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Is there nothing else besides war between neighboring states in the past 50 years? I am sure that Israeli history would be more interesting than simply a bomb here and an attack there.
How can Israel be called a democracy when the Israeli government itself states that Israel is a Jewish state for the Jewish people. Israel's ambassador to the UN repeated the same sentiments recently in an interview. Furthermore, there are countless laws in place favoring Jews over other members of society (e.g. Christians and Muslims).
Israel can't be described as a democracy for several reasons: Any Jew in any country can move to Israel and immediately receive citizenship and financial subsidies. Christians and Muslims can't do so despite having family and relatives in Israel proper. I have heard the argument that since there are Arab MPs in the Knesset it is a slam dunk case. Well, that's not good enough. That does not constitute a democracy by any stretch of the imagination. Unless of course, some would like to argue that Israel IS a democracy when compared to other states in the Middle East. Well, if that’s the case, then I must warn you that Iran and Pakistan are competing for that title.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- The classification of a country as a democracy is primarily related to the rights and freedoms of the people who inhabit it, and does not describe its immigration policy. Israel's immigration policy may be to your liking or it may not, but no matter what your opinion might be on that subject, it doesn't change the nature of Israel as the only free democratic society in the Middle East (...and yes, for those who legally live within its borders).
Most of the world's major free democracies reserve the right to choose those who will be permitted to immigrate into its borders. For example, the United States, Britain, Ireland, Switzerland, New Zealand, Australia, and Japan, (to mention just a few examples) have some of the most restrictive and selective immigration policies that favor some groups of people over others. This is also true of Israel.
- Ehad Ha'am, May 28, 2007
--- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Note that the following information is from a book by Professor David Kretchmer of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. The book is titled: “The Legal Status of Israeli Arabs”.
Israel’s declaration of independence states that Israel was created as a home for the Jewish people, first and foremost. The declaration puts emphasis on the Jewish identity rather than the political structure of a democracy. From that period onwards, Israel’s laws have relied heavily on this declaration. In article 7A of the Israeli statute law it states that the Knesset prohibits the participation in the elections to the Knesset any party that “Rejects Israel as a state for the Jewish people” or those that “Reject the democratic nature of the state.”
In 1980 the Israeli Supreme Court passed a law stating that in the event that an Israeli court was unable to reach a decision based on legal precedence or comparison they should refer to the heritage of the nation of Israel (i.e. Jewish history)
Another law, which dates back to 1980, restricts legal marriages to Jews only. In other words, a Jewish man or woman can not marry a non-Jew and enjoy the recognition of the state as a legal and valid marriage.
The state flag of Israel has its basis in a 1948 law that borrows its design from the “Talit” bearing the Star of David. The same applies to the Menorah which is a religious Jewish symbol used as the state’s seal. The same goes for the national anthem, "Hatikvah”.
State owned lands can not be sold to non-Jews. 19% of state owned land is managed and administered by the National Jewish Fund whose mission statement includes a clause prohibiting the sale of land to non-Jews.
The following is merely a sample of discrimination relating to land distribution and ownership:
During the 50s and the 60s, lands owned by non-Jews where confiscated to build what later became “Natsrat Elite” (Upper Nazareth) and “Karmiel”. Non-Jews (Arabs) where prohibited from purchasing houses in these two cities. In 1976 alone, the Israeli government confiscated 1500 acres of Non-Jewish owned land to “Develop the Galilee”.
In 1969 and 1977 two state laws where passed in regards to searches and civilian aviation under which security officials can search anyone they please if they are regarded as a threat to national security. And, in fact, based on documented cases Israeli Arabs (i.e. Non-Jews) are stopped and searched prior to boarding an airplane while their Jewish counterparts are not subject to the same scrutiny. In essence, Non-Jews are treated as a national security threat.
Jewish schools run by the government (i.e. public schools) are granted higher budgets than those in non-Jewish towns and cities. In addition, every school in the non-Jewish sector has to get approval from the Ministry of Education prior to employing a non-Jew as a teacher. Non-Jewish teachers are subject to a “security clearance”, that is to say that if they are politically active that they will not be granted permission to teach. -- Anonymous 00:48, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
By definition, a democracy should treat all its citizens equally and be a government by the people. Can you say the same about Israel?
1. "Go read some philosophy book". I don't appreciate the condescending tone.
2. "No, not really. You misunderstand the book, or the book is badly written (or translated)".
Actually, that's hardly the case. The book is written by a well respected professor of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. The book is written in Hebrew, my native language. I don't think I misunderstood it. Can you cite a source that backs up your argument? Why is it when a baby is born to a Jewish mother he is immediately registered in the Ministry of Interior as a Jew? When a baby is born to a Christian or Muslim mother, they usually ask the mother as to the baby’s religion.
3. "Security - Since Israel is under serious terrorist threats and attacks, some measures were needed. Are those measures being abused by some? Maybe. Is that governmental discrimination - not at all."
Those measures are a POLICY that no one within the government is willing to address or discuss. There are documented cases of non-Jews facing discrimination at airports. It's a pattern and a trend that indicates a policy. Besides, airport security is made up of government employees, are they not? The Shin Bet agents who supervise these employees are government employees, are they not?
4. "Airplanes - the security staff make their own calls, and sometimes they're wrong.”
The security staff is sometimes wrong? Must you downplay these discriminatory practices? (See #3)
"But bear this in mind - no Jews go on planes and abduct them or blow them up. Some Muslims do."
So you're saying that it's ok for Israel to profile non-Jews simply because of the political situation? We're discussing a principle here, the principle of democracy and equality, not "well, considering the political climate we live in.....". You can't have your cake and eat it. Israel can either be a democracy, or not.
Also, you said, "some Muslims do". What about those cases of Christian Arabs facing the same discrimination as their Muslim counterparts? I would say the discrimination is against non-Jews, not just those who "pose a threat", as Israeli government pundits would put it.
6. You did not respond to the "teachers and budgets" part in my previous post. -- Anonymous
Well getting tired of writing in the section about nuclear weps I put on the talkpage I think it would be some use to show how much of a 'liberal democracy' and how much 'human development' has taken place in Israel by referring to the case of Mordechai Vanunu, of course Okedem from what I can tell your Israeli (just a guess) so youll probably view him as some type of spy or traitor, and then reply to this in a thoroughly patronising manor explaining how this happens in places such as the UK and America and so its perfectly kosher. Well ive got two preliminary awnsers to these arguments even before I start saying what im going to say. Number one: if it happens in the west it dosent mean its without contraversy, we have disputes over how to treat spies and the like (though excluding America's Guatanamo bay we have no where near as bad a record as Sin Bet or Mossad, and I come from the UK so for me at least guatanamo doesn't count). Im not particularily anti-Israel, just pro-human rights and I believe both the west and israel have violated human rights, although in the west it is generally less accepted by the public because of the less aparant nationlism, and so these issues are confronted, although in this article they are not generally mentioned at all. Now onto the real argument taking the treatment of Mordechai Vanunu who was recently released from life imprisonment and has had varying difficulty functioning politically in Israel (both before the imprisonment and after). Now you may say that Israel could legally abduct Mordechai from another country because he was a whistleblower, but technically they have no legal right to do so. This is because international law generally over-runs national law, and despite Israel not signing the nuclear proliferation treaty (which incidentally on the case of human development ALL the Arab nations have signed) even in secret they have no right to abduct a citizen from another country, which they have done. The fact that Mordechai released an Israeli secret places him squarely illegal in Israel, though the fact Israel was technically illegally producing nuclear weapons is by far the worse crime internationally and in fact the legality of holding Mordechai may well be void internationally because instead of commiting a crime he was actually denouncing a crime. ]
His treatment, as far as Europe, and many other bodies, including to varying degrees the UN (not least because it breaks several UN human rights laws) are concerned is unacceptable and illegal. In fact it is the kind of thing a 'liberal' democracy should not be capable of, and I can give you several human rights violations if you wish them and quote many a thing Vanunu has said and many journalists, and even Israeli Mossad agents have said regarding him. For more information check the wikipedia article on him, and this should negate the whole notion of human development and 'liberal democracy' in israel. If you want me to argue my point further with more information I shall but to be honest the article on him says it all. Oh and yes of course regarding the lack of prejudice aagainst minorities this is something (I mentioned below as well) which may pose intrest to you, stated by a Mossad agent why they didnt kill Vanunu (mossad effectively being under direct control of the government) 'Jews dont kill other Jews'.
I was trying to direct someone else to a series of maps depicting Israel's changing borders -- either claimed or actually enforced -- and found nothing here, really, except by wading through the WikiAtlas collection. I'm taking about 1948 vs. 1967 vs. 1995, etc. I don't know whether it should be part of the main Israel article or a separate article linked to this one, but I'm willing to bet someone has the necessary information or visuals at their fingertips. (Hint, hint, . . .) -- Michael K. Smith 16:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not have a huge amount of Knowledge of Jewish religious history, or motives for Zionism and general return to Israel, but I think it would be good if this article explained in greater detail religious motives (if there are any) for return to Israel. Disagree with me if you feel this is sufficiently explained. I however think this should be put in a NPOV way which in my opinion considerable amounts of the article are not placed in. This would be either by showing both points of view for and against technical religious reasons for Israel. E.g. one point of view maybe that the Jewish people were displaced centuaries ago by the babalonians and that they have rights to the country, and the other point of view would be along the lines of that in Jewish texts the babalonian invasion was a punishment by G-d for disobeying Israel, and that the return to Israel would happen only with the coming of the messiah. Or possibly a secular or atheist point of view which states that Zionism is out of place in todays society. Or simply just by giving a general overview with neither point of view, which explains basic refrences to Israel in Hebrew scripts. If you feel the article explaisn this enough then disagree with me, or that the Jewish migration to Israel was non-religious and simply to avoid persecution, however since many politicians in Israel follow a religious line (for publicity reasons or otherwise) I personally belive the religious reasons shoudl be explained.-S.M
Of the first part of this sentence:
Though its exact borders remain undefined [1] it is located between Lebanon to the north, Syria and Jordan to the east, and Egypt to the south-west. [1] Tiamut 14:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I realize this topic is a sensitive one for you, but you should be able to put aside your nationalistic sentiments and focus on the facts. And if I haven't added this information to the Syria and Lebanon articles yet, its because I haven't yet looked at them. I am a member of the Palestine and Israel Wikiprojects not those of Syria and Lebanon. Here are more reliable sources discussing the ambiguity in Israel's border situation:
4) ...in a country where politics revolve over terror attacks and undefined borders
So as you can see, the issue of Israel's borders and the ambiguity surrounding where exactly they lay is an important and relevant issue. I believe my edit alludes to this without getting heavily into the specifics, which are better discussed in the body. However, for the introduction to imply that there are borders, when in fact, Israel has never declared its borders, is totally misleading and unencyclopedic to boot. Tiamut 10:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Can you read Okedem? Nowhere in the articles I cited does it say that Israel's current borders are defined. That's what you need to support your claim that Israel does indeed have defined borders which is what you formulation implies ("It borders Lebanon here and Syria there, etc., etc.) You are purposely misleading the reader by ignoring the evidence in front of your eyes. The other sources I gave you state clearly that there are no "final borders". If the borders are not final, then they are not currently defined. Two of the sources explicitly support the idea that they fully undefined, one actually using that exact term and the other the more diplomatic "spatially ambiguous" (i.e. undefined). Further, since you seem to be having difficulty understanding, there are these sources:
Israel is the only country in the world with undeclared borders.
Israel is the only country in the world that has never declared or demarcated its borders.
These actually up the ante a bit, moving past undefined to undeclared altogether. Now, I expect that there will be a note reflecting this reality in the introduction. After all, the intro currently claims its the only country in the Middle East that is democracy, why not state the other fact about Israel in relation to other countries. It is the only one never to declare or demarcate its borders. i.e. they remain undefined. I think my edit was very diplomatic actually considering what the situation actually is. Tiamut 13:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Let's review once again:
and something new to consider, since you claim these are somehow unreliable sources:
Now how would you like to add this information to the article. Do you prefer my formulation? Though its exact borders remain undefined, [3] it is located between Lebanon to the north, Syria and Jordan to the east, and Egypt to the south-west. [3]
or do you have another formulation in mind? And Okedem, if you don't know what a border is, how can you possibly claim know that Israel's are defined? Tiamut 15:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, it looks like we need a RfC then. I have provided you with a number of reliable sources that state that Israel's borders are undefined and undeclared. You have failed to provide even one that says that they are defined and where they are located. I don't think the six words that I want to add to the introduction ("Though its borders remain undefined") are so offensive that they warrant such resistance, particularly in the face of anywhere between 5 to 10 reliable sources stating that this is the case. You do not seem to want to abide by WP:NPOV which states that all significant viewpoints must be represented. You have not even offered a compromise formulation or made a gesture to incorporate this information into the body of the article. I'd say that the view of those cited here that Israel's borders are undefined or undeclared is significant enough to warrant inclusion in this article. Perhaps others will agree, perhaps not. We'll just have to wait and find out. Tiamut 16:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm new to wikipedia and don't have my own account yet, but I agree with both the points put forward above me, Israel, from whatever point of view of looking at it, (and I am definetly no pro-Israel type) borders the countries Okedem put forward, even if the terriotory which is not considered legal is removed from the equation.There is no point in disagreeing with this because the only way to change what countries Israel borders would be to create some new ones (out of the occupied terriotories) or to move Israel. On the other hand Tiamut adresses a valid issue, it is not really acceptable just to write as though the borders are defined, universally accepted, and non fluctuating. The truth is, being represented by the U.N. most countries disagree with the borders currently set by Israel, although Okedem what you say about bodering Syria, Lebanon etc is all true, what YOU seem to evade is the question of the actuall positioning oof the borders, whether Israel borders Syria closer to, or further away from Israel proper. The truth is these borders are undefined, and the way the article is written it seems these are universally accepted and permanent borders, and that the borders of the occupied areas are the borders of Israel. This may or may not be on purpose, but nevertheless I think it is important that something like Tiamut's sentence is put in to show, at least, Israel's true borders are disputed and not accepted by some, weather they are rightly disputed is a matter of opinion but it is not a matter of opinion that they ARE disputed, and by standing in the way of using that simple sentence Okedem you seem to be deliberately obstructive, but maybe you are not.
Basically in a summary what I'm saying is Okedem writes the truth, though not the whole truth, and by not writing all points of view it ould give someone who knows nothing about these borders misleading information about Israel and its legality of borders in international law. Obviously this is an exagerration and the occupied territories themselves are not considered countires (though their ownership is disputed) but on a bigger scale it my be a bit like saying Russia is to the east of America India is to the West, therefore implying to some degree America directly borders Russia and India without any counter argument. I dont think there should be any problem with adding a bit more information in, even Okedem if you don;t believe it is neccessary it cannot do any harm to the article.
... etc, etc. though whether the borders of the territory Israel controls are Israel's borders, or The borders recognised by the UN are Israel;s borders is currently the subject of much dispute.
historically, "border" refers to the border of the area(s) controlled by a state. 1. the borders of the areas the state Israel controls are well defined. 2. all those areas are part of the land of Israel. 3. all those areas were acquired in a defensive war, so according to international law Israel has legal right to them. all this means that Okedems wording of this specific phrase is correct. it doesn't matter what people think the borders of the state of Israel should be, it matters what they actually are. thinking something other than reality doesn't make reality change to match your opinion. if you think the borders are other than they actually are, it doesn't make them so. if you think I'm an idiot, that still doesn't mean my IQ is low. and if it is low then it's low regardless of your opinion. -Shyisc 18:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The dispute is over whether or not to include this sentence in the introduction of the Israel article: Though its exact borders remain undefined, it is located between Lebanon to the north, Syria and Jordan to the east, and Egypt to the south-west. Currently, the article reads: It borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the south-west. [4] A number of sources have been provided by one editor to support the claim that Israel’s borders are undefined and/or undeclared . Examples of these sources include: [5], [6] [7] [8] [9]. Two editors reject the relevance and/or reliability of those sources. Your comments would be appreciated. For those who require more information, review the section above the RfC where the discussion began here: [10].17:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that in order to resolve this dispute, we need to stop evading each other's concerns. I think the easiest way to do this is to ask the other side a few relevant direct questions to which they'd have to answer in order for their argument to have more weight. Here are my questions for Tiamut:
Tiamut (and anyone else on Tiamut's side of the argument): I'd appreciate if you answered these questions point by point. Feel free to ask okedem or myself whatever relevant questions you have in mind. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 22:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
What's interesting here is that the way that Wikipedia policy works is that the editor inserting material needs to provide a reliable source to back up their edit. I have provided over 5, while Okedem and yourself and have provided a grand total of zero to support your position. But to humor you, I have answered your questions above anyway. Tiamut 22:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The first source you provided says nothing about the border between Egypt and Israel being defined and internationally recognized. Israel wasn't around in WWI, so it had nothing to do with any border definitions that were made at that time and we are in 2007 right now.
The second source you provided only proves the point that Israel's borders remain undefined. IT says clearly, ""This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of the territory."
The third and fourth sources state that the border with Lebanon is an armistice line and not an international border.
Finally, I did read the question. The only relevant response was the question I gave you. It matters not that there is a border between Syria and Israel. What matters is whether por not is is clearly defined and declared. the sources I have provided you with insist that Israel's borders are neither defined nor declared. And three of the four sources you have provided me with support that position. Tiamut 22:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I would definitely avoid the use of "undefined"; Israel's borders have been defined by the UN, by Israel itself, and surely by numerous other instances. The definitions are conflicting, however. What about saying that some of its borders are disputed? This is surely a clearer representation of the situation.
Whether it borders on the West Bank territory or not is once again a disputed situation. Why not use wording that makes the situation's ambiguity clear: "Israel borders Lebanon to the North, Syria to the North-east, and Egypt to the South. To the West, it has occupied the territory of the West Bank up to the Jordan River, bordering Lebanon." Hgilbert 13:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Border, from the Oxford American Dictionary: "verb [ trans. ] form an edge along or beside (something) : a pool bordered by palm trees. • (of a country or area) be adjacent to (another country or area) : regions bordering Azerbaijan | [ intrans. ] the mountains bordering on Afghanistan."
In other words, border as a verb makes no statement about legal status of an international border. However any border disputes are resolved, Israel always has and always (to whatever extent we can predict the future) border the Mediterranean to its west, Lebanon to its north, Syria to its northeast, Jordan to its east, and Egypt to its southwest. Israel also borders the West Bank to its east, as well, whether or not it's a sovereign territory; there is a recognized boundary, though not a border, demarcating the West Bank. Which also means that it borders Gaza to the southwest. I just don't understand how any of this can be controversial. It's worth mentioning somewhere else that the borders are disputed or not official or whatever, but the fact of where Israel is is not disputed, right? GUSwim 03:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The Culture of Israel section is very much lacking in sources, even in the main articles it links to, with the exception of the Education sub-section. The Zionism and Immigration, Economy, Judiciary, and Military sections also lack sources, as do the section 1950s and 1960s and 1970s.
There are a lack of sources for controversial claims:
"In a massacre in 1929, 133 Jews, including 67 in Hebron were killed and 116 Arabs were killed in the riots."
"Many Arabs, opposed to the Balfour Declaration, the mandate, and the Jewish National Home, instigated riots and pogroms against Jews in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jaffa, and Haifa. As a result of the 1921 Arab attacks, the Haganah was formed to protect Jewish settlements."
