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The population of Islay is just over 3000 inhabitants. I've some doubt here, locals told me that is is rather 9000/10000. Is there a source for this figure? Thijs - 12-07-05
I'm not sure that the weather stats for Tiree belong in this article arther than on Tiree and linked. Besides doesn't Tiree ofter hold Scottish the weather record for maximum sunshine? -- JBellis 17:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Does the following alteration make any sense?
Islay (pronounced in English as IPA: [ˈaɪlə], approximately "EYE-la"; in Gaelic: Ìle; pronounced IPA: [ˈiːʎə], approximately "EE-la")
Of course, some people pronounce it like "EYE-lay"... - calum 20:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Technically a Scottish person wouldn't pronounce it EYE-la but more like IY-la. I'm not very familiar with the IPA but in the guide ai is said to represent the sound in buy, high, ride and write, but in the Scottish accent buy and high don't rhyme with ride and write! As far as I can see with some Googling the correct IPA representation for the sound is /əi/ 92.11.41.240 ( talk) 21:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
In my travels to Islay I've been told that, unlike the stone from which the surrounding church (ruins) were built, that the stone for the cross itself is not native to the island, and is thought to come from Iona. I don't have any sourcing for this, so I haven't added it -- any ideas? -- BlindVenetian 09:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this link will provide good info? [2] and maybe this link can also be used in the churches section on the islay page? ronsteenvoorden 13 july 2007
The plaque describing the cross is slightly ambiguous as it says: "It was carved about A.D. 800, probably by a sculptor from Iona, from the local blue stone". Does this mean from the local blue stone of Iona or the local blue stone of Islay? -- Armin Grewe 23:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Islay is the fifth largest Scottish island and the sixth largest island surrounding Britain[citation needed].
I don't understand why Isla Fisher is listed as a famous native, when the only connection is that she is named after the island and her grandparents once lived there (for the second I haven't found any quote yet)?
That doesn't make her a native, quite possibly she has never even been on Islay. Shouldn't that line be removed? -- Armin Grewe ( talk) 14:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
It's uncited - by all means remove it. Ben Mac Dui 18:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm a bit puzzled by this paragraph (and not familiar with Janet & Colin Bord cited as reference). I particularly would question the accuracy (and meaning) of "...he stood barefoot on the imprints on the stone and, with his father's stone in his hand, was anointed King...". What is "father's stone", and when was the Lord of the Isles anointed King? A passage concerning proclamation of the Lord of the Isles from from History of the Macdonalds, Hugh Macdonald of Sleat, Highland Papers I (1914) is quoted by Ronald Williams in The Lords of the Isles ISBN 1899863176. p. 208. It's quite similar to the passage qouted from Bord, but longer and more detailed. And in the passage from Hugh Macdonald it says : "Then he received his forefathers' sword, or some other sword..." which makes more sense than "his father's stone". Regards, Finn Rindahl ( talk) 18:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Relating to the above comment, I would advise taking anything by Janet and Colin Bord with a grain of salt. They are New Age writers who often "interpret" Celtic history with a mystical slant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.107.185.105 ( talk • contribs)
I agree the present version makes little apparent sense. If you think the Williams' version justifies changing "King" to "Lord" or similar and "stone" to "sword", I would do just that. Ben Mac Dui 20:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Could you please double-check the definition of a "sea loch"? Loch Finlaggan is seemingly not a sea loch, but a completely land-locked body of water which drains with a stream. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.107.185.105 ( talk • contribs)
Re the re-instated material: "... Loch Finlaggan in northeastern Islay, near the present-day village of Caol Ila. The origins of the Lordship date back to the defeat of the Danes off the coast of Islay in 1156 by Somerled, but Finlaggan was populated long before the arrival of the Lords."
What are the problems with this?
The para than goes on to discuss the druids, about which there is negligible evidence, and, if the existed on Islay, would have lived more than half a millennium before this. In short it is at best misleading and arguably poorly-soured Celtic mysticism.
