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Hello. I put the following tags to the page: {{ Original research}}, {{ Refimprove}} because the article as a whole has just six references and most of the sections have no reference at all. I don't know who originally provided the information, but if that user reaches this page could you please be kind enough and add those references to the article? Cheers. -- Mhsb ( talk) 05:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The title of this article is politically incorrect, as it implies that those people are foreigners, or are so considered by themselves or by other Brazilians. The correct way to refer to them - especially for people who are not Brazilian - is "Brazilians of Italian descent". Ninguém ( talk) 14:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I undid Opinoso's removal of what he thinks is "vandalism". There is absolutely no conection between the introduction of coffee plantations and immigration. Coffee had been a major culture in São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro much before abolition, and slaves were used in coffee plantations in large numbers. In fact, the 11 representatives that voted against abolition in 1888 were from the coffee plantation area of Rio de Janeiro. So it is not true that "coffee demanded better trained workers" when compared to cotton or sugarcane.
A good read about the subject is Paula Beiguelman's " A FORMAÇÃO DO POVO NO COMPLEXO CAFEEIRO". Ninguém ( talk) 14:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Nobody is saying slaves did not work in coffee plantations, the article does say that, but after the end of slave traffic (1850) and slavery (1888), the immigration of Italians took place to replace the Africans.
With the arrival of the Italians, coffee reached 60% of Brazil's exports.
I am sorry, but you know nothing about Brazilian History.
Please, stop vandalism in this article. Opinoso ( talk) 15:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
If you know any Portuguese, read this article: Fim da escravidão gera medidas de apoio a imigração no Brasil
Opinoso ( talk) 15:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I know very little of this subject, but it appears to me this entire section is WP:OR and WP:POV. Also, the phrase "In Brazil, 65% of the Italian immigrants came from Northern Italy" is unsupported. A simple addition of the regions in the list below it prove it to be about 50-50, similar to Argentina. I also removed the very unbalanced POV comments that followed that sentence. It purported to have a citation, which tho' quite long, I skimmed through and found it makes no such statement. Simply put, the comment was bullshit. Dionix ( talk) 23:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
A lot seems to depend on if you slice Italy in two (north, south) or three (north, central, south). Even your source says that after the Venetians (30% of the total) the largest groups came from Campania and Calabria (both south no matter how you slice it). And to say the list doesn't include the three regions you list are misleading because two of them were part of Veneto or Austria prior to WW2, and thus denominated as such, and any numbers from Aosta would be very small anyways. Also, I don't think you are correct in saying after 1920 most were still from the north.
This source, among many others, says the opposite.
Finally, I added the following to
User:Opinoso's talk page: Regarding Brazil, you are correct in that I had removed the reference, but I'm still not sure it supports the statement you are making. My understanding of Portuguese is limited, but "os imigrantes do sul eram morenos" does not imply the Venetians are not (many are); and it doesn't support the statement that Northern Italians were preferred under the "Whitening project". Am I missing something in the translation?
Dionix (
talk)
00:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
-- Quissamã ( talk) 02:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
The article says: "A bunch of loan words (italianisms), such as ravióli, espaguete, macarrão, nhoque, pizza, lasanha, panetone, esquifoso, feltro, pivete, bisonho, cicerone, and many others." This interpretation is fundamentally flawed. For one thing, "loan word" does not equal "Italianism." Second, the examples cited here are Luso-fied pronunciations of actual Italian words--approximated pronunciations of Italian foods, not "Italianisms." In the United States, the words "lasagna" or "spaghetti" don't count as "loan words," regardless of whether or not the spelling of the original Italian is modified (gnocchi vs. "nhoque," etc). "Chow mein" in Chinese-American cuisine is not a loan word, as there are not loan words. They are the titles of various Italian foods, nothing more. A true "Italianism" would be actual Italian usage working its way into local vocabularies, as in the Argentine "manyar" or "laburar." These claims need to be modified. -- Lulletc ( talk) 16:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
However, there's a strong influence from the Italian dialects in the spoken Portuguese of São Paulo and in some other areas of Southern Brazil; these influences are stronger in people's accent than in their vocabulary. Opinoso ( talk) 16:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Some of the words referred in the article did not come from Italian through immigrants. For instance, compare "ciao", which indeed came through immigrants, an is pronounced (and often even written) "tchau", to "cicerone" which is always pronounced "sisserone" (because it was imported via written Italian) instead of "tchitcherone" (as it would be the case if it had been imported through oral Italian). Ninguém ( talk) 14:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Other issue is the suppposed influence of Italian pronunciation on Portuguese spoken in São Paulo. The differences between the pronunciation in São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro do not seem to match what would be expected if they were caused by Italian influence. For an Italian speaker, it is very difficult to pronounce Portuguese nasal diphtongs, or to distinguish the different Portuguese vowels "ê" and "é", or "ô" and "ó". However, Portuguese spoken in São Paulo city does not have a different pronunciation of these phonems, when compared to Rio de Janeiro - or, when they do, such as is the case of stressed vowels, which tend to become elongated, and even diphtongated in São Paulo city, it is hard to correlate this with Italian influence. It is true that the pronounce of post-vocalic /s/ and /r/ in São Paulo city does seem closer to the Italian pronounce, as the /s/ is not palatalized, and the /r/ is not gutural, but this would also be the usual pronounciation in many parts of Portugal, where Italian influence is minimal. Ninguém ( talk) 14:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
There is no connection between Slave Emancipation and the booming immigration despite they were simultaneous events. Lack of labor was the only cause as ever. Freed slaves continued to work hardly in plantations. Just think about it!