Further, sources cited do not fully support the formulations made:
"Israel is the only country in the Middle East considered to be a liberal democracy, having a broad array of political rights and civil liberties present.[5][6]"
There is still much unresolved controversy surrounding the designation of Jerusalem as a capital, and whether Israel is the "only liberal democracy in the Middle East", among other issues.
I have passed this article as GA. It is a very well written article and conforms to all guidelines at WP:GA. I might suggest cleaning up the external links ( WP:EL), otherwise, this page has been listed as a Good Article!-- TREYWiki 00:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I think there should be more mention of the scandal (in the past possibly) involving Israel's nuclear weapons and Nuclear Physicist Mordechai Vanunu who was placed in life imprisonment and how he was, illegally in international law by any strech of the imagination, drugged and abducted by the Mossad because he spoke to the British Sunday times confirming an Israeli nuclear program (as he claimed on moral grounds). He was abducted by Mossad for denouncing an illegal weapons program (as the UN has not allowed it, although refrains from checking finally on it) and Israel having no legal right to charge him whilst he was Italy, however he did break a contract of no dislosure in Israeli law. He was drugged by a woman he came to trust, who turned out to be a Mossad agent, and was in life imprisonment until resently living a life with numerous restrictions on his freedom and liberty of speech (which some view as illegal, although sympathy is often limited for him in Israel). Im not sure about this but I think there are rumerous that some of this harsh treatment was from his conversion from Judaism to christianity, or at least his reason for exposing the program may have been due to this. Appratnyl however one Mossad seniour agent claimed they didnt grant execution for him because "Jews don't do that to other Jews". I understand this may have been slightly POV, but to be honest everything ive said is true I think, and to neglect the scandal in the nuclear weps section maybe slightly selective as it practically verifies Israel's nuclear weapons ability and is illegal according to international law. Im no expert on this guy, so if someone who knew more about him were to put something in I think that would be great, I see no reason why he should not be mentioned in the article at all, as it was a fairly major incident, but I understand there maybe more than one POV on this and possibly any article on him himself maybe sufficient. Its also possible thsi was talked about in one of the archives in which case im sorry to reopen any old wounds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Disabled Illuminati ( talk • contribs)
Yes, I see your point, I got a little carried away at this isnt the place for political discussion, however I don't think my first point was irrelavant since the Israeli nuclear weps section is tiny anyway and the imprisonment of Vanunu pretty much confirms Israeli nuclear capability whilst the article leaves it in considerbale ambiguity. Also, Im not trying to say that other people are ignorant or anything of the sort, but I dont think the idea that 'everyone knows about Vanunu' is a valid one as this dosen;t stop information that supposedly 'everyone' knows being entered which is quite considerably pro-Israel and I don't think it is wikipedia's job to assume 'everyone' knows something, and at least for younger people like me I doubt that most people know about him (maybe arrogance? However I simply say this because I might have more easy acess to this informatio, and anyway I didnt find this out until recently, although my personal circumstances dont rely count). I think that because Vanunu really introduced a lot fo the controversy involving nuclear weapons in Israel it is neccessary to mention how this controversy came about, if only in a sentence.
Oh and I would jut like to ask if its okay, since I got carried away emotionally and let my own POV get over entagled in what I said can I please remove some of it? just for the sake of keeping the talk page relevant.
Responding to the comment below I put some irrelvant quite opinionated stuff in where im writing now, which I removed as it was written more in emotion and was not very helpful to the article.
This was placed in the "mislabeled" section above. Gracenotes T § 17:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
As per the GA listing comment - the suggestion was to tidy up the list of external links as I did. -- Flymeoutofhere 19:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
wikipedia's Hezbullah article states that Hezbullah and Israel had both been accused of War crimes by amnesty international cited with http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde020252006. However the word war crimes isn't even mentioned in the article. Kadhumia flo 20:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
An alternative to military service in Israel is national service in approved non-profit organizations. National service earns you the same benefits as military service, and recently a mostly arab and haredi youth targeting organization was approved, which is expected to improve arab volunteer participation. This would lessen the perceived inequality in benefits for arab and jewish sectors because the other is more probable to have gone through military service. Because of this I think national service should be mentioned in the article. See http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/865822.html Hyvatti 06:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Bahrain and Qatar are both democracies, and although they are ruled in part with islamic intrests in mind (as Israel is with MAINLY Jewish intrests in mind) they are both fairly liberal, at least liberal enough for 'only liberal democracy' to be disputed. If you were to argue back and say that they are not liberal, then you should also take the 'liberal' part ut of 'Israel ia the only liberal democracy' as although the religion plays a part in determing customs (as it does in most western coutiries, and to a large extent in Israel) relgious law (Shariah law?) does not dictate policy, and they are fairly liberal to other religions, and both men and women have the right to vote. Also Turkey IS a democracy (which is not ruled by islamic intrests, the reason for so many protests atm) its 'liberal factor' may be disputed, but as a highly ignorant and stupid westerner (who probably is directed to the 'best' parts of the country) I can say its pretty dam liberal, and has come on a lot in recent years, although is slightly repressive of the Kurdish and Armenian minorities (but so is Israel, to a degree, in its behaviour to the arab minority). If Moroco can be considered to be in the middle east thios is a fourth country which is fairly liberal and a democracy (although it technically is more of a constitutional monarchy, like Bahrain, and the UK). Im not saying that you have to change anything except by implying that 'Israel is the ONLY liberal democracy in the region' either change that or take away the liberal, because it is not really any more liberal than Turkey and it is definetly no more liberal than Qatar or Bahrain, which are both democracies. If you take away the liberal however you will be left with 'Issrael is the onyl democracy' which is factually incorrect anyway. I think its either that or change it to 'Israel is a liberal democracy' which is fair and true (to a generally western opinon). I think refering to a country (especially one which advocates being a state solely for one of the races present) as liberal is not helpful, as being lberal is (within reason) a matter of opinon and there are countries in the middle east that by some could be considered both more liberal and less liberal than Israel, jsut defining soemthing as 'liberal' seems a bit POV as liberal can be defined by ever changing criterion.
They both are, read the wikipedia articles on both, I did my wikipedia reasearch (the worst kind), they are constitutional monarchies like the UK. How can women be granted the right to vote when they are lead solely by a monarch? All the power is invested in the parliament. Mental Note 18:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Israel in your, and the freedom house's opinions, may be a 'liberal and free democracy' but there is no source that you have which says (and even if there was one, it could not factually state anything about the other countries, it would only present its opinion of a liberal democracy) that every other country in the middle east is not a liberal democracy. Whether you believe other countries are liberal democracies or not is a matter of opinion, but in an article about Israel, and solely Israel, it is simply the writers opinion whether other countries in the region are 'liberal democracies'. It is fair to say, with the freedom house source (quite biased btw, but acceptable I guess), that Israel is a liberal democracy (although I believe, personally, this is open to some debate, but thats not the point im trying to make), it is not fair to say, without any definition of a 'liberal democracy' given, that no other country is a liberal democracy.
We all know that there are several democracies in the middle east, the writer of this article does not have the right to judge them as liberal or not, as that is solely his opinion, the only way that the writer could say this is by stating the definition of a 'liberal democracy' then stating why each other country in the middle east is not a liberal democracy, and why Israel qualifies better for this status, as this is completly off topic anyway, there is no point in doing this, although I doubt even if there was the writer could find a reason why Israel is more liberal than Turkey (and Bahrain, which is basically completly democratic, and Qatar as well I think, although personally Okedem I think, although it is not my place I know, that you are judging Qatar and Bahrai as undemocratic just so you can say that Israel is the ONLY liberal democracy). Comments about other countries being liberal democracies or undemocratic should be confined really to those country's pages. I just dont like the way that the writer of this article seems to want to point score against other middle eastern countries, or at least express some nationlistic pride, by implying there are no other liberal democracies in the middle east, which is open to debate as we have seen on this talk page, and therfore should not be presented as certified fact.
Apart from the reasons I've given you, the actual comment 'the ONLY liberal democracy' seems to be some kind of boast or other, probably made by some Israeli proud of his/her nation (which he/she has every right to be if he/she wishes, but not on wikipedia articles). I see nothign wrong or provocative about saying 'Israel is a liberal Democracy' full stop, there is no need to comment about the democratic/undemocratic status of othe rcountries in the middle east. I also think th same is true to a certain extent with the bit about human development, now that may be relevant, but it shouldn't be put in the first part of the article like its trying to prove something or state 'Israel is the best', that should be included in its own section, or demographics possibly.
172.142.152.117 20:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh im sorry then =P, I guessed wrong It just seemed that way, the way its been left though seems to me to be some kind of pro-Israel boast even if thats not the intention. I may be the only one who thinks that, who knows, but I just dont think tis really relevant to highlight things that many people would consider better than other countires (although obviously you wouldnt) about Israel in the first paragraph. This may be more relevant in the section on politics, although even then I dont think we need to compare Israels system with other coutryies, especially since the other countries are generally arabic, and so have cultural differences and are difficult to compare to Israel's system of government (although I maintain many of them are 'liberal democracies' at least from many peoples point of view). Thats just my opinion and sorry for any undue criticism, but It probably looks that way to me because whoevers been editing this article has kept all the good and taken away all the bad and leaves this sentence quite inbalanced, as as I say I would assume many people view liberal democracies as a 'good' thing, this is mainly because of the use of the word 'liberal' which means free as far as I know, and I personally think it is a matter of opinion whether other countries in the middle east are 'free' or not dependign on what your defenition of 'free' is. 172.142.152.117 20:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it might be better to say something like 'Israel has the only western style liberal democracy in the middle east' becuase it is both true and I dont think there can be many objections on either side to that, perhaps some Israeli 'fend for themselves with 1/3rd of foreign aid, nationalists' may object, but I think its a fair compromise. I mena Im just a bit indignant because of the referance to liberal, I mean how liberal can a country be where there are so many parties that advocate pro-Jewish lines (to a possibly racist extent, although the same is not permitted the other way round) but there are seemingly none which represent both arab and Jewish intrests. That means in practice only the 80% Jewish pop need to bother voting because the other 20% of the other Israelis are never going to get anywhere in terms of fair representaion, which is not that liberal in my opinion (but thats just my opinion). I accept that Israel is a liberal democracy within reason, I just dont accept that this 'within reason' excludes all other countries in the middle east. 172.142.152.117 21:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Yer sure, I just dont want it to seem like Israel is neccessarily 'better' (in at least the opinion of many in the west), but Im not so troubled with it now, I was more concerned with the way it appeared to me (wrongly) to be written. Now I understand you wernt trying to prove anything by writing it Im not so bothered, though I still think it should be changed as it may not just be me that thinks that (although it might be I guess), and it might be interpreted as some pro-Israel over arab counties, opinon.
As El C has suggested above, it is equally noteworthy that Israel is holding the West Bank under military rule. There should be some NPOV and well-sourced way of phrasing this.-- Doron 04:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
My opinion here - first of all, since Freedom House rates all of the countries in the world, I can definitely say that using their data, Israel is the only liberal democracy in the middle east (Only one with a "Free" rating, which, according to them, means liberal democracy).
Freedom House doesn't include Turkey in the middle east section, but in Western Europe, for some reason. That wouldn't have changed anything, though, as Turkey only has a "Partly Free" rating.
Bahrain has a rating of "Partly Free" (5/5), and Qatar "Not Free" (6/5). I truly don't understand how anyone can call these countries liberal democracies, or even democracies. They're not. They're monarchies with a weak parliament.
Using the criteria of a Liberal democracy, Israel is one, despite some problems regarding treatment of the Arab minority (and many western countries have similar problems). Having a minority doesn't mean a country isn't a liberal democracy. Even the anon's claim about "there are so many parties that advocate pro-Jewish lines (to a possibly racist extent, although the same is not permitted the other way round) but there are seemingly none which represent both arab and Jewish intrests. That means in practice only the 80% Jewish pop need to bother voting because the other 20% of the other Israelis are never going to get anywhere in terms of fair representaion" is false. The only time a party was disallowed from running was when the ultra-right-wing Jewish party Kach was outlawed. If you read the platforms of the current Israeli Arab parties, you'll see they're not very tame. There are parties that represent both group's interests, like Meretz, or Haavoda (which currently has 2 Arab MPs, out of 19 total). That's not even a relevant point, and has nothing to do with liberalism or democracy.
HOWEVER - I never even wanted the "only liberal democracy" thing. I opposed it, in fact. I don't think it's relevant. Israel is a liberal democracy, regardless of its fascist neighbors. okedem 13:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Okay I get it now, I wont argue that Israel isn't a liberal democracy (even though I still think that can be aruged with, I just dont have the energy or sources to go on a one man mission), I just dont like the term 'only' because it seems to be dragging other countries into the equation and deliberately comparing them with Israel in an unfavorable way, I think Israel is a liberal democracy, is fine (although I think 'Israel is a western styled liberal democracy' may be better, though this is just my opinion).
Anyway fascist enighbours seems a little extreme =P, Its off-topic I know and im not going to argue it out, but that seems a bit, well I dunno, shaky as many would view Israel's pro-Zionist policiies as slightly fascist, Actually I dont 'fascist' is the correct term for any of th governments around Israel (although undemocratic and oppressive may be) as lebanon is more weak than fascist, Syria is socialist and Egypt is just big on religion.
(there was an irrelevent discussion here, that can now be found on my talk page. I put this message here because I don't know what to do with the following posts. Shyisc 21:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC))
Mind the spelling A dime a dozen 19:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh btw if your wondering about the changes form account to IP etc its simply because Im new to wikipedia and I also forgot my password to my above account, ill be more careful lol. A dime a dozen 19:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is not based on any published source, and seems to be nothing but the personal opinion of its participants, and therefore cannot be used in this article. The talk page is meant for discussions about how to improve the article, so I would kindly ask you to take this discussion to your user talk page. Thank you.-- Doron 19:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
This is a really minor thing but, though culturally European, Cyprus is a liberal democracy that is often defined as part of the Middle East geographically at least. Other than that I do agree the discussion is largly irrelevent in terms of improving the artical. Bored college student 00:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed two Hebrew sources that do not refer to what they are supposed to refer to:
Zeq, regarding the second source which you have brought back -- it is in the wrong context. The paragraph refers to 1991, whereas the claim was made regarding the 2002 conflict. Please remove it.-- Doron 21:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
"...and being the only country in the world to currently apply an appartheid system."
Really? Appartheid is a very loaded word(and almost always refers to South African appartheid). Could someone present an argument for this?
Israel does not have a "coat of arms" - it has an "emblem." The infobox needs correcting (and don't anyone tell me that this is Wiki style. It is not appropriate here).-- Gilabrand 10:39, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
This page has not commented on Israels illegal occupation of Palestine. I think there should be a sub heading which provides a link to the relavent pages. Also there is not a single mention of UN resolutions broken my Israel, (a record number btw) I also think that there should be a links, under sepearate headings about independent organsations such as Amnesty International, who have labelled the Israeli treatment of Palestinians as a 'War crime', again i dont think there should be much said about this on this page, but there should links provided to the other wiki's. This page is looking very bias, one sided, and from the looks of it, there are Israelis preventing people from writing anything which sights Israel in the bad light. 86.138.100.241 15:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Okay, here's a start:
-- GUSwim 22:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I disagree, an article about Israel that includes Israeli music should have room for a concise paragraph dealing with one of the most important political topics in Israel. As for the phrasing proposed by GUSwim, I have two minor concerns: (a) Saying that East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights were annexed is very inaccurate, for several reasons. In order to avoid this issue (which is covered in the respective articles), we can just say they were de facto annexed. (b) As Benjil correctly noted above, the de facto annexation of East Jerusalem took place in 1967, not 1980.-- Doron 00:23, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
What's wrong with East Jerusalem has been under Israeli civil law, jurisdiction and administration since 1967[42] and the Golan Heights since 1981, though they have not been formally annexed. All the topics mentioned here are already included. Yet another section, when there are dozens of subarticles containing every type of synthesis imaginable, seems to fall prey to the trend where every entry on this topic repeats the same information about the AIC again and again. The point of separate entries is in order to allow us to focus on music, sport, etc. Again, I'm not saying the information shouldn't be mentioned, but that since it already appears, it shouldn't be mentioned again. Tewfik Talk 02:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me if I'm being repetitive, but there are without exaggeration hundreds of pages on WP dealing with every aspect of the Arab-Israeli conflict etc., and creating yet another summary seems like the wrong direction, especially when this entry has direct links to so many of those pages already. I think it is reasonable to expect that people will follow those links, rather than create another address to maintain... Cheers, Tewfik Talk 18:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
well hang TEWFIK, is a summary about'Jewish underground groups' is given, why cant there also be a summary about the occupation, its legality may be included if needed.
86.132.119.135
00:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
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TEWFIK, you cant really be serious when you say ' hundreds. of pages on WP dealing with every aspect of the Arab-Israeli conflict etc., and creating yet another summary seems like the wrong direction '
it may be true that there are hundred of WP dealing with the conflict, but what better page to include the information then on a page that is directed related to the topic. I cant believe your suggestion of leaving the information out is that it has been included 'hundred' of times on other pages so shouldnt be included on this one. The occupation is one of the biggest issues in the world today, and leaving out Israels role in the occupied territories is criminal! And who are you to say it is a step in the wrong direction, why should your judgement on the facts deter the general public from drawing there own opinions of the facts! Giving a brief summary about the occupation and conflict is absolutely correct, and should be included. Why are you trying to hide the facts! Plus there are so many less important issues mentioned in the page, and i find it shocking that a issue of this magnitude is not being included as it displays Israel in some sort of a 'bad light'. Furthermore this page will never be given a higher status unless such important information is put in. And I also support the views of the user that posted the previous message on 5th of July. 81.132.224.10 23:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Shimon Peres, please update the info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Regime Redirects to this page of Israel, while "Zionist Regime" has a totally different meaning than "Israel". Next to that, no info can be found om this page about the subject "Zionist Regime" (like Iran adresses colonial politics only of both Israel, USA and allies). As far as I can see at this point, that term is used primeraly for colonial politics in the Middle East where "Zionists" are involved. Some Zionists aren't jews, some Zionists aren't Israeli and many jews and jewish Israeli's don't support Zionism either, so what does that redirection here??! Can someone restore that error + provide the proper page-info for "Zionist Regime"? -Many thanks. 201.192.17.90 06:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Hey there. I recently re-added the Palestinian conflict to the introduction (after it was deleted) and felt the need to state why. First of all, it is (arguably) the most important part of Israeli politics at the moment, and certainly the one that garners the most world attention. That also has been the case for some years now, and it's absence was glaring. My goal on Wikipedia has always been to eliminate bias, and I was careful to write in a way that was neutral and did not place the blame. It links to the pages for Israel's conflict with Palestine and also Israel's conflict with its Arab neighbors generally, without going into any detail or placing any blame. Furthermore, while stating that Israel has received criticism for this (as cited) I also noted that it has received support (again, as cited). Changes were recently made to the foreign policy section of the U.S. article that similarly reflect conflicting views of U.S. foreign policy. I did not make those edits, but awhile back I made similar changes to the actual United States Foreign Policy page.
