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Who wants to recommend sources to cite here from different denominations? as it stands now we're quoting and thus forcing interpretation from a translation of a primary text... which is selective quotation; a policy commonly used in anti-Islamic and Islamic propaganda. gren 22:42, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
.... WHY is there no page for the christian rules of war? Look in the bible, it condones all sorts of wartime attrocities.
Rules, regulations, morals and ethics are enshrined in words not in deeds. More so, with Islam.
yup. as such, I have erased it! Kiumars
I agree with the above comment to some extend, whoever wrote these rules wants to get the Muslims killed in the war!
Imagine you decide to blow up a bus full of military personnel but there is also one civilian on that bus. So you want to be sport and ask the bus driver to stop the bus and let the civilian get off the buss then kick the shit out of the rest. But what if the soldiers on board of the bus try to take advantage of the situation and attack you! Surely you have not gone through all that trouble to be killed so easily! This is a good example where the text books don’t have an answer for.
The enemy is not always sport either, the military base knowing that you will not attack the civilians may decide to share the bus with the nearby school! How would you deal with that trick then? .... um in that case, the military has committed a war crime.
The main idea of guerrilla war is to create panic and unrest behind the enemy lines and weaken their moral! This type of rules only gets you killed like a chicken in the cage!
It is like trying to play a clean football these days when everybody else is cheating and pulling shirts and shorts and pushing you! The result will be 15-0 before the half time!
Cheers, Kiumars
Reply by Alex: You are not practicing a true Islamic principles. Please repent. Islam never asks for its believers to bomb a bus. There so many ways to overcome discrepancies in Islam other than violence. May god bless you.
I have removed the merge because they are different concepts. War is not only Jihad and Jihad is not only war. Part of their spheres intersect but they are not one and the same. gren 03:49, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Kiumars Zeno, I think Gren is right when he says "war is not only jihad", Jihad is holly war (war with non-Muslims and for the sake of saving the religion (more or less like the crusades)), other wars e.g. war between Muslims are not Jihad and and I think taking part in those wars is not mandatory for Muslims (my nuderstanding is that Jihad is not optional, it is mandatory and that is the main difference).
"The term 'jihad' is often rendered in western languages and non-Islamic cultures as 'holy war', but this 'physical' struggle, which encompasses warfare, only makes up part of the broader meaning of the concept of jihad. The denotation is of a struggle, challenge, difficulty, or (frequently) opposed effort, made either in accomplishment or as resistance." -Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia Philolexica 03:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
There are NO sources anywhere in the entire article, except for a handful of few selectively chosen (read POV) quotes from the original sources. The editor must provide sources for this newly created article. Wikipedia is place to do original research and push particular points-of-view. -- Zeno of Elea 09:19, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Seriously -- you have one perspective on what Islam's rules of war say, I have another. What about a 'short summary of key points that we could both agree on? Why not present a draft of what you think this short article should look like on this page, and I'll develop a draft of my own, and we'll find some way to meet in the middle? (Rather than turning this article into yet another tug of war.)
Hopefully, BrandonYusufToropov 13:41, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
If the folks who edit this page (or merge it) want to keep the Q'uran quotes or cite other ones, it might be a good idea to include the original passage (the Arabic) and a contemporary English interpretation (preferably written by a scholar not an ecclesiast). I think in general that's a fair standard for any article that references the Q'uran, since that's the respect that the religion requires. -- Erielhonan 03:23, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Being an expatriat American living in Finland, and coping with a international marriage and bilingual children, I can tell you that although translations may work well between languages that are closely related grammatically and geographically, NO translation between divergent langauges will ever come close to giving the MEANING of a phase or sentence...DEFINITION, perhaps, but meaning, never. If you could read a English translation of the Qur'an that was translated by a 86 year old muslum who lived most of his life isolated from western influences, then somehow managed to learn to read and write English and translated the Qur'an, you might be getting close to understanding the "meaning" of the text....J. from Suomi
Guys Quran is written in a poetic way it is not a straightforward day to day Arabic. My understanding is that even ordinary Arabs have difficulties getting the message easily (because of the poetic nature of the Quran). There are PHD courses in interpreting Quran! Farsi is my mother tong and I have come across a few translation of the Rubaiyat of Khayyam but must tell you they are not even close to the Persian version. I think it will be dangerous to try to use the English translation or a bad Arabic translation of Quran here. The consequences of a mistake can be huge!