The Battle of Epiphany will re-appear, reliably sourced and in the appropriate section soonest. Ben Mac Dui 19:05, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
"Gaelic continued to exist as a spoken language in the southern Hebrides throughout the Norse period, but place name evidence suggests it had a lowly status, possibly indicating an enslaved population" I think the population may have been enslaved however all of the Norsemen became subject to the process of Gaelicization. Gaelic people and language were in majority. It is a little bit harsh to state "enslaved" population, It was a kind of symbioses. Fakirbakir ( talk) 18:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
It is not my wording but the source's. "Gaelic people and language were in majority" - interesting if true, but I'm not aware of any hard evidence for this. Jennings and Kruse write that the Norse settlers "had insignificant interaction with the previous inhabitants, either because they had fled, were killed, or had been taken into slavery abroad". Can you say more specifically what it is you would like to be clarified? Ben Mac Dui 20:06, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Yes, but this is about the late 11th century (and Man rather than Islay). We know that according to the Annales Bertiniani that the Norse were in control of the southern Hebrides in 847 "without encountering any resistance from anyone" and (as interpreted by Woolf 2007 p. 100) that the fate of the islands was more "traumatic" as evidenced by the disappearance of the Cenél nÓengusa and Cenél nGabraín in Arran/Kintryre although the Cenél Loairn & Cenél Comgaill on the mainland gave their names to Lorne, Scotland and Cowal. It is also know that in 870 Dumbarton was besieged by Amlaíb Conung and Ímar, "the two kings of the Northmen", who "returned to Dublin from Britain" the following year with numerous captives in their "two hundred ships" (Woolf (2007) p. 109) having smashed the power of the Kingdom of Strathclyde. We also know that just over 300 years later religious arguments for a separate see in the Isles included the difficulty of dealing with a Gaelic speaking population, but 300 years is a long time and written records for the intervening period are weak to say the least. This is what Jennings and Kruse say:
It is also known that Iceland received Gaelic-speaking slaves, although there is no record of any being taken from the Pictish Northern Isles.
The Norse were Christainised fairly early on - perhaps in the late tenth century and it may be reasonable to assume that slavery ceased to be fashionable at that point. I honestly don't think there is much dispute about the Norse proclivity for slave-trading in the earlier period.
Ben
Mac
Dui 15:43, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Unfortunately don't have the time to fix/edit it myself right now, but the information about two ships sinking at The Oa in 1918 is incorrect. It is correct (kind of) for the Tuscania, but incorrect for the Otranto. The Otranto sank in Machir Bay, where the very last remains of the wreck are occasionally still visited by divers. I'll try to get to correct it over the next few weeks unless anyone else is quicker. Armin Grewe ( talk) 20:31, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
It is rather unusual for there two be two similar sized "largest" settlements on Scottish island, but Port Ellen would seem to be the slightly more populous - albeit that Newton's figures are from 1981. Undiscovered Scotland don't provide figures. Haswell-Smith (2004) seems to think that Bowmore is the "capital" although agrees that Port Ellen is larger. Maybe both need to be mentioned in the lead/Infobox. Ben Mac Dui 18:09, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
What is the definition of main settlement/centre? Is it purely based on population or do other factors also matter? While I have no factual numbers (I don't know if they even exist) my gut feeling is that Port Ellen might be slightly bigger in population. If however other factors play a role many people would probably vote for Bowmore, as it is also the main administrative centre on the island. The islands high school is based here, the hospital, the tourist information centre, the main banks (and only cash points on the island), the largest supermarket, the pharmacy, the local newspaper, if I'm not mistaken also the "council offices", all are based in Bowmore. Armin Grewe ( talk) 21:52, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: MathewTownsend ( talk · contribs) 15:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi, I'll review this! Looks interesting and I don't know the area. MathewTownsend ( talk) 15:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
OK - I look forward to your comments. Hope you enjoy the article - it's a wonderful island. Ben Mac Dui 11:00, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
lede
Geography
Geology and geomorphology
Climate
How does the organization of this article compare with that of Outer Hebrides, in your opinion?
(will continue)
Notable people
Otherwise the article seems very well written and interesting. But I can't get by the citation problems. Could you explain how I can figure them out? It's effort to search from the footnote to the reference section.
MathewTownsend ( talk) 22:14, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
I asked Br'er Rabbit about the citation formatting issue and he said he could fathom it, so I won't be fussed. It's really quite a nice article. MathewTownsend ( talk) 18:18, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm trying to understand this article, and apologize for my difficulty and the fact that so many words are unfamiliar to me. Since I can't access the sources, I'm using the links to try to make the article more accessible to people like me that are not well acquainted with Islay. Hope I'm not mucking things up. Suggestions so far:
From WP:LEAD: "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article."