I hope this describes my edit well, and helps you to understand why I made the entry. I sincerely hope it is not deleted in the future. My own opinion on the conflict is mixed, and admitedly I'm not as well-learned in the subject as I'd like. But I certainly think it is noteworthy and important enough that it should be in the introduction. SpiderMMB 03:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, to be quite honest, I think this article suffers from a very pro-Israel bias as a result, and I think that might have the opposite effect that it is intended to have. I'm not even opposed to the preceding (now only) paragraph in the lead that lists all of Israel's developments over other countries in the area. But I think this is a huge omission that people are afraid of because it potentially portrays Israel in a negative light. That's a little too defensive, I think. I appreciate your compliment that I tried to be neutral, because I really did -- my own perspective on the conflict being rather neutral itself.
But I still think the omission is glaring and unencylopedic. This is something that has been an important part of Israel's history since its inception (recent inception, mind you--i.e. post-colonial) and I think it's omission only serves the pro-Israel bias claims that I've seen on this talk page before. By way of comparison, it would be like not mentioning the Iraq War in the introduction to George W. Bush. What is it you'd like to see in a general mention? I'll reinsert the lead without mention of the "some support, some oppose" lines, and hopefully that will be acceptable to you and others. I don't intend to push this too much, but I think you should really consider how this omission makes the article appear POV. SpiderMMB 02:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough, but I'd like to explain what I mean a little further. The "pro Israel" bias I'm speaking of mostly concerns the introduction. After a brief factual introduction, there is practically an entire paragraph that says "Israel is the only country in the region that is this...most developed country in the region in this, this, and this." Mind you, my problem isn't that good things are being said about Israel, especially when they are cited, what I mind is: 1) the introduction is so short and 2) the percentage of the introduction which that statement takes up. That is why it strikes me as pro-POV. The paragraph I added sought to change this by making mention to a controversial conflict that is an important part of Israeli policy, and to do so(as you mentioned, and I appreciate you mentioning it) to do so in a way that was as neutral as possible.
Like I said, I don't intend to push this issue but I hope that that explains my position a little better. Even if you disagree, I hope you'll at least think about it when editing in the future. Regards, SpiderMMB 02:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Shalom, I have added a POV tag into the lead. The passage
The State of Israel was created in 1948. With a diverse population currently exceeding seven million citizens of primarily Jewish background and religion, it is the world's only Jewish state. Jerusalem is the capital city and seat of government.[4] Israel is the only country in the Middle East considered to be a liberal democracy, having a broad array of political rights and civil liberties present. In addition, Israel is considered the most advanced in the region in terms of freedom of the press, business regulations,[7] economic competition, economic freedom, and overall human development.
one sided to say the least. Is it beyond the abilties of the editors of this page to make the lead more neutral and encyclopedic and less like a piece of Israeli foreign ministry propoganda? ابو علي (Abu Ali) 10:53, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
My two shekels: there are lots of things you can say about Israel (as with any country, I suppose), but you should pick a few important ones for the introduction. The hard question is what is important and what isn't. Either the introduction should be a dry representation of Israel, in neutral geographical and historical terms, or it should also include some pro-Israel aspects as well as more controversial aspects. I agree with Abu Ali -- the intro reads like a pamphlet, which, more than anything, harms the credibility of the entire article (even though the rest seems rather balanced). Specifically, statements like "Israeli is the only ... liberal democracy" -- a neutral sentence would be "Israeli is a liberal democracy", which just describes Israel; instead, the phrasing in the article of this and other sentences is more about how much better Israel is than its neighbors. There are more superlatives here than in the intro to the article about the world's greatest superpower -- the United States. There's plenty of room in the article for regional comparisons, I don't think this is one of the things that should be picked for the introduction.-- Doron 10:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Responding to RfC: I don't like the introductory paragraph quoted above, partly for NPOV reasons but more because it's kind of frothy and omits important facts about Israel, namely (1) its unique situation of longstanding tension with neighboring countries and (2) its ongoing problems (external criticism and internal debate) about the occupied territories, which of course arises from the first point. Also, I wouldn't try to cram the stuff about Jerusalem into a footnote to the introductory section, as is done in the version currently in place.
Of course, it's easier to note flaws than to draft something better. I agree with okedem to the extent of saying that the RfC should've been deferred until there were two (or more) competing versions that we could be asked to comment on. As someone who hasn't edited the article, here's my first cut at it, which I hope could be improved by those more familiar with the subject:
The State of Israel ( Hebrew: , Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل, Dawlat Isrā'īl) is a country in the Southwest Asian Levant, on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. It borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the southwest. [4]
The population today is over seven million, with a Jewish majority. Israel is home to both Jews and Arabs, but is the world's only Jewish state. [5] [6] Israel is the only country in the Middle East considered to be a liberal democracy. [7]
The State of Israel was created in 1948. Many Arab countries did not accept the country's existence and immediately attacked it. As a result of a series of wars from 1948 through 1973, Israel now occupies large areas, parts of which it has controversially annexed. The status of Palestinians in these occupied territories has been a continuing subject of both internal debate and external criticism, and there are frequent outbreaks of violence arising from the issue.
The material that isn't included in this version would generally be appropriate for the body of the article. The point is that the introductory section should give a quick summary of the most important points. JamesMLane t c 18:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think we should change the existing lead inasmuch as it echoes other leads like that at United States, but we could add a brief history section:
The State of Israel was created in 1948, but many Arab countries did not accept the country's existence and immediately attacked it. The following decades were riven by conflicts with its Arab neighbours, while ensuing diplomacy and normalisation has been linked to the territories retained.
I still don't want to fall into the " recentist" trap where the whole Arab-Israeli conflict is overshadowed by one of its elements. Also, the territories in question weren't really acquired in 1948 or 1956, if parts of them were captured and withdrawn from then (and they are many things, but "large" is not one of them ;-] ). My main concern however, and my reticence to have any mention of history in the lead, is that it will automatically become a "POV magnet" of sorts, in that people will want to add in whatever part of that history they feel casts "their side" in the best light. Let me know what you think, Tewfik Talk 04:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I think it is enough to say that Israel is a liberal democracy (leaving out the "only", whose purpose is really to say something about other countries in the region, not the subject of this article) and mention very briefly that Israel has been controlling the West Bank and Golan Heights since 1967. As for the history passage, the phrasing suggested above looks reasonable, perhaps change the first sentence a bit to something more neutral like "...was created in 1948 amidst war with neighboring Arab countries" in order to avoid endless attempts to balance this issue. For more information, the reader can refer to the relevant sections and other articles.-- Doron 19:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I understand your point, but mentioning reality need not be considered racist. Verifiably unique attributes may be understandably uncomfortable for some, and a wise person knows when and when not to mention them, but there is no reason to deny them placement in an encyclopaedia. Tewfik Talk 08:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I suppose you're entitled to seeing the wording as "crass" or "solecistic", but I'm totally at loss as to what might be construed as "barbarous" or "jingoistic". The liberal democracy point is based on the Freedom House index, which I believe does not define Lebanon as such (though I haven't checked in a bit), and which like the human development index is standard fare on country entries. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 06:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
A bit archaic, but I admit that I find such usage refreshing. As far as I know, Freedom House is the premier index for such things, and anyways, the label is that of liberal democracy. No one is claiming that Lebanon is not an electoral democracy, which is somewhat different.
Lebanon is not an electoral democracy. Electoral districts are blatantly gerrymandered to ensure the reelection of incumbent deputies. In contrast to the last three electoral cycles, the 2005 parliamentary elections were monitored by international observers, who judged them to be relatively free of interference by the authorities. However, vote buying was reported to be rampant. The Lebanese government is currently reviewing a draft electoral law proposed in June 2006; the debate will prove contentious as politicians are deeply divided over redistricting.
outdent: What is amazing is how few of the regular contributers to Israel related pages see anything wrong with the lead and the number of editors who are actually prepared to go on the record to defend it. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 20:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Just a thought: one solution may be just to add a little more material, to lessen the focus on those two sentences. If you look at other countries, a little puffery may not be unusual or even so bad, but is usually mixed with a few more details. I don't know if other solutions are forthcoming, but that may help some. Mackan79 05:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
As someone who mentioned POV problems with the lead not too long ago, I'm glad to see it being discussed in such detail. However, I'm worried that for some, the current debate is losing focus and turning more into a "my side/your side" situation. As such, I'd like to revist a proposed lead that was drafted by JamesMLane and well-received by people on both sides. I've also rewritten it to address some concerns that were raised, namely by okedem.
The State of Israel (Hebrew: מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל (help·info), Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل, Dawlat Isrā'īl) is a country in the Southwest Asian Levant, on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. It borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the southwest.[4]
The population today is over seven million, with a Jewish majority. Israel is home to Jews and Arabs, though these are not the only religions present, and is the world's only Jewish state.[5][6] Israel is a liberal democracy, having an array of rights and freedoms that some consider to be absent from other countries in the region.[7]
The modern State of Israel was created in 1948. Many Arab countries did not accept the country's existence and refuse to recognize Israel today. This has resulted in a tense sitaution between Israel and the predominantely Arab population of the Middle East and resulted in several conflicts, the most prominent being the six-day war and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
I think this is much more academic and encyclopedic. It lays a lot of the facts on the line without leaning too far to taking any one position. I hope that the version above remedies most of these problems, and more importantly, I hope that the revised statement above will return us to a civil discussion, resulting in a lead that all are happy with. SpiderMMB 07:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
- The State of Israel (Hebrew: מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל (help·info), Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل, Dawlat Isrā'īl) is a country in the Southwest Asian Levant, on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. It borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the southwest.[4] Jerusalem is the capital, seat of government, and largest city, though many nations do not recognize this and most embassies reside in Tel Aviv.
- The population today is over seven million, with a Jewish majority. Israel is home to Jews and Arabs, though these are not the only religions present, and is the world's only Jewish state.[5][6] Israel is a liberal democracy, having an array of rights and freedoms that some consider to be absent from other countries in the region, and has been ranked as having a high human development index relative to its neighbors.[7]
- Israel declared its independence in 1948 after the United Nations approved the partition of the British Mandate of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state in November 1947. Many Arab countries did not accept the country's existence and some refuse to recognize Israel today. This has resulted in a tense sitaution between Israel and the predominantely Arab population of the Middle East and resulted in several conflicts, the most prominent being the six-day war and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel has, however, normalized relations with some of its neighbors, most notably Egypt and Jordan.
'liberal democracy' has to be cut. Its an old myth and propaganda slogan, with little encyclopediatic value. We have no objective definition of utilize for this classification, and I think grading countries into liberal democracies, semiliberal, pseudoliberal, etc., should be avoided. In practice the slogan of 'the Middle East's only democracy' is just a euphemism for saying that Israel is part of the Western world and civilization. It has little to do with existance of multiparty system (present in several neighbouring countries), press legislations, civil rights (Israel hasn't exactly been spared of criticism by UN and other international institutions regarding this) etc. -- Soman 06:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
"Having a broad array of civil liberties present" is not English. Sorry. Same goes for the rest of the section, which is badly written, hence my edits. The trouble is, you've been looking at this wording for too long and think there can't be any other way to write it. I am looking at it with fresh eyes, and I'm telling you - it is bad.-- Gilabrand 06:40, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Given that the majority of the international community does not recognize Jerusalem as the legitimate capital of Israel, it is wrong to state in the article that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. It is better to state that it is claimed to be the capital of Israel by the government of Israel, which must respect international law that denies it the right to place its capital in Jerusalem. Robert 12:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Jerusalem is internationally recognised as OCCUPIED TERRITORY, the official capital IS Tel Aviv. Jerusalem cannot be called the capital as it is not, this gives people with no knowledge of the region misinformation. In the event that a news station outside of the state of Israel refers to Jerusalem as Israels capital, an immediate retraction and is corrected statement is usually issued (as in a recent BBC news error) so, yes it does matter. I suggest that the Uk should change her capital to Paris as hey, we decide our capital. Stick to FACTS wikipedia.
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Ah yet another example of Israeli propaganda. The reason why the international community does not recongise
Jerusalem is because it is under occupation, and under the fourth geneva convention no country has the right to claim the land until disputes are not over, they also are not allowed to build settlements, block roads, deprive the people of the occupied land, all of which Israel does and in doing so breaks International Law. I dont see a liberated Palestine, so Jerusalem can not be proclaimed its capital as it wasnt before the occupation began. And could the Israelis please stop saying that the international community does not have a say, because was it not the international community (UN) that gave Israel its independence. A country, does certainly have the right to chose its capital, but not when that country is occupying, its against international law, and well establised facts that all 191 countries obey, without it theres no stopping one country invading another! we dont live in the stoneages, we have laws for a reason!
this brings me nicely on to the fact about the occupation that Israel is implementing and has been for the past 40 years. like i said before not mentioning it does not portray the full facts. Its all half truths and half lies being used by the Israelis on this wiki, that try to stop people from knowing the truth about there somewhat evil country. Stop cherry picking the information you want the general public to know, im not asking for tons of information being added, but small paragraphs like the others!
81.132.224.10
00:24, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I have been working on shortening the lengthy History section in this article for the past month (I know... that took way too long; I've been thoroughly distracted). The results of this endeavor is located at User:Tariqabjotu/Israel history. Essentially, the history section in a country's article is supposed to be a summary, especially since we have a History of the State of Israel article, which itself needs some help. Note, as an example, the United States article. The editors there have done a terrific job of summarizing the extensive American history, which itself has a main article, History of the United States, and several sub-articles, including one dedicated to just nine years of history. What are your reactions to my rewrite (ignore the fact that there a few sources; that can be hashed out later)? -- tariqabjotu 19:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Western Asian Levant??? This article is getting weirder by the minute. Who came up with that doozy of a description?-- Gilabrand 18:24, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
The State of Israel (Hebrew: מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל (help·info), Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل, Dawlat Isrā'īl) is a country in Western Asia on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. Located in the Levant, it borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the southwest.
Hi I noted that the references were not showing correctly on this page, so I corrected some of the basic reference syntax. If I did something wrong please acknowledge and advise..! Contact me on my talk page if I made some errors or caused a problem! Reuv 21:05, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
SeiteNichtGefunden has been kind enough to gift us with the horribly misleading and incorrect statement: "Groups such as Amnesty International[13] and Human Rights Watch[14] have been critical of Israeli policies with the United States government being the only major ally of Israel." I would simply revert it, but I am not sure how to best word it. There are plenty of organizations worldwide which are supportive of Israel, and a number of governments which are Israel's allies. If someone more knowledgeable as to precisely which organizations and countries they can cite would do so, I would appreciate it, and the project would certainly benefit. LordAmeth 22:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I had a look at this, as its clearly misinformation. The whole section seems to be taken from an newspaper article/blog, and is wholly inaccurate. If you take a look at the Science Citation Index, it is clear that the US is first in this, with 35%, followed by the United Kingdom, 8 percent; Japan, 7.3 percent; Germany, 7 percent; France, 5.2 percent; Canada, 4.5 percent; Italy, 2.7 percent. This needs to be re-written to reflect the facts. With the figures normalised to 10k per, Finland and Switzerland are higher. I think the blog is specific to one year. scope_creep 21:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Since this ended with no consensus one way or another, I'll start this again -- why is it forbidden to mention that Israel borders the West Bank and Gaza Strip?-- Doron 21:37, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Doron about that - the West Bank is not even asserted by Israel to have been annexed. That said, however if they were left out, it would not be on grounds of independence per se, but that the status of those territories are complicated - that is to say that Israel is the occupying power of a territory that doesn't legally belong to someone else, and as such doesn't "border" [at least the West Bank] in the traditional sense. Perhaps it would make more sense to refer to the Palestinian National Authority's autonomy. Tewfik Talk 09:12, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
After reviewing several featured articles on countries, including Bangladesh, Belgium, Pakistan, Japan, South Africa, India, Indonesia, and Australia, I did not find in any of them a separate section devoted to human rights. All featured articles on countries have more or less the same structure to which this one must stick as well. Beit Or 19:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
A separate section on Israel and nuclear weapons is too much for this article. What we need is one or two sentences, saying that officially Israel follows the policy of deliberate ambiguity, while such and such authoritative military experts believe Israel to possess so many nuclear warheads. The experts, however, must be authoritative and the sources reliable. Beit Or 20:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I have tried to get this point across before, to no avail. The lead is being fought over endlessly because it is arrogant and in-your-face. I offered a revision a while back that was promptly reverted by one editor, and was thereupon lost in the heaps of revision attempts since then. It is not the introduction that I would choose to write myself, if I were creating it from scratch, but based on the material that is already there, here is my suggestion:
The State of Israel was created in 1948. Today it has a population of over seven million people, with a large Jewish majority. While Israel is home to both Jews and Arabs, it is the world's only Jewish state. Jerusalem is Israel's capital city and seat of government. The official residence of the President of Israel, the Knesset and the Supreme Court are located in Jerusalem. The Basic Law: Jerusalem states that "Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel". However, the Palestinian Authority regards East Jerusalem as the future capital of Palestine. The United Nations and many countries do not accept the Basic Law, arguing that Jerusalem's final status will be determined in negotiations with the Palestinians. Most of the countries that maintain diplomatic ties with Israel have thus relocated their embassies to Tel Aviv. Israel is the only country in the Middle East today that qualifies as a liberal democracy. Citizens of the State of Israel enjoy political rights and civil liberties that are not granted in the countries around it. Freedom of expression and freedom of the press are also strictly upheld. Israel has a free market economy, encourages competition and investment, and attributes great importance to human resource development.-- Gilabrand 11:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I adamantly believe some of the recent changes to the #Independence section are unnecessary (and to some extent incorrect). I can't locate the source entitled "Statistical Abstract of Israel No 51. 2000" so I cannot confirm whether it says 600,000 Jews arrived in Israel between 1948 and 1951, but an article from The New York Times says that same number of Jews, 600,000, moved from Arab lands to Israel between 1948 and 2001. Clearly, there's an issue there. This segment –
Over the years immigration waves have placed enormous stress on the social and political infrastructure of Israeli society. After 1948 they provided the human material for a massive settlement drive in areas occupied during the 1948 war. In many areas Jewish refugees lived in tent cities known as Ma'abarot for some years before permanent dwelling was provided by the state.
– and the number of Jews who arrived from North Africa seems unnecessary for a section that is only supposed to be a summary. The latter number also appears to conflict with the New York Times source. The changes to those sections should be reverted; the previous version seemed perfectly fine (or at least better than this version). -- tariqabjotu 22:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
A Haaretz piece reproduced on a Sephardic/Mizrahi website says "Some 750,000 Jews immigrated to Israel from Arab countries in 1948-1952". Tewfik Talk 07:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that "foreign relations & military" should be merged - even if this is true for other countries. Both are complicated subjects in Israel's case, and there is really no connection between them (unless military confrontations with the Arabs are considered a form of foreign relations).-- Gilabrand 20:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
In my last few edits I removed the extensive geography from the lead as it was not really representative of the section, and was disproportionate both to the rest of the lead, which is already on the long side owing to the country's complex history, as well as to the treatment given in FA article leads (which I presume is where all this is heading?). I also restored a few other details that I thought were key and did not take up very much room. I removed the nuclear stuff, as it was also far out of proportion to coverage on United States, which actually used them in war, and an FA like India, which conducted tests. I think we might also be short on appropriate images: for geography, if editors don't want a topographic or climate map, perhaps we can produce a montage with some of the diversity. The desert image is quite nice, but it isn't representative (or is my objection crazy ;-] ?). A nice picture of diversity in contemporary society would probably also be a good addition, and while the associations with Israel are probably already military-heavy, perhaps a better image could be found than the mostly white emblem? Let me know, Tewfik Talk 06:56, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
The extended geography section in the lead doesn't change whether it is or isn't propaganda, as you put it. I encourage everyone to take a look at other featured country articles, whose format we should aim for regardless of whether this becomes an FA or not. Tewfik Talk 08:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Can we just get rid of this –
The Israeli Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty seeks to defend human rights and liberties. Reporters Without Borders reported Israel 50th out of 168 countries in terms of freedom of the press, highest among Middle Eastern countries and just ahead of the Japan. [8] In addition, Israel is also the only country in the region to have its press ranked "Free" by Freedom House. [9]
– paragraph? It is so out of place and completely irrelevant to the other content being discussed in the government section unless we provide some sort of context (such as the fact that Israel has gotten quite a bit of criticism over human rights). Additionally, Israel's status as the Middle East's most free country is already addressed in the the introduction. -- tariqabjotu 17:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I notice that the article has undergone dramatic and rampant revisions in the past few weeks. I have to voice my opinion that these revisions are making the POV problems in this article worse, not better. I was encouraged to find a long and intelligent debate on the topic of POV problems in the lead, but sadly that discussion seems to have halted, once more. I now notice that the Human Rights section, which at one point was balanced and presented both perceived problems and higher developments in Israel's human rights, has now been shorted to a few sentences that only mention the good things about Israel's human rights record. I understand why someone would think that an entire section devoted to Israel's human rights might be misplaced, but cannot agree that shortening it so that only positive statements are reflected is the way to go. I'll stress again that I don't think there is anything wrong with mentioning Israel's better positions relative to other countries in the region, but it is extremely unacademic to allow only good things about Israel to be edited into this article. I was afraid that had happened with the lead, and I fear that is now happening to the entire article.
