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Added list of ships commanded - references etc to come soon Duncan 21:40, 16 June 2007 (UTC) Are the page numbers in listed in Post Captain and M&C correct? Nate 15 Dec 2009-- 137.28.55.57 ( talk) 07:25, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Isn't Aubrey's name actually Jonathan? I seem to remember that Jack is just his nickname, and that he signed his letters "Jonathan" or "Jon."? Akerkhof 04:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, he signed his letters "Jno Aubrey", which I believe is an archaic abbreviation for Jonathon. Here is an example: image MdTrFn 18:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
You might want to check, but I don't think Aubrey was knighted. Unless it takes place in the book "21", which I have yet to read. Shadowmane20 19:21, 10 November 2007 (EST)
Jack is described as having a "Bath ribbon" (Order of the Bath) when he's in full dress/portrait as of Desolation Island. Presumably O'Brian meant for him to have been knighted for his role in the Mauritius Campaign (like the historical Josias Rowley) but he didn't want everyone calling Jack "Sir Jack". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.34.14 ( talk) 02:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure but I think its possible to be decorated with the Bath ribbon without earning the title of "Sir". Had Jack have been knighted, decorum would have required him to use the title. I seem to recall in the Ionian Mission there was a statement that he was to be Knighted but Andrew Wray caused him to be passed over. kjrjr —Preceding comment was added at 21:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
In order to have a sash of the Order of the Bath, you have to actually be a Knight Companion or higher, which is an automatic knighthood. I guess this is one of those frequent ommissions/inconsistencies that O'Brian tended to pepper in his work (for example in The Commodore, Clarissa Oakes mentions having been aboard the Nutmeg, when in Clarissa Oakes she only shows up aboard Surprise), but since Jack was up for a Baronetcy for his sinking of the Dutch 74 in Desolation Island (which was squished by Wray) I guess he might have been a K.B. at one point. It's possible, that like Cochrane, Jack was stripped of his knighthood for his role in the stock market fraud, and that Jack, who was never one for titles anyway, simply didn't care to be reinstated when he was exonerated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.97.252.227 ( talk) 09:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Specifically, where is Jack described as wearing a Bath ribbon? I can't find it anywhere. What I can find are numerous mentions that had it not been for Andrew Wray's malignancy he would have been knighted but was not. He is never refered to as "sir" any where in the series. My opinion is that the title along with the post nomial "KB" should be removed from the entry unless it can be demonstrated that it belongs there.[User:kjrjr|kjrjr]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.250.207.174 ( talk) 18:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I believe in 1815 King George granted Knighthood in the Order of the Bath to about 500 senior officers who served with distinction in the war against Napoleon. Surely Jack would've qualified for this, maybe POB inteneded to imply it in 21 by having Jack having the ribbon. 170.141.109.39 ( talk) 20:44, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Assigning Aubrey a title on the basis of a detail an unfinished, unpublished manuscript (21) is a case of assuming facts not strictly in evidence. At no point in any of the books published during O'Brian's lifetime is Aubrey referred to as "Sir John." Moreover doing so could potentially create confusion with the non-fictional Sir John Aubrey, a contemporary of the fictional Jack Aubrey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.212.64.170 ( talk) 14:55, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
219.89.14.249 ( talk) 07:39, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
To the many unsigned commenters above, look at Ref 8 in the article, which includes a quote from the start of Desolation Island, which is describing a painting done of the Captain, hanging in his home. There is reference to a sash from the order of the Bath. Whether the painter took license in the portrait is not said. I read it as summarizing the financial success Aubrey had in the prior book. -- Prairieplant ( talk) 04:00, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
I recall reading elsewhere that Cochrane did not like the pomp and perhaps pomposity of the Order of the Bath, so when he was stripped of it for his financial scandal, he was pleased. Bernard Cornwell has Cochrane as a character in one of the Sharpe series novels, and the character talks about how foolish the rituals were. If my memory is serving me well, might O'Brian be referring to this aspect of Cochrane's character, but in the way of Aubrey, he never talks about it? Aubrey never likes "showing away", Maturin observes more than once. -- Prairieplant ( talk) 06:03, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Cochrane on the other hand was already titled, albeit a courtesy title, and when he was reinstated did also take back his Order of the Bath. Dabbler ( talk) 12:33, 17 February 2015 (UTC)' The Jack Aubrey of King James’s time paid a thumping fine not to be a baronet, you know. Not that I mean the least fling against men who have won a great fleet action – it is right and proper that they should be peers – but when you look at the mass of titles, tradesmen, dirty politicians, moneylenders . . . why, I had as soon be plain Jack Aubrey – Captain Jack Aubrey, for I am as proud as Nebuchadnezzar of my service rank, and if ever I hoist my flag, I shall paint here lives Admiral Aubrey on the front of Ashgrove Cottage in huge letters. Do not think I am one of your wild democratical Jacobins, Stephen – do not run away with that notion – but different people look at these things in different lights.’
