![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
Seven sparse footnotes for this entire article is not what is considered well-sourced. The tag {{
refimprove}}
is entirely appropriate. As JamesBWatson pointed out in his message on his talk page, asking folks to track down sources on the wikilinked pages is not appropriate.
On a separate issue, Wictionary hardly counts in any way as a WP:Reliable Source. The Dissident Aggressor 18:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
User:JorisvS: Why have you deleted a large portion of Italo-Dalmatian_languages as rv? https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Italo-Dalmatian_languages&oldid=627252316 My edits are not vandalism. Saying vague things like blah blah doesn't help. I shall explain the meaning behind the various sections to you, from https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Italo-Dalmatian_languages&oldid=627241133
Please note Italo-Dalmatian = Italian Romance plus Dalmatian, in case you didn't realise!
The original deleted sections
|
---|
Italian Dialects or Languages The Italian Dialects are the different linguistic varieties of Italian spoken in Italy. They correspond to the languages classified as being Italian Romance (or Italo-Romance), and hence Italo-Dalmatian. Although they are labelled as dialects (It. dialetti), they can also be considered as individual languages, as they can differ widely from Standard Italian. [1] They do not include the Sardinian language. The meaning of the “Italian Dialects” is not that of merely cataloguing the different linguistic varieties spoken in Italy, but instead of cataloguing the linguistic varieties spoken in Italy that are considered to be Italian in nature. But there is no absolute judge of which varieties are Italian in nature, as there is no means of creating a clear consensus. But some varieties are not considered to be Italian varieties, but are instead considered as being non-Italian varieties which are traditionally spoken in Italy. This is often the case when languages originate from outside of Italy. The Gallo-Italic languages, and the Venetian language, are considered to be Northern Italian Dialects. [2] But they are also considered to be Western Romance languages. So it is possible to classify them as being both Western Romance and Italian Romance. Regional Italian has a different meaning: it is the varieties of Standard Italian, which is based on the Florentine dialect of Tuscan, spoken in different Italian regions, which have had influences from the traditional local Italian dialects. So they are similar to Standard Italian except for some local influences. There are two major groups of Italian Dialects spoken in Italy: the Northern (Settentrionale) dialects; and the Central-Southern (Centro-Meridionale) dialects. They are divided by the La Spezia–Rimini Line, which is an isogloss, a geographical line that divides the Italian dialects in terms of linguistics. It roughly follows the divide between the Italian regions of Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna. The line can also be thought as dividing the Western Romance from the Central (Italo-Dalmation) Romance, Sardinian Romance and Eastern Romance, the main four groups of Romance languages. Northern Italian Dialects or Languages The Gallo-Italic languages and the Venetian language are considered to be Northern dialects of the Italian language, hences Italian Romance, hence Italo-Dalmatian. [2] But they are also considered to be Western Romance languages. [2]
Some other Romance languages are spoken in North Italy, but are not included in the Northern Italian Dialects, being seen as Gallic languages. [2] Also, some Non-Romance languages are also spoken. See the languages of Italy. |
I support the deletions that JorisvS has made. This whole article is a mess. Kudos to JorisvS for attempting to improve it. The Dissident Aggressor 17:02, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Glottolog2.3
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).1) "Okay, dialetti italiani is especially used to refer to those languages that do not have political recognition (as the result from previous lengthy discussions and arguments at Italian dialects).". Untrue, all Italian Romance languages are considered dialetti. If true, then Standard Italian would not be a dialect of Italian!
2) "So I said "especially those with no political recognition". Still, Sardinian is still sometimes called a dialetto. The Wikipedia articles are actually in favor of my position. Please try not to misread what I say.". Sardinian is not considered as an Italian dialect among any reliable sources I have consulted. It just shows that people can get confused. Some people think the earth is flat!