By way of example, the foreign policy section of the United States at one point mentioning nothing about negative perceptions of American foreign policy. At one point it was much the same as the Israel article, with even one survey mentioning the low opinion of America's standing in the world following the invasion of Iraq being edited out. But in attempt to get featured article status, a compromise was reached. The US article is still not featured, but I think everyone involved in the process of making it better would agree that it has improved dramatically. You will notice, when you read it now, that it is balanced in the way it presents American foreign policy. It has become less about promoting the United States, and more about informing the readers about America and all the views that accompany it. At the same time, it does not do America a disservice, continuing to list beneficial things about it such as its economy and its standard of living.
I don't suppose that this plea to the editors of this article will meet with much success. Attempts at discussing this and editing anything into the article have been met with constant reversions. I don't blame just the pro-Israel editors, because the anti-Israel editors have made it just as difficult to make this work (as the discussion about the lead will show). However, I do hold out hope. Because I know that there are pro-Israel editors here who recognize the POV problems in this article, and who have shown their ability to have an intelligent discussion on the matter above. I know that some of you are defensive on this issue, and I understand why. But I also hope you see that editing out all the criticism, and editing in only positive reviews of Israel's record, is unencyclopedic and may ultimately having a detrimental effect on how this article is academically viewed. SpiderMMB 04:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I think there's way too much stuff about human rights. In contrast there is practically nothing about the people and their history. Which should be a central feature of the article. What's happening is that everything is written from a perspective of the conflict,the history section is entirely about wars. The conflict centred writing is also why you are so concerned about human rights. It is obvious from the tone of your comments that you are far more interested in the conflict then you are in Israel - and that you have probably never visited the country. It seems to me that if you want to discuss human rights in Israel you should open a seperate entry and put in a link, or move it to the entry discussing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Otherwise it doesn't warrant more then a couple of sentences. Telaviv1 14:11, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I accept your points about the Human Rights - its OK but I think the history section needs improving, the early years are all about wars while the later ones have too much detail. I think more space should be given to the impact of immigration on Israeli society. Incidentally it doesn't mention Ben-Gurion. It should probably be built to provide links to the relevant pages. Telaviv1 21:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I want to apologize if anyone found the tone of my post condescending or offensive, as did Tariqabjotu. I didn't mean to imply that there are no neutral editors here. The points I raised were particular to this article, but the overall problem is Wiki-wide and I've mentioned it on many other articles as well. It's simply the nature of Wikipedia, and what keeps an otherwise revolutionary medium from being taken seriously in the academic world, even to the point of being banned. But I can see how the tone would be offensive and apologize if anyone took it as such.
Back to the article at hand:
SpiderMMB 17:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)Within Israel, policies of its government are often subjected to criticism from the left and right by its press as well as by a vast variety of political, human rights and watchdog groups such as Association for Civil Rights in Israel, B'Tselem, Machsom Watch, Women in Black, Women for Israel's Tomorrow, among others. According to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, Sephardi Jews "have long charged that they suffered social and economic discrimination at the hands of the state's Ashkenazi establishment." [10] Btselem, the Israeli human rights organization, has stated that Israel has created in the West Bank a regime of separation based on discrimination, applying two separate systems of law in the same area and basing the rights of individuals on their nationality. [11] Such criticism has also led to Israel's press being ranked as most free in the region. According to the Reporters Without Borders (RWB), "The Israeli media were once again in 2005 the only ones in the region that had genuine freedom to speak out." [12] RWB ranked Israel 50th (tied with Grenada) out of 168 countries as regards freedom of the press, the highest of any country in the Middle East and just ahead of the United States (53rd). [13] In addition, Israel is also the only country in the region to have its press ranked as "Free" (28 on the scale 1-100) by Freedom House, though the Israeli-Occupied Territories/ Palestinian Authority were ranked "Not Free" (84 out of 100). [14]
Yet again the Israelis on this wiki have failed to mention one of the biggest allegations that Israel has against its name, that is of 'War Crimes'. What is it going to take for these people to stop there acts of propaganda and to stop hiding the basic establised factual truth. This page has some information that really goes of in tangents, from the culture of Israel to its sport, which is all fine, but why isnt there a effort being made on controversial issues regarding Israel. Amnesty International along with the UN have been claiming Israel is responsible for some of the most digusting crimes against humanity, not mentioning it is just injustice to the innocents that have fell victim to Israeli aggressive occupation. I believe someone should make an effort to stop these propagandists from detering, and hindering the truth. Im not asking for pages and pages on the issue, just a mention would be fine along with leading links to other wiki pages! ill be happy to right the page and provide solid information about the claims, but i fear it may deleted as the Israelis cant actually handle the truth about there country. 81.132.224.10 00:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
lol, mate that not be talking there, that has been reported and documented, ill show you the links and sources! Its a fact that Israel has oddly 'mistakely' killed thousands of innocents under there 40 year occupation. The UN and Amnesty international have reported that Israel is one of the biggest abusers of International law. I have the ffacts! but of course okedem cant handle the truth about his beloved Israel. Its rather dissapointing, when efforts to portary the truth on WIKI is denied by the Israelis that dont want the world to know hoe evil Israel is. quite sad! I
81.132.224.10
17:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I cant believe this, im talking on the topic, and have been saying why the information must be included on the wiki, and you start abusing and name calling me. I shall be reporting you to the main moderator also for threatening to block me, which under wiki rules is forbidden. and please stick to the topic and improve this sorry looking page, and dont threaten me, its cowardly, really 81.132.224.10 23:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
yh nice try, take everything i say out of context! i justified all my points with arguments to further improve the wiki, im not bovered about attacking you, and please dont assume it is my primary target, because it isnt. listen to the points i make and the explanations i give, be open minded. And youve been reported to the admin for exploiting wiki rules and threatening me with bans 81.132.224.10 13:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Im off to a bad start? ive been a wiki user for longer then you, and am familiar to wiki more then you think, i just havent been able to use my proper account, and again, this is a topic talk page, stop thinking your a hot shot, and stick to the issue rambo 86.132.121.162 17:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
okedem please, stop judging my behavior, i didnt ask you to, and its annoying please stick to the topic and stop with the personal attacks
86.154.85.87
23:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like a section to be included about the vast amounts of money Israeli officials are offering the Jews of African, European and the Islamic countries to give up there land to come to Israel. I have loads of relavent webpages of factual claims that clearly protray Israel tactics to pursuade these Jews. This topic should be enlisted in the wiki because it has been one of the main tactics used by Zionists to proclaim there 'biblically promised land'. I would also like to start a dicussion on this topic, as it was recently brought to light by many news broadcasters across the UK. I dont wish the topic to be very long, but a mension under a main heading relating all controvesial issues would be very informative to the user and will improve this wiki very much 81.132.224.10 00:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
hah!! okedem, i beg to differ. If topic about foriegn relations with turkey and japan can be discussed, i think this scandal can also be.I dont wish it to be talked about in detail, but under religion it should be. Israel has be caught out for exploiting the Jews of different countries and offering them money to give up there born soverienty, which the governments of there countries have been outright angered by. And it is important to note that it should be helpful to the reader, in order to make this wiki better how Israel gets the money to manage this and yet recieves more Aid then any other nation in the world! 81.132.224.10 17:10, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
It is a scandal, when you think about the facts. Israel is recieving aid, some of which more desperate people around the world can do with and using it to lure people to Israel. And its digusting how Israel seems it can buy citizens based on there religion, its sad and a scandal. Do you think the Christian and Muslim people around the world, that are living in worser conditions then the Jews would give anything to be Jewish. Its explotation!and a rather big scandal, which the BBC, SkyNews France24 etc have all reported on. Its appauling to think the money the US tax payers give go, not to the people that are dying, but to people who are luring people because of there religion. 81.132.224.10 23:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
okedom, this is not a talk page. I am just giving suggestions to improve this page, your not helping by attacking. you should know the wiki rules 'be welcoming'. I think if i gave the evidence of the aid and the luring tactics, it would help others who are interested in improving the page, rather then your continual boring rants.
Ill start making up the para asap! 86.132.121.162 18:24, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
your debating the morals here, not the facts. No other country in the world pays certain individuals to become citizens of there nation because of religious believes. I dont care what you think, and what you think other countries might do, Israel does it, so should be included in the WIKI. Furthermore, the luring of Jews with economic benifits is expliotation of the poor. The Israelis are in a sense buying citizens, and asking people to sell there sovegien identity, thats what i know from the facts, but even so there should be a suggestion to what israel does. and it was a typo, this page is not used to express personal views, so stop it! 86.154.85.87 23:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
First you say: "Furthermore the luring of Jews with economic benifits(sic) is expliotation(sic) of the poor." Then comes this gem:"This page is not used to express personal views, so stop it!" Do you even read you own stuff before you post it? Schrodingers Mongoose 18:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I think there should also be a topic included in this wiki, that discusses the amount of aid Israel recieves, which makes them so capable to advance in such high fields. It would also explain to the reader how a small country the size of Israel has become to rich, yet recieves aid, so quick. This should really be incoperated with the occupation, as some analysts do say it would have been impossible for Israel to maintain the 40 year occupation it does without the aid. However it could also be included in the defence section, which discusses the issues on Israel nuclear capabilities. Either way, it shouldnt be touched on that much, but small didication to other web pages should be made. It is very relavent in its advancement in recent decades and would be very informative! 81.132.224.10 00:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
okedem Your a typical Israeli that cant really face the harsh realities of Israel regime. And Egypt does not get anywhere near the amount of aid that Israel gets, this being more then the whole of Africa and South American combined. I have tons of realiable sources that i can point you to to confirm this. On the other hand can you prove that Egypt gets more military then Israel as you claim, and furthermore why did you find it relavent to bring up Egypt into the topic, when were tal;king about Israel. Israel has been able to occupy the WB and Gaza for over 40 years because of US military/economic aid, and i have evidence, so please stop spreading your propangandist lies! 81.132.224.10 17:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Nice tactic, yh sure go off the topic and rant about me not being civil. Do you even know what the word civil mean son! and im not making my comments to make friends, im doing it to improve this WIKI, something which you seem not to be important 81.132.224.10 23:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
hardly npov user 81 :) This is not a discussion forum... 130.91.98.31 07:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi 81, if you have "tons of sources", why not just link them here? It might add more weight to your argument than insulting people. -- Dilaudid 10:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
All of the american aid to Israel is restricted to be used for military purposes only. not only that, a significant part of it must be used for the purchase of american made weapons and military equipment. Even without counting the aid, Israel still has significantly higher military expenses than any other nation in the west. So I'm afraid that even if we specify about the american aid (and about the huge financial burden that is Israel's security budget in general), it won't help the reader to gain a better understanding of how "Israel became so rich". Apollo 11 12:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I would also like to see under the section of the religion, a small sentence or two, dedicated on Israel immigration situation. From the facts i have come to learn, and for which i have concreate proof, any Jew can be given Israeli citizenship and recieve the benifits from the Israeli government, even if they have no tie to the country. I think it would be appropreaite to put this infortmation in as it is of the upmost importance when looking Israels immgration policies. It would also be appro. to add that many international organisations have frowned upon Israel for granting citizenship to people who have no conncection to Israel, and denied the very people who had been living there over 60 years ago.any more comments would be appreciated! 81.132.224.10 23:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
No your wrong, Its based on the religion and not only ethicity (like the ethiopian jews. A Jewish convert can also apply for citizenship. I think it should be noted in the wiki. And there is no other country in the world that grants citizenship based on the religion they preach, that is why some international organisations have frowned upon Israel. 81.132.224.10 13:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
in simple words, religious based citizenship being used!! why isnt that included in the wiki. If i convert and become a jew, i can get an Israeli passport. This nonsense about jewish culture, is not the point here, even though people of jewish culture are also given a citizenship. 86.142.216.167 23:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Economy/gdppercap.html states a 2004 gdp per capita at approx 17,000 CIA fact book puts population at 6.4 million https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html
ah yes, the facts are right for every other country apart from Israel, seeing how it sees itself as superior to all other countries. The figures are incorrect, and outdated, please correct, and dont dispute evidence 86.142.216.167 23:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Some of the reference links are not scholarly links. Please investigate further. Shadibeidas 14:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Is the RFC issue now resolved? Can the RFC be closed? Eiler7 20:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
It's a nice idea to introduce "religious diversity" into the religious section, but devoting at least a quarter of the article to a few people who belong to esoteric religious sects is unacceptable, bordering on the ridiculous. Every time I try to add pertinent information to this article, most of it is promptly removed in the interests of "keeping things short and tidy." Religion in Israel is a very important topic. There is no listing of the zillions of Christian sects, no discussion of very significant differences between trends in Judaism, and no mention of Islam, when Islamic beliefs are central to terrorism in Israel today. So fine, keep the Bahai photo (nice pictures are definitely lacking here), but either add more info on other religions, or remove the overly detailed discussion of a handful of marginal religious groupings somewhere in Israel (or not even living in Israel, with just a temple here)-- Gilabrand 07:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Indeed Israel has decided to call the war the "Second Lebanon War" but Lebanon has called it the "July War". The fact that we are writing in the Israel article does not license us to only use the Israeli name. That would be akin to rephrasing the first sentence of Palestinian refugee to say "the Palestinian Exodus, the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة, meaning "disaster" or "catastrophe")" instead of "the Palestinian Exodus, which Palestinian Arabs call the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة, meaning "disaster" or "catastrophe")." So, I'd suggest either (a) removing the end of the sentence (like I did earlier) or (b) rephrasing the item to say "known in Israel as the Second Lebanon War" (specifying that Israel calls it that, and removing the link to Second Lebanon War, which is redundant with the "five-week war" link). I personally prefer the first option since (i) we already link to the 2006 Lebanon War article earlier in the sentence, (ii) what Israel calls the war is rather inconsequential, and (iii) we don't explain what the First Lebanon War was (and probably don't need to). -- tariqabjotu 18:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I hoped to come to the talk page to pre-empt the kind of comment Gilabrand made above, but unfortunately he beat me to the punch. I'm not here to monopolize the article, but when serious quality errors, such as ones caused by this edit, these edits, and these edits (in reference to the line breaks), are introduced, one should not be surprised if someone comes along to fix them – even if in a drastic manner. In reference to the line breaks, the line breaks were not merely put between paragraphs that had already existed. Piecing together the coherent paragraphs that originally existed would have been more difficult, in my opinion, because making all the section edits at once might have hit edit conflicts and other issues along the way (if you have not noticed, that is basically how I choose to re-write other, shorter, sections; this edit, for instance, took several hours). You appear to disagree. Fine. And maybe you're right. But the effect of either method would have still been the same. I didn't say I was going to "reintroduce certain bits later"; please don't put something in quotes unless you're copying something verbatim. I instead said that I "will attempt to merge content changes momentarily", which, unlike your misquote, (a) does not suggest I'm only going to put a few things back in and (b) shows an intention to more immediately fix the issue. Unfortunately, you hardly gave me an opportunity to fix the issue. You probably did not know, but when I was submitting the reverting edit, I repeatedly got a Wikimedia Error page. It wasn't until about fifteen minutes that I decided to just go back to the Israel article only to discover that my edit had actually went through the first time. I then proceeded to begin to merge the content changes back into the article, as I said I would, beginning with one of your edits.
So, I didn't use your exact wording regarding the Rabin assassination. So what? I have as much right as you to add information to the article. You split off the sentence regarding Rabin's assassination. Terrific; I don't care. I simply added the name of the killer as well as the part about Oslo Accords support rebounding (which you appeared to remove from the original version because it didn't fit in with splitting off the sentence). Saying the assassination "shook the country to the core" is media sensationalism; there's no need to be so dramatic. I was momentarily side-tracked by the fact that you had changed the sentence in the following section despite the fact that we both tentatively agreed on one phrasing, but you hardly gave me a chance to proceed to complete the rest of the merges as you reverted my revert (along with my content change) before the end of the hour.
You complain about my "blanket reversion of [your] edits" when no such thing took place. The only thing I reverted was the section entitled "The first fifty years, 1950s-1990s". You worked on the Culture section and the Education section and the Religion section, which I left alone, but the changes to the prescribed section from the history were hardly your doing, but almost entirely the work of Telaviv1 ( talk · contribs) (and, as I said, I was going to merge the content changes back in anyway). I don't know what you're trying to say out of this. That I'm making too many changes to the article? That I'm being pedantic about the quality of even specific sentences? Well, I'm sorry to inform you that is the way I will continue to work on this article (and any article I devote this much time to). I will look at all the edits since my last visit to this page and make changes to the work of others if I see stylistic issues or if something was inadvertently removed in the midst of another change. This is less an indictment of your (and others') ability to write, and more a tendency of some to edit more quickly, thereby sometimes introducing unwanted stylistic errors (like the ones noted in the first paragraph of this comment). So, in the same vein, I'm unsure where you got the impression that I'm ""rewriting"" (again with the misquote) "the information in substandard English". I tend to proofread my edits quite well and although I still do sometimes make mistakes, there appears to be nothing grammatically incorrect about this phrasing (which, as I said earlier, is a reflection of your wording with the introduction of two pieces of information).
There is no "system" of "reverting everything and writing that [I] will "reintroduce certain bits later"". Let's not exaggerate; I made one single edit. This article was in desperate need of help (particularly in the style department rather than the content department) and I have, as I'm sure others have, been doing their best to improve this article. Suggesting that my way of editing (whatever that way of editing may be) is unacceptable is, well, unacceptable. I'm not asking for a gold medal here, but my edits on the whole have contributed positively to the article. I'm more than willing to discuss pieces when others make serious objections to my edits or reverts (a lá WP:1RR), but asking for permission on the talk page for every edit (or even most edits) I make is unnecessary and counter-productive to improving this article in a timely fashion. -- tariqabjotu 19:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
why there is no information about Gini coefficient for israel? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.22.136 ( talk • contribs)
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Is there nothing else besides war between neighboring states in the past 50 years? I am sure that Israeli history would be more interesting than simply a bomb here and an attack there.
