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Under culture there is no reference to Israeli cuisine but instead a reference to Jewish cuisine. Jewish cuisine does not belong here as it is different from Israeli cuisine.
I wonder why an academic source like the ecology research center of Ben Gurion University of the Negev is a "less pertinent source" for information on makhtashim. Deleting a reference because someone doesn't like the formatting seems a little odd to me.-- Gilabrand 09:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
"I have told you on several occasions that you were doing good work and that I appreciated your dedication to the article, but these were always acknowledged by you reverting any information I introduced to the article without the slightest care why it was put there."
"...and you have been consistently inconsiderate of others, using a haughty tone that has scared away many."
If this article is any good, it's because of the "interesting facts" I have added to it.
You will continue to delete, but I will continue to add. Maybe that's the difference between us.
Hi there,
I am wondering why the Al-Aqsa Mosque was omitted as one of the buildings of religious significance in Jerusalem under the Religion heading?
Thanks very much
-- Columbe 04:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
No reason to????? So the fact that it's the most important site in Jerusalem for Muslims is no reason to include it in the list??!!!
Anyway, I see it's been changed... that's great...
60.234.244.140 08:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Since there has recently been a campaign to qualify the idea that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and I see there were a few changes to the infobox to reflect this, let me say this:
Yes, I understand many may come to this article (or the Jerusalem article) shocked, saying wait, what? I thought Tel Aviv was the capital of Israel. An explanatory note on Jerusalem – and perhaps even here – might be okay, but let's stick to the facts. Anyone who arrives here thinking Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel is not "right" or "kind of right" or "right if you think about it this way". No, he or she is wrong. UN Resolution 478, which was (erroneously) quoted as the source of the idea that Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel, does not say Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. It condemns one of Israel's basic laws (known as the Jerusalem Law) in strong terms, but it does not in any way, shape, or form say Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. So, if you want to put an explanatory note that says many (or most?) countries do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, that certainly is on the table. However, if you want to go farther and say Tel Aviv is the capital, that's not correct; Israel can choose its capital and it has chosen Jerusalem. -- tariqabjotu 05:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Jerusalem is not the capital city!!! aghh! whats wrong with you. its a disputed region. the creation of Palestine will contain Jerusalem as its capital, as it rightfully belongs, according to the internationally renowned borders, created in 1947.cause The era of colonisation is over, and if done today is considered illegal under international law, as its simply 'steeling land'. Its a disgrace Israelis can even write it down, after all the suffering it has caused. 40 years of illegal occupation! and illegal settlement building! why dont you write about that! israeli oppression of innocent, and mass punishments! everything one of those points, make Israel a defiant nation, that has no respect for law. How can they even sit amoungst other nations, which that attitude. They hate the laws that go aaginst them, but love the ones that are for them. Cherry-picking!! agh very annoying (Anna) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.179.254 ( talk)
Hello guys,
First, I had to realise I was partially wrong about UN Resolution 478. I just misread the sentence, and tought that the resolution was taken under chapt. 7 =_= Sorry for that.
Anyway I think that the "controversy" about Israeli capital deserves a footnote. Even if the "official" international right do not recognize the nullity of Jerusalem Law, the fact that 90% of the world countries have their ambassy in Tel-Aviv and not not recognize Jerusalem as the capital is important enough to consider the resolution as "soft law" or "custom law" considering however the "persistant objector view" of Israel.
Rember that one of the main role of a capital is to host ambassies. If 95% (exluding Bolivia and Paraguay and including US whose president do not ratify the ambassy move) of the world's country consider you'r capital chose as "irrelevant", it's certainely a problem, this case is nearly unique.
Let's keep Jerusalem as capital with the footnote previously added. I think it's fair and it does not seem to be considered a problem among others editors. ;) Mrpouetpouet ( talk) 19:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Whether Jerusalem is the capital of Israel is a sensitive question and I think that we should be more careful. Citing it as the Israeli capital without clearer explanation is clearly POV. A footnote is not enough.
Wikipedia should not be making judgments on something than the BBC, the United Nations, the European Union, the British, Canadian, New Zealand, and Australian Foreign Offices (among others) have felt unable to. Even the US Government, which accepts it as the capital, clearly says that the status of Jerusalem is disputed. The references to the Jerusalem Law are interesting, but only in that they show the Israeli view of the position of Jerusalem, which is still undoubtedly disputed territory. I would to change the sentence to:
“ Jerusalem is the nation's seat of government, largest city[1] and capital city (internationally disputed).” [1]
I know my reference isn’t great, but it seemed to be the one which contained the most accessible information. There is information on the Israeli government site about the disputed status but the relevant but is halfway down a long page.
I don’t want to change things without discussion so I will wait for comment. Shambles2007 ( talk)shambles 26 November 2007 —Preceding comment was added at 12:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
The main role of a capital is to host the nation's center of government, hosting embassies is secondary. The UN does not have the right to determine where the capital of a soveriegn nation is. Also, take into consideration that the other nations did not wish to place their embassies in the center of a religiously motivated dispute that has in the past erupted into combat. That's a good enough excuse to not put the embassy in the capitol, but not a good one for telling Isreal where its capital is. Jerusalem should maintain it's position as capital. Tyrnell ( talk) 17:09, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I think that the last paragraph of the introduction section should be modified so that it doesn't compare Israel with its neighbours in terms of democracy, corruption, development etc. For instance, instead of saying "Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel is a liberal democracy[10][11] and a developed country." I suggest it should be modified to just "Israel is a liberal democracy and a developed country". The comparison with its neighbours doesn't add any real value to the introduction and makes it less objective in tone. Israel is better than many other countries when it comes to democracy and human development indices. Highlighting these differences with just its neighbours is hence unfair and unnecessary. Truetyper ( talk) 22:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
The argument about the "developped country" is wrong. Quatar or Dubaï are developped too (look at GDP per capital PPP). You can compare Israel with other country in his region but the sentence "Unlike most countries in the Middle East" is typically useless and agressive.
Mrpouetpouet ( talk) 23:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
By developed country (or part of State as Qatar it dosen't change anything) most of people understand High income country, if we want to give it another signification here it must be precised for the reader.
I don't say that comparing "Israel to other countries in the Middle East is "useless" and "aggressive"". =_= I said : "the sentence "Unlike most countries in the Middle East" is typically useless and agressive." That's very different. You can compare Israel with other countries no problem but saying that this way is, assuming good faith, exposing a point of view which is in opposition with the well-known NPOV rule. We have to act very carefully when making a judgement on an article as this one and this sentence expresses "prima facie" a point of view even if it's perhaps not the goal of the editor.
I really cannot understand the problem with this version ??? : "Israel is a liberal democracy and a developed country. In the Middle-East, Israel is the least corrupt, and the most progressive in terms of freedom of the press, economic competition, and human development."
If any editor have a major problem with this formulation please remove but don't forget to explain your arguments here and to assume good faith.
Then, for the soccer => football. It's a convention that soccer is called football as it is the name used by most of humans on earth and I suppose also in Israel, expected when it must be differentiated from other football for exemple American football. Same for rugby, when you speak about only Rugby, the readers assume you speak of Rugby union. Look at the name of the 2007 world cup : 2007 Rugby World Cup => It's Rugby union =_= There is a little problem with football because of the american version, which is also very popular. However the reader can easily understand which one you'r talking about considering the article. The sport played in Israel is football (soccer) not american football, isn't it ?? So we have to speak about football.
Mrpouetpouet ( talk) 15:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
like an administrator or someone else who doesn't have a political or regional bias
How the hell is this an FA article?did ya buy the administrators or what?this article is sad!it to biased in most of the senteced i read!its like propaganda EdwinCasadoBaez ( talk) 10:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
hes got a point thoug? How DID this article get FA status, I dont mean to question the obviously perfect judiciary, but It does seem a bit iffy for one of the most disputed articles I have seen personally on wikipedia. 172.213.64.230 ( talk) 04:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Again, this sentence has been debated ad nauseum:
If you're going to denounce the sentence (and particularly the word "most") as "POV", "argumentative", and "vituperative", you better be prepared to back that up – and well. I don't think any of the people changing the sentence are prepared to do that. Even if they are, I highly doubt those efforts would be successful. Look: Arab countries are in a worse condition than Israel on several metrics. Get over it; that's a fact of life (for now, at least). It's not "POV" to say that. -- tariqabjotu 20:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Unlike many countries in the Middle East, Israel is a progressive liberal democracy (references:[10][11]) and is considered a developed country. (reference:[12]) As a liberal democracy, surrounded by less democratic nations, Israel is constantly seeking to eliminate corruption from its branches of government and protect freedom of the press, human rights and an economic freemarket. (references 13, 14, 15 and 16).
" Again, this sentence has been debated ad nauseum:
You answered yourself do you think it's normal to have so many discussion about that I really don't understand why you absolutely want to keep this sentence exactly in the sam terms: "Israel is a liberal democracy and a developed country. In the Middle-East, Israel is the least corrupt, and the most progressive in terms of freedom of the press, economic competition, and human development.""
Consensus is one of wikipedia's pillar if you cannot agree to a so little change, guy type lists of GDP which (nearly) don't suffer any controvery. The edit policy on wikipedia is "to asumme other editors good faith". We are following a perfect good faith in saying that part of the sentence is totally unacceptable. The new sentence just correct that problem can you find something wrong in "Israel is a liberal democracy and a developed country. In the Middle-East, Israel is the least corrupt, and the most progressive in terms of freedom of the press, economic competition, and human development." ?????????? It isn't dilute the truth, is it ???
"Look: Arab countries are in a worse condition than Israel on several metrics. Get over it; that's a fact of life (for now, at least)" It's not the fact the problem it's the way of saying these facts.
For exemple I can add that Israel is around the end of the developed country list in terms of freedom of the press, economic competition, and human development. It will certainely be a fact and a NPOV one (in your vision) and I can argue that it's useful to compare Israel with other developed country =_= It will just be agressive and useless as the present text is.
Guy, let stop this stupid editwar now. Such a little edit doesn't deserve that really. Thanks for understanding. Just look at above if we reach a consensus for Jerusalem as capital cannot we find one with this prob ???
Mrpouetpouet ( talk) 21:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I am an outsider here. I just stopped by to get some information. I realize that this article is under constant attack, and so this makes it difficult to maintain it. However, I notice that there are several grammatical and formatting problems that have arisen in the article.
I also have to disagree with Mrpouetpouet. However, first, Mrpouetpouet, it is difficult to read and understand most of your comments. It might be helpful to have a friend that knows English better help you with your posts to English Wikipedia. Otherwise, your arguments are less compelling because they are hard to follow, mainly because of linguistic difficulties.
Although there are certainly problems with Israel as a society, these pale in comparison with those of most Arab countries. Israel is not a perfect democracy, but it is certainly more democratic than most Arab countries. If you look at this report from Reporters Without Borders, the US and Israel are graded as having much more freedom of the press than any Arab country, at least within their own borders. Also, since the US and Israel are taken to task for their behavior outside their own territories, this organization is not "controlled by thieving filthy Jews" or "right wing fascists" or some other nonsense. On almost any other measure, including Income inequality metrics, Israel is far superior to Arab countries. Of course, one can include areas outside Israeli control like the Gaza Strip to paint a different picture, but this is basically unfair.
Although there are terrible problems associated with Israel, it does not really serve any useful purpose to try to bias the article and present Israel as completely evil and horrendous in all aspects. Although I appreciate the anger that this produces among Arabs and their supporters, it does not help the reader to understand Israel. Should Wikipedia be turned into a political anti-semitic tract? -- Filll ( talk) 15:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
"Israel is around the end of the developed country list in terms of freedom of the press, economic competition, and human development"
Can you substantiate that statement?