The Qur'an uses the term jihad in a military setting only four times ( 9:24, 22:78, 25:52, 60:1), none of which refer definitively to armed struggle. However, the concept of holy Islamic war was not itself a latter day invention, and the Qur'an does contain passages that correlate to specific historic events ... and that may help to illuminate the theory, and practice of armed struggle (qi'tal) for Muslims. A few examples are as follows:
The general count of such totals varies; certain investigators put the count of verses concerning warfare at 164 out of 6346. All pertain to battles fought during Muhammad's mission. [1]
Excerpts from the Q'uran on warfare=islam and warfare not
jihad--
Tznkai
17:52, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
A link has been added explaining all excerpts and many more and refuting the claims of Anti-islamists. [2] Muwahid 19:52, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
And I will keep adding it back in. -unsgined
If he is violation 3RR, its not the first time, take a look at Maria al-Qibtiyya -- Striver 12:09, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
He is in violation of 3RR. I counted over 12 reverts made within 24 hours. He keeps accusing you of being the anon proxies, but the funny thing is that he's using them too. This is ridiculous. We should get an admin on this. Heraclius 22:01, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
both the POV and info on this are off. Recommend reading this for a NPOV article on a similar subject.. I tried to help but it needs a complete rewrite -- Irishpunktom\ talk 14:40, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
Please stop removing sourced sections by William Muir, HE IS NOT AN ISLAMIC APOLOGIST, HE IS WILLIAM MUIR. I have created my account as you asked now please stop deleting them. Malek1 01:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
WILLIAM MUIR IS NOT AN EXTREMELY APOLOGETIC POV. Malek1 02:06, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Its amazing "Leaving aside the fact that the Muslim traditions are full of exagerative biases." I laughed when I read this, considered the extreme attention to accuracy that the Muslim historians devoted. Apparently when something is quoted that this user thinks will portray Islam negatively, he fully supports it and adds it, when not, well the double standard is shown--Mike
I have protected this page to stem the endless, sterile revert war taking place on it. There has been no discussion for 5 days (at least). If you can try hard to carry on a civil discourse here, then, once you have settled your differences, I will unprotect. Try to see which parts of the page are really worth disagreeing long-term over and if you can fix them, or if you can't, if you can simply agree to disagree. - Splash talk 23:44, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
According to the article Qur'an, Islamic scholars assert that only the original Arabic text is considered the actual Qur'an; translations are merely interpretations. For the purposes of Wikipedia, at the very least the source that provided the translation should be cited. There may be considerable variation between translations, and such differences may be important in disputes over original meaning. -- Beland 20:24, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
As a matter of style, it would be nice if supporting quotes immediately followed a claim, instead of being aggregated at the end of the article or section. -- Beland 04:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
So far, there are only two sections - one on civilians (which is very short), and one on POWs. It seems that there are other aspects of war also regulated by Islam. For example, Offensive jihad and Defensive jihad discuss the need for a declaration of war. New sections should be added to cover additional domains of regulation, whatever those might be. Once a canonical list is compiled, that can be added to the intro, to help indicate that the article is comprehensive in that respect. -- Beland 04:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
The article is reinforcing the somewhat ignorant Western idea that Jihad is war. Key points to remember are that Islam is an innately peaceful religion (consider when Mohammed marched into the conquered Mecca, he carried out no retributions on the people who had been for years trying to destroy him), and that Jihad is often taken to mean a personal struggle toward self improvement. One can have a jihad against ice cream, if one feels they eat too much of it, or a jihad to eat more vegetables etc. Lent is a sort of Christian version of Jihad. Holy war can be Jihad, but we should be careful not to equate the two ideas. MrPMonday 07:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Since the "Westerners translate as Holy War" precept is founded exclusively in ignorance and is not part of the Islamic religion whatsoever, I deleted that phrase. Misconceptions should not be included in the encyclopedia, even if certain segments of western society popularly believe it. Amibidhrohi 04:00, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Grenavitar, to a point you're correct. I'd go as far as to say there are entirely different Islams altogether. The Islam followed by moderate Sunnis in Indonesia is a far cry different from the Salafi Islam followed by many arabs. The "Jihad is Holy War" misunderstanding isn't held exclusively by American Christians, but many Muslim groups as well. When Hizb Ut Tahrir speaks of Jihad, they exclusively speak of the armed fighting variety. The information in this entry needs to be founded on fact and research, as well as a fair-minded approach. The apologists, while well-meaning, may end up implying that the idea of Jihad as a offensive war movement is completely an abberation. This isn't true for all sects, as we've seen with the Salafis and some Deobandis. On the other hand, there are Islamophobes here who are also trying to imply that ALL sects of Islam accept this offensive war concept when in fact only a tiny minority do. The vast majority of Muslims believe Jihad is only defensive, and can only be justified when a muslim community is threatened by a domestic or foreign force. Amibidhrohi 05:47, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Although today the phenomenon has become so well-known that for most no translation is necessary, jihad has been "commonly translated" as "holy war" - the wording here takes no stance as to whether this translation is accurate, while the preceding note that jihad means "struggle" makes it clear that this translation is contextual and thus inherently debatable. "Mistranslated" is needlessly POV. If you think this isn't enough, why not add an "although" clause which represents your proposed alternative interpretation, rather than defacing the original true statement? Timothy Usher 05:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
It is not an issue of "translation". The word has several meaning (I speak Arabic) one common meaning is "inner struggle" the "war within one's self" (as in to overcome the evil inside us all) and the other is holy war against the infeddle. There is logic behind it as both are struggles of "holy" against "evil". Zeq 05:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Jihad is a term subject to change as is all of the Quran. This principle is called the "Law of Abrogation." This doctrine allows Muslims to change what the Quran says to suit what they want... originally, the Quran call for Jihad against none Islamists and only in the sense of "holy war." Check this site for facts on the whole issue. [ [3]]
...must be added that these rules of war are seldom followed, atleast in the modern age. A cursory glance at the wars which involved Islamic nations in the recent past reveals that they don't. I could come with specific examples, but that would be pointing fingers. So would it be POV if one added that these "rules of war" is hardly given that much weightage as before given the impracticality of a few of the rules? Idleguy 08:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
"Men, women, and children may all be taken as prisoners of war under traditional interpretations of Islamic law. Generally, a prisoner of war could be (at the discretion of the military leader): freed, enslaved for the purposes of labor, or sold on the slave market. Female prisoners may be enslaved as concubines " It states in the Qu'ran that one should free slave's, the excrept above contradict's this. Im pretty sure that the POW's can only be used for manual labor, set free, or held for ransom, as long as they are treated humane. The part that "Women" prisoner's can be used as 'comcubines' is not only insulting to me, but inaccurate, it states in the 'Muhammud as a warrior' article that you should leave children, women, and the elderly alone. (I dont have any exact quotation's from the Qu'ran, so this "argument" is pretty weak)-- 71.116.65.241 21:01, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
There is currently an ongoing mediation involving the contents of this article. Anyone who has been involved in the recent disputes over this article's contents is requested to attend to help achieve consensus. -- Cyde Weys 02:38, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, its waaay too long,; needs to be summarised. Secondly, there needs to eb some sort of order given to it, which I will do soon. Bless sins 03:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
My edits for NPOV and accuracy have constantly been reverted by Timothy Usher and a couple of other editors such as Karl Meier without so much as an explanation or even a comment here. This behavior is uncalled for and there are such things as "manners" and " etiquette." Furthermore I will no longer engage in senseless edit wars, but I do believe the introduction of other editors here is necessary, particularly those who are able to keep their POV in check. SouthernComfort 08:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, the article is lacking relevant scholarly information regarding this topic. Considering the scope of this subject, balance is key. That a couple of other editors oppose factual and neutral edits is very curious indeed. SouthernComfort 08:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
BTW, "mujahid" means "one who struggles" - "deen" means "religion" or "faith." 2+2 = ? SouthernComfort 08:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
In section on POW, it says:
Other opinions include killing all prisoners (regardless of religion), or all killing all prisoners who are neither Muslim, nor Jewish nor Christian. These opinions are not endorsed by any of the popular school of Islamic jurisprudence.
