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On 10 April 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Science in the Islamic Golden Age. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Shouldn't the beginning have citations? Riverblade ( talk) 20:12, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Dear Chiswick Chap,
I agree that it would be ideal if each section would be a concise summary of the main article for each subject, but the problem in this case is that
(1) the current section is a piece of misinformation: the belief that substances comprised mixtures of the four Aristotelian elements in different proportions was shared by all medieval Aristotelian philosophers (which is to say, practically all medieval philosophers; if anything, medieval alchemists often had diverging ideas on the subject, and the first serious challenge to it came from alchemists such as Paracelsus and Jan Baptist van Helmont, whose views on the subject may be traced back to medieval alchemy); the elixir as fifth element is an idea first formulated as such in the 14th century by John of Rupescissa (though it has much older roots); nitric acid and other mineral acids were discovered in the 13th century by anonymous Latin alchemists such as pseudo-Albertus Magnus and pseudo-Geber; all alchemists described laboratory techniques and experimental methods (in the sense of systematic empirical observation and testing as a basis for knowledge; that the experimental method in the sense of controlled experiment would have been developed by medieval alchemists is a common misconception); processes such as sublimation and distillation have a much older history, and the alembic was developed by Greco-Egyptian alchemists. (for references and more information, see some of the articles I linked)
(2) the current section does not in fact summarize our article on alchemy and chemistry in the medieval Islamic world as it stands now. Perhaps some of the misinformation in the current section was at one point also present in that article, but it is not at this moment.
On the other hand, some of the content in the section I propose to add is actually present in the main article (the sulfur-mercury theory metals here, the systematic classification of chemical substances and the chemical synthesis of ammonium chloride here), although of course that article is still in need of much expansion and improvement.
I do believe that the proposed section does summarize some of the most important innovations in medieval Islamic alchemy and chemistry, at least from the perspective of their further development in Western Europe (which is perhaps a bit Eurocentric, but common enough). If you believe it to be too technical, or otherwise not fit in well with the flow and style of the rest of the article, please feel free to copy-edit it. However, it is sourced to expert authors on the subject, and its basic content should be retained.
Sincerely, Apaugasma ( talk| contribs) 20:21, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
This is becasue of there culture they need to learn about the world and god — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.60.125.226 ( talk) 17:57, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) ~ Aseleste ( t, e | c, l) 17:53, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Science in the medieval Islamic world → Science in the Islamic Golden Age – " Medieval Islamic world is less common than Islamic Golden Age and it's even a redirect to the latter. Maudslay II ( talk) 15:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC) -- Maudslay II ( talk) 15:09, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
There is a very fishy source & edit in the article.
{{cite book |last= Jan |first= Abid Ullah |author-link= Abid Ullah Jan |title= After Fascism: Muslims and the Struggle for Self-determination |pages= 123-133 |work= Islam, the West, and the Question of Dominance |publisher= Pragmatic Publishing |location= Ottawa |year= 2006 |isbn= 978-0-9733687-5-8 |url= https://books.google.com/books?id=XRQSvoLKtFYC&pg=PA123 |access-date= 25 April 2021}}</ref>
Islamic sciences currently redirects to this page. Islamic science is a subject which is still studied. It may have been developed in medieval times, but most sciences were developed in historic times. Islamic science also includes discussion on new technologies and new scientific discoveries in relation to Islam. This current page name and the redirect label Islamic science as a thing of the past. When Islamic scholars talk to us about how the internet and social networking is effecting our behaviours and beliefs as Muslims, that is an example of Islamic science applied to new technologies. The page on Physics covers modern physics too, so the page on Islamic sciences be relegated to the past? There are contemporary Islamic discussions on scientific developments which will not be included in this page because of it's page name, for example, 'are the Covid-19 vaccines halal?'. Because of the redirect on 'Islamic sciences' they will also not be included there, nor will the achievements of contemporary Islamic scientists. Amirah talk 11:53, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
The dichotomy in the first paragraph of the 'Significance' section (and repeated in the lead) between a so-called 'traditionalist' view and a 'revisionist' view appears to be based on original research, and does not at all reflect the mainstream view among current historians of science. In reality, the 'traditionalist' view (the 19th-century view that the Islamic world mainly 'preserved' knowledge, but contributed very little or nothing to it) is all but completely abandoned, and should only still be mentioned in the context of a history of the history of science. What is here called the 'revisionist' view (that a Muslim scientific revolution occurred during the Middle Ages), on the other hand, is a tiny minority or even a fringe view, held only by a very small amount of historians such as Ahmad Y. al-Hassan (whose scholarship is of a rather questionable quality; see, e.g., the review by Sonja Brentjes here, or the one by Gabriele Ferrario here).