Incidentally the Palestinian Authority scores higher then Egypt, Algeria, Syria, Morocco and the Yemen in tems of HDI (see List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index or Arab-Israeli conflict facts, figures, and statistics)
Telaviv1 ( talk) 15:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
It's not that the facts presented are false, it's that they are presented in a POV & polemical fashion. I would say this falls under WP:PEACOCK. Anyway this section of the intro sticks out like a sore thumb & should be changed. Maybe nominating the article for a check of it's neutrality would be the way to go. Fennessy ( talk) 17:54, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I have no problem delaring Isreal the beacon to the Mid East but The phrase is worded wrong to sound like half of an insult "Iran sucks UNLIKE Israel which is..." The contents shouldn't be changed but the wording I cannot deny that what it says is true however the word unlike just sounds POV by nature.-- Matterfoot ( talk) 23:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Okedem, I have never seen a passage on a country article before that is phrased to be deliberately confrontational & provokative as this one is.
And Tariqabjotu, judging by your previous posts here you seem to be far too emotionally involved in this issue to be constructive or balanced regarding it. Going out of your way to include snide remarks about other countries is hardly "innocuous". <
Fennessy/
talk>
00:09, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
"you better be prepared to back that up – and well(emphasis added)."
"Get over it"
That isn't the way an objective person discusses an issue like this. My observation is completley vaild.
If the section in question is being complained about ad nauseum then the problem is obvious —the tone for that paragraph is wrong & all you accomplish by trying to keep it that way is discrediting the article. You really have to ask yourself why anyone would insist on it being that way when a minor modification would keep all the information presented intact & also not seem like it's intentionally trying to tick people off.
Sadly even some admins keep biases, especially when it comes to nationality/ethnic/religious issues like this one. <
Fennessy/
talk>
14:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
The term is POV. "Unlike other Middle Eastern countries" is completely irrelevant to the introduction of an article about Israel; the statement can be discussed further down the article. The word is a peacock and it sticks out blatantly. It immediately tries to draw one in to the Arab-Israeli conflict, but of course, in a context that would favor Israel (democratic standards). As someone above said, it would be inappropriate to say "Unlike other Middle Eastern countries, Israel has not signed the NPT (despite possessing WMDs), continues to sanction an illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, and has made East Jerusalem a part of their capital. The illegal occupation and the annexation of East Jerusalem are not internationally recognized whatsoever." Would such a statement be appropriate for this introduction? Absolutely not. Neither is the current statement. It can be stated that Israel is a liberal democracy without bringing the Arab states into the discussion. Not only is it irrelevant, it's POV. How can such a statement garner so much attention if it weren't POV? It immediately caught my eye, and clearly I'm not the only one! I'm not even Arab!
BTW, simply saying Israel's HDI is "high" is very misleading. It is technically ranked as high, but its position is only slightly higher than states like Brunei, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, etc... That hardly would be considered high by Western standards; Israel is high by global standards or Middle Eastern standards only, but certainly not Western as many people on this page are trying to suggest. Kuwait just gave women the right to vote a few years ago and in the UAE South Asians are unofficially enslaved. That's not "high" by Western standards, but their HDI's are still relatively close to Israel's. SAUDI ARABIA'S HDI is ranked as "High," and any moron that has even slight education on the Middle East is aware that Saudi Arabia is the most oppressive regime in the entire region. - 68.43.58.42 ( talk) 20:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
"Unlike other Middle Eastern countries, Israel has not signed the NPT (despite possessing WMDs), continues to sanction an illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, and has made East Jerusalem a part of their capital. The illegal occupation and the annexation of East Jerusalem are not internationally recognized whatsoever."
Okedem, if you've read what was said about Israel's HDI relative to its neighbors in this talk thread, you would understand where my statement was coming from. Germany's HDI is fairly low compared to Western Europe, Northern Europe and the United States/Canada. Certainly Israel's HDI is classified as "high," but so is Saudi Arabia's. Big deal. In my very last sentence I already mocked the usage of HDI as a method to determine how progressive Israeli politics are. Please read what I write before you reply.
My primary criticism came over the usage of "Unlike other Middle Eastern countries.." within the lead. It's a POV statement that attempts to subtly introduce the Arab-Israeli conflict within a context that would favor Israel (Democratic Standards). Not only is "Unlike other Middle Eastern countries" irrelevant to an introduction on the State of Israel, but it is also a blatant POV statement. Should we include discussion about the internationally unrecognized military occupation of East Jerusalem and the Palestinian territories in the lead as well? Certainly, "unlike most Arab states," Israel does sponsor what is essentially a colonization project on internationally recognized Palestinian territory. Of course, this would never be appropriate information for a lead! The article isn't even about Israel's geopolitics! It's about Israel as a state and a collectivity! The fact that someone would defend the statement "Unlike.." in a lead paragraph when it is clearly unnecessary is incredible.
This unnecessary shot should be removed. I think it has already been thoroughly criticized, not just by me, but by countless individuals (Arab or otherwise), as this talk page clearly proves.. It's unencyclopedic, unnecessary, and shows a favorable point of view towards Israel. If we're going to include a list of "compare and contrast" between Israel and "most other Middle Eastern nations," then by all means, let's do it. But let's not place it in the lead, where it is clearly unnecessary, and let's not try to reduce all geopolitics within the region to "Well, Israel has a more democratic government, therefore their foreign policy is acceptable." That is what this lead is insinuating, and it's inappropriate for an encyclopedia. This is not Israelisperfectpedia. An encyclopedia is supposed to inform; it is not supposed to be a persuasive essay that gives us a favorable view of Israel relative to its neighbors in the opening paragraphs. Can anyone provide a reason WHY this comment deserves to be included? If not, then I think we should start removing it. These threads are becoming redundant. - 68.43.58.42 ( talk) 22:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Okedem, have you even read this thread?
"Israel is around the end of the developed country list in terms of freedom of the press, economic competition, and human development"
Can you substantiate that statement?
Incidentally the Palestinian Authority scores higher then Egypt, Algeria, Syria, Morocco and the Yemen in tems of HDI (see List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index or Arab-Israeli conflict facts, figures, and statistics) - Telaviv1
I mentioned HDI in response to comments above. I don't have an issue with listing Israel's HDI as "high" on the sidebar, since that would be its official classification. I think I've already made attempts to drop it twice, but apparently you haven't realize it.
I suppose the inclusion of East Jerusalem wouldn't be a good example, but certainly there are better ones. Israel is the only state in the region that sanctions an illegal occupation. Israel has been at war more than any other state in the region. Israel has violated more UN resolutions than any state in the region. Should we include all of these contrasts in the lead as well? Do those fit the "metrics" of the situation? I thought the point was rather clear, but apparently we've reduced this argument to a game of "who can play more stupid." So again, can anyone provide a reason why the contrast is necessary in a lead paragraph on Israel? I haven't received any good answers.
The inclusion of a contrast between Israel's democracy and other regional states is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT to a lead paragraph, so I don't understand how you are trying to justify this. It's perfectly fine to say Israel is a liberal democracy in the lead, but the "Unlike most other Middle Eastern countries" is entirely irrelevant to a lead. The article isn't about Israel's foreign policy relations! The 3rd paragraph of the lead is introducing geopolitics of the Middle East in a context that would favor Israel, and the "unlike.." sticks out to any casual reader immediately. Why are we introducing the Arabs into an article that isn't even about them? In the lead, no less? Fair enough, how about we add:
Unlike other Middle Eastern countries, Israel continues to illegally occupy foreign territory, has violated over 100 UN Resolutions, and has been at war more than any other nation in the region.
Of course, you would never go for that type of contrast in a lead (nor would I). But you would go for this one? The fact is, there shouldn't be any compare/contrast between Israel and the Arabs in a lead paragraph on ISRAEL. This article isn't the Arab-Israeli conflict article. Can you give a reason why we SHOULD keep it? I haven't heard that one yet, and you seem as though you don't have a good one. There are appropriate ways to introduce a state's form of government that are more appropriate. Turkey's lead introduces their government like this:
Turkey, classified as a developing country, is a democratic, secular, unitary, constitutional republic whose political system was established in 1923 under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, following the fall of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of World War I. Since then, Turkey has become increasingly integrated with the West while continuing to foster relations with the Eastern world.
I really don't understand why you insist that the contrast be included.- 68.43.58.42 ( talk) 23:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
I really am getting tired of discussing the HDI with you. I intended for that to be a mere side note, but you haven't dropped it. This thread isn't even about Israel's HDI. As for your response on the statement, I found it to be a rather weak argument.
...it is important for the reader's understanding - Israel's situation is very different than that of a West European democracy. One of the aspect of this - the intense hatred of Israel common in some Arab/Muslim nations which have never had any conflict with Israel. This hatred if very often fueled by the government itself, usually to distract the public from the poor economic situation, or the fact they live under an extremely oppressive regime. Every dictator knows that when you give the public an enemy (real or imaginary), they unite against it - and not against the dictator (i.e - Iran, which never warred with Israel, and isn't even close to it). That said, I've never been a fan of that particular wording, and wouldn't object to a better one, still keeping the comparison. -okedem
Your defense for the "Unlike.." essentially amounts to original research and doesn't even deserve a response in the first place. The example you provided (Iran) is a very weak example for your case. Most Iranians are pro-American, pro-Western, largely ambivalent towards the Israeli-Palestinian issue, and consider their economy to the most important issue [2]. Further, Iran's government is not dictatorial in its character [3]. Iran certainly does have a clerical clique that holds a disproportionately large amount of power within Iran's political structure, but the system is not a dictatorship. Iranians have universal suffrage and, from 1997 to 2005, Iran was appearing to be on a path towards reconciliation with the United States. Certainly Ahmadinejad has hampered that, but Ahmadinejad's overreaching foreign policy and failure to encourage urban development has caused him to lose virtually all voter support.
Even if we ignore your poor example, your statement is still original research that cannot be applied universally (or to any Wikipedia article in the first place). Not all citizenry "unite with the dictator." You cannot prove this. I already discredited the only example you provided! This is a very weak defense for a statement that has already garnered so much criticism.
Even if your statement were universally true, it is wholly unnecessary to discuss Arab-Israeli relations in a lead paragraph on the State of Israel. It is simply irrelevant to Israel as its own entity. Would you open an article on Turkey or Greece with the Greek/Turkish Cypriot dispute? I think I have made my case rather clear, and you have simply ignored it. I already quoted about how the Turkey article introduces Turkey's economy and political structure without discussing current disputes or Turkey's relations with the Middle East in a political context (which would, of course, be inapplicable to the subject of Turkey as a state and an exclusive entity); this current sentence is introducing the greater geopolitical picture of the Middle East in an article that is exclusively about Israel. There is an appropriate place for these contrasts between Israel and its neighbors (e.g. Arab-Israeli conflict), but an introduction on Israel is certainly an inappropriate place. You are correct that I've revived a thread almost a month old, but if I scroll just a tiny bit down it becomes quite obvious that I'm not the only person that has complained about this sentence. It appears this sentence has attracted attention for months and by countless individuals. Now are you going to give me a straight response? I answered your claim directly and I think I won. - 68.43.58.42 ( talk) 19:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
So basically... Israel is being used a scapegoat to distract attention away from the government. Yet, these governments have failed in several cases (Iran being a notable example). That's great. The fact of the matter is, you have shifted the discussion from Israel to the Arab States and Iran and that's entirely irrelevant to an article on Israel (at least for a lead paragraph). Simply because governments fuel anti-Israeli sentiment does not mean it is effective, nor does it mean it is measurable in anyway. Moreover, it has no bearing to this current article! It's entirely off-topic! Towards the end of your post, you said you will ignore the example of Turkey and Greece because that's only one example of a political clash that goes unmentioned in a lead... Fair enough. There are 191 states in the world. Find 10 examples of nations that have similar leads and I'll concede that maybe your right. My assumption would be that the most you would find are nations that currently have border/land disputes (e.g. Argentina's land claim over the Falkland Islands, Taiwain, Serbia, Kosovo, etc). I highly doubt you will find a sentence like "Unlike other Southeast Asian nations, Thailand has emerged as a beacon of democracy." Such a statement adds nothing to the article and, just like in this case, sounds completely out of context. At this point, you have reduced this into a fight over the Arabs, and the article isn't even about them (Perhaps that can be seen as a testament to why this sentence is so poorly written and out of place - because it has nothing to do with Israel, even though it is placed in the lead!). - 68.43.58.42 ( talk) 00:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
This article states that "unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel is a developed country." That statement implies that the rest of the Middle East is not developed. That is utter nonsense and usually only uttered by Zionists in their effort to demonize Arabs.