The above facts are attested to by a number of scholarly sources coming from medieval and modern, Muslim and non-Muslim sources:
However, none of the sources given say this. I think it would be better to remove it unless it can be proved. Ackie00 03:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I've added moder rules of war, as declared by most of the OIC at the Cairo Decaration of Human Rights in Islam. This represents the opinion of the majoirty of Muslim states. I don't know why this is constantly being deleted (by Pecher). Bless sins 20:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
This is a fairly heavy and deep discussion of a religious nature. Aren't all religions open to interpretation and therefore ongoing discussion and enlightenment? Can any one (or 1000) person(s) accurately decipher what the Author of such a work really meant? It's a good article.. I got the gist of it.. to argue any finer of a point might just be splitting hairs. I'm not Muslim but if I chose to be I'm sure I could argue a finer point as well. Does any one happen to know if there may be a Muslim council of such where questions may be posed and discussed and agreed upon.... or is the Koran written in stone? I'm not being facetious or ignorant, I truly do not know much and quest to change that.
In accordance with wikipedia policy I place this disputed content on talk page. I call both parties to file medaition on this issue.
The reason for the dispute is that there is already an article on this subject and it is impossible to accpt that even a group of 45 forign minsters can decide how to interprest Islam. Islam only comes from Quran and the words of the prophet.
Currently, the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights, accepted by the majority of Islamic countries signifies the stance of most Muslims on the treatment of humans in times of war.
Article 2 states:
"(b) It is forbidden to resort to such means as may result in the genocidal annihilation of mankind."
"(d) Safely from bodily harm is a guaranteed right. "
Article 3 states:
"(a) In the event of the use of force and in case of armed conflict, it is not possible to kill non-belligerents such as old men, women and children. The wounded and the sick shall have the right to medical treatment; and prisoners of war shall have the right to be fed, sheltered and clothed. It is prohibited to mutilate dead bodies. It is a duty to exchange prisoners of war and to arrange visits or reunions of the families separated by the circumstances of war."
"(b) It is prohibited to fell trees, to damage crops or livestock, and to destroy the enemy's civilian buildings and installations by shelling, blasting or any other means."
There might be reasonable grounds to oppose mention of the Cairo Declaration (like that almost nobody knows it exists), but your reason isn't amongst them. Islamic law is derived from many sources, including the consensus of religious authorities (ijma), analogy to sunnah or qur'anic teachings (qisas), and the Qur'an and Sunnah directly. ALL of what's in the Cairo declaration comes from one of those sources, even though the document as a whole may not have been drafted by a religious authority. For me to add the scholarly basis for every individual article would constitute original research, so I'm not introducing that into the article. Nothing in the article is derived simply from the personal views of the 'foreign ministers' you speak of. On the matter of genocide, for instance, it's clear Islamic law that women, children and the elderly are not to be killed under any circumstance. Nor are those devoted to monastic service to be harshly treated. The bit on not destroying agricultural property of the enemy is also directly from Hadith.
Amibidhrohi
16:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
you may disgaree with me but that is what the mediation is all about. After the mediation conculdes we will decide (together) what should be added to the page. Or, if we don't reach decision we will scalte this. Wikipedia operates by consensus and dispute resolution mechanisms. What you have done is impose your view. Please remove the disputed content. (or i can do it if you refuse). I hope that you will accept the mediation. Zeq 16:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with mediation. How exactly do I "file" mediation? You say that :"The reason for the dispute is that there is already an article on this subject..."
Response:so what?? Should this section be removed because there is already an article on the subject.
"...and it is impossible to accpt that even a group of 45 forign minsters can decide how to interprest Islam. Islam only comes from Quran and the words of the prophet."
Response:If Islam comes ONLY from Quran and words of Prophet, then pls. remove all the opinions of different scholars and maddhabs. AS long as the opinions of Islamic scholars remain, the Cairo Declaration (which represents the opinions of Islamic States) should also remain.
Also see my last response in
this section.
Bless sins
19:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Also note: the article Islam and anti-Semitism, contains sections such as Islam_and_anti-Semitism#Anti-Semitism_by_extremist_groups. How exactly do Hamas and Al-Qaeda (as mentioned in this section) represent Islam??? Bless sins 19:27, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I've edited the request for mediation to make the issue at hand more clear. Please indicate your acceptance of the mediation here: the agreement of all the parties involved is required for the mediation to proceed. Pecher Talk 19:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Who wants to recommend sources to cite here from different denominations? as it stands now we're quoting and thus forcing interpretation from a translation of a primary text... which is selective quotation; a policy commonly used in anti-Islamic and Islamic propaganda. gren 22:42, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
.... WHY is there no page for the christian rules of war? Look in the bible, it condones all sorts of wartime attrocities.
