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This claim seems dubious and unrelated to "Jack Mormon":
Before reinserting this line, please give some references. Also explain why this concept is related to Jack Mormon.
WpZurp 4 July 2005 16:09 (UTC)
I find the following paragraph to be dubious, but I haven't removed it from the article:
I personally know some families of "Jack Mormons". I haven't discussed with them why they are, what we call "inactive" (non-attending), mostly because they are from an older generation; I used to play with their children. I know that one of the parents regularly drinks beer. Their children were baptized but "inactive" as long as I knew them, and I assume that they still are; they have long since moved away. But in the 40+ years that I've known them, they have been "inactive" and are still members of the church. The paragraph that I highlighted above gives the wrong impression about maintaining membership for such people.
What I think that you are meaning to discuss are those, who in other churches would be called "heretics". That is not a term that I have heard used inside the CoJCoLDS to refer to such individuals, but I haven't known any such persons personally. So as not to confuse the issue, I think that this paragraph needs to be reworded. Perhaps it would be best to link to "Related Terms" such as "New Order Mormons". Val42 July 4, 2005 21:55 (UTC)
I believe the history of the term is incorrect, but don't have sources to my opinion, but leave it to, "I believe I read somewhere." That said, I believe I read somewhere that the term Jack Mormon originated as a pejorative term used by Mormons residing in Kirkland Ohio to refer to the Mormons in Jackson County Missouri, whom the Kirkland Mormons viewed as less orthodox or devout. Does anyone have any input? 207.175.209.1 01:07, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
November 2005 (UTC)
I'm digging deep in Seminary memory for this one -- but isn't the term "jack" related to the term "jack" (and "jenny") for mules? Calling something a "jack" (in the nineteenth century) meant it had the general appearance of the real thing, but was actually different in a significant way, i.e. "A mule is not a horse - but sure looks like one." And -- as used by critics of Mormons and friends of Mormons -- it had a meaning approaching the word "jackass." The Mormons evidently adopted the term and put a positive spin on it (as they did with "Mormon"). I have no source. Anyone else remember something like this? WBardwin 05:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
This all seems rather irrelevant to the purpose of wikipedia and to Latter-Day Saints in general. As far as I can tell, there is no general agreement on what this term means now, anyway (I refuse to use it, myself). When I hear it, it sounds to me like former church member who will not associate with us now. I guess I am just too young to get it; anyway, I would recommend just making this an article for deletion and getting it out of here. -- Matthew 04:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
"When I hear it, it sounds to me like former church member who will not associate with us now." My great-grandmother was born into a family who had converted to and left Mormonism within a space of some thiry years ca. 1870-1900. In our family "Jack Mormon" has been used to describe this status as a former member, both as a factual term and as a term that carried a certain amount of pride for us, as well as a pejorative term for Mormon aquaintances. The lack of association was definitely two sided, both shunned and shunning. This article is largely written from a viewpoint which can be construed as an official LDS viewpoint; this may well be an NPOV problem.
"Cultural Mormon" might be problematic, but "Jack Mormon" is emphatically not a neologism unless 160 years is "coined recently". From the OED:
There's also a 1992 book titled In Mormon Circles: Gentiles, Jack Mormons, and Latter-Day Saints ISBN 0201608111. It's a term useful enough that reporters and authors have identified people as belonging to this group. Cool Hand Luke 23:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, this is a great article to have. Greenw47 ( talk) 13:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
since when? I don't think an anthropologist would agree with that definition. 15.251.169.70 15:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
The passage in the section about political usage "LDS Church membership was made up predominantly of liberal-leaning Democrats until the early 1900s, possibly due to anti-Mormon positions held by the Republican party during the latter half of the 19th Century" is unsourced, and I doubt its accuracy as the Democratic Party pre-New Deal was a predominantly conservative political party. Andrewlp1991 ( talk) 06:11, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
I recommend splitting this article into two articles. One would be Jack Mormon, the historical term, the other would be Inactive Mormon(s) (with or without the s, I don't care). I don't think I've ever heard the term Jack Mormon used in reference to inactive members or less-active members outside of Wikipedia. I am not familiar with sources on the subject, but Bushman's 2008 Mormonism: a very short introduction talks about the definition of being "active" in the church on pages 53-55, and talks about "inactive" members on page 107. "Jack," however, doesn't show up at all. I think the Wikipedia guideline WP:MOSNAME supports me in this. Thoughts? Adjwilley ( talk) 17:12, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm proud to be a Mormon. And ashamed to be the Jack Mormon that I am.