It is wrong and has a touch of racism to mention the Slave Emancipation as the cause of the booming immigration.
-- Quissamã ( talk) 19:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Dear Opinoso.
Read the referenced sources. The erased information are not provided by the referenced source. I rewrote to keep the information that is in the referenced source, although a high-school text is not exactly a reliable source.
Also, the erased text has a racist bias. It gives the wrong notion that Slave Emancipation was the cause of the lack of labor in coffee plantations. Certainly, who wrote this text believes that black people is lazy and fled the plantations work as soon as they were allowed to do so. Most of them remained in the plantations receiving small wages as freed men.
Indeed, all the coffee was gathered in 1888 despite the fear of the former slaves masters. (My source: Stanley Stein. Vassouras, a Coffee Country).
You need to read a book. Any book.
--
Quissamã (
talk)
21:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
It is astonishing how some racist bias and lack of historical knowledge can provide some garbage in Wikipedia, specially in the Italian Brazilian topic, like these:
For this reason, immigrants from Northern Italy were most desired by the Brazilian government, since their physical characteristics would bring desired results to the "whitening project" of the Brazilian people citation needed.
After 1888, when the slavery was finally abolished by a decree of the Imperial government, the number of farm workers fell drastically in Brazil, due to the fact that most black (former) slaves, with no lands of their own and no money to buy them, moved mostly to urban areas citation needed
Just POV garbage. And racist POV.
PS: A decree is different from a law. The name was Lei Áurea, a law proposed (by João Alfredo) and voted by Congressmen; it was not an imperial decree, proposed by the Emperor or the Regent-Princess.
I´ll be back
-- Quissamã ( talk) 01:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
The following text is totally unnecessary. It´s better move it to Adoniran Barbosa biography. An English speaker will never distinguish the Italian and Portuguese words of this lyrics. For him/her, they look the same.
By the way, it was a pidgin or a dialect. People should know the difference before write such nonsense.
Brazilian samba singer Adoniran Barbosa (stage name of João Rubinato), the son of Italian immigrants, was born in the town of Valinhos, São Paulo. Barbosa was known as the composer to the lower classes of São Paulo, particularly the poor Italian immigrants living in the quarters of Bexiga (Bela Vista) and Brás, as well as the poor who lived in the city's many shanties and cortiços (degraded multifamily row houses). He knew well the pidgin Italian-Portuguese dialect citation needed spoken in the streets of São Paulo, mostly in the sections of Mooca, Brás and Bexiga. In 1965, Barbosa wrote Samba Italiano (Italian Samba), a song that emphasized the influence of the Italian in São Paulo's spoken language.
Original in São Paulo's pidgin Gioconda, piccina mia,
Piove, piove,
Ti ricordi, Gioconda,
|
Free translation to English Gioconda, my little
It rains, it rains
Do you remember, Gioconda
|
-- Quissamã ( talk) 02:34, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
I moved the text above to
Adoniran Barbosa article. I believe it is better now.
-- Quissamã ( talk) 04:36, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Although not clear, complete or precise, the Wikipedia definitions can help.
A pidgin is a simplified language that develops as a means of communication between two or more groups that do not have a language in common, in situations such as trade.
A dialect (from the Greek word διάλεκτος, dialektos) is a variety of a language that is characteristic of a particular group of the language's speakers.[1] The term is applied most often to regional speech patterns, but a dialect may also be defined by other factors, such as social class.[2] A dialect is a complete system of verbal communication (oral or signed, but not necessarily written) with its own vocabulary and grammar.