Hate to bring this up again, but someone changed the Order of the Bath that Jack was awarded. Now, I put the references in there from the text specifically to show that according to the text he had been awarded it. I don't know why O'Brian never followed it up, or never removed it "21", but that's pretty much speculation at this point. I think the comment below said it the best:
He would never have been called Sir Jack Aubrey. His Christian name was John and that would have been his title, if he had ever been awarded a knighthood. Also I wonder what your proposal actually adds to what is written in the current version of the article except a description of the changes in the Order which are never addressed in the books. Dabbler ( talk) 18:42, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Proposed change. Without any more objections will post this on Monday.... JMvanDijk ( talk)
"Captain Aubrey was resplendent in blue and gold; a Lloyd’s presentation sword hung at his side and the Nile medal from the fourth buttonhole of his coat, while the chelengk, a Turkish decoration in the form of a diamond aigrette, sparkled in his best gold-laced hat, worn nobly athwartships like Nelson’s; he had washed and shaved (a daily custom with him, even in very heavy weather), and his hair, having been rigorously brushed, clubbed, and fastened with a broad black band behind, was now exactly powdered." The Reverse of the Medal, chap. 2
"...the Surprises were pleased to see their Captain in his full naval glory once more, his white silk stockings, his hundred guinea presentation sword and the Turkish chelengk in his hat intimidated them a little" The Nutmeg of Consolation, chap. 7
Dabbler ( talk) 11:30, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
![]() |
Medal for
Battle of the Nile (Usually worn supended from a blue ribbon around the neck or on the chest. As a lieutenant at the Nile Jack's would have been silver) |
1798 |
![]() |
Companion of the Order of the Bath (CB) (referred to twice in the books [1] [2], but Jack is never referred to as "Sir".) |
1810 ? [a] |
Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath (GCB) (again, Jack never referred to as "Sir") |
1815 |
The citation needed for O'Brian's picturing of Charlton Heston as Jack can be found here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DEFDD143AF933A05752C1A9659C8B63 Not sure how to do the cite properly myself. PrePressChris ( talk) 18:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I know "21" refers to HMS Suffolk as Aubrey's flagship, but Aubrey's orders at the end of Blue at the Mizzen state that Aubrey is to raise his flag in HMS Implacable, not HMS Suffolk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.233.238 ( talk) 19:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
HMS Surprise isn't actually sold out of the Service until Book 11, The Reverse of the Medal. Maturin buys her, and Aubrey takes command of her once again as a letter of marque in the book of the same name. 82.43.233.238 ( talk) 19:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
The image Image:Masterandcommanderposter.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
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Besides reaching the peak of naval skills and authority, Aubrey is presented as being interested in mathematics and astronomy, a great lover of music and player of the violin, a hearty singer and is generally accompanied by his friend and shipmate Stephen Maturin on the cello. He is noted for his mangling and mis-splicing of proverbs, sometimes with Maturin's involvement, such as “Never count the bear’s skin before it is hatched” and “There’s a good deal to be said for making hay while the iron is hot.” [3] |
The preceeding paragraph is repeated in both the lead and the Career and characteristics depicted in the novels sections, I'm not sure which is more appropriate, but one should be deleted: I suggest the lead? Audigex ( talk) 17:41, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
The "Ships commanded..." section here has a list of ships, whose names are linked to articles of Royal Navy ships of the period. First of all, is there a source which marries up these names to the ships linked; and second, as we are talking about a fictional character, is it reasonable to state that he commanded any of them?
