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Does anyone know what the casualties were for the invasion? Red4tribe ( talk) 15:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
A page number has been requested for the reference from the following source: Titterton, G.A.; Brown, David. The Royal Navy and the Mediterranean. Great Britain Admiralty. I have been adding a few items to flesh this article out (the was NO link to the Western Desert Force), but that reference was in there when I started. Good luck! Mkpumphrey ( talk) 19:06, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
British 36,000 troops/Playfair, p. 93/Playfair, Chapter XI/85 Tanks/Playfair, p. 206; Of the 85 cruiser tanks in Egypt, 15 were in workshops at the beginning of September/150 Guns<ref name="Operation Compass">http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/wwii1.htm</ref>/48 Fighters <ref name="Operation Compass">http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/wwii1.htm '''Italian''' 215,000/Black, p. 57/200 Tanks/Andrew, p. 9/400 Guns<ref name="Operation Compass">[http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/wwii1.htm Operation Compass]/190 Fighters<ref name="Operation Compass">[http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/wwii1.htm Operation Compass]
Going off other military articles and comments made for other article during reviews, this is too much information in the infobox and should be worked into the main body of the article instead. The information has been placed here for temp storage.-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 19:23, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I now quote the text from page 47 word for word. Mkpumphrey ( talk) 21:43, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Footnote numbers will change when new citations are added or old ones are merged etc I cant see any mention within the entire article of page 47, are you sure you added the citation in?-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 07:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok before anyone else gets added i think we need to look at this the correct way. The invasion from the British perspective was a delaying action until they were in a position to counterattack at Mersa Matruh.
They delaying action fell to the 7th Armoured Division's, 7th Support Group - under the commander of Brigadier Gott. We have a citation for this.
For example, in the Operation Brevity article the commanders shown are Wavell (the theater commander, due to the operation being his idea) and Gott (the brigade commander in charge of the operation) - divisional and Corps commanders are missed out as they were irrelevent and did not take part. Now one is questioning why Wavell (again the theater commander) or O'Connor (the Corps commander) should be shown. Did they have any sort of active role in these 4 days? One would think the only other allied commander need to be shown would be the CO of the 7th Armoured division as Gotts superior - but then his he even relevent to the article?-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 00:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Why was this changed to inconclusive? It may not have been very pretty, but it was an Italian victory. Red4tribe ( talk) 02:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Keith-264 ( talk) 06:23, 16 September 2019 (UTC)After numerous delays, the scope of the offensive was reduced to an advance as far as Sidi Barrani, with attacks on British forces in the area.
I've removed this image of Italian
M13 tanks from the article; the image is dated 1941, while this campaign was in September 1940. Also, the M13 wasn't available in North Africa until December; the only Italian armour in this campaign were
L3/35s and a few
Fiat M11/39s.
It's a pity, because it's a good image, but it's completely anachronistic.
Xyl 54 (
talk)
23:21, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Swapped to SFNs to make it easier to integrate new material and added generic sections from WDC article. Keith-264 ( talk) 09:16, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Are jack-in-the-box oobs deprecated now? Keith-264 ( talk) 08:48, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
@ 202.67.46.17: can you provide a citation for the oob edit pls? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 16:30, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
@ 95.232.97.44: Have I got the British and Italian casualties the right way round? Keith-264 ( talk) 13:04, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Did a tidy up then changed my mind about some italicisation then tidied up several mistakes. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 13:15, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
The Italian victory was not decisive, as they could not invade Egypt at all. They only controlled the city of Sidi Barani, and then the British and Egyptian forces carried out a counter operation called the Bursa operation, and after that they succeeded in incursions into Libya and overthrew Italian Libya in the Second Battle of El Alamein-- Ahmed88z ( talk) 19:41, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
The article gives as its scope: the Italian incursion into Egypt between 9 - 16 September 1940 that resulted in the occupation of Sidi Barrani. Keith-264, as you appear to be one who is on-top of the sources for this article, would you care to list those sources which explicitly or implicitly refer to this as an "Italian victory". If such sources cannot be viewed online, would you please quote sufficient to show the context of such statements. I would extend the same to any other editor. Regards, Cinderella157 ( talk) 00:44, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
I found that other articles such as French, German, Spanish, Chinese article concludes this battle as "strategic victory for Allies" or "Indecisive". And I found there is no mention for "Operazione E" in other articles, even in Italian. So, I think there are two problems here. First is whether "Operazione E" is used in the same meaning as "Italian invasion of Egypt". And second is whether there is evidence that contradicts the decision of "Italy's decisive victory."