Perhaps you should throw this in: Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel has an official policy, called the Samson Option, whereby they have already decided they will launch all of their nuclear weapons at all of their Middle East neighbors (perhaps even Moscow as well) should they ever be in imminent danger of losing a war. Israel poses an infinitely more probable threat of global nuclear holocaust than it's Middle East neighbors. 75.162.248.252 ( talk) 03:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
It is certainly much more different to say "Israel has the highest human development index in the region" versus "Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel has high human development. The first sentence is a fact; the second sentence carries a tone of condescension, whether or not it was the author's intention."
Seems like there's more than just a bit of POV in this article... The introduction notwithstanding, one would think that an article on perhaps the most controversial nation on earth would have a bit more talk about the controversies. What IS here is written in an incredibly passive voice, and there seems to be as little mention as possible of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, odd considering the fact that said conflict should be a mainstay of the article if we are to maintain a global perspective on Israel itself. I'm not about to start any edit wars, but if we are to maintain any level of neutrality, there are glaring omissions to be corrected and entire sections to be rewritten. I see that accusations of anti-semitism are being thrown around anyway (blatant violation of the "Assume Good Faith", but I'm no sentinel of the WP rules,) this is to be expected on an article such as this, but it's really quite ridiculous... Kirottu82 ( talk) 07:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
it just strikes me as odd how the "economy" and "education" section of this article are entirely ranking statements, that is saying how well Israel compares to other nations, how innovative they are, how wonderfully they are developing etc. it seems very un-professional to turn these fact-based sections into a series of praise statements. comparable sections in other country articles blandly state: "This country 's economy is based on X, they do Y amount of trade mostly with these nations..." Whereas this article, if you'll read it closely, says things like: "Israel, despite its tremendous obstacles, has leaped to forefront of X and is doing the world's most innovative Y, etc. This doesn't read like an encyclopedia entry, it reads like a travel-book or a country advertisement. We need to tone down the language in these sections and remember that they are supposed to provide a neutral summary of the information, not a cheering section.
(standard disclaimer about being neither Arab nor Jewish, nor invested in the conflict in any way) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.20.252.127 ( talk) 19:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
like usual the israeli ***** here havent made this article of NPOV. it is full with hatred towards its arabs neighbours, and betrays them as incompetent, babaric and undecuated. "unlike other countries in the middle east" is a absolute irrelvant fact, would there be any objection if someone wrote "israel is the only country in the middle east that has a record number of war crimes against its name because of its treatment of the palestininans or that israel is the only country that has broken international law when it builds its settlements and doesnt give the palestinians rights they deserve as being under occupation , because that point is as relevant as that. secondly, there should be a small paragraph dedicated to the disputed areas, and its illegal settlement program that has been condenmed internationally. further more there should be mention of how israel is deemed by the international community to be ethinically cleansing israel to rid the muslims from israel (alliyah) to increase jewish population. thirdly under the military section, there should be mention that israel has broken US laws when it uses/used the weaponry given to it by the US on lebabon, and every single time it uses it on palestinian civilians. this is because, correct me if im wrong, the US only gives aid to israel for defence, and the lebabon war was and is not considered self-defence, on the contray it was considered illegal under international law. There should also be a section in which israel is shown to have repeatdly killed innocent bystanders under false intel, which have also been deemed illgeal under international law as ware crimes. okedom, and the other **** here, seem to put in irrelavent information that favours israels image, but fail to tell the entire story in the fear it might damage israels image. either make this a NPOV article or have passages talking about the controversial topics, which israel always seems to be tangled in. this article is not to promote israels image, but to tell the truth, so take the negatives with the positives because there there same side of a coin. and for the sake of repeatition, exclude the non-NPOV or allow controversial issues to be dicussed. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 11:20, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
i have not attacked any one with "personal attacks" but okedom and newtman, and yourself now have. my stance on israel, and my political believes towards israel has nothing to do with being objectional, just like i would like to hope your personal attachment to israel does not also. name calling me "anti-israel" is unacceptable, and is a "personal attack". now please stop it and talk about the points i have brought up, and do not change the headings as i do not want my ip to appear as a heading 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
em wrong again, thank your propagandists. turkey is in the middle east, and is also considered a developed country and a democracy. jordon is also a democracy. the use of words "unlike" protray israels neighbours in a negative light, which is of no relevance to this. and if someone does say it is of importance, then kindly add a section talking about israels war crime. the fact that someone has added this point about democracy is like i said before only to sway israels image into a good light. this clearly illustrates this articles bias, and falsehood. EDIT: and also, iraq and afganistan are also a democracy now that the old regimes have gone, and free and fair elections have been held, and deemed democratic by the international community. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 11:44, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
unlike other countries in the middle east, israel is a ""liberal democracy""? this implies and gives the impression to any sane person that israel is the only democracy, it is condesending, patronising and shows that israel ""liberal"" democracy is superior to the democracies of iraq, afganistan, jorn turkey. i have looked at other country wiki's and no ridiculous sentence as the one used here is used there. if you take the sentence in the context that it is given, it very much plants an impression of israeli superiority. the fact about being a liberal democracy compared to a conservative democracy is not relevant. in fact, israels democracy is not even liberal in the traditional sense, as it uses both jewish law along with other democratic governance. and i know it doesnt mean israel is the only democracy and developed countries (along with the only progressive), put in the context, it certainly implies that. getting rid of the word "Unlike" would not change the paragraph, so my suggestion is that we not use it, because the use of the "Unlike" gives that """impression"" 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
this is also not relevant, as it gives an image to the reader that other countries in the region are not progressive. although it may be true it is the MOST , it has no relevance, or has as much relevance as israels other controverial issues that nobody has discussed here, (or said it belongs in a separate article). the fact that saudia arbia are only a few palces down in the economic competition list given on the site, followed by the UAE flaws the reasoning to include this in the article. after looking at other wiki's of the countries on the list, none mention that they are the "most" progressive the way this article does. in my opinion it is only to show israel as superior then other coutries. coming to freedom of press, again who ever wrote this really does make a mess of it., the writer has gome off on tangents for the sake of protarying israel as "progressive" the fact that countries like joron and egpyt with iraq and afganistan are also making alot of progress compared to there previous regimes is undermined by this sentence.
EDIT:and the fact that in human development, countries like kuwait ( which are only 10 spots back ), also helps support the argument this section is irrelvant, and untrue. on other wiki's about countries on that list, no mention is given to there feat. the relevance of it can be judged by comparing it to more serious and controversial issues such as the "war crime" claims and "breaking of international law". puutting that aside, i find it also makes the articles not of NPOV, as it only gives "thrills"
to israeli (who seem to be the people editing the article)
86.163.1.210 ( talk) 11:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
again tariq, youve lacked the ability to actually listen to what i have said, i said it gives the false "impression" that israel is the more superior country in the middle east, and that no other country is near them, when according to the soucres given, that is jus simply not the case. Edit: the word "unlike" is not approapriate and should be rightfully discarded for the reason i have given (gives the impression israel is superior and that no other country is economically progressive or democratic) 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
no dicussion to how israel does not allow the palestinians that used to live on, what is now israel, the right of reuten but is given to jews from all around th world. an issue that has been of concern to the international community. i have good sources that show this. another point which is controversial but relevant, is how other countries has expressed there discontent towards to israel for explouuting there jewish communites, and luring them with money incentives. it has been deemed ethically immoral by scholars, who argue that people of jewish background are helped, and not others, which is prejudicial. noam chomsky is one. (ironically he is a jew also, who has been smeared "a self-hating jew" by other jews and israelis 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
"anonymous ip troll", wow arent we faul? is that allowed, or have the rules changed for you all of a sudden. if i registered would that make me less anonymous? now stop it, israel did not enjoy support from the world for its war, http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A99D0477-B0EC-449C-82BE-26C15C2D2068.htm there actions were considered illegal and an absolute misjudgement/over reaction, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6981557.stm http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL12851214 http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3275042,00.html
thats not my opinion, its russias frances, intertional organisations etc etc jus look it up your first comment doesnt prove anything, there are still errors in this article, (i probably predict a zionist passed it), but either way that is no arguement to use counter my point. and sorry your the one ranting, ive stuck to the point, and your tryin to smear what i am sayin. and as for the "most developed" part, if you had read it properly, i said it gave the impression that all other countries in the region are some how inferior, which is incorrect as there are countries right behind it. and as for the only democracy, like i said, turkey, jordon, iraq, and afghanistan are democracies, so you should delete the fact that israel is the only democracy in the middle-east 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 21:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thats no excuse to call me a troll, and i did not know you were a editor, which further strengthens my case that this article was only featured because editors like yourself, due to personal attachment want to pass on inaccurate information. i strongly suggest you retract your comment, because it is unacceptable. aand BTW i have given sources to back my "pov" so there goes your theory 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 21:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
i said either way though, which throws your argument out the window,,,are you going to contiune agruing with me baselessly. and do not throw personal attacks on me, i do not have a chip on my shoulder, and it is inapproperiate to say that here. you have not spoken once about the issues but have continually tried to smear me, firstly by callin me a troll, now saying im big-headed, please do not reply to me if you are goin to be immature thank you 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 21:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
okedom, you said and i quote "Since no one claims Israel is the "only developed/democratic country in the middle east", I'll ignore that whole section", i agree no one claims that, but was not what i was talking about. if you read the article it said and i quote "Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel is a liberal democracy[10][11] and a developed country.[12] In the region, Israel is the most progressive in terms of freedom of the press,[13] economic competition,[14] and human development" this is inaccurate as it suggests most countries are not ecomic competitors, (which according to your sources is not correct, and several arab countries are ranked little below israel). and as for the comment about most progressive in terms of human development, that is also an inaccuracy, as the soucre gives a list of countries and there human devleopement status, not how progreesive there human devleopment has been. further more, if you decide the source for that claim is credible, then from the same source you will be able to identify that israels neighbours (UAE KSA) are not that far of the list. over all your agrument is very light wieght,,please discuss thank you 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 21:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
and okedom, please do not cherry pick the claims that i have made about this article, you said and i quote "This is why Israel enjoyed wide international support for the war." now i have supplied you with links, and can do so with more if you require., please answer all my points, as they are valid,m and if they are not, tell me why. i do not appreciate being spoken to in a patronising tone also, you are creating hostilty. and i see you have called me a troll also, why? do you disagree wiith what i have said, if so, that still does not give you the right to throw perosnal attacks at me 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 21:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
sorry i started responding to a piece you wrote here before you deleted it, which i dont know why you did but this is what you said "I think we've all grown tired of your unintelligible diatribes. No one is attacking to you, we're simply responding to your comments at face value. As for you argument, I think it might be helpful for you to look up the meaning of "progressive", as you appear to be misunderstanding its use. Unless you actually have something positive to contribute, you might as well run along, as I doubt anyone else is interested in responding to your baseless accusations. Ta-ta."
