This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Having looked at the SAMPA chart, I think both it and this article are in error about the Spanish pronunciation of "j". The SAMPA chart has it as the same fricative as in Scottish "loch". As far as I know--and I'd like some native speakers to comment--it's the same sound as the English h as in "he".
What I know is Castilian as taught in school, and Nuyorican/Dominican/other mixture as heard on the streets, subways, and television (I think Univision is Mexican._ If, say, this is correct current Argentinian or Ecuadoran pronunciation, we should note that, and that it's not the only (and probably not the commonest) way the language is pronounced. Vicki Rosenzweig 04:52, 13 March 2003 (UTC)
This is a common misconception. The Spanish 'j' is pronounced with a sound not in English, so English-speakers approximate it as 'h'. But it is the same as Scottish 'loch'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.93.191.210 ( talk) 15:10, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Many of the native speakers I have met (almost all from méxico) alternate between /x/ (scottish ch sound)and /h/. From my observation /h/ is used intervocalically (between vowels) and /x/ elsewhere. In some speakers, this /h/ is dropped intervocalically, especially during fast speech. Some speakers seam to only use /x/. Zombiedude347 ( talk) 16:39, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Do more names start with "J" than any other letter? (Or, do a higher percentage of people have names that start with J than any other letter?) It seems that way, but I don't know for certain. Funnyhat 02:21, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
“ | Some people in the german-speaking world still follow the convention of writing (for example) "Isabel" as "Jsabel" and Jnes as "Ines"; one also sometimes encounters J as a capital of I in Italy. | ” |
Ok, there are differences in writing styles. E.g. the German "1" looks like an English "7." Their "7" just looks different from the English "7." They don't think it's the same. The sentence above makes it sounds as if people in Germany would actually use a J for a capital I. That is not the case. Their J just looks different from the English and coincidentally the writing of a capital I looks a bit like an English J, so what? The sentence makes it sound like Germans don't know the difference. Did somebody go to Germany for holiday and came back confused enough to write that? -- Ben T/ C 12:44, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
I would like to thank Primetime for his recent expansion of the history section, which I found enlightening and interesting and answered some questions... But one question I still have, I see Petrus Ramus of the 1500s is nowhere mentioned in the new version, whereas the older version gave him the credit for making the distinction... Not knowing too much about the exact details myself (I wasn't even familiar with Ramus' name, before I had read it here) I would like to ask if Primetime or anyone could please explain if Ramus really had anything at all to do with it, or if that was just erroneous information that has now been discarded??? Thanks! ፈቃደ ( ውይይት) 02:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
The letter j is also commonly used in mathematics to denote one of the complex third roots of the unit, (i.e.j³=1) it's value is 1/2+(sqrt(3)/2)i with i being the square root of -1. Should'nt this article mention that too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.206.135.238 ( talk • contribs) 17:56, 10 May 2006
cat msu us — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:405:4001:F970:C9EA:9101:7491:7FBB ( talk) 18:01, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
In the history section: “Other than English, the Germanic languages use J for the sound [j]. This is true of Hungarian, Albanian, and Finnish, where it can never be a fricative.” Given that many lay people won’t know that these are examples of non-Germanic languages, I’ve changed this to “…also true of…” The section could probably do with being split into two or more sections, and needs wikification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahruman ( talk • contribs) 14:13, 15 May 2006
Someone just removed the history section. However, it is from a publication in the public domain and certainly adds to the article. The following are page scans from A New English Dictionary, volumes 2 and 5, published in 1893 and 1919, respectively. It appears that Oxford University Press copied them straight into it's Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. (1989).
As you can see, the material I have added is not plagiarized at all. I have even cited it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lagbt ( talk • contribs) 16:30, June 8, 2006 -- sockpuppet of User:Primetime..
A number of Scots pronounce this 'ji' (rhyming with by or sky). Perhaps this could be mentioned. Not all are Scots speakers.
