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"However, given the instability caused by the invasion of Iraq in 2003, it seems that in order to bring that region under control again, there will be some sort of cooperation between the West and Islamist groups". This is an opinion, not an encyclopedic fact. I think it should be removed. Dberliner 22:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that the Islamic groups should not be fighting in Iraq over religions. Everyone belives something different and they don't have to change other peoples beliefs to what they belive! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.126.179.56 ( talk) 20:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the narrow definition of islamism's role as "an Islamic militant, anti-democratic movement, bearing a holistic vision of Islam whose final aim is the restoration of the caliphate." is not NPOV. Especially considering the source is the 9/11 Commision Report and the immediate context for this definition is the statement that "Islamist terrorism is an immediate derivative of Islamism." 79.68.107.72 ( talk) 23:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Do not remove or alter other users' comments. If anyone does this going forward, I will block them immediately. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 17:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)d like to once again alert all users to wikipedia policies WP:NPA, WP:3RR and WP:SOCK. Please read them and follow them if you are not already doing so. Following them will help keep our discussions productive. Timothy Usher 20:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to remind everyone that this page is only for discussion of the article. I suggest the editors take the recent archiving as an opportunity to begin again. Let's assume everyone is going to be civil and move forward on that basis. Tom Harrison Talk 21:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I am gonna start fresh. Lets just get some facts straight about the term Islamist. This term is used as a label. People are labeled Islamist instead of just plain Muslim because people OUTSIDE of the Muslim community want to define Muslims and what Islam is. The term is derogatory just as the word nigger and spick (aimed at spanish peope). Muslims do not WANT to be labeled as Islamist, the only label they want is Muslim. When writing an article such as this, everything should come from other sources. Every statement should be quoted and talked about in a nuetral view point.
Also, please don't label groups as Islamist. Regardless how feel about them, when you label deobandis, wahabis, taliban, tableeghi jamaat, etc., you are only labeling them that from your own opinion. If you go to the nigger article, they talk about the term nigga, but they dont label people as niggers or nigga. They only mention factual information about the term and how it evolved into different terms. Labeling groups as Islamist is not recommended. Instead talk about the history off the term and how it came into being and how it is used today. The previous article labels people. It does not provide any factual information about what the term is. The only portion that provides factual information are the portions that were completely re-edited. They include the new introductory section and the basic definition of the term section. Aspects of Islamism sections were edited half way through. The fundamentalists section and political sections were re-edited. The rest of the article is still the same. MuslimsofUmreka 21:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
The term is very broad and can be very misleading. Islam covers a broad area and people who are termed as being Islamist also cover a wide area. First, I would like to start with what Islam allows and what it does not allow. Then I will explain the term Islamism and what it implies. In the conclusion I will explain what I believe this article should focus on.
Islam encourages Muslims to set up an Islamic government. Muslims are told that in their lands they should run the government as it is described in the Quran and Sunnah. Islam does not however say to take over other foreign governments and establish Islam. Islam teaches that dawah should be given to non Muslims. If for whatever reason non Muslims make plans to attack Muslim lands or Muslims, then Muslims should fight those who want to attack Muslims. This does not mean starting up conflicts, but if somebody declares or is being quiet hostile towrds Muslims and it can be seen that they plan to attack Muslims, then Muslims are allowed to go attack those people. Muslims are told to go to foreign lands to give dawah and to deliver the message of Islam in a peaceful manner. Muslims are supposed to spread the religion of Islam. But the jihad stuff is only to be used when others start hostilities with Muslims.
Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, even in the times of war. Muslims are told not to begin hostilities as it can be seen the following vese of the Quran, "002.190 YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits." posted from http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.190
The term Islamism implies that anybody who follows the religion of Islam appriopriately is a bad person. The term also indentifies those Muslims who trangress the limits as being extreme Muslims. But if they transgress the limits indentified in the Quran, they can not possibly be following Islam to the extreme. The concept of the terms Islamism and Islamist imply those people who no longer wish to practice Islam as it should be practiced (those people who are part of liberal movements), as being real Muslims and correct Muslims. The term implies that people who follow Islam correctly are all bad peole and should be wiped out.
The term donates a wide category off people falling into this category. There are Muslims who wish to setup Islamic governments in their own homelands in the middle east in a peaceful manner, but if they support an Islamic government in their own homeland, they are regarded as being Islamist by their own people (who do not practice Islam properly).
The term aslo implies thsoe who attack innocent people in terrorist attacks as following Islam strictly in the extreme manner, hence the term islamism. But in fact, these people have violated laws so they can not be folowng Islam correctly.
The term Islamism and Islamist is politically in correct. Communists call themselves communists and they themselves say that they follow communism. Muslims do not say that they follow islamism, they say they follow islam. Muslims do not call themselves Islamists, they call themselves Muslims. Do you see the diference? People call hip hop culture black culture but the correct term would be hip hop culture or urban culture.
This article should focus on the term Islamism itself. It should give a history of where the term came from and how it is used today and why it is used like that.
The end MuslimsofUmreka 01:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this - merging this article with the article on Islamist Fundamentalism is not only confusing but misleading. I think there is a lot to say here about the history, evolution and usage of the term without getting into one specific aspect of its usage. Discussion of Islamic Fundamentalism should be relegated to only one aspect of this article and be added as a 'see also' link at the end.
Since Islamism isn't a terminology rooted in Islamic theology itself, but a terminology of third-party origins ascribed to movements to assert Islamic government in Muslim and nonmuslim countries, what the Quran or Hadiths say are irrelevant. Islamic theology is itself irrelevant unless you propose to prove that Islamism is a terminology rooted in the religion of Islam. It isn't.
Any rewrite must include the usage of the term, definitions offered by various sources, etc. It should go into identifying what forces have and are considered 'islamist'.
And stop using the opening phrase "Islam says". Islam isn't a person and there isn't a text that is called "Islam". There's the Quran, but the Quran is open to interpretation, and any quote originating from it regarding Shariah is contested by scholars. You could include information based on quotes of scholars who are addressing the topic of Islamism with the use of Qur'an, that's fair game..But you cannot use scripture itself to formulate your arguement. That's original research. Most Muslims in the world do not take the verses regarding living under Muslim rule as being literal in the sense that Islamic law must be implemented. Considering most Muslims don't even read Hadiths, it's inappropriate to speak of Hadiths in this article as if they define Muslim opinion on Islamic law.
The term Islamist is NOT used to as a synonym for "Muslim". I know of no credible journalist or leader who used the term "Islamist" when the term "Muslim" was appropriate. You've obviously fallen short in your research of this terminology and its usage. It is not a derogetory term.
The article CANNOT contain your personal judgements. To claim "Islamism" as a term invented to demean Muslims is ridiculous. Newspapers in Muslim countries use the term, as does Al Jazeera. There is a legitimate context where the use of the term "Islamist" and "Islamism" is appropriate. The article needs to investigate that context. All statements must be factual and sourced. Amibidhrohi 02:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
From Al-Jazeera transcripts, via Nexis:
Middle Eastern Newsmaker Wire Al-Jazeera
May 24, 2002 Friday
EMEDIA-ACC-NO:.320
LENGTH: 512 words
HEADLINE: Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, Founder of Hamas (05/24/02 22:10 Mecca), AL- JAZEERA
ANCHOR: You were accused by some corners in the Palestinian Authority of having links with foreign parties, and that you constantly worked to undermine and destroy the Palestinian Authority.
YASSIN: First of all, it's sad to enter into these diatribes. We're not ready for that. Second, we know ourselves well. We're an Islamist movement defending an Islamic homeland, and anyone who wants to call us otherwise -- everyone praises (ph) which he doesn't have.
Middle Eastern Newsmaker Wire Al-Jazeera
May 13, 2003 Tuesday
EMEDIA-ACC-NO:.320
LENGTH: 694 words
HEADLINE: Interview with Hani Al-Naqshabandi (05/13/03 00:08 Mecca), AL- JAZEERA
BODY: ANCHOR: Joining us from London, Hani Al-Naqshabandi, editor-in-chief of "Al-Majalla" newspaper. How do you see the -- what's your take on the explosions?
NAQSHABANDI: In my opinion -- in my own personal estimate, unfortunately, we look at the issue from a wrong perspective. Dealing with the problems of Islamist radicalism is not to oppress it with force but to deal with its root causes. There is more than one reason, and we need to -- and these causes need to be dealt with. One of the main causes is the American injustice in dealing with the Arab issues. Another one is the absence of the political, social and economic justice in Saudi Arabia. There are several issues that need to be addressed, and there are several lessons that need to be learned. In my estimate, fighting terrorism cannot be achieved without the use of -- with the use of force alone. Force is important, but not the only weapon.
Ill try to be more to the point this time.The reason we should know what major muslim world languages 24.7.141.159 speaks natively as he said is because he is saying "It is quite obvious that none of the other editors have come forward with being multilingual or having any skill in reading Arabic. This in and of itself puts your POV out of the sphere of NPOV because you are commenting on a non-Western topic without acknowledging non-Western sources due to language handicaps." he keeps saying things like this and that other peoples sources dont really count because they dont have the expertise he does in speaking all these languages, he is only saying trust me they dont have this concept in muslim languages. I think thats called "appeal to an authority" which in this case is himself which is fine but we should know for sure because otherwise someone might think maybe he is just making all this up or something. 67.188.110.197
I would just like to point some things out, that i think may not have been properly addressed. First, Islamism as it used today, is a term that has evolved but most prominently in modern history as a reaction to trends in though that have only really began to emerge in the late 19th century. This Islamic thought can be said to have been brought to the Arab World with Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, who was born in Iran, travelled, most significantly, through India and then arrived in Egypt. His thought had two main branches. The public branch was a very pan-Islamic anti-collonial nationalism that was based on his perception that nationalism played a very large role on the rise of the European powers. Although he wasnt the first, he was the most prominent.
His private branch of thought, reserved for his acquaintances and other ‘ulemmaa (scholars), he expressed his opinion on the need to reform Islamic theology and culture. He thought that the centuries of the door for ijtihad (lit. effort or interpretation, as in scholarly interpretation of the Islamic law) being closed had led to a hostility to reason developing and thus an inability to cope with modern technology and science. The idea was that this was not a fault in Islam itself, which was infinite and therefore could be interpreted to encompass all worldy advances, but rather in the state of the Muslim world at the time. He envisioned a group of scholarly and political elite, undertaking to and leading reform in the Islamic world.
Even, at this point, it can be labeled Islamism or Islamic Fundamentalism, in the sense that he advocated a return to fundamental principles of Islam.
What is most significant for this article, however, may be the split in thought that happened after him. Two of his friends and students in Egypt, Mohamed Abduh and Rashid Reda (Rasheed, Rachid Reda, Reza) took different sides of shit thought. Where Abduh, was a tireless, non-revolutionary rational reason-based reformer, Reda and others became increasingly alarmed at the secularism that was growing in the Arab world, emphasizing Afghani's positions on loyalty to Islam.
Abduh's thought was again split by his pupils. One group took the ideas on the compatibility between reason and revelation to imply increased reliance on reason, equated with Christian Europe. This went the secularization way. As mentioned, Reda increasingly used Afghani's and Abduh's most stringent ideas. Eventually, this evolved into turning to the thought of the strictest Islamic thinkers ushc as Ibn Taymiyya This movement became salafeyya; noun: salafi. There is often confusion surrounding the connection between slafi and wahhabi Islam. This is probably due to their both referencing Ibn Taymiyya and their common tendency towards a very back to the basics, supposedly puritanical interpretation of Islam.
This barely takes us into the first half of the 20th century. Personally, i'm kind of tired of writing at the moment. Names to look out for include: Hassan el Banna and the Muslim Brotherhood. el Hodeiby; Jama`at Islamiyya (Islamic Societies, which were often armed groups); Islamic Jihad.
There are later interactions between Egyptian violent and/or fundamentalist Islamic groups that evolved out of the line mentioned above and wahhabi Islam. This was most notable when the Islamists were shown zero tolerence shortly after the 52 revolution. This culminated in their descimation in the 60s. Many fled to the Gulf where they spread their ideas. (anecdotal: I went to school in Saudi Arabia and had many Egyptian teachers that were formerly Muslim Brotherhood). I would venture that violence was transfered this way to wahhabi Islam and this is the kind of thought that eventually led to the violent mujahideen groups trained and funded by the US in Afghanistan in the late 70s and 80s to counter communist influence. In the 90s, these same people, including Bin Laden, would turn against the United States culminating in 11 September.
I'm sorry about the lack of sources. I initially intended to say only a few lines. I think, however, i have added much food for research, for those that are interested. I'll keep coming back to see how things go. Bassemkhalifa 12:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Islamism can have many uses. Radical islamism could refer to the ideas of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood. Regular islamism refers to any political system, which uses muslim standards. The way western nations usually use christian standards. Islamic standars include modest dress, anti-abortion, Islamic economics, islamic-style court system, etc. Several examples would be nations such as Libya, the Islamic Republic of Iraq and Afghanistan, Malaysia, etc.
Libya is pan-Arab and pan-Islamic and is run by a military dictator. Libya isn't a good example of an Islamic country, but the Islamic Republic of Iran is a good example. Though, they do have that position of Supreme Leader which is against the Islamic principle of democracy... Armyrifle 15:45, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
What Islamic principle of Democracy? Wherever Islamism rules, democratic processes like free elections and such are curtailed. Jon3800 ( talk) 20:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
The article states absolutely incorrectly '..the role the Prophet Muhammad played as "rebel" during his time in Medina:[14]...' The prophet never rebelled in Makkah or Madina. Even when the Muslims were given the worst torture in Makkah for 13 years & even when they were boycotted by Qoreish for 3 yrs in Shaab Abi Taalib until they had to revert to eating tree leaves to survive, the Prophet never instructed any one to attack his torturer. At every available opportunity he would try to deliver God's message to the tormentors of Muslims peacefully with complete forbearance. The question of being 'rebel' is totally out of place as regards Madina. It did never apply there, as the state of Madina was formed by the Pledge of Aqba between the Prophet & the two tribes of Madina namely: Awas & Khazraj & the balance three tribes became party to the state by the latter Saheefa of Madina agreed & signed in 80 clauses clarifying everyone's freedom & obligation to the state of Madina. He was the head of a sovereign city-state there, so case of 'rebel' absolutely did not apply there. It is not POV, it is a lie. A deliberate attempt on part of the writer to misinform the reader distorting real facts & inventing 'fictional facts' for some ulterior motive to dis-inform.This should be clarified as such, so that an uninformed reader is not mislead. ILAKNA ( talk) 04:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Apologies if this seems/is too involved, but I wish to put this debate to rest so we can move on.
A search on [ [6]] for “Islamism” yields, yielded 2,930,000 hits. Here are the first of these, in the order in which they appear:
etc.
Note that everyone is using this term in almost precisely the same way. Were we to list and link to all the sources that use it, it would be unacceptably long.
In sum, while it is obvious that it is of fairly recent origin in English, supplanting “Islamic fundamentalism” as we’ve noted, and that Daniel Pipes has played a role in popularizing it, Islamism is at this point a term in the English language with a specific and fairly invariable definition. Whether this is “politically incorrect” as you assert is beside the point. As this is an English-language page, we should use it accordingly without unwarranted hedging.
As I recall, this was the heart of the dispute which led to the edit war, and the article being blocked to begin with. This kind of thing should not have been allowed to hold us up.
So I propose that we accept contemporary Englsh usage for what it is, and get to work on the article. Timothy Usher 02:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I keep starting my homework but then feel compelled o go near my computer, bu whatever. I am figure that it would be better to end this dispute now. I am willing to end this dispute if you all agree with the following terms.
1.) On the top of the article page, put in italics the following, This page deals with the political term Islamism, this article does not talk about islam, for an article on Islam and Muslim see Islam and Muslims
2.) Cite your sources. In the original article before the edit war it stated:
Islamism refers to anti-secular political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Islamists generally assert that Islam, as both a religion and a social system, should be practiced as a philosophy by the government. Many Islamists advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law. This stance is typically considered a form of triumphalism.
The use of the term "Islamism" is controversial. Individuals labeled Islamists often regard themselves as simply observant Muslims and oppose using the term. In contrast, moderate Muslims and liberal movements within Islam generally apply the term to distinguish themselves from groups and philosophies with which they do not identify. However, the term is often misapplied to denote Muslims who engage in violent or insurgent activities.
Instead the article should start as the following:
The term Islamism is controversial. Dictionary.com defines the term as 1. An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life. 2. The religious faith, principles, or cause of Islam. source
However, the term is usually applied to refer to political Islamic movements that are considered to have deviated from the Quran and Sunnah. Daniel Pipes defines the term as, "Islamism is an ideology that demands man's complete adherence to the sacred law of Islam and rejects as much as possible outside influence, with some exceptions (such as access to military and medical technology). It is imbued with a deep antagonism towards non-Muslims and has a particular hostility towards the West. It amounts to an effort to turn Islam, a religion and civilization, into an ideology." source
Others have defined it differently though. "Islamism is a totalitarian ideology adhered to by Muslim extremists (e.g. the Taliban, Hamas and Osama bin Laden). It is considered to be a distortion of Islam. Many Islamists engage in terrorism in pursuit of their goals.” It also includes this quote: “It is important to emphasize: Islamism is not Islam. On the contrary, it is a perversion of Islam. The traditional religion practiced by most Muslims is tolerant and moderate, an ancient faith with a rich tradition of scholarship. Islam places great emphasis on virtue, charity, and living according to God's will; it is not at all incompatible with political democracy or religious pluralism.” -Jeff Jacoby of Boston Globe" (This is what Timothy Usher posted above)
In conclusion, add citations and sources such as that and keep the tone of the article neutral as possible. If you agree to these terms, I am willing to end my side of teh dispute but only if you all agree to the above. Let me know what you think. MuslimsofUmreka 03:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
MOU,
“1.) On the top of the article page, put in italics the following, This page deals with the political term Islamism, this article does not talk about islam, for an article on Islam and Muslim see Islam and Muslims”
Re the original intro:
“Islamism refers to anti-secular political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Islamists assert that Islam, as both a religion and a social system, should be practiced as a philosophy by the government. Many Islamists advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law. This stance is typically considered a form of triumphalism.”