How can Israel be called a democracy when the Israeli government itself states that Israel is a Jewish state for the Jewish people. Israel's ambassador to the UN repeated the same sentiments recently in an interview. Furthermore, there are countless laws in place favoring Jews over other members of society (e.g. Christians and Muslims).
Israel can't be described as a democracy for several reasons: Any Jew in any country can move to Israel and immediately receive citizenship and financial subsidies. Christians and Muslims can't do so despite having family and relatives in Israel proper. I have heard the argument that since there are Arab MPs in the Knesset it is a slam dunk case. Well, that's not good enough. That does not constitute a democracy by any stretch of the imagination. Unless of course, some would like to argue that Israel IS a democracy when compared to other states in the Middle East. Well, if that’s the case, then I must warn you that Iran and Pakistan are competing for that title.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- The classification of a country as a democracy is primarily related to the rights and freedoms of the people who inhabit it, and does not describe its immigration policy. Israel's immigration policy may be to your liking or it may not, but no matter what your opinion might be on that subject, it doesn't change the nature of Israel as the only free democratic society in the Middle East (...and yes, for those who legally live within its borders).
Most of the world's major free democracies reserve the right to choose those who will be permitted to immigrate into its borders. For example, the United States, Britain, Ireland, Switzerland, New Zealand, Australia, and Japan, (to mention just a few examples) have some of the most restrictive and selective immigration policies that favor some groups of people over others. This is also true of Israel.
- Ehad Ha'am, May 28, 2007
--- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Note that the following information is from a book by Professor David Kretchmer of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. The book is titled: “The Legal Status of Israeli Arabs”.
Israel’s declaration of independence states that Israel was created as a home for the Jewish people, first and foremost. The declaration puts emphasis on the Jewish identity rather than the political structure of a democracy. From that period onwards, Israel’s laws have relied heavily on this declaration. In article 7A of the Israeli statute law it states that the Knesset prohibits the participation in the elections to the Knesset any party that “Rejects Israel as a state for the Jewish people” or those that “Reject the democratic nature of the state.”
In 1980 the Israeli Supreme Court passed a law stating that in the event that an Israeli court was unable to reach a decision based on legal precedence or comparison they should refer to the heritage of the nation of Israel (i.e. Jewish history)
Another law, which dates back to 1980, restricts legal marriages to Jews only. In other words, a Jewish man or woman can not marry a non-Jew and enjoy the recognition of the state as a legal and valid marriage.
The state flag of Israel has its basis in a 1948 law that borrows its design from the “Talit” bearing the Star of David. The same applies to the Menorah which is a religious Jewish symbol used as the state’s seal. The same goes for the national anthem, "Hatikvah”.
State owned lands can not be sold to non-Jews. 19% of state owned land is managed and administered by the National Jewish Fund whose mission statement includes a clause prohibiting the sale of land to non-Jews.
The following is merely a sample of discrimination relating to land distribution and ownership:
During the 50s and the 60s, lands owned by non-Jews where confiscated to build what later became “Natsrat Elite” (Upper Nazareth) and “Karmiel”. Non-Jews (Arabs) where prohibited from purchasing houses in these two cities. In 1976 alone, the Israeli government confiscated 1500 acres of Non-Jewish owned land to “Develop the Galilee”.
In 1969 and 1977 two state laws where passed in regards to searches and civilian aviation under which security officials can search anyone they please if they are regarded as a threat to national security. And, in fact, based on documented cases Israeli Arabs (i.e. Non-Jews) are stopped and searched prior to boarding an airplane while their Jewish counterparts are not subject to the same scrutiny. In essence, Non-Jews are treated as a national security threat.
Jewish schools run by the government (i.e. public schools) are granted higher budgets than those in non-Jewish towns and cities. In addition, every school in the non-Jewish sector has to get approval from the Ministry of Education prior to employing a non-Jew as a teacher. Non-Jewish teachers are subject to a “security clearance”, that is to say that if they are politically active that they will not be granted permission to teach. -- Anonymous 00:48, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
By definition, a democracy should treat all its citizens equally and be a government by the people. Can you say the same about Israel?
1. "Go read some philosophy book". I don't appreciate the condescending tone.
2. "No, not really. You misunderstand the book, or the book is badly written (or translated)".
Actually, that's hardly the case. The book is written by a well respected professor of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. The book is written in Hebrew, my native language. I don't think I misunderstood it. Can you cite a source that backs up your argument? Why is it when a baby is born to a Jewish mother he is immediately registered in the Ministry of Interior as a Jew? When a baby is born to a Christian or Muslim mother, they usually ask the mother as to the baby’s religion.
3. "Security - Since Israel is under serious terrorist threats and attacks, some measures were needed. Are those measures being abused by some? Maybe. Is that governmental discrimination - not at all."
Those measures are a POLICY that no one within the government is willing to address or discuss. There are documented cases of non-Jews facing discrimination at airports. It's a pattern and a trend that indicates a policy. Besides, airport security is made up of government employees, are they not? The Shin Bet agents who supervise these employees are government employees, are they not?
4. "Airplanes - the security staff make their own calls, and sometimes they're wrong.”
The security staff is sometimes wrong? Must you downplay these discriminatory practices? (See #3)
"But bear this in mind - no Jews go on planes and abduct them or blow them up. Some Muslims do."
So you're saying that it's ok for Israel to profile non-Jews simply because of the political situation? We're discussing a principle here, the principle of democracy and equality, not "well, considering the political climate we live in.....". You can't have your cake and eat it. Israel can either be a democracy, or not.
Also, you said, "some Muslims do". What about those cases of Christian Arabs facing the same discrimination as their Muslim counterparts? I would say the discrimination is against non-Jews, not just those who "pose a threat", as Israeli government pundits would put it.
6. You did not respond to the "teachers and budgets" part in my previous post. -- Anonymous
Well getting tired of writing in the section about nuclear weps I put on the talkpage I think it would be some use to show how much of a 'liberal democracy' and how much 'human development' has taken place in Israel by referring to the case of Mordechai Vanunu, of course Okedem from what I can tell your Israeli (just a guess) so youll probably view him as some type of spy or traitor, and then reply to this in a thoroughly patronising manor explaining how this happens in places such as the UK and America and so its perfectly kosher. Well ive got two preliminary awnsers to these arguments even before I start saying what im going to say. Number one: if it happens in the west it dosent mean its without contraversy, we have disputes over how to treat spies and the like (though excluding America's Guatanamo bay we have no where near as bad a record as Sin Bet or Mossad, and I come from the UK so for me at least guatanamo doesn't count). Im not particularily anti-Israel, just pro-human rights and I believe both the west and israel have violated human rights, although in the west it is generally less accepted by the public because of the less aparant nationlism, and so these issues are confronted, although in this article they are not generally mentioned at all. Now onto the real argument taking the treatment of Mordechai Vanunu who was recently released from life imprisonment and has had varying difficulty functioning politically in Israel (both before the imprisonment and after). Now you may say that Israel could legally abduct Mordechai from another country because he was a whistleblower, but technically they have no legal right to do so. This is because international law generally over-runs national law, and despite Israel not signing the nuclear proliferation treaty (which incidentally on the case of human development ALL the Arab nations have signed) even in secret they have no right to abduct a citizen from another country, which they have done. The fact that Mordechai released an Israeli secret places him squarely illegal in Israel, though the fact Israel was technically illegally producing nuclear weapons is by far the worse crime internationally and in fact the legality of holding Mordechai may well be void internationally because instead of commiting a crime he was actually denouncing a crime. ]
His treatment, as far as Europe, and many other bodies, including to varying degrees the UN (not least because it breaks several UN human rights laws) are concerned is unacceptable and illegal. In fact it is the kind of thing a 'liberal' democracy should not be capable of, and I can give you several human rights violations if you wish them and quote many a thing Vanunu has said and many journalists, and even Israeli Mossad agents have said regarding him. For more information check the wikipedia article on him, and this should negate the whole notion of human development and 'liberal democracy' in israel. If you want me to argue my point further with more information I shall but to be honest the article on him says it all. Oh and yes of course regarding the lack of prejudice aagainst minorities this is something (I mentioned below as well) which may pose intrest to you, stated by a Mossad agent why they didnt kill Vanunu (mossad effectively being under direct control of the government) 'Jews dont kill other Jews'.
I was trying to direct someone else to a series of maps depicting Israel's changing borders -- either claimed or actually enforced -- and found nothing here, really, except by wading through the WikiAtlas collection. I'm taking about 1948 vs. 1967 vs. 1995, etc. I don't know whether it should be part of the main Israel article or a separate article linked to this one, but I'm willing to bet someone has the necessary information or visuals at their fingertips. (Hint, hint, . . .) -- Michael K. Smith 16:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not have a huge amount of Knowledge of Jewish religious history, or motives for Zionism and general return to Israel, but I think it would be good if this article explained in greater detail religious motives (if there are any) for return to Israel. Disagree with me if you feel this is sufficiently explained. I however think this should be put in a NPOV way which in my opinion considerable amounts of the article are not placed in. This would be either by showing both points of view for and against technical religious reasons for Israel. E.g. one point of view maybe that the Jewish people were displaced centuaries ago by the babalonians and that they have rights to the country, and the other point of view would be along the lines of that in Jewish texts the babalonian invasion was a punishment by G-d for disobeying Israel, and that the return to Israel would happen only with the coming of the messiah. Or possibly a secular or atheist point of view which states that Zionism is out of place in todays society. Or simply just by giving a general overview with neither point of view, which explains basic refrences to Israel in Hebrew scripts. If you feel the article explaisn this enough then disagree with me, or that the Jewish migration to Israel was non-religious and simply to avoid persecution, however since many politicians in Israel follow a religious line (for publicity reasons or otherwise) I personally belive the religious reasons shoudl be explained.-S.M
Of the first part of this sentence:
Though its exact borders remain undefined [1] it is located between Lebanon to the north, Syria and Jordan to the east, and Egypt to the south-west. [1] Tiamut 14:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I realize this topic is a sensitive one for you, but you should be able to put aside your nationalistic sentiments and focus on the facts. And if I haven't added this information to the Syria and Lebanon articles yet, its because I haven't yet looked at them. I am a member of the Palestine and Israel Wikiprojects not those of Syria and Lebanon. Here are more reliable sources discussing the ambiguity in Israel's border situation:
4) ...in a country where politics revolve over terror attacks and undefined borders
So as you can see, the issue of Israel's borders and the ambiguity surrounding where exactly they lay is an important and relevant issue. I believe my edit alludes to this without getting heavily into the specifics, which are better discussed in the body. However, for the introduction to imply that there are borders, when in fact, Israel has never declared its borders, is totally misleading and unencyclopedic to boot. Tiamut 10:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Can you read Okedem? Nowhere in the articles I cited does it say that Israel's current borders are defined. That's what you need to support your claim that Israel does indeed have defined borders which is what you formulation implies ("It borders Lebanon here and Syria there, etc., etc.) You are purposely misleading the reader by ignoring the evidence in front of your eyes. The other sources I gave you state clearly that there are no "final borders". If the borders are not final, then they are not currently defined. Two of the sources explicitly support the idea that they fully undefined, one actually using that exact term and the other the more diplomatic "spatially ambiguous" (i.e. undefined). Further, since you seem to be having difficulty understanding, there are these sources:
Israel is the only country in the world with undeclared borders.
Israel is the only country in the world that has never declared or demarcated its borders.
These actually up the ante a bit, moving past undefined to undeclared altogether. Now, I expect that there will be a note reflecting this reality in the introduction. After all, the intro currently claims its the only country in the Middle East that is democracy, why not state the other fact about Israel in relation to other countries. It is the only one never to declare or demarcate its borders. i.e. they remain undefined. I think my edit was very diplomatic actually considering what the situation actually is. Tiamut 13:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Let's review once again:
and something new to consider, since you claim these are somehow unreliable sources:
Now how would you like to add this information to the article. Do you prefer my formulation? Though its exact borders remain undefined, [3] it is located between Lebanon to the north, Syria and Jordan to the east, and Egypt to the south-west. [3]
or do you have another formulation in mind? And Okedem, if you don't know what a border is, how can you possibly claim know that Israel's are defined? Tiamut 15:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, it looks like we need a RfC then. I have provided you with a number of reliable sources that state that Israel's borders are undefined and undeclared. You have failed to provide even one that says that they are defined and where they are located. I don't think the six words that I want to add to the introduction ("Though its borders remain undefined") are so offensive that they warrant such resistance, particularly in the face of anywhere between 5 to 10 reliable sources stating that this is the case. You do not seem to want to abide by WP:NPOV which states that all significant viewpoints must be represented. You have not even offered a compromise formulation or made a gesture to incorporate this information into the body of the article. I'd say that the view of those cited here that Israel's borders are undefined or undeclared is significant enough to warrant inclusion in this article. Perhaps others will agree, perhaps not. We'll just have to wait and find out. Tiamut 16:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm new to wikipedia and don't have my own account yet, but I agree with both the points put forward above me, Israel, from whatever point of view of looking at it, (and I am definetly no pro-Israel type) borders the countries Okedem put forward, even if the terriotory which is not considered legal is removed from the equation.There is no point in disagreeing with this because the only way to change what countries Israel borders would be to create some new ones (out of the occupied terriotories) or to move Israel. On the other hand Tiamut adresses a valid issue, it is not really acceptable just to write as though the borders are defined, universally accepted, and non fluctuating. The truth is, being represented by the U.N. most countries disagree with the borders currently set by Israel, although Okedem what you say about bodering Syria, Lebanon etc is all true, what YOU seem to evade is the question of the actuall positioning oof the borders, whether Israel borders Syria closer to, or further away from Israel proper. The truth is these borders are undefined, and the way the article is written it seems these are universally accepted and permanent borders, and that the borders of the occupied areas are the borders of Israel. This may or may not be on purpose, but nevertheless I think it is important that something like Tiamut's sentence is put in to show, at least, Israel's true borders are disputed and not accepted by some, weather they are rightly disputed is a matter of opinion but it is not a matter of opinion that they ARE disputed, and by standing in the way of using that simple sentence Okedem you seem to be deliberately obstructive, but maybe you are not.
Basically in a summary what I'm saying is Okedem writes the truth, though not the whole truth, and by not writing all points of view it ould give someone who knows nothing about these borders misleading information about Israel and its legality of borders in international law. Obviously this is an exagerration and the occupied territories themselves are not considered countires (though their ownership is disputed) but on a bigger scale it my be a bit like saying Russia is to the east of America India is to the West, therefore implying to some degree America directly borders Russia and India without any counter argument. I dont think there should be any problem with adding a bit more information in, even Okedem if you don;t believe it is neccessary it cannot do any harm to the article.
... etc, etc. though whether the borders of the territory Israel controls are Israel's borders, or The borders recognised by the UN are Israel;s borders is currently the subject of much dispute.
historically, "border" refers to the border of the area(s) controlled by a state. 1. the borders of the areas the state Israel controls are well defined. 2. all those areas are part of the land of Israel. 3. all those areas were acquired in a defensive war, so according to international law Israel has legal right to them. all this means that Okedems wording of this specific phrase is correct. it doesn't matter what people think the borders of the state of Israel should be, it matters what they actually are. thinking something other than reality doesn't make reality change to match your opinion. if you think the borders are other than they actually are, it doesn't make them so. if you think I'm an idiot, that still doesn't mean my IQ is low. and if it is low then it's low regardless of your opinion. -Shyisc 18:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The dispute is over whether or not to include this sentence in the introduction of the Israel article: Though its exact borders remain undefined, it is located between Lebanon to the north, Syria and Jordan to the east, and Egypt to the south-west. Currently, the article reads: It borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the south-west. [4] A number of sources have been provided by one editor to support the claim that Israel’s borders are undefined and/or undeclared . Examples of these sources include: [5], [6] [7] [8] [9]. Two editors reject the relevance and/or reliability of those sources. Your comments would be appreciated. For those who require more information, review the section above the RfC where the discussion began here: [10].17:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that in order to resolve this dispute, we need to stop evading each other's concerns. I think the easiest way to do this is to ask the other side a few relevant direct questions to which they'd have to answer in order for their argument to have more weight. Here are my questions for Tiamut:
Tiamut (and anyone else on Tiamut's side of the argument): I'd appreciate if you answered these questions point by point. Feel free to ask okedem or myself whatever relevant questions you have in mind. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 22:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
What's interesting here is that the way that Wikipedia policy works is that the editor inserting material needs to provide a reliable source to back up their edit. I have provided over 5, while Okedem and yourself and have provided a grand total of zero to support your position. But to humor you, I have answered your questions above anyway. Tiamut 22:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The first source you provided says nothing about the border between Egypt and Israel being defined and internationally recognized. Israel wasn't around in WWI, so it had nothing to do with any border definitions that were made at that time and we are in 2007 right now.
The second source you provided only proves the point that Israel's borders remain undefined. IT says clearly, ""This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of the territory."
The third and fourth sources state that the border with Lebanon is an armistice line and not an international border.
Finally, I did read the question. The only relevant response was the question I gave you. It matters not that there is a border between Syria and Israel. What matters is whether por not is is clearly defined and declared. the sources I have provided you with insist that Israel's borders are neither defined nor declared. And three of the four sources you have provided me with support that position. Tiamut 22:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I would definitely avoid the use of "undefined"; Israel's borders have been defined by the UN, by Israel itself, and surely by numerous other instances. The definitions are conflicting, however. What about saying that some of its borders are disputed? This is surely a clearer representation of the situation.
Whether it borders on the West Bank territory or not is once again a disputed situation. Why not use wording that makes the situation's ambiguity clear: "Israel borders Lebanon to the North, Syria to the North-east, and Egypt to the South. To the West, it has occupied the territory of the West Bank up to the Jordan River, bordering Lebanon." Hgilbert 13:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Border, from the Oxford American Dictionary: "verb [ trans. ] form an edge along or beside (something) : a pool bordered by palm trees. • (of a country or area) be adjacent to (another country or area) : regions bordering Azerbaijan | [ intrans. ] the mountains bordering on Afghanistan."
In other words, border as a verb makes no statement about legal status of an international border. However any border disputes are resolved, Israel always has and always (to whatever extent we can predict the future) border the Mediterranean to its west, Lebanon to its north, Syria to its northeast, Jordan to its east, and Egypt to its southwest. Israel also borders the West Bank to its east, as well, whether or not it's a sovereign territory; there is a recognized boundary, though not a border, demarcating the West Bank. Which also means that it borders Gaza to the southwest. I just don't understand how any of this can be controversial. It's worth mentioning somewhere else that the borders are disputed or not official or whatever, but the fact of where Israel is is not disputed, right? GUSwim 03:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The Culture of Israel section is very much lacking in sources, even in the main articles it links to, with the exception of the Education sub-section. The Zionism and Immigration, Economy, Judiciary, and Military sections also lack sources, as do the section 1950s and 1960s and 1970s.
There are a lack of sources for controversial claims:
"In a massacre in 1929, 133 Jews, including 67 in Hebron were killed and 116 Arabs were killed in the riots."
"Many Arabs, opposed to the Balfour Declaration, the mandate, and the Jewish National Home, instigated riots and pogroms against Jews in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jaffa, and Haifa. As a result of the 1921 Arab attacks, the Haganah was formed to protect Jewish settlements."
