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Does Kobayashi really count as Iwama style? There are ties, but I believe he was uchideshi at hombu dojo rather than Iwama...
132.162.250.239 ( talk) 22:02, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I have started a discussion at Talk:Iwama Ryu about merging this article with Iwama Ryu. Please discuss it there. — Edwin Stearns | Talk 20:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
The external link goes to a British Iwama style web site. I have no clue what such websites exist, but suspect there would be more relevant links than this one. // Habj 23:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
So what is a major style of aikido... is Iwama one of them or not? There is no organisation for Iwama, most of it is nowadays within the Aikikai. Maybe it makes sense to define Iwama as a "major style", maybe not. I find the division on List of aikido styles sensible enough, but putting it in a template in each article makes it look so... definate. IMHO the template adds litte worth but more trouble. I removed it from the article, and and started a discussion at Template talk:Major styles of aikido. // habj 12:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
In response to the above
Iwama is not the style of Aikido, per se, the style is called Takemusu. Takemusu was based on Morehei Ueshiba's (O'Sensei) teachings during the later period of his life when he retired to Iwama. After World War II, O'Sensei's son left Iwama for the dojo that the family owned in Tokyo, in order to protect it from looting/claims of ownership after the bombing of the city. This caused a split in styles of aikido, with the Tokyo dojo (in Shinjuku) dropping the more complex movements and the sword movements from the art. This has become evident in the various styles of aikido taught today, particularly in the US.
Takemusu, on the other hand, focuses on O'Sensei's teaching and training methods as they were directly passed on to Morihiro Saito (Saito Sensei). This included the complex movements and the sword movements. Takemusu dojos train in Taijutsu (without weapons) and Aikiken (the sword) and AikiJo (the Jo). They movements in Takemusu Aiki closely resemble those movements made when using sword.
The above may be a biased interpretation, however. THe information comes from the takemusu website, the Saito Sensei website and my own Sensei in the Takemusu Aiki Association of Australian. Perhaps Takemusu should be expanded in the 'AIkido Styles' section?. //[[User:telemeister] 18:46, 9 June 2007
To what extent is this term used in Japanese? Is it at all? AFAIK the "Iwama aikido" phenomenon is mainly something in the West. // habj 12:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
In Japan styles are usually designated with the suffix -ryu or -ha to my knowledge. For example, Ueshiba-ha Daito-ryu Jiujutsu. Probably the designation is not the same as in the west, but the formation of a new Iwama-style organization shows that there are some political issues about differing styles in the Aikikai... // User: Rufe 5:38 PM, 2/2/2007 (EST)
I don't mean to step on anybody's toes, but this article has some glaring issues. Even just the lead is atrocious:
Problems:
I'll suspect though that many of the problems with the articles surrounding Iwama ryu are artifacts due to page moves and such. I'll try to implement some improvements.. Cesiumfrog ( talk) 04:24, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes, it clearly comes from the merge between Iwama style and Iwama ryu.
Also, I've put the info on Koshi-nage, but it may violate some wiki rule I'm not aware of. Rufe ( talk) 06:37, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
I've deleted the term "founder's style" as as far as I know that term is not used and I could not find any information on that term on the web. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rufe ( talk • contribs) 01:10, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Rufe ( talk) 05:25, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
It is correct that Mr. Pranin is a true historian of Aikido; however, I must point out that while his article suggests that Iwama style is the founder's aikido, it does not suggest that the term "founder's aikido" is generally synonymous with "Iwama style". Many people claim to teach "the founder's aikido" as it was taught to them or their teacher, many of them with good reason. Given that, I don't see why that term should be included as a synonym for Iwama style. I contrast, all the other terms are (with the exception of "Traditional Aikido"), especially in English, uniquely associated with Iwama style.
As for the koshi-nage, it is true that the source is a poor one and perhaps it should be excluded in the article. However, if you have spent time with the Yamaguchi or Nishio stylists in particular you've surely noticed that they sometimes do a more judo-like koshinage with the feet together and occasionally with their back to uke. In contrast, Iwama stylists always do the "jyuu-no-ji" style koshinage with the feet in hanmi and using their eyes in kihon to help direct their bodies. I could add the Takemusu Aikido books as a reference for the Iwama style koshi, though the Shingan-ryu thing really is just speculation by a few senior practitioners of other classical martial art styles. I included it only for the historical interest and would not argue with its removal. Rufe ( talk) 06:45, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
You are probably correct that the self-published material by a qualified but not "expert" author is probably an insufficient source. I'll remove the information -> Shingan-ryu from the page. I singled out koshinage because Shoji Nishio claimed to his students that he personally reintroduced koshinage to the aikikai, in part influenced by his knowledge of judo.
What of the topic of "founder's aikido"? Rufe ( talk) 03:59, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
I've attempted to clean this article up a lot and add citations for much of the information. I removed some citation needed tags placed by myself as they were not intended to challenge the statement and are redundant with the tag at the top
moved to "Iwama style" as "Iwama ryu" is encompassed by style but not visa-versa.