“The use of the term "Islamism" is controversial. Individuals labeled Islamists often regard themselves as simply observant Muslims and oppose using the term. In contrast, moderate Muslims and liberal movements within Islam generally apply the term to distinguish themselves from groups and philosophies with which they do not identify. However, the term is often misapplied to denote Muslims who engage in violent or insurgent activities.”
Re your replacement:
“The term Islamism is controversial. Dictionary.com defines the term as 1. An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life. 2. The religious faith, principles, or cause of Islam. source”
“However, the term is usually applied to refer to political Islamic movements that are considered to have deviated from the Quran and Sunah.”
If there is one thing that I do not understand is why are people like Timothy, Kyaa the catlord and others so interested in editing this page when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Kyaa the catlord lives in calorado according to his or her page and i'm certain there are NO Muslims in that state and there is no threat of terrorism there. The other people know nothing about Islam, nor are they Muslim so I do not see why this topic is so important to them. It doesnt effect them in anyway. The only reason I think of is that they are racist and want to take every oppurtunity too defame Muslims and make them look bad. Please explain to me why this topic is os important to you? MuslimsofUmreka 19:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Before he was saying if you move to Ohio youre not a real muslim anymore, maybe thats also true if you move to colorado? I think we should probably wait until he comes back cause he is the one here who knows about these things not us. 67.188.110.197
MuslimsofUmreka, I sincerely do not believe you're capable of editing this topic in a non-POV fashion. You clearly have a strong opinion regarding nonmuslims who review this particular topic. The fact that you're questioning one's motives for being here on the basis of their own religious following or location is enough for me to see that you cannot address these discussions here without carrying in your personal baggage.
Amibidhrohi
03:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Katefan I hope this is at least enough about the article for you not to get mad at me.
It sounds like what Muslim of Umreka is really saying is ISLAM IS A RELIGION MEANT TO BE APPLIED TO WIKIPEDIA ARTICLES. I mean can you really expect that someone will think anything and everything should be ruled by extreme islamic law EXCEPT wikipedia?
He said we all agree that the original version has a strong anti-Islamic bias but I dont think thats right. Maybe it was totally no good but the version now is much worse then that if its possible. its the first thing that comes up on google and its a total embarassment. and the stupidest part is that it sounds like the wikipedia administration choose to freeze it like this to begin with because he asked someone to do this. just because the article made him upset by not being extreme muslim as he would put it. Im sorry but thats true.
Why do you think he will work everything out with people when his new article is up now? If nothing happens he wins dont you think.
You asked what we should do with the article so i think the first thing we should do is go back to how it was before he changed everything to be like it is now. Thats what I think. 67.188.110.197
I did it. Now we can change it from here.
67.188.110.197
This article, as is the case with over 30 others, has had an external link added to an essay of Martin Kramer. It has been determined that these additions are link spam. When this article is unprotected could this link be removed. Full discussion of this instance of POV and self-promoting link spam vandalism can be found here Talk:Martin_Kramer#Is_Martin_Kramer_link_spamming_Wikipedia.3F -- 70.48.241.41 21:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
It isn't warranted. Amibidhrohi 05:06, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
[19] Do you have a specific source for this? This kind of assertion needs to be sourced, especially if you have something here in quotes. Who's saying what's in these quotes? Please be diligent about sourcing. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 15:59, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
MuslimsofUmreka, I have changed the introductory caveat for two reasons:
MuslimsofUmreka, I again request you to stop removing other editors' dispute tags. It is not up to you to unilaterally decide that an article is not disputed. Timothy Usher 01:38, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
For the record, I posted the below: "Islamism refers to political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Islamists generally assert that Islam is both a religion and a social system. Many Islamists advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law.
The use of the term "Islamism" is controversial. Individuals labeled Islamists often regard themselves as simply observant Muslims and oppose using the term. In contrast, moderate Muslims and liberal movements within Islam generally apply the term to distinguish themselves from groups and philosophies with which they do not identify. While virtually all Muslims regard their religion as a way of life and desire to live in accordance with Islamic values, many Muslims support peace and reject the use of their religion to justify violence, revolution, or radical views."
There is nothing racist, biased or otherwise inflammatory about it, unless you are MOU. I'd like to ask any admins who are viewing this to PLEASE step forward and put a stop to MOU's repeated slurring of my name. Kyaa the Catlord 02:06, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, I think your revisions are good. I would make one suggestion: The fact that its usage is controversial should most definitely be mentioned in the first paragraph; as it is now it's mentioned way too far down. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 13:51, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Katefan0. I'll get to work on it some more in a bit.
I can't say I entirely agree that the usage controversy should lead, perhaps that's American-centric POV though. But it if helps NPOVing or even stablizes (imagine that!) the article, it's worthwhile.
One thing I hope to fix is the duplicated Pipes quote, and reorganize things a little if not a lot. He shouldn't be the central focus of this. I just have to think of how to do it. Any ideas on this?
And thanks, Graft, hadn't gotten to that quite yet. Please do continue. Timothy Usher 01:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The only thing I can think at this time is changing "Islam refers to" to "Islamism is a controversial term referring to". I don't much like it because it suggests that the article is about the term, a theme which aleady dominates the following paragraphs which themselves were compromises. Islamism is too salient as an observable phenomenon to reduce it to a linguistic debate. Perhaps someone has a better idea.
Timothy Usher
03:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I open with this question. I have read the article, written portions of it, and I am well informed about Islam and the particular topic addressed here. However, User:24.7.141.159 (and perhaps others) have stated that they believe this article to be clearly "anti-Islamic". For my part, I do not see this. I am aware of several criticisms against the article - the most notable being the topic definition's potential, perhaps actual, confusion of a Muslim and an Islamist. Still, this does not strike me as anti-Islamic, only an area for clarification.
Ignorance seems the root of much bias. Rather than argue with each other, perhaps we can teach one another? I, for one, still have much to learn.
Here is my proposal. Let's take one point of the article - a sentence, phrase, etc. - and look at it. We can ask ourselves: Is it anti-Islamic? Is it justifiable? And so on. I invite anyone to cite from the article the best example of this bias and to briefly explain their choice. Above all, please be clear and brief. The goal here is to make your position obvious, as to a room of trusting students. Please consider that trust. As for myself, I hope to learn something. -- Vector4F 17:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
This discussion of anti-Islamic biases was moved from the archives back to the talk page. User:Pecher removed this posting and another pro-Islamic editor has been banned. It leads me to conclude that Muslim wikipedians and pro-Islamic wikipedians are not welcome on these pages. With that said, I would like to restart discussion on this topic. 24.7.141.159 09:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Hrana98 etc., I like Pecher before me have removed your recent post because the material is outdated, it is already archived, and as far as I can tell, you are violating WP:POINT. Timothy Usher 09:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
So what exactly are you trying to say? Especially with that "tread carefully" part.
I'll wait to see what others have to say about this...wouldn't want to banned like Kyaa. For my own part, in addition to the points I've raised on WP:ANI re the Deuterium sockpuppet, the basic problem with your narrative is that there is no obvious point of action re the article. Timothy Usher 10:00, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
First off, MOU isn't banned. He's been blocked for a week for engaging in personal attacks. Second, we're trying to create a NPOV article, not one that is favorable to either side. Islamism does not equal Islam in all cases. "Islamist" is used by the media to specify between moderate and liberal Muslims and Islamic causes and those which are more fundamentalist, extreme and potentially dangerous. I thought we were all on the same page that there are multiple meanings to Islamism, at least we were before MOU came and started unilaterally altering the article, even after we'd agreed on the talk page that this required discussion. All we want, imho, is to get back to where we were before he started "warring" with us over this page. Is that too much to ask? (removed that, this is actually where we'd started moving forward. Is that your intention 24? I'd like that, personally.) Kyaa the Catlord 12:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick note, Daniel Pipes is a scholar considered very radical in his interpretation and writings about Islamism. He is the one who first suggested surveilling Muslim students on campuses. His writings in academic work is highly controversial and he can thus not be used as a reference for a neutral definition. Regards, -- 217.227.31.81 16:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Calling all Muslims Islamists, who advocate a system replacement of secular state laws with Islamic law, is IMHO not precise enough as it would include peaceful groups, who see Islam as a way of life with social and political aspects. Raphael1 02:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Though I am not familiar with this word (This word is foreign to me; I think westerns have invented this word). Can anybody let me know the Islamic term for that?
The definition "Islamism refers to anti-secular political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam."
Does this supposed to refer to Iran's government? Please help me understand what is going on here. -- Aminz 00:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Timothy.
Well, then 1. It should be mentioned in the definition that westerns have invented this term. And 2. I see both “factual and neutral problems” with the usage of "anti-secular" in the definition (I need to go now but will copy/paste the Soroush’s quote in order to show why I disagree). -- Aminz 01:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
The term is derived from the Arabic word 'islamawiyya' if that helps, alternatively Islamic fundamentalism is 'al-usuliyya al-islamiyya'. -- 217.227.31.81 16:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Irishpunktom, your most recent edit is absurd. You say see talk page, but I've not seen you here.
As I've posted on your user page,
"...is a broad undefined term that usually relates to..."?
1) There's no problem with broad terms; many articles have them 2) the term is not undefined, as the article makes clear 3) usually? Can you explain where and when it doesn't? 4) please actually read the article 5) there is this tab on the top of your WP interface, between the "article" and "edit this page" buttons, called "discussion". Timothy Usher 09:08, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Islamism refers to a set of anti- secular political ideologies derived from conservative religious views of fundamentalism. Islamist ideologies hold that Islam is not only a religion, but also a political system that governs the legal, economic and social imperatives of the state according to certain interpretations of Islamic law.
Kyaa, Irishpunktom, Pecher, what do you think? Timothy Usher 09:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Kyaa and Timothy, I just realized I was misreading the passage I was editing. Sorry! I like your new suggestion Kyaa. -- Aminz 10:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, see
[22].
Timothy Usher
10:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Islamist ideologies hold that Islam is not only a religion, but also a political system that governs the legal, economic and social imperatives of the state according to its interpretation of Islamic Law.
That sentence is in the introduction and is at odds with Wikipedia articles on Islam and Sharia.
From Islam: Islām is described as a dīn, meaning "way of life" and/or "guidance".
Islamic law covers all aspects of life, from the broad topics of governance and foreign relations all the way down to issues of daily living. Islamic laws that were covered expressly in the Qur’an were referred to as hudud laws and include specifically the five crimes of theft, highway robbery, intoxication, adultery and falsely accusing another of adultery, each of which has a prescribed "hadd" punishment that cannot be forgone or mitigated. The Qur'an also details laws of inheritance, marriage, restitution for injuries and murder, as well as rules for fasting, charity, and prayer.
From Sharia: For traditional Sunni Muslims, the primary sources of Islamic law are the Qur'an, the Hadith, the unanimity of Muhammad's disciples on a certain issue (ijma), and Qiyas (drawing analogy from the essence of divine principles). Qiyas — various forms of reasoning, including by analogy — are used by the law scholars (Mujtahidun) to deal with situations where the sources provided no concrete rules. The consensus of the community or people, public interest, and others were also accepted as secondary sources where the first four primary sources allow.
Maybe the best definition is of Islamism is contained in the Islamic fundamentalist article: Islamism is ... in conflict with the secular, democratic state, based upon the widely supported Universal Rights (as in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)).
The fact is Muslims describe their faith as a deen (which includes politics) but so do Islamists. Does this mean that anyone Muslim proclaiming political ideologies sourced from Islamic scripture is automatically an Islamist? No it should not. However, this article claims that to be true. Rewording the first phrase of the introduction so it is not at odds with the Islam and Sharia articles is a prudent first step. User247 12:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Oops, forgot to include the citation request. If any editor feels the above statement to be true, then we need a mutually agreed upon citation from an impartial scholarly source. Furthermore, the articles on Islam and Sharia need to be amended properly. As it stands, this article is implying incorrectly that all Muslims are Islamists--this is wrong! Lastly, if you haven't figured it out yet, I've made me a user name finally. User247 12:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else feel that the article is approaching the Wikipedia:Spam Event Horizon in terms of all the external links and further reading? Some of them may be good reads, but wikipedia is not the place for listing worthwhile web pages and books. Thanks, Andjam 11:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
According to Menahem Milson, a professor emeritus of Arabic Literature at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, the terms "extremist Islam," "militant Islam," "radical Islam," and "Islamism" are synonymous. [32] Raphael1 14:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Life isn't fair. Labels are unfortunately a convienient way for homo sapiens to clearly define one another in an understandable way.
If I am from Europe, I'm European. If I'm from Asia, I'm Asian. The derogatory nature of such labels is unfortunately a by-product of society rather than the implied meaning of such a defining fact.
A fundamentalist, be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, Tibetan, et. al., retains such a label. It is lamentable that such a label offends the bearer, yet does not eliminate the basic meaning. If one wants to explain their stance, feel free to write an unbiased explanation. During this process we must make sure to properly define this term so it is consistant with the concepts of Islam such that we do not cast an entire religion into the way we would like it to be or wrongly equate its followers with terrorists. If one wants to delete this article on the basis of a word alone ignores the purpose of a dictionary. This article cannot be used as a soapbox to redefine and attack Islam as this would fly in the face of the ideals of Wikipedia.
I think this discussion goes into the wrong direction; Just because someone believes in an alternative state or political system, it doesn't mean that he is militant. There are many orthodox Jews who believe that it is sinful that a Jewish state was created before the occurance of the messia. This led to bomb attacks in the 1930s against Zionist establishments - by orthodox Jews. Yet it doesn't mean that today orthodox Jews in general support the destruction of their own state, even if it contradicts their religious faith. Neither would probably anyone argue that fundamentalist Christians argue to overthrow the state just because they find the government too little Christian. Equally, Muslim fundamentalists can have a different opinion about how they would like to be governed without finding it acceptable to kill people for it. Furthermore, fundamentalism is only one aspect in Islamism. There are many modern Islamists, whose ideology, e.g. that of participating in democratic elections, is rejected by some fundamentalist groups. Islamists aren't all the same so it is wrong from my point of view to generalise them into one extreme category. -- Arabist 17:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I have seemed to have lost any interest in editing this page. Very weird. I think its mostly because it brings out the worst in me. So I am officially dropping out from editing this page. MuslimsofUmreka 03:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed the tag because reading over this page, the issue was clearly that some editors deputed the term "Islamism" period. That doesn't warrant a disputed tag on the article, especially as it clearly states that the term is controversial. If anyone can point to specific cases of POV in the article or specific factual errors, please state them here so we can fix them, rather than reinserting the tag. Armon 12:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
"Fundamentalist" describes a movement to return to what is considered the defining or founding principles of the religion. It has especially come to refer to any religious enclave that intentionally resists identification with the larger religious group in which it originally arose, on the basis that fundamental principles upon which the larger religious group is supposedly founded have become corrupt or displaced by alternative principles hostile to its identity. [...] In Islam they (fundamentalists) are jama'at (Arabic: (religious) enclaves with connotations of close fellowship) self-consciously engaged in jihad (struggle) against Western culture that suppresses authentic Islam (submission) and the God-given (Shari'ah) way of life.
So if islamic fundamentalists are enclaves self-consciously engaged in jihad (struggle) against Western culture that suppresses authentic Islam and Islamism describes a set of political ideologies derived from Islamic fundamentalism, why doesn't the definition of Islamism include a reference to the "struggle against Western culture"? Raphael1 22:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I've moved the discussion here, as the previous section was getting visually confusing. The relevant part of Islamic fundamentalism reads as follows:
There is no problem here vis-a-vis the Islamism definition, as fundamentalism is presented as a more general term which includes a focus on personal practice rather than political ideology. Islamic fundamentalism is said here to *describe* Islamism (among other things), not to *be defined by* it. Those are logically inverse concepts: if A describes B, B can (at least in part) be defined by A. The sentence "Islamism describes a set of political ideologies derived from Islamic fundamentalism" could perhaps be profitably rephrased but makes perfect logical sense. Timothy Usher 01:08, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Can't resist to chime in here: My rule of thumb in distinguishing and labeling movements as 'islamist' or 'fundamentalist' has been this: Like atheist and agnostic, which are similarly often confused in public discourse, one can be:
But first, 3 more concepts:
E (usually nInF initially) will frequently pool with M to fight back T, the underlying default scenario in much of the muslim world. (development model). If E and M are relatively successful in fighting T, T may turn into nIF to immunize themselves against further onslaught, by seeking the protection of the nInF E. If M's project is frustrated, parts of M may turn into InF, abandoning M, and try short-circuiting nInF to become the new E. Thus, nIF is a protective move by T against M and E. InF is a secondary tactic of frustrated M, designed to make themselves the new E. InF will (when it is not yet E itself) frequently try to enlist the help (in overthrowing the old E) of T by posturing as, or becoming IF, thereby turning T into IF (where T was nIF before). Simultaneously, to defend themselves against a potential InF/IF alliance, the nInF E will try to ally themselves with T by turning nIF, or with InF by becoming InF themselves, thus turning E against M in both cases.
Again, in a nutshell:
I admit thas this may be a bit 80s and 90s slang, but I've been 'out of the loop' for a while, and definitions may have shifted in the meantime. But the above will be widely recognizable for anybody familiar with (European) ME studies at the time.