I already found the references that is against for "Italy's decisive victory", Kenneth Macksey, Beda Fomm: Classic Victory, p. 47. And it mentioned that Mussolini thought this battle was much beneficent to British than Italian. -- Wendylove ( talk) 04:12, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
(for biblio details see article)
Due to ongoing edit warring, this article has been protected for 1 week. Please use this time to discuss and come to a consensus on what the article should say. Protection is not an endorsement of the current page version. Stifle ( talk) 10:10, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Regarding the victory of Italy, Italy did not win this war decisively, as it advanced and took control of the city of Sidi Barani only and for a short time, after which the British forces attacked the Italian forces and captured a large number of them, and even occupied Cyrenaica in Libya and then Italian Libya fell Ahmed88z ( talk) 04:12, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
The number of casualties mentioned in the third paragraph of the introduction doesn't match the number of Casualties and Losses listed in the table in the right sidebar. Chuckc192000 ( talk) 03:02, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
@ DuncanHill: Commendably quick reactions Duncan, how now? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 22:57, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Keith-274 Why put few flags . I mean Every Battle I saw in Wikipedia has a flag all of them.Can you tell me why? Jheeeeeeteegh ( talk) 07:10, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
Flags. Flag icons should generally not be used in infoboxes, even when there is a "country", "nationality" or equivalent field: they are unnecessarily distracting and give undue prominence to one field among many. my bolding. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 07:43, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Italian invasion of Egypt article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on September 16, 2012, September 16, 2015, September 16, 2016, September 16, 2017, September 16, 2018, September 16, 2019, September 16, 2020, and September 16, 2022. |
Does anyone know what the casualties were for the invasion? Red4tribe ( talk) 15:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
A page number has been requested for the reference from the following source: Titterton, G.A.; Brown, David. The Royal Navy and the Mediterranean. Great Britain Admiralty. I have been adding a few items to flesh this article out (the was NO link to the Western Desert Force), but that reference was in there when I started. Good luck! Mkpumphrey ( talk) 19:06, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
British 36,000 troops/Playfair, p. 93/Playfair, Chapter XI/85 Tanks/Playfair, p. 206; Of the 85 cruiser tanks in Egypt, 15 were in workshops at the beginning of September/150 Guns<ref name="Operation Compass">http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/wwii1.htm</ref>/48 Fighters <ref name="Operation Compass">http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/wwii1.htm '''Italian''' 215,000/Black, p. 57/200 Tanks/Andrew, p. 9/400 Guns<ref name="Operation Compass">[http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/wwii1.htm Operation Compass]/190 Fighters<ref name="Operation Compass">[http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/wwii1.htm Operation Compass]
Going off other military articles and comments made for other article during reviews, this is too much information in the infobox and should be worked into the main body of the article instead. The information has been placed here for temp storage.-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 19:23, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I now quote the text from page 47 word for word. Mkpumphrey ( talk) 21:43, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Footnote numbers will change when new citations are added or old ones are merged etc I cant see any mention within the entire article of page 47, are you sure you added the citation in?-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 07:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok before anyone else gets added i think we need to look at this the correct way. The invasion from the British perspective was a delaying action until they were in a position to counterattack at Mersa Matruh.
They delaying action fell to the 7th Armoured Division's, 7th Support Group - under the commander of Brigadier Gott. We have a citation for this.
