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This article is full of original research that comes from an anti-islamic POV, especially this line "Islamic fascism is a combination of Islamic fundamentalism or Islamism and fascism." This is uncited and seems to have been made up by the creator in an effort to give definition to an obscure term. Yuber 06:43, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well I'm certainly not anti-Islamic.
As for original research, I have put up some of the links I will be referring to. But the main point is that I have barely started it.
As for the "POV" which means point of view, I don't think it has an anti-Islamic view at all, nor even an anti Islamic fascist point of view. Just like fascists themselves, this is a small, very small group within Islam and the article says that. It makes no judgements and nor should it.
I don't get how you can or would want to propose the deletion of an article and question its neutrality so early and without contributing anything positive and without discussing with me first. Is this how Wikipedia works? Walkingeagles 07:42, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Walkingeagles, I think that the mentioning of the CNN article needs a reference (link to the article in CNN). Otherwise, the information would be removed. Svest 08:28, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
Header says it all. What makes these manifestations of fascism specifically Islamic, as opposed to ordinary fascism? Can anyone explain this in 100 words or less, preferably in the article's introduction? — Charles P. (Mirv) 15:32, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
For those of us learned in Middle Eastern history, it is clear that fascist-derived ideologies and Islamism have always been violently opposed (see: Hama Massacre). The fascist-derived ideologies in the Middle East such as the Kateab Party, the Baath party, and the Syrian Social Nationalist Party have been almost entirely supported by Christians or minority groups in the Arab world that feared Islamism. The founder of the SSNP was a Christian, as the founder of the Baath was Greek orthodox. The Kataeb was founded by Bachir Gemayel, a Maronite Christian militant. All these ideologies were officially secular but had mainly Christian support. Islamic fascism is a contradiction in all senses of the word. Islamism has no ideas about racial superiority either. That is why it is utterly ridiculous to have an Islamic fascism article.
My views on this article are that it is a way for WalkingEagles and Klonimus to insert their own judgement into an Anti-Islamic term that should frankly be listed under political epithets. Just because neo-cons have started using this term more does not make it factually or historically correct. I urge WalkingEagles and Klonimus to debate me here about the history of their supposed "Islamic fascism", I'm sure their extensive knowledge on Middle Eastern history and Fascism will help them. Yuber 16:20, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
With your permission I'd love to include your thoughts on this in the article. I didn't really understand what your problem with the article was but I do now. Hopefully that will address the concerns people have.
I am sad you think I am anti-Muslim because that is simply not true and is simply not reflected in anything I've done, said or written. Like most Americans probably I am concerned about the threat of al Qaeda but am opposed to the seeming intolerance of Christian fundamentalism of Islamic fundamentalism equally. There seems to be many people keen to scream (virtually!) at each other over this topic, so I probably should have started elsewhere on Wikipedia like Lego or something. Although perhaps there are also such problems in Legoland. Anyway, I'm still learning so I hope you cut me some slack as the article evolves and contribute anything you can. I really appreciate you explaining you views in detail, I am obviously still learning and maybe others are too if they haven't closed their minds to new data. Walkingeagles 16:33, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've removed this again. First, its caption is extremely debatable (the identification of various Islamic groups as 'fascist' hasn't been justified). Secondly, it's not doing anything important in the article; its only purpose seems to be to turn the reader's stomach — presumably in order to stir her emotions against supposedly evil Muslims. Thirdly, have you considered the feelings of the friends or family of the victim, should they come across this? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 16:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I believe it is an important image, it is clearly associated with al Qaeda which the article identifies as an Islamic fascist group. I agree the image is unpleasant but it is factual and relevant. It has been a very widely distributed image as Google shows and even the video was widely distributed by those responsible for killing him. I have NEVER ever said that Muslims are evil or anything similarly racist. So I really ask that you stop making false assumptions about me and show me the respect and courtesy I show you. Walkingeagles 16:45, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I note Yuber persists in deleting the image which is probably the most powerful visual image we have of the tactics of Islamic fascism. Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for the beheading, the article identifies al Qaeda as an Islamic fascist group so I can't imagine a more appropriate (although admittedly unpleasant) image. Walkingeagles 23:43, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How is the image relevant to Islamic fascism? What evidence of fascism do you see in beheading someone? Yuber 23:56, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hey folks, sorry if this is not exactly in the right place but... Its all well and good to say that Islama(o)facism "does not exist", or similar. However, it is a new term entering the lexicon whether one likes it or not. It means different things to different people and at this point that interpretation is in a state of flux, so trying to submit an authoritive reference at this juncture is putting the cart before the horse, and frankly a little bit self-important (in the mildest and most friendly use of the word)
For example: To me it represents a theocratic totalitarian ideology that substitutes a twisted fanatic interpretation of Islam for fanatic nationalism/racism. And there is a component that in my view includes a zealous hegemonic "Jihad" to export that ideology at any cost. A "Greater Islamic Reich", if you will permit the allusion.
What about the Fascist/Corporatism component? Splitting hairs, don't really care. And it sure ain't Marxist/Leninist. (Who was it, Claire Booth Luce or Ayn Rand maybe that said communism and fascism were the same thing? Or something to that effect.)
Now... will that satisfy some poli-sci post graduate? Probably not. Undoubtedly it means other things to other people, or its like pornography, you can't quite define it, but you know it when you see it. The Taliban, Al Queda and the current government of Iran fit the bill in my view.
IF someone wants to take a stab at posting a definition and discussion of the nature of Islamafacism, I humbly recommend keeping it simple. Don't try to over intellectuallize it.
I've removed this from the article:
You say they're terrorists, I say they're freedom fighters. And I want to instill the same jihadic feeling in our peoples' heart, in the Aryan race, that they have for their father, who they call Allah. I don't believe that they were the ones that attacked us," Kreis said. "And even if they did, even if you say they did, I don't care!
Three years ago, I met a Swiss Islamic convert named Ahmed Huber, who began his life as a devotee of Adolf Hitler and moved on to praising former Iranian leader Ayatollah Khomeini, who led that nation's Islamic revolution and vigorously opposed U.S. policies.
Huber wanted to forge a fresh alliance between Islamic radicals and neo-Nazis in Europe and the United States. And he cannot be simply dismissed as a crackpot: Huber served on the board of directors of a Swiss bank and holding company that President Bush accused of helping fund al Qaeda.
It's clearly not appropriate. The main text isn't about what Islamic people or groups think, but about what white supremacists say about them; the only relevant part is wholly in the form of a quotation, and concerns one person who's claimed to be a Muslim and a fascist.