ALL of the 4 flavours a)-d) above of course ultimately envision unity of state and Islam. There just is no "render untu Cesar..." in Islam. The nInF faction of course, is only muted in this regard. To remain part of the elite, they have to accept the powers-that-be, and sing to their tune. In a nIF (and a successful IF) system the state more or less disappears, so that the traditional actors will hold both secular and rudimental religious powers. In an InF system, the new elite will hold both powers, or will - more realistically - employ the old religious E to continue elaborately safeguarding the religious sphere according to the new framework.
ALL of the 4 flavours a)-d) above have at times engaged in violence against opponents (as has basically every group you care to mention - e.g. vegetarians) but none of them can be defined by doing or not doing so, because all of them could conceiveably continue to exist as the discernible groups they are, without ever engaging in violence again.
I don't mean all this as a piece of original research. Rather, if you look at a broad spectrum of literature on the subject (like the Chicago Fundamentalism Project and other major players in academic ME stuff) this is the common denominator that will emerge. Many journalists will just use whatever crosses their mind first: Islamism, Fundamentalism... all part of a soup they don't undestand. And people like Pipes or al-Banna jr. are just mangling and re-interpreting perfectly established concepts for political lobbying purposes. The article should not give undue weight to their ideosyncracies. Azate 22:34, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I am against merging (for reasons above, etc.) We should also try to close the merge tag since it's been on for quite some time.
gren
グレン
14:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
(started by Armon please add some more)
MOU's broken his word. Be aware that any edits in the near future are most likely going to be transient unless they meet his POV. Kyaa the Catlord 22:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
MuslimsofUmreka wrote, "The term itself is considered to be very controverisal. Most eduacted people avoid the term."
The first sentence is already in the article, first sentence, fourth paragraph, where the controversy is specified, although it certainly benefit from better citation. "is considered to be..." is weaselly. Finally, you shouldn't say that educated people avoid the term where you really mean that they "should" avoid it. "Islamism" is hardly a word one is likely to hear too much in less-educated circles. Your addition is thus, at least, inaccurate. Timothy Usher 05:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Dunno if this is appropriate or helpful at all. But this [38] article shows a democratically elected moderate islamist, who "would not outlaw the famous Comoran lavish wedding ceremonies or force women to cover their hair". Another thing worth mentioning is that he doesn't think, that the "overwhelmingly Muslim Comoros" are "ready to become an Islamic republic". Finally, the sub-header states that he is "seen as a moderate Islamist", but it does not state who "sees" him that way. On the other hand, his political opponents says "he is an Islamic extremist".
Can this article can be used in this article at all? It is quite ambiguious, and any conclusions drawn from this article could be seen as OR (I know that what I just concluded was in itself borderline OR, if not obvious OR). Maybe I should make a WP profile. Iafrate 10:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The article Islamic State is in a deplorable condition at the moment. I heaped some jumbled brainstorming text excerpts on its talk page for future expansion. Will work on it later, but I'm no expert, help welcome. -- tickle me 13:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Whoa! Where's all the stuff about terrorist bombings? This is a major part of Islamism/Islamist Fundamentalism and it's not here. Can someone provide more information on this and some links. (Anonymous User) May 24, 2006
Ummm.. it is well known that the Koran advocates an entire system including Government. All people that follow the Koran (i.e. Muslims) believe this. I don't understand what the differentiation between "Islamic" and "Islamist" is other than I hear the latter tossed around by elements of the media to somehow denigrate those to whom they are applying the latter label as somehow not being 'true muslims' (?) So in usage it is not a matter of being a "fundamentalist", it is a matter of someone whom the speaker feels is not a true Muslim. This really needs to be clarified AT THE BEGINNING OF THE ARTICLE. Not that it would somehow rob me of a right to an opinion, but I am not Islamic/Islamist, Jewish/Judaist, or Christian/Christianist. Sarastro777 21:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The last sentence doesn't make sense to me, even though I have read it five times. Please rephrase. Secondly... "..authentically Islamic society is.." this is my point the word makes a judgment about whether someone is 'authentic' follower of Islam or some fundamentalist pseudo-"Islamist." That's going to always be in the eye of the beholder. Typically we accept anyone that professes to be a follower of Mohammed as a "Muslim" as similar to "Christian" is a follower or bleiever in Jesus even though there is wide variation in exact belief. It becomes laughable to start labeling people as "ists" when we don't see them as authentic because they vary against our conception of what is authentic belief (which includes a socio political outlook in the Koran) or not. I note the many people linked to this article are done so because the editors are trying to discredit them as somehow less than authentic Muslim. Sarastro777 16:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for adding the extra info. I guess I still don't see the real difference between an Islamic person and an "Islamist" person. The article does not convey this clearly. As of my last reading, the differentiation of 'fundamentalist' was mentioned. I don't see how this clearly differentiates one from the other. If this neologized word warrants an article then I would think this could be explained simply in one sentence or two, at least so that the casual browser could understand. Detail obviously to follow.
I think part of my confusion is that the last paragraph starts "When a Westerner labels someone an Islamist... that identifies that individual as ... under the category of Islamism." That's really circular logic, so I am not able to grasp this differentiation. This needs to be made clear in the article in order for it be rigorous and understandable to other not familiar with the term. Sarastro777 21:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Is this Islamism a combination of "Islam" and Fundamental"ism"? That would certainly make sense whether or not you agree with the usage of the word, at least I could understand what it means. Sarastro777 21:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Concerns in Talk:Islamism#Citation_needed_and_Islamism_at_odds_with_Wikipedia_Islam_Project were never addressed. The article still has those same glaring errors. User247 21:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The Nation, May 15, 2006 issue, has two articles that may be of interest to those working on the present article, especially since both are (vaguely) book reviews and hence point at a lot of sources.
Online at [39] and [40], respectively, but I think you need a Nation subscription to access them.Anyway, should be available in any decent U.S. public or academic library. - Jmabel | Talk 20:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Very simply, these are NOT the same thing. At all. They may have similiar beliefs and goals, however Wahhabism developed in the 18th century Arab Peninsula (what is now Saudi Arabia). Salafi thought came to prominence much later (in the 20th century). Bassemkhalifa 11:13, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Just a note, even Islamism, Salafism, and Wahabism are not the same thing. Islamism is a general term, which incorporates a variety of groups and streams, many of which contradict and hate each other (for instance, look at the relations between Saudi Arabia and Iran, two supposedly Islamic states). Salafism is an ideology of turning back towards the examples of the Prophet Mohammed and the first four caliphs, but in a more radical form than mainstream Muslims (who after all would also all support the statement that the Prophet Mohammed is a model for all Muslims), which often implies that salafis do not pray with other non-Salafi Muslims. Wahabism is a special stream in Islamic schools of thought, mainly present in Saudi Arabia (and hardly anywhere else), interpreting Islam in a way many Islamists elsewhere find quite distorted. Regards, -- 217.227.31.81 16:39, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I think the current problem is that there are people like me who are writing articles and want to put radical islamist groups into a link. We want to have a term that means "Those that are against the West and that call for the Destruction of Israel. Basically, they are Fundamentalist Islamic terror groups such as Al Quaida, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, PLO and the such. People are telling us not to use the word Islamist, or as I've tried in the past, Islamofascist, but apparently, that's not good for many of you. It's not Islam groups which has replaced several of my links in the past, because Islam groups could be a local non-profit organization that helps disabled children. What word to use if not Islamist? We tried to use terrorists but you've taken that out of the vocabulary. Don't say Palestinian Militias because it doesn't accurately represent their background or intentions as stated in their various charters.
Please check Netaji 's anti islam comments on my talk page. [41] and here [42]. Synopsis- "There is only one kind of Islam. The kind that blows things up" and " I'm not upset about fundamentalism in Islam because there is no fundamentalism in Islam. Islam ITSELF is 'fundamentalist', in the sense of Intolerance, Slaughter, Looting, Arson, Molestation of women, ie I-S-L-A-M." Haphar 19:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is an embarrassment. It's like an Onion parody only more boring. It's repetitious and full or useless filler:
"Some western countries consider theocratic philosophies a threat to their status as secular nation states..."
"Some Muslims disagree with the ideologies and activities of those identified as Islamists..."
Tell us something we don't know!
Fundamentalism, Islamicism, Jihadist, Islamofacist.....
All of these terms are made up by Western ideology to represent or misrepresent Islam. As such, they are inaccurate to say the least. If I could get some of the Arab speaking Muslims to give us the Arab term for Islamism we could shed some light on the issue. I doubt that this will happen because they is no such word in the Islamic lexicon. These articles should state clearly that these terms are a Western construction, rather than an Islamic one.
(Everyone, please sign your comments.) It's a ridiculous argument to say that Western labels are inherently malicious or improper and that Islamic/Arabic labels are somehow more accurate and representative. Aside from it's blatant disregard for scholarship of all sorts, such a position naively assumes that the Arabic language is somehow immune to ideological "pollution". -- Vector4F 05:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I want to point out that you assume just a tad too much regarding my profession. So I would urge you to keep this discussion civilized and not to resort to personal attacks to validate your view point.
I respect that you have an opinion on the issue.
Islam is a religion, rather than a "Movement." If you want to call Islam a Movement, then do you consider Judaism and Christianity "Movements" also?
I think that you are assuming that Muslims who follow these doctrines of "Islamism" do not define themselves. Now even if this is true, why is the word "Islam" attached to the Western definition of Islamism? We indeed could call them "Salafis" or "Wahabis" or terms which the Muslim world already uses to define these groups. These terms do exist in the Muslim world, but are not being used in the West.
It is because CERTAIN elements of the West seeks to marginalize Islam.
It is important to realize that Islam and all other ideologies want to marginalize their competitors.
Like I said earlier, ALL ideologies are battling each other for supremacy. I did not say that Islam is immune from that. But it seems that we are implicitly taking the Western perspective as the Truth.
This is why I am discussing these terms which ultimately do not portray ISLAM in a positive light. We can discuss these terms semiotically, as Saussurian fashion, if that is academic enough?
I just want to highlight if nothing else, that these terms which are relatively new are loaded and are not an innocent attempt to better understand and detail these Movements.
Best Regards,
70.55.238.80 19:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)AP
I would tend to agree with the comment on the use of the term Islamism (or oher terms) without qualifying the controversy over the labels and what they mean. There is absolutely no doubt that the groups to whom these terms are used to refer do not like the labels as they all consider themselves to be Muslims, practicing the correct interpretation of Islam. Now, while their opinion may not be all that relevant, if we're going to talk scholarship, most academic scholarship on Active Islam/Political Islam/Islamism or Ideology in the Middle East tends to acknowledge this problem. Unfortunately, as evidenced by the citation on this page, some people are not very clear on what is a legitimate, citable source. I would draw your attentions to the work by Professor Saad Eldin Ibrahim and the Ibn Khaldun Center. The International Crisis Group also has a good study on Islamism that is accessible off of their website. I would also suggest a search through the Arabist.net archives for articles on the Muslim Brotherhood and other 'Islamist' movements. I would especially point your attention to an article by Mona El Ghobashy. A scanned copy is available on the Arabist. Bassemkhalifa 17:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
As Bassemkhalifa rightly points out, there are many Arab scholars who have addressed this issue. In the world of academia I would venture to say that Saad Eldin Ibrahim has a greater standing that Robert Spencer, whose hatred for Islam is covered by a thin veneer of psuedo-intellectualism. We have to acknowledge the fact that Muslim and Arab scholars have explored this issue.
70.55.238.80 18:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I would also like to suggest an, although slightly dated (mid nineties), book called: Bitter Legacy by Professor Paul Salem, a Lebanese academic. The book does a very good job providing a basis for understanding ideology in the Arab world. He looks not only at the different ideologies, but also traces their origins and frames them in their social, political, religious contexts. I strongly suggest leafing through at least the relevant parts, if you can get your hands on the book.
Bassemkhalifa
09:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The books included in this section make it a travesty. They are ALL filled with anti-Islamic rhetoric and the list needs to be balanced out. Also, those books have nothing to do with "Islamism" in the sense of a political theory. Wallah96 21:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Wallah, I have tried to add a few books with alternative and more balanced views. I hardly know any of the ones that were listed there before and I don't believe they are highly important ones either. -- 217.227.31.81 16:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
A part of islamic belief is in the sharia, how can there now be a seperate legal term that splits islam into religion and political? This is nonsense, Islam is not Christianity it is a religion with a political system, i think this is a pov. Thus Islam = shariah-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 07:55, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The edit [43] by user HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) who's contributions [44] do seem to use the word "POV" a lot plus their desire to delete the article would indicate that the worldview and dispute about tags are spurious for this article. What do others think ? The article does seem "balanced". It'll never be clean cut as Sharia seems essential to Islam but as a body of law that is clearly at odds with European Human rights law so there will always be a difference in "worldviews" of muslims in Sharia based countries and say so called secular European countries. Ttiotsw 11:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The term is a Western invention which has no analogue in Islamic thought. It is consistent with an ideology that seeks to marginalize Islam. This is the impetus behind the creation of the terms "fundamentalist","radical Islam", and "Jihadist." These terms implicitly posit that there is an acceptable brand of Islam, as opposed to this "radical" brand which is unacceptable. It is no coincidence that the "Modern Muslim" espouses ideas in line with Western thought. Hence, they are bandied as model Muslims. Certain people may protest this viewpoint. However, we agree that the word fundamentalist has a negative connotation. Yet a fundamentalist is one who follows the....fundamentals, the key principles of their religion?! That strongly suggests that Islam's principles are negative and immoral. Now let us break down the word "Jihadist." As a Muslim I know that that the highest level of Jihad is the internal fight against one's own desire and to live a selfless life. As such every Muslim is urged to live a virtuous life. However, certain elements of the West seek to reduce the term Jihad to include blowing oneself up and collecting 70 virgins in heaven. This is not an oversight because information is readily available in this increasingly small world that we live in. No, information pertaining to Islam is being purposefully distorted and demonized. That is why so many individuals, especially Muslims are fighting to prevent purposeful misrepresentations of their religion being disseminated.
This article has been slapped with tags for a reason.
Best Regards,
70.55.238.80 18:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I've reworded the introduction for clarity, and tweaked some of the links.
I've also noted that the term is a neologism, and mentioned that the distinction between islam and islamism is somewhat unclear. My understanding is that Islam says that all Muslims 'should' live in an Islamic state, but there is a great deal of disagreement as to how strong this obligation is, ranging from vaguely preferable to violently necessary.
I'm aware that the words "violently opposed" could mean "prepared to use violence" or "strongly opposed". This is consciously ambigous, because the term Islamism is sometimes used to mean both those groups, and sometimes only to mean those prepared to use violence. There's probably a better way to address that ambiguity.
I've moved and reworded this sentance, because what it says is true of all islamists, not just historical ones.
I've moved this paragraph here because it needs to be cleaned up and put somewhere, probably not back into the introduction.
There are still a couple of sections that would benefit from being merged into other sections, but I'll leave this here for now.
'Post 9/11 Issues' should probably be merged into 'recent history'
'Fear of Cultural Hegemony of the West' should probably be merged into 'Islamism and modern political theory' which should probably be expanded and moved before History.
And arguably, recent history should be extracted into its own section, and moved to the top, given that it is probably of more importance to the reader than the rest of the history section.
Regards, Ben Aveling 02:26, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
There is so many problems with this article, but let me just touch upon some key issues. Islam is a complete way of life. As such there is NO distinction between religion and state. The idea that Islamist are the only ones that believe this is wrong. This idea is established in the religion. I am afraid that a total rewrite is needed in order to establish this term clearly as a Western construction. Once again, there is no analogous word in the Islamic lexicon to denote "Islamist." I am not foolishly arguing that the term was not exist. But due diligence must be carried out on the origin of the word.
In terms of the idea that Muslims should live in an Islamic State, the general consensus is that Muslims DO NOT wage war to make that a reality for those living in non-muslim lands. Also, Muslims are urged to abide by the laws of the country which they choose to reside. This is very clear.
I could go on at length to discuss the problematic nature of the term, but the paragraph that is mentioned alluding to the multi-faceted nature of the ideology indicates in itself that the term CANNOT be accurately defined because it is indeed an umbrella term. Hence, if accuracy is what we hope to achieve in Wikipedia we must consign ourselves to the idea that this article as it stands is erroneous, unfocused, and suffers from a stilted POV.
I apologize if I sounded too haughty, and I appreciate all of your work and do not want to belittle your endeavours. But if I can only impart one idea it is that the term does not exist in Islam. (Neither does Fundamentalism, Jihadist, et al) If we want to discuss these terms, we must firstly state that these are western terms, and chart the origins and implications of these terms.
Best Regards,
70.55.238.80 16:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
User:70.55.238.80; It does not matter what you think, do you think those who pay for wiki care what you think? Then think twice before wasting you time! Thanks for listening. Kiumars
Guys this section looks like an article from Jerusalem post! I can put many citations on it but there would be too many! You better come up with more convincing arguments and present fact and figures not rumors and fantasies. Can you? Ok, let’s try. Kiumars
I'd just like to suggest that the Muslim Brotherhood section be revisted. Here are the broad lines that i think need to be addressed:
In my opinion it is not enough to say that the term is a neologism, and therefore this term is loaded with ideological bias. And consequently, the Western root of the term does not need to be discussed. This article is a little too top heavy in detailing what certain invested parties would like us to believe about Islam. My suggestion is to add a solid paragraph at the beginning to show the birth of the term and discuss its problematic nature. Therefore everything written below this coda can be contextualized as not representing Islam itself, but rather how the creators of the term Islamism view Islam. Perhaps this way a huge rewrite is not necessary, but the exploration of the term is framed.