For example, in the Operation Brevity article the commanders shown are Wavell (the theater commander, due to the operation being his idea) and Gott (the brigade commander in charge of the operation) - divisional and Corps commanders are missed out as they were irrelevent and did not take part. Now one is questioning why Wavell (again the theater commander) or O'Connor (the Corps commander) should be shown. Did they have any sort of active role in these 4 days? One would think the only other allied commander need to be shown would be the CO of the 7th Armoured division as Gotts superior - but then his he even relevent to the article?-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 00:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Why was this changed to inconclusive? It may not have been very pretty, but it was an Italian victory. Red4tribe ( talk) 02:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Keith-264 ( talk) 06:23, 16 September 2019 (UTC)After numerous delays, the scope of the offensive was reduced to an advance as far as Sidi Barrani, with attacks on British forces in the area.
I've removed this image of Italian
M13 tanks from the article; the image is dated 1941, while this campaign was in September 1940. Also, the M13 wasn't available in North Africa until December; the only Italian armour in this campaign were
L3/35s and a few
Fiat M11/39s.
It's a pity, because it's a good image, but it's completely anachronistic.
Xyl 54 (
talk)
23:21, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Swapped to SFNs to make it easier to integrate new material and added generic sections from WDC article. Keith-264 ( talk) 09:16, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Are jack-in-the-box oobs deprecated now? Keith-264 ( talk) 08:48, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
@ 202.67.46.17: can you provide a citation for the oob edit pls? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 16:30, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
@ 95.232.97.44: Have I got the British and Italian casualties the right way round? Keith-264 ( talk) 13:04, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Did a tidy up then changed my mind about some italicisation then tidied up several mistakes. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 13:15, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
The Italian victory was not decisive, as they could not invade Egypt at all. They only controlled the city of Sidi Barani, and then the British and Egyptian forces carried out a counter operation called the Bursa operation, and after that they succeeded in incursions into Libya and overthrew Italian Libya in the Second Battle of El Alamein-- Ahmed88z ( talk) 19:41, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
The article gives as its scope: the Italian incursion into Egypt between 9 - 16 September 1940 that resulted in the occupation of Sidi Barrani. Keith-264, as you appear to be one who is on-top of the sources for this article, would you care to list those sources which explicitly or implicitly refer to this as an "Italian victory". If such sources cannot be viewed online, would you please quote sufficient to show the context of such statements. I would extend the same to any other editor. Regards, Cinderella157 ( talk) 00:44, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
I found that other articles such as French, German, Spanish, Chinese article concludes this battle as "strategic victory for Allies" or "Indecisive". And I found there is no mention for "Operazione E" in other articles, even in Italian. So, I think there are two problems here. First is whether "Operazione E" is used in the same meaning as "Italian invasion of Egypt". And second is whether there is evidence that contradicts the decision of "Italy's decisive victory."
I already found the references that is against for "Italy's decisive victory", Kenneth Macksey, Beda Fomm: Classic Victory, p. 47. And it mentioned that Mussolini thought this battle was much beneficent to British than Italian. -- Wendylove ( talk) 04:12, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
(for biblio details see article)
Due to ongoing edit warring, this article has been protected for 1 week. Please use this time to discuss and come to a consensus on what the article should say. Protection is not an endorsement of the current page version. Stifle ( talk) 10:10, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Regarding the victory of Italy, Italy did not win this war decisively, as it advanced and took control of the city of Sidi Barani only and for a short time, after which the British forces attacked the Italian forces and captured a large number of them, and even occupied Cyrenaica in Libya and then Italian Libya fell Ahmed88z ( talk) 04:12, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
The number of casualties mentioned in the third paragraph of the introduction doesn't match the number of Casualties and Losses listed in the table in the right sidebar. Chuckc192000 ( talk) 03:02, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
@ DuncanHill: Commendably quick reactions Duncan, how now? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 22:57, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Keith-274 Why put few flags . I mean Every Battle I saw in Wikipedia has a flag all of them.Can you tell me why? Jheeeeeeteegh ( talk) 07:10, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
Flags. Flag icons should generally not be used in infoboxes, even when there is a "country", "nationality" or equivalent field: they are unnecessarily distracting and give undue prominence to one field among many. my bolding. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 07:43, 31 July 2023 (UTC)