and my response was
your smearing me again, and being patronising and you did and have thrown personal attacks. discuss the issue. and i do know what progressive means, either way israel is not "unlike most countries in the middle east" in terms of economic progress, (infact on wiki itself saudia arabia is listed as a developed/high income earning country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country ) and it is not the only democracy as i discussed before. why dont you actually deal with the issues, instead of attacking me constantly. you are not allowed to delete comments. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 22:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
youve proved my point by not talking about the issues ive raised. which are again : the use of the word "unlike" to describe israels economy, democracy, and human development. and mainly return to my point about the right of return, (which is what this section was about before okedom decided to slur his comments everywhere) okedom, have you looked at the links, and seen the points that have a risen. well in your next response, i accept to hear something about them, and not jus personal attacks, thank you. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 23:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
point me to where i have used "personal attacks", using the word propagandists does not come under the heading of "personal attacks" they are my opinions on the article. secondly. if you bothered looking closely, it was okedom, and newtman who had the indescency to call me, and i quote "an ip troll". that is unacceptable, and i think if your are going to "condemn" me i think you should do so with them also. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
ok okedom, you said and i paraphrase "israel did not break US and international law" when it uses US arms on civilians and kills innocents, conducts illegal wars, breaks geneva conventions it does break them, look at theses http://www.alternet.org/story/39628/ ; http://www.uruknet.info/?s1=1&p=24922&s2=23 ; http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m24992&l=i&size=1&hd=0 ; http://www.alternet.org/story/39628/ ; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4580139.stm ; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/16/wgaza116.xml ; http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201964,00.html ; http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2283898,00.html ; http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/08/24/amnesty_international_says_israel_committed_war_crimes/ ; some of these include general war crimes for killing innocents from countries like itlay, the swiss, and then there are independent organisation, like amnesty international, un etc etc, you can find more by googling
and btw, i cant find the page that i was looking for that further proves israel is breaking US law, when it uses there weapons on innocent civilians and not self-defence (which the lebabon war was considered, and proved by the sources i listed), but you can read former president carters book "israel peace not aparthied" where in the second or third chapter he states why it was illegal when israel used/uses weapons on killing civilians by referring to the US constition in his refences.
all this illustrates that there should be a sentence in the first intro paragraph, which shows israel breaking international and being condemned both internationally and by independent organisations aswell as the UN, whether israel denies is it or not is a matter of opinion and latter interpretation. btw you still havent answered my previous query, about how the lenabon war was not supported internationally thanks 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 00:08, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
you say and i quote "human rights abuses are not a central part of life in Israel", considering israel occupies the palestinians, and has done on a daily basis, and the fact that they have been living under occupation for 40 years, and considering the fact that israel has not stop building settlements, not stopped killing civilians, not stopped stealing land, and stopped there right of free movement, it is apart of israels central life. the palestinians are under israeli occupation, and thus the occupier has the responsibility over them, and that is written in the international laws that every country has to abide to. and i think your the one lacking covarge, as you disputed established facts. considering that most international organistations and countries have deemed there occupation illegal, it should be included in the first intro paragraph, because it is relevant and important to israel 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
im a extremist? because i rush through writing comments on wikipedia? or am i an extremist for providing sources that support my claims? you havent talked about any of the issues i raised, but youve instead spent the time correcting my grammer and spelling? why bother doing that?EDIT: so to sum up ive been called "troll" "anti-israel" and now a "extremist" "semi-literate " are these not personal attacks? i dont care any how, jus talk about the valid poaint i have raised. and the fact that it has been featured does not make this article "perfect" and beyond correctable, if i recall correctly it has been featured only this month, why was it not before? either way, i dont wana talk about that, and nor should you use that excuse to "debunk" my claims about the accuracy of this article. thank you
86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
taraq, there are other issues i raised, look above and answered some of your questions, 1 month-3 months big deal, it doesnt rid my claim that it being a featured article does not mean it is perfect beyond repair and 100% accurate.thank you as foe newtman : the list keeps getting longer so its "troll" "extremist" "anti-israel" "semi-lit" and now a "child". newtman youve not discussed any of my points, but have concentrated more on insults and personal attacks. ill ask you again like i said above, givin the establised fact, that over the decades and in the recrnt history israel has been condemned with beaking international law, and commited war crimes, why is this fact not in t he first intro paragraph, this is as important, or even more important then other things mentioned. a single sentence, stating that israel has a record number of un violations (source Jewish Virtual Library), and that israel has been charged with war crimes by international human rights groups (source amensty international, clearly stated under israeli page). and please newtman, like i said before do not be patronising and abusive towards me, it is not allowed and has no place here thank you 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 03:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This article contains wording that
promotes the subject in a subjective manner without imparting real information. |
the article contains many "peacock terms", which was what my intial comment in the "bias article" heading was about. one clear example of this, like i have discussed before was the inclusion of positive issues, with the exclusion of controversial. this is damning the importance and accuracy of the article. if sentences like "The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Land of Israel, a concept central to Judaism for over three thousand years."(which i am not denying to be false) have been used, there should be thought also given to the negetivity that israel is also renowned for up till late (lebanon war, war crimes, un violations, palestinian human rights abuses, some soucres above). and other sentences like Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel is a liberal democracy[10][11] and a developed country.[12] In the region, Israel is the most progressive in terms of freedom of the press,[13] economic competition,[14] and human development.[15] which may be true, is protrayed as "showing off the subject", (and the use of the word Unlike" that i have already discussed is also an issue.) the article is factual in many regards, but lacks over information. dicussion on zionism (the national movement) and its history are relevant but not any more important then points which israel has not been seen to well. people must understand that they must be objectional, and refrain themseleves from using "peacock terms". and if you dont know what it is, here is the definition: try to avoid peacock terms that merely show off the subject of the article without imparting real information 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 16:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
--
in addtion to what i have said above, i have see many other irrelavent, or peacock sentences that have been used. under the economy section this sentence is used It has the second-largest number of startup companies in the world (after the United States) and the largest number of NASDAQ-listed companies outside North America.[152] whilst this is also factual, i find it hard to see why this was discussed and not a single mention of israel condemnations. what i was also surprised to not find , was that the article has not stated, or used the word illegal to describe israels controversial settlements and out posts.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7082629.stm http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/9499 http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/middle-east-and-north-africa/east-mediterranean/israeloccupied-territories http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4328817.stm http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=13467 http://ue.eu.int/uedocs/cms_data/docs/2004/12/22/%7B3FA161D9-6DA6-408F-85CE-20D0EC68DDFF%7D.pdf
more emphasis is given on how to sell israels image, then the actual realities. talking about how good israel is, in regards of nobel prises, culture, democracy are all well and good, but this is not a tourism guide. i would like to see less "peacock" terms being used, and more thought be given to the real issues that israel faces intenationally. including a lead out link to israels illegal settlements would be a good idea. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 16:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
why has the statement that was above the page like 30 mins ago dissapeared, with nothing bein changed? thank you 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 16:27, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
after reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_peacock_terms i trying to put that status back on the article for the reasons i have listed above 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 16:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
---
Due to the number of problems people seem to have with the lead, it makes sense to consider a compromise version. The best way to address this is to use material directly from the sources and to attribute value judgements directly to the sources being quoted.
The reasoning for this can be found here and is also summarised in this quote
"John Doe is the best baseball player" is, by itself, merely an expression of opinion. One way to make it suitable for Wikipedia is to change it into a statement about someone whose opinion it is: "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre," as long as those statements are correct and can be verified. The goal here is to attribute the opinion to some subject-matter expert, rather than to merely state it as true.
The idea is that we let the facts (and sources) speak for themselves. -- Nosfartu ( talk) 23:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
this article makes reference to internationally disputed areas as israeli land ' Israel is home to a variety of geographic features...golan ' . As these pieces of land have been identified as disupted land, advertising this land as a part of israel is inaccurate and invalid. Past pieces of disupted of land have not be allocted to countries before the dispute has be resolved and seeing this has not, hence it having a status of disputed . and considering the syrians claim this land as theres, whilst the future palestinian state which could include east jersualam and other pieces of land it is inappropriate to advertise these lands as part of israel soverienty. it leaves the reader mis-led, and poorly informed. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 00:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Israel is the sovereign power in the Golan Heights. the wikipedia definition is " A sovereign is the supreme lawmaking authority, subject to no other". The fact that the area is disputed is irrelevant (in fact all of Israel is disputed). So long as Israel is the final arbiter of what happens there, Israel is sovereign. All citizens of the Golan are entitled to Israeli citizenship. There are no Palestinians there as it was conquered from Syria in 1967. The Arab population were evacuated by the Syrians in 1967. The population that remained are Druze. Some of whom, possibly many, (I have no figures) have taken Israeli ctizenship. Perhaps if you stopped reading the British press you would be better informed. Telaviv1 ( talk) 12:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I support the other anon above me, I find it a bit of a worrying thing that this article got FA status, partly because Its so constantly disputed and POV that there must be someone who pulled the strings with their own agenda. The fact remains that this article avoids the question of what Israel has rights to and what it dosent, and where eidtors on this talk page discuss this they nearly always refer to the ancient age of Israel. Israel as it stands today bears not much relationship (or at least shouldnt) to that of Judah several thousands years pior, and Im not intrested in hearing quasi-religious arugments from the many eager Israeli eidtors here. The point I am making is that Israel terrotories ARE disputed both internationally and internally. Dont try and catch me with the 'All of Israel is disputed' tagline, Israel may be disputed by some, but Israel has a governement which holds power over land and people, however even the Israeli govenerment has not stated what its final claims to its borders are, therefore the Golan heights are disputed, by Syria, by international law, and by those within Israel and the terrotories it has jurisdication over. In response to the other anon's question about why Palestinians are not given passports I can only give two awnsers, both of which might be disputed, but I cannot think of any other, That 1. Israel does not support inegration with Palestinian arabs and wishes to maintian a kind of ethocracy (a more disputed option), 2. (My own personal opinion) That is if the Israelis gave Palestinians to be Israeli citizens they would be outnumbered by voters who would liekly vote for a governemnt that either sympathised with the arabs or completely opposed the Israelis. This would be democracy, but this kind of fair democracy would be contrary to why Israel was founded, which was to allow Jewish people to rule their own country. Therefore it is better for the Israeli's if they do not have a fair or inclusive democracy.
Also, Ive noticed how rude some of editors on this talkpage will be, Ive visted this page before from time... to time, not commenting often, but it hasnt supprised me (note not a personal attack just pointing something out), that Okedem you have been insulting rather a lot of people, I can collect some examples from the archives if you want, but the patronising insult you wrote to one of the editors above me illustrates my point adequatly, I doubt you'll consider monitoring yourself for rude personal attacks, but I doubt equallly a complaint will come to anything, neither is it for me to complain if another editor has been attacked. As I dont currently have an account, and the editor above me is also using an IP, I dont think there are many options anyway.
Lastly, regarding what the editor said about this page being mainly edited seemingly by Israelis or just pro-Israelis, it seems a little unfair how many so called 'consensus' have came around by having pro-Israeli editors dissuade others from maing legitimate suggestions for the improvement of this article. I do not aoubt there may be plenty of anti-semites and wreckers having a go at this article, but personally I seem to feel all legitimate suggestions are opposed along with the illigitimate ones, and that because there seem to be so many Israeli editors, the consensus here are forced in a way (by people gangin up together). At any one time it seems ufortunate that there is usually only one or two editors who are in opposition to the current situation in Israel, against many Israeli editors who are in favour of it, with the Israeli-POV eidtors ranging from the helpful and legitimate, to the naive and/or extreme. 172.213.64.230 ( talk) 03:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Okedem if your really that bothered about the anon's comments, you could consider 1. Ignoring them 2. asking someone else to deal with them 3. Not insulting the anon in a way which is libel to start a fight.
172.213.64.230 (
talk)
04:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Just created a new account as I couldnt find the password to my old one. I am the IP of the last comment. Anti-BS Squad ( talk) 05:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | → | Archive 30 |
Under culture there is no reference to Israeli cuisine but instead a reference to Jewish cuisine. Jewish cuisine does not belong here as it is different from Israeli cuisine.