Best Regards,
70.55.238.80 15:23, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
We know that the term exists. And we also know that Al-Jazeera uses the term in their English broadcasts. But the Al-Jazeera usage ONLY proves the terms existence, which we are not contesting. What is being contested is the lack of etymology of the term. Just from a factual perspective the opening paragraph is shaky because Islam is viewed as a COMPLETE way of life. This idea is not a radical idea but one which is established in mainstream Islam.
Secondly, the so-called experts of Islam mentioned (Robert Spencer et al) are far from experts. rather, these individuals have a long and documented history of anti-Islamic bias.
The question that I ask myself is why is there so much resistance to showing the Western origins of this term in this article? The way that the article is fashioned presently, it merely states the creators of "Islamism" viewpoint as FACT.
That is the reason why the root of the term needs to be discussed. We know the term exists....Now tells how it came about...
Best Regards,
70.55.238.80 18:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Those that point out the problems of the term should not be labelled apologists. What are they trying to defend, I wonder? But you are right that John Esposito is a real academic, not because of his positions, but because of his scholarly background. Robert Spencer in constrast is no expert.
Best Regards to you,
70.55.238.80 19:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Reasons why to strike this statement:
1. The offered links ar not valid.
2. The fact for Al Jazeera or any other broadcast company using these terms does not prove their correctness.
The English website for Al Jazeera, for example, uses these terms frequently. [45] [46].
I miss mentions of GIA, FIS and the elections in Algeria which the FLN lost. Also mention how the king of Morocco deals with local Islamism.
This Ayubi bit about how Islamists merely wish to "escape upwards" seems needlessly argumentative and POV. There's plenty of specific programs proposed by, say, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Islamists I've talked to have definite political and economic programs they want to implement. They may be bad ideas, but they're still ideas. Relevance of Ayubi's quote? Graft | talk 20:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Not All The Muslims Is Beileve In Islamism As A political ideolegy.
The Islam religion Itself Is A Secularismic Religion
Liberalism Is The Solution
This sentence, "and that western military, economic, political, social, or cultural influence on the Muslim world is against Islam." needs to be cited as coming directly from source which is interpreting the Koran, or deleted. It's an obvious interpretive leap.
Should Militant Islam redirect here instead of where it goes now? J. D. Redding 18:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Kitrus has made the claim that Daniel Pipes
argues that political stances characterized as Islamist are actually central to Islam as a faith and questions the validity of the terms "Islamist" and "Islamism".
What is the source for this claim? Please keep in mind the strict sourcing requirements of WP:BLP. Jayjg (talk) 21:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and I have removed it again. The article is about Islamism, not about Islamic militancy. -- Karl Meier 17:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Should we merge this article here. I don't think there is much of a difference. Bless sins 04:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Oromo101 19:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)Yes they are every muslim because becuase the definition islam isn't just a religion it is a way of life. the only part that won't include Islam in it is that they can take the inluence of any culture as long as it is good. Like some laws that would jepordize the muslim bliefs wouldn't be allowed. For example i was reading an article about a women walking naked amongst other pwople in New York and a police officer arrested her and the judge said you cant do anything to her. The kind of laws made by man that contradicts Islam or moral snce is just not allowed for Muslims. The political system of the western (modernized) world isn't right for 3/4 Islamists or Muslims in any part of the world since it would put man in the place of god in an Islams point of view since the Muslim Quran strictly states that you must follow the Sharia law. It doesn't matter if your in America, Russia, France, or even Mars you still have to follow these laws at your fullest extent as long as that person is willing to call himself a muslim. The word "Islamist" shouldn't even been part of the English language it should be replaced by the word Islam and it's true meaning. If you turn into a muslim that doesn't mean you have to changed every aspect of your life, change only your bad habits.
The section is mainly written based on non-academic webpages with obvious anti-Muslim tone (not to mention unsourced statements). If you want to write a section like this, you may want to use more academic, neutral and scholarly sources. There are hundreds of such books and articles around. If you really want to use such webpages, you have to include some information from webpages governed by Islamic Republic too. Azartash 12:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
"Some experts on Islam reject the notion that Islam is inherently political (e.g. Fred Halliday and John Esposito)."
If these are truly experts I'm sure they would of converted already.
This section [ [47]] is too long, too repetitious and too uninformative. We need the history, the causes, and background of Islamism, not looooong text on how the West and Islam are antagonistic to each other. -- BoogaLouie 20:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
If it is correct to asssume that Islamism is a political ideology in its own right (on par with fascism or communism), does it have a symbol of its own? Would it be a banner with the Shahada or perhaps the crescent and star? Or perhaps simply the color green? What symbols do established Islamist political parties use? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.113.8.241 ( talk) 19:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm giving this tag a week before I take it down. There may be some section that need citations but the article has over 130. Any objections? -- BoogaLouie 18:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Much of Islamic terrorism is in fact Islamist terrorism. "Terrorism" should be one of the most important sections of this page. Was this page written by bin Laden apologists? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.49.146.20 ( talk) 22:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I trimmed the sectino and moved a quote to the main Abul Ala Maududi article. This article is gettnig pretty long. -- BoogaLouie 23:57, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I have issue with the usage of the 9/11 commission report's definition of Islamism ("an Islamic militant, anti-democratic movement, bearing a holistic vision of Islam whose final aim is the restoration of the caliphate."). It appears to be written more as a criticism of Islamism than a definition. Firstly it is a description of a perceived current Islamist movement rather than the concept of Islamism and I think that is why it is able to use the adjectives 'militant' and 'anti-democratic'.
I would also question the neutrality of the source. As I mentioned previously, the immediate context is the statement that "Islamist terrorism is an immediate derivative of Islamism." User:BoogaLouie said that the neutrality of the source is not necessary for the article to be NPOV but if the source is clearly partial, shouldn't the source be mentioned in the article as well as the references section? The current wording of "Others define it as" doesn't suggest even criticism. Not forgetting also that this paragraph (the second one) is supposed to be dealing with the definition of the term, not the criticism of the ideology.
The current wording is better than describing them as broad and narrow definitions though, I have to admit.
Dormouse80 ( talk) 13:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I was truly disconcerted to see this article on wikipedia. I have always been a strong advocate of wikipedia, but I'm not sure the purpose of this page at all. Islamism appears to me to be a devised term used as a rhetorical concept, like "democracy in the middle east" or "Islamo-Fascism"; or, for that matter any number of contrived terms often used as polemical devices. The point is, after the invention of such a meaningless, all-encompassing phrase, its users are invariably asked to define it. Since they have difficulty giving a definition to so broad a phrase, they produce a vague list of 'characteristics'--traits that usually indicate a label of "islamist" is in order. The problem is, the list of characteristics is so extensive it would force most moderate muslims to evaluate deep religious questions in order to render a "yes or no" answer to your question of whether they believe in a certain article of faith deemed "islamist".
The main problem is the subsequent association of Islamism with anti-American terrorism. In fact, the article is set up not as an objective presentation, one that would be accepted by both critics and supporters of an ideology as being neutral, fair or even handed. Rather, it reads as a polemical speech, dropping hints of negative association, then masterfully building to an all-out association at the end of the second paragraph. The article reads as an indoctrination, setting up first a seemingly neutral association of Islamism with the belief in Islam as a political system. The article uses certain code words--words like un-Islamic, sharia and others--that sound to uninitiated western ears of repression. Following is an association with rules about dress, playing music, and other mundane activities, which give the reader the direct impression that islamists--defined in the first line as muslims who believe Islam is a political system--advocate the death penalty for watching television. This may be a fair characterization of what people mean when they say "Islamist", but that proves the word's purpose as a polemical device, not one that any individual would self-apply. It is an appellation, and often the figures listed have little common ideological ground, beyond that feebly used by polemicists to group them together as Islamist. However, the article appears to present these people as espousers of whichever doctrine the article is about--in this case, espousers of Islamism. We now have an ideology, a list of beliefs, and a number of people (whose biographies reveal them not to be very nice) who all share it. However, this is a fallacious circle and a distortion, and a dangerous one at that.
When a word is made up to lump all of one's enemies into a single category, and that word is then defined to include people who share a broadly held political viewpoint, what can we call it but propaganda? Legitimizing words like "islamism" by asserting they describe realistic bonds between actually disparate views enables a political discussion with real ramifications to proceed on idelogically shaky and logically fallacious ground. This serves as a disservice to all parties, none of whom benefit from the oversimplification of complex issues. This of course is to condemn even the existenceof a neutralpage on Islamism; in fact we find that the article creatively gives life to the term, provides a contrived list of candidates, and rouses the reader to an irrational hatred of the ideology. This is a kind of "straw man" article, like the straw man argumentative fallacy. A straw man ideology is created, one that is easy to discredit because wecreate the criteria. We give it both broad based characteristics, and negative associations. We then point out all the bad things about it (things that are only in the same category because we put them there, under a name we created), and discredit all those with whom we now choose to associate the term.
This means that now, whoever we associate with Islamism (and we've given ourselves a big enough net to catch any practicing Muslim and tag her or him), our readers will associate with all the bad things, and voila! they're discredited before they speak. I realize I have more than belabored the point, but I feel it important to show exactly why I feel this article should not exist, or should not be permitted to present itself as a neutral article on a realistic phenomenon on a website committed to objective investigation. 99.226.0.106 ( talk) 07:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
—Preceding Eric comment added by 99.226.0.106 ( talk) 07:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
When an article is written on a broad umbrella term that emcompasses many variations, the best way to accurately describe it, and to distill the essence of the term, is to focus on those characteristics which typify it, those which are shared by the greatest number of proponents who would be considered orthodox by most other proponents. This, of course would be tricky for Islamism, as it is not a self-applied term, and therefore determining who is and isn't is a muddy business. Nonetheless, if possible, we would want to describe the CORE CHARACTERISTICS, those broadly shared by proponents. Instead, this article characterizes extremes, linking broadly held Islamic beliefs with extreme violence and repression. A contrast of this article with the one on Zionism , which portrays another controversial term, albeit in language that would likely be considered fair by self-proclaimed Zionists, will demonstrate in what way this article is biased.
As for its vagueness: read the first paragraph of each article on islamism, socialism, and fascism. In the case of the latter two, we are given definitions which, while far from absolute, nonetheless demarcate these ideologies from others. It is this demarcation that is crucial here. While not all socialists or fascists believe the same thing, if someone agrees with a self-description consonant with these definitions, the chance is that they are a socialist or a fascist, and not something else. This kind of reverse test is failed by Islamism: the fact that someone views Islam as a political ideology does not confirm that they are in fact an Islamist, as these views are likely to be affirmed by most Middle Easterners, rendering the descriptive value of the term Islamism essentially zero.
Essentially, the term provides us with the convenience of not allowing anyone to espouse political Islam or pan-Arabism without being labelled by a term which irrefutably carries a negative stigma and an association with violence and repression. It is a red herring and an ad hominem, one which stifles both open debate and legitimate political discourse in the middle east. There are realistic phenomena exerting very real political forces in the middle east: the kind of pan-national unionism one might expect from a region of relative ethic, linguistic, religious and ideological homogeneity; as well as the sort of violent resistance one might anticipate from the brutalized citizens of totalitarian governments. Simplifying the debate by creating an abstraction to catch all resistive ideologies under a single term, then reifying that term and proposing it as a causal factor of the disparate phenomena it clumsily seeks to explain is a form of begging the question that renders the term, as stated earlier, of no descriptive value.
-Eric 99.226.0.106 ( talk) 09:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Creating a term which would not be self-applied by anyone it is used to describe, draining it of descriptive value by grouping moderate elements with extremist elements, drawing links between them that exist only on the most tenuous of grounds, may not in and of itself stifle debate, but to begin with it certainly is of little use. What does stifle debate is whenever the term is used. Immediately the question "what does islamism even mean" will sidetrack the issue; since it is clear that this article itself fails to provide an adequate answer to this question, asking it is quite legitimate. In the unlikely case that a mutually satisfactory definition could be arrived at, we still have the problem that no one would self-describe themselves as Islamist. So now, instead of comparing viewpoints, analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of each position, and synthesizing workable solutions, you have groups defending themselves against an epithet, perhaps even obscuring the ideological foundations of their arguments to avoid being labelled an Islamist. My question is, if we have a term that no one would self-apply, that is so broad it has little descriptive value, carries an emotional weight and a negative connotation, and whose definition cannot be agreed upon by the community, what is the purpose of presenting this article as an analysis of a realistic phenomenon? The fact is that the term Islamism is applied post-hoc to already existing phenomena, then proposed as a causal factor in those phenomena. Proceeding on the grounds of this circular logic is what stifles debate.
It's not that this article shouldn't exist. It should simply read very differently. Instead of attempting to describe for readers what Islamism means, the article should be about the term itself--who uses it, for what reason, what various parties think it describes, and what is going on in the Islamic world that results in the term's existence. Given the heated contention with which this article is discussed in this very section, I do not see how this article can claim to represent a "neutral point of view", and therefore, at the very least, should carry a warning indicating that this article is qualitatively different from other articles defining ideologies. This is not a page on an ideology; it is a page on a term used to characterize various ideologies.
-Eric
99.226.0.106 ( talk) 00:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
It may sound like a stupid question, but Islamist = A Fundamentalist Islam Religion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TomMcLean ( talk • contribs) 09:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not an Islamist, but a Muslim nevertheless. From what I understand, if Islamism is defined as an extreme form of Islam, I can fairly say that Islam in general, believes in democracy. There are various quotes from the Quran that emphasizes the importance of knowing other people's opinions, and hence democracy. The Islamism article underlines that Islamism is against democracy. Can someone, who is more knowledgeable than myself, edit the article to reflect that Islamism is not against democracy, and this "Islamism is against democracy" is only a publicity stunt? Ramymamlouk ( talk) 12:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Edits by 193.115.70.9 are messed up in a number of ways.
Islamism (Arabic: al-'islāmiyya) is a term that denotes various political ideologies holding that Islam is not only a religion but also has something to say regarding political systems, is like saying socialism has something to say about how the government should influence the economy. What Muslim doesn't believe Islam has something to say regarding political systems?
There is undue weight given to Graham Fuller. A quote of his was included in the previous version of the lead deleted by the anon, but now there is a big blockquote by him. (Unless I am very much mistaken blockquotes in the lead are a wikipedia no-no.) Fuller is just one many experts on Islamism.
Consequently I am going to revert the lead with a few changes.
Al-Nabhani defines ideology (mabda'a) as “…a rational doctrine from which a system emanates. The ‘aqeedah (doctrine) is a comprehensive idea about man, life and the universe… As for the system that emanates from this doctrine, it is the solutions for man's problems, the method for implementing those solutions, preserving the doctrine and conveying the ideology to others.” These systems manage three relationships, individual (morality), creator (worships) and social (systems of life). Activists like Hasan al-Banna, wrote, 'we believe Islam is an all-embracing concept which regulates every aspect of life, adjudicating on every one of its concerns and prescribing for it a solid and rigorous order.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jk54 ( talk • contribs) 13:20, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
69.149.83.224 has made edits to the Mawdudi section contradicting what was already there - whether Mawdudi was in favor of a Muslim Pakistan state - and adding a long blockquote. The problem is there are no sources given (and he messsed up the blockquote code). So I'm reverting it. - BoogaLouie ( talk) 16:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Jk54 please remember this is an encyclopedia. This is not blog for for disquisition on whatever comes to mind related in some way to the subject. The article is already very long. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 20:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
The inclusion of a definition is not a disquisition but quite necessary - please read the edits before commenting please. Jk54 ( talk) 13:17, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The article should state simply that Islamism is a Western term used to describe fundamentalist Muslims. The bulk of the article is far too long and makes 'Islamism' look like a coherent movement which as it doesn't actually exist is rather ridiculous. A point confirmed by the inclusion of Shia Hezbollah. 78.86.14.169 ( talk) 12:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
This article is based upon a ludicrous disticntion. If anything the article should be merged with the Islam article. There's no such thing as "islamism" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wasabi salafi koonkati ( talk • contribs) 09:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
There are a few POV points I tried to reword in my edit. The External Links also violate WP:EL. There ought not to be web logs and news articles, which don't provide a unique resource beyond the page. They can be cited for content, but it's not EL-like. Also I moved the organization a bit because the history/background should be near the top as its the first chronological step. Just after definition seemed okay, but if you disagree we can move it a bit. The 'history' part seemed right to follow the build up, but it wasn't quite 'history' in that sense. I just changed the title to 'specific' meaning 'specific examples.' That could probably be changed around. Lihaas ( talk) 22:24, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
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I put a tag on the article for a clear POV violation. The grand mosque seizure was called gross. It was not gross. Considering what the islams do to evreyone who is not a islam that was not gross. Plyhmrp ( talk) Plyhmrp
I dont care what islams are called. Its not gross. Period. Plyhmrp ( talk)Plyhmrp
This is a discussion page, you discuss things. Please be civil. I feel that there can be a discussion about the use of "gross", perhaps another qualifier would be more appropriate, or it could simply be reduced to "a violation". IMWeazel ( talk) 22:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Dont tell me what to do. Plyhmrp ( talk)Plyhmrp
I would like to say that the word "islamism" is not correct,because islam is a religion and not an ism.-- arastu ( talk) 10:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
mawdudi section retrimmed to a more original shape with a factual sentence moved from the main mawdudi article corresponding to his involvement in Pakistan movement —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.220.215.13 ( talk) 00:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Please bear in mind this is an encylopedia and not a user group cite for posting people's thoughts on islam, imperialism, the 3rd world, etc. With rambling remarks such as
(No one I know of and nothing in the article accuses Islamists of reacting to overdevelopment.)