I've also removed a couple of other unsubstantiated claims, reorganised the text to flow more smoothly, and corrected a number of internal links. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:58, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The vfd discussion gained no consensus on 08:30, 9 May 2005 (UTC): Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Islamic fascism
I am wondering if this is a no consensus:
Cheers and respect from Svest 08:47, May 9, 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up
Unfortunately, "merge" and "redirect" are counted as "keep" votes. It's not obvious, and I think that people should be informed of this more clearly, but there you are. In this case, the votes are exactly balanced, even though only four out of eighteen people voted to keep. It's not clear whether the admin who closed the VfD merely counted votes (which is against policy) or actually looked at what people said (which is policy), because no explanation was given, but we have to assume good faith. A bad result, though, as the majority of those involved will agree. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:22, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes — looking at what I said I can see that it might have sounded like an insinuation of bad faith, but it wasn't meant to. I'm sure that you didn't merely count votes. My suspicion is that many of those voting "merge" or "redirect" would have voted "delete" if they'd realised that they'd be counted as voting "keep" (I often forget myself). Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:53, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
The Islamofascism article is almost empty of any content now. Probably that article should redirect here now. 66.94.94.154 12:44, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Redirected from pigfly.
Pigs in flight is a phenomenon cited by Christopher Hitchens. It is therefore a valid topic for an article in WP.
Hitchens was recently quoted in the Oceania Times as acknowleding that neither "pigs" nor "flight," in their technical "you, know, old-style-dictionary meanings," accurately described the phenomenon he had in mind, but insisted that "there is this thing, and I wasn't sure what to call it, and I realized I kind of liked calling it pigs in flight."
According to Hitchens, pigs in flight refers to the practice of drunken men throwing dwarves as tavern entertainment. "The activity itself has certainly become one of our cultural reference points," he insisted in a recent interview, "and the plain fact is that since I started using the term pigs in flight to describe dwarf-tossing, other people have laughed a couple of times, clearly an indication of wide acceptance of the term."
Opponents of the term pigs in flight (or its associated epithet pigfly) apparently are hung up on words actually carrying discernable meanings, though this approach has been designated as thoughtcrime in certain sections of Oceania. Some even claim the terms in question are offensive, but those individuals are under investigation.
An anonymous fan of Hitchens offered this response from the blogosphere: "Look, Hitchens said it. And he didn't just, like, say it. He said it more than once. That's what people aren't considering in their brains. And you know what? He also wrote about it. Hitchens did, I mean, with like a computer and everything. Again, he did this more than once. Plus a pig is a mammal. Are you saying a dwarf isn't a mammal? And plus, like, when you fly, you leave the ground, right? Are you saying someone who throws a dwarf doesn't make that dwarf leave the ground? Christopher Hitchens says that's flying, so that's what it is."
That the term is regarded by certain Muslims and other unpersons as not only offensive and inaccurate, but self-contradictory, is a point with which we need not concern ourselves here.
History had already been rewritten, but fragments of the literature of the past survived here and there, imperfectly censored, and so long as one retained one's knowledge of Oldspeak it was possible to read them. In the future such fragments, even if they chanced to survive, would be unintelligible and untranslatable. It was impossible to translate any passage of Oldspeak into Newspeak unless it either referred to some technical process or some very simple everyday action, or was already orthodox(goodthinkful would be the Newspeak expression) in tendency. -- George Orwell, The Principles of Newspeak
You mix a lot of different arguments into this, the two primary ones being:
1) There is a consensus here, both versions survived VfD: The article(s) should exist. 2) AFAIK there is no current factual distpue on the current content of either. In fact the Islamic Fascism article makes most of the points you're complaining about: ie. it's a neocon neologisim that has nothing to do with 1930s Italian politics or the ideologies that derived from them. 3) You have a point about prior versions of the article but I do not believe it applies to the current form. Arguing against the article based on past bias or potential future bias is a good way to shut down the whole wikipedia. Saswann 15:48, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, that is a lot of material to cram into the first sentance of an article. And I might note that the article ( Islamic fascism) does make the latter two points. The first one is properly part of Fascism. I think (trying to believe the best of everyone) shouting down is due more to the fact that it is very hard to make a NPOV edit on something you are passionate about. Also, while your last point may be well-meaning, it will never work in an encyclopeda that documents real-world usage; (see Talk:anarcho-capitalism) Saswann 16:24, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
So, if I gather correctly, your issue boils down to the fact that the point that this is used solely as a epithet, and that point is not made strongly enough in the lead paragraph? Saswann 17:29, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I have a suggestion - if it's an epithet, why not suggest the proper and acceptable terminology? I note that that hasn't been done in the article itself. And I have no suggestion on an alternate acceptable term - that's how I got to this page in the first place. Netdance 04:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I have created an overview page Neofascism_and_religion and am proposing that this page be redirected to this larger and more detailed article. -- Cberlet 14:48, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I agree. BrandonYusufToropov 15:05, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Disagree: I might point out that by re-directing to an article called Neofascism_and_religion you are implicitly making the case for what seems to be the primariy objection to this article, i.e. you imply that what the American neocons refer to as Islamic fascism is actually a Fascist/ Neofascist political movement. It will also make it less clear about the usage of the term and its issues since any disclaimers, most importantly the fact that it is a derogitory epithet and not some global political movement, have to be buried within the body of a huge article-- which people searching for Islamic fascism/ Islamofascist may not bother to read all the way through. IMHO, it is much more sensible having a short pithy article stating; "This is a slur, this is where it came from, this is how it is used." Saswann 16:08, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
The argument is about content. You cannot change the issues over existing content simply by surrounding it with more content-- That might address sins of omission, and context, but is seems to me that these aren't the primary issues. Saswann 18:10, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Extreme Disagree This has been gone over multiple times. Islamofascism was the target of an apparently successful defacement campaign following a failed Vote for Deletion, and appears now slated by less-than-unanimous consent (given Mel Etitis' misrepresentation of at least one user's comments) to be merged into Islamic Fascism. To then merge Islamic Fascism away is beyond ridiculous. It goes against the objection of the editor Mel Etitis misrepresented as well, which was that the merge was fine provided the content of Islamic Fascism was not then defaced. There are also the objections of Klonimus at the talk page for Islamofascism to consider]]. Enviroknot 21:33, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have a clue how to make the redirects work properly? I presume we need to archive the pages first? Three pages are in play Islamic fascism, Islamofascism, and Christian fascism. Plus, one page is protected.-- Cberlet 13:46, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be some overlap between this page and Islamofascism. My suggestion is that Islamofascism is redirected to this page and maybe given its own section here.