Rules, regulations, morals and ethics are enshrined in words not in deeds. More so, with Islam.
yup. as such, I have erased it! Kiumars
I agree with the above comment to some extend, whoever wrote these rules wants to get the Muslims killed in the war!
Imagine you decide to blow up a bus full of military personnel but there is also one civilian on that bus. So you want to be sport and ask the bus driver to stop the bus and let the civilian get off the buss then kick the shit out of the rest. But what if the soldiers on board of the bus try to take advantage of the situation and attack you! Surely you have not gone through all that trouble to be killed so easily! This is a good example where the text books don’t have an answer for.
The enemy is not always sport either, the military base knowing that you will not attack the civilians may decide to share the bus with the nearby school! How would you deal with that trick then? .... um in that case, the military has committed a war crime.
The main idea of guerrilla war is to create panic and unrest behind the enemy lines and weaken their moral! This type of rules only gets you killed like a chicken in the cage!
It is like trying to play a clean football these days when everybody else is cheating and pulling shirts and shorts and pushing you! The result will be 15-0 before the half time!
Cheers, Kiumars
Reply by Alex: You are not practicing a true Islamic principles. Please repent. Islam never asks for its believers to bomb a bus. There so many ways to overcome discrepancies in Islam other than violence. May god bless you.
I have removed the merge because they are different concepts. War is not only Jihad and Jihad is not only war. Part of their spheres intersect but they are not one and the same. gren 03:49, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Kiumars Zeno, I think Gren is right when he says "war is not only jihad", Jihad is holly war (war with non-Muslims and for the sake of saving the religion (more or less like the crusades)), other wars e.g. war between Muslims are not Jihad and and I think taking part in those wars is not mandatory for Muslims (my nuderstanding is that Jihad is not optional, it is mandatory and that is the main difference).
"The term 'jihad' is often rendered in western languages and non-Islamic cultures as 'holy war', but this 'physical' struggle, which encompasses warfare, only makes up part of the broader meaning of the concept of jihad. The denotation is of a struggle, challenge, difficulty, or (frequently) opposed effort, made either in accomplishment or as resistance." -Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia Philolexica 03:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
There are NO sources anywhere in the entire article, except for a handful of few selectively chosen (read POV) quotes from the original sources. The editor must provide sources for this newly created article. Wikipedia is place to do original research and push particular points-of-view. -- Zeno of Elea 09:19, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Seriously -- you have one perspective on what Islam's rules of war say, I have another. What about a 'short summary of key points that we could both agree on? Why not present a draft of what you think this short article should look like on this page, and I'll develop a draft of my own, and we'll find some way to meet in the middle? (Rather than turning this article into yet another tug of war.)
Hopefully, BrandonYusufToropov 13:41, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
If the folks who edit this page (or merge it) want to keep the Q'uran quotes or cite other ones, it might be a good idea to include the original passage (the Arabic) and a contemporary English interpretation (preferably written by a scholar not an ecclesiast). I think in general that's a fair standard for any article that references the Q'uran, since that's the respect that the religion requires. -- Erielhonan 03:23, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Being an expatriat American living in Finland, and coping with a international marriage and bilingual children, I can tell you that although translations may work well between languages that are closely related grammatically and geographically, NO translation between divergent langauges will ever come close to giving the MEANING of a phase or sentence...DEFINITION, perhaps, but meaning, never. If you could read a English translation of the Qur'an that was translated by a 86 year old muslum who lived most of his life isolated from western influences, then somehow managed to learn to read and write English and translated the Qur'an, you might be getting close to understanding the "meaning" of the text....J. from Suomi
Guys Quran is written in a poetic way it is not a straightforward day to day Arabic. My understanding is that even ordinary Arabs have difficulties getting the message easily (because of the poetic nature of the Quran). There are PHD courses in interpreting Quran! Farsi is my mother tong and I have come across a few translation of the Rubaiyat of Khayyam but must tell you they are not even close to the Persian version. I think it will be dangerous to try to use the English translation or a bad Arabic translation of Quran here. The consequences of a mistake can be huge!