3) ""Italian Dialects are the different linguistic varieties of Italian spoken in Italy", yet you subsumed regional Romance languages under this, which is linguistically not appropriate: These are not Italian linguistically, i.e. not dialectal forms of the Italian language.". "(b) “Why there is sometimes disagreements over which languages consist of Italo-Romance.” Then the actual disagreement should be documented, which would be nothing of the sort you've done." Wrong. I explained that the Gallo-Italic & Venetian languages are sometimes put in Western Romance, and sometimes in Italian Romance, depending on the linguist. Look at my sources, or the relevant WP articles.
4) "“Why the Gallo-Italic languages can be thought of being both Italian Romance and Western Romance.” What are you getting at? If you're going for them having characteristics of both Gallo-Romance and Italo-Romance: that's because there is a dialect continuum and the Gallo-Italic languages are in between.". This needs to be explained, otherwise it can cause considerable confusion, as shown by this conversation.
5) "“The difference between Italian dialects (same as Italian Romance) and Regional Italian.” The only valid definitions linguistically give Italian dialects = Regional Italian. Sociolinguistically, this need not be the case. But this article is about a strictly linguistic subject." Wrong. Please read the wikipedia articles to understand the difference between Italian dialects and Regional Italian, or I will explain if you so wish.
6) "“Italo-Dalmatian = Italian Romance plus Dalmatian. Italian Romance = Dialetti italiani.” Italian Romance ≠ dialetti italiani, not in any linguistically sensible way. Sociolinguistically, such an equalization could be pushed. That does not matter, because this article is about a linguistic clade and hence this article should no go into the messy details of linguo-politics. If there is a reliable source that says exactly so, it can be mentioned that Italian Romance is sometimes equated with the dialetti italiani, but also that this is not always the case." Well all the Italian Dialects I have come across, have also been described as Italian Romance in sources. What languages do you think this doesn't apply to? As I have explained earlier, the main debate is the Gallo-Italic & Venetian languages, which have been described as both Italian dialects and Italian Romance. I can quote sources if you wish.
7) "“Why many Romance languages spoken in Italy are not considered to be Italian dialects.” Politics. Political recognition has no bearing on an article about a clade in a language family." I disagree. For example the Rhaeto-romance languages spoken in Italy have a strong Gallic nature, it would difficult to describe them as Italian dialects. Considerable analysis has occurred from linguists, for example it is the reason why Sardinian is not considered Italian Romance by any reliable source.
8) "“That italo-Western is now supported by most linguists.” So? Even if true, this has little bearing on this article, aside from the infobox." The point is there is confusion over the Gallo-Italic languages and Venetian. There are two major groups of Italian Dialects spoken in Italy: the Northern (Settentrionale) dialects; and the Central-Southern (Centro-Meridionale) dialects. They are divided by the La Spezia–Rimini Line, which is an isogloss, a geographical line that divides the Italian dialects in terms of linguistics. It roughly follows the divide between the Italian regions of Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna. The line can also be thought as dividing the Western Romance from the Central (Italo-Dalmation) Romance, Sardinian Romance and Eastern Romance, the main four groups of Romance languages. But if Italo-Western is considered instead, there is no confusion over which group the Gallo-Italic languages and Venetian should be put into. -- Mrjulesd ( talk) 20:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Could we please observe some basic talk page etiquette here? Mrjules is making this almost completely unreadable between screwy formatting, random bold, posting walls of text and not threading his posts.
Guidelines request that we "keep the talk page attractively and clearly laid out, using standard indentation and formatting conventions." See WP:TPYES for more info. The Dissident Aggressor 22:45, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Hi all, a new article on Italo-Romance languages has just been proposed at AfC ( Draft:Italo-Romance languages). I have declined this meanwhile, as it seems to me that the new information would be better merged into this article. However, it is not my field so I could easily be wrong. If a consensus of those aready working here is that the new article would be a useful supplement, I will be glad to revisit this. Doric Loon ( talk) 13:08, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
Seven sparse footnotes for this entire article is not what is considered well-sourced. The tag {{
refimprove}}
is entirely appropriate. As JamesBWatson pointed out in his message on his talk page, asking folks to track down sources on the wikilinked pages is not appropriate.
