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I think it should be left in with a NPOV as well as Blacks take on it (Seeing as previous editor said it was wrong). This was a serious part of Blacks history.
Some links on the subject.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=273662&page=1&pp=20 http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=458076&postcount=8
Is Ivana Jewish or Part - Jewish? Her father was a refugee from europe during ww2
My understanding, based on a book (Maestro of Crystal) by the son of Miroslav Havel, first chief designer of Waterford Crystal, is that Karel Bacik, Ivana's grandfather, was a successful glass manufacturer before the war, that he continued to run his factory under Nazi occupation, and that he was pushed out in around 1947-48, when the Communists began to take over private businesses. There was no mention in that book either about Jewishness or involvement with anti-Nazi resistance, not that there should have been, since Bacik wasn't the direct subject of the book. However, he wasn't hiding out in the hills, he was behind a desk, and his factory was putting out war-related products like gunsight lenses, so if he was either Jewish or in the resistance he did a good job of keeping the Nazis from finding out.
So according to the book, Karel was a medium-to-large scale entrepreneur who was trying to build a business for himself, and when he couldn't do that in his native country, he abandoned his life there and emigrated west. The article omits this central fact and presents a composite picture suggestive of Karel as some sort of exiled political activist: (i) an unsourced assertion of involvement in anti-Nazi resistance, (ii) an unsourced mention of an arrest by the Nazis, no cause given, but with the suggestion by juxtaposition that it was because of resistance involvement, (iii) the soft-pedalling of the fact that he founded Waterford Glass as a profit-making enterprise - ...involved in the establishment of Waterford Crystal a time when industrial employment in Waterford was in short supply makes it sound like a charity or a community project.
Whether Karel Bacik was a bourgeois capitalist or an exiled freedom fighter, or both, there's no doubt at all about his vision, street smarts, and courage, or about his ability to have an impact and get interesting things done. I think viewing him through the lens of his granddaughter's politics does neither Karel nor Ivana justice. I hope someone can find a better source about his life and maybe put up a Wikipedia article about him.
This article is turning into a well-referenced hatchet-job.
It is right and proper that criticism of a politician should be included in an article, but WP:NPOV requires that articles do not give "undue weight" to criticism. Instead, nearly every section in this article includes some disparaging or derogatory comment, referenced in nearly every case the Irish Independent (which is main commercial rival of the paper Bacik writes for, The Irish Times). This even extends to quoting two letters to the Independent, neither of which is balanced by any supportive comments.
This article reads as if someone has trawled the archives of the Irish Independent in search of critical commentary to add here.
For example,
There's more like this, but I don't have time to dissect it all here. So until this is cleared up, I am going to tag the articles as {{ POV}}. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 17:19, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Dear Brown Haired Girl,
I do appreciate your obvious professional input into this matter and I stand corrected to your superior experience in these matters. I have taken a cursory look at the pages that you referenced and they would appear to be, in the main, recycled press releases or repeating what is known already. Nonetheless the subject has an extraordinary ability to generate media publicity to the extent that a neutral unfamilar observer would have to made aware of this, to get a full understanding of the facts and also what friend and foe alike think of her.Media outlets, by their very nature will not give glowing or wholesome praise to a politician but will not hold back in negative discourse.It therefore will not be possible to balance what you have seen with directly comparable favourable quotes, but the fact that she receives such attention at all is to her political benefit.As a first step I have put a small reference to this in her main introduction but promise to revisit this issue in the immediate future to give a more comprehensive input.
Skreen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.152.202.31 ( talk) 21:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
It needs to be explained how she is an "Independent" senator and a member of the Labour party. jnestorius( talk) 20:23, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
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It would be useful to mention the accepted pronunciation of her surname. -- Ekaterina Colclough ( talk) 21:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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I think it should be left in with a NPOV as well as Blacks take on it (Seeing as previous editor said it was wrong). This was a serious part of Blacks history.
Some links on the subject.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=273662&page=1&pp=20 http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=458076&postcount=8
Is Ivana Jewish or Part - Jewish? Her father was a refugee from europe during ww2
My understanding, based on a book (Maestro of Crystal) by the son of Miroslav Havel, first chief designer of Waterford Crystal, is that Karel Bacik, Ivana's grandfather, was a successful glass manufacturer before the war, that he continued to run his factory under Nazi occupation, and that he was pushed out in around 1947-48, when the Communists began to take over private businesses. There was no mention in that book either about Jewishness or involvement with anti-Nazi resistance, not that there should have been, since Bacik wasn't the direct subject of the book. However, he wasn't hiding out in the hills, he was behind a desk, and his factory was putting out war-related products like gunsight lenses, so if he was either Jewish or in the resistance he did a good job of keeping the Nazis from finding out.
So according to the book, Karel was a medium-to-large scale entrepreneur who was trying to build a business for himself, and when he couldn't do that in his native country, he abandoned his life there and emigrated west. The article omits this central fact and presents a composite picture suggestive of Karel as some sort of exiled political activist: (i) an unsourced assertion of involvement in anti-Nazi resistance, (ii) an unsourced mention of an arrest by the Nazis, no cause given, but with the suggestion by juxtaposition that it was because of resistance involvement, (iii) the soft-pedalling of the fact that he founded Waterford Glass as a profit-making enterprise - ...involved in the establishment of Waterford Crystal a time when industrial employment in Waterford was in short supply makes it sound like a charity or a community project.
Whether Karel Bacik was a bourgeois capitalist or an exiled freedom fighter, or both, there's no doubt at all about his vision, street smarts, and courage, or about his ability to have an impact and get interesting things done. I think viewing him through the lens of his granddaughter's politics does neither Karel nor Ivana justice. I hope someone can find a better source about his life and maybe put up a Wikipedia article about him.
This article is turning into a well-referenced hatchet-job.
It is right and proper that criticism of a politician should be included in an article, but WP:NPOV requires that articles do not give "undue weight" to criticism. Instead, nearly every section in this article includes some disparaging or derogatory comment, referenced in nearly every case the Irish Independent (which is main commercial rival of the paper Bacik writes for, The Irish Times). This even extends to quoting two letters to the Independent, neither of which is balanced by any supportive comments.
This article reads as if someone has trawled the archives of the Irish Independent in search of critical commentary to add here.
For example,
There's more like this, but I don't have time to dissect it all here. So until this is cleared up, I am going to tag the articles as {{ POV}}. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 17:19, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Dear Brown Haired Girl,
I do appreciate your obvious professional input into this matter and I stand corrected to your superior experience in these matters. I have taken a cursory look at the pages that you referenced and they would appear to be, in the main, recycled press releases or repeating what is known already. Nonetheless the subject has an extraordinary ability to generate media publicity to the extent that a neutral unfamilar observer would have to made aware of this, to get a full understanding of the facts and also what friend and foe alike think of her.Media outlets, by their very nature will not give glowing or wholesome praise to a politician but will not hold back in negative discourse.It therefore will not be possible to balance what you have seen with directly comparable favourable quotes, but the fact that she receives such attention at all is to her political benefit.As a first step I have put a small reference to this in her main introduction but promise to revisit this issue in the immediate future to give a more comprehensive input.
Skreen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.152.202.31 ( talk) 21:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
It needs to be explained how she is an "Independent" senator and a member of the Labour party. jnestorius( talk) 20:23, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
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It would be useful to mention the accepted pronunciation of her surname. -- Ekaterina Colclough ( talk) 21:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)