{{
citation}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help) --
208.81.184.4 (
talk)
20:31, 18 July 2011 (UTC)This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jack Mormon article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 25 November 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article was previously nominated for deletion. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
This claim seems dubious and unrelated to "Jack Mormon":
Before reinserting this line, please give some references. Also explain why this concept is related to Jack Mormon.
WpZurp 4 July 2005 16:09 (UTC)
I find the following paragraph to be dubious, but I haven't removed it from the article:
I personally know some families of "Jack Mormons". I haven't discussed with them why they are, what we call "inactive" (non-attending), mostly because they are from an older generation; I used to play with their children. I know that one of the parents regularly drinks beer. Their children were baptized but "inactive" as long as I knew them, and I assume that they still are; they have long since moved away. But in the 40+ years that I've known them, they have been "inactive" and are still members of the church. The paragraph that I highlighted above gives the wrong impression about maintaining membership for such people.
What I think that you are meaning to discuss are those, who in other churches would be called "heretics". That is not a term that I have heard used inside the CoJCoLDS to refer to such individuals, but I haven't known any such persons personally. So as not to confuse the issue, I think that this paragraph needs to be reworded. Perhaps it would be best to link to "Related Terms" such as "New Order Mormons". Val42 July 4, 2005 21:55 (UTC)
I believe the history of the term is incorrect, but don't have sources to my opinion, but leave it to, "I believe I read somewhere." That said, I believe I read somewhere that the term Jack Mormon originated as a pejorative term used by Mormons residing in Kirkland Ohio to refer to the Mormons in Jackson County Missouri, whom the Kirkland Mormons viewed as less orthodox or devout. Does anyone have any input? 207.175.209.1 01:07, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
November 2005 (UTC)
I'm digging deep in Seminary memory for this one -- but isn't the term "jack" related to the term "jack" (and "jenny") for mules? Calling something a "jack" (in the nineteenth century) meant it had the general appearance of the real thing, but was actually different in a significant way, i.e. "A mule is not a horse - but sure looks like one." And -- as used by critics of Mormons and friends of Mormons -- it had a meaning approaching the word "jackass." The Mormons evidently adopted the term and put a positive spin on it (as they did with "Mormon"). I have no source. Anyone else remember something like this? WBardwin 05:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
This all seems rather irrelevant to the purpose of wikipedia and to Latter-Day Saints in general. As far as I can tell, there is no general agreement on what this term means now, anyway (I refuse to use it, myself). When I hear it, it sounds to me like former church member who will not associate with us now. I guess I am just too young to get it; anyway, I would recommend just making this an article for deletion and getting it out of here. -- Matthew 04:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
"When I hear it, it sounds to me like former church member who will not associate with us now." My great-grandmother was born into a family who had converted to and left Mormonism within a space of some thiry years ca. 1870-1900. In our family "Jack Mormon" has been used to describe this status as a former member, both as a factual term and as a term that carried a certain amount of pride for us, as well as a pejorative term for Mormon aquaintances. The lack of association was definitely two sided, both shunned and shunning. This article is largely written from a viewpoint which can be construed as an official LDS viewpoint; this may well be an NPOV problem.
"Cultural Mormon" might be problematic, but "Jack Mormon" is emphatically not a neologism unless 160 years is "coined recently". From the OED:
There's also a 1992 book titled In Mormon Circles: Gentiles, Jack Mormons, and Latter-Day Saints ISBN 0201608111. It's a term useful enough that reporters and authors have identified people as belonging to this group. Cool Hand Luke 23:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, this is a great article to have. Greenw47 ( talk) 13:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
since when? I don't think an anthropologist would agree with that definition. 15.251.169.70 15:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
The passage in the section about political usage "LDS Church membership was made up predominantly of liberal-leaning Democrats until the early 1900s, possibly due to anti-Mormon positions held by the Republican party during the latter half of the 19th Century" is unsourced, and I doubt its accuracy as the Democratic Party pre-New Deal was a predominantly conservative political party. Andrewlp1991 ( talk) 06:11, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
I recommend splitting this article into two articles. One would be Jack Mormon, the historical term, the other would be Inactive Mormon(s) (with or without the s, I don't care). I don't think I've ever heard the term Jack Mormon used in reference to inactive members or less-active members outside of Wikipedia. I am not familiar with sources on the subject, but Bushman's 2008 Mormonism: a very short introduction talks about the definition of being "active" in the church on pages 53-55, and talks about "inactive" members on page 107. "Jack," however, doesn't show up at all. I think the Wikipedia guideline WP:MOSNAME supports me in this. Thoughts? Adjwilley ( talk) 17:12, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm proud to be a Mormon. And ashamed to be the Jack Mormon that I am.
{{
citation}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help) --
208.81.184.4 (
talk)
20:31, 18 July 2011 (UTC)