I wonder why an academic source like the ecology research center of Ben Gurion University of the Negev is a "less pertinent source" for information on makhtashim. Deleting a reference because someone doesn't like the formatting seems a little odd to me.-- Gilabrand 09:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
"I have told you on several occasions that you were doing good work and that I appreciated your dedication to the article, but these were always acknowledged by you reverting any information I introduced to the article without the slightest care why it was put there."
"...and you have been consistently inconsiderate of others, using a haughty tone that has scared away many."
If this article is any good, it's because of the "interesting facts" I have added to it.
You will continue to delete, but I will continue to add. Maybe that's the difference between us.
Hi there,
I am wondering why the Al-Aqsa Mosque was omitted as one of the buildings of religious significance in Jerusalem under the Religion heading?
Thanks very much
-- Columbe 04:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
No reason to????? So the fact that it's the most important site in Jerusalem for Muslims is no reason to include it in the list??!!!
Anyway, I see it's been changed... that's great...
60.234.244.140 08:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Since there has recently been a campaign to qualify the idea that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and I see there were a few changes to the infobox to reflect this, let me say this:
Yes, I understand many may come to this article (or the Jerusalem article) shocked, saying wait, what? I thought Tel Aviv was the capital of Israel. An explanatory note on Jerusalem – and perhaps even here – might be okay, but let's stick to the facts. Anyone who arrives here thinking Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel is not "right" or "kind of right" or "right if you think about it this way". No, he or she is wrong. UN Resolution 478, which was (erroneously) quoted as the source of the idea that Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel, does not say Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. It condemns one of Israel's basic laws (known as the Jerusalem Law) in strong terms, but it does not in any way, shape, or form say Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. So, if you want to put an explanatory note that says many (or most?) countries do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, that certainly is on the table. However, if you want to go farther and say Tel Aviv is the capital, that's not correct; Israel can choose its capital and it has chosen Jerusalem. -- tariqabjotu 05:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Jerusalem is not the capital city!!! aghh! whats wrong with you. its a disputed region. the creation of Palestine will contain Jerusalem as its capital, as it rightfully belongs, according to the internationally renowned borders, created in 1947.cause The era of colonisation is over, and if done today is considered illegal under international law, as its simply 'steeling land'. Its a disgrace Israelis can even write it down, after all the suffering it has caused. 40 years of illegal occupation! and illegal settlement building! why dont you write about that! israeli oppression of innocent, and mass punishments! everything one of those points, make Israel a defiant nation, that has no respect for law. How can they even sit amoungst other nations, which that attitude. They hate the laws that go aaginst them, but love the ones that are for them. Cherry-picking!! agh very annoying (Anna) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.179.254 ( talk)
Hello guys,
First, I had to realise I was partially wrong about UN Resolution 478. I just misread the sentence, and tought that the resolution was taken under chapt. 7 =_= Sorry for that.
Anyway I think that the "controversy" about Israeli capital deserves a footnote. Even if the "official" international right do not recognize the nullity of Jerusalem Law, the fact that 90% of the world countries have their ambassy in Tel-Aviv and not not recognize Jerusalem as the capital is important enough to consider the resolution as "soft law" or "custom law" considering however the "persistant objector view" of Israel.
Rember that one of the main role of a capital is to host ambassies. If 95% (exluding Bolivia and Paraguay and including US whose president do not ratify the ambassy move) of the world's country consider you'r capital chose as "irrelevant", it's certainely a problem, this case is nearly unique.
Let's keep Jerusalem as capital with the footnote previously added. I think it's fair and it does not seem to be considered a problem among others editors. ;) Mrpouetpouet ( talk) 19:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Whether Jerusalem is the capital of Israel is a sensitive question and I think that we should be more careful. Citing it as the Israeli capital without clearer explanation is clearly POV. A footnote is not enough.
Wikipedia should not be making judgments on something than the BBC, the United Nations, the European Union, the British, Canadian, New Zealand, and Australian Foreign Offices (among others) have felt unable to. Even the US Government, which accepts it as the capital, clearly says that the status of Jerusalem is disputed. The references to the Jerusalem Law are interesting, but only in that they show the Israeli view of the position of Jerusalem, which is still undoubtedly disputed territory. I would to change the sentence to:
“ Jerusalem is the nation's seat of government, largest city[1] and capital city (internationally disputed).” [1]
I know my reference isn’t great, but it seemed to be the one which contained the most accessible information. There is information on the Israeli government site about the disputed status but the relevant but is halfway down a long page.
I don’t want to change things without discussion so I will wait for comment. Shambles2007 ( talk)shambles 26 November 2007 —Preceding comment was added at 12:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
The main role of a capital is to host the nation's center of government, hosting embassies is secondary. The UN does not have the right to determine where the capital of a soveriegn nation is. Also, take into consideration that the other nations did not wish to place their embassies in the center of a religiously motivated dispute that has in the past erupted into combat. That's a good enough excuse to not put the embassy in the capitol, but not a good one for telling Isreal where its capital is. Jerusalem should maintain it's position as capital. Tyrnell ( talk) 17:09, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I think that the last paragraph of the introduction section should be modified so that it doesn't compare Israel with its neighbours in terms of democracy, corruption, development etc. For instance, instead of saying "Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel is a liberal democracy[10][11] and a developed country." I suggest it should be modified to just "Israel is a liberal democracy and a developed country". The comparison with its neighbours doesn't add any real value to the introduction and makes it less objective in tone. Israel is better than many other countries when it comes to democracy and human development indices. Highlighting these differences with just its neighbours is hence unfair and unnecessary. Truetyper ( talk) 22:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
The argument about the "developped country" is wrong. Quatar or Dubaï are developped too (look at GDP per capital PPP). You can compare Israel with other country in his region but the sentence "Unlike most countries in the Middle East" is typically useless and agressive.
Mrpouetpouet ( talk) 23:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
By developed country (or part of State as Qatar it dosen't change anything) most of people understand High income country, if we want to give it another signification here it must be precised for the reader.
I don't say that comparing "Israel to other countries in the Middle East is "useless" and "aggressive"". =_= I said : "the sentence "Unlike most countries in the Middle East" is typically useless and agressive." That's very different. You can compare Israel with other countries no problem but saying that this way is, assuming good faith, exposing a point of view which is in opposition with the well-known NPOV rule. We have to act very carefully when making a judgement on an article as this one and this sentence expresses "prima facie" a point of view even if it's perhaps not the goal of the editor.
I really cannot understand the problem with this version ??? : "Israel is a liberal democracy and a developed country. In the Middle-East, Israel is the least corrupt, and the most progressive in terms of freedom of the press, economic competition, and human development."
If any editor have a major problem with this formulation please remove but don't forget to explain your arguments here and to assume good faith.
Then, for the soccer => football. It's a convention that soccer is called football as it is the name used by most of humans on earth and I suppose also in Israel, expected when it must be differentiated from other football for exemple American football. Same for rugby, when you speak about only Rugby, the readers assume you speak of Rugby union. Look at the name of the 2007 world cup : 2007 Rugby World Cup => It's Rugby union =_= There is a little problem with football because of the american version, which is also very popular. However the reader can easily understand which one you'r talking about considering the article. The sport played in Israel is football (soccer) not american football, isn't it ?? So we have to speak about football.
Mrpouetpouet ( talk) 15:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
like an administrator or someone else who doesn't have a political or regional bias
How the hell is this an FA article?did ya buy the administrators or what?this article is sad!it to biased in most of the senteced i read!its like propaganda EdwinCasadoBaez ( talk) 10:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
hes got a point thoug? How DID this article get FA status, I dont mean to question the obviously perfect judiciary, but It does seem a bit iffy for one of the most disputed articles I have seen personally on wikipedia. 172.213.64.230 ( talk) 04:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Again, this sentence has been debated ad nauseum:
If you're going to denounce the sentence (and particularly the word "most") as "POV", "argumentative", and "vituperative", you better be prepared to back that up – and well. I don't think any of the people changing the sentence are prepared to do that. Even if they are, I highly doubt those efforts would be successful. Look: Arab countries are in a worse condition than Israel on several metrics. Get over it; that's a fact of life (for now, at least). It's not "POV" to say that. -- tariqabjotu 20:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Unlike many countries in the Middle East, Israel is a progressive liberal democracy (references:[10][11]) and is considered a developed country. (reference:[12]) As a liberal democracy, surrounded by less democratic nations, Israel is constantly seeking to eliminate corruption from its branches of government and protect freedom of the press, human rights and an economic freemarket. (references 13, 14, 15 and 16).
" Again, this sentence has been debated ad nauseum:
You answered yourself do you think it's normal to have so many discussion about that I really don't understand why you absolutely want to keep this sentence exactly in the sam terms: "Israel is a liberal democracy and a developed country. In the Middle-East, Israel is the least corrupt, and the most progressive in terms of freedom of the press, economic competition, and human development.""
Consensus is one of wikipedia's pillar if you cannot agree to a so little change, guy type lists of GDP which (nearly) don't suffer any controvery. The edit policy on wikipedia is "to asumme other editors good faith". We are following a perfect good faith in saying that part of the sentence is totally unacceptable. The new sentence just correct that problem can you find something wrong in "Israel is a liberal democracy and a developed country. In the Middle-East, Israel is the least corrupt, and the most progressive in terms of freedom of the press, economic competition, and human development." ?????????? It isn't dilute the truth, is it ???
"Look: Arab countries are in a worse condition than Israel on several metrics. Get over it; that's a fact of life (for now, at least)" It's not the fact the problem it's the way of saying these facts.
For exemple I can add that Israel is around the end of the developed country list in terms of freedom of the press, economic competition, and human development. It will certainely be a fact and a NPOV one (in your vision) and I can argue that it's useful to compare Israel with other developed country =_= It will just be agressive and useless as the present text is.
Guy, let stop this stupid editwar now. Such a little edit doesn't deserve that really. Thanks for understanding. Just look at above if we reach a consensus for Jerusalem as capital cannot we find one with this prob ???
Mrpouetpouet ( talk) 21:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I am an outsider here. I just stopped by to get some information. I realize that this article is under constant attack, and so this makes it difficult to maintain it. However, I notice that there are several grammatical and formatting problems that have arisen in the article.
I also have to disagree with Mrpouetpouet. However, first, Mrpouetpouet, it is difficult to read and understand most of your comments. It might be helpful to have a friend that knows English better help you with your posts to English Wikipedia. Otherwise, your arguments are less compelling because they are hard to follow, mainly because of linguistic difficulties.
Although there are certainly problems with Israel as a society, these pale in comparison with those of most Arab countries. Israel is not a perfect democracy, but it is certainly more democratic than most Arab countries. If you look at this report from Reporters Without Borders, the US and Israel are graded as having much more freedom of the press than any Arab country, at least within their own borders. Also, since the US and Israel are taken to task for their behavior outside their own territories, this organization is not "controlled by thieving filthy Jews" or "right wing fascists" or some other nonsense. On almost any other measure, including Income inequality metrics, Israel is far superior to Arab countries. Of course, one can include areas outside Israeli control like the Gaza Strip to paint a different picture, but this is basically unfair.
Although there are terrible problems associated with Israel, it does not really serve any useful purpose to try to bias the article and present Israel as completely evil and horrendous in all aspects. Although I appreciate the anger that this produces among Arabs and their supporters, it does not help the reader to understand Israel. Should Wikipedia be turned into a political anti-semitic tract? -- Filll ( talk) 15:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
"Israel is around the end of the developed country list in terms of freedom of the press, economic competition, and human development"
Can you substantiate that statement?
