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I know Wikipedia needs reliable sources so I'm not going to edit the page as I don't know any, and judging by the [citation needed] at many parts, neither does anyone else... However, I know for a fact that there are absolutely many more than 50,000-60,000 Muslims in Finland. Another inaccuracy is the time that the first Muslims arrived in Finland. What the page currently refers to is the mass immigration of Muslim-majority ethnic groups to Finland's modern borders, and that is an understandable mistake, however even that is inaccurate as there were already relatively many Tatars since the early 13th century when they fled from the Mongols; this is also an understandable mistake because they were apparently not explicitly called Tatars. Also remember that the Mongol Empire expanded to parts of what is now Karelia and other western parts of Russia, where some ethnic Finns lived at that time, and this influenced some to convert to Islam. It isn't widely remembered or even recognised that this happened because of four reasons: the Swedish elite of Finland that came from the west shortly before and continued to come at the same time with the Tatars and Mongols, did not approve of Islam. The Finnish and Karelian Muslims were also shunned by both the Christian and paganistic/shamanistic Finns and Karelians, so many of them lived in separate villages. The third reason is the second world war, when the Finnish army brought concentration camps in Karelia many Muslims were camped as well; some because "they side with Russia" and others because they refused to participate in the war. The fourth reason is maybe the most important, that all the mosques in Karelia were also demolished. Of course the government won't admit they persecuted for their religion, they just say they sided with Russia and get away with it... I'm sure records of the persecutions were kept but they are probably destroyed or lost in bottomless archives no one will find in decades, same way it has happened already before with other persecutions and the executions of civilians etc.
It isn't my intention to make Finland sound like an Islamophobic country, I'm a Muslim myself and have had less of that than I have had in other countries on vacations, but saying Finland has only had Muslims since recently is misleading and inaccurate. The reason there has to be more than 50,000-60,000 is that it is only the official statistic of people who are registered as Muslims, in addition it is only the number of such officially registered Sunni Muslims when the largest official organisations are Sunni. There also are Muslims that converted straight from paganism/shamanism that the Swedish Christian elite never recognised and most of these remain even in this day as Christian on paper, when the parents either baptise their kids to fit in. Increasingly more often people are officially "irreligious", many who convert to Islam from Christianity simply resign from the church and are officially atheists, especially Shites. I was always a Shite, so are my parents, etc. but all without religion on paper, there is nothing to gain from registering the religion when there isn't even a proper way to do it. In polls that ask what religion you are, they most often do not have Islam as even an option or they have Sunnism by default, too. There are small Muslim-majority towns, whose ancestors converted to Islam from paganism/shamanism and they still incorporate some elements of the paganistic/shamanistic past religion, so they are thus not recognised as Muslims by officials.
Consider all that and count the statistics that there are more people that believe in God than there are people who would proportionally believe, meaning some atheists believe in God and of course that isn't true, and there must be at least 200,000 Muslims. This number also grows because of immigration and refugees, and even though people say it's racist to say that Somali immigrants have kids at the rabbit's pace, it's true. Some other Africans do too, there are even starting to be actual black ghettos in some parts of Helsinki, and most are Muslims. Then, think of how many white Finnish women marry black Muslim men and become automatically converted. AliHautala ( talk) 10:34, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
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I would argue that the Terrorism and radicalisation section does not belong in this article, because it implies (in violation of neutrality) that these elements are a natural part of Islam. There is not a terrorism section in Christianity in the United States even though Christian-motivated terrorism is a thing, nor is there even a terrorism section in Islam in the United States, because terrorism is not an inherent part of Islam. We could create a section in Islamic terrorism regarding terrorist acts in Finland, but we should not have the section here.
