![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The article is clearly one-sided and anti-Islamic OneGuy 20:03, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC) Agreed, Islamic Golden age?, in my history book it's called the ottoman empire Erlyrisa ( talk) 16:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Specifically the statements:
Please provide citation for that. I have sources that state otherwise. e.g. "Golden Age of Persia" by Richard Frye. I see enough mathematicians here to invalidate such a claim: http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Indexes/Arabs.html
That is highly opinionated. An entire book has been written contradicting this:
http://ebs.allbookstores.com/book/074860457X
Futhermore, science IS the foundation of technology. Therefore to say that: "There was a lot of speculation and very little application in technology" is quite an erroneous statement. Without trigonometry, for example, optical technology could never have progressed.-- Zereshk 12:53, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
--As far as i have seen, this is the most cooperative group regarding anything Islam related that I have come upon in Wikipedia. Everything is pretty factual, and people respect other's opinions. Pretty soon this will become a featured article!! MOI 21:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Moses Maimonides was Spanish and not Egyptian as stated in the previous version of the article.-- Vonaurum 07:17, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This page is clearly one-sided favoring Islam. Specifically:
In addition the entire page is badly written and is full of grammatical errors. freestylefrappe 21:41, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
OK. I'm done. Heres what I did:
More generally, if the facts are correct, the article should stand. That doesn't make it one-sided. Anyway, there is a criticism section at the end. m.e. 11:03, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Ladino was not irrelevant. It was the key link between maintaining Sephardic culture after being expelled. Ladino is still an important language to Jews in Argentina, Brazil, and Costa Rica. While it is not necessarily important to the article as a whole it was just as important as translations to or from Hebrew. freestylefrappe 22:27, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
i hope im inserting this answer correctly as its my first time commenting here. Points are only "relevant" or "irrelevant" in a given context, and the point seems to be that no matter how relevant the Ladino language/dialect may be/have been to intra Jewish communication then or now, it remains irrelevant to the passing on into Western Europe of Greek texts through Latin translations. Talmidh2006 16:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
-- There are also the Han Muslims in China. According to beleif a delegation led by Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas was sent to china, and the emporer let them preach in his kingdom, upon being impressed by their great knowledge. MOI 21:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
-- This whole article reads like a giant, biased Islamic pride parade. One section reads, "Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech", but a later section reads: "harsh punishment and prosecution awaiting alleged heretics and Zendiqs, no sane scientist or intellectual would dare express his/her true faith and religious thoughts." Many of the accomplishments contain a grain of truth, but are quickly exaggerated. I have a feeling these are the kinds of things Muslim children are told in Middle Eastern countries to instill pride in their heritage and build confidence in their religion, but it's essentially just an exaggerated list of "Islamic" accomplishments mixed with downplaying anyone else's contributions. Can anyone take seriously sections like: "Muslim polymaths ... had a wide breadth of knowledge in many different fields of religious and secular learning, comparable to the later "Renaissance Men", such as Leonardo da Vinci, of the European Renaissance period. Polymath scholars were so common during the Islamic Golden Age that it was rare to find a scholar who specialized in any single field at the time" -- as if the "Islamic Golden Age" had hundreds if not thousands of Leonardo da Vinci's.
I think my cleanup needs some explanation. I removed the See also section and relocated the links to the introduction and the "Science" section. In addition, I relocated Philosophy-specific information that was under the Science section to Philosophy. freestylefrappe 02:41, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
The article givest the dates 750-1500 CE for the Islamic Golden Age. Where do these dates come from? These numbers are way off the mark. Please see the consult the following academic source: [ [1]] (this is a power-point presentation, please refer to slide 7 of 7). Academic historians believe that the Islamic Golden Age began after 700 CE and ended after 1000 CE, after which the Islamic empire went into a 200 year decine until the Mongol invasions that caused the fall of the Islamic Empire, the loss of the Caliphate, and the destruction of Baghdad on February 10, 1258 CE. It's obviously false that the Islamic Golden Age survived the Mongol sacking of Baghdad in the year 1258 CE, so the dates 750-1500 CE are definitely wrong. 750 CE seems to coincide with the year in which the Ummayad dynasty was replaced by the Abbasid dynasty - this is not a very accurate point of reference for when the Islamic Golden Age began, it actually began somewhat earlier. Now I have no idea where the editors of the article got th year 1500 CE from, but it's wrong and seems more like a nice round number that someone pull out of thin air. -- Zeno of Elea 04:09, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Someone added a sentence to the medicine section, which stated that Muhammad had discovered the virtues of Nigella sativa, which cures everything except death. A little googling established that Muslim doctors had made much use of "black seed" or "black cumin", due to a hadith, or oral tradition, that Muhammad had recommended it. There are many Islamic websites touting the virtues of Nigella and listing various "scientific" studies made of the seed, usually by Muslim scientists.