The actual mainstream view is the one reported by McClellan & Dorn in the third paragraph and by Will Durant and Bernard Lewis in the last sentence of the second paragraph: medieval Islamic science not only preserved but built upon Hellenistic and Indo-Persian achievements, making steady and often important contributions throughout the centuries, but was never marked by a paradigm shift as revolutionary as the one which would later occur in 17th-century Europe.
I propose to remove the first paragraph of the 'Significance' section as both original research and putting undue weight on outdated or fringe views, and to remove the first part of the second paragraph (all except the last sentence) as putting undue weight on minority views. We can just keep the rest, which gives a short but accurate overview, although I would remove the references to Fielding H. Garrison (who lived 1870–1935 and is thus quite out of date) and to Seyyed Hossein Nasr (who belongs to the pro-fringe Traditionalist School).
The last paragraph of the lead can for now simply be replaced by During the Middle Ages, Islamic science flourished across a wide area around the
Mediterranean Sea and further afield, for several centuries, in a wide range of institutions.
Since I suspect this proposal may be controversial, I'm putting it up for discussion on the talk page first. ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 19:19, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
It did not lead to a scientific revolution like that in Early modern Europe, but such external comparisons are probably to be rejected as imposing "chronologically and culturally alien standards" on a successful medieval culture: precisely because comparisons with the scientific revolution of the 17th century are so inapt, it feels jarring to introduce this issue in this way at the very end of the article. But I trust this will be solved by a future rewrite of the section. ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 16:04, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:38, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
There is not really such thing as religious science. It is basically a contradictio in terminis. There are attempts to approach religion in a scientific way, but there is no such thing as a religious approach to science that does not render it unscientific. This article is clearly not NPOV, but islamic propaganda, and it should therefore be deleted in its entirety. (Science done by a religious person, does not make the science religious.) 83.82.219.126 ( talk) 10:25, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Science in the medieval Islamic world article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2 |
Science in the medieval Islamic world has been listed as one of the
History good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: June 5, 2017. ( Reviewed version). |
This
level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 10 April 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Science in the Islamic Golden Age. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Shouldn't the beginning have citations? Riverblade ( talk) 20:12, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Dear Chiswick Chap,
I agree that it would be ideal if each section would be a concise summary of the main article for each subject, but the problem in this case is that
(1) the current section is a piece of misinformation: the belief that substances comprised mixtures of the four Aristotelian elements in different proportions was shared by all medieval Aristotelian philosophers (which is to say, practically all medieval philosophers; if anything, medieval alchemists often had diverging ideas on the subject, and the first serious challenge to it came from alchemists such as Paracelsus and Jan Baptist van Helmont, whose views on the subject may be traced back to medieval alchemy); the elixir as fifth element is an idea first formulated as such in the 14th century by John of Rupescissa (though it has much older roots); nitric acid and other mineral acids were discovered in the 13th century by anonymous Latin alchemists such as pseudo-Albertus Magnus and pseudo-Geber; all alchemists described laboratory techniques and experimental methods (in the sense of systematic empirical observation and testing as a basis for knowledge; that the experimental method in the sense of controlled experiment would have been developed by medieval alchemists is a common misconception); processes such as sublimation and distillation have a much older history, and the alembic was developed by Greco-Egyptian alchemists. (for references and more information, see some of the articles I linked)
(2) the current section does not in fact summarize our article on alchemy and chemistry in the medieval Islamic world as it stands now. Perhaps some of the misinformation in the current section was at one point also present in that article, but it is not at this moment.
On the other hand, some of the content in the section I propose to add is actually present in the main article (the sulfur-mercury theory metals here, the systematic classification of chemical substances and the chemical synthesis of ammonium chloride here), although of course that article is still in need of much expansion and improvement.
I do believe that the proposed section does summarize some of the most important innovations in medieval Islamic alchemy and chemistry, at least from the perspective of their further development in Western Europe (which is perhaps a bit Eurocentric, but common enough). If you believe it to be too technical, or otherwise not fit in well with the flow and style of the rest of the article, please feel free to copy-edit it. However, it is sourced to expert authors on the subject, and its basic content should be retained.