Does anyone know why the letter J (Jay) is sometimes pronounced 'Jye'? The page claims that people in Ireland and Scotland pronounce it 'Jye', but I grew up in Aberdeenshire and have lived in Ireland for years and I have only ever heard people from the Glaswegian area pronounce it this way. Apparently they are taught in school to pronounce it like this. It is my understanding that 'J' is not a letter in Irish or Scots Gaelic, so its origins are not from there. Anderthevulchar 18:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Are there any languages which use the letter "Dotless J" (ȷ)? -- 88.76.230.109 15:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Originally a final, s.t. initial variant of i, as in roman numerals: viij, etc. As far as different sound values, the OED has this to say:
"The differentiation was made first in Spanish, where, from the very introduction of printing, we see j used for the consonant, and i only for the vowel. For the capitals, I had at first to standfor both (as it still does in German type, and in all varieties of Gothic or Black Letter); but before 1600 a capital J consonant began to appear in Spanish. (See, for example, Minsheu's Spanish Dictionary of 1599, where I and J are strictly distinguished, though the I and J words are put in one series.) In German typography, almost from the first, some printers employed a tailed form of the letter <dotless j> or j initially, to distinguish the consonant sound; but this was by no means generally established till much later. According to Watt (Biblietheca Britannica), Louis Elzevir, who printed at Leyden 1595-1616, is generally credited with making the modern distinction of u and v, i and j, 'which was shortly after followed by the introduction of U and J among the capitals by Lazarus Zetzner of Strasburg in 1619'. In England, individual attempts to differentiate i and j were made already in the 16th c., as by Richard Day, who printed books in London after 1578, and George Bishop, who printed the translation of La Primaudaye's French Academie in 1586, with i, j, u, v, differentiated as in modern use, but had no capital J or U."
This doesn't support the flagged claim in the History section of the article, but the timing is about right. kwami 20:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I keep seeing J used at the end of a sentence in email &c. as if it was an emoticon. What's that all about? After answering here, someone should add it to the article, methinks. 64.242.52.23 ( talk) 14:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I removed the credits to P. Ramus as the inventor of J as a separate letter... The proposal had actually ben made several decades before by G.G. Trissino, and this is documented beyond any doubt in his Epistola, now publicly available on Internet and which I indicated as my source. If you guys believe it is needed, I may contribute a translation of the brief passage in the Epistola where Trissino suggests using the variants i vs. j as separate letters (and suggests the same about u vs. v, incidentally). Do you think that a mention to Ramus (as an independent re-inventor) should be re-introduced? BTW, there is also a Spanish humanist scholar who made a similar proposal about the same age (sorry: can't recall his name and whether his proposal was about i vs. j, u vs. v, or both). 81.120.65.55 ( talk) 15:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Talk:IJ (digraph).
Does everyone know what it means to say the "letter J is also commonly used for internet spamming"? Could it be explained more completely? Afrohally ( talk) 01:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
There are two forms of i letter in Turkish. Dotted (I ı) and dotless (İ i) represent different vocals. Thus upper case of dotted i is İ.
However it's not a problem using upper case j without dot as there is only one form of this letter.
In primary school, J is taught to be with a dot. -- 194.27.167.167 ( talk) 09:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
The article is calling jam a loanword. Have we got the right word here? JIMp talk· cont 05:11, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Thai alphabetic symbol #8 จ จาน cho chan with initial value ch (IPA [tɕ]) and final value t (IPA [t̚]) historically had been transliterated as J or j, which is yet preserved in modern usage. See, for example, Jessadabodindra, House of Sundarakul na Jolburi and for a triple dose, Abhisit Vejjajiva. Pawyilee ( talk) 08:23, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm removing the above phrase from the lead paragraph as it is un-cited jibberish. Maybe poorly google translated or something. Search for "jikel" also turns up nothing. RogrMexico ( talk) 07:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
In English there are (at least) 4 pronunciations of "J" : 'j' like 'jelly', 'zh' like 'raj', 'y' like 'fjord' and also 'h' like 'jalapeño', and 'jai alai'. The first three are mentioned in the section but not the fourth. Is 'jalapeño' any more foreign than 'fjord' or 'raj'? (If so, what's the english word for that kind of chili?) I was going to add it but I thought it'd be reverted by someone who would say "We mentioned that pronunciation under the next section...or foreign words don't count..." or some other BS. So instead, I brought the topic here so it could gain support. 75.145.77.17 ( talk) 18:00, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
