I quoted.) I need to continue to work over the entry to carry this through (I'm not happy, for example. with the claim that objections to Derrida tend to come from analytic philosophers and scientists or philosophers of science and would like to characterize this more precisely, which brings me to the next point).
There are a number of semi-editorial formulations which you have removed which I intend to re-work and reinstate. The comments about the import and export of philosophies, the protocol of national and international conferences, and Heidegger's more or less explicit disinheritance of English- and French-language readers are matters of varyingly explicit concern to Derrida which I am more than happy to draw out by way of commentary to the "Ends of Man", mention of Derrida's unpublished seminar work on philosophical nationalism , and reference to Lyotard's term geophilosophy in the debates "amongst friends" over Heidegger (which reminds that I need to add refs to the Lacoue-Labarthe and Lyotard books and make an explicit reference to Bennington's "Forever Friends"). These need to be worked out, but I consider this a matter of authorial/interpretive decision particular to the subject matter. Be gentle and feel free to throw this out for discussion and deliberation.
I see the need to break up the article into sections, but I'm not particularly happy with the first cut at organization. That'll need some work.
There have been some comments about contributions to the "deconstruction" page. Not sure what to do about that just yet. Talking about "deconstruction" in the singular without prefixing "Derridean" or "de Manian" or what have you seems to lack caution. For the time being I prefer to offer a definition under the proper name "Derrida". There's already some occasion to talk about the distinctions (via the references to Bennington and Ronell, who has talks about Lyotard's reservations about non-Derridean deconstruction in the text immediately proceeding my quote, and hasty summary of the arguments between Derrida, Lyotard, and Lacoue-Labarthe over Heidegger), but I don't feel entirely prepared to do this just yet.
Feedback?
Buffyg 15:53, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I took out the following sentence:
I believe that his "involvement" in May 1968 was as much as many of his colleagues; it might be more accurate to say he had a different perspective on it than many of his colleagues; certainly he met Blanchot during a protest at this time, and his essay "Ends of Man" was written at this time; I think it's inaccurate to say it is only influenced by the vietnam war (though certainly that was an important issue that spring; witness Chicago). It would be fair to say he was influenced by events in Czechoslovakia that month as well. I'm not an expert on this question but I'm certain the original entry is misleading.
Buffyg 00:29, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The Current events page lists Derrida's death on October 9, while this page says it was October 8. Which is correct? roozbeh 22:12, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
He died on the 8th (yesterday), and it was announced the 9th (today). -- Rbellin 23:22, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(I'm removing a bad joke anonymously posted here -- it seems in especially poor taste to poke fun at the recently deceased. Rbellin 21:30, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC))
He died "during the night Friday to Saturday", that is the 9th (I guess after midnight we may say it another day). According to Deusche welle ( http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1354775,00.html) ("Er starb in der Nacht zum Samstag ") and Le Monde ( http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3382,36-382445,0.html) (mort dans la nuit de vendredi à samedi). See French Wikipedia version too. France Info radio said on Saturday ( http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6458805)
English news seems to prefer the 8th. According to the Gardian ( http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/politicsphilosophyandsociety/story/0,6000,1324454,00.html) he died on Friday (BBC too : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3729844.stm). As Paris is one hour ahead of London, are we in front of a timeline split problem? At what time did he died? between midnight and 1 AM? That may explain why English/American news stay one day behind...
Jerusalem post said he died over the week end ( http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1097383710746)
I guess we should take Paris time... MartinLessard
I am a bit suspicious of the closeness of this paragraph to the New York Times obituary (page 3). The same claims about the de Man affair, and the same quotes. Is this close enough to be possible infringement? I don't know. (In addition, this probably belongs in the Paul de Man article, not the Derrida one, and it shows a pretty shallow understanding of the issues in any case. This blogger takes it as an example of manifest anti-intellectualism from the Times, and I am inclined to agree.)-- Rbellin 21:57, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Like it says
no personal attacks. Particularly singled out are edit summaries.
Charles Matthews 18:42, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've taken the opportunity to Remove personal attacks from this discussion, and also commented on the anonymous user's Talk page. I hope we can pursue the shared goal of creating better articles in a friendly spirit and refrain from further hostility. -- Rbellin 20:12, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)