Further, sources cited do not fully support the formulations made:
"Israel is the only country in the Middle East considered to be a liberal democracy, having a broad array of political rights and civil liberties present.[5][6]"
There is still much unresolved controversy surrounding the designation of Jerusalem as a capital, and whether Israel is the "only liberal democracy in the Middle East", among other issues.
I have passed this article as GA. It is a very well written article and conforms to all guidelines at WP:GA. I might suggest cleaning up the external links ( WP:EL), otherwise, this page has been listed as a Good Article!-- TREYWiki 00:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I think there should be more mention of the scandal (in the past possibly) involving Israel's nuclear weapons and Nuclear Physicist Mordechai Vanunu who was placed in life imprisonment and how he was, illegally in international law by any strech of the imagination, drugged and abducted by the Mossad because he spoke to the British Sunday times confirming an Israeli nuclear program (as he claimed on moral grounds). He was abducted by Mossad for denouncing an illegal weapons program (as the UN has not allowed it, although refrains from checking finally on it) and Israel having no legal right to charge him whilst he was Italy, however he did break a contract of no dislosure in Israeli law. He was drugged by a woman he came to trust, who turned out to be a Mossad agent, and was in life imprisonment until resently living a life with numerous restrictions on his freedom and liberty of speech (which some view as illegal, although sympathy is often limited for him in Israel). Im not sure about this but I think there are rumerous that some of this harsh treatment was from his conversion from Judaism to christianity, or at least his reason for exposing the program may have been due to this. Appratnyl however one Mossad seniour agent claimed they didnt grant execution for him because "Jews don't do that to other Jews". I understand this may have been slightly POV, but to be honest everything ive said is true I think, and to neglect the scandal in the nuclear weps section maybe slightly selective as it practically verifies Israel's nuclear weapons ability and is illegal according to international law. Im no expert on this guy, so if someone who knew more about him were to put something in I think that would be great, I see no reason why he should not be mentioned in the article at all, as it was a fairly major incident, but I understand there maybe more than one POV on this and possibly any article on him himself maybe sufficient. Its also possible thsi was talked about in one of the archives in which case im sorry to reopen any old wounds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Disabled Illuminati ( talk • contribs)
Yes, I see your point, I got a little carried away at this isnt the place for political discussion, however I don't think my first point was irrelavant since the Israeli nuclear weps section is tiny anyway and the imprisonment of Vanunu pretty much confirms Israeli nuclear capability whilst the article leaves it in considerbale ambiguity. Also, Im not trying to say that other people are ignorant or anything of the sort, but I dont think the idea that 'everyone knows about Vanunu' is a valid one as this dosen;t stop information that supposedly 'everyone' knows being entered which is quite considerably pro-Israel and I don't think it is wikipedia's job to assume 'everyone' knows something, and at least for younger people like me I doubt that most people know about him (maybe arrogance? However I simply say this because I might have more easy acess to this informatio, and anyway I didnt find this out until recently, although my personal circumstances dont rely count). I think that because Vanunu really introduced a lot fo the controversy involving nuclear weapons in Israel it is neccessary to mention how this controversy came about, if only in a sentence.
Oh and I would jut like to ask if its okay, since I got carried away emotionally and let my own POV get over entagled in what I said can I please remove some of it? just for the sake of keeping the talk page relevant.
Responding to the comment below I put some irrelvant quite opinionated stuff in where im writing now, which I removed as it was written more in emotion and was not very helpful to the article.
This was placed in the "mislabeled" section above. Gracenotes T § 17:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
As per the GA listing comment - the suggestion was to tidy up the list of external links as I did. -- Flymeoutofhere 19:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
wikipedia's Hezbullah article states that Hezbullah and Israel had both been accused of War crimes by amnesty international cited with http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde020252006. However the word war crimes isn't even mentioned in the article. Kadhumia flo 20:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
An alternative to military service in Israel is national service in approved non-profit organizations. National service earns you the same benefits as military service, and recently a mostly arab and haredi youth targeting organization was approved, which is expected to improve arab volunteer participation. This would lessen the perceived inequality in benefits for arab and jewish sectors because the other is more probable to have gone through military service. Because of this I think national service should be mentioned in the article. See http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/865822.html Hyvatti 06:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Bahrain and Qatar are both democracies, and although they are ruled in part with islamic intrests in mind (as Israel is with MAINLY Jewish intrests in mind) they are both fairly liberal, at least liberal enough for 'only liberal democracy' to be disputed. If you were to argue back and say that they are not liberal, then you should also take the 'liberal' part ut of 'Israel ia the only liberal democracy' as although the religion plays a part in determing customs (as it does in most western coutiries, and to a large extent in Israel) relgious law (Shariah law?) does not dictate policy, and they are fairly liberal to other religions, and both men and women have the right to vote. Also Turkey IS a democracy (which is not ruled by islamic intrests, the reason for so many protests atm) its 'liberal factor' may be disputed, but as a highly ignorant and stupid westerner (who probably is directed to the 'best' parts of the country) I can say its pretty dam liberal, and has come on a lot in recent years, although is slightly repressive of the Kurdish and Armenian minorities (but so is Israel, to a degree, in its behaviour to the arab minority). If Moroco can be considered to be in the middle east thios is a fourth country which is fairly liberal and a democracy (although it technically is more of a constitutional monarchy, like Bahrain, and the UK). Im not saying that you have to change anything except by implying that 'Israel is the ONLY liberal democracy in the region' either change that or take away the liberal, because it is not really any more liberal than Turkey and it is definetly no more liberal than Qatar or Bahrain, which are both democracies. If you take away the liberal however you will be left with 'Issrael is the onyl democracy' which is factually incorrect anyway. I think its either that or change it to 'Israel is a liberal democracy' which is fair and true (to a generally western opinon). I think refering to a country (especially one which advocates being a state solely for one of the races present) as liberal is not helpful, as being lberal is (within reason) a matter of opinon and there are countries in the middle east that by some could be considered both more liberal and less liberal than Israel, jsut defining soemthing as 'liberal' seems a bit POV as liberal can be defined by ever changing criterion.
They both are, read the wikipedia articles on both, I did my wikipedia reasearch (the worst kind), they are constitutional monarchies like the UK. How can women be granted the right to vote when they are lead solely by a monarch? All the power is invested in the parliament. Mental Note 18:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Israel in your, and the freedom house's opinions, may be a 'liberal and free democracy' but there is no source that you have which says (and even if there was one, it could not factually state anything about the other countries, it would only present its opinion of a liberal democracy) that every other country in the middle east is not a liberal democracy. Whether you believe other countries are liberal democracies or not is a matter of opinion, but in an article about Israel, and solely Israel, it is simply the writers opinion whether other countries in the region are 'liberal democracies'. It is fair to say, with the freedom house source (quite biased btw, but acceptable I guess), that Israel is a liberal democracy (although I believe, personally, this is open to some debate, but thats not the point im trying to make), it is not fair to say, without any definition of a 'liberal democracy' given, that no other country is a liberal democracy.
We all know that there are several democracies in the middle east, the writer of this article does not have the right to judge them as liberal or not, as that is solely his opinion, the only way that the writer could say this is by stating the definition of a 'liberal democracy' then stating why each other country in the middle east is not a liberal democracy, and why Israel qualifies better for this status, as this is completly off topic anyway, there is no point in doing this, although I doubt even if there was the writer could find a reason why Israel is more liberal than Turkey (and Bahrain, which is basically completly democratic, and Qatar as well I think, although personally Okedem I think, although it is not my place I know, that you are judging Qatar and Bahrai as undemocratic just so you can say that Israel is the ONLY liberal democracy). Comments about other countries being liberal democracies or undemocratic should be confined really to those country's pages. I just dont like the way that the writer of this article seems to want to point score against other middle eastern countries, or at least express some nationlistic pride, by implying there are no other liberal democracies in the middle east, which is open to debate as we have seen on this talk page, and therfore should not be presented as certified fact.
Apart from the reasons I've given you, the actual comment 'the ONLY liberal democracy' seems to be some kind of boast or other, probably made by some Israeli proud of his/her nation (which he/she has every right to be if he/she wishes, but not on wikipedia articles). I see nothign wrong or provocative about saying 'Israel is a liberal Democracy' full stop, there is no need to comment about the democratic/undemocratic status of othe rcountries in the middle east. I also think th same is true to a certain extent with the bit about human development, now that may be relevant, but it shouldn't be put in the first part of the article like its trying to prove something or state 'Israel is the best', that should be included in its own section, or demographics possibly.
172.142.152.117 20:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh im sorry then =P, I guessed wrong It just seemed that way, the way its been left though seems to me to be some kind of pro-Israel boast even if thats not the intention. I may be the only one who thinks that, who knows, but I just dont think tis really relevant to highlight things that many people would consider better than other countires (although obviously you wouldnt) about Israel in the first paragraph. This may be more relevant in the section on politics, although even then I dont think we need to compare Israels system with other coutryies, especially since the other countries are generally arabic, and so have cultural differences and are difficult to compare to Israel's system of government (although I maintain many of them are 'liberal democracies' at least from many peoples point of view). Thats just my opinion and sorry for any undue criticism, but It probably looks that way to me because whoevers been editing this article has kept all the good and taken away all the bad and leaves this sentence quite inbalanced, as as I say I would assume many people view liberal democracies as a 'good' thing, this is mainly because of the use of the word 'liberal' which means free as far as I know, and I personally think it is a matter of opinion whether other countries in the middle east are 'free' or not dependign on what your defenition of 'free' is. 172.142.152.117 20:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it might be better to say something like 'Israel has the only western style liberal democracy in the middle east' becuase it is both true and I dont think there can be many objections on either side to that, perhaps some Israeli 'fend for themselves with 1/3rd of foreign aid, nationalists' may object, but I think its a fair compromise. I mena Im just a bit indignant because of the referance to liberal, I mean how liberal can a country be where there are so many parties that advocate pro-Jewish lines (to a possibly racist extent, although the same is not permitted the other way round) but there are seemingly none which represent both arab and Jewish intrests. That means in practice only the 80% Jewish pop need to bother voting because the other 20% of the other Israelis are never going to get anywhere in terms of fair representaion, which is not that liberal in my opinion (but thats just my opinion). I accept that Israel is a liberal democracy within reason, I just dont accept that this 'within reason' excludes all other countries in the middle east. 172.142.152.117 21:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Yer sure, I just dont want it to seem like Israel is neccessarily 'better' (in at least the opinion of many in the west), but Im not so troubled with it now, I was more concerned with the way it appeared to me (wrongly) to be written. Now I understand you wernt trying to prove anything by writing it Im not so bothered, though I still think it should be changed as it may not just be me that thinks that (although it might be I guess), and it might be interpreted as some pro-Israel over arab counties, opinon.
As El C has suggested above, it is equally noteworthy that Israel is holding the West Bank under military rule. There should be some NPOV and well-sourced way of phrasing this.-- Doron 04:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
My opinion here - first of all, since Freedom House rates all of the countries in the world, I can definitely say that using their data, Israel is the only liberal democracy in the middle east (Only one with a "Free" rating, which, according to them, means liberal democracy).
Freedom House doesn't include Turkey in the middle east section, but in Western Europe, for some reason. That wouldn't have changed anything, though, as Turkey only has a "Partly Free" rating.
Bahrain has a rating of "Partly Free" (5/5), and Qatar "Not Free" (6/5). I truly don't understand how anyone can call these countries liberal democracies, or even democracies. They're not. They're monarchies with a weak parliament.
Using the criteria of a Liberal democracy, Israel is one, despite some problems regarding treatment of the Arab minority (and many western countries have similar problems). Having a minority doesn't mean a country isn't a liberal democracy. Even the anon's claim about "there are so many parties that advocate pro-Jewish lines (to a possibly racist extent, although the same is not permitted the other way round) but there are seemingly none which represent both arab and Jewish intrests. That means in practice only the 80% Jewish pop need to bother voting because the other 20% of the other Israelis are never going to get anywhere in terms of fair representaion" is false. The only time a party was disallowed from running was when the ultra-right-wing Jewish party Kach was outlawed. If you read the platforms of the current Israeli Arab parties, you'll see they're not very tame. There are parties that represent both group's interests, like Meretz, or Haavoda (which currently has 2 Arab MPs, out of 19 total). That's not even a relevant point, and has nothing to do with liberalism or democracy.
HOWEVER - I never even wanted the "only liberal democracy" thing. I opposed it, in fact. I don't think it's relevant. Israel is a liberal democracy, regardless of its fascist neighbors. okedem 13:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Okay I get it now, I wont argue that Israel isn't a liberal democracy (even though I still think that can be aruged with, I just dont have the energy or sources to go on a one man mission), I just dont like the term 'only' because it seems to be dragging other countries into the equation and deliberately comparing them with Israel in an unfavorable way, I think Israel is a liberal democracy, is fine (although I think 'Israel is a western styled liberal democracy' may be better, though this is just my opinion).
Anyway fascist enighbours seems a little extreme =P, Its off-topic I know and im not going to argue it out, but that seems a bit, well I dunno, shaky as many would view Israel's pro-Zionist policiies as slightly fascist, Actually I dont 'fascist' is the correct term for any of th governments around Israel (although undemocratic and oppressive may be) as lebanon is more weak than fascist, Syria is socialist and Egypt is just big on religion.
(there was an irrelevent discussion here, that can now be found on my talk page. I put this message here because I don't know what to do with the following posts. Shyisc 21:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC))
Mind the spelling A dime a dozen 19:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh btw if your wondering about the changes form account to IP etc its simply because Im new to wikipedia and I also forgot my password to my above account, ill be more careful lol. A dime a dozen 19:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is not based on any published source, and seems to be nothing but the personal opinion of its participants, and therefore cannot be used in this article. The talk page is meant for discussions about how to improve the article, so I would kindly ask you to take this discussion to your user talk page. Thank you.-- Doron 19:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
This is a really minor thing but, though culturally European, Cyprus is a liberal democracy that is often defined as part of the Middle East geographically at least. Other than that I do agree the discussion is largly irrelevent in terms of improving the artical. Bored college student 00:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed two Hebrew sources that do not refer to what they are supposed to refer to:
Zeq, regarding the second source which you have brought back -- it is in the wrong context. The paragraph refers to 1991, whereas the claim was made regarding the 2002 conflict. Please remove it.-- Doron 21:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
"...and being the only country in the world to currently apply an appartheid system."
Really? Appartheid is a very loaded word(and almost always refers to South African appartheid). Could someone present an argument for this?
Israel does not have a "coat of arms" - it has an "emblem." The infobox needs correcting (and don't anyone tell me that this is Wiki style. It is not appropriate here).-- Gilabrand 10:39, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
This page has not commented on Israels illegal occupation of Palestine. I think there should be a sub heading which provides a link to the relavent pages. Also there is not a single mention of UN resolutions broken my Israel, (a record number btw) I also think that there should be a links, under sepearate headings about independent organsations such as Amnesty International, who have labelled the Israeli treatment of Palestinians as a 'War crime', again i dont think there should be much said about this on this page, but there should links provided to the other wiki's. This page is looking very bias, one sided, and from the looks of it, there are Israelis preventing people from writing anything which sights Israel in the bad light. 86.138.100.241 15:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Okay, here's a start:
-- GUSwim 22:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I disagree, an article about Israel that includes Israeli music should have room for a concise paragraph dealing with one of the most important political topics in Israel. As for the phrasing proposed by GUSwim, I have two minor concerns: (a) Saying that East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights were annexed is very inaccurate, for several reasons. In order to avoid this issue (which is covered in the respective articles), we can just say they were de facto annexed. (b) As Benjil correctly noted above, the de facto annexation of East Jerusalem took place in 1967, not 1980.-- Doron 00:23, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
What's wrong with East Jerusalem has been under Israeli civil law, jurisdiction and administration since 1967[42] and the Golan Heights since 1981, though they have not been formally annexed. All the topics mentioned here are already included. Yet another section, when there are dozens of subarticles containing every type of synthesis imaginable, seems to fall prey to the trend where every entry on this topic repeats the same information about the AIC again and again. The point of separate entries is in order to allow us to focus on music, sport, etc. Again, I'm not saying the information shouldn't be mentioned, but that since it already appears, it shouldn't be mentioned again. Tewfik Talk 02:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me if I'm being repetitive, but there are without exaggeration hundreds of pages on WP dealing with every aspect of the Arab-Israeli conflict etc., and creating yet another summary seems like the wrong direction, especially when this entry has direct links to so many of those pages already. I think it is reasonable to expect that people will follow those links, rather than create another address to maintain... Cheers, Tewfik Talk 18:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
well hang TEWFIK, is a summary about'Jewish underground groups' is given, why cant there also be a summary about the occupation, its legality may be included if needed.
86.132.119.135
00:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
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TEWFIK, you cant really be serious when you say ' hundreds. of pages on WP dealing with every aspect of the Arab-Israeli conflict etc., and creating yet another summary seems like the wrong direction '
it may be true that there are hundred of WP dealing with the conflict, but what better page to include the information then on a page that is directed related to the topic. I cant believe your suggestion of leaving the information out is that it has been included 'hundred' of times on other pages so shouldnt be included on this one. The occupation is one of the biggest issues in the world today, and leaving out Israels role in the occupied territories is criminal! And who are you to say it is a step in the wrong direction, why should your judgement on the facts deter the general public from drawing there own opinions of the facts! Giving a brief summary about the occupation and conflict is absolutely correct, and should be included. Why are you trying to hide the facts! Plus there are so many less important issues mentioned in the page, and i find it shocking that a issue of this magnitude is not being included as it displays Israel in some sort of a 'bad light'. Furthermore this page will never be given a higher status unless such important information is put in. And I also support the views of the user that posted the previous message on 5th of July. 81.132.224.10 23:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Shimon Peres, please update the info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Regime Redirects to this page of Israel, while "Zionist Regime" has a totally different meaning than "Israel". Next to that, no info can be found om this page about the subject "Zionist Regime" (like Iran adresses colonial politics only of both Israel, USA and allies). As far as I can see at this point, that term is used primeraly for colonial politics in the Middle East where "Zionists" are involved. Some Zionists aren't jews, some Zionists aren't Israeli and many jews and jewish Israeli's don't support Zionism either, so what does that redirection here??! Can someone restore that error + provide the proper page-info for "Zionist Regime"? -Many thanks. 201.192.17.90 06:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Hey there. I recently re-added the Palestinian conflict to the introduction (after it was deleted) and felt the need to state why. First of all, it is (arguably) the most important part of Israeli politics at the moment, and certainly the one that garners the most world attention. That also has been the case for some years now, and it's absence was glaring. My goal on Wikipedia has always been to eliminate bias, and I was careful to write in a way that was neutral and did not place the blame. It links to the pages for Israel's conflict with Palestine and also Israel's conflict with its Arab neighbors generally, without going into any detail or placing any blame. Furthermore, while stating that Israel has received criticism for this (as cited) I also noted that it has received support (again, as cited). Changes were recently made to the foreign policy section of the U.S. article that similarly reflect conflicting views of U.S. foreign policy. I did not make those edits, but awhile back I made similar changes to the actual United States Foreign Policy page.
I hope this describes my edit well, and helps you to understand why I made the entry. I sincerely hope it is not deleted in the future. My own opinion on the conflict is mixed, and admitedly I'm not as well-learned in the subject as I'd like. But I certainly think it is noteworthy and important enough that it should be in the introduction. SpiderMMB 03:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, to be quite honest, I think this article suffers from a very pro-Israel bias as a result, and I think that might have the opposite effect that it is intended to have. I'm not even opposed to the preceding (now only) paragraph in the lead that lists all of Israel's developments over other countries in the area. But I think this is a huge omission that people are afraid of because it potentially portrays Israel in a negative light. That's a little too defensive, I think. I appreciate your compliment that I tried to be neutral, because I really did -- my own perspective on the conflict being rather neutral itself.