I also think there is too much information above the contents box - this area should be for a minor descriptor of the page's focus and the rest should be put below. Infact a lot of what is mentioned above the box is indeed mentioned below.
I think there are far too many examples of use in public discourse and all of these are regarding islamofascism and in this respect they mirror the page Islamofascism. Steve-g 09:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC) everbody knows what is happening in abughraib prisons in the way of bible(as bush said every night he talked with god and god had given him an mission) and torah lover man.so interesting also these islamofacists are standing on patrol sea.nobody in here is telling the truth about this term which is first used by an evangelic president whose teachers are jews.very interesting.hf
I don't think that
Islamofascism should be redirected to Islamic fascism, since I think that this article is dubious and inflammatory, and Islamofascism is a particularly significant neologism with a great deal of current resonance. I would merge the other way after this article has undergone substantial editing, possibly, but certainly not merge anything into this article.
Richardjames444
18:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
A small number of groups? (line 1) That sounds incredibly wrong. - Anon 8/14/06
A LewRockwell.com article about this insult, calling it a Big Lie [2] -- Striver 10:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
OK folks. Back to Wikipedia policy. This page is a redirect. Add material to Neofascism and religion#Islam or Islamofascism or any of the several other appropriate pages. This page was redirected after a lengthy and contentious debate. Don't stir up tropuble and insert POV material here. Add material to other pages and seek to build consensus with other editors. Thanks.-- Cberlet 02:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
This page and several others were the subject of lengthy and heated debates, numerous attempts to delete the pages, POV wars, numerous attempts to rename the pages, etc. These discussions are therefore on a number of pages going back over a year. Most recently there has been a discussion on Islamofascism, although even that page has had several names. Almost all of the text on the Islamic Fascism page that was recently revived already had been moved to either Islamofascism or Neofascism and religion. The very outdated and redundant page was simply switched back on by deleting the redirect. Therefore almost the entire page was redundant. There was no serious attempt to engage editors in a discussion on either Islamofascism or Neofascism and religion. There was no substantative discussion over several weeks--I waited to see if there was a serious dicussion. There was not. POV page forks are a violation of Wiki policy. Any editor can do what I did. I have no intention of trying to suppress claims about Islam and fascism, and in fact have written scholarly articles where I argue some forms of militant Islam are indeed forms of theocratic or clerical fascism. At the same time, I was just quoted in Newsweek saying that the term "Islamofascism" creeps me out. Over time, the two pages Islamofascism (on the term) and Neofascism and religion (on the contemporary debate), along with a few pages that mention the Grand Mufti and the Phalangists, have been the best way to keep this topic from turning, once again, into an endless POV war.-- Cberlet 18:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
As I mentioned above, there had been some practical problems with having only Islamofascism and Neofascism and religion (or Neofascism and religion#Islam). Some people apparently use the terms "Islamofascism" and "Islamic Fascism" interchangeably. Most notably President Bush. Some Wikipedians found it inappropriate to have quotes containing "Islamic Fascism" on the Islamofascism page. There is no proof (except maybe some original research) that president Bush intended neofascism when he said "fascism". -- Francis Schonken 07:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, you don't address the practical problem I mentioned above. Regarding the proposed merger, both "merge" templates (that is the mergeto template at Islamofascism, and the mergefrom template at Islamic fascism) point to the *same* discussion page. So that solves that automatically. -- Francis Schonken 08:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I oppose to doing this by vote. I'd rather like to see issues (like the Practical problems mentioned above) addressed. Unless that is done, a vote is void of actual meaning. -- Francis Schonken 06:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Oppose merger-- Cberlet 19:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Oppose -- The Islamofascism term has a significant enough history to warrant its own article. ( → Netscott) 15:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Comment: Francis, since I gather this is your proposal to merge rather than merely redirect, can you summarize what material is here that you feel merits merging? - Jmabel | Talk 06:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Heres what hasnt been moved to either the neofascism page or the islamofascism page:
INTRO
islamic fascism is a term adopted by journalists including Stephen Schwartz [2] and Christopher Hitchens intended to refer to Islamist extremists, including terrorist groups such as al Qaeda. The term has gained wide currency in the United States, particularly among neo-conservatives. The term is a pejorative coined by critics of militant Islamist groups - there are no self-identified Islamic fascists. The most recent appellation by President Bush describing assorted cells of British Muslims of Pakistani origin in England.
Fascism is a particular kind of authoritarian political movement adopted in Italy during the 1930s. On the European axis of left and right wing politics fascism is understood to be an expression of extreme Right-wing politics. Modern usage has tended to extend the definition of the term to refer to any totalitarian worldview regardless of political ideology (see: Fascist (epithet)). In the case of "Islamic fascism" this refers to political movements that either call for, or are believed by their opponents to call for, some authoritarian imposition of Islamic law. This explains how critics associate the term with groups of Islamic fundamentalists like the Taliban which governed Afghanistan, al Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah.
Robert S. Wistrich has described Islamic fascism as adopting a totalitarian mind-set, a hatred of the West, fanatical extremism, repression of women, loathing of Jews, a firm belief in conspiracy theories, and dreams of global hegemony.[3]
Many dispute the accuracy of the term Islamic "fascism." They point to the fact that political ideologies actually derived from fascism have been violently opposed to Islamism.[citation needed]
On the other hand, Daniel Pipes equates only militant Islamism to fascism. Thus Pipes and most others critics say they refer to a small number of Islamist zealots, including terrorist groups such as al Qaeda.
The use of the term "Islamofascism" is contentious and discussed on the page Islamofascism. For pre-1945 events, see Fascism: Overtures to Muslims and Arab countries.
APPLICATION Islamists do not advocate corporatism, an important component of "classic" fascist governments in Italy and Germany. However, the Islamist idea of Ummah has been compared to the German fascist idea of Volksgemeinschaft. [2]
Historian of fascism, Roger Eatwell, notes that the debate can be traced back to fascism's heyday: "Some made this equation – though in the reverse direction - back in the 1930s. For instance, Carl Jung said of Adolf Hitler in 1939: 'he is like Mohammed. The emotion in Germany is Islamic, warlike and Islamic. They are all drunk with a wild god.'." [7]
Origins and usage Christopher Hitchens used the term "Islamic fascism" or "theocratic fascism" to describe the fatwa declared on February 14, 1989 by Ayatollah Khomeini against Salman Rushdie over The Satanic Verses, an event that was pivotal in shaping the attitude toward Islamism of Hitchens and several other prominent journalists on the left.[9] Hitchens also used the term "fascism with an Islamic face" in The Nation[10] after the 9/11 attacks, when the phrase spread to the blogosphere, shortened to "Islamofascism." For Hitchens and ex-Marxist Julie Burchill, who also uses these terms, there is a resonance with phrases like clerical fascism used by Marxists.