J first appeared in English in Charles Butler's English Grammar, 1633 (source: British Library).-- 46.65.8.106 ( talk) 20:41, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Wrong. The letter J first appeared in the 1629 Cambridge 1st Revision King James Bible. 73.85.201.21 ( talk) 17:30, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Due to the mention of Chinese pinyin, I believe that Japanese Romaji should also be mentioned. Here's how I would word it:
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on J. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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When (what century) the pronunciation of "j" changed from /j/ to /d͡ʒ/,(/ʒ/) in Latin/Romance language ? Propatriamori ( talk) 10:04, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
The original 1611 King Iames Version did not use the letter J. J first appeared in the 1629 Cambridge King James Authorized Bible which is considered the 1st Revision [1]. Hence, the 26-letter modern English Alphabet was established. 73.85.201.21 ( talk) 17:28, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
References
jy reads "From the name of the letter i (of which j was originally a variant) by affixing the /d͡ʒ/ sound to it)" -- Backinstadiums ( talk) 11:52, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Although J is not commonly used in Italian, this letter has existed in the Italian alphabet for centuries, so much so that many surnames use it as their initial. In the past it was considered a graphic variant of I but later became a separate character. Its pronunciation in Italian is /j/, which is the same as the Italian I. An example is my own surname: de Judicibus (/ˈde juditʃibus/). Dejudicibus ( talk) 14:27, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
I don't feel like it should be there. Should we delete it? Chiagozie Elobuike ( talk) 22:46, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
Looking at J and U, J is using the first recognized date, while U is using the first used date (1386), with the first recognized date being as late as 1762 (French Academy). Both letters have a similar history in that they're initially an alternate styling of the existing i/v, respectively, which eventually got used to represent a distinct sound.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/J-letter says: "The process of differentiation began about the 14th century but was not complete until the 17th century". So maybe "Time period" should be updated to "ca. 1300-today"?
-- Dänenleo ( talk) 10:29, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
The article lists ☜ and ☛ as sisters of J. That makes no sense. Must be vandalism or something. Manicules have nothing to do with letters and have no phonetic value. They should be removed. The Old Macintosh ( talk) 13:03, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Having looked at the SAMPA chart, I think both it and this article are in error about the Spanish pronunciation of "j". The SAMPA chart has it as the same fricative as in Scottish "loch". As far as I know--and I'd like some native speakers to comment--it's the same sound as the English h as in "he".
What I know is Castilian as taught in school, and Nuyorican/Dominican/other mixture as heard on the streets, subways, and television (I think Univision is Mexican._ If, say, this is correct current Argentinian or Ecuadoran pronunciation, we should note that, and that it's not the only (and probably not the commonest) way the language is pronounced. Vicki Rosenzweig 04:52, 13 March 2003 (UTC)
This is a common misconception. The Spanish 'j' is pronounced with a sound not in English, so English-speakers approximate it as 'h'. But it is the same as Scottish 'loch'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.93.191.210 ( talk) 15:10, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Many of the native speakers I have met (almost all from méxico) alternate between /x/ (scottish ch sound)and /h/. From my observation /h/ is used intervocalically (between vowels) and /x/ elsewhere. In some speakers, this /h/ is dropped intervocalically, especially during fast speech. Some speakers seam to only use /x/. Zombiedude347 ( talk) 16:39, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Do more names start with "J" than any other letter? (Or, do a higher percentage of people have names that start with J than any other letter?) It seems that way, but I don't know for certain. Funnyhat 02:21, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
“ | Some people in the german-speaking world still follow the convention of writing (for example) "Isabel" as "Jsabel" and Jnes as "Ines"; one also sometimes encounters J as a capital of I in Italy. | ” |
Ok, there are differences in writing styles. E.g. the German "1" looks like an English "7." Their "7" just looks different from the English "7." They don't think it's the same. The sentence above makes it sounds as if people in Germany would actually use a J for a capital I. That is not the case. Their J just looks different from the English and coincidentally the writing of a capital I looks a bit like an English J, so what? The sentence makes it sound like Germans don't know the difference. Did somebody go to Germany for holiday and came back confused enough to write that? -- Ben T/ C 12:44, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