A dialect is distinguished by its vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation (phonology, including prosody). Where a distinction can be made only in terms of pronunciation, the term accent is appropriate, not dialect (although in common usage, "dialect" and "accent" are usually synonymous). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quissamã ( talk • contribs) 05:14, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
I made some changes to that section. It used to give the impression that the language spoken in São Paulo is some kind of mixture of Portuguese and Italian, which is false. Portuguese of São Paulo is Brazilian Portuguese, with very small variation from Brazilian Portuguese spoken elsewhere. There is a characteristic "paulistano" (ie, from São Paulo city) accent, which can perhaps be attributed to Italian influence, but no signs of Portuguese-Italian pidginisation or creolisation, much less "dialects". In São Paulo hinterland, the "caipira" accent still predominates. The Talian dialect of Rio Grande do Sul, on the other hand, is a modified Venetian dialect, also not a Portuguese-Italian mixture. Ninguém ( talk) 14:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Also, it must be noted that colloquial Portuguese spoken in São Paulo city is much closer to both Standard Brazilian Portuguese and colloquial Portuguese spoken in other areas of Brazil than colloquial Portuguese spoken in São Paulo hinterland. Ninguém ( talk) 14:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Can anybody please help with finding English language citations and inserting them in the article in place of the foreign language ones? Thank you, -- Tom 23:43, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Ninguem,
I just saw your recent change in the Italian Brazilian article, I don’t agree with your numbers, I do understand your point that the vast majority of people with Italian ancestry have lost their Italian identity, however, I have to point out that the same can be said of Italian Argentineans and Italian Americans, still, all articles at Wikipedia gives the total population number with Italian ancestry, and not cultural connection. I suggest a compromise here, he have to put in the box the 25 million and make a note. As quality of sources go, the Italian government is more reliable than Miguel Angel Garcia, I checked this author, he is not let’s say a real ‘demographer’ he is more like a sociologist that used very ‘unusual’ ways of research for this paper. We can use his data on the note, but not as the official number, it would be unfair and I believe against the rules of Wikipedia. Regards, Paulista01 ( talk) 14:59, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Ninguem,
You may be correct that Brazil does not have 25 million people of Italian descent, however, we are not supposed to argue about this here, as an encyclopedia we have to do our best to use sources, good sources, to totally disqualify the Italian government is not correct, and to tell you the truth from my point of view it is a little offensive. Regarding Brazil being ‘unicultural’, I disagree. Brazil has different cultures, especially regional differences, I do not want to start an argument about this though since I believe it is irrelevant and neither I nor any other editor should use this as a basis to write articles here. I agree that the Brazilian government has usually pushed towards a ‘unicultural’ environment, were they successful? I have my doubts. I have hundreds of examples that show the contrary. It is very undemocratic for a government or anybody to tell other people what they are and what they are not. If not, we may fall into the same trap that some of our fellow editors did, I believe you know the editor I am talking about. Personal opinion and agendas are clearly against the rules of this encyclopedia. So my solution is: let’s stick to the rules, report the 25 million and make a note about other figures or add something directly after the 25 million. This way we are respecting the different points of view that we are required to represent and we are being neutral. One thing we cannot do is simply delete a figure or a number, especially a government figure. Regards, Paulista01 ( talk) 18:13, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, the Italian government has used this number more than once, you can see it even on the website of the Italian Embassy in Brasilia, I have seen this number once in the website of the Italian foreign relations ministry. Now, it always says circa 25,000,000. To me it looks like you are making a big deal out of this. I don’t believe you have an anti Italian view, but I can not understand why the strong push on this. We have very different points of view on this, it is okay we are not expected to agree on everything, I believe you are a good editor and you have a lot to contribute. I think we can resolve this easily, I also believe we both should not waste time on this issue. We have a lot of articles that we can work. Using both the sources you suggested and the sources already in the article, here is what I suggest, following the rules, this is how it should look - all based on government info, either Brazil or Italy:
c. 17,000,000 - 25,000,000 (note) of whom
c. 300,000 are Italian citizens
c. 500,000 have requested Italian citizenship
(note – Estimates for people with Italian ancestry: 17,000,000 or 10% of the Brazilian population in 1998 according to IBGE (Brazilian government), 25,000,000 according to the Italian government in 2004).
Can you give me the data from IBGE? I need it to add to the sources.
Regards, Paulista01 ( talk) 00:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
http://www.italiaoggi.com.br/migrazioni/noticias/migra_20061020a.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theuser777 ( talk • contribs) 17:14, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Richard asr ( talk) 10:33, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
What exactly are the sources that support the lead of this article?
It says:
A google search shows that this phrase isn't used in such sense, except in Wikipedia and its mirrors. English dictionaries do not list the phrase. The article also gives "ítalo-brasileiro" as the translation of "Italian Brazilian". A google search shows that "ítalo-brasileiro" is also not used in this sense, except in... Wikipedia and its mirrors. Portuguese dictionaries, while they do list "ítalo-brasileiro", do not define it as "a person born in Brazil of Italian ancestry"; they list it only as an adjective, and define it as "relating to Italy and Brazil".
So I am proposing that this article is renamed to something that can actually be supported (as, for instance, "Brazilians of Italian descent"/"descendentes de italianos"). Objections, please? Ninguém ( talk) 15:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
So there are no sources supporting the existence of a social phenomenon called "Italian Brazilians". Your analogies are very poor. It is quite obvious that there is something called "Italian Americans": a google search will reveal many uses of such phrase exactly in the sence it is used in Italian American. A google search for "Italian Brazilian" or "ítalo-brasileiro" shows the opposite: it is not used, except in Wikipedia. It is not notable, it has no real life relevance. Your speculation about Northern Italians being more related to Austria seems another invention (where is the source for that?), but is completely irrelevant anyway: they are "Italians" because they are Italian citizens; "Italian Brazilians" are nor Italians neither Italian citizens.
Where is the source for the lead? Ninguém ( talk) 18:59, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Of the sources you cite, only one ( Mão biônica funciona com sucesso em ítalo-brasileiro) uses the term in a similar way - probably because it is a translation from Italian. And it certainly isn't an article about "Italian Brazilians"; it is an article about bionics. The "Italian Brazilian" in question, anyway, seems to live in Italy, which would mean he is quite connected to Italy, if not to Italian culture. The other sources have nothing to do with "Italian Brazilians"; they use "ítalo-brasileiro" as an adjective that applies to colleges, conferences, symposions, schools, relations, etc - not as a substantive that designates a set of people, like in this article. This is the way the word is used in Brazil, completely different of its use in the United States. We shouldn't be using analogies to other Wikipedia articles (which aren't reliable sources anyway). Half of these seem to me outright inventions ("Italian Peruvian", "Italo-Venezuelans", "Italian Lebanese", "Italian Egyptians", which I very much doubt refer to any real demographic phenomenon). If there is any reliable source about the set of people described in this article that calls them "Italian Brazilian" or "ítalo-brasileiros", then I agree it should stay as it is. But it is quite unlikely. Ninguém ( talk) 20:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
If it only refers to ancestry, what is the problem with "Brazilians of Italian descent"?