But I still think the omission is glaring and unencylopedic. This is something that has been an important part of Israel's history since its inception (recent inception, mind you--i.e. post-colonial) and I think it's omission only serves the pro-Israel bias claims that I've seen on this talk page before. By way of comparison, it would be like not mentioning the Iraq War in the introduction to George W. Bush. What is it you'd like to see in a general mention? I'll reinsert the lead without mention of the "some support, some oppose" lines, and hopefully that will be acceptable to you and others. I don't intend to push this too much, but I think you should really consider how this omission makes the article appear POV. SpiderMMB 02:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough, but I'd like to explain what I mean a little further. The "pro Israel" bias I'm speaking of mostly concerns the introduction. After a brief factual introduction, there is practically an entire paragraph that says "Israel is the only country in the region that is this...most developed country in the region in this, this, and this." Mind you, my problem isn't that good things are being said about Israel, especially when they are cited, what I mind is: 1) the introduction is so short and 2) the percentage of the introduction which that statement takes up. That is why it strikes me as pro-POV. The paragraph I added sought to change this by making mention to a controversial conflict that is an important part of Israeli policy, and to do so(as you mentioned, and I appreciate you mentioning it) to do so in a way that was as neutral as possible.
Like I said, I don't intend to push this issue but I hope that that explains my position a little better. Even if you disagree, I hope you'll at least think about it when editing in the future. Regards, SpiderMMB 02:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Shalom, I have added a POV tag into the lead. The passage
The State of Israel was created in 1948. With a diverse population currently exceeding seven million citizens of primarily Jewish background and religion, it is the world's only Jewish state. Jerusalem is the capital city and seat of government.[4] Israel is the only country in the Middle East considered to be a liberal democracy, having a broad array of political rights and civil liberties present. In addition, Israel is considered the most advanced in the region in terms of freedom of the press, business regulations,[7] economic competition, economic freedom, and overall human development.
one sided to say the least. Is it beyond the abilties of the editors of this page to make the lead more neutral and encyclopedic and less like a piece of Israeli foreign ministry propoganda? ابو علي (Abu Ali) 10:53, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
My two shekels: there are lots of things you can say about Israel (as with any country, I suppose), but you should pick a few important ones for the introduction. The hard question is what is important and what isn't. Either the introduction should be a dry representation of Israel, in neutral geographical and historical terms, or it should also include some pro-Israel aspects as well as more controversial aspects. I agree with Abu Ali -- the intro reads like a pamphlet, which, more than anything, harms the credibility of the entire article (even though the rest seems rather balanced). Specifically, statements like "Israeli is the only ... liberal democracy" -- a neutral sentence would be "Israeli is a liberal democracy", which just describes Israel; instead, the phrasing in the article of this and other sentences is more about how much better Israel is than its neighbors. There are more superlatives here than in the intro to the article about the world's greatest superpower -- the United States. There's plenty of room in the article for regional comparisons, I don't think this is one of the things that should be picked for the introduction.-- Doron 10:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Responding to RfC: I don't like the introductory paragraph quoted above, partly for NPOV reasons but more because it's kind of frothy and omits important facts about Israel, namely (1) its unique situation of longstanding tension with neighboring countries and (2) its ongoing problems (external criticism and internal debate) about the occupied territories, which of course arises from the first point. Also, I wouldn't try to cram the stuff about Jerusalem into a footnote to the introductory section, as is done in the version currently in place.
Of course, it's easier to note flaws than to draft something better. I agree with okedem to the extent of saying that the RfC should've been deferred until there were two (or more) competing versions that we could be asked to comment on. As someone who hasn't edited the article, here's my first cut at it, which I hope could be improved by those more familiar with the subject:
The State of Israel ( Hebrew: , Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل, Dawlat Isrā'īl) is a country in the Southwest Asian Levant, on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. It borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the southwest. [4]
The population today is over seven million, with a Jewish majority. Israel is home to both Jews and Arabs, but is the world's only Jewish state. [5] [6] Israel is the only country in the Middle East considered to be a liberal democracy. [7]
The State of Israel was created in 1948. Many Arab countries did not accept the country's existence and immediately attacked it. As a result of a series of wars from 1948 through 1973, Israel now occupies large areas, parts of which it has controversially annexed. The status of Palestinians in these occupied territories has been a continuing subject of both internal debate and external criticism, and there are frequent outbreaks of violence arising from the issue.
The material that isn't included in this version would generally be appropriate for the body of the article. The point is that the introductory section should give a quick summary of the most important points. JamesMLane t c 18:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think we should change the existing lead inasmuch as it echoes other leads like that at United States, but we could add a brief history section:
The State of Israel was created in 1948, but many Arab countries did not accept the country's existence and immediately attacked it. The following decades were riven by conflicts with its Arab neighbours, while ensuing diplomacy and normalisation has been linked to the territories retained.
I still don't want to fall into the " recentist" trap where the whole Arab-Israeli conflict is overshadowed by one of its elements. Also, the territories in question weren't really acquired in 1948 or 1956, if parts of them were captured and withdrawn from then (and they are many things, but "large" is not one of them ;-] ). My main concern however, and my reticence to have any mention of history in the lead, is that it will automatically become a "POV magnet" of sorts, in that people will want to add in whatever part of that history they feel casts "their side" in the best light. Let me know what you think, Tewfik Talk 04:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I think it is enough to say that Israel is a liberal democracy (leaving out the "only", whose purpose is really to say something about other countries in the region, not the subject of this article) and mention very briefly that Israel has been controlling the West Bank and Golan Heights since 1967. As for the history passage, the phrasing suggested above looks reasonable, perhaps change the first sentence a bit to something more neutral like "...was created in 1948 amidst war with neighboring Arab countries" in order to avoid endless attempts to balance this issue. For more information, the reader can refer to the relevant sections and other articles.-- Doron 19:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I understand your point, but mentioning reality need not be considered racist. Verifiably unique attributes may be understandably uncomfortable for some, and a wise person knows when and when not to mention them, but there is no reason to deny them placement in an encyclopaedia. Tewfik Talk 08:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I suppose you're entitled to seeing the wording as "crass" or "solecistic", but I'm totally at loss as to what might be construed as "barbarous" or "jingoistic". The liberal democracy point is based on the Freedom House index, which I believe does not define Lebanon as such (though I haven't checked in a bit), and which like the human development index is standard fare on country entries. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 06:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
A bit archaic, but I admit that I find such usage refreshing. As far as I know, Freedom House is the premier index for such things, and anyways, the label is that of liberal democracy. No one is claiming that Lebanon is not an electoral democracy, which is somewhat different.
Lebanon is not an electoral democracy. Electoral districts are blatantly gerrymandered to ensure the reelection of incumbent deputies. In contrast to the last three electoral cycles, the 2005 parliamentary elections were monitored by international observers, who judged them to be relatively free of interference by the authorities. However, vote buying was reported to be rampant. The Lebanese government is currently reviewing a draft electoral law proposed in June 2006; the debate will prove contentious as politicians are deeply divided over redistricting.
outdent: What is amazing is how few of the regular contributers to Israel related pages see anything wrong with the lead and the number of editors who are actually prepared to go on the record to defend it. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 20:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Just a thought: one solution may be just to add a little more material, to lessen the focus on those two sentences. If you look at other countries, a little puffery may not be unusual or even so bad, but is usually mixed with a few more details. I don't know if other solutions are forthcoming, but that may help some. Mackan79 05:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
As someone who mentioned POV problems with the lead not too long ago, I'm glad to see it being discussed in such detail. However, I'm worried that for some, the current debate is losing focus and turning more into a "my side/your side" situation. As such, I'd like to revist a proposed lead that was drafted by JamesMLane and well-received by people on both sides. I've also rewritten it to address some concerns that were raised, namely by okedem.
The State of Israel (Hebrew: מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל (help·info), Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل, Dawlat Isrā'īl) is a country in the Southwest Asian Levant, on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. It borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the southwest.[4]
The population today is over seven million, with a Jewish majority. Israel is home to Jews and Arabs, though these are not the only religions present, and is the world's only Jewish state.[5][6] Israel is a liberal democracy, having an array of rights and freedoms that some consider to be absent from other countries in the region.[7]
The modern State of Israel was created in 1948. Many Arab countries did not accept the country's existence and refuse to recognize Israel today. This has resulted in a tense sitaution between Israel and the predominantely Arab population of the Middle East and resulted in several conflicts, the most prominent being the six-day war and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
I think this is much more academic and encyclopedic. It lays a lot of the facts on the line without leaning too far to taking any one position. I hope that the version above remedies most of these problems, and more importantly, I hope that the revised statement above will return us to a civil discussion, resulting in a lead that all are happy with. SpiderMMB 07:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
- The State of Israel (Hebrew: מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל (help·info), Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل, Dawlat Isrā'īl) is a country in the Southwest Asian Levant, on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. It borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the southwest.[4] Jerusalem is the capital, seat of government, and largest city, though many nations do not recognize this and most embassies reside in Tel Aviv.
- The population today is over seven million, with a Jewish majority. Israel is home to Jews and Arabs, though these are not the only religions present, and is the world's only Jewish state.[5][6] Israel is a liberal democracy, having an array of rights and freedoms that some consider to be absent from other countries in the region, and has been ranked as having a high human development index relative to its neighbors.[7]
- Israel declared its independence in 1948 after the United Nations approved the partition of the British Mandate of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state in November 1947. Many Arab countries did not accept the country's existence and some refuse to recognize Israel today. This has resulted in a tense sitaution between Israel and the predominantely Arab population of the Middle East and resulted in several conflicts, the most prominent being the six-day war and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel has, however, normalized relations with some of its neighbors, most notably Egypt and Jordan.
'liberal democracy' has to be cut. Its an old myth and propaganda slogan, with little encyclopediatic value. We have no objective definition of utilize for this classification, and I think grading countries into liberal democracies, semiliberal, pseudoliberal, etc., should be avoided. In practice the slogan of 'the Middle East's only democracy' is just a euphemism for saying that Israel is part of the Western world and civilization. It has little to do with existance of multiparty system (present in several neighbouring countries), press legislations, civil rights (Israel hasn't exactly been spared of criticism by UN and other international institutions regarding this) etc. -- Soman 06:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
"Having a broad array of civil liberties present" is not English. Sorry. Same goes for the rest of the section, which is badly written, hence my edits. The trouble is, you've been looking at this wording for too long and think there can't be any other way to write it. I am looking at it with fresh eyes, and I'm telling you - it is bad.-- Gilabrand 06:40, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Given that the majority of the international community does not recognize Jerusalem as the legitimate capital of Israel, it is wrong to state in the article that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. It is better to state that it is claimed to be the capital of Israel by the government of Israel, which must respect international law that denies it the right to place its capital in Jerusalem. Robert 12:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Jerusalem is internationally recognised as OCCUPIED TERRITORY, the official capital IS Tel Aviv. Jerusalem cannot be called the capital as it is not, this gives people with no knowledge of the region misinformation. In the event that a news station outside of the state of Israel refers to Jerusalem as Israels capital, an immediate retraction and is corrected statement is usually issued (as in a recent BBC news error) so, yes it does matter. I suggest that the Uk should change her capital to Paris as hey, we decide our capital. Stick to FACTS wikipedia.
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Ah yet another example of Israeli propaganda. The reason why the international community does not recongise
Jerusalem is because it is under occupation, and under the fourth geneva convention no country has the right to claim the land until disputes are not over, they also are not allowed to build settlements, block roads, deprive the people of the occupied land, all of which Israel does and in doing so breaks International Law. I dont see a liberated Palestine, so Jerusalem can not be proclaimed its capital as it wasnt before the occupation began. And could the Israelis please stop saying that the international community does not have a say, because was it not the international community (UN) that gave Israel its independence. A country, does certainly have the right to chose its capital, but not when that country is occupying, its against international law, and well establised facts that all 191 countries obey, without it theres no stopping one country invading another! we dont live in the stoneages, we have laws for a reason!
this brings me nicely on to the fact about the occupation that Israel is implementing and has been for the past 40 years. like i said before not mentioning it does not portray the full facts. Its all half truths and half lies being used by the Israelis on this wiki, that try to stop people from knowing the truth about there somewhat evil country. Stop cherry picking the information you want the general public to know, im not asking for tons of information being added, but small paragraphs like the others!
81.132.224.10
00:24, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I have been working on shortening the lengthy History section in this article for the past month (I know... that took way too long; I've been thoroughly distracted). The results of this endeavor is located at User:Tariqabjotu/Israel history. Essentially, the history section in a country's article is supposed to be a summary, especially since we have a History of the State of Israel article, which itself needs some help. Note, as an example, the United States article. The editors there have done a terrific job of summarizing the extensive American history, which itself has a main article, History of the United States, and several sub-articles, including one dedicated to just nine years of history. What are your reactions to my rewrite (ignore the fact that there a few sources; that can be hashed out later)? -- tariqabjotu 19:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Western Asian Levant??? This article is getting weirder by the minute. Who came up with that doozy of a description?-- Gilabrand 18:24, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
The State of Israel (Hebrew: מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל (help·info), Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل, Dawlat Isrā'īl) is a country in Western Asia on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. Located in the Levant, it borders Lebanon on the north, Syria and Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the southwest.
Hi I noted that the references were not showing correctly on this page, so I corrected some of the basic reference syntax. If I did something wrong please acknowledge and advise..! Contact me on my talk page if I made some errors or caused a problem! Reuv 21:05, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
SeiteNichtGefunden has been kind enough to gift us with the horribly misleading and incorrect statement: "Groups such as Amnesty International[13] and Human Rights Watch[14] have been critical of Israeli policies with the United States government being the only major ally of Israel." I would simply revert it, but I am not sure how to best word it. There are plenty of organizations worldwide which are supportive of Israel, and a number of governments which are Israel's allies. If someone more knowledgeable as to precisely which organizations and countries they can cite would do so, I would appreciate it, and the project would certainly benefit. LordAmeth 22:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I had a look at this, as its clearly misinformation. The whole section seems to be taken from an newspaper article/blog, and is wholly inaccurate. If you take a look at the Science Citation Index, it is clear that the US is first in this, with 35%, followed by the United Kingdom, 8 percent; Japan, 7.3 percent; Germany, 7 percent; France, 5.2 percent; Canada, 4.5 percent; Italy, 2.7 percent. This needs to be re-written to reflect the facts. With the figures normalised to 10k per, Finland and Switzerland are higher. I think the blog is specific to one year. scope_creep 21:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Since this ended with no consensus one way or another, I'll start this again -- why is it forbidden to mention that Israel borders the West Bank and Gaza Strip?-- Doron 21:37, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Doron about that - the West Bank is not even asserted by Israel to have been annexed. That said, however if they were left out, it would not be on grounds of independence per se, but that the status of those territories are complicated - that is to say that Israel is the occupying power of a territory that doesn't legally belong to someone else, and as such doesn't "border" [at least the West Bank] in the traditional sense. Perhaps it would make more sense to refer to the Palestinian National Authority's autonomy. Tewfik Talk 09:12, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
After reviewing several featured articles on countries, including Bangladesh, Belgium, Pakistan, Japan, South Africa, India, Indonesia, and Australia, I did not find in any of them a separate section devoted to human rights. All featured articles on countries have more or less the same structure to which this one must stick as well. Beit Or 19:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
A separate section on Israel and nuclear weapons is too much for this article. What we need is one or two sentences, saying that officially Israel follows the policy of deliberate ambiguity, while such and such authoritative military experts believe Israel to possess so many nuclear warheads. The experts, however, must be authoritative and the sources reliable. Beit Or 20:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I have tried to get this point across before, to no avail. The lead is being fought over endlessly because it is arrogant and in-your-face. I offered a revision a while back that was promptly reverted by one editor, and was thereupon lost in the heaps of revision attempts since then. It is not the introduction that I would choose to write myself, if I were creating it from scratch, but based on the material that is already there, here is my suggestion:
The State of Israel was created in 1948. Today it has a population of over seven million people, with a large Jewish majority. While Israel is home to both Jews and Arabs, it is the world's only Jewish state. Jerusalem is Israel's capital city and seat of government. The official residence of the President of Israel, the Knesset and the Supreme Court are located in Jerusalem. The Basic Law: Jerusalem states that "Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel". However, the Palestinian Authority regards East Jerusalem as the future capital of Palestine. The United Nations and many countries do not accept the Basic Law, arguing that Jerusalem's final status will be determined in negotiations with the Palestinians. Most of the countries that maintain diplomatic ties with Israel have thus relocated their embassies to Tel Aviv. Israel is the only country in the Middle East today that qualifies as a liberal democracy. Citizens of the State of Israel enjoy political rights and civil liberties that are not granted in the countries around it. Freedom of expression and freedom of the press are also strictly upheld. Israel has a free market economy, encourages competition and investment, and attributes great importance to human resource development.-- Gilabrand 11:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I adamantly believe some of the recent changes to the #Independence section are unnecessary (and to some extent incorrect). I can't locate the source entitled "Statistical Abstract of Israel No 51. 2000" so I cannot confirm whether it says 600,000 Jews arrived in Israel between 1948 and 1951, but an article from The New York Times says that same number of Jews, 600,000, moved from Arab lands to Israel between 1948 and 2001. Clearly, there's an issue there. This segment –
Over the years immigration waves have placed enormous stress on the social and political infrastructure of Israeli society. After 1948 they provided the human material for a massive settlement drive in areas occupied during the 1948 war. In many areas Jewish refugees lived in tent cities known as Ma'abarot for some years before permanent dwelling was provided by the state.
– and the number of Jews who arrived from North Africa seems unnecessary for a section that is only supposed to be a summary. The latter number also appears to conflict with the New York Times source. The changes to those sections should be reverted; the previous version seemed perfectly fine (or at least better than this version). -- tariqabjotu 22:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
A Haaretz piece reproduced on a Sephardic/Mizrahi website says "Some 750,000 Jews immigrated to Israel from Arab countries in 1948-1952". Tewfik Talk 07:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that "foreign relations & military" should be merged - even if this is true for other countries. Both are complicated subjects in Israel's case, and there is really no connection between them (unless military confrontations with the Arabs are considered a form of foreign relations).-- Gilabrand 20:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
In my last few edits I removed the extensive geography from the lead as it was not really representative of the section, and was disproportionate both to the rest of the lead, which is already on the long side owing to the country's complex history, as well as to the treatment given in FA article leads (which I presume is where all this is heading?). I also restored a few other details that I thought were key and did not take up very much room. I removed the nuclear stuff, as it was also far out of proportion to coverage on United States, which actually used them in war, and an FA like India, which conducted tests. I think we might also be short on appropriate images: for geography, if editors don't want a topographic or climate map, perhaps we can produce a montage with some of the diversity. The desert image is quite nice, but it isn't representative (or is my objection crazy ;-] ?). A nice picture of diversity in contemporary society would probably also be a good addition, and while the associations with Israel are probably already military-heavy, perhaps a better image could be found than the mostly white emblem? Let me know, Tewfik Talk 06:56, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
The extended geography section in the lead doesn't change whether it is or isn't propaganda, as you put it. I encourage everyone to take a look at other featured country articles, whose format we should aim for regardless of whether this becomes an FA or not. Tewfik Talk 08:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Can we just get rid of this –
The Israeli Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty seeks to defend human rights and liberties. Reporters Without Borders reported Israel 50th out of 168 countries in terms of freedom of the press, highest among Middle Eastern countries and just ahead of the Japan. [8] In addition, Israel is also the only country in the region to have its press ranked "Free" by Freedom House. [9]
– paragraph? It is so out of place and completely irrelevant to the other content being discussed in the government section unless we provide some sort of context (such as the fact that Israel has gotten quite a bit of criticism over human rights). Additionally, Israel's status as the Middle East's most free country is already addressed in the the introduction. -- tariqabjotu 17:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I notice that the article has undergone dramatic and rampant revisions in the past few weeks. I have to voice my opinion that these revisions are making the POV problems in this article worse, not better. I was encouraged to find a long and intelligent debate on the topic of POV problems in the lead, but sadly that discussion seems to have halted, once more. I now notice that the Human Rights section, which at one point was balanced and presented both perceived problems and higher developments in Israel's human rights, has now been shorted to a few sentences that only mention the good things about Israel's human rights record. I understand why someone would think that an entire section devoted to Israel's human rights might be misplaced, but cannot agree that shortening it so that only positive statements are reflected is the way to go. I'll stress again that I don't think there is anything wrong with mentioning Israel's better positions relative to other countries in the region, but it is extremely unacademic to allow only good things about Israel to be edited into this article. I was afraid that had happened with the lead, and I fear that is now happening to the entire article.
