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So if I get drunk at a frat party, or I get delerious from walking for days on end without food and water in the desert and start to hallucinate, and I then wrestle with some guy, and ask for his blessing, I too can wrestle with god or an angel?
Citations needed of eyewitness first person testimony to prove this guy actually wrestled with god or an angel, or I move for deletion as unsubstantiated rubbish, from a single source. 17:14, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. Jafeluv ( talk) 00:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Jacob wrestling with the Angel → Jacob wrestling with the angel – angel is not a proper noun, the article title is not in title case JFH ( talk) 18:02, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
After reading the Passage in English, and Spanish, its clear for me that Jacob fought against God itself or at least an instance of him. The Idea of an Angel its and interpretation, and in the text its clear (from someone without religious blinders) that Jacob was wrestling with the God of Israel. 200.48.214.19 ( talk) 16:19, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Wrestling with an angel is a secondary interpretation and should not appear in the title. The title should be either 'wrestling with God' or 'Jacob's wrestling match'. The current title is far too inaccessible to the layman who is unfamiliar with the Bible. It is also assertive of a point of view which is less accepted among scholars. Grathmy ( talk) 20:16, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I would like to know why my edits are constantly being reverted. In the Genesis Jacob wrestles with a being who can be considered God. This is the main interpretation and the most parsimonious one. My changes do not divert from mainstream opinion. Additionally a title change should be made to wrestling with God. Grathmy ( talk) 21:00, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved back to previously agreed title. Andrewa ( talk) 17:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Jacob wrestling with an angel → Jacob's wrestling match – This name is more neutral, as it avoids specifying whether it was a man, an angel, or God himself. It's also used quite extensively - I got 1,600 results in Google Books. St Anselm ( talk) 22:53, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
"Jacob wrestles God" is an extremely common interpretation of this story. I don't understand why it's so downplayed. The article title is also simply bad, since it immediately picks a side. The previous RM was handled poorly because some users claimed that this was established in a previous RM/consensus, when that RM was only about whether to capitalize "angel"... Needs a tag for now. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) ( talk) 12:28, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved - there is strong opposition to the proposed move. ( non-admin closure) Fuortu ( talk) 14:22, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Jacob wrestling with the angel → Jacob's wrestling incident – Per the article's talk page and the article itself, it is nowhere near universally accepted that Jacob wrestled an angel. Truth be toad ( talk) 10:35, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
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I've posted to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Muslim_view_of_Jacob_wrestling_with_the_angel. Happy for comments there. Please keep discussion in one place. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 09:31, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
The previous rename effort failed, in part, because people didn't like the proposed alternative; but the current one is clearly unusable. It clearly fails the naming policy, since sources disagree on what Jacob wrestled with; even if you accept that it's the WP:COMMONNAME (which I do not, since the paintings and other adaptations are not the topic of this article), WP:COMMONNAME states that '"ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered; our policy on neutral titles, and what neutrality in titles is, follows in the next section." The current title is clearly not neutral; the article describes a serious and ongoing debate about the meaning, which means we must rename it even if this is the common name for the story. I would also suggest that, when we do choose a name and run an RFC, that we broadcast it more widely; most of the previous ones had comparatively low participation. I don't see any way to satisfy WP:NPOV, at the very least, without changing it, and the previous rename attempt (over six months ago) was clearly flawed because most of the !votes cited WP:COMMONNAME as if it allowed us to ignore WP:NPOV in titles, when it explicitly says it does not. -- Aquillion ( talk) 03:43, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
@ Aquillion: I see no problem in supporting your effort, and i totally agree with your arguments. Truth be toad ( talk) 04:11, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
Is the page primarily about the bible verse, or primarily about the artistic represenations? Power~enwiki ( talk) 04:16, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
To meet NPOV why don't we rename it "Jacob Wrestling with the Angel-God-thingamajiggy" and call it a day! Truth be toad ( talk) 04:49, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
As a completely different suggestion, the "New Life Version" of the Bible uses "Jacob’s Name Is Changed to Israel" as a heading. I doubt that the artistic works would need a separate page; Saint Sebastian doesn't have a sub-page for art. Power~enwiki ( talk) 05:18, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Ridiculous story, possibly, but how is it from the "Christian Bible" (generally used to mean the New Testament collection)? Is the source appropriate and the sentence reflecting it? I cannot access the source, only its table of contents. If it is a notable enough claim, we could probably also find another reference by a respected scholar who would clarify or criticize it. If it is a quote, we should probably quote it directly... — Paleo Neonate - 09:33, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