MathewTownsend ( talk) 16:03, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
There was mass forced emigration to the sea coast, the Scottish Lowlands, and the North American colonies. The clearances were particularly notorious as a result of the late timing, the lack of legal protection for year-by-year tenants under Scots law, the abruptness of the change from the traditional clan system, and the brutality of many evictions.
So the British kicked the Gaelic people out? And this was done by taking away their land? Or were they "removed" forcibly, like put on boats etc. and shipped off? This episode seems to be minimized in the article. Although the way the Irish were treated by the British is well known, in America at least (perhaps because there are so many Irish in the US), few know about the British kicking the Gaelic people out. I hope I'm not talking about something here that's not supposed to be mentioned. But it explains to me why Scotland may want independence. Now I am reading the Highland Clearances again, and read Enclosure - I know about the open land system etc. from going to school in the UK as a kid, so now I'm understanding what was happening. But never heard of the "Clearances". How really terrible. MathewTownsend ( talk) 13:55, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Nice set by Doc Searls , all free-licensed. I've added a couple already:
Best, Pete Tillman ( talk) 22:46, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
There are various identifications with Ptolemaic names, but Epidion is not the best. Skene (1886) V I pp 68-69 (you can find it on the Internet) is a standard who takes Ptolemy's rotation of Scotland by 90 deg. into consideration. Rotating Ptolemy's 5-island orientation counterclockwise places Maleus, surely Mull, on the west. The first island from Ireland is then Islay, which must be Ebuda 1. Epidium is to the north. Now, for the etymology of Epidion, the resemblance to a word formed in Greek ought to jog our attention. Ptolemy does not always use native words or representations of them. Sometimes he uses Greek or Latin words. The problem with the etymology given is that if Epidion has the Brythonic p, then Ebuda ought to be Epuda. Epidion is one of the Ebuda islands. Ebuda has been accepted as a representation of Hebrides, which is not Celtic. The names of the Hebrides are generally not Celtic. No one knows WHAT they are. So, Epidion very likely is not Celtic at all. Ptolemy did not know what it was so he formed it as though it were Greek. He was Egyptian you know, but as his name indicates, it was from the Graeco-Egyptian culture, which spoke cultured Greek, in fact, took pride in doing so. Your source made his linguistic proposal but there are serious linguistic problems with it. That's fine. we propose for the consideration of the scholastic village. Fine. It needs a second theory and to say that the first is only a theory. Ptolemy in general where he uses Celtic names is reconstructable as Proto-Celtic. The inscriptions show also that Proto-Celtic was later not earler. Ciao. Botteville ( talk) 15:38, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to submit a suggestion for formatting the references for your review. The current arrangement starting with refbegin, and lacking a refend, requires you to open the entire References section to access any of it. I don't see that anything is gained by that and it is awkward. I suggest making the two notes sections and the bibiography regular heading 3 subsections of the heading 2 references. You can still use reflist, which gives you the smaller typeface, and you can set the number of columns. Would it not looks better to have the same number of columns throughout? Botteville ( talk) 01:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to add to that. WP has a standard look, which it does not require be rigidly applied, but nevertheless is intended for the editors. It achieves this look by templates. I notice the references in this article are good imitations of that look but are mainly formatted by hand. I would suggest using the templates, which, chosen correctly and relevantly, never slip up and produce a uniform look. It would take some time to check everything of course, but there are additional benefits. For example, this article imitates "harvnb" mainly very exactly. But, use of the template gets you a link to the book listed below. You can access template pages by prefixing your searches with template:, such as template:harvnb Botteville ( talk) 02:02, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
I changed that quite a bit following Wikipedia:External links. I was sure to give plenty of reasons. In general, the links are often a weak point in WP articles. No one thinks to review them, and even if they do, it is easy for advertisers and bloggers to slip their material in. They are generally anything but honest and their sites bog down and entrap your system, wasting your time. Don't misuderstand, all you agencies are real super, members of the real people community. I love advertising. They are my best friends! As the stars say (aren't they invincible?), what's wrong with advertising? I defer this question to J. Wales, the boss. So far the decision is not to run ads of WP, unless somehow I have that wrong. Thjis article is a good article. I think it is too. I do not believe my changes will affect that. Botteville ( talk) 13:02, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