I deleted the sentence. It might find a place in an Islamic medicine article (is there such a thing?) but it seems out of place in this one. Even non-Muslim historians of medicine agree that superstitions aside (use of Nigella, drinking water made from ink rinsed from prayers and Quranic inscriptions, Hand of Fatima, etc. etc.) Muslim medicine was generally much less drastic and much more successful than European medicine of the time.
There should probably be a link to Academy of Gundishapur in there. A lot of what the Muslims did was built on previous Persian achievements. Zora 09:59, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
If you think about placing it somewhere else, than it should be here Early Muslim medicine. Cheers -- Svest 23:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
I was trying to clean it up based on the original note that you had written up in responce to the quote from "OneGuy" The clean up was done based on the historical studies and keep in line the essence of Wiki's neutrality factor.
--this is funny. Most of these things are just cultural beleifs. For example, there was this beleif about how keeping your nails long was a virtue, and it came from god knows what source. MOI 21:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
An anon added a long and erudite section on mathematics, which seems to have been cribbed from [2]. I removed it. Zora 06:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC) hjk
Since when has Wikipedia allowed such celebrations of revisionism? I suppose anyone with an official-sounding source may come in here and correct it all, though. 209.7.59.172 18:23, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I read the last sentence of the last paragraph of Islamic_Golden_Age#Medicine - and then read Cataract_surgery#History. These two articles are at odds with each other. I vote the last sentence of the last paragraph which states that "Indeed, Muslim doctors were removing cataracts with hollow needles over 1000 years before Westerners dared attempt such a task." is removed unless evidence is available to the contrary. Ttiotsw 20:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The entire section is uncited and it's mostly just anti-Islamic nonsense. To my knowledge, there is no scholarly dispute that the Islamic Golden Age never existed. And if there is, it should be cited. The section mentions the book, Rebirth by Shoja-e-din Shafa. I find this citation to be dubious, as a simple Google search show that the man used to work for Shah Pahlavi and has consistently written controversial works attacking Islam. I've come across disputes over the Islamic Golden Age in the past. Two professors at my college -- one of history and one of philosophy -- told me previously that there is no scholarly dispute over the Golden Age of Islam, one main reason being because of the abundance of Arabic terms which made their way into the English language. In the absence of extraordinary contribution to science, there's no real justification for how so many scholarly terms are of Arabic origin. Robocracy 01:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
AND READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE!!! MOI 21:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
-- As the Critisicm suggests, the empires that were mainly Christian didnt attribute their learning to the Christian Religion. Then again, the Islamic Empire's learning was based upon not only the teachings of scholars of old, but upon Islamic and Quranic teachings as well. For example Ibn Riza, explained that smallpox and measles were different, and how a fever is the bodies way of fighting disease, while the Europeans had beleived that it was because the body had too much blood. Ibn Rushd wrote a medical encyclopedia, in the year 1150. Ibn Sina, born 980 wrote the Canons of Medicine, which had been used in European universities for 500 years. He learned what he knew, from studying hard and visiting the sick. The main similarity between all these is that even though many scholors were from maybe the Ummayud or Abbasid dynasty, they were all connected by the Islamic Empire. Because of the encouragement of learning in Islam, this Empire funded large sums of money towards Learning institutions. [ [4]] Just a bit of evidence :) MOI 21:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Who dates the "Golden Age" to 622, the date of the Hijra? No scientific or artistic advances date from this period, or to that of the Rashidun. Indeed, the achievements mentioned in this article do not begin until after the fall of the Umayyads. A better title might be, "Persia Recovers." Proabivouac 04:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The article currently states, "Much of this learning and development can be linked to geography. Even prior to Islam's presence, the city of Mecca served as a center of trade in Arabia and the Islamic prophet Muhammad was a merchant." I'd be curious to learn who said this. It's quite ridiculous, as Mecca has never been a center of scientific innovation. Proabivouac 06:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
This article does not properly differenciate between Arabs and Muslims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.158.97 ( talk) 19:37, August 24, 2007 (UTC)
This section doesnt even consider the European interventions (such as the reconquista, the crusades], European renaissance or the discovery of new sea routes through Africa which caused trade through the middle east to decline. Factors such as these should atleast be considered dont you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.176.204.55 ( talk) 17:02, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
Or maybe Imam Hamid al-Ghazali's (1058-1111) claim that mathematics was the work of the devil played a role. To quote the section on Al-Ghazali: "one of his major works, The Incoherence of the Philosophers, changed the course of Islamic thought, shifting it away from the influence of ancient Greek and Hellenistic philosophy, and towards cause-and-effect that were determined by Allah or intermediate angels.". He advocated "the belief that all causal events and interactions are not the product of material conjunctions but rather the immediate and present will of God."