I would like to thank Primetime for his recent expansion of the history section, which I found enlightening and interesting and answered some questions... But one question I still have, I see Petrus Ramus of the 1500s is nowhere mentioned in the new version, whereas the older version gave him the credit for making the distinction... Not knowing too much about the exact details myself (I wasn't even familiar with Ramus' name, before I had read it here) I would like to ask if Primetime or anyone could please explain if Ramus really had anything at all to do with it, or if that was just erroneous information that has now been discarded??? Thanks! ፈቃደ ( ውይይት) 02:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
The letter j is also commonly used in mathematics to denote one of the complex third roots of the unit, (i.e.j³=1) it's value is 1/2+(sqrt(3)/2)i with i being the square root of -1. Should'nt this article mention that too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.206.135.238 ( talk • contribs) 17:56, 10 May 2006
cat msu us — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:405:4001:F970:C9EA:9101:7491:7FBB ( talk) 18:01, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
In the history section: “Other than English, the Germanic languages use J for the sound [j]. This is true of Hungarian, Albanian, and Finnish, where it can never be a fricative.” Given that many lay people won’t know that these are examples of non-Germanic languages, I’ve changed this to “…also true of…” The section could probably do with being split into two or more sections, and needs wikification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahruman ( talk • contribs) 14:13, 15 May 2006
Someone just removed the history section. However, it is from a publication in the public domain and certainly adds to the article. The following are page scans from A New English Dictionary, volumes 2 and 5, published in 1893 and 1919, respectively. It appears that Oxford University Press copied them straight into it's Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. (1989).
As you can see, the material I have added is not plagiarized at all. I have even cited it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lagbt ( talk • contribs) 16:30, June 8, 2006 -- sockpuppet of User:Primetime..
A number of Scots pronounce this 'ji' (rhyming with by or sky). Perhaps this could be mentioned. Not all are Scots speakers.
Does anyone know why the letter J (Jay) is sometimes pronounced 'Jye'? The page claims that people in Ireland and Scotland pronounce it 'Jye', but I grew up in Aberdeenshire and have lived in Ireland for years and I have only ever heard people from the Glaswegian area pronounce it this way. Apparently they are taught in school to pronounce it like this. It is my understanding that 'J' is not a letter in Irish or Scots Gaelic, so its origins are not from there. Anderthevulchar 18:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Are there any languages which use the letter "Dotless J" (ȷ)? -- 88.76.230.109 15:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Originally a final, s.t. initial variant of i, as in roman numerals: viij, etc. As far as different sound values, the OED has this to say:
"The differentiation was made first in Spanish, where, from the very introduction of printing, we see j used for the consonant, and i only for the vowel. For the capitals, I had at first to standfor both (as it still does in German type, and in all varieties of Gothic or Black Letter); but before 1600 a capital J consonant began to appear in Spanish. (See, for example, Minsheu's Spanish Dictionary of 1599, where I and J are strictly distinguished, though the I and J words are put in one series.) In German typography, almost from the first, some printers employed a tailed form of the letter <dotless j> or j initially, to distinguish the consonant sound; but this was by no means generally established till much later. According to Watt (Biblietheca Britannica), Louis Elzevir, who printed at Leyden 1595-1616, is generally credited with making the modern distinction of u and v, i and j, 'which was shortly after followed by the introduction of U and J among the capitals by Lazarus Zetzner of Strasburg in 1619'. In England, individual attempts to differentiate i and j were made already in the 16th c., as by Richard Day, who printed books in London after 1578, and George Bishop, who printed the translation of La Primaudaye's French Academie in 1586, with i, j, u, v, differentiated as in modern use, but had no capital J or U."
This doesn't support the flagged claim in the History section of the article, but the timing is about right. kwami 20:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I keep seeing J used at the end of a sentence in email &c. as if it was an emoticon. What's that all about? After answering here, someone should add it to the article, methinks. 64.242.52.23 ( talk) 14:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I removed the credits to P. Ramus as the inventor of J as a separate letter... The proposal had actually ben made several decades before by G.G. Trissino, and this is documented beyond any doubt in his Epistola, now publicly available on Internet and which I indicated as my source. If you guys believe it is needed, I may contribute a translation of the brief passage in the Epistola where Trissino suggests using the variants i vs. j as separate letters (and suggests the same about u vs. v, incidentally). Do you think that a mention to Ramus (as an independent re-inventor) should be re-introduced? BTW, there is also a Spanish humanist scholar who made a similar proposal about the same age (sorry: can't recall his name and whether his proposal was about i vs. j, u vs. v, or both). 81.120.65.55 ( talk) 15:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Talk:IJ (digraph).