Done Section removed for now. Thanks, — Paleo Neonate - 23:17, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
My addition of Ibn Kathir's story of Yaqub to the Muslim interpretation was rejected as "Removed inconsequential Ibn Kathir view. Cite shows he is simply reproducing the biblical account." First, the fact that biblical stories were incorporated into the Muslim tradition was not inconsequential, and Ibn Kathir's stories of the prophets are well-known. The cite shows that there is a Muslim interpretation to this. Biblical stories are also in the Koran. Does that mean parts of the Koran are not Muslim? Second, he does not simply reproduce the biblical account. The Hebrew refers to Jacob's encounter with an "ish", a man. In Ibn Kathir's account: "When the dawn of the second day came one of the angels appeared in the shape of a man. Jacob began to wrestle with him. They were neck and neck until the angel injured his thigh and Jacob became lame." StarryGrandma ( talk) 16:47, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
@ StarryGrandma, Dbachmann, PaleoNeonate, and Jytdog: I will attempt one last time to get a response here to my simple request: please prove that Ibn Kathir is doing more than quoting the Bible story word for word in the reference. If i do not get a response then i will take this issue up on a noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. -- Truth be toad ( talk) 06:44, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Could this article not simply be shortened to the jewish accunt on this verse? Since judaism hold, elohim refers here to an angel (acutally elohim is in jewish thought not equal to God, but means "force" also refering to kings, angels, God(s) and so on)-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 19:34, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
Not particularly christian and it is not clear to me if Guiley is a credible or a pusher of woo......
According to popular author Rosemary Ellen Guiley, "This dramatic scene has spurred much commentary from Judaic, Catholic, and Protestant theologians, biblical scholars, and literary critics. Does Jacob wrestle with God or with an angel?...There is no definitive answer, but the story has been rationalized, romanticized, treated as myth, and treated symbolically." [1]
References
-- Jytdog ( talk) 16:45, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
"Following the escalation he was politically and academically isolated, which led to his leaving the country (GDR) in 1961. But his philosophy of hope was kept alive in the GDR, especially in oppositional circles." From 1961 Bloch was no more a "Marxist philosopher". Source: Ernst Bloch in der DDR September 2013 Deutsche Zeitschrift für Philosophie 61(4) DOI:10.1524/dzph.2013.61.4.561
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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So if I get drunk at a frat party, or I get delerious from walking for days on end without food and water in the desert and start to hallucinate, and I then wrestle with some guy, and ask for his blessing, I too can wrestle with god or an angel?
Citations needed of eyewitness first person testimony to prove this guy actually wrestled with god or an angel, or I move for deletion as unsubstantiated rubbish, from a single source. 17:14, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. Jafeluv ( talk) 00:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Jacob wrestling with the Angel → Jacob wrestling with the angel – angel is not a proper noun, the article title is not in title case JFH ( talk) 18:02, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
After reading the Passage in English, and Spanish, its clear for me that Jacob fought against God itself or at least an instance of him. The Idea of an Angel its and interpretation, and in the text its clear (from someone without religious blinders) that Jacob was wrestling with the God of Israel. 200.48.214.19 ( talk) 16:19, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Wrestling with an angel is a secondary interpretation and should not appear in the title. The title should be either 'wrestling with God' or 'Jacob's wrestling match'. The current title is far too inaccessible to the layman who is unfamiliar with the Bible. It is also assertive of a point of view which is less accepted among scholars. Grathmy ( talk) 20:16, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I would like to know why my edits are constantly being reverted. In the Genesis Jacob wrestles with a being who can be considered God. This is the main interpretation and the most parsimonious one. My changes do not divert from mainstream opinion. Additionally a title change should be made to wrestling with God. Grathmy ( talk) 21:00, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved back to previously agreed title. Andrewa ( talk) 17:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Jacob wrestling with an angel → Jacob's wrestling match – This name is more neutral, as it avoids specifying whether it was a man, an angel, or God himself. It's also used quite extensively - I got 1,600 results in Google Books. St Anselm ( talk) 22:53, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
"Jacob wrestles God" is an extremely common interpretation of this story. I don't understand why it's so downplayed. The article title is also simply bad, since it immediately picks a side. The previous RM was handled poorly because some users claimed that this was established in a previous RM/consensus, when that RM was only about whether to capitalize "angel"... Needs a tag for now. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) ( talk) 12:28, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved - there is strong opposition to the proposed move. ( non-admin closure) Fuortu ( talk) 14:22, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Jacob wrestling with the angel → Jacob's wrestling incident – Per the article's talk page and the article itself, it is nowhere near universally accepted that Jacob wrestled an angel. Truth be toad ( talk) 10:35, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