The scholar Walter Laqueur has also described Islamism as a new form of clerical fascism.[11]
On October 6, 2005 President George W Bush used the term Islamofascism in a speech to the National Endowment for Democracy.[12]
The entire Examples of use in public discourse
Mrdthree 05:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
plus now:
In late 2005, President George W. Bush and other high U.S. government officials began to refer to the idea of "Islamo-fascism" or (slightly later) "Islamic fascism", and suggested that opposing militant Islamic terrorism was similar to opposing the Nazis during World War II. [3]
[4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] This created storm of controversy as supporters and opponents debated these contentions. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
Moved from Neofascism and religion while none of the Bush references show the use of "neo"-anything, so doesn't belong in "neofascism and religion" article: moving para to Islamic fascism article.
Anyway, seems there is no "POV fork pushed by one editor". -- Francis Schonken 07:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Further, if you contend the controversy has ended, that can only mean you fully agree with what I wrote on your talk page some days ago [12] (on which point I haven't seen convincing arguments that would make me change my mind):
Re. "consensus on other pages": at talk:Islamofascism consensus was established regarding "[...] starting an article (using content from there and elsewhere) entitled Islamic fascism [...]". I quoted this prior talk yesterday in Talk:Islamofascism#Merger Discussion (from several sections higher on that page). I've seen no convincing arguments to change that consensus. I haven't seen such discussions here on this talk page, nor on any other talk page. -- Francis Schonken 07:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Content of the Islamic fascism page proposed by SlimVirgin ( [13] - [14] - [15]):
{{ dab}}
I object to this because of the simple rules of Wikipedia:Disambiguation:"[...] disambiguations are paths leading to different topic pages that share essentially the same term in their title." (my bolding)
Basicly (for a concrete example), when a user reads or hears "Islamic fascism"/"Islamic fascist" in a communication of pres. Bush, and s/he types such expression in the Wikipedia search field, and presses "Go", this user is left with a choice, that s/he can't resolve without knowing in advance what is on the so-called "disambiguated" pages. This is not how disambiguation is supposed to work.
Further, after reading these so-called "disambiguated" pages it becomes all too apparent that there is POV forking involved: one of the pages suggests that "Islamofascism" and "Islamic fascism" are not synonyms. If that user happens to have taken the other choice from the so-called disambiguation page, s/he'll learn that Bush uses these terms interchangeably. Sorry, as it is now, this is a most elementary example of POV forking. -- Francis Schonken 07:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, didn't see an argument w.r.t. the mentioned problems. -- Francis Schonken 07:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The compromise consensus among those discussing this matter was to make it a disambiguation page. The majority opposed the merger. Please, Francis Schonken, stop reverting this decision and join with other editors on the other pages where this matter is being discussed.-- Cberlet 15:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it would maybe be possible to resolve the POV issues by turning the Islamic fascism page into a Wikipedia:Summary style article, with two main sections:
On the (very important!) condition that content which is currently only on the Islamic fascism page (see overview of that content above in #INVENTORY) is properly merged out. I'm not saying that "necessarily" all the content summed up in that #INVENTORY section above needs to be preserved, I'm only talking about "properly merging out" that part of that content about which we can agree that it satisfies the core content policies.
As far as I'm concerned a "summary style" format with three sections ("pre 1945", "1945 till end of 20th century", "from end of 20th century") could be considered too, but I fear the 2nd of these proposed sections would maybe be a bit empty. The so-called "genealogies" trying to connect an Islamic thread from pre-1945 fascism to the early 21st century revival of such verbiage seems extremely scant, not supported by reliable sources, and basicly 21st century "re-construction" of an history that never happened (in the 2nd half of the 20th century islamic/arab extremism and terrorism was rather connected with anti-fascist extreme left movements like -in the case of terrorism- Rote Armee Fraction, as far as I know).
Who thinks a 2-section (or possibly 3-section) summary style article as described above a good idea? -- Francis Schonken 09:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I understand that you are unhappy that the merger was not approved. If you want to join the ongoing discussions at Islamofascism and Neofascism and religion that would be constructive.-- Cberlet 22:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
"Islamic facism" should be changed to "Islamic fascism" in the title. Peter O. ( Talk) 21:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I've made the page a redirect to Islamofascism. It seems absurb to have two pages with such similar names. " Neofascism and religion Section on Islam" is just more of the same type of material as at Islamofascism, so there no reason anyone would want to go there in preference to Islamofascism. I say just take the reader directly to the material. Kauffner 11:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Reverted. Do not do this again. Your opinion should be shared on one of the existing content pages and a consensus reached. We have been through this repeatedly. This page was just unprotected to prevent just this type of POV and disruptive edit.-- Cberlet 13:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I must agree with Kauffner that there seems to be no reason at all why this page should be a disambiguation per WP:DAB. Neo-fascism and religion is clearly a super-topic of "Islamic fascism" with a much wider scope. Anything other than a redirect to Islamofascism is a violation of the "principle of least surprise" -- and this statement has nothing to do with any opinion on the topic as such. dab (𒁳) 22:47, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
<---There are lots of reasons why this page exists, and it is entirely appropriate to ask that you discuss this at Islamofascism or Neofascism and religion which are the pages monitored by other editors who helped work out this compromise. Please edit collaboratively, and avoid personal attacks.-- Cberlet 23:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
the only reason for a disambiguation page is "to allow users to choose among several Wikipedia articles, usually when a user searches for an ambiguous term." Nobody typing "Islamic fascism" can be reasonably expected to look for the fascism or the fascism and religion article. The proper redirect traget is Islamofascism. If there is something wrong with that article, you should fix it there instead of obstructing redirection to it. If "Islamofascism" is a problematic term, {{ move}} the article to Islam and fascism, Fascism in Islam or similar, I don't care. The entire point is one of Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages), which for some reason or other you don't seem to want to implement here, for reasons best known to yourself. dab (𒁳) 23:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 24 April 2005. The result of the discussion was keep. |
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This article is full of original research that comes from an anti-islamic POV, especially this line "Islamic fascism is a combination of Islamic fundamentalism or Islamism and fascism." This is uncited and seems to have been made up by the creator in an effort to give definition to an obscure term. Yuber 06:43, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well I'm certainly not anti-Islamic.