The largest settlement is Port Ellen rather than Bowmore, by a few hundred usual residents. The source is something of a problem. The National Records of Scotland abolished the site and put the data somewhere else, they say, but refuse to say where. Oh, just look it up, they say. Moot point. I found the map with the settlements on it. There are only two possibilities, Bowmore and Port Ellen. Excuse me, I don't mean to be difficult, but this website is not user friendly. A previous editor created a template for the population but this one is too difficult; besides, the Records Office just moves things around. It isn;t like Internet Archive, which has a portable id number and location for each work. So, what I am doing until someone thinks of a better way is cite web with selection instructions on how to get the populations of settlements. I'm not even going to think about all the notes elsewhere that use the abolished site. Botteville ( talk) 17:34, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
There is something of a consistency problem in citing this book. The editor gives the web site for the appins.org online version. Unfortunately this is not one book, but is three books bundled together. But, the bundle is not a book! It has no title and was never published on paper. The three scans were just combined. But, that is only the start! The scanner adds something to the title page, a notation, "CIRCA 1695." We don't know where that comes from because the first edition is dated 1703. The 1703 edition bears no such notation. Worse yet from WP point of view, this online version has no page numbers. Harvnb has a loc= parameter to cover this case and the editor in the reference to a quote has "Jura." The only trouble is, the book of 1703 has "Jurah." Moreover, the section head is quite a few pages away from the quote. But let's go on. This very book from which this Internet version was concocted is supposedly the copy bearing the note that Johnson and Boswell took it on a visit to Ila. Fine, we think. Something genuine. But then, we look up the very same book on Internet Archive hoping to get the page numbers. It says it is the same book as the one the two English authors ported for reference, but the work archived is the second edition! Which is much touted by Martin as much corrected. What we offer is the first edition. Martin did the second just before his death. Well, I finally did find an untramelled first edition, 1703, on Google Books. There is no such famous notation on it. Apart from visiting there, Johnson and Boswell haven't got a thing to do with Islay. If it is all right with you I am going to switch to this copy, state page numbers, and also give the section just as it is printed. Now, in our article, the English has been transliterated into modern letters. Well, I am not going to make a fuss about that. People have to read it after all. But, Martin has still more revelations. See next section. Botteville ( talk) 12:14, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Currently it is Scottish Gaelic. However, Martin (1703) says that in his day it was Irish. It seems that Islay previously belonged to Ireland and was taken over by Scotland in the British Empire days. In fact Ptolemy lists the 5 Ebudae Islands under the map of Hibernia, not under the map of Albion. Albion would not have been Scottish in his day anyway. The etymology section should spend more time on Ptolemy. I may have see to that myself, but if you can, go ahead! Botteville ( talk) 12:14, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
This old book by the priest, Monro, presents some bibiographic problems, which an editor has attempted to solve with a template. The template creates additional problems and it does not give us the standard WP format, so I want to replace it with a "cite book." WP has an article on this book. The book title however can take only one link. The editor has resolved on a link to the WP article. Fine, but that introduces a barrier to looking at the work, which is free on the Internet. First the reader has to go to another article. Then he has to locate which free copy he wants. The one prefered in the article is the same synthetic Internet image as for the Martin book, without page numbers! There is not and never was such a book. Moreover, the title is not right. We can do better. We can get it on Google. But, the book presents certain problems usually not found today. The publisher takes it on himself to combine a number of different independent books, all with different dates. This is the type of situation usually found in compilations today. We use "cite book" with named chapter typically for that, which also has a separate chapterurl. So, that is what I propose, with certain additional information concerning the date. That way we can give the pages without presenting a conundrum to the reader and he can actually look at the text, not someone's digest of it. We link in both article and Google book. Botteville ( talk) 08:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
This book appears in the notes, but not in the list of references. I found this reference in other articles on Hebridean islands:
Am I right in supposing this is the right one? Ælfgar ( talk) 11:57, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
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If Islay is a political entity with a government, the article ought to cover that fact. If it isn't, then it would be helpful if the article were to clarify what it means to say that Bowmore is considered the "capital" of a parcel of land that has no government to operate out of it. Largoplazo ( talk) 23:03, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Islay article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Islay has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
|
The population of Islay is just over 3000 inhabitants. I've some doubt here, locals told me that is is rather 9000/10000. Is there a source for this figure? Thijs - 12-07-05
I'm not sure that the weather stats for Tiree belong in this article arther than on Tiree and linked. Besides doesn't Tiree ofter hold Scottish the weather record for maximum sunshine? -- JBellis 17:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Does the following alteration make any sense?