I would argue tha there was no decline prior to 1924 - economic life by all quantative measures was on the rise, industrialisation was happening at a repid pace, political thought was complex and sophisticated, sciences were being adopted at an increasing pace. I think "decline theory" is part of revisioninst history - the real decline occured with dismemberment of the Ottoman Caliphate into natinal states, destroying trade networks, ripping the fabric of society apart, appointment of new and inexperienced rulers in new states that implemented misguided policies for decades. Worth considering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.129.18 ( talk) 23:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Near the end of the section commerce there are the sentences
These were Jewish, not Muslim, innovations, as can be seen by the reference above to a synagogue. In particular it was the Radhanite Jews, important merchants from the 8th century to the 11th century, who laid the foundations for the modern economic system (see Radhanites, Radhanite Jews).
To me this sounds like an insertion by someone who would like to make his views heard, not like a neutral description of a dispute. Additionally, there are no references cited to show that a dispute exists. I think the sentences should be removed or, if there is real dispute about the source of the innovations, reworded into a more neutral way.
194.37.73.215 13:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
This article refers to a time period, but only discusses certain aspects of it. Arrow740 05:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
What is this supposed to mean? Arrow740 06:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
It would be great if you had a map showing where the Muslim world was during this age. -- Mattisse 17:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
The whole article springs in the face with its religiocentrism (for the lack of a better word). The obsession to attribute the title 'father of xyz' is only the most conspicuous feature. Much worse is that the article is abuzz with 'creative quoting' and cleverly interpreting sources. Is there on Wikipedia a tag to identify systematically biased articles as such? High time. This article cannot remain here, in its present form and intention it flies in the face of everything Wikipedia stands for. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 04:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Robert Briffault did indeed state that the Arabs did not contribute many individual scientific discoveries (which was a fairly common view in the early 20th century) but this is not relevant to the scientific method. As far as the scientific method is concerned, he stated:
"The debt of our science to that of the Arabs does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories; science owes a great deal more to Arab culture, it owes its existence. The ancient world was, as we saw, pre-scientific."
"What we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry, of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and those methods were introduced into the European world by the Arabs."
Another source I cited, Rosanna Gorini, states:
"According to the majority of the historians al-Haytham was the pioneer of the modern scientific method."
As far as I know, there are only a minority of modern scholars who disagree with the scientific method being developed in the medieval Muslim world.
As for WP:SYN, it says that using two or more different sources to advance a particular position is original research. I was using the same single source (in this case, Adam Lucas).
Regards, Jagged 85 ( talk) 11:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree certain aspects of the page are worded in a POV way. However, I disagree with some of the assessments made here. The purpose of every Wikipedia page is not to POV-mine and neutralize any statement that you find controversial with a POV text. Whether or not you like it, many of these things did happen. However, certain terms (as already mentioned, "father of..") are very over-the-top phrases that should be avoided. Certain things (e.g. capitalism) are a little bit misleading. It would be fair to say a proto-capitalistic system was cultivated by the Muslims, but the capitalistic systems that are used today do not owe their origins to Islam, but rather, to the guilds of Europe. That doesn't mean these systems of economy shouldn't be mentioned, it just means they shouldn't be given undue weight. As for WP:SYN, I do not think that applies here. It is acceptable to use multiple sources in order to gather information about the Islamic Golden Age. He is not using it to advance a distinctly unique position. The Islamic Golden Age is not someone's personal OR; it is a well documented event in history. Similarly, Mazdak created an ultra-communalistic religion that showed many parallels to communism; that does not, however, mean Mazdak was the direct influence over communism as we know it today. The Mazdak article does a very good job at explaining how the Mazdak system was still distinctly different; perhaps this article could do the same with respect to capitalism, as an example. I disagree with some of these assessments that we need certain different points of view in this article; I think we should be more concerned with what Muslims actually did during this time period, rather than worrying about what someone has to say about it. Informative articles are ideal; critique articles are not, particularly because they have a tendency to be biased. Let's focus on the elucidating the facts. While it would be acceptable to call this an "Islamic" Golden Age, I do not think labelling specific individuals as "Muslim" scholars is necessarily fair. It would be nonsense to label Galileo, for example, as a "Christian" scientist, even if he was Christian. Avicenna, for example, disagreed with the concept of resurrection. Al-Razi and Omar Khayyam were both opposed to organized religions. - Rosywounds ( talk) 22:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
In response to the questions you've raised:
Regards, Jagged 85 ( talk) 18:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
PS: I checked Ahmad Y Hassan and Donald Routledge Hill (1986), Islamic Technology: An Illustrated History, p. 282, Cambridge University Press. It is clearly quoted out of context. Both authors do not maintain at all that Muslims sparked the Scientific Revolution as we know it. They just want to say that Islam was the driving force behind the "Muslim Scientific revolution" - which is not to be confused with modern science. Regards Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 02:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
The reference for this article comes from a weak source, describing some highly dubious practices, and the reference to Ibn-Nafis purportedly radical challenge to Galen in the article is scanty and unreferenced to his writings. This reference may be better: S. A. Al-Dabbagh (1978). "Ibn Al-Nafis and the pulmonary circulation", The Lancet 1, p. 1148, though I have not yet been able to access it.