Rufe ( talk) 04:40, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Iwama style article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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Does Kobayashi really count as Iwama style? There are ties, but I believe he was uchideshi at hombu dojo rather than Iwama...
132.162.250.239 ( talk) 22:02, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I have started a discussion at Talk:Iwama Ryu about merging this article with Iwama Ryu. Please discuss it there. — Edwin Stearns | Talk 20:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
The external link goes to a British Iwama style web site. I have no clue what such websites exist, but suspect there would be more relevant links than this one. // Habj 23:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
So what is a major style of aikido... is Iwama one of them or not? There is no organisation for Iwama, most of it is nowadays within the Aikikai. Maybe it makes sense to define Iwama as a "major style", maybe not. I find the division on List of aikido styles sensible enough, but putting it in a template in each article makes it look so... definate. IMHO the template adds litte worth but more trouble. I removed it from the article, and and started a discussion at Template talk:Major styles of aikido. // habj 12:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
In response to the above
Iwama is not the style of Aikido, per se, the style is called Takemusu. Takemusu was based on Morehei Ueshiba's (O'Sensei) teachings during the later period of his life when he retired to Iwama. After World War II, O'Sensei's son left Iwama for the dojo that the family owned in Tokyo, in order to protect it from looting/claims of ownership after the bombing of the city. This caused a split in styles of aikido, with the Tokyo dojo (in Shinjuku) dropping the more complex movements and the sword movements from the art. This has become evident in the various styles of aikido taught today, particularly in the US.
Takemusu, on the other hand, focuses on O'Sensei's teaching and training methods as they were directly passed on to Morihiro Saito (Saito Sensei). This included the complex movements and the sword movements. Takemusu dojos train in Taijutsu (without weapons) and Aikiken (the sword) and AikiJo (the Jo). They movements in Takemusu Aiki closely resemble those movements made when using sword.
The above may be a biased interpretation, however. THe information comes from the takemusu website, the Saito Sensei website and my own Sensei in the Takemusu Aiki Association of Australian. Perhaps Takemusu should be expanded in the 'AIkido Styles' section?. //[[User:telemeister] 18:46, 9 June 2007
To what extent is this term used in Japanese? Is it at all? AFAIK the "Iwama aikido" phenomenon is mainly something in the West. // habj 12:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
In Japan styles are usually designated with the suffix -ryu or -ha to my knowledge. For example, Ueshiba-ha Daito-ryu Jiujutsu. Probably the designation is not the same as in the west, but the formation of a new Iwama-style organization shows that there are some political issues about differing styles in the Aikikai... // User: Rufe 5:38 PM, 2/2/2007 (EST)
I don't mean to step on anybody's toes, but this article has some glaring issues. Even just the lead is atrocious:
Problems:
I'll suspect though that many of the problems with the articles surrounding Iwama ryu are artifacts due to page moves and such. I'll try to implement some improvements.. Cesiumfrog ( talk) 04:24, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes, it clearly comes from the merge between Iwama style and Iwama ryu.
Also, I've put the info on Koshi-nage, but it may violate some wiki rule I'm not aware of. Rufe ( talk) 06:37, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
I've deleted the term "founder's style" as as far as I know that term is not used and I could not find any information on that term on the web. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rufe ( talk • contribs) 01:10, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Rufe ( talk) 05:25, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
It is correct that Mr. Pranin is a true historian of Aikido; however, I must point out that while his article suggests that Iwama style is the founder's aikido, it does not suggest that the term "founder's aikido" is generally synonymous with "Iwama style". Many people claim to teach "the founder's aikido" as it was taught to them or their teacher, many of them with good reason. Given that, I don't see why that term should be included as a synonym for Iwama style. I contrast, all the other terms are (with the exception of "Traditional Aikido"), especially in English, uniquely associated with Iwama style.
As for the koshi-nage, it is true that the source is a poor one and perhaps it should be excluded in the article. However, if you have spent time with the Yamaguchi or Nishio stylists in particular you've surely noticed that they sometimes do a more judo-like koshinage with the feet together and occasionally with their back to uke. In contrast, Iwama stylists always do the "jyuu-no-ji" style koshinage with the feet in hanmi and using their eyes in kihon to help direct their bodies. I could add the Takemusu Aikido books as a reference for the Iwama style koshi, though the Shingan-ryu thing really is just speculation by a few senior practitioners of other classical martial art styles. I included it only for the historical interest and would not argue with its removal. Rufe ( talk) 06:45, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
You are probably correct that the self-published material by a qualified but not "expert" author is probably an insufficient source. I'll remove the information -> Shingan-ryu from the page. I singled out koshinage because Shoji Nishio claimed to his students that he personally reintroduced koshinage to the aikikai, in part influenced by his knowledge of judo.
What of the topic of "founder's aikido"? Rufe ( talk) 03:59, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
I've attempted to clean this article up a lot and add citations for much of the information. I removed some citation needed tags placed by myself as they were not intended to challenge the statement and are redundant with the tag at the top
moved to "Iwama style" as "Iwama ryu" is encompassed by style but not visa-versa.
Rufe ( talk) 04:40, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
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