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I've posted to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Muslim_view_of_Jacob_wrestling_with_the_angel. Happy for comments there. Please keep discussion in one place. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 09:31, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
The previous rename effort failed, in part, because people didn't like the proposed alternative; but the current one is clearly unusable. It clearly fails the naming policy, since sources disagree on what Jacob wrestled with; even if you accept that it's the WP:COMMONNAME (which I do not, since the paintings and other adaptations are not the topic of this article), WP:COMMONNAME states that '"ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered; our policy on neutral titles, and what neutrality in titles is, follows in the next section." The current title is clearly not neutral; the article describes a serious and ongoing debate about the meaning, which means we must rename it even if this is the common name for the story. I would also suggest that, when we do choose a name and run an RFC, that we broadcast it more widely; most of the previous ones had comparatively low participation. I don't see any way to satisfy WP:NPOV, at the very least, without changing it, and the previous rename attempt (over six months ago) was clearly flawed because most of the !votes cited WP:COMMONNAME as if it allowed us to ignore WP:NPOV in titles, when it explicitly says it does not. -- Aquillion ( talk) 03:43, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
@ Aquillion: I see no problem in supporting your effort, and i totally agree with your arguments. Truth be toad ( talk) 04:11, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
Is the page primarily about the bible verse, or primarily about the artistic represenations? Power~enwiki ( talk) 04:16, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
To meet NPOV why don't we rename it "Jacob Wrestling with the Angel-God-thingamajiggy" and call it a day! Truth be toad ( talk) 04:49, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
As a completely different suggestion, the "New Life Version" of the Bible uses "Jacob’s Name Is Changed to Israel" as a heading. I doubt that the artistic works would need a separate page; Saint Sebastian doesn't have a sub-page for art. Power~enwiki ( talk) 05:18, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Ridiculous story, possibly, but how is it from the "Christian Bible" (generally used to mean the New Testament collection)? Is the source appropriate and the sentence reflecting it? I cannot access the source, only its table of contents. If it is a notable enough claim, we could probably also find another reference by a respected scholar who would clarify or criticize it. If it is a quote, we should probably quote it directly... — Paleo Neonate - 09:33, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
Done Section removed for now. Thanks, — Paleo Neonate - 23:17, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
My addition of Ibn Kathir's story of Yaqub to the Muslim interpretation was rejected as "Removed inconsequential Ibn Kathir view. Cite shows he is simply reproducing the biblical account." First, the fact that biblical stories were incorporated into the Muslim tradition was not inconsequential, and Ibn Kathir's stories of the prophets are well-known. The cite shows that there is a Muslim interpretation to this. Biblical stories are also in the Koran. Does that mean parts of the Koran are not Muslim? Second, he does not simply reproduce the biblical account. The Hebrew refers to Jacob's encounter with an "ish", a man. In Ibn Kathir's account: "When the dawn of the second day came one of the angels appeared in the shape of a man. Jacob began to wrestle with him. They were neck and neck until the angel injured his thigh and Jacob became lame." StarryGrandma ( talk) 16:47, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
@ StarryGrandma, Dbachmann, PaleoNeonate, and Jytdog: I will attempt one last time to get a response here to my simple request: please prove that Ibn Kathir is doing more than quoting the Bible story word for word in the reference. If i do not get a response then i will take this issue up on a noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. -- Truth be toad ( talk) 06:44, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Could this article not simply be shortened to the jewish accunt on this verse? Since judaism hold, elohim refers here to an angel (acutally elohim is in jewish thought not equal to God, but means "force" also refering to kings, angels, God(s) and so on)-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 19:34, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
Not particularly christian and it is not clear to me if Guiley is a credible or a pusher of woo......
According to popular author Rosemary Ellen Guiley, "This dramatic scene has spurred much commentary from Judaic, Catholic, and Protestant theologians, biblical scholars, and literary critics. Does Jacob wrestle with God or with an angel?...There is no definitive answer, but the story has been rationalized, romanticized, treated as myth, and treated symbolically." [1]
References
-- Jytdog ( talk) 16:45, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
"Following the escalation he was politically and academically isolated, which led to his leaving the country (GDR) in 1961. But his philosophy of hope was kept alive in the GDR, especially in oppositional circles." From 1961 Bloch was no more a "Marxist philosopher". Source: Ernst Bloch in der DDR September 2013 Deutsche Zeitschrift für Philosophie 61(4) DOI:10.1524/dzph.2013.61.4.561