Islay (pronounced in English as IPA: [ˈaɪlə], approximately "EYE-la"; in Gaelic: Ìle; pronounced IPA: [ˈiːʎə], approximately "EE-la")
Of course, some people pronounce it like "EYE-lay"... - calum 20:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Technically a Scottish person wouldn't pronounce it EYE-la but more like IY-la. I'm not very familiar with the IPA but in the guide ai is said to represent the sound in buy, high, ride and write, but in the Scottish accent buy and high don't rhyme with ride and write! As far as I can see with some Googling the correct IPA representation for the sound is /əi/ 92.11.41.240 ( talk) 21:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
In my travels to Islay I've been told that, unlike the stone from which the surrounding church (ruins) were built, that the stone for the cross itself is not native to the island, and is thought to come from Iona. I don't have any sourcing for this, so I haven't added it -- any ideas? -- BlindVenetian 09:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this link will provide good info? [2] and maybe this link can also be used in the churches section on the islay page? ronsteenvoorden 13 july 2007
The plaque describing the cross is slightly ambiguous as it says: "It was carved about A.D. 800, probably by a sculptor from Iona, from the local blue stone". Does this mean from the local blue stone of Iona or the local blue stone of Islay? -- Armin Grewe 23:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Islay is the fifth largest Scottish island and the sixth largest island surrounding Britain[citation needed].
I don't understand why Isla Fisher is listed as a famous native, when the only connection is that she is named after the island and her grandparents once lived there (for the second I haven't found any quote yet)?
That doesn't make her a native, quite possibly she has never even been on Islay. Shouldn't that line be removed? -- Armin Grewe ( talk) 14:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
It's uncited - by all means remove it. Ben Mac Dui 18:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm a bit puzzled by this paragraph (and not familiar with Janet & Colin Bord cited as reference). I particularly would question the accuracy (and meaning) of "...he stood barefoot on the imprints on the stone and, with his father's stone in his hand, was anointed King...". What is "father's stone", and when was the Lord of the Isles anointed King? A passage concerning proclamation of the Lord of the Isles from from History of the Macdonalds, Hugh Macdonald of Sleat, Highland Papers I (1914) is quoted by Ronald Williams in The Lords of the Isles ISBN 1899863176. p. 208. It's quite similar to the passage qouted from Bord, but longer and more detailed. And in the passage from Hugh Macdonald it says : "Then he received his forefathers' sword, or some other sword..." which makes more sense than "his father's stone". Regards, Finn Rindahl ( talk) 18:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Relating to the above comment, I would advise taking anything by Janet and Colin Bord with a grain of salt. They are New Age writers who often "interpret" Celtic history with a mystical slant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.107.185.105 ( talk • contribs)
I agree the present version makes little apparent sense. If you think the Williams' version justifies changing "King" to "Lord" or similar and "stone" to "sword", I would do just that. Ben Mac Dui 20:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Could you please double-check the definition of a "sea loch"? Loch Finlaggan is seemingly not a sea loch, but a completely land-locked body of water which drains with a stream. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.107.185.105 ( talk • contribs)
Re the re-instated material: "... Loch Finlaggan in northeastern Islay, near the present-day village of Caol Ila. The origins of the Lordship date back to the defeat of the Danes off the coast of Islay in 1156 by Somerled, but Finlaggan was populated long before the arrival of the Lords."
What are the problems with this?
The para than goes on to discuss the druids, about which there is negligible evidence, and, if the existed on Islay, would have lived more than half a millennium before this. In short it is at best misleading and arguably poorly-soured Celtic mysticism.