On a separate issue, Wictionary hardly counts in any way as a WP:Reliable Source. The Dissident Aggressor 18:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
User:JorisvS: Why have you deleted a large portion of Italo-Dalmatian_languages as rv? https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Italo-Dalmatian_languages&oldid=627252316 My edits are not vandalism. Saying vague things like blah blah doesn't help. I shall explain the meaning behind the various sections to you, from https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Italo-Dalmatian_languages&oldid=627241133
Please note Italo-Dalmatian = Italian Romance plus Dalmatian, in case you didn't realise!
The original deleted sections
|
---|
Italian Dialects or Languages The Italian Dialects are the different linguistic varieties of Italian spoken in Italy. They correspond to the languages classified as being Italian Romance (or Italo-Romance), and hence Italo-Dalmatian. Although they are labelled as dialects (It. dialetti), they can also be considered as individual languages, as they can differ widely from Standard Italian. [1] They do not include the Sardinian language. The meaning of the “Italian Dialects” is not that of merely cataloguing the different linguistic varieties spoken in Italy, but instead of cataloguing the linguistic varieties spoken in Italy that are considered to be Italian in nature. But there is no absolute judge of which varieties are Italian in nature, as there is no means of creating a clear consensus. But some varieties are not considered to be Italian varieties, but are instead considered as being non-Italian varieties which are traditionally spoken in Italy. This is often the case when languages originate from outside of Italy. The Gallo-Italic languages, and the Venetian language, are considered to be Northern Italian Dialects. [2] But they are also considered to be Western Romance languages. So it is possible to classify them as being both Western Romance and Italian Romance. Regional Italian has a different meaning: it is the varieties of Standard Italian, which is based on the Florentine dialect of Tuscan, spoken in different Italian regions, which have had influences from the traditional local Italian dialects. So they are similar to Standard Italian except for some local influences. There are two major groups of Italian Dialects spoken in Italy: the Northern (Settentrionale) dialects; and the Central-Southern (Centro-Meridionale) dialects. They are divided by the La Spezia–Rimini Line, which is an isogloss, a geographical line that divides the Italian dialects in terms of linguistics. It roughly follows the divide between the Italian regions of Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna. The line can also be thought as dividing the Western Romance from the Central (Italo-Dalmation) Romance, Sardinian Romance and Eastern Romance, the main four groups of Romance languages. Northern Italian Dialects or Languages The Gallo-Italic languages and the Venetian language are considered to be Northern dialects of the Italian language, hences Italian Romance, hence Italo-Dalmatian. [2] But they are also considered to be Western Romance languages. [2]
Some other Romance languages are spoken in North Italy, but are not included in the Northern Italian Dialects, being seen as Gallic languages. [2] Also, some Non-Romance languages are also spoken. See the languages of Italy. |
I support the deletions that JorisvS has made. This whole article is a mess. Kudos to JorisvS for attempting to improve it. The Dissident Aggressor 17:02, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Glottolog2.3
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).1) "Okay, dialetti italiani is especially used to refer to those languages that do not have political recognition (as the result from previous lengthy discussions and arguments at Italian dialects).". Untrue, all Italian Romance languages are considered dialetti. If true, then Standard Italian would not be a dialect of Italian!
2) "So I said "especially those with no political recognition". Still, Sardinian is still sometimes called a dialetto. The Wikipedia articles are actually in favor of my position. Please try not to misread what I say.". Sardinian is not considered as an Italian dialect among any reliable sources I have consulted. It just shows that people can get confused. Some people think the earth is flat!