I am pinging several users who have recently been involved in either removing or restoring this content to enter this discussion:
-- WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 15:34, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Should the Islam in Finland#Terrorism and radicalisation section be retained? WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 12:33, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
Please refer to the #Terrorism and radicalisation section above regarding the deletion or retention of this section. Given the failure of two editors ( Ifnord and myself, WikiDan61), I am requesting input from the wider community. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 12:33, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
As mentioned above, we need to see how weight is given to "terrorism" among sources that cover the topic of "Islam in Finland" broadly. Below is a list of sources (not yet complete) that cover the topic relatively broadly, along with my findings. VR talk 15:53, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Source | Estimated % coverage to radicalization and terrorism | Comments |
---|---|---|
Islam Outside the Arab World, chapter "The Nordic Countries", Routledge | ~0% | This 33 page chapter gives a comprehensive coverage of Muslims in Finland, including demographics, history, Islamic organizations, Shi'ites, Sufis, Ahmadiyya, mosque issues, Islamic schools, Quran translations, everyday life for Muslims, circumcision and the Rushdie affair. But I didn't any subchapter on terrorism, nor even any matches for the word "terror" when searching this chapter. |
Historical Dictionary of Finland, entry called "Islam", Rowman | 14% | This 2-page, 7 paragraph entry has 1 para on Islamophobia in Finland and 1 on how 2017 Turku attack fanned Islamophobia, so 1/7=14% |
Islam in the Nordic and Baltic countries, chapter on "Finland" Routledge | ? | Not yet reviewed this book. |
Muslims at the margins of Europe : Finland, Greece, Ireland and Portugal, BRILL | ? | Not yet reviewed this book. |
Yearbook of Muslims in Europe Vol 1, "Finland" entry, BRILL | 0% | This is an annual series covering each year. This volume has around 16 subchapters: Muslim populations, Islam and the State, Muslim organizations, Mosques, Children's education, Higher education, Burial, Chaplaincy in State institutions, Religious festivals, Halal food, Dress code, Publications and media, Family law, Intereligious relations, Public opinion and debate, Major cultural events (can see the list
here). So its pretty broad coverage.
I found nothing on terrorism in this volume. |
Yearbook of Muslims in Europe Vol 2-6, "Finland" entry, BRILL | ~0% | Volumes 2-6 (covering 2009-2013) have similar chapter structure as vol 1. I looked at volumes 2, 3 and 6 and found nothing on terrorism in these volumes. |
Yearbook of Muslims in Europe Vol 7, "Finland" entry, BRILL | 13% | This volume has a new format of subchapters: Introduction, Public Debates, Transnational Links, Law and Domestic Politics, Activities and Initiatives of Main Muslim Organisations, Demographics and Statistics, Main Muslim Organisations, covered over 27 pages. I count 3.5 pages devoted to terrorism and radicalization (0.5 page in Introduction, 1 page in Public Debates, 2 pages in Transnational Links). |
Yearbook of Muslims in Europe Vol 8-13, "Finland" entry, BRILL | ?% | Not yet reviewed these. |
I will add more sources as I go through them. Happy to answer any questions about my analysis. VR talk 15:53, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
The work of VR shows that it's hard to find reliable secondary sources that show the notoriety of the subject specific to Finland. The same applies to the actual content of the section. For example, one of the source is a news media (Reuters) article that reports a single isolated event. Similarly, the sentence "... 70 individuals had left Finland to enter the conflict zone and the majority joined jihadist groups in Syria and Iraq." is sourced in an article of The International Centre for Counter-Terrorism (ICCT). This source shows the notoriety of the overall subject of radicalisation and of recruitment of foreign fighters in Europe, but not the notoriety of the subject in Finland. The last and longest paragraph only has sources in Swedish. So, I cannot judge the sources, but I suspect that they are also not secondary sources that show the notoriety of the subject in Finland. The point is that the purpose of sources is not only to verify that the individual statements are correct, but also to show the notoriety of the subject that is created when we combine these statements into a section. These sources are missing. By combining these separate statements into a section, without sources showing the notoriety of the subject as a whole in Finland, there is some form of original research being done here. It may be a very good original research, but not at its place in this Wikipedia article. Dominic Mayers ( talk) 17:22, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
Note personal added: I am personally concerned about radicalisation and recruitment by Islamic groups. I believe we should not be naive about this issue. So, I am very sympathetic to the point of view being expressed in this section. My concern is only that this Wikipedia article is not the place for this information campaign. Dominic Mayers ( talk) 17:32, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