The Qur'an uses the term jihad in a military setting only four times ( 9:24, 22:78, 25:52, 60:1), none of which refer definitively to armed struggle. However, the concept of holy Islamic war was not itself a latter day invention, and the Qur'an does contain passages that correlate to specific historic events ... and that may help to illuminate the theory, and practice of armed struggle (qi'tal) for Muslims. A few examples are as follows:
The general count of such totals varies; certain investigators put the count of verses concerning warfare at 164 out of 6346. All pertain to battles fought during Muhammad's mission. [1]
Excerpts from the Q'uran on warfare=islam and warfare not
jihad--
Tznkai
17:52, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
A link has been added explaining all excerpts and many more and refuting the claims of Anti-islamists. [2] Muwahid 19:52, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
And I will keep adding it back in. -unsgined
If he is violation 3RR, its not the first time, take a look at Maria al-Qibtiyya -- Striver 12:09, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
He is in violation of 3RR. I counted over 12 reverts made within 24 hours. He keeps accusing you of being the anon proxies, but the funny thing is that he's using them too. This is ridiculous. We should get an admin on this. Heraclius 22:01, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
both the POV and info on this are off. Recommend reading this for a NPOV article on a similar subject.. I tried to help but it needs a complete rewrite -- Irishpunktom\ talk 14:40, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
Please stop removing sourced sections by William Muir, HE IS NOT AN ISLAMIC APOLOGIST, HE IS WILLIAM MUIR. I have created my account as you asked now please stop deleting them. Malek1 01:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
WILLIAM MUIR IS NOT AN EXTREMELY APOLOGETIC POV. Malek1 02:06, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Its amazing "Leaving aside the fact that the Muslim traditions are full of exagerative biases." I laughed when I read this, considered the extreme attention to accuracy that the Muslim historians devoted. Apparently when something is quoted that this user thinks will portray Islam negatively, he fully supports it and adds it, when not, well the double standard is shown--Mike
I have protected this page to stem the endless, sterile revert war taking place on it. There has been no discussion for 5 days (at least). If you can try hard to carry on a civil discourse here, then, once you have settled your differences, I will unprotect. Try to see which parts of the page are really worth disagreeing long-term over and if you can fix them, or if you can't, if you can simply agree to disagree. - Splash talk 23:44, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
According to the article Qur'an, Islamic scholars assert that only the original Arabic text is considered the actual Qur'an; translations are merely interpretations. For the purposes of Wikipedia, at the very least the source that provided the translation should be cited. There may be considerable variation between translations, and such differences may be important in disputes over original meaning. -- Beland 20:24, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
As a matter of style, it would be nice if supporting quotes immediately followed a claim, instead of being aggregated at the end of the article or section. -- Beland 04:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
So far, there are only two sections - one on civilians (which is very short), and one on POWs. It seems that there are other aspects of war also regulated by Islam. For example, Offensive jihad and Defensive jihad discuss the need for a declaration of war. New sections should be added to cover additional domains of regulation, whatever those might be. Once a canonical list is compiled, that can be added to the intro, to help indicate that the article is comprehensive in that respect. -- Beland 04:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
The article is reinforcing the somewhat ignorant Western idea that Jihad is war. Key points to remember are that Islam is an innately peaceful religion (consider when Mohammed marched into the conquered Mecca, he carried out no retributions on the people who had been for years trying to destroy him), and that Jihad is often taken to mean a personal struggle toward self improvement. One can have a jihad against ice cream, if one feels they eat too much of it, or a jihad to eat more vegetables etc. Lent is a sort of Christian version of Jihad. Holy war can be Jihad, but we should be careful not to equate the two ideas. MrPMonday 07:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Since the "Westerners translate as Holy War" precept is founded exclusively in ignorance and is not part of the Islamic religion whatsoever, I deleted that phrase. Misconceptions should not be included in the encyclopedia, even if certain segments of western society popularly believe it. Amibidhrohi 04:00, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Grenavitar, to a point you're correct. I'd go as far as to say there are entirely different Islams altogether. The Islam followed by moderate Sunnis in Indonesia is a far cry different from the Salafi Islam followed by many arabs. The "Jihad is Holy War" misunderstanding isn't held exclusively by American Christians, but many Muslim groups as well. When Hizb Ut Tahrir speaks of Jihad, they exclusively speak of the armed fighting variety. The information in this entry needs to be founded on fact and research, as well as a fair-minded approach. The apologists, while well-meaning, may end up implying that the idea of Jihad as a offensive war movement is completely an abberation. This isn't true for all sects, as we've seen with the Salafis and some Deobandis. On the other hand, there are Islamophobes here who are also trying to imply that ALL sects of Islam accept this offensive war concept when in fact only a tiny minority do. The vast majority of Muslims believe Jihad is only defensive, and can only be justified when a muslim community is threatened by a domestic or foreign force. Amibidhrohi 05:47, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Although today the phenomenon has become so well-known that for most no translation is necessary, jihad has been "commonly translated" as "holy war" - the wording here takes no stance as to whether this translation is accurate, while the preceding note that jihad means "struggle" makes it clear that this translation is contextual and thus inherently debatable. "Mistranslated" is needlessly POV. If you think this isn't enough, why not add an "although" clause which represents your proposed alternative interpretation, rather than defacing the original true statement? Timothy Usher 05:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
It is not an issue of "translation". The word has several meaning (I speak Arabic) one common meaning is "inner struggle" the "war within one's self" (as in to overcome the evil inside us all) and the other is holy war against the infeddle. There is logic behind it as both are struggles of "holy" against "evil". Zeq 05:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Jihad is a term subject to change as is all of the Quran. This principle is called the "Law of Abrogation." This doctrine allows Muslims to change what the Quran says to suit what they want... originally, the Quran call for Jihad against none Islamists and only in the sense of "holy war." Check this site for facts on the whole issue. [ [3]]
...must be added that these rules of war are seldom followed, atleast in the modern age. A cursory glance at the wars which involved Islamic nations in the recent past reveals that they don't. I could come with specific examples, but that would be pointing fingers. So would it be POV if one added that these "rules of war" is hardly given that much weightage as before given the impracticality of a few of the rules? Idleguy 08:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
"Men, women, and children may all be taken as prisoners of war under traditional interpretations of Islamic law. Generally, a prisoner of war could be (at the discretion of the military leader): freed, enslaved for the purposes of labor, or sold on the slave market. Female prisoners may be enslaved as concubines " It states in the Qu'ran that one should free slave's, the excrept above contradict's this. Im pretty sure that the POW's can only be used for manual labor, set free, or held for ransom, as long as they are treated humane. The part that "Women" prisoner's can be used as 'comcubines' is not only insulting to me, but inaccurate, it states in the 'Muhammud as a warrior' article that you should leave children, women, and the elderly alone. (I dont have any exact quotation's from the Qu'ran, so this "argument" is pretty weak)-- 71.116.65.241 21:01, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
There is currently an ongoing mediation involving the contents of this article. Anyone who has been involved in the recent disputes over this article's contents is requested to attend to help achieve consensus. -- Cyde Weys 02:38, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, its waaay too long,; needs to be summarised. Secondly, there needs to eb some sort of order given to it, which I will do soon. Bless sins 03:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
My edits for NPOV and accuracy have constantly been reverted by Timothy Usher and a couple of other editors such as Karl Meier without so much as an explanation or even a comment here. This behavior is uncalled for and there are such things as "manners" and " etiquette." Furthermore I will no longer engage in senseless edit wars, but I do believe the introduction of other editors here is necessary, particularly those who are able to keep their POV in check. SouthernComfort 08:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, the article is lacking relevant scholarly information regarding this topic. Considering the scope of this subject, balance is key. That a couple of other editors oppose factual and neutral edits is very curious indeed. SouthernComfort 08:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
BTW, "mujahid" means "one who struggles" - "deen" means "religion" or "faith." 2+2 = ? SouthernComfort 08:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
In section on POW, it says:
Other opinions include killing all prisoners (regardless of religion), or all killing all prisoners who are neither Muslim, nor Jewish nor Christian. These opinions are not endorsed by any of the popular school of Islamic jurisprudence.