Reference 94 which may be found here [5], refers to Ibn Nafis' critique of Ibn Sina's views on the porosity of the intraventricular septum (per Galen), but again lacks detail and looks revisionist in character - it would be helpful to have a better direct reference to Ibn Nafis actual writing in Sharh Tashrih Al Qanun. Ebed-melech ( talk) 19:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
This article reads too much like a laundry list of Islamic accomplishments. The blockquotes don't help that much either. As for the sources used (since NPOV concerns have been raised by more competent editors than I), I can't personally weigh in since I'm not qualified enough but there have been cases where the main contributor to this article has grossly misused or misinterpreted sources in other articles, attributing imagined conclusions to them (that's not an attack of sorts, rather a call to accurate representation of the sources).
In any case, since this article is being edited so heavily, something perhaps could be done regarding the first two concerns (lists, blockquotes) before its further expansion, where it'll be even harder to bring it to a more readable state. 3rdAlcove ( talk) 22:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I deleted from the article because
I can understand the hysteria that some people may have if legitimate contributions from Islamic soceities are acknowledged. But teh critisicm section was really pathetic.
Suigeneris ( talk) 15:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Ctesiphon7 ( talk) 12:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
(UTC)kimberly bussey said 'this is a rubbish article anyway so i dont see the point!!
I thought it was all about scientific and historical facts and not about losing and winning! and did not expect more offending comments, either. At any rate, A more comprehensive criticism will be added in due time with crisp citations. And last but not least, Shoja-edin-Shafa is not an obscure Iranian scholar. He will definitely be cited more thoroughly. Until then, this article more than deserves to be ornated by that POV tag. Ctesiphon7 ( talk) 13:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Ctesiphon7 ( talk) 09:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Ctesiphon7 ( talk) 07:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
If I am partial and uninformed in this respect, then a host of medieval along with a myriad of contemporary historians are so, since I am merely reflecting their comments verbatim. Ctesiphon7 ( talk) 10:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I was curious about the "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the Martyr" quote in the intro; at least one random website I found claims it is fabricated: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Fabricated_Hadith#The_ink_of_the_scholar_is_more_holy_than_the_blood_of_the_Martyr Can anyone confirm/deny? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.38.199.67 ( talk) 18:23, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
The claim that Al-Jāḥiẓ 'made observations that suggest natural selection' was recently added to the article, echoing earlier claims of Islamic 1sts in this area. The claim is based on a quote from Gary Dargan, but the wording suggested it was a quote from Al-Jāḥiẓ himself. The source used, Gary Dargan, Intelligent Design, Encounter, ABC, is reliable to the extent that it confirms Dugan said this, but the question is whether Dugan's interpretation merits inclusion. As he is not a historian, and the Al-Jahiz talk page includes evidence that Dugan's interpretation is flawed, I believe this quote should not be included. Dialectric ( talk) 00:54, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be absolutely no mention of the astonishing influence the Church of the East and Syriac Orthodox leaders have had in the Golden Age. Without the translations from Greek/Latin to Syriac and then to Arabic by Christian monks ... there would not be a Golden Age at all. There is also no mention of Bukhtishu and other such Christian groups who played a massive role in the Caliphate and the education/spread of the Golden age.