Incidentally the Palestinian Authority scores higher then Egypt, Algeria, Syria, Morocco and the Yemen in tems of HDI (see List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index or Arab-Israeli conflict facts, figures, and statistics)
Telaviv1 ( talk) 15:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
It's not that the facts presented are false, it's that they are presented in a POV & polemical fashion. I would say this falls under WP:PEACOCK. Anyway this section of the intro sticks out like a sore thumb & should be changed. Maybe nominating the article for a check of it's neutrality would be the way to go. Fennessy ( talk) 17:54, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I have no problem delaring Isreal the beacon to the Mid East but The phrase is worded wrong to sound like half of an insult "Iran sucks UNLIKE Israel which is..." The contents shouldn't be changed but the wording I cannot deny that what it says is true however the word unlike just sounds POV by nature.-- Matterfoot ( talk) 23:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Okedem, I have never seen a passage on a country article before that is phrased to be deliberately confrontational & provokative as this one is.
And Tariqabjotu, judging by your previous posts here you seem to be far too emotionally involved in this issue to be constructive or balanced regarding it. Going out of your way to include snide remarks about other countries is hardly "innocuous". <
Fennessy/
talk>
00:09, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
"you better be prepared to back that up – and well(emphasis added)."
"Get over it"
That isn't the way an objective person discusses an issue like this. My observation is completley vaild.
If the section in question is being complained about ad nauseum then the problem is obvious —the tone for that paragraph is wrong & all you accomplish by trying to keep it that way is discrediting the article. You really have to ask yourself why anyone would insist on it being that way when a minor modification would keep all the information presented intact & also not seem like it's intentionally trying to tick people off.
Sadly even some admins keep biases, especially when it comes to nationality/ethnic/religious issues like this one. <
Fennessy/
talk>
14:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
The term is POV. "Unlike other Middle Eastern countries" is completely irrelevant to the introduction of an article about Israel; the statement can be discussed further down the article. The word is a peacock and it sticks out blatantly. It immediately tries to draw one in to the Arab-Israeli conflict, but of course, in a context that would favor Israel (democratic standards). As someone above said, it would be inappropriate to say "Unlike other Middle Eastern countries, Israel has not signed the NPT (despite possessing WMDs), continues to sanction an illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, and has made East Jerusalem a part of their capital. The illegal occupation and the annexation of East Jerusalem are not internationally recognized whatsoever." Would such a statement be appropriate for this introduction? Absolutely not. Neither is the current statement. It can be stated that Israel is a liberal democracy without bringing the Arab states into the discussion. Not only is it irrelevant, it's POV. How can such a statement garner so much attention if it weren't POV? It immediately caught my eye, and clearly I'm not the only one! I'm not even Arab!
BTW, simply saying Israel's HDI is "high" is very misleading. It is technically ranked as high, but its position is only slightly higher than states like Brunei, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, etc... That hardly would be considered high by Western standards; Israel is high by global standards or Middle Eastern standards only, but certainly not Western as many people on this page are trying to suggest. Kuwait just gave women the right to vote a few years ago and in the UAE South Asians are unofficially enslaved. That's not "high" by Western standards, but their HDI's are still relatively close to Israel's. SAUDI ARABIA'S HDI is ranked as "High," and any moron that has even slight education on the Middle East is aware that Saudi Arabia is the most oppressive regime in the entire region. - 68.43.58.42 ( talk) 20:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
"Unlike other Middle Eastern countries, Israel has not signed the NPT (despite possessing WMDs), continues to sanction an illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, and has made East Jerusalem a part of their capital. The illegal occupation and the annexation of East Jerusalem are not internationally recognized whatsoever."
Okedem, if you've read what was said about Israel's HDI relative to its neighbors in this talk thread, you would understand where my statement was coming from. Germany's HDI is fairly low compared to Western Europe, Northern Europe and the United States/Canada. Certainly Israel's HDI is classified as "high," but so is Saudi Arabia's. Big deal. In my very last sentence I already mocked the usage of HDI as a method to determine how progressive Israeli politics are. Please read what I write before you reply.
My primary criticism came over the usage of "Unlike other Middle Eastern countries.." within the lead. It's a POV statement that attempts to subtly introduce the Arab-Israeli conflict within a context that would favor Israel (Democratic Standards). Not only is "Unlike other Middle Eastern countries" irrelevant to an introduction on the State of Israel, but it is also a blatant POV statement. Should we include discussion about the internationally unrecognized military occupation of East Jerusalem and the Palestinian territories in the lead as well? Certainly, "unlike most Arab states," Israel does sponsor what is essentially a colonization project on internationally recognized Palestinian territory. Of course, this would never be appropriate information for a lead! The article isn't even about Israel's geopolitics! It's about Israel as a state and a collectivity! The fact that someone would defend the statement "Unlike.." in a lead paragraph when it is clearly unnecessary is incredible.
This unnecessary shot should be removed. I think it has already been thoroughly criticized, not just by me, but by countless individuals (Arab or otherwise), as this talk page clearly proves.. It's unencyclopedic, unnecessary, and shows a favorable point of view towards Israel. If we're going to include a list of "compare and contrast" between Israel and "most other Middle Eastern nations," then by all means, let's do it. But let's not place it in the lead, where it is clearly unnecessary, and let's not try to reduce all geopolitics within the region to "Well, Israel has a more democratic government, therefore their foreign policy is acceptable." That is what this lead is insinuating, and it's inappropriate for an encyclopedia. This is not Israelisperfectpedia. An encyclopedia is supposed to inform; it is not supposed to be a persuasive essay that gives us a favorable view of Israel relative to its neighbors in the opening paragraphs. Can anyone provide a reason WHY this comment deserves to be included? If not, then I think we should start removing it. These threads are becoming redundant. - 68.43.58.42 ( talk) 22:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Okedem, have you even read this thread?
"Israel is around the end of the developed country list in terms of freedom of the press, economic competition, and human development"
Can you substantiate that statement?
Incidentally the Palestinian Authority scores higher then Egypt, Algeria, Syria, Morocco and the Yemen in tems of HDI (see List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index or Arab-Israeli conflict facts, figures, and statistics) - Telaviv1
I mentioned HDI in response to comments above. I don't have an issue with listing Israel's HDI as "high" on the sidebar, since that would be its official classification. I think I've already made attempts to drop it twice, but apparently you haven't realize it.
I suppose the inclusion of East Jerusalem wouldn't be a good example, but certainly there are better ones. Israel is the only state in the region that sanctions an illegal occupation. Israel has been at war more than any other state in the region. Israel has violated more UN resolutions than any state in the region. Should we include all of these contrasts in the lead as well? Do those fit the "metrics" of the situation? I thought the point was rather clear, but apparently we've reduced this argument to a game of "who can play more stupid." So again, can anyone provide a reason why the contrast is necessary in a lead paragraph on Israel? I haven't received any good answers.
The inclusion of a contrast between Israel's democracy and other regional states is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT to a lead paragraph, so I don't understand how you are trying to justify this. It's perfectly fine to say Israel is a liberal democracy in the lead, but the "Unlike most other Middle Eastern countries" is entirely irrelevant to a lead. The article isn't about Israel's foreign policy relations! The 3rd paragraph of the lead is introducing geopolitics of the Middle East in a context that would favor Israel, and the "unlike.." sticks out to any casual reader immediately. Why are we introducing the Arabs into an article that isn't even about them? In the lead, no less? Fair enough, how about we add:
Unlike other Middle Eastern countries, Israel continues to illegally occupy foreign territory, has violated over 100 UN Resolutions, and has been at war more than any other nation in the region.
Of course, you would never go for that type of contrast in a lead (nor would I). But you would go for this one? The fact is, there shouldn't be any compare/contrast between Israel and the Arabs in a lead paragraph on ISRAEL. This article isn't the Arab-Israeli conflict article. Can you give a reason why we SHOULD keep it? I haven't heard that one yet, and you seem as though you don't have a good one. There are appropriate ways to introduce a state's form of government that are more appropriate. Turkey's lead introduces their government like this:
Turkey, classified as a developing country, is a democratic, secular, unitary, constitutional republic whose political system was established in 1923 under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, following the fall of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of World War I. Since then, Turkey has become increasingly integrated with the West while continuing to foster relations with the Eastern world.
I really don't understand why you insist that the contrast be included.- 68.43.58.42 ( talk) 23:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
I really am getting tired of discussing the HDI with you. I intended for that to be a mere side note, but you haven't dropped it. This thread isn't even about Israel's HDI. As for your response on the statement, I found it to be a rather weak argument.
...it is important for the reader's understanding - Israel's situation is very different than that of a West European democracy. One of the aspect of this - the intense hatred of Israel common in some Arab/Muslim nations which have never had any conflict with Israel. This hatred if very often fueled by the government itself, usually to distract the public from the poor economic situation, or the fact they live under an extremely oppressive regime. Every dictator knows that when you give the public an enemy (real or imaginary), they unite against it - and not against the dictator (i.e - Iran, which never warred with Israel, and isn't even close to it). That said, I've never been a fan of that particular wording, and wouldn't object to a better one, still keeping the comparison. -okedem
Your defense for the "Unlike.." essentially amounts to original research and doesn't even deserve a response in the first place. The example you provided (Iran) is a very weak example for your case. Most Iranians are pro-American, pro-Western, largely ambivalent towards the Israeli-Palestinian issue, and consider their economy to the most important issue [2]. Further, Iran's government is not dictatorial in its character [3]. Iran certainly does have a clerical clique that holds a disproportionately large amount of power within Iran's political structure, but the system is not a dictatorship. Iranians have universal suffrage and, from 1997 to 2005, Iran was appearing to be on a path towards reconciliation with the United States. Certainly Ahmadinejad has hampered that, but Ahmadinejad's overreaching foreign policy and failure to encourage urban development has caused him to lose virtually all voter support.
Even if we ignore your poor example, your statement is still original research that cannot be applied universally (or to any Wikipedia article in the first place). Not all citizenry "unite with the dictator." You cannot prove this. I already discredited the only example you provided! This is a very weak defense for a statement that has already garnered so much criticism.
Even if your statement were universally true, it is wholly unnecessary to discuss Arab-Israeli relations in a lead paragraph on the State of Israel. It is simply irrelevant to Israel as its own entity. Would you open an article on Turkey or Greece with the Greek/Turkish Cypriot dispute? I think I have made my case rather clear, and you have simply ignored it. I already quoted about how the Turkey article introduces Turkey's economy and political structure without discussing current disputes or Turkey's relations with the Middle East in a political context (which would, of course, be inapplicable to the subject of Turkey as a state and an exclusive entity); this current sentence is introducing the greater geopolitical picture of the Middle East in an article that is exclusively about Israel. There is an appropriate place for these contrasts between Israel and its neighbors (e.g. Arab-Israeli conflict), but an introduction on Israel is certainly an inappropriate place. You are correct that I've revived a thread almost a month old, but if I scroll just a tiny bit down it becomes quite obvious that I'm not the only person that has complained about this sentence. It appears this sentence has attracted attention for months and by countless individuals. Now are you going to give me a straight response? I answered your claim directly and I think I won. - 68.43.58.42 ( talk) 19:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
So basically... Israel is being used a scapegoat to distract attention away from the government. Yet, these governments have failed in several cases (Iran being a notable example). That's great. The fact of the matter is, you have shifted the discussion from Israel to the Arab States and Iran and that's entirely irrelevant to an article on Israel (at least for a lead paragraph). Simply because governments fuel anti-Israeli sentiment does not mean it is effective, nor does it mean it is measurable in anyway. Moreover, it has no bearing to this current article! It's entirely off-topic! Towards the end of your post, you said you will ignore the example of Turkey and Greece because that's only one example of a political clash that goes unmentioned in a lead... Fair enough. There are 191 states in the world. Find 10 examples of nations that have similar leads and I'll concede that maybe your right. My assumption would be that the most you would find are nations that currently have border/land disputes (e.g. Argentina's land claim over the Falkland Islands, Taiwain, Serbia, Kosovo, etc). I highly doubt you will find a sentence like "Unlike other Southeast Asian nations, Thailand has emerged as a beacon of democracy." Such a statement adds nothing to the article and, just like in this case, sounds completely out of context. At this point, you have reduced this into a fight over the Arabs, and the article isn't even about them (Perhaps that can be seen as a testament to why this sentence is so poorly written and out of place - because it has nothing to do with Israel, even though it is placed in the lead!). - 68.43.58.42 ( talk) 00:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
This article states that "unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel is a developed country." That statement implies that the rest of the Middle East is not developed. That is utter nonsense and usually only uttered by Zionists in their effort to demonize Arabs.