The Battle of Epiphany will re-appear, reliably sourced and in the appropriate section soonest. Ben Mac Dui 19:05, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
"Gaelic continued to exist as a spoken language in the southern Hebrides throughout the Norse period, but place name evidence suggests it had a lowly status, possibly indicating an enslaved population" I think the population may have been enslaved however all of the Norsemen became subject to the process of Gaelicization. Gaelic people and language were in majority. It is a little bit harsh to state "enslaved" population, It was a kind of symbioses. Fakirbakir ( talk) 18:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
It is not my wording but the source's. "Gaelic people and language were in majority" - interesting if true, but I'm not aware of any hard evidence for this. Jennings and Kruse write that the Norse settlers "had insignificant interaction with the previous inhabitants, either because they had fled, were killed, or had been taken into slavery abroad". Can you say more specifically what it is you would like to be clarified? Ben Mac Dui 20:06, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Yes, but this is about the late 11th century (and Man rather than Islay). We know that according to the Annales Bertiniani that the Norse were in control of the southern Hebrides in 847 "without encountering any resistance from anyone" and (as interpreted by Woolf 2007 p. 100) that the fate of the islands was more "traumatic" as evidenced by the disappearance of the Cenél nÓengusa and Cenél nGabraín in Arran/Kintryre although the Cenél Loairn & Cenél Comgaill on the mainland gave their names to Lorne, Scotland and Cowal. It is also know that in 870 Dumbarton was besieged by Amlaíb Conung and Ímar, "the two kings of the Northmen", who "returned to Dublin from Britain" the following year with numerous captives in their "two hundred ships" (Woolf (2007) p. 109) having smashed the power of the Kingdom of Strathclyde. We also know that just over 300 years later religious arguments for a separate see in the Isles included the difficulty of dealing with a Gaelic speaking population, but 300 years is a long time and written records for the intervening period are weak to say the least. This is what Jennings and Kruse say:
It is also known that Iceland received Gaelic-speaking slaves, although there is no record of any being taken from the Pictish Northern Isles.
The Norse were Christainised fairly early on - perhaps in the late tenth century and it may be reasonable to assume that slavery ceased to be fashionable at that point. I honestly don't think there is much dispute about the Norse proclivity for slave-trading in the earlier period.
Ben
Mac
Dui 15:43, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Unfortunately don't have the time to fix/edit it myself right now, but the information about two ships sinking at The Oa in 1918 is incorrect. It is correct (kind of) for the Tuscania, but incorrect for the Otranto. The Otranto sank in Machir Bay, where the very last remains of the wreck are occasionally still visited by divers. I'll try to get to correct it over the next few weeks unless anyone else is quicker. Armin Grewe ( talk) 20:31, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
It is rather unusual for there two be two similar sized "largest" settlements on Scottish island, but Port Ellen would seem to be the slightly more populous - albeit that Newton's figures are from 1981. Undiscovered Scotland don't provide figures. Haswell-Smith (2004) seems to think that Bowmore is the "capital" although agrees that Port Ellen is larger. Maybe both need to be mentioned in the lead/Infobox. Ben Mac Dui 18:09, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
What is the definition of main settlement/centre? Is it purely based on population or do other factors also matter? While I have no factual numbers (I don't know if they even exist) my gut feeling is that Port Ellen might be slightly bigger in population. If however other factors play a role many people would probably vote for Bowmore, as it is also the main administrative centre on the island. The islands high school is based here, the hospital, the tourist information centre, the main banks (and only cash points on the island), the largest supermarket, the pharmacy, the local newspaper, if I'm not mistaken also the "council offices", all are based in Bowmore. Armin Grewe ( talk) 21:52, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
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Reviewer: MathewTownsend ( talk · contribs) 15:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi, I'll review this! Looks interesting and I don't know the area. MathewTownsend ( talk) 15:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
OK - I look forward to your comments. Hope you enjoy the article - it's a wonderful island. Ben Mac Dui 11:00, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
lede
Geography
Geology and geomorphology
Climate
How does the organization of this article compare with that of Outer Hebrides, in your opinion?
(will continue)
Notable people
Otherwise the article seems very well written and interesting. But I can't get by the citation problems. Could you explain how I can figure them out? It's effort to search from the footnote to the reference section.
MathewTownsend ( talk) 22:14, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
I asked Br'er Rabbit about the citation formatting issue and he said he could fathom it, so I won't be fussed. It's really quite a nice article. MathewTownsend ( talk) 18:18, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm trying to understand this article, and apologize for my difficulty and the fact that so many words are unfamiliar to me. Since I can't access the sources, I'm using the links to try to make the article more accessible to people like me that are not well acquainted with Islay. Hope I'm not mucking things up. Suggestions so far:
From WP:LEAD: "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article."