Articles sould be about 30K or less and this one is already over 98. Consequently I'm going to trim edits made by lordleopold -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 18:29, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
the article has been deleted and replaced w/something else.... much ... shorter (?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.218.86.48 ( talk) 00:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_Islam links directly to the article about islam. Not sure if this is vandalism or just a bad link. Woods01 ( talk) 01:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
"However, given the instability caused by the invasion of Iraq in 2003, it seems that in order to bring that region under control again, there will be some sort of cooperation between the West and Islamist groups". This is an opinion, not an encyclopedic fact. I think it should be removed. Dberliner 22:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that the Islamic groups should not be fighting in Iraq over religions. Everyone belives something different and they don't have to change other peoples beliefs to what they belive! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.126.179.56 ( talk) 20:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the narrow definition of islamism's role as "an Islamic militant, anti-democratic movement, bearing a holistic vision of Islam whose final aim is the restoration of the caliphate." is not NPOV. Especially considering the source is the 9/11 Commision Report and the immediate context for this definition is the statement that "Islamist terrorism is an immediate derivative of Islamism." 79.68.107.72 ( talk) 23:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Do not remove or alter other users' comments. If anyone does this going forward, I will block them immediately. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 17:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)d like to once again alert all users to wikipedia policies WP:NPA, WP:3RR and WP:SOCK. Please read them and follow them if you are not already doing so. Following them will help keep our discussions productive. Timothy Usher 20:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to remind everyone that this page is only for discussion of the article. I suggest the editors take the recent archiving as an opportunity to begin again. Let's assume everyone is going to be civil and move forward on that basis. Tom Harrison Talk 21:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I am gonna start fresh. Lets just get some facts straight about the term Islamist. This term is used as a label. People are labeled Islamist instead of just plain Muslim because people OUTSIDE of the Muslim community want to define Muslims and what Islam is. The term is derogatory just as the word nigger and spick (aimed at spanish peope). Muslims do not WANT to be labeled as Islamist, the only label they want is Muslim. When writing an article such as this, everything should come from other sources. Every statement should be quoted and talked about in a nuetral view point.
Also, please don't label groups as Islamist. Regardless how feel about them, when you label deobandis, wahabis, taliban, tableeghi jamaat, etc., you are only labeling them that from your own opinion. If you go to the nigger article, they talk about the term nigga, but they dont label people as niggers or nigga. They only mention factual information about the term and how it evolved into different terms. Labeling groups as Islamist is not recommended. Instead talk about the history off the term and how it came into being and how it is used today. The previous article labels people. It does not provide any factual information about what the term is. The only portion that provides factual information are the portions that were completely re-edited. They include the new introductory section and the basic definition of the term section. Aspects of Islamism sections were edited half way through. The fundamentalists section and political sections were re-edited. The rest of the article is still the same. MuslimsofUmreka 21:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
The term is very broad and can be very misleading. Islam covers a broad area and people who are termed as being Islamist also cover a wide area. First, I would like to start with what Islam allows and what it does not allow. Then I will explain the term Islamism and what it implies. In the conclusion I will explain what I believe this article should focus on.
Islam encourages Muslims to set up an Islamic government. Muslims are told that in their lands they should run the government as it is described in the Quran and Sunnah. Islam does not however say to take over other foreign governments and establish Islam. Islam teaches that dawah should be given to non Muslims. If for whatever reason non Muslims make plans to attack Muslim lands or Muslims, then Muslims should fight those who want to attack Muslims. This does not mean starting up conflicts, but if somebody declares or is being quiet hostile towrds Muslims and it can be seen that they plan to attack Muslims, then Muslims are allowed to go attack those people. Muslims are told to go to foreign lands to give dawah and to deliver the message of Islam in a peaceful manner. Muslims are supposed to spread the religion of Islam. But the jihad stuff is only to be used when others start hostilities with Muslims.
Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, even in the times of war. Muslims are told not to begin hostilities as it can be seen the following vese of the Quran, "002.190 YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits." posted from http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.190
The term Islamism implies that anybody who follows the religion of Islam appriopriately is a bad person. The term also indentifies those Muslims who trangress the limits as being extreme Muslims. But if they transgress the limits indentified in the Quran, they can not possibly be following Islam to the extreme. The concept of the terms Islamism and Islamist imply those people who no longer wish to practice Islam as it should be practiced (those people who are part of liberal movements), as being real Muslims and correct Muslims. The term implies that people who follow Islam correctly are all bad peole and should be wiped out.
The term donates a wide category off people falling into this category. There are Muslims who wish to setup Islamic governments in their own homelands in the middle east in a peaceful manner, but if they support an Islamic government in their own homeland, they are regarded as being Islamist by their own people (who do not practice Islam properly).
The term aslo implies thsoe who attack innocent people in terrorist attacks as following Islam strictly in the extreme manner, hence the term islamism. But in fact, these people have violated laws so they can not be folowng Islam correctly.
The term Islamism and Islamist is politically in correct. Communists call themselves communists and they themselves say that they follow communism. Muslims do not say that they follow islamism, they say they follow islam. Muslims do not call themselves Islamists, they call themselves Muslims. Do you see the diference? People call hip hop culture black culture but the correct term would be hip hop culture or urban culture.
This article should focus on the term Islamism itself. It should give a history of where the term came from and how it is used today and why it is used like that.
The end MuslimsofUmreka 01:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this - merging this article with the article on Islamist Fundamentalism is not only confusing but misleading. I think there is a lot to say here about the history, evolution and usage of the term without getting into one specific aspect of its usage. Discussion of Islamic Fundamentalism should be relegated to only one aspect of this article and be added as a 'see also' link at the end.
Since Islamism isn't a terminology rooted in Islamic theology itself, but a terminology of third-party origins ascribed to movements to assert Islamic government in Muslim and nonmuslim countries, what the Quran or Hadiths say are irrelevant. Islamic theology is itself irrelevant unless you propose to prove that Islamism is a terminology rooted in the religion of Islam. It isn't.
Any rewrite must include the usage of the term, definitions offered by various sources, etc. It should go into identifying what forces have and are considered 'islamist'.
And stop using the opening phrase "Islam says". Islam isn't a person and there isn't a text that is called "Islam". There's the Quran, but the Quran is open to interpretation, and any quote originating from it regarding Shariah is contested by scholars. You could include information based on quotes of scholars who are addressing the topic of Islamism with the use of Qur'an, that's fair game..But you cannot use scripture itself to formulate your arguement. That's original research. Most Muslims in the world do not take the verses regarding living under Muslim rule as being literal in the sense that Islamic law must be implemented. Considering most Muslims don't even read Hadiths, it's inappropriate to speak of Hadiths in this article as if they define Muslim opinion on Islamic law.
The term Islamist is NOT used to as a synonym for "Muslim". I know of no credible journalist or leader who used the term "Islamist" when the term "Muslim" was appropriate. You've obviously fallen short in your research of this terminology and its usage. It is not a derogetory term.
The article CANNOT contain your personal judgements. To claim "Islamism" as a term invented to demean Muslims is ridiculous. Newspapers in Muslim countries use the term, as does Al Jazeera. There is a legitimate context where the use of the term "Islamist" and "Islamism" is appropriate. The article needs to investigate that context. All statements must be factual and sourced. Amibidhrohi 02:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
From Al-Jazeera transcripts, via Nexis:
Middle Eastern Newsmaker Wire Al-Jazeera
May 24, 2002 Friday
EMEDIA-ACC-NO:.320
LENGTH: 512 words
HEADLINE: Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, Founder of Hamas (05/24/02 22:10 Mecca), AL- JAZEERA
ANCHOR: You were accused by some corners in the Palestinian Authority of having links with foreign parties, and that you constantly worked to undermine and destroy the Palestinian Authority.
YASSIN: First of all, it's sad to enter into these diatribes. We're not ready for that. Second, we know ourselves well. We're an Islamist movement defending an Islamic homeland, and anyone who wants to call us otherwise -- everyone praises (ph) which he doesn't have.
Middle Eastern Newsmaker Wire Al-Jazeera
May 13, 2003 Tuesday
EMEDIA-ACC-NO:.320
LENGTH: 694 words
HEADLINE: Interview with Hani Al-Naqshabandi (05/13/03 00:08 Mecca), AL- JAZEERA
BODY: ANCHOR: Joining us from London, Hani Al-Naqshabandi, editor-in-chief of "Al-Majalla" newspaper. How do you see the -- what's your take on the explosions?
NAQSHABANDI: In my opinion -- in my own personal estimate, unfortunately, we look at the issue from a wrong perspective. Dealing with the problems of Islamist radicalism is not to oppress it with force but to deal with its root causes. There is more than one reason, and we need to -- and these causes need to be dealt with. One of the main causes is the American injustice in dealing with the Arab issues. Another one is the absence of the political, social and economic justice in Saudi Arabia. There are several issues that need to be addressed, and there are several lessons that need to be learned. In my estimate, fighting terrorism cannot be achieved without the use of -- with the use of force alone. Force is important, but not the only weapon.
Ill try to be more to the point this time.The reason we should know what major muslim world languages 24.7.141.159 speaks natively as he said is because he is saying "It is quite obvious that none of the other editors have come forward with being multilingual or having any skill in reading Arabic. This in and of itself puts your POV out of the sphere of NPOV because you are commenting on a non-Western topic without acknowledging non-Western sources due to language handicaps." he keeps saying things like this and that other peoples sources dont really count because they dont have the expertise he does in speaking all these languages, he is only saying trust me they dont have this concept in muslim languages. I think thats called "appeal to an authority" which in this case is himself which is fine but we should know for sure because otherwise someone might think maybe he is just making all this up or something. 67.188.110.197
I would just like to point some things out, that i think may not have been properly addressed. First, Islamism as it used today, is a term that has evolved but most prominently in modern history as a reaction to trends in though that have only really began to emerge in the late 19th century. This Islamic thought can be said to have been brought to the Arab World with Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, who was born in Iran, travelled, most significantly, through India and then arrived in Egypt. His thought had two main branches. The public branch was a very pan-Islamic anti-collonial nationalism that was based on his perception that nationalism played a very large role on the rise of the European powers. Although he wasnt the first, he was the most prominent.
His private branch of thought, reserved for his acquaintances and other ‘ulemmaa (scholars), he expressed his opinion on the need to reform Islamic theology and culture. He thought that the centuries of the door for ijtihad (lit. effort or interpretation, as in scholarly interpretation of the Islamic law) being closed had led to a hostility to reason developing and thus an inability to cope with modern technology and science. The idea was that this was not a fault in Islam itself, which was infinite and therefore could be interpreted to encompass all worldy advances, but rather in the state of the Muslim world at the time. He envisioned a group of scholarly and political elite, undertaking to and leading reform in the Islamic world.
Even, at this point, it can be labeled Islamism or Islamic Fundamentalism, in the sense that he advocated a return to fundamental principles of Islam.
What is most significant for this article, however, may be the split in thought that happened after him. Two of his friends and students in Egypt, Mohamed Abduh and Rashid Reda (Rasheed, Rachid Reda, Reza) took different sides of shit thought. Where Abduh, was a tireless, non-revolutionary rational reason-based reformer, Reda and others became increasingly alarmed at the secularism that was growing in the Arab world, emphasizing Afghani's positions on loyalty to Islam.
Abduh's thought was again split by his pupils. One group took the ideas on the compatibility between reason and revelation to imply increased reliance on reason, equated with Christian Europe. This went the secularization way. As mentioned, Reda increasingly used Afghani's and Abduh's most stringent ideas. Eventually, this evolved into turning to the thought of the strictest Islamic thinkers ushc as Ibn Taymiyya This movement became salafeyya; noun: salafi. There is often confusion surrounding the connection between slafi and wahhabi Islam. This is probably due to their both referencing Ibn Taymiyya and their common tendency towards a very back to the basics, supposedly puritanical interpretation of Islam.
This barely takes us into the first half of the 20th century. Personally, i'm kind of tired of writing at the moment. Names to look out for include: Hassan el Banna and the Muslim Brotherhood. el Hodeiby; Jama`at Islamiyya (Islamic Societies, which were often armed groups); Islamic Jihad.
There are later interactions between Egyptian violent and/or fundamentalist Islamic groups that evolved out of the line mentioned above and wahhabi Islam. This was most notable when the Islamists were shown zero tolerence shortly after the 52 revolution. This culminated in their descimation in the 60s. Many fled to the Gulf where they spread their ideas. (anecdotal: I went to school in Saudi Arabia and had many Egyptian teachers that were formerly Muslim Brotherhood). I would venture that violence was transfered this way to wahhabi Islam and this is the kind of thought that eventually led to the violent mujahideen groups trained and funded by the US in Afghanistan in the late 70s and 80s to counter communist influence. In the 90s, these same people, including Bin Laden, would turn against the United States culminating in 11 September.
I'm sorry about the lack of sources. I initially intended to say only a few lines. I think, however, i have added much food for research, for those that are interested. I'll keep coming back to see how things go. Bassemkhalifa 12:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Islamism can have many uses. Radical islamism could refer to the ideas of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood. Regular islamism refers to any political system, which uses muslim standards. The way western nations usually use christian standards. Islamic standars include modest dress, anti-abortion, Islamic economics, islamic-style court system, etc. Several examples would be nations such as Libya, the Islamic Republic of Iraq and Afghanistan, Malaysia, etc.
Libya is pan-Arab and pan-Islamic and is run by a military dictator. Libya isn't a good example of an Islamic country, but the Islamic Republic of Iran is a good example. Though, they do have that position of Supreme Leader which is against the Islamic principle of democracy... Armyrifle 15:45, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
What Islamic principle of Democracy? Wherever Islamism rules, democratic processes like free elections and such are curtailed. Jon3800 ( talk) 20:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
The article states absolutely incorrectly '..the role the Prophet Muhammad played as "rebel" during his time in Medina:[14]...' The prophet never rebelled in Makkah or Madina. Even when the Muslims were given the worst torture in Makkah for 13 years & even when they were boycotted by Qoreish for 3 yrs in Shaab Abi Taalib until they had to revert to eating tree leaves to survive, the Prophet never instructed any one to attack his torturer. At every available opportunity he would try to deliver God's message to the tormentors of Muslims peacefully with complete forbearance. The question of being 'rebel' is totally out of place as regards Madina. It did never apply there, as the state of Madina was formed by the Pledge of Aqba between the Prophet & the two tribes of Madina namely: Awas & Khazraj & the balance three tribes became party to the state by the latter Saheefa of Madina agreed & signed in 80 clauses clarifying everyone's freedom & obligation to the state of Madina. He was the head of a sovereign city-state there, so case of 'rebel' absolutely did not apply there. It is not POV, it is a lie. A deliberate attempt on part of the writer to misinform the reader distorting real facts & inventing 'fictional facts' for some ulterior motive to dis-inform.This should be clarified as such, so that an uninformed reader is not mislead. ILAKNA ( talk) 04:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Apologies if this seems/is too involved, but I wish to put this debate to rest so we can move on.
A search on [ [6]] for “Islamism” yields, yielded 2,930,000 hits. Here are the first of these, in the order in which they appear:
etc.
Note that everyone is using this term in almost precisely the same way. Were we to list and link to all the sources that use it, it would be unacceptably long.
In sum, while it is obvious that it is of fairly recent origin in English, supplanting “Islamic fundamentalism” as we’ve noted, and that Daniel Pipes has played a role in popularizing it, Islamism is at this point a term in the English language with a specific and fairly invariable definition. Whether this is “politically incorrect” as you assert is beside the point. As this is an English-language page, we should use it accordingly without unwarranted hedging.
As I recall, this was the heart of the dispute which led to the edit war, and the article being blocked to begin with. This kind of thing should not have been allowed to hold us up.
So I propose that we accept contemporary Englsh usage for what it is, and get to work on the article. Timothy Usher 02:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I keep starting my homework but then feel compelled o go near my computer, bu whatever. I am figure that it would be better to end this dispute now. I am willing to end this dispute if you all agree with the following terms.
1.) On the top of the article page, put in italics the following, This page deals with the political term Islamism, this article does not talk about islam, for an article on Islam and Muslim see Islam and Muslims
2.) Cite your sources. In the original article before the edit war it stated:
Islamism refers to anti-secular political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Islamists generally assert that Islam, as both a religion and a social system, should be practiced as a philosophy by the government. Many Islamists advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law. This stance is typically considered a form of triumphalism.
The use of the term "Islamism" is controversial. Individuals labeled Islamists often regard themselves as simply observant Muslims and oppose using the term. In contrast, moderate Muslims and liberal movements within Islam generally apply the term to distinguish themselves from groups and philosophies with which they do not identify. However, the term is often misapplied to denote Muslims who engage in violent or insurgent activities.
Instead the article should start as the following:
The term Islamism is controversial. Dictionary.com defines the term as 1. An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life. 2. The religious faith, principles, or cause of Islam. source
However, the term is usually applied to refer to political Islamic movements that are considered to have deviated from the Quran and Sunnah. Daniel Pipes defines the term as, "Islamism is an ideology that demands man's complete adherence to the sacred law of Islam and rejects as much as possible outside influence, with some exceptions (such as access to military and medical technology). It is imbued with a deep antagonism towards non-Muslims and has a particular hostility towards the West. It amounts to an effort to turn Islam, a religion and civilization, into an ideology." source
Others have defined it differently though. "Islamism is a totalitarian ideology adhered to by Muslim extremists (e.g. the Taliban, Hamas and Osama bin Laden). It is considered to be a distortion of Islam. Many Islamists engage in terrorism in pursuit of their goals.” It also includes this quote: “It is important to emphasize: Islamism is not Islam. On the contrary, it is a perversion of Islam. The traditional religion practiced by most Muslims is tolerant and moderate, an ancient faith with a rich tradition of scholarship. Islam places great emphasis on virtue, charity, and living according to God's will; it is not at all incompatible with political democracy or religious pluralism.” -Jeff Jacoby of Boston Globe" (This is what Timothy Usher posted above)
In conclusion, add citations and sources such as that and keep the tone of the article neutral as possible. If you agree to these terms, I am willing to end my side of teh dispute but only if you all agree to the above. Let me know what you think. MuslimsofUmreka 03:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
MOU,
“1.) On the top of the article page, put in italics the following, This page deals with the political term Islamism, this article does not talk about islam, for an article on Islam and Muslim see Islam and Muslims”
Re the original intro:
“Islamism refers to anti-secular political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Islamists assert that Islam, as both a religion and a social system, should be practiced as a philosophy by the government. Many Islamists advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law. This stance is typically considered a form of triumphalism.”