The above facts are attested to by a number of scholarly sources coming from medieval and modern, Muslim and non-Muslim sources:
However, none of the sources given say this. I think it would be better to remove it unless it can be proved. Ackie00 03:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I've added moder rules of war, as declared by most of the OIC at the Cairo Decaration of Human Rights in Islam. This represents the opinion of the majoirty of Muslim states. I don't know why this is constantly being deleted (by Pecher). Bless sins 20:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
This is a fairly heavy and deep discussion of a religious nature. Aren't all religions open to interpretation and therefore ongoing discussion and enlightenment? Can any one (or 1000) person(s) accurately decipher what the Author of such a work really meant? It's a good article.. I got the gist of it.. to argue any finer of a point might just be splitting hairs. I'm not Muslim but if I chose to be I'm sure I could argue a finer point as well. Does any one happen to know if there may be a Muslim council of such where questions may be posed and discussed and agreed upon.... or is the Koran written in stone? I'm not being facetious or ignorant, I truly do not know much and quest to change that.
In accordance with wikipedia policy I place this disputed content on talk page. I call both parties to file medaition on this issue.
The reason for the dispute is that there is already an article on this subject and it is impossible to accpt that even a group of 45 forign minsters can decide how to interprest Islam. Islam only comes from Quran and the words of the prophet.
Currently, the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights, accepted by the majority of Islamic countries signifies the stance of most Muslims on the treatment of humans in times of war.
Article 2 states:
"(b) It is forbidden to resort to such means as may result in the genocidal annihilation of mankind."
"(d) Safely from bodily harm is a guaranteed right. "
Article 3 states:
"(a) In the event of the use of force and in case of armed conflict, it is not possible to kill non-belligerents such as old men, women and children. The wounded and the sick shall have the right to medical treatment; and prisoners of war shall have the right to be fed, sheltered and clothed. It is prohibited to mutilate dead bodies. It is a duty to exchange prisoners of war and to arrange visits or reunions of the families separated by the circumstances of war."
"(b) It is prohibited to fell trees, to damage crops or livestock, and to destroy the enemy's civilian buildings and installations by shelling, blasting or any other means."
There might be reasonable grounds to oppose mention of the Cairo Declaration (like that almost nobody knows it exists), but your reason isn't amongst them. Islamic law is derived from many sources, including the consensus of religious authorities (ijma), analogy to sunnah or qur'anic teachings (qisas), and the Qur'an and Sunnah directly. ALL of what's in the Cairo declaration comes from one of those sources, even though the document as a whole may not have been drafted by a religious authority. For me to add the scholarly basis for every individual article would constitute original research, so I'm not introducing that into the article. Nothing in the article is derived simply from the personal views of the 'foreign ministers' you speak of. On the matter of genocide, for instance, it's clear Islamic law that women, children and the elderly are not to be killed under any circumstance. Nor are those devoted to monastic service to be harshly treated. The bit on not destroying agricultural property of the enemy is also directly from Hadith.
Amibidhrohi
16:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
you may disgaree with me but that is what the mediation is all about. After the mediation conculdes we will decide (together) what should be added to the page. Or, if we don't reach decision we will scalte this. Wikipedia operates by consensus and dispute resolution mechanisms. What you have done is impose your view. Please remove the disputed content. (or i can do it if you refuse). I hope that you will accept the mediation. Zeq 16:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with mediation. How exactly do I "file" mediation? You say that :"The reason for the dispute is that there is already an article on this subject..."
Response:so what?? Should this section be removed because there is already an article on the subject.
"...and it is impossible to accpt that even a group of 45 forign minsters can decide how to interprest Islam. Islam only comes from Quran and the words of the prophet."
Response:If Islam comes ONLY from Quran and words of Prophet, then pls. remove all the opinions of different scholars and maddhabs. AS long as the opinions of Islamic scholars remain, the Cairo Declaration (which represents the opinions of Islamic States) should also remain.
Also see my last response in
this section.
Bless sins
19:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Also note: the article Islam and anti-Semitism, contains sections such as Islam_and_anti-Semitism#Anti-Semitism_by_extremist_groups. How exactly do Hamas and Al-Qaeda (as mentioned in this section) represent Islam??? Bless sins 19:27, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I've edited the request for mediation to make the issue at hand more clear. Please indicate your acceptance of the mediation here: the agreement of all the parties involved is required for the mediation to proceed. Pecher Talk 19:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)