I just was wondering why all of these very important points were never mentioned/ignored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.53.226.250 ( talk) 21:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Here presented only Fatimids and not other islamic states. Qadeer Nil ( talk) 21:53, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The article is clearly one-sided and anti-Islamic OneGuy 20:03, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC) Agreed, Islamic Golden age?, in my history book it's called the ottoman empire Erlyrisa ( talk) 16:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Specifically the statements:
Please provide citation for that. I have sources that state otherwise. e.g. "Golden Age of Persia" by Richard Frye. I see enough mathematicians here to invalidate such a claim: http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Indexes/Arabs.html
That is highly opinionated. An entire book has been written contradicting this:
http://ebs.allbookstores.com/book/074860457X
Futhermore, science IS the foundation of technology. Therefore to say that: "There was a lot of speculation and very little application in technology" is quite an erroneous statement. Without trigonometry, for example, optical technology could never have progressed.-- Zereshk 12:53, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
--As far as i have seen, this is the most cooperative group regarding anything Islam related that I have come upon in Wikipedia. Everything is pretty factual, and people respect other's opinions. Pretty soon this will become a featured article!! MOI 21:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Moses Maimonides was Spanish and not Egyptian as stated in the previous version of the article.-- Vonaurum 07:17, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This page is clearly one-sided favoring Islam. Specifically:
In addition the entire page is badly written and is full of grammatical errors. freestylefrappe 21:41, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
OK. I'm done. Heres what I did:
More generally, if the facts are correct, the article should stand. That doesn't make it one-sided. Anyway, there is a criticism section at the end. m.e. 11:03, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Ladino was not irrelevant. It was the key link between maintaining Sephardic culture after being expelled. Ladino is still an important language to Jews in Argentina, Brazil, and Costa Rica. While it is not necessarily important to the article as a whole it was just as important as translations to or from Hebrew. freestylefrappe 22:27, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
i hope im inserting this answer correctly as its my first time commenting here. Points are only "relevant" or "irrelevant" in a given context, and the point seems to be that no matter how relevant the Ladino language/dialect may be/have been to intra Jewish communication then or now, it remains irrelevant to the passing on into Western Europe of Greek texts through Latin translations. Talmidh2006 16:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
-- There are also the Han Muslims in China. According to beleif a delegation led by Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas was sent to china, and the emporer let them preach in his kingdom, upon being impressed by their great knowledge. MOI 21:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
-- This whole article reads like a giant, biased Islamic pride parade. One section reads, "Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech", but a later section reads: "harsh punishment and prosecution awaiting alleged heretics and Zendiqs, no sane scientist or intellectual would dare express his/her true faith and religious thoughts." Many of the accomplishments contain a grain of truth, but are quickly exaggerated. I have a feeling these are the kinds of things Muslim children are told in Middle Eastern countries to instill pride in their heritage and build confidence in their religion, but it's essentially just an exaggerated list of "Islamic" accomplishments mixed with downplaying anyone else's contributions. Can anyone take seriously sections like: "Muslim polymaths ... had a wide breadth of knowledge in many different fields of religious and secular learning, comparable to the later "Renaissance Men", such as Leonardo da Vinci, of the European Renaissance period. Polymath scholars were so common during the Islamic Golden Age that it was rare to find a scholar who specialized in any single field at the time" -- as if the "Islamic Golden Age" had hundreds if not thousands of Leonardo da Vinci's.
I think my cleanup needs some explanation. I removed the See also section and relocated the links to the introduction and the "Science" section. In addition, I relocated Philosophy-specific information that was under the Science section to Philosophy. freestylefrappe 02:41, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
The article givest the dates 750-1500 CE for the Islamic Golden Age. Where do these dates come from? These numbers are way off the mark. Please see the consult the following academic source: [ [1]] (this is a power-point presentation, please refer to slide 7 of 7). Academic historians believe that the Islamic Golden Age began after 700 CE and ended after 1000 CE, after which the Islamic empire went into a 200 year decine until the Mongol invasions that caused the fall of the Islamic Empire, the loss of the Caliphate, and the destruction of Baghdad on February 10, 1258 CE. It's obviously false that the Islamic Golden Age survived the Mongol sacking of Baghdad in the year 1258 CE, so the dates 750-1500 CE are definitely wrong. 750 CE seems to coincide with the year in which the Ummayad dynasty was replaced by the Abbasid dynasty - this is not a very accurate point of reference for when the Islamic Golden Age began, it actually began somewhat earlier. Now I have no idea where the editors of the article got th year 1500 CE from, but it's wrong and seems more like a nice round number that someone pull out of thin air. -- Zeno of Elea 04:09, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Someone added a sentence to the medicine section, which stated that Muhammad had discovered the virtues of Nigella sativa, which cures everything except death. A little googling established that Muslim doctors had made much use of "black seed" or "black cumin", due to a hadith, or oral tradition, that Muhammad had recommended it. There are many Islamic websites touting the virtues of Nigella and listing various "scientific" studies made of the seed, usually by Muslim scientists.