“The use of the term "Islamism" is controversial. Individuals labeled Islamists often regard themselves as simply observant Muslims and oppose using the term. In contrast, moderate Muslims and liberal movements within Islam generally apply the term to distinguish themselves from groups and philosophies with which they do not identify. However, the term is often misapplied to denote Muslims who engage in violent or insurgent activities.”
Re your replacement:
“The term Islamism is controversial. Dictionary.com defines the term as 1. An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life. 2. The religious faith, principles, or cause of Islam. source”
“However, the term is usually applied to refer to political Islamic movements that are considered to have deviated from the Quran and Sunah.”
If there is one thing that I do not understand is why are people like Timothy, Kyaa the catlord and others so interested in editing this page when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Kyaa the catlord lives in calorado according to his or her page and i'm certain there are NO Muslims in that state and there is no threat of terrorism there. The other people know nothing about Islam, nor are they Muslim so I do not see why this topic is so important to them. It doesnt effect them in anyway. The only reason I think of is that they are racist and want to take every oppurtunity too defame Muslims and make them look bad. Please explain to me why this topic is os important to you? MuslimsofUmreka 19:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Before he was saying if you move to Ohio youre not a real muslim anymore, maybe thats also true if you move to colorado? I think we should probably wait until he comes back cause he is the one here who knows about these things not us. 67.188.110.197
MuslimsofUmreka, I sincerely do not believe you're capable of editing this topic in a non-POV fashion. You clearly have a strong opinion regarding nonmuslims who review this particular topic. The fact that you're questioning one's motives for being here on the basis of their own religious following or location is enough for me to see that you cannot address these discussions here without carrying in your personal baggage.
Amibidhrohi
03:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Katefan I hope this is at least enough about the article for you not to get mad at me.
It sounds like what Muslim of Umreka is really saying is ISLAM IS A RELIGION MEANT TO BE APPLIED TO WIKIPEDIA ARTICLES. I mean can you really expect that someone will think anything and everything should be ruled by extreme islamic law EXCEPT wikipedia?
He said we all agree that the original version has a strong anti-Islamic bias but I dont think thats right. Maybe it was totally no good but the version now is much worse then that if its possible. its the first thing that comes up on google and its a total embarassment. and the stupidest part is that it sounds like the wikipedia administration choose to freeze it like this to begin with because he asked someone to do this. just because the article made him upset by not being extreme muslim as he would put it. Im sorry but thats true.
Why do you think he will work everything out with people when his new article is up now? If nothing happens he wins dont you think.
You asked what we should do with the article so i think the first thing we should do is go back to how it was before he changed everything to be like it is now. Thats what I think. 67.188.110.197
I did it. Now we can change it from here.
67.188.110.197
This article, as is the case with over 30 others, has had an external link added to an essay of Martin Kramer. It has been determined that these additions are link spam. When this article is unprotected could this link be removed. Full discussion of this instance of POV and self-promoting link spam vandalism can be found here Talk:Martin_Kramer#Is_Martin_Kramer_link_spamming_Wikipedia.3F -- 70.48.241.41 21:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
It isn't warranted. Amibidhrohi 05:06, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
[19] Do you have a specific source for this? This kind of assertion needs to be sourced, especially if you have something here in quotes. Who's saying what's in these quotes? Please be diligent about sourcing. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 15:59, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
MuslimsofUmreka, I have changed the introductory caveat for two reasons:
MuslimsofUmreka, I again request you to stop removing other editors' dispute tags. It is not up to you to unilaterally decide that an article is not disputed. Timothy Usher 01:38, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
For the record, I posted the below: "Islamism refers to political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Islamists generally assert that Islam is both a religion and a social system. Many Islamists advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law.
The use of the term "Islamism" is controversial. Individuals labeled Islamists often regard themselves as simply observant Muslims and oppose using the term. In contrast, moderate Muslims and liberal movements within Islam generally apply the term to distinguish themselves from groups and philosophies with which they do not identify. While virtually all Muslims regard their religion as a way of life and desire to live in accordance with Islamic values, many Muslims support peace and reject the use of their religion to justify violence, revolution, or radical views."
There is nothing racist, biased or otherwise inflammatory about it, unless you are MOU. I'd like to ask any admins who are viewing this to PLEASE step forward and put a stop to MOU's repeated slurring of my name. Kyaa the Catlord 02:06, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, I think your revisions are good. I would make one suggestion: The fact that its usage is controversial should most definitely be mentioned in the first paragraph; as it is now it's mentioned way too far down. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 13:51, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Katefan0. I'll get to work on it some more in a bit.
I can't say I entirely agree that the usage controversy should lead, perhaps that's American-centric POV though. But it if helps NPOVing or even stablizes (imagine that!) the article, it's worthwhile.
One thing I hope to fix is the duplicated Pipes quote, and reorganize things a little if not a lot. He shouldn't be the central focus of this. I just have to think of how to do it. Any ideas on this?
And thanks, Graft, hadn't gotten to that quite yet. Please do continue. Timothy Usher 01:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The only thing I can think at this time is changing "Islam refers to" to "Islamism is a controversial term referring to". I don't much like it because it suggests that the article is about the term, a theme which aleady dominates the following paragraphs which themselves were compromises. Islamism is too salient as an observable phenomenon to reduce it to a linguistic debate. Perhaps someone has a better idea.
Timothy Usher
03:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I open with this question. I have read the article, written portions of it, and I am well informed about Islam and the particular topic addressed here. However, User:24.7.141.159 (and perhaps others) have stated that they believe this article to be clearly "anti-Islamic". For my part, I do not see this. I am aware of several criticisms against the article - the most notable being the topic definition's potential, perhaps actual, confusion of a Muslim and an Islamist. Still, this does not strike me as anti-Islamic, only an area for clarification.
Ignorance seems the root of much bias. Rather than argue with each other, perhaps we can teach one another? I, for one, still have much to learn.
Here is my proposal. Let's take one point of the article - a sentence, phrase, etc. - and look at it. We can ask ourselves: Is it anti-Islamic? Is it justifiable? And so on. I invite anyone to cite from the article the best example of this bias and to briefly explain their choice. Above all, please be clear and brief. The goal here is to make your position obvious, as to a room of trusting students. Please consider that trust. As for myself, I hope to learn something. -- Vector4F 17:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
This discussion of anti-Islamic biases was moved from the archives back to the talk page. User:Pecher removed this posting and another pro-Islamic editor has been banned. It leads me to conclude that Muslim wikipedians and pro-Islamic wikipedians are not welcome on these pages. With that said, I would like to restart discussion on this topic. 24.7.141.159 09:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Hrana98 etc., I like Pecher before me have removed your recent post because the material is outdated, it is already archived, and as far as I can tell, you are violating WP:POINT. Timothy Usher 09:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
So what exactly are you trying to say? Especially with that "tread carefully" part.
I'll wait to see what others have to say about this...wouldn't want to banned like Kyaa. For my own part, in addition to the points I've raised on WP:ANI re the Deuterium sockpuppet, the basic problem with your narrative is that there is no obvious point of action re the article. Timothy Usher 10:00, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
First off, MOU isn't banned. He's been blocked for a week for engaging in personal attacks. Second, we're trying to create a NPOV article, not one that is favorable to either side. Islamism does not equal Islam in all cases. "Islamist" is used by the media to specify between moderate and liberal Muslims and Islamic causes and those which are more fundamentalist, extreme and potentially dangerous. I thought we were all on the same page that there are multiple meanings to Islamism, at least we were before MOU came and started unilaterally altering the article, even after we'd agreed on the talk page that this required discussion. All we want, imho, is to get back to where we were before he started "warring" with us over this page. Is that too much to ask? (removed that, this is actually where we'd started moving forward. Is that your intention 24? I'd like that, personally.) Kyaa the Catlord 12:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick note, Daniel Pipes is a scholar considered very radical in his interpretation and writings about Islamism. He is the one who first suggested surveilling Muslim students on campuses. His writings in academic work is highly controversial and he can thus not be used as a reference for a neutral definition. Regards, -- 217.227.31.81 16:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Calling all Muslims Islamists, who advocate a system replacement of secular state laws with Islamic law, is IMHO not precise enough as it would include peaceful groups, who see Islam as a way of life with social and political aspects. Raphael1 02:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Though I am not familiar with this word (This word is foreign to me; I think westerns have invented this word). Can anybody let me know the Islamic term for that?
The definition "Islamism refers to anti-secular political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam."
Does this supposed to refer to Iran's government? Please help me understand what is going on here. -- Aminz 00:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Timothy.
Well, then 1. It should be mentioned in the definition that westerns have invented this term. And 2. I see both “factual and neutral problems” with the usage of "anti-secular" in the definition (I need to go now but will copy/paste the Soroush’s quote in order to show why I disagree). -- Aminz 01:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
The term is derived from the Arabic word 'islamawiyya' if that helps, alternatively Islamic fundamentalism is 'al-usuliyya al-islamiyya'. -- 217.227.31.81 16:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Irishpunktom, your most recent edit is absurd. You say see talk page, but I've not seen you here.
As I've posted on your user page,
"...is a broad undefined term that usually relates to..."?
1) There's no problem with broad terms; many articles have them 2) the term is not undefined, as the article makes clear 3) usually? Can you explain where and when it doesn't? 4) please actually read the article 5) there is this tab on the top of your WP interface, between the "article" and "edit this page" buttons, called "discussion". Timothy Usher 09:08, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Islamism refers to a set of anti- secular political ideologies derived from conservative religious views of fundamentalism. Islamist ideologies hold that Islam is not only a religion, but also a political system that governs the legal, economic and social imperatives of the state according to certain interpretations of Islamic law.
Kyaa, Irishpunktom, Pecher, what do you think? Timothy Usher 09:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Kyaa and Timothy, I just realized I was misreading the passage I was editing. Sorry! I like your new suggestion Kyaa. -- Aminz 10:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, see
[22].
Timothy Usher
10:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Islamist ideologies hold that Islam is not only a religion, but also a political system that governs the legal, economic and social imperatives of the state according to its interpretation of Islamic Law.
That sentence is in the introduction and is at odds with Wikipedia articles on Islam and Sharia.
From Islam: Islām is described as a dīn, meaning "way of life" and/or "guidance".
Islamic law covers all aspects of life, from the broad topics of governance and foreign relations all the way down to issues of daily living. Islamic laws that were covered expressly in the Qur’an were referred to as hudud laws and include specifically the five crimes of theft, highway robbery, intoxication, adultery and falsely accusing another of adultery, each of which has a prescribed "hadd" punishment that cannot be forgone or mitigated. The Qur'an also details laws of inheritance, marriage, restitution for injuries and murder, as well as rules for fasting, charity, and prayer.
From Sharia: For traditional Sunni Muslims, the primary sources of Islamic law are the Qur'an, the Hadith, the unanimity of Muhammad's disciples on a certain issue (ijma), and Qiyas (drawing analogy from the essence of divine principles). Qiyas — various forms of reasoning, including by analogy — are used by the law scholars (Mujtahidun) to deal with situations where the sources provided no concrete rules. The consensus of the community or people, public interest, and others were also accepted as secondary sources where the first four primary sources allow.
Maybe the best definition is of Islamism is contained in the Islamic fundamentalist article: Islamism is ... in conflict with the secular, democratic state, based upon the widely supported Universal Rights (as in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)).
The fact is Muslims describe their faith as a deen (which includes politics) but so do Islamists. Does this mean that anyone Muslim proclaiming political ideologies sourced from Islamic scripture is automatically an Islamist? No it should not. However, this article claims that to be true. Rewording the first phrase of the introduction so it is not at odds with the Islam and Sharia articles is a prudent first step. User247 12:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Oops, forgot to include the citation request. If any editor feels the above statement to be true, then we need a mutually agreed upon citation from an impartial scholarly source. Furthermore, the articles on Islam and Sharia need to be amended properly. As it stands, this article is implying incorrectly that all Muslims are Islamists--this is wrong! Lastly, if you haven't figured it out yet, I've made me a user name finally. User247 12:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else feel that the article is approaching the Wikipedia:Spam Event Horizon in terms of all the external links and further reading? Some of them may be good reads, but wikipedia is not the place for listing worthwhile web pages and books. Thanks, Andjam 11:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
According to Menahem Milson, a professor emeritus of Arabic Literature at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, the terms "extremist Islam," "militant Islam," "radical Islam," and "Islamism" are synonymous. [32] Raphael1 14:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Life isn't fair. Labels are unfortunately a convienient way for homo sapiens to clearly define one another in an understandable way.
If I am from Europe, I'm European. If I'm from Asia, I'm Asian. The derogatory nature of such labels is unfortunately a by-product of society rather than the implied meaning of such a defining fact.
A fundamentalist, be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, Tibetan, et. al., retains such a label. It is lamentable that such a label offends the bearer, yet does not eliminate the basic meaning. If one wants to explain their stance, feel free to write an unbiased explanation. During this process we must make sure to properly define this term so it is consistant with the concepts of Islam such that we do not cast an entire religion into the way we would like it to be or wrongly equate its followers with terrorists. If one wants to delete this article on the basis of a word alone ignores the purpose of a dictionary. This article cannot be used as a soapbox to redefine and attack Islam as this would fly in the face of the ideals of Wikipedia.
I think this discussion goes into the wrong direction; Just because someone believes in an alternative state or political system, it doesn't mean that he is militant. There are many orthodox Jews who believe that it is sinful that a Jewish state was created before the occurance of the messia. This led to bomb attacks in the 1930s against Zionist establishments - by orthodox Jews. Yet it doesn't mean that today orthodox Jews in general support the destruction of their own state, even if it contradicts their religious faith. Neither would probably anyone argue that fundamentalist Christians argue to overthrow the state just because they find the government too little Christian. Equally, Muslim fundamentalists can have a different opinion about how they would like to be governed without finding it acceptable to kill people for it. Furthermore, fundamentalism is only one aspect in Islamism. There are many modern Islamists, whose ideology, e.g. that of participating in democratic elections, is rejected by some fundamentalist groups. Islamists aren't all the same so it is wrong from my point of view to generalise them into one extreme category. -- Arabist 17:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I have seemed to have lost any interest in editing this page. Very weird. I think its mostly because it brings out the worst in me. So I am officially dropping out from editing this page. MuslimsofUmreka 03:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed the tag because reading over this page, the issue was clearly that some editors deputed the term "Islamism" period. That doesn't warrant a disputed tag on the article, especially as it clearly states that the term is controversial. If anyone can point to specific cases of POV in the article or specific factual errors, please state them here so we can fix them, rather than reinserting the tag. Armon 12:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
"Fundamentalist" describes a movement to return to what is considered the defining or founding principles of the religion. It has especially come to refer to any religious enclave that intentionally resists identification with the larger religious group in which it originally arose, on the basis that fundamental principles upon which the larger religious group is supposedly founded have become corrupt or displaced by alternative principles hostile to its identity. [...] In Islam they (fundamentalists) are jama'at (Arabic: (religious) enclaves with connotations of close fellowship) self-consciously engaged in jihad (struggle) against Western culture that suppresses authentic Islam (submission) and the God-given (Shari'ah) way of life.
So if islamic fundamentalists are enclaves self-consciously engaged in jihad (struggle) against Western culture that suppresses authentic Islam and Islamism describes a set of political ideologies derived from Islamic fundamentalism, why doesn't the definition of Islamism include a reference to the "struggle against Western culture"? Raphael1 22:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I've moved the discussion here, as the previous section was getting visually confusing. The relevant part of Islamic fundamentalism reads as follows:
There is no problem here vis-a-vis the Islamism definition, as fundamentalism is presented as a more general term which includes a focus on personal practice rather than political ideology. Islamic fundamentalism is said here to *describe* Islamism (among other things), not to *be defined by* it. Those are logically inverse concepts: if A describes B, B can (at least in part) be defined by A. The sentence "Islamism describes a set of political ideologies derived from Islamic fundamentalism" could perhaps be profitably rephrased but makes perfect logical sense. Timothy Usher 01:08, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Can't resist to chime in here: My rule of thumb in distinguishing and labeling movements as 'islamist' or 'fundamentalist' has been this: Like atheist and agnostic, which are similarly often confused in public discourse, one can be:
But first, 3 more concepts:
E (usually nInF initially) will frequently pool with M to fight back T, the underlying default scenario in much of the muslim world. (development model). If E and M are relatively successful in fighting T, T may turn into nIF to immunize themselves against further onslaught, by seeking the protection of the nInF E. If M's project is frustrated, parts of M may turn into InF, abandoning M, and try short-circuiting nInF to become the new E. Thus, nIF is a protective move by T against M and E. InF is a secondary tactic of frustrated M, designed to make themselves the new E. InF will (when it is not yet E itself) frequently try to enlist the help (in overthrowing the old E) of T by posturing as, or becoming IF, thereby turning T into IF (where T was nIF before). Simultaneously, to defend themselves against a potential InF/IF alliance, the nInF E will try to ally themselves with T by turning nIF, or with InF by becoming InF themselves, thus turning E against M in both cases.
Again, in a nutshell:
I admit thas this may be a bit 80s and 90s slang, but I've been 'out of the loop' for a while, and definitions may have shifted in the meantime. But the above will be widely recognizable for anybody familiar with (European) ME studies at the time.