There are still no sources for the lead statement. Provide one, the discussion ends. Ninguém ( talk) 02:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
And, of course, it is easy to prove that it is not "just ancestry". Here is what Italian American says:
So, at least for Wikipedia, Italian Americans are an ethnic group - not "just an ancestry". If this article talks about something that is "just ancestry", why does it strive to clonate an article about an ethnic group? Ninguém ( talk) 15:56, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I strongly oppose I am not going to waste my time with this discussion again, the editor Ninguem is constantly trying to sabotage this article.. The term is widely used, and he knows it, he is playing games again. Ciao. Paulista01 ( talk) 14:40, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
The point is not to find sources that have the phrase "Italian Brazilian", but sources that say, or strongly imply, this:
Do any of the above say something similar? Ninguém ( talk) 15:47, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Let's see the first of the sources cited above:
Revisioning Italy: national identity and global culture By Beverly Allen, Mary J. Russo
It uses the expression "Italian Brazilian" three times. The first (page 214) and the third (page 229) fall into pages that are not actually accessible to the reader; very short, and perhaps uncontextual cites are provided. Here is the first:
It mentions an "Italian-Brazilian" household; for what I can grasp from the rest of the book, this would be the household in which Zelia Gattai lived when a child, with her parents, both of them children of Italian immigrants. I don't think this makes the case that all Brazilians of Italian descent constitute a group called "Italian Brazilians".
The third one goes like this:
So this sentence directly classifies an eight-year-old grandaughter of Italian immigrants, living within what this book calls an "Italian community", an "Italian-Brazilian". Which, while isn't a clear statement that all Brazilians of Italian descent are "Italian Brazilian", could be taken as some indication that the author reasons within this conceptual frame. But, what if Zelia Gattai was fifth, not third generation? Or if she descended from Italian immigrants on one side, but not on the other? Would she be "Italian Brazilian" in the opinion of this author? The answer is, we don't know, and this book does not allow us to determine it. How is it going to be used as a source to support the idea expressed in the lead of this article?
On the other hand, the author is directly contradicted by the "subject" of her study, who claims "we" (she and her sister) "felt ourselves to be wholly Brazilian". Which seems to imply that at least some (unmixed third generation, i.e., very close to original immigrants) Brazilians of Italian descent do not consider themselves "Italian Brazilians". Who is right here?
The second, and only that can be actually read in its context (page 227), is the following:
So "Italian-Brazilian" is used here in relation to a "community", not in relation to individual people. That such "community" - as long as we can talk of a Gemeinschaft in a bourgeoning capitalist society - was "Italian-Brazilian" is beyond doubt, as it was composed of Italian citizens living in Brazil, Italian-born Brazilian citizens, and children born to the former categories. That the individuals in such community were "Italian Brazilians" is a different issue, that the text does not make clear. What it makes clear is that this is not the "identity" chosen by Zelia and Vera Gattai (and so, again, that not all Brazilians of Italian descent consider themselves "Italian-Brazilian").
The other two sources you mention barely deserve an appreciation. The Rough guide to Brazil uses the phrase "Italian-Brazilian" only once, to tell us that an expensive restaurant in Rio de Janeiro, Marius Crustáceos, serves "Italian-Brazilian" cuisine (The menu is varied, though "Italian-Brazilian" styles dominate). Nothing about "Italian Brazilians" as a collective name for all Brazilians of Italian ancestry.
The Cambridge History of Latin American Literature: Brazilian literature ... By Roberto González Echevarría, Enrique Pupo-Walker also uses the phrase "Italian-Brazilian" only once, to describe a person:
So here we have one individual being called "Italian-Brazilian". But there is absolutely no attempt to define this category; it sounds like a nonce-word, something shorter to say than "Italian-born Brazilian industrialist Franco Zampari" or "industrialist Franco Zampari, an Italian immigrant in Brazil". Besides the obvious fact that Zampari himself was an immigrant, born in Italy, and as such an Italian citizen at least until naturalisation - not a Brazilian-born Brazilian citizen of distant, or non-exclusive, Italian descent - I don't see how this can be in any way construed as a statement that "An Italian Brazilian is a person born in Brazil of Italian ancestry". Ninguém ( talk) 17:36, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Well, then source the sentence with this citation. Ninguém ( talk) 20:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
This article gives most of its focus to immigration around 1900 because thats when most of the immigration happened. However, tens of thousands of italians immigrated to Brazil after WWII in programs that the Italian government agreed to to ease tensions after the war. (Im getting my info from Italians in Brazil: The Post World War II Experience by Gloria La Cavaz). Doesn't this deserve mentioning? NealJMD ( talk) 23:25, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
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In Germany many Italian Ice and Pizza restaurants had big problems to find workers on weekend. The Italian Director can look for Employment Service working in a restaurant with a EU Passport, like Brazilians with a second passport from the Republic Italy. The orders to clean the restaurant will be given in Italy- The missing German language can be learned Job.