It also lists HMS Surprise, which links to HMS Surprise (1796); as we have a title for
HMS Surprise (O'Brian novels) (which, in any event, is not the same ship as HMS Surprise (1796); different rating, different history) I've taken the liberty of changing the links to Surprise here, and in the book articles, to this title. I trust everyone is OK with that.
Swanny18 (
talk)
02:39, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
PS: I've also proposed that we make that title into a discrete article (it currently redirects to a section at Surprise 1796). There is a discussion here if anyone wishes to comment. Swanny18 ( talk) 02:41, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Who is "Queeney"? Aubrey's mother is Queeney? If so, please say that. And she died when Aubrey was a boy, but she came back later and married someone other than his father???? The article currently has:
Aubrey's mother died when he was a boy. His father General Aubrey lives a longer life, and is a character in some of the novels, often working against the career interest of his son with clumsy politics. In Master and Commander, Aubrey describes the efforts of "Queeney" to teach him some Latin and the mathematics associated with a sailing ship and its navigation so that he could pass his examination for lieutenant. Her family had occupied Damplow, a house adjoining General Aubrey's estate ("they were almost in our park").[5]
Queeney returns into Aubrey's life when she marries Lord Keith. Lord Keith gave him his promotion to master and commander and his first command. Queeney is the historic Hester Maria Elphinstone, Viscountess Keith, and in her mother the reader will recognize the historic Hester Thrale.[5]
Some rewording, at least, is needed. -- Doncram ( talk) 00:49, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
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template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).
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![]() | This article is maintained by the Napoleonic fiction working group, which may be able to help with questions about the topic, as well as verification and sources. |
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Added list of ships commanded - references etc to come soon Duncan 21:40, 16 June 2007 (UTC) Are the page numbers in listed in Post Captain and M&C correct? Nate 15 Dec 2009-- 137.28.55.57 ( talk) 07:25, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Isn't Aubrey's name actually Jonathan? I seem to remember that Jack is just his nickname, and that he signed his letters "Jonathan" or "Jon."? Akerkhof 04:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, he signed his letters "Jno Aubrey", which I believe is an archaic abbreviation for Jonathon. Here is an example: image MdTrFn 18:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
You might want to check, but I don't think Aubrey was knighted. Unless it takes place in the book "21", which I have yet to read. Shadowmane20 19:21, 10 November 2007 (EST)
Jack is described as having a "Bath ribbon" (Order of the Bath) when he's in full dress/portrait as of Desolation Island. Presumably O'Brian meant for him to have been knighted for his role in the Mauritius Campaign (like the historical Josias Rowley) but he didn't want everyone calling Jack "Sir Jack". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.34.14 ( talk) 02:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure but I think its possible to be decorated with the Bath ribbon without earning the title of "Sir". Had Jack have been knighted, decorum would have required him to use the title. I seem to recall in the Ionian Mission there was a statement that he was to be Knighted but Andrew Wray caused him to be passed over. kjrjr —Preceding comment was added at 21:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