MathewTownsend ( talk) 16:03, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
There was mass forced emigration to the sea coast, the Scottish Lowlands, and the North American colonies. The clearances were particularly notorious as a result of the late timing, the lack of legal protection for year-by-year tenants under Scots law, the abruptness of the change from the traditional clan system, and the brutality of many evictions.
So the British kicked the Gaelic people out? And this was done by taking away their land? Or were they "removed" forcibly, like put on boats etc. and shipped off? This episode seems to be minimized in the article. Although the way the Irish were treated by the British is well known, in America at least (perhaps because there are so many Irish in the US), few know about the British kicking the Gaelic people out. I hope I'm not talking about something here that's not supposed to be mentioned. But it explains to me why Scotland may want independence. Now I am reading the Highland Clearances again, and read Enclosure - I know about the open land system etc. from going to school in the UK as a kid, so now I'm understanding what was happening. But never heard of the "Clearances". How really terrible. MathewTownsend ( talk) 13:55, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Nice set by Doc Searls , all free-licensed. I've added a couple already:
Best, Pete Tillman ( talk) 22:46, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
There are various identifications with Ptolemaic names, but Epidion is not the best. Skene (1886) V I pp 68-69 (you can find it on the Internet) is a standard who takes Ptolemy's rotation of Scotland by 90 deg. into consideration. Rotating Ptolemy's 5-island orientation counterclockwise places Maleus, surely Mull, on the west. The first island from Ireland is then Islay, which must be Ebuda 1. Epidium is to the north. Now, for the etymology of Epidion, the resemblance to a word formed in Greek ought to jog our attention. Ptolemy does not always use native words or representations of them. Sometimes he uses Greek or Latin words. The problem with the etymology given is that if Epidion has the Brythonic p, then Ebuda ought to be Epuda. Epidion is one of the Ebuda islands. Ebuda has been accepted as a representation of Hebrides, which is not Celtic. The names of the Hebrides are generally not Celtic. No one knows WHAT they are. So, Epidion very likely is not Celtic at all. Ptolemy did not know what it was so he formed it as though it were Greek. He was Egyptian you know, but as his name indicates, it was from the Graeco-Egyptian culture, which spoke cultured Greek, in fact, took pride in doing so. Your source made his linguistic proposal but there are serious linguistic problems with it. That's fine. we propose for the consideration of the scholastic village. Fine. It needs a second theory and to say that the first is only a theory. Ptolemy in general where he uses Celtic names is reconstructable as Proto-Celtic. The inscriptions show also that Proto-Celtic was later not earler. Ciao. Botteville ( talk) 15:38, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to submit a suggestion for formatting the references for your review. The current arrangement starting with refbegin, and lacking a refend, requires you to open the entire References section to access any of it. I don't see that anything is gained by that and it is awkward. I suggest making the two notes sections and the bibiography regular heading 3 subsections of the heading 2 references. You can still use reflist, which gives you the smaller typeface, and you can set the number of columns. Would it not looks better to have the same number of columns throughout? Botteville ( talk) 01:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to add to that. WP has a standard look, which it does not require be rigidly applied, but nevertheless is intended for the editors. It achieves this look by templates. I notice the references in this article are good imitations of that look but are mainly formatted by hand. I would suggest using the templates, which, chosen correctly and relevantly, never slip up and produce a uniform look. It would take some time to check everything of course, but there are additional benefits. For example, this article imitates "harvnb" mainly very exactly. But, use of the template gets you a link to the book listed below. You can access template pages by prefixing your searches with template:, such as template:harvnb Botteville ( talk) 02:02, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
I changed that quite a bit following Wikipedia:External links. I was sure to give plenty of reasons. In general, the links are often a weak point in WP articles. No one thinks to review them, and even if they do, it is easy for advertisers and bloggers to slip their material in. They are generally anything but honest and their sites bog down and entrap your system, wasting your time. Don't misuderstand, all you agencies are real super, members of the real people community. I love advertising. They are my best friends! As the stars say (aren't they invincible?), what's wrong with advertising? I defer this question to J. Wales, the boss. So far the decision is not to run ads of WP, unless somehow I have that wrong. Thjis article is a good article. I think it is too. I do not believe my changes will affect that. Botteville ( talk) 13:02, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