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Hello. I put the following tags to the page: {{ Original research}}, {{ Refimprove}} because the article as a whole has just six references and most of the sections have no reference at all. I don't know who originally provided the information, but if that user reaches this page could you please be kind enough and add those references to the article? Cheers. -- Mhsb ( talk) 05:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The title of this article is politically incorrect, as it implies that those people are foreigners, or are so considered by themselves or by other Brazilians. The correct way to refer to them - especially for people who are not Brazilian - is "Brazilians of Italian descent". Ninguém ( talk) 14:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I undid Opinoso's removal of what he thinks is "vandalism". There is absolutely no conection between the introduction of coffee plantations and immigration. Coffee had been a major culture in São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro much before abolition, and slaves were used in coffee plantations in large numbers. In fact, the 11 representatives that voted against abolition in 1888 were from the coffee plantation area of Rio de Janeiro. So it is not true that "coffee demanded better trained workers" when compared to cotton or sugarcane.
A good read about the subject is Paula Beiguelman's " A FORMAÇÃO DO POVO NO COMPLEXO CAFEEIRO". Ninguém ( talk) 14:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Nobody is saying slaves did not work in coffee plantations, the article does say that, but after the end of slave traffic (1850) and slavery (1888), the immigration of Italians took place to replace the Africans.
With the arrival of the Italians, coffee reached 60% of Brazil's exports.
I am sorry, but you know nothing about Brazilian History.
Please, stop vandalism in this article. Opinoso ( talk) 15:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
If you know any Portuguese, read this article: Fim da escravidão gera medidas de apoio a imigração no Brasil
Opinoso ( talk) 15:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I know very little of this subject, but it appears to me this entire section is WP:OR and WP:POV. Also, the phrase "In Brazil, 65% of the Italian immigrants came from Northern Italy" is unsupported. A simple addition of the regions in the list below it prove it to be about 50-50, similar to Argentina. I also removed the very unbalanced POV comments that followed that sentence. It purported to have a citation, which tho' quite long, I skimmed through and found it makes no such statement. Simply put, the comment was bullshit. Dionix ( talk) 23:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
A lot seems to depend on if you slice Italy in two (north, south) or three (north, central, south). Even your source says that after the Venetians (30% of the total) the largest groups came from Campania and Calabria (both south no matter how you slice it). And to say the list doesn't include the three regions you list are misleading because two of them were part of Veneto or Austria prior to WW2, and thus denominated as such, and any numbers from Aosta would be very small anyways. Also, I don't think you are correct in saying after 1920 most were still from the north.
This source, among many others, says the opposite.
Finally, I added the following to
User:Opinoso's talk page: Regarding Brazil, you are correct in that I had removed the reference, but I'm still not sure it supports the statement you are making. My understanding of Portuguese is limited, but "os imigrantes do sul eram morenos" does not imply the Venetians are not (many are); and it doesn't support the statement that Northern Italians were preferred under the "Whitening project". Am I missing something in the translation?
Dionix (
talk)
00:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
-- Quissamã ( talk) 02:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
The article says: "A bunch of loan words (italianisms), such as ravióli, espaguete, macarrão, nhoque, pizza, lasanha, panetone, esquifoso, feltro, pivete, bisonho, cicerone, and many others." This interpretation is fundamentally flawed. For one thing, "loan word" does not equal "Italianism." Second, the examples cited here are Luso-fied pronunciations of actual Italian words--approximated pronunciations of Italian foods, not "Italianisms." In the United States, the words "lasagna" or "spaghetti" don't count as "loan words," regardless of whether or not the spelling of the original Italian is modified (gnocchi vs. "nhoque," etc). "Chow mein" in Chinese-American cuisine is not a loan word, as there are not loan words. They are the titles of various Italian foods, nothing more. A true "Italianism" would be actual Italian usage working its way into local vocabularies, as in the Argentine "manyar" or "laburar." These claims need to be modified. -- Lulletc ( talk) 16:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
However, there's a strong influence from the Italian dialects in the spoken Portuguese of São Paulo and in some other areas of Southern Brazil; these influences are stronger in people's accent than in their vocabulary. Opinoso ( talk) 16:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Some of the words referred in the article did not come from Italian through immigrants. For instance, compare "ciao", which indeed came through immigrants, an is pronounced (and often even written) "tchau", to "cicerone" which is always pronounced "sisserone" (because it was imported via written Italian) instead of "tchitcherone" (as it would be the case if it had been imported through oral Italian). Ninguém ( talk) 14:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Other issue is the suppposed influence of Italian pronunciation on Portuguese spoken in São Paulo. The differences between the pronunciation in São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro do not seem to match what would be expected if they were caused by Italian influence. For an Italian speaker, it is very difficult to pronounce Portuguese nasal diphtongs, or to distinguish the different Portuguese vowels "ê" and "é", or "ô" and "ó". However, Portuguese spoken in São Paulo city does not have a different pronunciation of these phonems, when compared to Rio de Janeiro - or, when they do, such as is the case of stressed vowels, which tend to become elongated, and even diphtongated in São Paulo city, it is hard to correlate this with Italian influence. It is true that the pronounce of post-vocalic /s/ and /r/ in São Paulo city does seem closer to the Italian pronounce, as the /s/ is not palatalized, and the /r/ is not gutural, but this would also be the usual pronounciation in many parts of Portugal, where Italian influence is minimal. Ninguém ( talk) 14:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
There is no connection between Slave Emancipation and the booming immigration despite they were simultaneous events. Lack of labor was the only cause as ever. Freed slaves continued to work hardly in plantations. Just think about it!