In order to have a sash of the Order of the Bath, you have to actually be a Knight Companion or higher, which is an automatic knighthood. I guess this is one of those frequent ommissions/inconsistencies that O'Brian tended to pepper in his work (for example in The Commodore, Clarissa Oakes mentions having been aboard the Nutmeg, when in Clarissa Oakes she only shows up aboard Surprise), but since Jack was up for a Baronetcy for his sinking of the Dutch 74 in Desolation Island (which was squished by Wray) I guess he might have been a K.B. at one point. It's possible, that like Cochrane, Jack was stripped of his knighthood for his role in the stock market fraud, and that Jack, who was never one for titles anyway, simply didn't care to be reinstated when he was exonerated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.97.252.227 ( talk) 09:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Specifically, where is Jack described as wearing a Bath ribbon? I can't find it anywhere. What I can find are numerous mentions that had it not been for Andrew Wray's malignancy he would have been knighted but was not. He is never refered to as "sir" any where in the series. My opinion is that the title along with the post nomial "KB" should be removed from the entry unless it can be demonstrated that it belongs there.[User:kjrjr|kjrjr]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.250.207.174 ( talk) 18:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I believe in 1815 King George granted Knighthood in the Order of the Bath to about 500 senior officers who served with distinction in the war against Napoleon. Surely Jack would've qualified for this, maybe POB inteneded to imply it in 21 by having Jack having the ribbon. 170.141.109.39 ( talk) 20:44, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Assigning Aubrey a title on the basis of a detail an unfinished, unpublished manuscript (21) is a case of assuming facts not strictly in evidence. At no point in any of the books published during O'Brian's lifetime is Aubrey referred to as "Sir John." Moreover doing so could potentially create confusion with the non-fictional Sir John Aubrey, a contemporary of the fictional Jack Aubrey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.212.64.170 ( talk) 14:55, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
219.89.14.249 ( talk) 07:39, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
To the many unsigned commenters above, look at Ref 8 in the article, which includes a quote from the start of Desolation Island, which is describing a painting done of the Captain, hanging in his home. There is reference to a sash from the order of the Bath. Whether the painter took license in the portrait is not said. I read it as summarizing the financial success Aubrey had in the prior book. -- Prairieplant ( talk) 04:00, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
I recall reading elsewhere that Cochrane did not like the pomp and perhaps pomposity of the Order of the Bath, so when he was stripped of it for his financial scandal, he was pleased. Bernard Cornwell has Cochrane as a character in one of the Sharpe series novels, and the character talks about how foolish the rituals were. If my memory is serving me well, might O'Brian be referring to this aspect of Cochrane's character, but in the way of Aubrey, he never talks about it? Aubrey never likes "showing away", Maturin observes more than once. -- Prairieplant ( talk) 06:03, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Cochrane on the other hand was already titled, albeit a courtesy title, and when he was reinstated did also take back his Order of the Bath. Dabbler ( talk) 12:33, 17 February 2015 (UTC)' The Jack Aubrey of King James’s time paid a thumping fine not to be a baronet, you know. Not that I mean the least fling against men who have won a great fleet action – it is right and proper that they should be peers – but when you look at the mass of titles, tradesmen, dirty politicians, moneylenders . . . why, I had as soon be plain Jack Aubrey – Captain Jack Aubrey, for I am as proud as Nebuchadnezzar of my service rank, and if ever I hoist my flag, I shall paint here lives Admiral Aubrey on the front of Ashgrove Cottage in huge letters. Do not think I am one of your wild democratical Jacobins, Stephen – do not run away with that notion – but different people look at these things in different lights.’