Perhaps you should throw this in: Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel has an official policy, called the Samson Option, whereby they have already decided they will launch all of their nuclear weapons at all of their Middle East neighbors (perhaps even Moscow as well) should they ever be in imminent danger of losing a war. Israel poses an infinitely more probable threat of global nuclear holocaust than it's Middle East neighbors. 75.162.248.252 ( talk) 03:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
It is certainly much more different to say "Israel has the highest human development index in the region" versus "Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel has high human development. The first sentence is a fact; the second sentence carries a tone of condescension, whether or not it was the author's intention."
Seems like there's more than just a bit of POV in this article... The introduction notwithstanding, one would think that an article on perhaps the most controversial nation on earth would have a bit more talk about the controversies. What IS here is written in an incredibly passive voice, and there seems to be as little mention as possible of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, odd considering the fact that said conflict should be a mainstay of the article if we are to maintain a global perspective on Israel itself. I'm not about to start any edit wars, but if we are to maintain any level of neutrality, there are glaring omissions to be corrected and entire sections to be rewritten. I see that accusations of anti-semitism are being thrown around anyway (blatant violation of the "Assume Good Faith", but I'm no sentinel of the WP rules,) this is to be expected on an article such as this, but it's really quite ridiculous... Kirottu82 ( talk) 07:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
it just strikes me as odd how the "economy" and "education" section of this article are entirely ranking statements, that is saying how well Israel compares to other nations, how innovative they are, how wonderfully they are developing etc. it seems very un-professional to turn these fact-based sections into a series of praise statements. comparable sections in other country articles blandly state: "This country 's economy is based on X, they do Y amount of trade mostly with these nations..." Whereas this article, if you'll read it closely, says things like: "Israel, despite its tremendous obstacles, has leaped to forefront of X and is doing the world's most innovative Y, etc. This doesn't read like an encyclopedia entry, it reads like a travel-book or a country advertisement. We need to tone down the language in these sections and remember that they are supposed to provide a neutral summary of the information, not a cheering section.
(standard disclaimer about being neither Arab nor Jewish, nor invested in the conflict in any way) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.20.252.127 ( talk) 19:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
like usual the israeli ***** here havent made this article of NPOV. it is full with hatred towards its arabs neighbours, and betrays them as incompetent, babaric and undecuated. "unlike other countries in the middle east" is a absolute irrelvant fact, would there be any objection if someone wrote "israel is the only country in the middle east that has a record number of war crimes against its name because of its treatment of the palestininans or that israel is the only country that has broken international law when it builds its settlements and doesnt give the palestinians rights they deserve as being under occupation , because that point is as relevant as that. secondly, there should be a small paragraph dedicated to the disputed areas, and its illegal settlement program that has been condenmed internationally. further more there should be mention of how israel is deemed by the international community to be ethinically cleansing israel to rid the muslims from israel (alliyah) to increase jewish population. thirdly under the military section, there should be mention that israel has broken US laws when it uses/used the weaponry given to it by the US on lebabon, and every single time it uses it on palestinian civilians. this is because, correct me if im wrong, the US only gives aid to israel for defence, and the lebabon war was and is not considered self-defence, on the contray it was considered illegal under international law. There should also be a section in which israel is shown to have repeatdly killed innocent bystanders under false intel, which have also been deemed illgeal under international law as ware crimes. okedom, and the other **** here, seem to put in irrelavent information that favours israels image, but fail to tell the entire story in the fear it might damage israels image. either make this a NPOV article or have passages talking about the controversial topics, which israel always seems to be tangled in. this article is not to promote israels image, but to tell the truth, so take the negatives with the positives because there there same side of a coin. and for the sake of repeatition, exclude the non-NPOV or allow controversial issues to be dicussed. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 11:20, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
i have not attacked any one with "personal attacks" but okedom and newtman, and yourself now have. my stance on israel, and my political believes towards israel has nothing to do with being objectional, just like i would like to hope your personal attachment to israel does not also. name calling me "anti-israel" is unacceptable, and is a "personal attack". now please stop it and talk about the points i have brought up, and do not change the headings as i do not want my ip to appear as a heading 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
em wrong again, thank your propagandists. turkey is in the middle east, and is also considered a developed country and a democracy. jordon is also a democracy. the use of words "unlike" protray israels neighbours in a negative light, which is of no relevance to this. and if someone does say it is of importance, then kindly add a section talking about israels war crime. the fact that someone has added this point about democracy is like i said before only to sway israels image into a good light. this clearly illustrates this articles bias, and falsehood. EDIT: and also, iraq and afganistan are also a democracy now that the old regimes have gone, and free and fair elections have been held, and deemed democratic by the international community. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 11:44, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
unlike other countries in the middle east, israel is a ""liberal democracy""? this implies and gives the impression to any sane person that israel is the only democracy, it is condesending, patronising and shows that israel ""liberal"" democracy is superior to the democracies of iraq, afganistan, jorn turkey. i have looked at other country wiki's and no ridiculous sentence as the one used here is used there. if you take the sentence in the context that it is given, it very much plants an impression of israeli superiority. the fact about being a liberal democracy compared to a conservative democracy is not relevant. in fact, israels democracy is not even liberal in the traditional sense, as it uses both jewish law along with other democratic governance. and i know it doesnt mean israel is the only democracy and developed countries (along with the only progressive), put in the context, it certainly implies that. getting rid of the word "Unlike" would not change the paragraph, so my suggestion is that we not use it, because the use of the "Unlike" gives that """impression"" 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
this is also not relevant, as it gives an image to the reader that other countries in the region are not progressive. although it may be true it is the MOST , it has no relevance, or has as much relevance as israels other controverial issues that nobody has discussed here, (or said it belongs in a separate article). the fact that saudia arbia are only a few palces down in the economic competition list given on the site, followed by the UAE flaws the reasoning to include this in the article. after looking at other wiki's of the countries on the list, none mention that they are the "most" progressive the way this article does. in my opinion it is only to show israel as superior then other coutries. coming to freedom of press, again who ever wrote this really does make a mess of it., the writer has gome off on tangents for the sake of protarying israel as "progressive" the fact that countries like joron and egpyt with iraq and afganistan are also making alot of progress compared to there previous regimes is undermined by this sentence.
EDIT:and the fact that in human development, countries like kuwait ( which are only 10 spots back ), also helps support the argument this section is irrelvant, and untrue. on other wiki's about countries on that list, no mention is given to there feat. the relevance of it can be judged by comparing it to more serious and controversial issues such as the "war crime" claims and "breaking of international law". puutting that aside, i find it also makes the articles not of NPOV, as it only gives "thrills"
to israeli (who seem to be the people editing the article)
86.163.1.210 ( talk) 11:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
again tariq, youve lacked the ability to actually listen to what i have said, i said it gives the false "impression" that israel is the more superior country in the middle east, and that no other country is near them, when according to the soucres given, that is jus simply not the case. Edit: the word "unlike" is not approapriate and should be rightfully discarded for the reason i have given (gives the impression israel is superior and that no other country is economically progressive or democratic) 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
no dicussion to how israel does not allow the palestinians that used to live on, what is now israel, the right of reuten but is given to jews from all around th world. an issue that has been of concern to the international community. i have good sources that show this. another point which is controversial but relevant, is how other countries has expressed there discontent towards to israel for explouuting there jewish communites, and luring them with money incentives. it has been deemed ethically immoral by scholars, who argue that people of jewish background are helped, and not others, which is prejudicial. noam chomsky is one. (ironically he is a jew also, who has been smeared "a self-hating jew" by other jews and israelis 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
"anonymous ip troll", wow arent we faul? is that allowed, or have the rules changed for you all of a sudden. if i registered would that make me less anonymous? now stop it, israel did not enjoy support from the world for its war, http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A99D0477-B0EC-449C-82BE-26C15C2D2068.htm there actions were considered illegal and an absolute misjudgement/over reaction, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6981557.stm http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL12851214 http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3275042,00.html
thats not my opinion, its russias frances, intertional organisations etc etc jus look it up your first comment doesnt prove anything, there are still errors in this article, (i probably predict a zionist passed it), but either way that is no arguement to use counter my point. and sorry your the one ranting, ive stuck to the point, and your tryin to smear what i am sayin. and as for the "most developed" part, if you had read it properly, i said it gave the impression that all other countries in the region are some how inferior, which is incorrect as there are countries right behind it. and as for the only democracy, like i said, turkey, jordon, iraq, and afghanistan are democracies, so you should delete the fact that israel is the only democracy in the middle-east 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 21:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thats no excuse to call me a troll, and i did not know you were a editor, which further strengthens my case that this article was only featured because editors like yourself, due to personal attachment want to pass on inaccurate information. i strongly suggest you retract your comment, because it is unacceptable. aand BTW i have given sources to back my "pov" so there goes your theory 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 21:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
i said either way though, which throws your argument out the window,,,are you going to contiune agruing with me baselessly. and do not throw personal attacks on me, i do not have a chip on my shoulder, and it is inapproperiate to say that here. you have not spoken once about the issues but have continually tried to smear me, firstly by callin me a troll, now saying im big-headed, please do not reply to me if you are goin to be immature thank you 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 21:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
okedom, you said and i quote "Since no one claims Israel is the "only developed/democratic country in the middle east", I'll ignore that whole section", i agree no one claims that, but was not what i was talking about. if you read the article it said and i quote "Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel is a liberal democracy[10][11] and a developed country.[12] In the region, Israel is the most progressive in terms of freedom of the press,[13] economic competition,[14] and human development" this is inaccurate as it suggests most countries are not ecomic competitors, (which according to your sources is not correct, and several arab countries are ranked little below israel). and as for the comment about most progressive in terms of human development, that is also an inaccuracy, as the soucre gives a list of countries and there human devleopement status, not how progreesive there human devleopment has been. further more, if you decide the source for that claim is credible, then from the same source you will be able to identify that israels neighbours (UAE KSA) are not that far of the list. over all your agrument is very light wieght,,please discuss thank you 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 21:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
and okedom, please do not cherry pick the claims that i have made about this article, you said and i quote "This is why Israel enjoyed wide international support for the war." now i have supplied you with links, and can do so with more if you require., please answer all my points, as they are valid,m and if they are not, tell me why. i do not appreciate being spoken to in a patronising tone also, you are creating hostilty. and i see you have called me a troll also, why? do you disagree wiith what i have said, if so, that still does not give you the right to throw perosnal attacks at me 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 21:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
sorry i started responding to a piece you wrote here before you deleted it, which i dont know why you did but this is what you said "I think we've all grown tired of your unintelligible diatribes. No one is attacking to you, we're simply responding to your comments at face value. As for you argument, I think it might be helpful for you to look up the meaning of "progressive", as you appear to be misunderstanding its use. Unless you actually have something positive to contribute, you might as well run along, as I doubt anyone else is interested in responding to your baseless accusations. Ta-ta."