Sincerely, Apaugasma ( talk| contribs) 20:21, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
This is becasue of there culture they need to learn about the world and god — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.60.125.226 ( talk) 17:57, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) ~ Aseleste ( t, e | c, l) 17:53, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Science in the medieval Islamic world → Science in the Islamic Golden Age – " Medieval Islamic world is less common than Islamic Golden Age and it's even a redirect to the latter. Maudslay II ( talk) 15:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC) -- Maudslay II ( talk) 15:09, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
There is a very fishy source & edit in the article.
{{cite book |last= Jan |first= Abid Ullah |author-link= Abid Ullah Jan |title= After Fascism: Muslims and the Struggle for Self-determination |pages= 123-133 |work= Islam, the West, and the Question of Dominance |publisher= Pragmatic Publishing |location= Ottawa |year= 2006 |isbn= 978-0-9733687-5-8 |url= https://books.google.com/books?id=XRQSvoLKtFYC&pg=PA123 |access-date= 25 April 2021}}</ref>
Islamic sciences currently redirects to this page. Islamic science is a subject which is still studied. It may have been developed in medieval times, but most sciences were developed in historic times. Islamic science also includes discussion on new technologies and new scientific discoveries in relation to Islam. This current page name and the redirect label Islamic science as a thing of the past. When Islamic scholars talk to us about how the internet and social networking is effecting our behaviours and beliefs as Muslims, that is an example of Islamic science applied to new technologies. The page on Physics covers modern physics too, so the page on Islamic sciences be relegated to the past? There are contemporary Islamic discussions on scientific developments which will not be included in this page because of it's page name, for example, 'are the Covid-19 vaccines halal?'. Because of the redirect on 'Islamic sciences' they will also not be included there, nor will the achievements of contemporary Islamic scientists. Amirah talk 11:53, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
The dichotomy in the first paragraph of the 'Significance' section (and repeated in the lead) between a so-called 'traditionalist' view and a 'revisionist' view appears to be based on original research, and does not at all reflect the mainstream view among current historians of science. In reality, the 'traditionalist' view (the 19th-century view that the Islamic world mainly 'preserved' knowledge, but contributed very little or nothing to it) is all but completely abandoned, and should only still be mentioned in the context of a history of the history of science. What is here called the 'revisionist' view (that a Muslim scientific revolution occurred during the Middle Ages), on the other hand, is a tiny minority or even a fringe view, held only by a very small amount of historians such as Ahmad Y. al-Hassan (whose scholarship is of a rather questionable quality; see, e.g., the review by Sonja Brentjes here, or the one by Gabriele Ferrario here).
The actual mainstream view is the one reported by McClellan & Dorn in the third paragraph and by Will Durant and Bernard Lewis in the last sentence of the second paragraph: medieval Islamic science not only preserved but built upon Hellenistic and Indo-Persian achievements, making steady and often important contributions throughout the centuries, but was never marked by a paradigm shift as revolutionary as the one which would later occur in 17th-century Europe.
I propose to remove the first paragraph of the 'Significance' section as both original research and putting undue weight on outdated or fringe views, and to remove the first part of the second paragraph (all except the last sentence) as putting undue weight on minority views. We can just keep the rest, which gives a short but accurate overview, although I would remove the references to Fielding H. Garrison (who lived 1870–1935 and is thus quite out of date) and to Seyyed Hossein Nasr (who belongs to the pro-fringe Traditionalist School).
The last paragraph of the lead can for now simply be replaced by During the Middle Ages, Islamic science flourished across a wide area around the
Mediterranean Sea and further afield, for several centuries, in a wide range of institutions.
Since I suspect this proposal may be controversial, I'm putting it up for discussion on the talk page first. ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 19:19, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
It did not lead to a scientific revolution like that in Early modern Europe, but such external comparisons are probably to be rejected as imposing "chronologically and culturally alien standards" on a successful medieval culture: precisely because comparisons with the scientific revolution of the 17th century are so inapt, it feels jarring to introduce this issue in this way at the very end of the article. But I trust this will be solved by a future rewrite of the section. ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 16:04, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:38, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
There is not really such thing as religious science. It is basically a contradictio in terminis. There are attempts to approach religion in a scientific way, but there is no such thing as a religious approach to science that does not render it unscientific. This article is clearly not NPOV, but islamic propaganda, and it should therefore be deleted in its entirety. (Science done by a religious person, does not make the science religious.) 83.82.219.126 ( talk) 10:25, 17 January 2023 (UTC)