By way of example, the foreign policy section of the United States at one point mentioning nothing about negative perceptions of American foreign policy. At one point it was much the same as the Israel article, with even one survey mentioning the low opinion of America's standing in the world following the invasion of Iraq being edited out. But in attempt to get featured article status, a compromise was reached. The US article is still not featured, but I think everyone involved in the process of making it better would agree that it has improved dramatically. You will notice, when you read it now, that it is balanced in the way it presents American foreign policy. It has become less about promoting the United States, and more about informing the readers about America and all the views that accompany it. At the same time, it does not do America a disservice, continuing to list beneficial things about it such as its economy and its standard of living.
I don't suppose that this plea to the editors of this article will meet with much success. Attempts at discussing this and editing anything into the article have been met with constant reversions. I don't blame just the pro-Israel editors, because the anti-Israel editors have made it just as difficult to make this work (as the discussion about the lead will show). However, I do hold out hope. Because I know that there are pro-Israel editors here who recognize the POV problems in this article, and who have shown their ability to have an intelligent discussion on the matter above. I know that some of you are defensive on this issue, and I understand why. But I also hope you see that editing out all the criticism, and editing in only positive reviews of Israel's record, is unencyclopedic and may ultimately having a detrimental effect on how this article is academically viewed. SpiderMMB 04:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I think there's way too much stuff about human rights. In contrast there is practically nothing about the people and their history. Which should be a central feature of the article. What's happening is that everything is written from a perspective of the conflict,the history section is entirely about wars. The conflict centred writing is also why you are so concerned about human rights. It is obvious from the tone of your comments that you are far more interested in the conflict then you are in Israel - and that you have probably never visited the country. It seems to me that if you want to discuss human rights in Israel you should open a seperate entry and put in a link, or move it to the entry discussing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Otherwise it doesn't warrant more then a couple of sentences. Telaviv1 14:11, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I accept your points about the Human Rights - its OK but I think the history section needs improving, the early years are all about wars while the later ones have too much detail. I think more space should be given to the impact of immigration on Israeli society. Incidentally it doesn't mention Ben-Gurion. It should probably be built to provide links to the relevant pages. Telaviv1 21:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I want to apologize if anyone found the tone of my post condescending or offensive, as did Tariqabjotu. I didn't mean to imply that there are no neutral editors here. The points I raised were particular to this article, but the overall problem is Wiki-wide and I've mentioned it on many other articles as well. It's simply the nature of Wikipedia, and what keeps an otherwise revolutionary medium from being taken seriously in the academic world, even to the point of being banned. But I can see how the tone would be offensive and apologize if anyone took it as such.
Back to the article at hand:
SpiderMMB 17:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)Within Israel, policies of its government are often subjected to criticism from the left and right by its press as well as by a vast variety of political, human rights and watchdog groups such as Association for Civil Rights in Israel, B'Tselem, Machsom Watch, Women in Black, Women for Israel's Tomorrow, among others. According to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, Sephardi Jews "have long charged that they suffered social and economic discrimination at the hands of the state's Ashkenazi establishment." [10] Btselem, the Israeli human rights organization, has stated that Israel has created in the West Bank a regime of separation based on discrimination, applying two separate systems of law in the same area and basing the rights of individuals on their nationality. [11] Such criticism has also led to Israel's press being ranked as most free in the region. According to the Reporters Without Borders (RWB), "The Israeli media were once again in 2005 the only ones in the region that had genuine freedom to speak out." [12] RWB ranked Israel 50th (tied with Grenada) out of 168 countries as regards freedom of the press, the highest of any country in the Middle East and just ahead of the United States (53rd). [13] In addition, Israel is also the only country in the region to have its press ranked as "Free" (28 on the scale 1-100) by Freedom House, though the Israeli-Occupied Territories/ Palestinian Authority were ranked "Not Free" (84 out of 100). [14]
Yet again the Israelis on this wiki have failed to mention one of the biggest allegations that Israel has against its name, that is of 'War Crimes'. What is it going to take for these people to stop there acts of propaganda and to stop hiding the basic establised factual truth. This page has some information that really goes of in tangents, from the culture of Israel to its sport, which is all fine, but why isnt there a effort being made on controversial issues regarding Israel. Amnesty International along with the UN have been claiming Israel is responsible for some of the most digusting crimes against humanity, not mentioning it is just injustice to the innocents that have fell victim to Israeli aggressive occupation. I believe someone should make an effort to stop these propagandists from detering, and hindering the truth. Im not asking for pages and pages on the issue, just a mention would be fine along with leading links to other wiki pages! ill be happy to right the page and provide solid information about the claims, but i fear it may deleted as the Israelis cant actually handle the truth about there country. 81.132.224.10 00:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
lol, mate that not be talking there, that has been reported and documented, ill show you the links and sources! Its a fact that Israel has oddly 'mistakely' killed thousands of innocents under there 40 year occupation. The UN and Amnesty international have reported that Israel is one of the biggest abusers of International law. I have the ffacts! but of course okedem cant handle the truth about his beloved Israel. Its rather dissapointing, when efforts to portary the truth on WIKI is denied by the Israelis that dont want the world to know hoe evil Israel is. quite sad! I
81.132.224.10
17:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I cant believe this, im talking on the topic, and have been saying why the information must be included on the wiki, and you start abusing and name calling me. I shall be reporting you to the main moderator also for threatening to block me, which under wiki rules is forbidden. and please stick to the topic and improve this sorry looking page, and dont threaten me, its cowardly, really 81.132.224.10 23:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
yh nice try, take everything i say out of context! i justified all my points with arguments to further improve the wiki, im not bovered about attacking you, and please dont assume it is my primary target, because it isnt. listen to the points i make and the explanations i give, be open minded. And youve been reported to the admin for exploiting wiki rules and threatening me with bans 81.132.224.10 13:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Im off to a bad start? ive been a wiki user for longer then you, and am familiar to wiki more then you think, i just havent been able to use my proper account, and again, this is a topic talk page, stop thinking your a hot shot, and stick to the issue rambo 86.132.121.162 17:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
okedem please, stop judging my behavior, i didnt ask you to, and its annoying please stick to the topic and stop with the personal attacks
86.154.85.87
23:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like a section to be included about the vast amounts of money Israeli officials are offering the Jews of African, European and the Islamic countries to give up there land to come to Israel. I have loads of relavent webpages of factual claims that clearly protray Israel tactics to pursuade these Jews. This topic should be enlisted in the wiki because it has been one of the main tactics used by Zionists to proclaim there 'biblically promised land'. I would also like to start a dicussion on this topic, as it was recently brought to light by many news broadcasters across the UK. I dont wish the topic to be very long, but a mension under a main heading relating all controvesial issues would be very informative to the user and will improve this wiki very much 81.132.224.10 00:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
hah!! okedem, i beg to differ. If topic about foriegn relations with turkey and japan can be discussed, i think this scandal can also be.I dont wish it to be talked about in detail, but under religion it should be. Israel has be caught out for exploiting the Jews of different countries and offering them money to give up there born soverienty, which the governments of there countries have been outright angered by. And it is important to note that it should be helpful to the reader, in order to make this wiki better how Israel gets the money to manage this and yet recieves more Aid then any other nation in the world! 81.132.224.10 17:10, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
It is a scandal, when you think about the facts. Israel is recieving aid, some of which more desperate people around the world can do with and using it to lure people to Israel. And its digusting how Israel seems it can buy citizens based on there religion, its sad and a scandal. Do you think the Christian and Muslim people around the world, that are living in worser conditions then the Jews would give anything to be Jewish. Its explotation!and a rather big scandal, which the BBC, SkyNews France24 etc have all reported on. Its appauling to think the money the US tax payers give go, not to the people that are dying, but to people who are luring people because of there religion. 81.132.224.10 23:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
okedom, this is not a talk page. I am just giving suggestions to improve this page, your not helping by attacking. you should know the wiki rules 'be welcoming'. I think if i gave the evidence of the aid and the luring tactics, it would help others who are interested in improving the page, rather then your continual boring rants.
Ill start making up the para asap! 86.132.121.162 18:24, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
your debating the morals here, not the facts. No other country in the world pays certain individuals to become citizens of there nation because of religious believes. I dont care what you think, and what you think other countries might do, Israel does it, so should be included in the WIKI. Furthermore, the luring of Jews with economic benifits is expliotation of the poor. The Israelis are in a sense buying citizens, and asking people to sell there sovegien identity, thats what i know from the facts, but even so there should be a suggestion to what israel does. and it was a typo, this page is not used to express personal views, so stop it! 86.154.85.87 23:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
First you say: "Furthermore the luring of Jews with economic benifits(sic) is expliotation(sic) of the poor." Then comes this gem:"This page is not used to express personal views, so stop it!" Do you even read you own stuff before you post it? Schrodingers Mongoose 18:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I think there should also be a topic included in this wiki, that discusses the amount of aid Israel recieves, which makes them so capable to advance in such high fields. It would also explain to the reader how a small country the size of Israel has become to rich, yet recieves aid, so quick. This should really be incoperated with the occupation, as some analysts do say it would have been impossible for Israel to maintain the 40 year occupation it does without the aid. However it could also be included in the defence section, which discusses the issues on Israel nuclear capabilities. Either way, it shouldnt be touched on that much, but small didication to other web pages should be made. It is very relavent in its advancement in recent decades and would be very informative! 81.132.224.10 00:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
okedem Your a typical Israeli that cant really face the harsh realities of Israel regime. And Egypt does not get anywhere near the amount of aid that Israel gets, this being more then the whole of Africa and South American combined. I have tons of realiable sources that i can point you to to confirm this. On the other hand can you prove that Egypt gets more military then Israel as you claim, and furthermore why did you find it relavent to bring up Egypt into the topic, when were tal;king about Israel. Israel has been able to occupy the WB and Gaza for over 40 years because of US military/economic aid, and i have evidence, so please stop spreading your propangandist lies! 81.132.224.10 17:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Nice tactic, yh sure go off the topic and rant about me not being civil. Do you even know what the word civil mean son! and im not making my comments to make friends, im doing it to improve this WIKI, something which you seem not to be important 81.132.224.10 23:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
hardly npov user 81 :) This is not a discussion forum... 130.91.98.31 07:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi 81, if you have "tons of sources", why not just link them here? It might add more weight to your argument than insulting people. -- Dilaudid 10:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
All of the american aid to Israel is restricted to be used for military purposes only. not only that, a significant part of it must be used for the purchase of american made weapons and military equipment. Even without counting the aid, Israel still has significantly higher military expenses than any other nation in the west. So I'm afraid that even if we specify about the american aid (and about the huge financial burden that is Israel's security budget in general), it won't help the reader to gain a better understanding of how "Israel became so rich". Apollo 11 12:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I would also like to see under the section of the religion, a small sentence or two, dedicated on Israel immigration situation. From the facts i have come to learn, and for which i have concreate proof, any Jew can be given Israeli citizenship and recieve the benifits from the Israeli government, even if they have no tie to the country. I think it would be appropreaite to put this infortmation in as it is of the upmost importance when looking Israels immgration policies. It would also be appro. to add that many international organisations have frowned upon Israel for granting citizenship to people who have no conncection to Israel, and denied the very people who had been living there over 60 years ago.any more comments would be appreciated! 81.132.224.10 23:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
No your wrong, Its based on the religion and not only ethicity (like the ethiopian jews. A Jewish convert can also apply for citizenship. I think it should be noted in the wiki. And there is no other country in the world that grants citizenship based on the religion they preach, that is why some international organisations have frowned upon Israel. 81.132.224.10 13:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
in simple words, religious based citizenship being used!! why isnt that included in the wiki. If i convert and become a jew, i can get an Israeli passport. This nonsense about jewish culture, is not the point here, even though people of jewish culture are also given a citizenship. 86.142.216.167 23:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Economy/gdppercap.html states a 2004 gdp per capita at approx 17,000 CIA fact book puts population at 6.4 million https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html
ah yes, the facts are right for every other country apart from Israel, seeing how it sees itself as superior to all other countries. The figures are incorrect, and outdated, please correct, and dont dispute evidence 86.142.216.167 23:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Some of the reference links are not scholarly links. Please investigate further. Shadibeidas 14:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Is the RFC issue now resolved? Can the RFC be closed? Eiler7 20:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
It's a nice idea to introduce "religious diversity" into the religious section, but devoting at least a quarter of the article to a few people who belong to esoteric religious sects is unacceptable, bordering on the ridiculous. Every time I try to add pertinent information to this article, most of it is promptly removed in the interests of "keeping things short and tidy." Religion in Israel is a very important topic. There is no listing of the zillions of Christian sects, no discussion of very significant differences between trends in Judaism, and no mention of Islam, when Islamic beliefs are central to terrorism in Israel today. So fine, keep the Bahai photo (nice pictures are definitely lacking here), but either add more info on other religions, or remove the overly detailed discussion of a handful of marginal religious groupings somewhere in Israel (or not even living in Israel, with just a temple here)-- Gilabrand 07:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Indeed Israel has decided to call the war the "Second Lebanon War" but Lebanon has called it the "July War". The fact that we are writing in the Israel article does not license us to only use the Israeli name. That would be akin to rephrasing the first sentence of Palestinian refugee to say "the Palestinian Exodus, the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة, meaning "disaster" or "catastrophe")" instead of "the Palestinian Exodus, which Palestinian Arabs call the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة, meaning "disaster" or "catastrophe")." So, I'd suggest either (a) removing the end of the sentence (like I did earlier) or (b) rephrasing the item to say "known in Israel as the Second Lebanon War" (specifying that Israel calls it that, and removing the link to Second Lebanon War, which is redundant with the "five-week war" link). I personally prefer the first option since (i) we already link to the 2006 Lebanon War article earlier in the sentence, (ii) what Israel calls the war is rather inconsequential, and (iii) we don't explain what the First Lebanon War was (and probably don't need to). -- tariqabjotu 18:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I hoped to come to the talk page to pre-empt the kind of comment Gilabrand made above, but unfortunately he beat me to the punch. I'm not here to monopolize the article, but when serious quality errors, such as ones caused by this edit, these edits, and these edits (in reference to the line breaks), are introduced, one should not be surprised if someone comes along to fix them – even if in a drastic manner. In reference to the line breaks, the line breaks were not merely put between paragraphs that had already existed. Piecing together the coherent paragraphs that originally existed would have been more difficult, in my opinion, because making all the section edits at once might have hit edit conflicts and other issues along the way (if you have not noticed, that is basically how I choose to re-write other, shorter, sections; this edit, for instance, took several hours). You appear to disagree. Fine. And maybe you're right. But the effect of either method would have still been the same. I didn't say I was going to "reintroduce certain bits later"; please don't put something in quotes unless you're copying something verbatim. I instead said that I "will attempt to merge content changes momentarily", which, unlike your misquote, (a) does not suggest I'm only going to put a few things back in and (b) shows an intention to more immediately fix the issue. Unfortunately, you hardly gave me an opportunity to fix the issue. You probably did not know, but when I was submitting the reverting edit, I repeatedly got a Wikimedia Error page. It wasn't until about fifteen minutes that I decided to just go back to the Israel article only to discover that my edit had actually went through the first time. I then proceeded to begin to merge the content changes back into the article, as I said I would, beginning with one of your edits.
So, I didn't use your exact wording regarding the Rabin assassination. So what? I have as much right as you to add information to the article. You split off the sentence regarding Rabin's assassination. Terrific; I don't care. I simply added the name of the killer as well as the part about Oslo Accords support rebounding (which you appeared to remove from the original version because it didn't fit in with splitting off the sentence). Saying the assassination "shook the country to the core" is media sensationalism; there's no need to be so dramatic. I was momentarily side-tracked by the fact that you had changed the sentence in the following section despite the fact that we both tentatively agreed on one phrasing, but you hardly gave me a chance to proceed to complete the rest of the merges as you reverted my revert (along with my content change) before the end of the hour.
You complain about my "blanket reversion of [your] edits" when no such thing took place. The only thing I reverted was the section entitled "The first fifty years, 1950s-1990s". You worked on the Culture section and the Education section and the Religion section, which I left alone, but the changes to the prescribed section from the history were hardly your doing, but almost entirely the work of Telaviv1 ( talk · contribs) (and, as I said, I was going to merge the content changes back in anyway). I don't know what you're trying to say out of this. That I'm making too many changes to the article? That I'm being pedantic about the quality of even specific sentences? Well, I'm sorry to inform you that is the way I will continue to work on this article (and any article I devote this much time to). I will look at all the edits since my last visit to this page and make changes to the work of others if I see stylistic issues or if something was inadvertently removed in the midst of another change. This is less an indictment of your (and others') ability to write, and more a tendency of some to edit more quickly, thereby sometimes introducing unwanted stylistic errors (like the ones noted in the first paragraph of this comment). So, in the same vein, I'm unsure where you got the impression that I'm ""rewriting"" (again with the misquote) "the information in substandard English". I tend to proofread my edits quite well and although I still do sometimes make mistakes, there appears to be nothing grammatically incorrect about this phrasing (which, as I said earlier, is a reflection of your wording with the introduction of two pieces of information).
There is no "system" of "reverting everything and writing that [I] will "reintroduce certain bits later"". Let's not exaggerate; I made one single edit. This article was in desperate need of help (particularly in the style department rather than the content department) and I have, as I'm sure others have, been doing their best to improve this article. Suggesting that my way of editing (whatever that way of editing may be) is unacceptable is, well, unacceptable. I'm not asking for a gold medal here, but my edits on the whole have contributed positively to the article. I'm more than willing to discuss pieces when others make serious objections to my edits or reverts (a lá WP:1RR), but asking for permission on the talk page for every edit (or even most edits) I make is unnecessary and counter-productive to improving this article in a timely fashion. -- tariqabjotu 19:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
why there is no information about Gini coefficient for israel? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.22.136 ( talk • contribs)
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suggested) (
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |accessmonthday=
ignored (
help); Unknown parameter |accessyear=
ignored (|access-date=
suggested) (
help)