Hate to bring this up again, but someone changed the Order of the Bath that Jack was awarded. Now, I put the references in there from the text specifically to show that according to the text he had been awarded it. I don't know why O'Brian never followed it up, or never removed it "21", but that's pretty much speculation at this point. I think the comment below said it the best:
He would never have been called Sir Jack Aubrey. His Christian name was John and that would have been his title, if he had ever been awarded a knighthood. Also I wonder what your proposal actually adds to what is written in the current version of the article except a description of the changes in the Order which are never addressed in the books. Dabbler ( talk) 18:42, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Proposed change. Without any more objections will post this on Monday.... JMvanDijk ( talk)
"Captain Aubrey was resplendent in blue and gold; a Lloyd’s presentation sword hung at his side and the Nile medal from the fourth buttonhole of his coat, while the chelengk, a Turkish decoration in the form of a diamond aigrette, sparkled in his best gold-laced hat, worn nobly athwartships like Nelson’s; he had washed and shaved (a daily custom with him, even in very heavy weather), and his hair, having been rigorously brushed, clubbed, and fastened with a broad black band behind, was now exactly powdered." The Reverse of the Medal, chap. 2
"...the Surprises were pleased to see their Captain in his full naval glory once more, his white silk stockings, his hundred guinea presentation sword and the Turkish chelengk in his hat intimidated them a little" The Nutmeg of Consolation, chap. 7
Dabbler ( talk) 11:30, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
![]() |
Medal for
Battle of the Nile (Usually worn supended from a blue ribbon around the neck or on the chest. As a lieutenant at the Nile Jack's would have been silver) |
1798 |
![]() |
Companion of the Order of the Bath (CB) (referred to twice in the books [1] [2], but Jack is never referred to as "Sir".) |
1810 ? [a] |
Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath (GCB) (again, Jack never referred to as "Sir") |
1815 |
The citation needed for O'Brian's picturing of Charlton Heston as Jack can be found here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DEFDD143AF933A05752C1A9659C8B63 Not sure how to do the cite properly myself. PrePressChris ( talk) 18:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I know "21" refers to HMS Suffolk as Aubrey's flagship, but Aubrey's orders at the end of Blue at the Mizzen state that Aubrey is to raise his flag in HMS Implacable, not HMS Suffolk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.233.238 ( talk) 19:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
HMS Surprise isn't actually sold out of the Service until Book 11, The Reverse of the Medal. Maturin buys her, and Aubrey takes command of her once again as a letter of marque in the book of the same name. 82.43.233.238 ( talk) 19:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
The image Image:Masterandcommanderposter.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 02:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Besides reaching the peak of naval skills and authority, Aubrey is presented as being interested in mathematics and astronomy, a great lover of music and player of the violin, a hearty singer and is generally accompanied by his friend and shipmate Stephen Maturin on the cello. He is noted for his mangling and mis-splicing of proverbs, sometimes with Maturin's involvement, such as “Never count the bear’s skin before it is hatched” and “There’s a good deal to be said for making hay while the iron is hot.” [3] |
The preceeding paragraph is repeated in both the lead and the Career and characteristics depicted in the novels sections, I'm not sure which is more appropriate, but one should be deleted: I suggest the lead? Audigex ( talk) 17:41, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
The "Ships commanded..." section here has a list of ships, whose names are linked to articles of Royal Navy ships of the period. First of all, is there a source which marries up these names to the ships linked; and second, as we are talking about a fictional character, is it reasonable to state that he commanded any of them?
It also lists HMS Surprise, which links to HMS Surprise (1796); as we have a title for
HMS Surprise (O'Brian novels) (which, in any event, is not the same ship as HMS Surprise (1796); different rating, different history) I've taken the liberty of changing the links to Surprise here, and in the book articles, to this title. I trust everyone is OK with that.
Swanny18 (
talk)
02:39, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
PS: I've also proposed that we make that title into a discrete article (it currently redirects to a section at Surprise 1796). There is a discussion here if anyone wishes to comment. Swanny18 ( talk) 02:41, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Who is "Queeney"? Aubrey's mother is Queeney? If so, please say that. And she died when Aubrey was a boy, but she came back later and married someone other than his father???? The article currently has:
Aubrey's mother died when he was a boy. His father General Aubrey lives a longer life, and is a character in some of the novels, often working against the career interest of his son with clumsy politics. In Master and Commander, Aubrey describes the efforts of "Queeney" to teach him some Latin and the mathematics associated with a sailing ship and its navigation so that he could pass his examination for lieutenant. Her family had occupied Damplow, a house adjoining General Aubrey's estate ("they were almost in our park").[5]
Queeney returns into Aubrey's life when she marries Lord Keith. Lord Keith gave him his promotion to master and commander and his first command. Queeney is the historic Hester Maria Elphinstone, Viscountess Keith, and in her mother the reader will recognize the historic Hester Thrale.[5]
Some rewording, at least, is needed. -- Doncram ( talk) 00:49, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).