3) ""Italian Dialects are the different linguistic varieties of Italian spoken in Italy", yet you subsumed regional Romance languages under this, which is linguistically not appropriate: These are not Italian linguistically, i.e. not dialectal forms of the Italian language.". "(b) “Why there is sometimes disagreements over which languages consist of Italo-Romance.” Then the actual disagreement should be documented, which would be nothing of the sort you've done." Wrong. I explained that the Gallo-Italic & Venetian languages are sometimes put in Western Romance, and sometimes in Italian Romance, depending on the linguist. Look at my sources, or the relevant WP articles.
4) "“Why the Gallo-Italic languages can be thought of being both Italian Romance and Western Romance.” What are you getting at? If you're going for them having characteristics of both Gallo-Romance and Italo-Romance: that's because there is a dialect continuum and the Gallo-Italic languages are in between.". This needs to be explained, otherwise it can cause considerable confusion, as shown by this conversation.
5) "“The difference between Italian dialects (same as Italian Romance) and Regional Italian.” The only valid definitions linguistically give Italian dialects = Regional Italian. Sociolinguistically, this need not be the case. But this article is about a strictly linguistic subject." Wrong. Please read the wikipedia articles to understand the difference between Italian dialects and Regional Italian, or I will explain if you so wish.
6) "“Italo-Dalmatian = Italian Romance plus Dalmatian. Italian Romance = Dialetti italiani.” Italian Romance ≠ dialetti italiani, not in any linguistically sensible way. Sociolinguistically, such an equalization could be pushed. That does not matter, because this article is about a linguistic clade and hence this article should no go into the messy details of linguo-politics. If there is a reliable source that says exactly so, it can be mentioned that Italian Romance is sometimes equated with the dialetti italiani, but also that this is not always the case." Well all the Italian Dialects I have come across, have also been described as Italian Romance in sources. What languages do you think this doesn't apply to? As I have explained earlier, the main debate is the Gallo-Italic & Venetian languages, which have been described as both Italian dialects and Italian Romance. I can quote sources if you wish.
7) "“Why many Romance languages spoken in Italy are not considered to be Italian dialects.” Politics. Political recognition has no bearing on an article about a clade in a language family." I disagree. For example the Rhaeto-romance languages spoken in Italy have a strong Gallic nature, it would difficult to describe them as Italian dialects. Considerable analysis has occurred from linguists, for example it is the reason why Sardinian is not considered Italian Romance by any reliable source.
8) "“That italo-Western is now supported by most linguists.” So? Even if true, this has little bearing on this article, aside from the infobox." The point is there is confusion over the Gallo-Italic languages and Venetian. There are two major groups of Italian Dialects spoken in Italy: the Northern (Settentrionale) dialects; and the Central-Southern (Centro-Meridionale) dialects. They are divided by the La Spezia–Rimini Line, which is an isogloss, a geographical line that divides the Italian dialects in terms of linguistics. It roughly follows the divide between the Italian regions of Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna. The line can also be thought as dividing the Western Romance from the Central (Italo-Dalmation) Romance, Sardinian Romance and Eastern Romance, the main four groups of Romance languages. But if Italo-Western is considered instead, there is no confusion over which group the Gallo-Italic languages and Venetian should be put into. -- Mrjulesd ( talk) 20:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Could we please observe some basic talk page etiquette here? Mrjules is making this almost completely unreadable between screwy formatting, random bold, posting walls of text and not threading his posts.
Guidelines request that we "keep the talk page attractively and clearly laid out, using standard indentation and formatting conventions." See WP:TPYES for more info. The Dissident Aggressor 22:45, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Hi all, a new article on Italo-Romance languages has just been proposed at AfC ( Draft:Italo-Romance languages). I have declined this meanwhile, as it seems to me that the new information would be better merged into this article. However, it is not my field so I could easily be wrong. If a consensus of those aready working here is that the new article would be a useful supplement, I will be glad to revisit this. Doric Loon ( talk) 13:08, 28 December 2022 (UTC)