As for original research, I have put up some of the links I will be referring to. But the main point is that I have barely started it.
As for the "POV" which means point of view, I don't think it has an anti-Islamic view at all, nor even an anti Islamic fascist point of view. Just like fascists themselves, this is a small, very small group within Islam and the article says that. It makes no judgements and nor should it.
I don't get how you can or would want to propose the deletion of an article and question its neutrality so early and without contributing anything positive and without discussing with me first. Is this how Wikipedia works? Walkingeagles 07:42, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Walkingeagles, I think that the mentioning of the CNN article needs a reference (link to the article in CNN). Otherwise, the information would be removed. Svest 08:28, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
Header says it all. What makes these manifestations of fascism specifically Islamic, as opposed to ordinary fascism? Can anyone explain this in 100 words or less, preferably in the article's introduction? — Charles P. (Mirv) 15:32, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
For those of us learned in Middle Eastern history, it is clear that fascist-derived ideologies and Islamism have always been violently opposed (see: Hama Massacre). The fascist-derived ideologies in the Middle East such as the Kateab Party, the Baath party, and the Syrian Social Nationalist Party have been almost entirely supported by Christians or minority groups in the Arab world that feared Islamism. The founder of the SSNP was a Christian, as the founder of the Baath was Greek orthodox. The Kataeb was founded by Bachir Gemayel, a Maronite Christian militant. All these ideologies were officially secular but had mainly Christian support. Islamic fascism is a contradiction in all senses of the word. Islamism has no ideas about racial superiority either. That is why it is utterly ridiculous to have an Islamic fascism article.
My views on this article are that it is a way for WalkingEagles and Klonimus to insert their own judgement into an Anti-Islamic term that should frankly be listed under political epithets. Just because neo-cons have started using this term more does not make it factually or historically correct. I urge WalkingEagles and Klonimus to debate me here about the history of their supposed "Islamic fascism", I'm sure their extensive knowledge on Middle Eastern history and Fascism will help them. Yuber 16:20, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
With your permission I'd love to include your thoughts on this in the article. I didn't really understand what your problem with the article was but I do now. Hopefully that will address the concerns people have.
I am sad you think I am anti-Muslim because that is simply not true and is simply not reflected in anything I've done, said or written. Like most Americans probably I am concerned about the threat of al Qaeda but am opposed to the seeming intolerance of Christian fundamentalism of Islamic fundamentalism equally. There seems to be many people keen to scream (virtually!) at each other over this topic, so I probably should have started elsewhere on Wikipedia like Lego or something. Although perhaps there are also such problems in Legoland. Anyway, I'm still learning so I hope you cut me some slack as the article evolves and contribute anything you can. I really appreciate you explaining you views in detail, I am obviously still learning and maybe others are too if they haven't closed their minds to new data. Walkingeagles 16:33, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've removed this again. First, its caption is extremely debatable (the identification of various Islamic groups as 'fascist' hasn't been justified). Secondly, it's not doing anything important in the article; its only purpose seems to be to turn the reader's stomach — presumably in order to stir her emotions against supposedly evil Muslims. Thirdly, have you considered the feelings of the friends or family of the victim, should they come across this? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 16:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I believe it is an important image, it is clearly associated with al Qaeda which the article identifies as an Islamic fascist group. I agree the image is unpleasant but it is factual and relevant. It has been a very widely distributed image as Google shows and even the video was widely distributed by those responsible for killing him. I have NEVER ever said that Muslims are evil or anything similarly racist. So I really ask that you stop making false assumptions about me and show me the respect and courtesy I show you. Walkingeagles 16:45, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I note Yuber persists in deleting the image which is probably the most powerful visual image we have of the tactics of Islamic fascism. Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for the beheading, the article identifies al Qaeda as an Islamic fascist group so I can't imagine a more appropriate (although admittedly unpleasant) image. Walkingeagles 23:43, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How is the image relevant to Islamic fascism? What evidence of fascism do you see in beheading someone? Yuber 23:56, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hey folks, sorry if this is not exactly in the right place but... Its all well and good to say that Islama(o)facism "does not exist", or similar. However, it is a new term entering the lexicon whether one likes it or not. It means different things to different people and at this point that interpretation is in a state of flux, so trying to submit an authoritive reference at this juncture is putting the cart before the horse, and frankly a little bit self-important (in the mildest and most friendly use of the word)
For example: To me it represents a theocratic totalitarian ideology that substitutes a twisted fanatic interpretation of Islam for fanatic nationalism/racism. And there is a component that in my view includes a zealous hegemonic "Jihad" to export that ideology at any cost. A "Greater Islamic Reich", if you will permit the allusion.
What about the Fascist/Corporatism component? Splitting hairs, don't really care. And it sure ain't Marxist/Leninist. (Who was it, Claire Booth Luce or Ayn Rand maybe that said communism and fascism were the same thing? Or something to that effect.)
Now... will that satisfy some poli-sci post graduate? Probably not. Undoubtedly it means other things to other people, or its like pornography, you can't quite define it, but you know it when you see it. The Taliban, Al Queda and the current government of Iran fit the bill in my view.
IF someone wants to take a stab at posting a definition and discussion of the nature of Islamafacism, I humbly recommend keeping it simple. Don't try to over intellectuallize it.
I've removed this from the article:
You say they're terrorists, I say they're freedom fighters. And I want to instill the same jihadic feeling in our peoples' heart, in the Aryan race, that they have for their father, who they call Allah. I don't believe that they were the ones that attacked us," Kreis said. "And even if they did, even if you say they did, I don't care!
Three years ago, I met a Swiss Islamic convert named Ahmed Huber, who began his life as a devotee of Adolf Hitler and moved on to praising former Iranian leader Ayatollah Khomeini, who led that nation's Islamic revolution and vigorously opposed U.S. policies.
Huber wanted to forge a fresh alliance between Islamic radicals and neo-Nazis in Europe and the United States. And he cannot be simply dismissed as a crackpot: Huber served on the board of directors of a Swiss bank and holding company that President Bush accused of helping fund al Qaeda.
It's clearly not appropriate. The main text isn't about what Islamic people or groups think, but about what white supremacists say about them; the only relevant part is wholly in the form of a quotation, and concerns one person who's claimed to be a Muslim and a fascist.