ALL of the 4 flavours a)-d) above of course ultimately envision unity of state and Islam. There just is no "render untu Cesar..." in Islam. The nInF faction of course, is only muted in this regard. To remain part of the elite, they have to accept the powers-that-be, and sing to their tune. In a nIF (and a successful IF) system the state more or less disappears, so that the traditional actors will hold both secular and rudimental religious powers. In an InF system, the new elite will hold both powers, or will - more realistically - employ the old religious E to continue elaborately safeguarding the religious sphere according to the new framework.
ALL of the 4 flavours a)-d) above have at times engaged in violence against opponents (as has basically every group you care to mention - e.g. vegetarians) but none of them can be defined by doing or not doing so, because all of them could conceiveably continue to exist as the discernible groups they are, without ever engaging in violence again.
I don't mean all this as a piece of original research. Rather, if you look at a broad spectrum of literature on the subject (like the Chicago Fundamentalism Project and other major players in academic ME stuff) this is the common denominator that will emerge. Many journalists will just use whatever crosses their mind first: Islamism, Fundamentalism... all part of a soup they don't undestand. And people like Pipes or al-Banna jr. are just mangling and re-interpreting perfectly established concepts for political lobbying purposes. The article should not give undue weight to their ideosyncracies. Azate 22:34, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I am against merging (for reasons above, etc.) We should also try to close the merge tag since it's been on for quite some time.
gren
グレン
14:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
(started by Armon please add some more)
MOU's broken his word. Be aware that any edits in the near future are most likely going to be transient unless they meet his POV. Kyaa the Catlord 22:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
MuslimsofUmreka wrote, "The term itself is considered to be very controverisal. Most eduacted people avoid the term."
The first sentence is already in the article, first sentence, fourth paragraph, where the controversy is specified, although it certainly benefit from better citation. "is considered to be..." is weaselly. Finally, you shouldn't say that educated people avoid the term where you really mean that they "should" avoid it. "Islamism" is hardly a word one is likely to hear too much in less-educated circles. Your addition is thus, at least, inaccurate. Timothy Usher 05:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Dunno if this is appropriate or helpful at all. But this [38] article shows a democratically elected moderate islamist, who "would not outlaw the famous Comoran lavish wedding ceremonies or force women to cover their hair". Another thing worth mentioning is that he doesn't think, that the "overwhelmingly Muslim Comoros" are "ready to become an Islamic republic". Finally, the sub-header states that he is "seen as a moderate Islamist", but it does not state who "sees" him that way. On the other hand, his political opponents says "he is an Islamic extremist".
Can this article can be used in this article at all? It is quite ambiguious, and any conclusions drawn from this article could be seen as OR (I know that what I just concluded was in itself borderline OR, if not obvious OR). Maybe I should make a WP profile. Iafrate 10:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The article Islamic State is in a deplorable condition at the moment. I heaped some jumbled brainstorming text excerpts on its talk page for future expansion. Will work on it later, but I'm no expert, help welcome. -- tickle me 13:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Whoa! Where's all the stuff about terrorist bombings? This is a major part of Islamism/Islamist Fundamentalism and it's not here. Can someone provide more information on this and some links. (Anonymous User) May 24, 2006
Ummm.. it is well known that the Koran advocates an entire system including Government. All people that follow the Koran (i.e. Muslims) believe this. I don't understand what the differentiation between "Islamic" and "Islamist" is other than I hear the latter tossed around by elements of the media to somehow denigrate those to whom they are applying the latter label as somehow not being 'true muslims' (?) So in usage it is not a matter of being a "fundamentalist", it is a matter of someone whom the speaker feels is not a true Muslim. This really needs to be clarified AT THE BEGINNING OF THE ARTICLE. Not that it would somehow rob me of a right to an opinion, but I am not Islamic/Islamist, Jewish/Judaist, or Christian/Christianist. Sarastro777 21:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The last sentence doesn't make sense to me, even though I have read it five times. Please rephrase. Secondly... "..authentically Islamic society is.." this is my point the word makes a judgment about whether someone is 'authentic' follower of Islam or some fundamentalist pseudo-"Islamist." That's going to always be in the eye of the beholder. Typically we accept anyone that professes to be a follower of Mohammed as a "Muslim" as similar to "Christian" is a follower or bleiever in Jesus even though there is wide variation in exact belief. It becomes laughable to start labeling people as "ists" when we don't see them as authentic because they vary against our conception of what is authentic belief (which includes a socio political outlook in the Koran) or not. I note the many people linked to this article are done so because the editors are trying to discredit them as somehow less than authentic Muslim. Sarastro777 16:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for adding the extra info. I guess I still don't see the real difference between an Islamic person and an "Islamist" person. The article does not convey this clearly. As of my last reading, the differentiation of 'fundamentalist' was mentioned. I don't see how this clearly differentiates one from the other. If this neologized word warrants an article then I would think this could be explained simply in one sentence or two, at least so that the casual browser could understand. Detail obviously to follow.
I think part of my confusion is that the last paragraph starts "When a Westerner labels someone an Islamist... that identifies that individual as ... under the category of Islamism." That's really circular logic, so I am not able to grasp this differentiation. This needs to be made clear in the article in order for it be rigorous and understandable to other not familiar with the term. Sarastro777 21:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Is this Islamism a combination of "Islam" and Fundamental"ism"? That would certainly make sense whether or not you agree with the usage of the word, at least I could understand what it means. Sarastro777 21:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Concerns in Talk:Islamism#Citation_needed_and_Islamism_at_odds_with_Wikipedia_Islam_Project were never addressed. The article still has those same glaring errors. User247 21:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The Nation, May 15, 2006 issue, has two articles that may be of interest to those working on the present article, especially since both are (vaguely) book reviews and hence point at a lot of sources.
Online at [39] and [40], respectively, but I think you need a Nation subscription to access them.Anyway, should be available in any decent U.S. public or academic library. - Jmabel | Talk 20:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Very simply, these are NOT the same thing. At all. They may have similiar beliefs and goals, however Wahhabism developed in the 18th century Arab Peninsula (what is now Saudi Arabia). Salafi thought came to prominence much later (in the 20th century). Bassemkhalifa 11:13, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Just a note, even Islamism, Salafism, and Wahabism are not the same thing. Islamism is a general term, which incorporates a variety of groups and streams, many of which contradict and hate each other (for instance, look at the relations between Saudi Arabia and Iran, two supposedly Islamic states). Salafism is an ideology of turning back towards the examples of the Prophet Mohammed and the first four caliphs, but in a more radical form than mainstream Muslims (who after all would also all support the statement that the Prophet Mohammed is a model for all Muslims), which often implies that salafis do not pray with other non-Salafi Muslims. Wahabism is a special stream in Islamic schools of thought, mainly present in Saudi Arabia (and hardly anywhere else), interpreting Islam in a way many Islamists elsewhere find quite distorted. Regards, -- 217.227.31.81 16:39, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I think the current problem is that there are people like me who are writing articles and want to put radical islamist groups into a link. We want to have a term that means "Those that are against the West and that call for the Destruction of Israel. Basically, they are Fundamentalist Islamic terror groups such as Al Quaida, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, PLO and the such. People are telling us not to use the word Islamist, or as I've tried in the past, Islamofascist, but apparently, that's not good for many of you. It's not Islam groups which has replaced several of my links in the past, because Islam groups could be a local non-profit organization that helps disabled children. What word to use if not Islamist? We tried to use terrorists but you've taken that out of the vocabulary. Don't say Palestinian Militias because it doesn't accurately represent their background or intentions as stated in their various charters.
Please check Netaji 's anti islam comments on my talk page. [41] and here [42]. Synopsis- "There is only one kind of Islam. The kind that blows things up" and " I'm not upset about fundamentalism in Islam because there is no fundamentalism in Islam. Islam ITSELF is 'fundamentalist', in the sense of Intolerance, Slaughter, Looting, Arson, Molestation of women, ie I-S-L-A-M." Haphar 19:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is an embarrassment. It's like an Onion parody only more boring. It's repetitious and full or useless filler:
"Some western countries consider theocratic philosophies a threat to their status as secular nation states..."
"Some Muslims disagree with the ideologies and activities of those identified as Islamists..."
Tell us something we don't know!
Fundamentalism, Islamicism, Jihadist, Islamofacist.....
All of these terms are made up by Western ideology to represent or misrepresent Islam. As such, they are inaccurate to say the least. If I could get some of the Arab speaking Muslims to give us the Arab term for Islamism we could shed some light on the issue. I doubt that this will happen because they is no such word in the Islamic lexicon. These articles should state clearly that these terms are a Western construction, rather than an Islamic one.
(Everyone, please sign your comments.) It's a ridiculous argument to say that Western labels are inherently malicious or improper and that Islamic/Arabic labels are somehow more accurate and representative. Aside from it's blatant disregard for scholarship of all sorts, such a position naively assumes that the Arabic language is somehow immune to ideological "pollution". -- Vector4F 05:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I want to point out that you assume just a tad too much regarding my profession. So I would urge you to keep this discussion civilized and not to resort to personal attacks to validate your view point.
I respect that you have an opinion on the issue.
Islam is a religion, rather than a "Movement." If you want to call Islam a Movement, then do you consider Judaism and Christianity "Movements" also?
I think that you are assuming that Muslims who follow these doctrines of "Islamism" do not define themselves. Now even if this is true, why is the word "Islam" attached to the Western definition of Islamism? We indeed could call them "Salafis" or "Wahabis" or terms which the Muslim world already uses to define these groups. These terms do exist in the Muslim world, but are not being used in the West.
It is because CERTAIN elements of the West seeks to marginalize Islam.
It is important to realize that Islam and all other ideologies want to marginalize their competitors.
Like I said earlier, ALL ideologies are battling each other for supremacy. I did not say that Islam is immune from that. But it seems that we are implicitly taking the Western perspective as the Truth.
This is why I am discussing these terms which ultimately do not portray ISLAM in a positive light. We can discuss these terms semiotically, as Saussurian fashion, if that is academic enough?
I just want to highlight if nothing else, that these terms which are relatively new are loaded and are not an innocent attempt to better understand and detail these Movements.
Best Regards,
70.55.238.80 19:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)AP
I would tend to agree with the comment on the use of the term Islamism (or oher terms) without qualifying the controversy over the labels and what they mean. There is absolutely no doubt that the groups to whom these terms are used to refer do not like the labels as they all consider themselves to be Muslims, practicing the correct interpretation of Islam. Now, while their opinion may not be all that relevant, if we're going to talk scholarship, most academic scholarship on Active Islam/Political Islam/Islamism or Ideology in the Middle East tends to acknowledge this problem. Unfortunately, as evidenced by the citation on this page, some people are not very clear on what is a legitimate, citable source. I would draw your attentions to the work by Professor Saad Eldin Ibrahim and the Ibn Khaldun Center. The International Crisis Group also has a good study on Islamism that is accessible off of their website. I would also suggest a search through the Arabist.net archives for articles on the Muslim Brotherhood and other 'Islamist' movements. I would especially point your attention to an article by Mona El Ghobashy. A scanned copy is available on the Arabist. Bassemkhalifa 17:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
As Bassemkhalifa rightly points out, there are many Arab scholars who have addressed this issue. In the world of academia I would venture to say that Saad Eldin Ibrahim has a greater standing that Robert Spencer, whose hatred for Islam is covered by a thin veneer of psuedo-intellectualism. We have to acknowledge the fact that Muslim and Arab scholars have explored this issue.
70.55.238.80 18:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I would also like to suggest an, although slightly dated (mid nineties), book called: Bitter Legacy by Professor Paul Salem, a Lebanese academic. The book does a very good job providing a basis for understanding ideology in the Arab world. He looks not only at the different ideologies, but also traces their origins and frames them in their social, political, religious contexts. I strongly suggest leafing through at least the relevant parts, if you can get your hands on the book.
Bassemkhalifa
09:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The books included in this section make it a travesty. They are ALL filled with anti-Islamic rhetoric and the list needs to be balanced out. Also, those books have nothing to do with "Islamism" in the sense of a political theory. Wallah96 21:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Wallah, I have tried to add a few books with alternative and more balanced views. I hardly know any of the ones that were listed there before and I don't believe they are highly important ones either. -- 217.227.31.81 16:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
A part of islamic belief is in the sharia, how can there now be a seperate legal term that splits islam into religion and political? This is nonsense, Islam is not Christianity it is a religion with a political system, i think this is a pov. Thus Islam = shariah-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 07:55, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The edit [43] by user HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) who's contributions [44] do seem to use the word "POV" a lot plus their desire to delete the article would indicate that the worldview and dispute about tags are spurious for this article. What do others think ? The article does seem "balanced". It'll never be clean cut as Sharia seems essential to Islam but as a body of law that is clearly at odds with European Human rights law so there will always be a difference in "worldviews" of muslims in Sharia based countries and say so called secular European countries. Ttiotsw 11:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The term is a Western invention which has no analogue in Islamic thought. It is consistent with an ideology that seeks to marginalize Islam. This is the impetus behind the creation of the terms "fundamentalist","radical Islam", and "Jihadist." These terms implicitly posit that there is an acceptable brand of Islam, as opposed to this "radical" brand which is unacceptable. It is no coincidence that the "Modern Muslim" espouses ideas in line with Western thought. Hence, they are bandied as model Muslims. Certain people may protest this viewpoint. However, we agree that the word fundamentalist has a negative connotation. Yet a fundamentalist is one who follows the....fundamentals, the key principles of their religion?! That strongly suggests that Islam's principles are negative and immoral. Now let us break down the word "Jihadist." As a Muslim I know that that the highest level of Jihad is the internal fight against one's own desire and to live a selfless life. As such every Muslim is urged to live a virtuous life. However, certain elements of the West seek to reduce the term Jihad to include blowing oneself up and collecting 70 virgins in heaven. This is not an oversight because information is readily available in this increasingly small world that we live in. No, information pertaining to Islam is being purposefully distorted and demonized. That is why so many individuals, especially Muslims are fighting to prevent purposeful misrepresentations of their religion being disseminated.
This article has been slapped with tags for a reason.
Best Regards,
70.55.238.80 18:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I've reworded the introduction for clarity, and tweaked some of the links.
I've also noted that the term is a neologism, and mentioned that the distinction between islam and islamism is somewhat unclear. My understanding is that Islam says that all Muslims 'should' live in an Islamic state, but there is a great deal of disagreement as to how strong this obligation is, ranging from vaguely preferable to violently necessary.
I'm aware that the words "violently opposed" could mean "prepared to use violence" or "strongly opposed". This is consciously ambigous, because the term Islamism is sometimes used to mean both those groups, and sometimes only to mean those prepared to use violence. There's probably a better way to address that ambiguity.
I've moved and reworded this sentance, because what it says is true of all islamists, not just historical ones.
I've moved this paragraph here because it needs to be cleaned up and put somewhere, probably not back into the introduction.
There are still a couple of sections that would benefit from being merged into other sections, but I'll leave this here for now.
'Post 9/11 Issues' should probably be merged into 'recent history'
'Fear of Cultural Hegemony of the West' should probably be merged into 'Islamism and modern political theory' which should probably be expanded and moved before History.
And arguably, recent history should be extracted into its own section, and moved to the top, given that it is probably of more importance to the reader than the rest of the history section.
Regards, Ben Aveling 02:26, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
There is so many problems with this article, but let me just touch upon some key issues. Islam is a complete way of life. As such there is NO distinction between religion and state. The idea that Islamist are the only ones that believe this is wrong. This idea is established in the religion. I am afraid that a total rewrite is needed in order to establish this term clearly as a Western construction. Once again, there is no analogous word in the Islamic lexicon to denote "Islamist." I am not foolishly arguing that the term was not exist. But due diligence must be carried out on the origin of the word.
In terms of the idea that Muslims should live in an Islamic State, the general consensus is that Muslims DO NOT wage war to make that a reality for those living in non-muslim lands. Also, Muslims are urged to abide by the laws of the country which they choose to reside. This is very clear.
I could go on at length to discuss the problematic nature of the term, but the paragraph that is mentioned alluding to the multi-faceted nature of the ideology indicates in itself that the term CANNOT be accurately defined because it is indeed an umbrella term. Hence, if accuracy is what we hope to achieve in Wikipedia we must consign ourselves to the idea that this article as it stands is erroneous, unfocused, and suffers from a stilted POV.
I apologize if I sounded too haughty, and I appreciate all of your work and do not want to belittle your endeavours. But if I can only impart one idea it is that the term does not exist in Islam. (Neither does Fundamentalism, Jihadist, et al) If we want to discuss these terms, we must firstly state that these are western terms, and chart the origins and implications of these terms.
Best Regards,
70.55.238.80 16:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
User:70.55.238.80; It does not matter what you think, do you think those who pay for wiki care what you think? Then think twice before wasting you time! Thanks for listening. Kiumars
Guys this section looks like an article from Jerusalem post! I can put many citations on it but there would be too many! You better come up with more convincing arguments and present fact and figures not rumors and fantasies. Can you? Ok, let’s try. Kiumars
I'd just like to suggest that the Muslim Brotherhood section be revisted. Here are the broad lines that i think need to be addressed:
In my opinion it is not enough to say that the term is a neologism, and therefore this term is loaded with ideological bias. And consequently, the Western root of the term does not need to be discussed. This article is a little too top heavy in detailing what certain invested parties would like us to believe about Islam. My suggestion is to add a solid paragraph at the beginning to show the birth of the term and discuss its problematic nature. Therefore everything written below this coda can be contextualized as not representing Islam itself, but rather how the creators of the term Islamism view Islam. Perhaps this way a huge rewrite is not necessary, but the exploration of the term is framed.