I deleted the sentence. It might find a place in an Islamic medicine article (is there such a thing?) but it seems out of place in this one. Even non-Muslim historians of medicine agree that superstitions aside (use of Nigella, drinking water made from ink rinsed from prayers and Quranic inscriptions, Hand of Fatima, etc. etc.) Muslim medicine was generally much less drastic and much more successful than European medicine of the time.
There should probably be a link to Academy of Gundishapur in there. A lot of what the Muslims did was built on previous Persian achievements. Zora 09:59, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
If you think about placing it somewhere else, than it should be here Early Muslim medicine. Cheers -- Svest 23:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
I was trying to clean it up based on the original note that you had written up in responce to the quote from "OneGuy" The clean up was done based on the historical studies and keep in line the essence of Wiki's neutrality factor.
--this is funny. Most of these things are just cultural beleifs. For example, there was this beleif about how keeping your nails long was a virtue, and it came from god knows what source. MOI 21:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
An anon added a long and erudite section on mathematics, which seems to have been cribbed from [2]. I removed it. Zora 06:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC) hjk
Since when has Wikipedia allowed such celebrations of revisionism? I suppose anyone with an official-sounding source may come in here and correct it all, though. 209.7.59.172 18:23, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I read the last sentence of the last paragraph of Islamic_Golden_Age#Medicine - and then read Cataract_surgery#History. These two articles are at odds with each other. I vote the last sentence of the last paragraph which states that "Indeed, Muslim doctors were removing cataracts with hollow needles over 1000 years before Westerners dared attempt such a task." is removed unless evidence is available to the contrary. Ttiotsw 20:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The entire section is uncited and it's mostly just anti-Islamic nonsense. To my knowledge, there is no scholarly dispute that the Islamic Golden Age never existed. And if there is, it should be cited. The section mentions the book, Rebirth by Shoja-e-din Shafa. I find this citation to be dubious, as a simple Google search show that the man used to work for Shah Pahlavi and has consistently written controversial works attacking Islam. I've come across disputes over the Islamic Golden Age in the past. Two professors at my college -- one of history and one of philosophy -- told me previously that there is no scholarly dispute over the Golden Age of Islam, one main reason being because of the abundance of Arabic terms which made their way into the English language. In the absence of extraordinary contribution to science, there's no real justification for how so many scholarly terms are of Arabic origin. Robocracy 01:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
AND READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE!!! MOI 21:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
-- As the Critisicm suggests, the empires that were mainly Christian didnt attribute their learning to the Christian Religion. Then again, the Islamic Empire's learning was based upon not only the teachings of scholars of old, but upon Islamic and Quranic teachings as well. For example Ibn Riza, explained that smallpox and measles were different, and how a fever is the bodies way of fighting disease, while the Europeans had beleived that it was because the body had too much blood. Ibn Rushd wrote a medical encyclopedia, in the year 1150. Ibn Sina, born 980 wrote the Canons of Medicine, which had been used in European universities for 500 years. He learned what he knew, from studying hard and visiting the sick. The main similarity between all these is that even though many scholors were from maybe the Ummayud or Abbasid dynasty, they were all connected by the Islamic Empire. Because of the encouragement of learning in Islam, this Empire funded large sums of money towards Learning institutions. [ [4]] Just a bit of evidence :) MOI 21:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Who dates the "Golden Age" to 622, the date of the Hijra? No scientific or artistic advances date from this period, or to that of the Rashidun. Indeed, the achievements mentioned in this article do not begin until after the fall of the Umayyads. A better title might be, "Persia Recovers." Proabivouac 04:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The article currently states, "Much of this learning and development can be linked to geography. Even prior to Islam's presence, the city of Mecca served as a center of trade in Arabia and the Islamic prophet Muhammad was a merchant." I'd be curious to learn who said this. It's quite ridiculous, as Mecca has never been a center of scientific innovation. Proabivouac 06:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
This article does not properly differenciate between Arabs and Muslims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.158.97 ( talk) 19:37, August 24, 2007 (UTC)
This section doesnt even consider the European interventions (such as the reconquista, the crusades], European renaissance or the discovery of new sea routes through Africa which caused trade through the middle east to decline. Factors such as these should atleast be considered dont you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.176.204.55 ( talk) 17:02, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
Or maybe Imam Hamid al-Ghazali's (1058-1111) claim that mathematics was the work of the devil played a role. To quote the section on Al-Ghazali: "one of his major works, The Incoherence of the Philosophers, changed the course of Islamic thought, shifting it away from the influence of ancient Greek and Hellenistic philosophy, and towards cause-and-effect that were determined by Allah or intermediate angels.". He advocated "the belief that all causal events and interactions are not the product of material conjunctions but rather the immediate and present will of God."