I've also removed a couple of other unsubstantiated claims, reorganised the text to flow more smoothly, and corrected a number of internal links. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:58, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The vfd discussion gained no consensus on 08:30, 9 May 2005 (UTC): Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Islamic fascism
I am wondering if this is a no consensus:
Cheers and respect from Svest 08:47, May 9, 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up
Unfortunately, "merge" and "redirect" are counted as "keep" votes. It's not obvious, and I think that people should be informed of this more clearly, but there you are. In this case, the votes are exactly balanced, even though only four out of eighteen people voted to keep. It's not clear whether the admin who closed the VfD merely counted votes (which is against policy) or actually looked at what people said (which is policy), because no explanation was given, but we have to assume good faith. A bad result, though, as the majority of those involved will agree. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:22, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes — looking at what I said I can see that it might have sounded like an insinuation of bad faith, but it wasn't meant to. I'm sure that you didn't merely count votes. My suspicion is that many of those voting "merge" or "redirect" would have voted "delete" if they'd realised that they'd be counted as voting "keep" (I often forget myself). Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:53, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
The Islamofascism article is almost empty of any content now. Probably that article should redirect here now. 66.94.94.154 12:44, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Redirected from pigfly.
Pigs in flight is a phenomenon cited by Christopher Hitchens. It is therefore a valid topic for an article in WP.
Hitchens was recently quoted in the Oceania Times as acknowleding that neither "pigs" nor "flight," in their technical "you, know, old-style-dictionary meanings," accurately described the phenomenon he had in mind, but insisted that "there is this thing, and I wasn't sure what to call it, and I realized I kind of liked calling it pigs in flight."
According to Hitchens, pigs in flight refers to the practice of drunken men throwing dwarves as tavern entertainment. "The activity itself has certainly become one of our cultural reference points," he insisted in a recent interview, "and the plain fact is that since I started using the term pigs in flight to describe dwarf-tossing, other people have laughed a couple of times, clearly an indication of wide acceptance of the term."
Opponents of the term pigs in flight (or its associated epithet pigfly) apparently are hung up on words actually carrying discernable meanings, though this approach has been designated as thoughtcrime in certain sections of Oceania. Some even claim the terms in question are offensive, but those individuals are under investigation.
An anonymous fan of Hitchens offered this response from the blogosphere: "Look, Hitchens said it. And he didn't just, like, say it. He said it more than once. That's what people aren't considering in their brains. And you know what? He also wrote about it. Hitchens did, I mean, with like a computer and everything. Again, he did this more than once. Plus a pig is a mammal. Are you saying a dwarf isn't a mammal? And plus, like, when you fly, you leave the ground, right? Are you saying someone who throws a dwarf doesn't make that dwarf leave the ground? Christopher Hitchens says that's flying, so that's what it is."
That the term is regarded by certain Muslims and other unpersons as not only offensive and inaccurate, but self-contradictory, is a point with which we need not concern ourselves here.
History had already been rewritten, but fragments of the literature of the past survived here and there, imperfectly censored, and so long as one retained one's knowledge of Oldspeak it was possible to read them. In the future such fragments, even if they chanced to survive, would be unintelligible and untranslatable. It was impossible to translate any passage of Oldspeak into Newspeak unless it either referred to some technical process or some very simple everyday action, or was already orthodox(goodthinkful would be the Newspeak expression) in tendency. -- George Orwell, The Principles of Newspeak
You mix a lot of different arguments into this, the two primary ones being:
1) There is a consensus here, both versions survived VfD: The article(s) should exist. 2) AFAIK there is no current factual distpue on the current content of either. In fact the Islamic Fascism article makes most of the points you're complaining about: ie. it's a neocon neologisim that has nothing to do with 1930s Italian politics or the ideologies that derived from them. 3) You have a point about prior versions of the article but I do not believe it applies to the current form. Arguing against the article based on past bias or potential future bias is a good way to shut down the whole wikipedia. Saswann 15:48, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, that is a lot of material to cram into the first sentance of an article. And I might note that the article ( Islamic fascism) does make the latter two points. The first one is properly part of Fascism. I think (trying to believe the best of everyone) shouting down is due more to the fact that it is very hard to make a NPOV edit on something you are passionate about. Also, while your last point may be well-meaning, it will never work in an encyclopeda that documents real-world usage; (see Talk:anarcho-capitalism) Saswann 16:24, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
So, if I gather correctly, your issue boils down to the fact that the point that this is used solely as a epithet, and that point is not made strongly enough in the lead paragraph? Saswann 17:29, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I have a suggestion - if it's an epithet, why not suggest the proper and acceptable terminology? I note that that hasn't been done in the article itself. And I have no suggestion on an alternate acceptable term - that's how I got to this page in the first place. Netdance 04:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I have created an overview page Neofascism_and_religion and am proposing that this page be redirected to this larger and more detailed article. -- Cberlet 14:48, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I agree. BrandonYusufToropov 15:05, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Disagree: I might point out that by re-directing to an article called Neofascism_and_religion you are implicitly making the case for what seems to be the primariy objection to this article, i.e. you imply that what the American neocons refer to as Islamic fascism is actually a Fascist/ Neofascist political movement. It will also make it less clear about the usage of the term and its issues since any disclaimers, most importantly the fact that it is a derogitory epithet and not some global political movement, have to be buried within the body of a huge article-- which people searching for Islamic fascism/ Islamofascist may not bother to read all the way through. IMHO, it is much more sensible having a short pithy article stating; "This is a slur, this is where it came from, this is how it is used." Saswann 16:08, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
The argument is about content. You cannot change the issues over existing content simply by surrounding it with more content-- That might address sins of omission, and context, but is seems to me that these aren't the primary issues. Saswann 18:10, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Extreme Disagree This has been gone over multiple times. Islamofascism was the target of an apparently successful defacement campaign following a failed Vote for Deletion, and appears now slated by less-than-unanimous consent (given Mel Etitis' misrepresentation of at least one user's comments) to be merged into Islamic Fascism. To then merge Islamic Fascism away is beyond ridiculous. It goes against the objection of the editor Mel Etitis misrepresented as well, which was that the merge was fine provided the content of Islamic Fascism was not then defaced. There are also the objections of Klonimus at the talk page for Islamofascism to consider]]. Enviroknot 21:33, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have a clue how to make the redirects work properly? I presume we need to archive the pages first? Three pages are in play Islamic fascism, Islamofascism, and Christian fascism. Plus, one page is protected.-- Cberlet 13:46, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be some overlap between this page and Islamofascism. My suggestion is that Islamofascism is redirected to this page and maybe given its own section here.