It is wrong and has a touch of racism to mention the Slave Emancipation as the cause of the booming immigration.
-- Quissamã ( talk) 19:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Dear Opinoso.
Read the referenced sources. The erased information are not provided by the referenced source. I rewrote to keep the information that is in the referenced source, although a high-school text is not exactly a reliable source.
Also, the erased text has a racist bias. It gives the wrong notion that Slave Emancipation was the cause of the lack of labor in coffee plantations. Certainly, who wrote this text believes that black people is lazy and fled the plantations work as soon as they were allowed to do so. Most of them remained in the plantations receiving small wages as freed men.
Indeed, all the coffee was gathered in 1888 despite the fear of the former slaves masters. (My source: Stanley Stein. Vassouras, a Coffee Country).
You need to read a book. Any book.
--
Quissamã (
talk)
21:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
It is astonishing how some racist bias and lack of historical knowledge can provide some garbage in Wikipedia, specially in the Italian Brazilian topic, like these:
For this reason, immigrants from Northern Italy were most desired by the Brazilian government, since their physical characteristics would bring desired results to the "whitening project" of the Brazilian people citation needed.
After 1888, when the slavery was finally abolished by a decree of the Imperial government, the number of farm workers fell drastically in Brazil, due to the fact that most black (former) slaves, with no lands of their own and no money to buy them, moved mostly to urban areas citation needed
Just POV garbage. And racist POV.
PS: A decree is different from a law. The name was Lei Áurea, a law proposed (by João Alfredo) and voted by Congressmen; it was not an imperial decree, proposed by the Emperor or the Regent-Princess.
I´ll be back
-- Quissamã ( talk) 01:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
The following text is totally unnecessary. It´s better move it to Adoniran Barbosa biography. An English speaker will never distinguish the Italian and Portuguese words of this lyrics. For him/her, they look the same.
By the way, it was a pidgin or a dialect. People should know the difference before write such nonsense.
Brazilian samba singer Adoniran Barbosa (stage name of João Rubinato), the son of Italian immigrants, was born in the town of Valinhos, São Paulo. Barbosa was known as the composer to the lower classes of São Paulo, particularly the poor Italian immigrants living in the quarters of Bexiga (Bela Vista) and Brás, as well as the poor who lived in the city's many shanties and cortiços (degraded multifamily row houses). He knew well the pidgin Italian-Portuguese dialect citation needed spoken in the streets of São Paulo, mostly in the sections of Mooca, Brás and Bexiga. In 1965, Barbosa wrote Samba Italiano (Italian Samba), a song that emphasized the influence of the Italian in São Paulo's spoken language.
Original in São Paulo's pidgin Gioconda, piccina mia,
Piove, piove,
Ti ricordi, Gioconda,
|
Free translation to English Gioconda, my little
It rains, it rains
Do you remember, Gioconda
|
-- Quissamã ( talk) 02:34, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
I moved the text above to
Adoniran Barbosa article. I believe it is better now.
-- Quissamã ( talk) 04:36, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Although not clear, complete or precise, the Wikipedia definitions can help.
A pidgin is a simplified language that develops as a means of communication between two or more groups that do not have a language in common, in situations such as trade.
A dialect (from the Greek word διάλεκτος, dialektos) is a variety of a language that is characteristic of a particular group of the language's speakers.[1] The term is applied most often to regional speech patterns, but a dialect may also be defined by other factors, such as social class.[2] A dialect is a complete system of verbal communication (oral or signed, but not necessarily written) with its own vocabulary and grammar.