I would argue tha there was no decline prior to 1924 - economic life by all quantative measures was on the rise, industrialisation was happening at a repid pace, political thought was complex and sophisticated, sciences were being adopted at an increasing pace. I think "decline theory" is part of revisioninst history - the real decline occured with dismemberment of the Ottoman Caliphate into natinal states, destroying trade networks, ripping the fabric of society apart, appointment of new and inexperienced rulers in new states that implemented misguided policies for decades. Worth considering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.129.18 ( talk) 23:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Near the end of the section commerce there are the sentences
These were Jewish, not Muslim, innovations, as can be seen by the reference above to a synagogue. In particular it was the Radhanite Jews, important merchants from the 8th century to the 11th century, who laid the foundations for the modern economic system (see Radhanites, Radhanite Jews).
To me this sounds like an insertion by someone who would like to make his views heard, not like a neutral description of a dispute. Additionally, there are no references cited to show that a dispute exists. I think the sentences should be removed or, if there is real dispute about the source of the innovations, reworded into a more neutral way.
194.37.73.215 13:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
This article refers to a time period, but only discusses certain aspects of it. Arrow740 05:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
What is this supposed to mean? Arrow740 06:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
It would be great if you had a map showing where the Muslim world was during this age. -- Mattisse 17:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
The whole article springs in the face with its religiocentrism (for the lack of a better word). The obsession to attribute the title 'father of xyz' is only the most conspicuous feature. Much worse is that the article is abuzz with 'creative quoting' and cleverly interpreting sources. Is there on Wikipedia a tag to identify systematically biased articles as such? High time. This article cannot remain here, in its present form and intention it flies in the face of everything Wikipedia stands for. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 04:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Robert Briffault did indeed state that the Arabs did not contribute many individual scientific discoveries (which was a fairly common view in the early 20th century) but this is not relevant to the scientific method. As far as the scientific method is concerned, he stated:
"The debt of our science to that of the Arabs does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories; science owes a great deal more to Arab culture, it owes its existence. The ancient world was, as we saw, pre-scientific."
"What we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry, of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and those methods were introduced into the European world by the Arabs."
Another source I cited, Rosanna Gorini, states:
"According to the majority of the historians al-Haytham was the pioneer of the modern scientific method."
As far as I know, there are only a minority of modern scholars who disagree with the scientific method being developed in the medieval Muslim world.
As for WP:SYN, it says that using two or more different sources to advance a particular position is original research. I was using the same single source (in this case, Adam Lucas).
Regards, Jagged 85 ( talk) 11:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree certain aspects of the page are worded in a POV way. However, I disagree with some of the assessments made here. The purpose of every Wikipedia page is not to POV-mine and neutralize any statement that you find controversial with a POV text. Whether or not you like it, many of these things did happen. However, certain terms (as already mentioned, "father of..") are very over-the-top phrases that should be avoided. Certain things (e.g. capitalism) are a little bit misleading. It would be fair to say a proto-capitalistic system was cultivated by the Muslims, but the capitalistic systems that are used today do not owe their origins to Islam, but rather, to the guilds of Europe. That doesn't mean these systems of economy shouldn't be mentioned, it just means they shouldn't be given undue weight. As for WP:SYN, I do not think that applies here. It is acceptable to use multiple sources in order to gather information about the Islamic Golden Age. He is not using it to advance a distinctly unique position. The Islamic Golden Age is not someone's personal OR; it is a well documented event in history. Similarly, Mazdak created an ultra-communalistic religion that showed many parallels to communism; that does not, however, mean Mazdak was the direct influence over communism as we know it today. The Mazdak article does a very good job at explaining how the Mazdak system was still distinctly different; perhaps this article could do the same with respect to capitalism, as an example. I disagree with some of these assessments that we need certain different points of view in this article; I think we should be more concerned with what Muslims actually did during this time period, rather than worrying about what someone has to say about it. Informative articles are ideal; critique articles are not, particularly because they have a tendency to be biased. Let's focus on the elucidating the facts. While it would be acceptable to call this an "Islamic" Golden Age, I do not think labelling specific individuals as "Muslim" scholars is necessarily fair. It would be nonsense to label Galileo, for example, as a "Christian" scientist, even if he was Christian. Avicenna, for example, disagreed with the concept of resurrection. Al-Razi and Omar Khayyam were both opposed to organized religions. - Rosywounds ( talk) 22:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
In response to the questions you've raised:
Regards, Jagged 85 ( talk) 18:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
PS: I checked Ahmad Y Hassan and Donald Routledge Hill (1986), Islamic Technology: An Illustrated History, p. 282, Cambridge University Press. It is clearly quoted out of context. Both authors do not maintain at all that Muslims sparked the Scientific Revolution as we know it. They just want to say that Islam was the driving force behind the "Muslim Scientific revolution" - which is not to be confused with modern science. Regards Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 02:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
The reference for this article comes from a weak source, describing some highly dubious practices, and the reference to Ibn-Nafis purportedly radical challenge to Galen in the article is scanty and unreferenced to his writings. This reference may be better: S. A. Al-Dabbagh (1978). "Ibn Al-Nafis and the pulmonary circulation", The Lancet 1, p. 1148, though I have not yet been able to access it.