I also think there is too much information above the contents box - this area should be for a minor descriptor of the page's focus and the rest should be put below. Infact a lot of what is mentioned above the box is indeed mentioned below.
I think there are far too many examples of use in public discourse and all of these are regarding islamofascism and in this respect they mirror the page Islamofascism. Steve-g 09:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC) everbody knows what is happening in abughraib prisons in the way of bible(as bush said every night he talked with god and god had given him an mission) and torah lover man.so interesting also these islamofacists are standing on patrol sea.nobody in here is telling the truth about this term which is first used by an evangelic president whose teachers are jews.very interesting.hf
I don't think that
Islamofascism should be redirected to Islamic fascism, since I think that this article is dubious and inflammatory, and Islamofascism is a particularly significant neologism with a great deal of current resonance. I would merge the other way after this article has undergone substantial editing, possibly, but certainly not merge anything into this article.
Richardjames444
18:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
A small number of groups? (line 1) That sounds incredibly wrong. - Anon 8/14/06
A LewRockwell.com article about this insult, calling it a Big Lie [2] -- Striver 10:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
OK folks. Back to Wikipedia policy. This page is a redirect. Add material to Neofascism and religion#Islam or Islamofascism or any of the several other appropriate pages. This page was redirected after a lengthy and contentious debate. Don't stir up tropuble and insert POV material here. Add material to other pages and seek to build consensus with other editors. Thanks.-- Cberlet 02:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
This page and several others were the subject of lengthy and heated debates, numerous attempts to delete the pages, POV wars, numerous attempts to rename the pages, etc. These discussions are therefore on a number of pages going back over a year. Most recently there has been a discussion on Islamofascism, although even that page has had several names. Almost all of the text on the Islamic Fascism page that was recently revived already had been moved to either Islamofascism or Neofascism and religion. The very outdated and redundant page was simply switched back on by deleting the redirect. Therefore almost the entire page was redundant. There was no serious attempt to engage editors in a discussion on either Islamofascism or Neofascism and religion. There was no substantative discussion over several weeks--I waited to see if there was a serious dicussion. There was not. POV page forks are a violation of Wiki policy. Any editor can do what I did. I have no intention of trying to suppress claims about Islam and fascism, and in fact have written scholarly articles where I argue some forms of militant Islam are indeed forms of theocratic or clerical fascism. At the same time, I was just quoted in Newsweek saying that the term "Islamofascism" creeps me out. Over time, the two pages Islamofascism (on the term) and Neofascism and religion (on the contemporary debate), along with a few pages that mention the Grand Mufti and the Phalangists, have been the best way to keep this topic from turning, once again, into an endless POV war.-- Cberlet 18:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
As I mentioned above, there had been some practical problems with having only Islamofascism and Neofascism and religion (or Neofascism and religion#Islam). Some people apparently use the terms "Islamofascism" and "Islamic Fascism" interchangeably. Most notably President Bush. Some Wikipedians found it inappropriate to have quotes containing "Islamic Fascism" on the Islamofascism page. There is no proof (except maybe some original research) that president Bush intended neofascism when he said "fascism". -- Francis Schonken 07:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, you don't address the practical problem I mentioned above. Regarding the proposed merger, both "merge" templates (that is the mergeto template at Islamofascism, and the mergefrom template at Islamic fascism) point to the *same* discussion page. So that solves that automatically. -- Francis Schonken 08:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I oppose to doing this by vote. I'd rather like to see issues (like the Practical problems mentioned above) addressed. Unless that is done, a vote is void of actual meaning. -- Francis Schonken 06:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Oppose merger-- Cberlet 19:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Oppose -- The Islamofascism term has a significant enough history to warrant its own article. ( → Netscott) 15:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Comment: Francis, since I gather this is your proposal to merge rather than merely redirect, can you summarize what material is here that you feel merits merging? - Jmabel | Talk 06:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Heres what hasnt been moved to either the neofascism page or the islamofascism page:
INTRO
islamic fascism is a term adopted by journalists including Stephen Schwartz [2] and Christopher Hitchens intended to refer to Islamist extremists, including terrorist groups such as al Qaeda. The term has gained wide currency in the United States, particularly among neo-conservatives. The term is a pejorative coined by critics of militant Islamist groups - there are no self-identified Islamic fascists. The most recent appellation by President Bush describing assorted cells of British Muslims of Pakistani origin in England.
Fascism is a particular kind of authoritarian political movement adopted in Italy during the 1930s. On the European axis of left and right wing politics fascism is understood to be an expression of extreme Right-wing politics. Modern usage has tended to extend the definition of the term to refer to any totalitarian worldview regardless of political ideology (see: Fascist (epithet)). In the case of "Islamic fascism" this refers to political movements that either call for, or are believed by their opponents to call for, some authoritarian imposition of Islamic law. This explains how critics associate the term with groups of Islamic fundamentalists like the Taliban which governed Afghanistan, al Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah.
Robert S. Wistrich has described Islamic fascism as adopting a totalitarian mind-set, a hatred of the West, fanatical extremism, repression of women, loathing of Jews, a firm belief in conspiracy theories, and dreams of global hegemony.[3]
Many dispute the accuracy of the term Islamic "fascism." They point to the fact that political ideologies actually derived from fascism have been violently opposed to Islamism.[citation needed]
On the other hand, Daniel Pipes equates only militant Islamism to fascism. Thus Pipes and most others critics say they refer to a small number of Islamist zealots, including terrorist groups such as al Qaeda.
The use of the term "Islamofascism" is contentious and discussed on the page Islamofascism. For pre-1945 events, see Fascism: Overtures to Muslims and Arab countries.
APPLICATION Islamists do not advocate corporatism, an important component of "classic" fascist governments in Italy and Germany. However, the Islamist idea of Ummah has been compared to the German fascist idea of Volksgemeinschaft. [2]
Historian of fascism, Roger Eatwell, notes that the debate can be traced back to fascism's heyday: "Some made this equation – though in the reverse direction - back in the 1930s. For instance, Carl Jung said of Adolf Hitler in 1939: 'he is like Mohammed. The emotion in Germany is Islamic, warlike and Islamic. They are all drunk with a wild god.'." [7]
Origins and usage Christopher Hitchens used the term "Islamic fascism" or "theocratic fascism" to describe the fatwa declared on February 14, 1989 by Ayatollah Khomeini against Salman Rushdie over The Satanic Verses, an event that was pivotal in shaping the attitude toward Islamism of Hitchens and several other prominent journalists on the left.[9] Hitchens also used the term "fascism with an Islamic face" in The Nation[10] after the 9/11 attacks, when the phrase spread to the blogosphere, shortened to "Islamofascism." For Hitchens and ex-Marxist Julie Burchill, who also uses these terms, there is a resonance with phrases like clerical fascism used by Marxists.