A dialect is distinguished by its vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation (phonology, including prosody). Where a distinction can be made only in terms of pronunciation, the term accent is appropriate, not dialect (although in common usage, "dialect" and "accent" are usually synonymous). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quissamã ( talk • contribs) 05:14, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
I made some changes to that section. It used to give the impression that the language spoken in São Paulo is some kind of mixture of Portuguese and Italian, which is false. Portuguese of São Paulo is Brazilian Portuguese, with very small variation from Brazilian Portuguese spoken elsewhere. There is a characteristic "paulistano" (ie, from São Paulo city) accent, which can perhaps be attributed to Italian influence, but no signs of Portuguese-Italian pidginisation or creolisation, much less "dialects". In São Paulo hinterland, the "caipira" accent still predominates. The Talian dialect of Rio Grande do Sul, on the other hand, is a modified Venetian dialect, also not a Portuguese-Italian mixture. Ninguém ( talk) 14:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Also, it must be noted that colloquial Portuguese spoken in São Paulo city is much closer to both Standard Brazilian Portuguese and colloquial Portuguese spoken in other areas of Brazil than colloquial Portuguese spoken in São Paulo hinterland. Ninguém ( talk) 14:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Can anybody please help with finding English language citations and inserting them in the article in place of the foreign language ones? Thank you, -- Tom 23:43, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Ninguem,
I just saw your recent change in the Italian Brazilian article, I don’t agree with your numbers, I do understand your point that the vast majority of people with Italian ancestry have lost their Italian identity, however, I have to point out that the same can be said of Italian Argentineans and Italian Americans, still, all articles at Wikipedia gives the total population number with Italian ancestry, and not cultural connection. I suggest a compromise here, he have to put in the box the 25 million and make a note. As quality of sources go, the Italian government is more reliable than Miguel Angel Garcia, I checked this author, he is not let’s say a real ‘demographer’ he is more like a sociologist that used very ‘unusual’ ways of research for this paper. We can use his data on the note, but not as the official number, it would be unfair and I believe against the rules of Wikipedia. Regards, Paulista01 ( talk) 14:59, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Ninguem,
You may be correct that Brazil does not have 25 million people of Italian descent, however, we are not supposed to argue about this here, as an encyclopedia we have to do our best to use sources, good sources, to totally disqualify the Italian government is not correct, and to tell you the truth from my point of view it is a little offensive. Regarding Brazil being ‘unicultural’, I disagree. Brazil has different cultures, especially regional differences, I do not want to start an argument about this though since I believe it is irrelevant and neither I nor any other editor should use this as a basis to write articles here. I agree that the Brazilian government has usually pushed towards a ‘unicultural’ environment, were they successful? I have my doubts. I have hundreds of examples that show the contrary. It is very undemocratic for a government or anybody to tell other people what they are and what they are not. If not, we may fall into the same trap that some of our fellow editors did, I believe you know the editor I am talking about. Personal opinion and agendas are clearly against the rules of this encyclopedia. So my solution is: let’s stick to the rules, report the 25 million and make a note about other figures or add something directly after the 25 million. This way we are respecting the different points of view that we are required to represent and we are being neutral. One thing we cannot do is simply delete a figure or a number, especially a government figure. Regards, Paulista01 ( talk) 18:13, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, the Italian government has used this number more than once, you can see it even on the website of the Italian Embassy in Brasilia, I have seen this number once in the website of the Italian foreign relations ministry. Now, it always says circa 25,000,000. To me it looks like you are making a big deal out of this. I don’t believe you have an anti Italian view, but I can not understand why the strong push on this. We have very different points of view on this, it is okay we are not expected to agree on everything, I believe you are a good editor and you have a lot to contribute. I think we can resolve this easily, I also believe we both should not waste time on this issue. We have a lot of articles that we can work. Using both the sources you suggested and the sources already in the article, here is what I suggest, following the rules, this is how it should look - all based on government info, either Brazil or Italy:
c. 17,000,000 - 25,000,000 (note) of whom
c. 300,000 are Italian citizens
c. 500,000 have requested Italian citizenship
(note – Estimates for people with Italian ancestry: 17,000,000 or 10% of the Brazilian population in 1998 according to IBGE (Brazilian government), 25,000,000 according to the Italian government in 2004).
Can you give me the data from IBGE? I need it to add to the sources.
Regards, Paulista01 ( talk) 00:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
http://www.italiaoggi.com.br/migrazioni/noticias/migra_20061020a.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theuser777 ( talk • contribs) 17:14, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Richard asr ( talk) 10:33, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
What exactly are the sources that support the lead of this article?
It says:
A google search shows that this phrase isn't used in such sense, except in Wikipedia and its mirrors. English dictionaries do not list the phrase. The article also gives "ítalo-brasileiro" as the translation of "Italian Brazilian". A google search shows that "ítalo-brasileiro" is also not used in this sense, except in... Wikipedia and its mirrors. Portuguese dictionaries, while they do list "ítalo-brasileiro", do not define it as "a person born in Brazil of Italian ancestry"; they list it only as an adjective, and define it as "relating to Italy and Brazil".
So I am proposing that this article is renamed to something that can actually be supported (as, for instance, "Brazilians of Italian descent"/"descendentes de italianos"). Objections, please? Ninguém ( talk) 15:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
So there are no sources supporting the existence of a social phenomenon called "Italian Brazilians". Your analogies are very poor. It is quite obvious that there is something called "Italian Americans": a google search will reveal many uses of such phrase exactly in the sence it is used in Italian American. A google search for "Italian Brazilian" or "ítalo-brasileiro" shows the opposite: it is not used, except in Wikipedia. It is not notable, it has no real life relevance. Your speculation about Northern Italians being more related to Austria seems another invention (where is the source for that?), but is completely irrelevant anyway: they are "Italians" because they are Italian citizens; "Italian Brazilians" are nor Italians neither Italian citizens.
Where is the source for the lead? Ninguém ( talk) 18:59, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Of the sources you cite, only one ( Mão biônica funciona com sucesso em ítalo-brasileiro) uses the term in a similar way - probably because it is a translation from Italian. And it certainly isn't an article about "Italian Brazilians"; it is an article about bionics. The "Italian Brazilian" in question, anyway, seems to live in Italy, which would mean he is quite connected to Italy, if not to Italian culture. The other sources have nothing to do with "Italian Brazilians"; they use "ítalo-brasileiro" as an adjective that applies to colleges, conferences, symposions, schools, relations, etc - not as a substantive that designates a set of people, like in this article. This is the way the word is used in Brazil, completely different of its use in the United States. We shouldn't be using analogies to other Wikipedia articles (which aren't reliable sources anyway). Half of these seem to me outright inventions ("Italian Peruvian", "Italo-Venezuelans", "Italian Lebanese", "Italian Egyptians", which I very much doubt refer to any real demographic phenomenon). If there is any reliable source about the set of people described in this article that calls them "Italian Brazilian" or "ítalo-brasileiros", then I agree it should stay as it is. But it is quite unlikely. Ninguém ( talk) 20:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
If it only refers to ancestry, what is the problem with "Brazilians of Italian descent"?