Reference 94 which may be found here [5], refers to Ibn Nafis' critique of Ibn Sina's views on the porosity of the intraventricular septum (per Galen), but again lacks detail and looks revisionist in character - it would be helpful to have a better direct reference to Ibn Nafis actual writing in Sharh Tashrih Al Qanun. Ebed-melech ( talk) 19:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
This article reads too much like a laundry list of Islamic accomplishments. The blockquotes don't help that much either. As for the sources used (since NPOV concerns have been raised by more competent editors than I), I can't personally weigh in since I'm not qualified enough but there have been cases where the main contributor to this article has grossly misused or misinterpreted sources in other articles, attributing imagined conclusions to them (that's not an attack of sorts, rather a call to accurate representation of the sources).
In any case, since this article is being edited so heavily, something perhaps could be done regarding the first two concerns (lists, blockquotes) before its further expansion, where it'll be even harder to bring it to a more readable state. 3rdAlcove ( talk) 22:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I deleted from the article because
I can understand the hysteria that some people may have if legitimate contributions from Islamic soceities are acknowledged. But teh critisicm section was really pathetic.
Suigeneris ( talk) 15:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Ctesiphon7 ( talk) 12:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
(UTC)kimberly bussey said 'this is a rubbish article anyway so i dont see the point!!
I thought it was all about scientific and historical facts and not about losing and winning! and did not expect more offending comments, either. At any rate, A more comprehensive criticism will be added in due time with crisp citations. And last but not least, Shoja-edin-Shafa is not an obscure Iranian scholar. He will definitely be cited more thoroughly. Until then, this article more than deserves to be ornated by that POV tag. Ctesiphon7 ( talk) 13:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Ctesiphon7 ( talk) 09:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Ctesiphon7 ( talk) 07:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
If I am partial and uninformed in this respect, then a host of medieval along with a myriad of contemporary historians are so, since I am merely reflecting their comments verbatim. Ctesiphon7 ( talk) 10:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I was curious about the "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the Martyr" quote in the intro; at least one random website I found claims it is fabricated: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Fabricated_Hadith#The_ink_of_the_scholar_is_more_holy_than_the_blood_of_the_Martyr Can anyone confirm/deny? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.38.199.67 ( talk) 18:23, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
The claim that Al-Jāḥiẓ 'made observations that suggest natural selection' was recently added to the article, echoing earlier claims of Islamic 1sts in this area. The claim is based on a quote from Gary Dargan, but the wording suggested it was a quote from Al-Jāḥiẓ himself. The source used, Gary Dargan, Intelligent Design, Encounter, ABC, is reliable to the extent that it confirms Dugan said this, but the question is whether Dugan's interpretation merits inclusion. As he is not a historian, and the Al-Jahiz talk page includes evidence that Dugan's interpretation is flawed, I believe this quote should not be included. Dialectric ( talk) 00:54, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be absolutely no mention of the astonishing influence the Church of the East and Syriac Orthodox leaders have had in the Golden Age. Without the translations from Greek/Latin to Syriac and then to Arabic by Christian monks ... there would not be a Golden Age at all. There is also no mention of Bukhtishu and other such Christian groups who played a massive role in the Caliphate and the education/spread of the Golden age.
I just was wondering why all of these very important points were never mentioned/ignored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.53.226.250 ( talk) 21:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Here presented only Fatimids and not other islamic states. Qadeer Nil ( talk) 21:53, 26 September 2013 (UTC)