and my response was
your smearing me again, and being patronising and you did and have thrown personal attacks. discuss the issue. and i do know what progressive means, either way israel is not "unlike most countries in the middle east" in terms of economic progress, (infact on wiki itself saudia arabia is listed as a developed/high income earning country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country ) and it is not the only democracy as i discussed before. why dont you actually deal with the issues, instead of attacking me constantly. you are not allowed to delete comments. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 22:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
youve proved my point by not talking about the issues ive raised. which are again : the use of the word "unlike" to describe israels economy, democracy, and human development. and mainly return to my point about the right of return, (which is what this section was about before okedom decided to slur his comments everywhere) okedom, have you looked at the links, and seen the points that have a risen. well in your next response, i accept to hear something about them, and not jus personal attacks, thank you. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 23:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
point me to where i have used "personal attacks", using the word propagandists does not come under the heading of "personal attacks" they are my opinions on the article. secondly. if you bothered looking closely, it was okedom, and newtman who had the indescency to call me, and i quote "an ip troll". that is unacceptable, and i think if your are going to "condemn" me i think you should do so with them also. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
ok okedom, you said and i paraphrase "israel did not break US and international law" when it uses US arms on civilians and kills innocents, conducts illegal wars, breaks geneva conventions it does break them, look at theses http://www.alternet.org/story/39628/ ; http://www.uruknet.info/?s1=1&p=24922&s2=23 ; http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m24992&l=i&size=1&hd=0 ; http://www.alternet.org/story/39628/ ; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4580139.stm ; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/16/wgaza116.xml ; http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201964,00.html ; http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2283898,00.html ; http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/08/24/amnesty_international_says_israel_committed_war_crimes/ ; some of these include general war crimes for killing innocents from countries like itlay, the swiss, and then there are independent organisation, like amnesty international, un etc etc, you can find more by googling
and btw, i cant find the page that i was looking for that further proves israel is breaking US law, when it uses there weapons on innocent civilians and not self-defence (which the lebabon war was considered, and proved by the sources i listed), but you can read former president carters book "israel peace not aparthied" where in the second or third chapter he states why it was illegal when israel used/uses weapons on killing civilians by referring to the US constition in his refences.
all this illustrates that there should be a sentence in the first intro paragraph, which shows israel breaking international and being condemned both internationally and by independent organisations aswell as the UN, whether israel denies is it or not is a matter of opinion and latter interpretation. btw you still havent answered my previous query, about how the lenabon war was not supported internationally thanks 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 00:08, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
you say and i quote "human rights abuses are not a central part of life in Israel", considering israel occupies the palestinians, and has done on a daily basis, and the fact that they have been living under occupation for 40 years, and considering the fact that israel has not stop building settlements, not stopped killing civilians, not stopped stealing land, and stopped there right of free movement, it is apart of israels central life. the palestinians are under israeli occupation, and thus the occupier has the responsibility over them, and that is written in the international laws that every country has to abide to. and i think your the one lacking covarge, as you disputed established facts. considering that most international organistations and countries have deemed there occupation illegal, it should be included in the first intro paragraph, because it is relevant and important to israel 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
im a extremist? because i rush through writing comments on wikipedia? or am i an extremist for providing sources that support my claims? you havent talked about any of the issues i raised, but youve instead spent the time correcting my grammer and spelling? why bother doing that?EDIT: so to sum up ive been called "troll" "anti-israel" and now a "extremist" "semi-literate " are these not personal attacks? i dont care any how, jus talk about the valid poaint i have raised. and the fact that it has been featured does not make this article "perfect" and beyond correctable, if i recall correctly it has been featured only this month, why was it not before? either way, i dont wana talk about that, and nor should you use that excuse to "debunk" my claims about the accuracy of this article. thank you
86.163.1.210 ( talk) 12:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
taraq, there are other issues i raised, look above and answered some of your questions, 1 month-3 months big deal, it doesnt rid my claim that it being a featured article does not mean it is perfect beyond repair and 100% accurate.thank you as foe newtman : the list keeps getting longer so its "troll" "extremist" "anti-israel" "semi-lit" and now a "child". newtman youve not discussed any of my points, but have concentrated more on insults and personal attacks. ill ask you again like i said above, givin the establised fact, that over the decades and in the recrnt history israel has been condemned with beaking international law, and commited war crimes, why is this fact not in t he first intro paragraph, this is as important, or even more important then other things mentioned. a single sentence, stating that israel has a record number of un violations (source Jewish Virtual Library), and that israel has been charged with war crimes by international human rights groups (source amensty international, clearly stated under israeli page). and please newtman, like i said before do not be patronising and abusive towards me, it is not allowed and has no place here thank you 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 03:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This article contains wording that
promotes the subject in a subjective manner without imparting real information. |
the article contains many "peacock terms", which was what my intial comment in the "bias article" heading was about. one clear example of this, like i have discussed before was the inclusion of positive issues, with the exclusion of controversial. this is damning the importance and accuracy of the article. if sentences like "The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Land of Israel, a concept central to Judaism for over three thousand years."(which i am not denying to be false) have been used, there should be thought also given to the negetivity that israel is also renowned for up till late (lebanon war, war crimes, un violations, palestinian human rights abuses, some soucres above). and other sentences like Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel is a liberal democracy[10][11] and a developed country.[12] In the region, Israel is the most progressive in terms of freedom of the press,[13] economic competition,[14] and human development.[15] which may be true, is protrayed as "showing off the subject", (and the use of the word Unlike" that i have already discussed is also an issue.) the article is factual in many regards, but lacks over information. dicussion on zionism (the national movement) and its history are relevant but not any more important then points which israel has not been seen to well. people must understand that they must be objectional, and refrain themseleves from using "peacock terms". and if you dont know what it is, here is the definition: try to avoid peacock terms that merely show off the subject of the article without imparting real information 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 16:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
--
in addtion to what i have said above, i have see many other irrelavent, or peacock sentences that have been used. under the economy section this sentence is used It has the second-largest number of startup companies in the world (after the United States) and the largest number of NASDAQ-listed companies outside North America.[152] whilst this is also factual, i find it hard to see why this was discussed and not a single mention of israel condemnations. what i was also surprised to not find , was that the article has not stated, or used the word illegal to describe israels controversial settlements and out posts.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7082629.stm http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/9499 http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/middle-east-and-north-africa/east-mediterranean/israeloccupied-territories http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4328817.stm http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=13467 http://ue.eu.int/uedocs/cms_data/docs/2004/12/22/%7B3FA161D9-6DA6-408F-85CE-20D0EC68DDFF%7D.pdf
more emphasis is given on how to sell israels image, then the actual realities. talking about how good israel is, in regards of nobel prises, culture, democracy are all well and good, but this is not a tourism guide. i would like to see less "peacock" terms being used, and more thought be given to the real issues that israel faces intenationally. including a lead out link to israels illegal settlements would be a good idea. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 16:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
why has the statement that was above the page like 30 mins ago dissapeared, with nothing bein changed? thank you 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 16:27, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
after reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_peacock_terms i trying to put that status back on the article for the reasons i have listed above 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 16:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
---
Due to the number of problems people seem to have with the lead, it makes sense to consider a compromise version. The best way to address this is to use material directly from the sources and to attribute value judgements directly to the sources being quoted.
The reasoning for this can be found here and is also summarised in this quote
"John Doe is the best baseball player" is, by itself, merely an expression of opinion. One way to make it suitable for Wikipedia is to change it into a statement about someone whose opinion it is: "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre," as long as those statements are correct and can be verified. The goal here is to attribute the opinion to some subject-matter expert, rather than to merely state it as true.
The idea is that we let the facts (and sources) speak for themselves. -- Nosfartu ( talk) 23:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
this article makes reference to internationally disputed areas as israeli land ' Israel is home to a variety of geographic features...golan ' . As these pieces of land have been identified as disupted land, advertising this land as a part of israel is inaccurate and invalid. Past pieces of disupted of land have not be allocted to countries before the dispute has be resolved and seeing this has not, hence it having a status of disputed . and considering the syrians claim this land as theres, whilst the future palestinian state which could include east jersualam and other pieces of land it is inappropriate to advertise these lands as part of israel soverienty. it leaves the reader mis-led, and poorly informed. 86.163.1.210 ( talk) 00:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Israel is the sovereign power in the Golan Heights. the wikipedia definition is " A sovereign is the supreme lawmaking authority, subject to no other". The fact that the area is disputed is irrelevant (in fact all of Israel is disputed). So long as Israel is the final arbiter of what happens there, Israel is sovereign. All citizens of the Golan are entitled to Israeli citizenship. There are no Palestinians there as it was conquered from Syria in 1967. The Arab population were evacuated by the Syrians in 1967. The population that remained are Druze. Some of whom, possibly many, (I have no figures) have taken Israeli ctizenship. Perhaps if you stopped reading the British press you would be better informed. Telaviv1 ( talk) 12:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I support the other anon above me, I find it a bit of a worrying thing that this article got FA status, partly because Its so constantly disputed and POV that there must be someone who pulled the strings with their own agenda. The fact remains that this article avoids the question of what Israel has rights to and what it dosent, and where eidtors on this talk page discuss this they nearly always refer to the ancient age of Israel. Israel as it stands today bears not much relationship (or at least shouldnt) to that of Judah several thousands years pior, and Im not intrested in hearing quasi-religious arugments from the many eager Israeli eidtors here. The point I am making is that Israel terrotories ARE disputed both internationally and internally. Dont try and catch me with the 'All of Israel is disputed' tagline, Israel may be disputed by some, but Israel has a governement which holds power over land and people, however even the Israeli govenerment has not stated what its final claims to its borders are, therefore the Golan heights are disputed, by Syria, by international law, and by those within Israel and the terrotories it has jurisdication over. In response to the other anon's question about why Palestinians are not given passports I can only give two awnsers, both of which might be disputed, but I cannot think of any other, That 1. Israel does not support inegration with Palestinian arabs and wishes to maintian a kind of ethocracy (a more disputed option), 2. (My own personal opinion) That is if the Israelis gave Palestinians to be Israeli citizens they would be outnumbered by voters who would liekly vote for a governemnt that either sympathised with the arabs or completely opposed the Israelis. This would be democracy, but this kind of fair democracy would be contrary to why Israel was founded, which was to allow Jewish people to rule their own country. Therefore it is better for the Israeli's if they do not have a fair or inclusive democracy.
Also, Ive noticed how rude some of editors on this talkpage will be, Ive visted this page before from time... to time, not commenting often, but it hasnt supprised me (note not a personal attack just pointing something out), that Okedem you have been insulting rather a lot of people, I can collect some examples from the archives if you want, but the patronising insult you wrote to one of the editors above me illustrates my point adequatly, I doubt you'll consider monitoring yourself for rude personal attacks, but I doubt equallly a complaint will come to anything, neither is it for me to complain if another editor has been attacked. As I dont currently have an account, and the editor above me is also using an IP, I dont think there are many options anyway.
Lastly, regarding what the editor said about this page being mainly edited seemingly by Israelis or just pro-Israelis, it seems a little unfair how many so called 'consensus' have came around by having pro-Israeli editors dissuade others from maing legitimate suggestions for the improvement of this article. I do not aoubt there may be plenty of anti-semites and wreckers having a go at this article, but personally I seem to feel all legitimate suggestions are opposed along with the illigitimate ones, and that because there seem to be so many Israeli editors, the consensus here are forced in a way (by people gangin up together). At any one time it seems ufortunate that there is usually only one or two editors who are in opposition to the current situation in Israel, against many Israeli editors who are in favour of it, with the Israeli-POV eidtors ranging from the helpful and legitimate, to the naive and/or extreme. 172.213.64.230 ( talk) 03:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Okedem if your really that bothered about the anon's comments, you could consider 1. Ignoring them 2. asking someone else to deal with them 3. Not insulting the anon in a way which is libel to start a fight.
172.213.64.230 (
talk)
04:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Just created a new account as I couldnt find the password to my old one. I am the IP of the last comment. Anti-BS Squad ( talk) 05:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)