Best Regards,
70.55.238.80 15:23, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
We know that the term exists. And we also know that Al-Jazeera uses the term in their English broadcasts. But the Al-Jazeera usage ONLY proves the terms existence, which we are not contesting. What is being contested is the lack of etymology of the term. Just from a factual perspective the opening paragraph is shaky because Islam is viewed as a COMPLETE way of life. This idea is not a radical idea but one which is established in mainstream Islam.
Secondly, the so-called experts of Islam mentioned (Robert Spencer et al) are far from experts. rather, these individuals have a long and documented history of anti-Islamic bias.
The question that I ask myself is why is there so much resistance to showing the Western origins of this term in this article? The way that the article is fashioned presently, it merely states the creators of "Islamism" viewpoint as FACT.
That is the reason why the root of the term needs to be discussed. We know the term exists....Now tells how it came about...
Best Regards,
70.55.238.80 18:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Those that point out the problems of the term should not be labelled apologists. What are they trying to defend, I wonder? But you are right that John Esposito is a real academic, not because of his positions, but because of his scholarly background. Robert Spencer in constrast is no expert.
Best Regards to you,
70.55.238.80 19:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Reasons why to strike this statement:
1. The offered links ar not valid.
2. The fact for Al Jazeera or any other broadcast company using these terms does not prove their correctness.
The English website for Al Jazeera, for example, uses these terms frequently. [45] [46].
I miss mentions of GIA, FIS and the elections in Algeria which the FLN lost. Also mention how the king of Morocco deals with local Islamism.
This Ayubi bit about how Islamists merely wish to "escape upwards" seems needlessly argumentative and POV. There's plenty of specific programs proposed by, say, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Islamists I've talked to have definite political and economic programs they want to implement. They may be bad ideas, but they're still ideas. Relevance of Ayubi's quote? Graft | talk 20:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Not All The Muslims Is Beileve In Islamism As A political ideolegy.
The Islam religion Itself Is A Secularismic Religion
Liberalism Is The Solution
This sentence, "and that western military, economic, political, social, or cultural influence on the Muslim world is against Islam." needs to be cited as coming directly from source which is interpreting the Koran, or deleted. It's an obvious interpretive leap.
Should Militant Islam redirect here instead of where it goes now? J. D. Redding 18:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Kitrus has made the claim that Daniel Pipes
argues that political stances characterized as Islamist are actually central to Islam as a faith and questions the validity of the terms "Islamist" and "Islamism".
What is the source for this claim? Please keep in mind the strict sourcing requirements of WP:BLP. Jayjg (talk) 21:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and I have removed it again. The article is about Islamism, not about Islamic militancy. -- Karl Meier 17:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Should we merge this article here. I don't think there is much of a difference. Bless sins 04:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Oromo101 19:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)Yes they are every muslim because becuase the definition islam isn't just a religion it is a way of life. the only part that won't include Islam in it is that they can take the inluence of any culture as long as it is good. Like some laws that would jepordize the muslim bliefs wouldn't be allowed. For example i was reading an article about a women walking naked amongst other pwople in New York and a police officer arrested her and the judge said you cant do anything to her. The kind of laws made by man that contradicts Islam or moral snce is just not allowed for Muslims. The political system of the western (modernized) world isn't right for 3/4 Islamists or Muslims in any part of the world since it would put man in the place of god in an Islams point of view since the Muslim Quran strictly states that you must follow the Sharia law. It doesn't matter if your in America, Russia, France, or even Mars you still have to follow these laws at your fullest extent as long as that person is willing to call himself a muslim. The word "Islamist" shouldn't even been part of the English language it should be replaced by the word Islam and it's true meaning. If you turn into a muslim that doesn't mean you have to changed every aspect of your life, change only your bad habits.
The section is mainly written based on non-academic webpages with obvious anti-Muslim tone (not to mention unsourced statements). If you want to write a section like this, you may want to use more academic, neutral and scholarly sources. There are hundreds of such books and articles around. If you really want to use such webpages, you have to include some information from webpages governed by Islamic Republic too. Azartash 12:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
"Some experts on Islam reject the notion that Islam is inherently political (e.g. Fred Halliday and John Esposito)."
If these are truly experts I'm sure they would of converted already.
This section [ [47]] is too long, too repetitious and too uninformative. We need the history, the causes, and background of Islamism, not looooong text on how the West and Islam are antagonistic to each other. -- BoogaLouie 20:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
If it is correct to asssume that Islamism is a political ideology in its own right (on par with fascism or communism), does it have a symbol of its own? Would it be a banner with the Shahada or perhaps the crescent and star? Or perhaps simply the color green? What symbols do established Islamist political parties use? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.113.8.241 ( talk) 19:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm giving this tag a week before I take it down. There may be some section that need citations but the article has over 130. Any objections? -- BoogaLouie 18:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Much of Islamic terrorism is in fact Islamist terrorism. "Terrorism" should be one of the most important sections of this page. Was this page written by bin Laden apologists? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.49.146.20 ( talk) 22:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I trimmed the sectino and moved a quote to the main Abul Ala Maududi article. This article is gettnig pretty long. -- BoogaLouie 23:57, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I have issue with the usage of the 9/11 commission report's definition of Islamism ("an Islamic militant, anti-democratic movement, bearing a holistic vision of Islam whose final aim is the restoration of the caliphate."). It appears to be written more as a criticism of Islamism than a definition. Firstly it is a description of a perceived current Islamist movement rather than the concept of Islamism and I think that is why it is able to use the adjectives 'militant' and 'anti-democratic'.
I would also question the neutrality of the source. As I mentioned previously, the immediate context is the statement that "Islamist terrorism is an immediate derivative of Islamism." User:BoogaLouie said that the neutrality of the source is not necessary for the article to be NPOV but if the source is clearly partial, shouldn't the source be mentioned in the article as well as the references section? The current wording of "Others define it as" doesn't suggest even criticism. Not forgetting also that this paragraph (the second one) is supposed to be dealing with the definition of the term, not the criticism of the ideology.
The current wording is better than describing them as broad and narrow definitions though, I have to admit.
Dormouse80 ( talk) 13:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I was truly disconcerted to see this article on wikipedia. I have always been a strong advocate of wikipedia, but I'm not sure the purpose of this page at all. Islamism appears to me to be a devised term used as a rhetorical concept, like "democracy in the middle east" or "Islamo-Fascism"; or, for that matter any number of contrived terms often used as polemical devices. The point is, after the invention of such a meaningless, all-encompassing phrase, its users are invariably asked to define it. Since they have difficulty giving a definition to so broad a phrase, they produce a vague list of 'characteristics'--traits that usually indicate a label of "islamist" is in order. The problem is, the list of characteristics is so extensive it would force most moderate muslims to evaluate deep religious questions in order to render a "yes or no" answer to your question of whether they believe in a certain article of faith deemed "islamist".
The main problem is the subsequent association of Islamism with anti-American terrorism. In fact, the article is set up not as an objective presentation, one that would be accepted by both critics and supporters of an ideology as being neutral, fair or even handed. Rather, it reads as a polemical speech, dropping hints of negative association, then masterfully building to an all-out association at the end of the second paragraph. The article reads as an indoctrination, setting up first a seemingly neutral association of Islamism with the belief in Islam as a political system. The article uses certain code words--words like un-Islamic, sharia and others--that sound to uninitiated western ears of repression. Following is an association with rules about dress, playing music, and other mundane activities, which give the reader the direct impression that islamists--defined in the first line as muslims who believe Islam is a political system--advocate the death penalty for watching television. This may be a fair characterization of what people mean when they say "Islamist", but that proves the word's purpose as a polemical device, not one that any individual would self-apply. It is an appellation, and often the figures listed have little common ideological ground, beyond that feebly used by polemicists to group them together as Islamist. However, the article appears to present these people as espousers of whichever doctrine the article is about--in this case, espousers of Islamism. We now have an ideology, a list of beliefs, and a number of people (whose biographies reveal them not to be very nice) who all share it. However, this is a fallacious circle and a distortion, and a dangerous one at that.
When a word is made up to lump all of one's enemies into a single category, and that word is then defined to include people who share a broadly held political viewpoint, what can we call it but propaganda? Legitimizing words like "islamism" by asserting they describe realistic bonds between actually disparate views enables a political discussion with real ramifications to proceed on idelogically shaky and logically fallacious ground. This serves as a disservice to all parties, none of whom benefit from the oversimplification of complex issues. This of course is to condemn even the existenceof a neutralpage on Islamism; in fact we find that the article creatively gives life to the term, provides a contrived list of candidates, and rouses the reader to an irrational hatred of the ideology. This is a kind of "straw man" article, like the straw man argumentative fallacy. A straw man ideology is created, one that is easy to discredit because wecreate the criteria. We give it both broad based characteristics, and negative associations. We then point out all the bad things about it (things that are only in the same category because we put them there, under a name we created), and discredit all those with whom we now choose to associate the term.
This means that now, whoever we associate with Islamism (and we've given ourselves a big enough net to catch any practicing Muslim and tag her or him), our readers will associate with all the bad things, and voila! they're discredited before they speak. I realize I have more than belabored the point, but I feel it important to show exactly why I feel this article should not exist, or should not be permitted to present itself as a neutral article on a realistic phenomenon on a website committed to objective investigation. 99.226.0.106 ( talk) 07:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
—Preceding Eric comment added by 99.226.0.106 ( talk) 07:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
When an article is written on a broad umbrella term that emcompasses many variations, the best way to accurately describe it, and to distill the essence of the term, is to focus on those characteristics which typify it, those which are shared by the greatest number of proponents who would be considered orthodox by most other proponents. This, of course would be tricky for Islamism, as it is not a self-applied term, and therefore determining who is and isn't is a muddy business. Nonetheless, if possible, we would want to describe the CORE CHARACTERISTICS, those broadly shared by proponents. Instead, this article characterizes extremes, linking broadly held Islamic beliefs with extreme violence and repression. A contrast of this article with the one on Zionism , which portrays another controversial term, albeit in language that would likely be considered fair by self-proclaimed Zionists, will demonstrate in what way this article is biased.
As for its vagueness: read the first paragraph of each article on islamism, socialism, and fascism. In the case of the latter two, we are given definitions which, while far from absolute, nonetheless demarcate these ideologies from others. It is this demarcation that is crucial here. While not all socialists or fascists believe the same thing, if someone agrees with a self-description consonant with these definitions, the chance is that they are a socialist or a fascist, and not something else. This kind of reverse test is failed by Islamism: the fact that someone views Islam as a political ideology does not confirm that they are in fact an Islamist, as these views are likely to be affirmed by most Middle Easterners, rendering the descriptive value of the term Islamism essentially zero.
Essentially, the term provides us with the convenience of not allowing anyone to espouse political Islam or pan-Arabism without being labelled by a term which irrefutably carries a negative stigma and an association with violence and repression. It is a red herring and an ad hominem, one which stifles both open debate and legitimate political discourse in the middle east. There are realistic phenomena exerting very real political forces in the middle east: the kind of pan-national unionism one might expect from a region of relative ethic, linguistic, religious and ideological homogeneity; as well as the sort of violent resistance one might anticipate from the brutalized citizens of totalitarian governments. Simplifying the debate by creating an abstraction to catch all resistive ideologies under a single term, then reifying that term and proposing it as a causal factor of the disparate phenomena it clumsily seeks to explain is a form of begging the question that renders the term, as stated earlier, of no descriptive value.
-Eric 99.226.0.106 ( talk) 09:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Creating a term which would not be self-applied by anyone it is used to describe, draining it of descriptive value by grouping moderate elements with extremist elements, drawing links between them that exist only on the most tenuous of grounds, may not in and of itself stifle debate, but to begin with it certainly is of little use. What does stifle debate is whenever the term is used. Immediately the question "what does islamism even mean" will sidetrack the issue; since it is clear that this article itself fails to provide an adequate answer to this question, asking it is quite legitimate. In the unlikely case that a mutually satisfactory definition could be arrived at, we still have the problem that no one would self-describe themselves as Islamist. So now, instead of comparing viewpoints, analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of each position, and synthesizing workable solutions, you have groups defending themselves against an epithet, perhaps even obscuring the ideological foundations of their arguments to avoid being labelled an Islamist. My question is, if we have a term that no one would self-apply, that is so broad it has little descriptive value, carries an emotional weight and a negative connotation, and whose definition cannot be agreed upon by the community, what is the purpose of presenting this article as an analysis of a realistic phenomenon? The fact is that the term Islamism is applied post-hoc to already existing phenomena, then proposed as a causal factor in those phenomena. Proceeding on the grounds of this circular logic is what stifles debate.
It's not that this article shouldn't exist. It should simply read very differently. Instead of attempting to describe for readers what Islamism means, the article should be about the term itself--who uses it, for what reason, what various parties think it describes, and what is going on in the Islamic world that results in the term's existence. Given the heated contention with which this article is discussed in this very section, I do not see how this article can claim to represent a "neutral point of view", and therefore, at the very least, should carry a warning indicating that this article is qualitatively different from other articles defining ideologies. This is not a page on an ideology; it is a page on a term used to characterize various ideologies.
-Eric
99.226.0.106 ( talk) 00:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
It may sound like a stupid question, but Islamist = A Fundamentalist Islam Religion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TomMcLean ( talk • contribs) 09:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not an Islamist, but a Muslim nevertheless. From what I understand, if Islamism is defined as an extreme form of Islam, I can fairly say that Islam in general, believes in democracy. There are various quotes from the Quran that emphasizes the importance of knowing other people's opinions, and hence democracy. The Islamism article underlines that Islamism is against democracy. Can someone, who is more knowledgeable than myself, edit the article to reflect that Islamism is not against democracy, and this "Islamism is against democracy" is only a publicity stunt? Ramymamlouk ( talk) 12:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Edits by 193.115.70.9 are messed up in a number of ways.
Islamism (Arabic: al-'islāmiyya) is a term that denotes various political ideologies holding that Islam is not only a religion but also has something to say regarding political systems, is like saying socialism has something to say about how the government should influence the economy. What Muslim doesn't believe Islam has something to say regarding political systems?
There is undue weight given to Graham Fuller. A quote of his was included in the previous version of the lead deleted by the anon, but now there is a big blockquote by him. (Unless I am very much mistaken blockquotes in the lead are a wikipedia no-no.) Fuller is just one many experts on Islamism.
Consequently I am going to revert the lead with a few changes.
Al-Nabhani defines ideology (mabda'a) as “…a rational doctrine from which a system emanates. The ‘aqeedah (doctrine) is a comprehensive idea about man, life and the universe… As for the system that emanates from this doctrine, it is the solutions for man's problems, the method for implementing those solutions, preserving the doctrine and conveying the ideology to others.” These systems manage three relationships, individual (morality), creator (worships) and social (systems of life). Activists like Hasan al-Banna, wrote, 'we believe Islam is an all-embracing concept which regulates every aspect of life, adjudicating on every one of its concerns and prescribing for it a solid and rigorous order.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jk54 ( talk • contribs) 13:20, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
69.149.83.224 has made edits to the Mawdudi section contradicting what was already there - whether Mawdudi was in favor of a Muslim Pakistan state - and adding a long blockquote. The problem is there are no sources given (and he messsed up the blockquote code). So I'm reverting it. - BoogaLouie ( talk) 16:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Jk54 please remember this is an encyclopedia. This is not blog for for disquisition on whatever comes to mind related in some way to the subject. The article is already very long. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 20:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
The inclusion of a definition is not a disquisition but quite necessary - please read the edits before commenting please. Jk54 ( talk) 13:17, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The article should state simply that Islamism is a Western term used to describe fundamentalist Muslims. The bulk of the article is far too long and makes 'Islamism' look like a coherent movement which as it doesn't actually exist is rather ridiculous. A point confirmed by the inclusion of Shia Hezbollah. 78.86.14.169 ( talk) 12:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
This article is based upon a ludicrous disticntion. If anything the article should be merged with the Islam article. There's no such thing as "islamism" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wasabi salafi koonkati ( talk • contribs) 09:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
There are a few POV points I tried to reword in my edit. The External Links also violate WP:EL. There ought not to be web logs and news articles, which don't provide a unique resource beyond the page. They can be cited for content, but it's not EL-like. Also I moved the organization a bit because the history/background should be near the top as its the first chronological step. Just after definition seemed okay, but if you disagree we can move it a bit. The 'history' part seemed right to follow the build up, but it wasn't quite 'history' in that sense. I just changed the title to 'specific' meaning 'specific examples.' That could probably be changed around. Lihaas ( talk) 22:24, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
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I put a tag on the article for a clear POV violation. The grand mosque seizure was called gross. It was not gross. Considering what the islams do to evreyone who is not a islam that was not gross. Plyhmrp ( talk) Plyhmrp
I dont care what islams are called. Its not gross. Period. Plyhmrp ( talk)Plyhmrp
This is a discussion page, you discuss things. Please be civil. I feel that there can be a discussion about the use of "gross", perhaps another qualifier would be more appropriate, or it could simply be reduced to "a violation". IMWeazel ( talk) 22:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Dont tell me what to do. Plyhmrp ( talk)Plyhmrp
I would like to say that the word "islamism" is not correct,because islam is a religion and not an ism.-- arastu ( talk) 10:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
mawdudi section retrimmed to a more original shape with a factual sentence moved from the main mawdudi article corresponding to his involvement in Pakistan movement —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.220.215.13 ( talk) 00:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Please bear in mind this is an encylopedia and not a user group cite for posting people's thoughts on islam, imperialism, the 3rd world, etc. With rambling remarks such as
(No one I know of and nothing in the article accuses Islamists of reacting to overdevelopment.)
Articles sould be about 30K or less and this one is already over 98. Consequently I'm going to trim edits made by lordleopold -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 18:29, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
the article has been deleted and replaced w/something else.... much ... shorter (?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.218.86.48 ( talk) 00:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_Islam links directly to the article about islam. Not sure if this is vandalism or just a bad link. Woods01 ( talk) 01:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)