The scholar Walter Laqueur has also described Islamism as a new form of clerical fascism.[11]
On October 6, 2005 President George W Bush used the term Islamofascism in a speech to the National Endowment for Democracy.[12]
The entire Examples of use in public discourse
Mrdthree 05:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
plus now:
In late 2005, President George W. Bush and other high U.S. government officials began to refer to the idea of "Islamo-fascism" or (slightly later) "Islamic fascism", and suggested that opposing militant Islamic terrorism was similar to opposing the Nazis during World War II. [3]
[4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] This created storm of controversy as supporters and opponents debated these contentions. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
Moved from Neofascism and religion while none of the Bush references show the use of "neo"-anything, so doesn't belong in "neofascism and religion" article: moving para to Islamic fascism article.
Anyway, seems there is no "POV fork pushed by one editor". -- Francis Schonken 07:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Further, if you contend the controversy has ended, that can only mean you fully agree with what I wrote on your talk page some days ago [12] (on which point I haven't seen convincing arguments that would make me change my mind):
Re. "consensus on other pages": at talk:Islamofascism consensus was established regarding "[...] starting an article (using content from there and elsewhere) entitled Islamic fascism [...]". I quoted this prior talk yesterday in Talk:Islamofascism#Merger Discussion (from several sections higher on that page). I've seen no convincing arguments to change that consensus. I haven't seen such discussions here on this talk page, nor on any other talk page. -- Francis Schonken 07:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Content of the Islamic fascism page proposed by SlimVirgin ( [13] - [14] - [15]):
{{ dab}}
I object to this because of the simple rules of Wikipedia:Disambiguation:"[...] disambiguations are paths leading to different topic pages that share essentially the same term in their title." (my bolding)
Basicly (for a concrete example), when a user reads or hears "Islamic fascism"/"Islamic fascist" in a communication of pres. Bush, and s/he types such expression in the Wikipedia search field, and presses "Go", this user is left with a choice, that s/he can't resolve without knowing in advance what is on the so-called "disambiguated" pages. This is not how disambiguation is supposed to work.
Further, after reading these so-called "disambiguated" pages it becomes all too apparent that there is POV forking involved: one of the pages suggests that "Islamofascism" and "Islamic fascism" are not synonyms. If that user happens to have taken the other choice from the so-called disambiguation page, s/he'll learn that Bush uses these terms interchangeably. Sorry, as it is now, this is a most elementary example of POV forking. -- Francis Schonken 07:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, didn't see an argument w.r.t. the mentioned problems. -- Francis Schonken 07:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The compromise consensus among those discussing this matter was to make it a disambiguation page. The majority opposed the merger. Please, Francis Schonken, stop reverting this decision and join with other editors on the other pages where this matter is being discussed.-- Cberlet 15:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it would maybe be possible to resolve the POV issues by turning the Islamic fascism page into a Wikipedia:Summary style article, with two main sections:
On the (very important!) condition that content which is currently only on the Islamic fascism page (see overview of that content above in #INVENTORY) is properly merged out. I'm not saying that "necessarily" all the content summed up in that #INVENTORY section above needs to be preserved, I'm only talking about "properly merging out" that part of that content about which we can agree that it satisfies the core content policies.
As far as I'm concerned a "summary style" format with three sections ("pre 1945", "1945 till end of 20th century", "from end of 20th century") could be considered too, but I fear the 2nd of these proposed sections would maybe be a bit empty. The so-called "genealogies" trying to connect an Islamic thread from pre-1945 fascism to the early 21st century revival of such verbiage seems extremely scant, not supported by reliable sources, and basicly 21st century "re-construction" of an history that never happened (in the 2nd half of the 20th century islamic/arab extremism and terrorism was rather connected with anti-fascist extreme left movements like -in the case of terrorism- Rote Armee Fraction, as far as I know).
Who thinks a 2-section (or possibly 3-section) summary style article as described above a good idea? -- Francis Schonken 09:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I understand that you are unhappy that the merger was not approved. If you want to join the ongoing discussions at Islamofascism and Neofascism and religion that would be constructive.-- Cberlet 22:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
"Islamic facism" should be changed to "Islamic fascism" in the title. Peter O. ( Talk) 21:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I've made the page a redirect to Islamofascism. It seems absurb to have two pages with such similar names. " Neofascism and religion Section on Islam" is just more of the same type of material as at Islamofascism, so there no reason anyone would want to go there in preference to Islamofascism. I say just take the reader directly to the material. Kauffner 11:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Reverted. Do not do this again. Your opinion should be shared on one of the existing content pages and a consensus reached. We have been through this repeatedly. This page was just unprotected to prevent just this type of POV and disruptive edit.-- Cberlet 13:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I must agree with Kauffner that there seems to be no reason at all why this page should be a disambiguation per WP:DAB. Neo-fascism and religion is clearly a super-topic of "Islamic fascism" with a much wider scope. Anything other than a redirect to Islamofascism is a violation of the "principle of least surprise" -- and this statement has nothing to do with any opinion on the topic as such. dab (𒁳) 22:47, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
<---There are lots of reasons why this page exists, and it is entirely appropriate to ask that you discuss this at Islamofascism or Neofascism and religion which are the pages monitored by other editors who helped work out this compromise. Please edit collaboratively, and avoid personal attacks.-- Cberlet 23:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
the only reason for a disambiguation page is "to allow users to choose among several Wikipedia articles, usually when a user searches for an ambiguous term." Nobody typing "Islamic fascism" can be reasonably expected to look for the fascism or the fascism and religion article. The proper redirect traget is Islamofascism. If there is something wrong with that article, you should fix it there instead of obstructing redirection to it. If "Islamofascism" is a problematic term, {{ move}} the article to Islam and fascism, Fascism in Islam or similar, I don't care. The entire point is one of Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages), which for some reason or other you don't seem to want to implement here, for reasons best known to yourself. dab (𒁳) 23:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)