Does everyone know what it means to say the "letter J is also commonly used for internet spamming"? Could it be explained more completely? Afrohally ( talk) 01:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
There are two forms of i letter in Turkish. Dotted (I ı) and dotless (İ i) represent different vocals. Thus upper case of dotted i is İ.
However it's not a problem using upper case j without dot as there is only one form of this letter.
In primary school, J is taught to be with a dot. -- 194.27.167.167 ( talk) 09:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
The article is calling jam a loanword. Have we got the right word here? JIMp talk· cont 05:11, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Thai alphabetic symbol #8 จ จาน cho chan with initial value ch (IPA [tɕ]) and final value t (IPA [t̚]) historically had been transliterated as J or j, which is yet preserved in modern usage. See, for example, Jessadabodindra, House of Sundarakul na Jolburi and for a triple dose, Abhisit Vejjajiva. Pawyilee ( talk) 08:23, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm removing the above phrase from the lead paragraph as it is un-cited jibberish. Maybe poorly google translated or something. Search for "jikel" also turns up nothing. RogrMexico ( talk) 07:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
In English there are (at least) 4 pronunciations of "J" : 'j' like 'jelly', 'zh' like 'raj', 'y' like 'fjord' and also 'h' like 'jalapeño', and 'jai alai'. The first three are mentioned in the section but not the fourth. Is 'jalapeño' any more foreign than 'fjord' or 'raj'? (If so, what's the english word for that kind of chili?) I was going to add it but I thought it'd be reverted by someone who would say "We mentioned that pronunciation under the next section...or foreign words don't count..." or some other BS. So instead, I brought the topic here so it could gain support. 75.145.77.17 ( talk) 18:00, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
J first appeared in English in Charles Butler's English Grammar, 1633 (source: British Library).-- 46.65.8.106 ( talk) 20:41, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Wrong. The letter J first appeared in the 1629 Cambridge 1st Revision King James Bible. 73.85.201.21 ( talk) 17:30, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Due to the mention of Chinese pinyin, I believe that Japanese Romaji should also be mentioned. Here's how I would word it:
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on J. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:16, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
When (what century) the pronunciation of "j" changed from /j/ to /d͡ʒ/,(/ʒ/) in Latin/Romance language ? Propatriamori ( talk) 10:04, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
The original 1611 King Iames Version did not use the letter J. J first appeared in the 1629 Cambridge King James Authorized Bible which is considered the 1st Revision [1]. Hence, the 26-letter modern English Alphabet was established. 73.85.201.21 ( talk) 17:28, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
References
jy reads "From the name of the letter i (of which j was originally a variant) by affixing the /d͡ʒ/ sound to it)" -- Backinstadiums ( talk) 11:52, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Although J is not commonly used in Italian, this letter has existed in the Italian alphabet for centuries, so much so that many surnames use it as their initial. In the past it was considered a graphic variant of I but later became a separate character. Its pronunciation in Italian is /j/, which is the same as the Italian I. An example is my own surname: de Judicibus (/ˈde juditʃibus/). Dejudicibus ( talk) 14:27, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
I don't feel like it should be there. Should we delete it? Chiagozie Elobuike ( talk) 22:46, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
Looking at J and U, J is using the first recognized date, while U is using the first used date (1386), with the first recognized date being as late as 1762 (French Academy). Both letters have a similar history in that they're initially an alternate styling of the existing i/v, respectively, which eventually got used to represent a distinct sound.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/J-letter says: "The process of differentiation began about the 14th century but was not complete until the 17th century". So maybe "Time period" should be updated to "ca. 1300-today"?
-- Dänenleo ( talk) 10:29, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
The article lists ☜ and ☛ as sisters of J. That makes no sense. Must be vandalism or something. Manicules have nothing to do with letters and have no phonetic value. They should be removed. The Old Macintosh ( talk) 13:03, 13 June 2023 (UTC)