There are still no sources for the lead statement. Provide one, the discussion ends. Ninguém ( talk) 02:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
And, of course, it is easy to prove that it is not "just ancestry". Here is what Italian American says:
So, at least for Wikipedia, Italian Americans are an ethnic group - not "just an ancestry". If this article talks about something that is "just ancestry", why does it strive to clonate an article about an ethnic group? Ninguém ( talk) 15:56, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I strongly oppose I am not going to waste my time with this discussion again, the editor Ninguem is constantly trying to sabotage this article.. The term is widely used, and he knows it, he is playing games again. Ciao. Paulista01 ( talk) 14:40, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
The point is not to find sources that have the phrase "Italian Brazilian", but sources that say, or strongly imply, this:
Do any of the above say something similar? Ninguém ( talk) 15:47, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Let's see the first of the sources cited above:
Revisioning Italy: national identity and global culture By Beverly Allen, Mary J. Russo
It uses the expression "Italian Brazilian" three times. The first (page 214) and the third (page 229) fall into pages that are not actually accessible to the reader; very short, and perhaps uncontextual cites are provided. Here is the first:
It mentions an "Italian-Brazilian" household; for what I can grasp from the rest of the book, this would be the household in which Zelia Gattai lived when a child, with her parents, both of them children of Italian immigrants. I don't think this makes the case that all Brazilians of Italian descent constitute a group called "Italian Brazilians".
The third one goes like this:
So this sentence directly classifies an eight-year-old grandaughter of Italian immigrants, living within what this book calls an "Italian community", an "Italian-Brazilian". Which, while isn't a clear statement that all Brazilians of Italian descent are "Italian Brazilian", could be taken as some indication that the author reasons within this conceptual frame. But, what if Zelia Gattai was fifth, not third generation? Or if she descended from Italian immigrants on one side, but not on the other? Would she be "Italian Brazilian" in the opinion of this author? The answer is, we don't know, and this book does not allow us to determine it. How is it going to be used as a source to support the idea expressed in the lead of this article?
On the other hand, the author is directly contradicted by the "subject" of her study, who claims "we" (she and her sister) "felt ourselves to be wholly Brazilian". Which seems to imply that at least some (unmixed third generation, i.e., very close to original immigrants) Brazilians of Italian descent do not consider themselves "Italian Brazilians". Who is right here?
The second, and only that can be actually read in its context (page 227), is the following:
So "Italian-Brazilian" is used here in relation to a "community", not in relation to individual people. That such "community" - as long as we can talk of a Gemeinschaft in a bourgeoning capitalist society - was "Italian-Brazilian" is beyond doubt, as it was composed of Italian citizens living in Brazil, Italian-born Brazilian citizens, and children born to the former categories. That the individuals in such community were "Italian Brazilians" is a different issue, that the text does not make clear. What it makes clear is that this is not the "identity" chosen by Zelia and Vera Gattai (and so, again, that not all Brazilians of Italian descent consider themselves "Italian-Brazilian").
The other two sources you mention barely deserve an appreciation. The Rough guide to Brazil uses the phrase "Italian-Brazilian" only once, to tell us that an expensive restaurant in Rio de Janeiro, Marius Crustáceos, serves "Italian-Brazilian" cuisine (The menu is varied, though "Italian-Brazilian" styles dominate). Nothing about "Italian Brazilians" as a collective name for all Brazilians of Italian ancestry.
The Cambridge History of Latin American Literature: Brazilian literature ... By Roberto González Echevarría, Enrique Pupo-Walker also uses the phrase "Italian-Brazilian" only once, to describe a person:
So here we have one individual being called "Italian-Brazilian". But there is absolutely no attempt to define this category; it sounds like a nonce-word, something shorter to say than "Italian-born Brazilian industrialist Franco Zampari" or "industrialist Franco Zampari, an Italian immigrant in Brazil". Besides the obvious fact that Zampari himself was an immigrant, born in Italy, and as such an Italian citizen at least until naturalisation - not a Brazilian-born Brazilian citizen of distant, or non-exclusive, Italian descent - I don't see how this can be in any way construed as a statement that "An Italian Brazilian is a person born in Brazil of Italian ancestry". Ninguém ( talk) 17:36, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Well, then source the sentence with this citation. Ninguém ( talk) 20:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
This article gives most of its focus to immigration around 1900 because thats when most of the immigration happened. However, tens of thousands of italians immigrated to Brazil after WWII in programs that the Italian government agreed to to ease tensions after the war. (Im getting my info from Italians in Brazil: The Post World War II Experience by Gloria La Cavaz). Doesn't this deserve mentioning? NealJMD ( talk) 23:25, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
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In Germany many Italian Ice and Pizza restaurants had big problems to find workers on weekend. The Italian Director can look for Employment Service working in a restaurant with a EU Passport, like Brazilians with a second passport from the Republic Italy. The orders to clean the restaurant will be given in Italy- The missing German language can be learned Job.