The largest settlement is Port Ellen rather than Bowmore, by a few hundred usual residents. The source is something of a problem. The National Records of Scotland abolished the site and put the data somewhere else, they say, but refuse to say where. Oh, just look it up, they say. Moot point. I found the map with the settlements on it. There are only two possibilities, Bowmore and Port Ellen. Excuse me, I don't mean to be difficult, but this website is not user friendly. A previous editor created a template for the population but this one is too difficult; besides, the Records Office just moves things around. It isn;t like Internet Archive, which has a portable id number and location for each work. So, what I am doing until someone thinks of a better way is cite web with selection instructions on how to get the populations of settlements. I'm not even going to think about all the notes elsewhere that use the abolished site. Botteville ( talk) 17:34, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
There is something of a consistency problem in citing this book. The editor gives the web site for the appins.org online version. Unfortunately this is not one book, but is three books bundled together. But, the bundle is not a book! It has no title and was never published on paper. The three scans were just combined. But, that is only the start! The scanner adds something to the title page, a notation, "CIRCA 1695." We don't know where that comes from because the first edition is dated 1703. The 1703 edition bears no such notation. Worse yet from WP point of view, this online version has no page numbers. Harvnb has a loc= parameter to cover this case and the editor in the reference to a quote has "Jura." The only trouble is, the book of 1703 has "Jurah." Moreover, the section head is quite a few pages away from the quote. But let's go on. This very book from which this Internet version was concocted is supposedly the copy bearing the note that Johnson and Boswell took it on a visit to Ila. Fine, we think. Something genuine. But then, we look up the very same book on Internet Archive hoping to get the page numbers. It says it is the same book as the one the two English authors ported for reference, but the work archived is the second edition! Which is much touted by Martin as much corrected. What we offer is the first edition. Martin did the second just before his death. Well, I finally did find an untramelled first edition, 1703, on Google Books. There is no such famous notation on it. Apart from visiting there, Johnson and Boswell haven't got a thing to do with Islay. If it is all right with you I am going to switch to this copy, state page numbers, and also give the section just as it is printed. Now, in our article, the English has been transliterated into modern letters. Well, I am not going to make a fuss about that. People have to read it after all. But, Martin has still more revelations. See next section. Botteville ( talk) 12:14, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Currently it is Scottish Gaelic. However, Martin (1703) says that in his day it was Irish. It seems that Islay previously belonged to Ireland and was taken over by Scotland in the British Empire days. In fact Ptolemy lists the 5 Ebudae Islands under the map of Hibernia, not under the map of Albion. Albion would not have been Scottish in his day anyway. The etymology section should spend more time on Ptolemy. I may have see to that myself, but if you can, go ahead! Botteville ( talk) 12:14, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
This old book by the priest, Monro, presents some bibiographic problems, which an editor has attempted to solve with a template. The template creates additional problems and it does not give us the standard WP format, so I want to replace it with a "cite book." WP has an article on this book. The book title however can take only one link. The editor has resolved on a link to the WP article. Fine, but that introduces a barrier to looking at the work, which is free on the Internet. First the reader has to go to another article. Then he has to locate which free copy he wants. The one prefered in the article is the same synthetic Internet image as for the Martin book, without page numbers! There is not and never was such a book. Moreover, the title is not right. We can do better. We can get it on Google. But, the book presents certain problems usually not found today. The publisher takes it on himself to combine a number of different independent books, all with different dates. This is the type of situation usually found in compilations today. We use "cite book" with named chapter typically for that, which also has a separate chapterurl. So, that is what I propose, with certain additional information concerning the date. That way we can give the pages without presenting a conundrum to the reader and he can actually look at the text, not someone's digest of it. We link in both article and Google book. Botteville ( talk) 08:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
This book appears in the notes, but not in the list of references. I found this reference in other articles on Hebridean islands:
Am I right in supposing this is the right one? Ælfgar ( talk) 11:57, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
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If Islay is a political entity with a government, the article ought to cover that fact. If it isn't, then it would be helpful if the article were to clarify what it means to say that Bowmore is considered the "capital" of a parcel of land that has no government to operate out of it. Largoplazo ( talk) 23:03, 19 December 2022 (UTC)