A related point is that the article cites the Pew Research Center that estimates the population of Muslim to 2.7% in Finland. However, the official statistics from Finland says that it's below 1% and when I use the data from Yearbook of Muslims in Europe, Vol. 2 the Muslim population in Finland is around 40,000, which is also below 1%. It shows that we need to attribute points of view. I mean, if even quantitative data can be biased, then we need to attribute points of view. The article does not respect WP:NPOV on this respect. Dominic Mayers ( talk) 18:24, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
I am only saying that pertinence to the subject is a kind of notability in the context of the subject (but I agree that the term notability is not usual in the context of a specific content). It's important to use sources to show the pertinence of a section in an article. I used the term secondary sources, but I meant sources that take some distance from the specificity of the content and show it's pertinence to the subject, which is not terrorism and radicalisation, but Islam in Finland. It will be meaningful to have some sources (I mean articles or chapters in book) that do not focus on terrorism and radicalisation, but are about Islam or Finland, and mention radicalisation and terrorism. Currently, the section is building a case, perhaps a well sourced and valid case, but nevertheless a form of original research (original in respect to the subject), by combining contents that are taken from sources that are not centred on the subject. They are centred on a specific event or on radicalisation and terrorism and under this other topic mention Islam or Finland. What is needed is the opposite order: sources that are centred on Islam or Finland (ideally both) and under this topic mention radicalisation and terrorism. To do the devil's advocate against my case, I could say that "it's obvious that radicalisation and terrorism is pertinent and, thus, as long as it is verifiable, it can be included as a section in the article". However, let's keep in mind that trying to include a content can as much be POV pushing as trying to exclude it. In both cases, one can argue that there is POV pushing. It is in that context that I say that relying on sources to show the notability within the subject, which is not terrorism and radicalisation, is meaningful. It makes it more objective. Dominic Mayers ( talk) 14:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
I suggest to get input from the NPOV noticeboard regarding the question of whether this article ( Islam in Finland) should include the subject Islamic terrorism and, if yes, what weight should be given to it and how to present it in a neutral manner? We especially want input about the principle of using reliable sources centred on the subject of this article, not sources centred on terrorism or radicalization, to answer these questions. Generally speaking, I suggest that we look for objective principles like this one instead of relying on mere opinions. There is backlog, so it might take some times before we get some input, but it's worth it. Dominic Mayers ( talk) 14:36, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
Note: moved from
this discussion from my talk page.
A Thousand Words (
talk) 07:31, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
I see you
added content with
this source. Can you explain to me if this is a reliable source? The picture in that source looks really problematic, like it is out of some kind of Islamophobic extremist blog.
VR
talk 06:31, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
“Finland is an open, international country that is rich linguistically and culturally, and where basic rights belong equally to everyone... Finnish justice gives equal protection to everyone, regardless of skin colour, religion, gender, culture or other background,” ... “There is no room in Finland for Sharia law or other efforts towards a parallel society,”so Ålands Nyheter elaborates more but is reliable on the main content YLE also has reported. Using a search engine to verify Hääkänen quote didn't take long. A Thousand Words ( talk) 20:35, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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I know Wikipedia needs reliable sources so I'm not going to edit the page as I don't know any, and judging by the [citation needed] at many parts, neither does anyone else... However, I know for a fact that there are absolutely many more than 50,000-60,000 Muslims in Finland. Another inaccuracy is the time that the first Muslims arrived in Finland. What the page currently refers to is the mass immigration of Muslim-majority ethnic groups to Finland's modern borders, and that is an understandable mistake, however even that is inaccurate as there were already relatively many Tatars since the early 13th century when they fled from the Mongols; this is also an understandable mistake because they were apparently not explicitly called Tatars. Also remember that the Mongol Empire expanded to parts of what is now Karelia and other western parts of Russia, where some ethnic Finns lived at that time, and this influenced some to convert to Islam. It isn't widely remembered or even recognised that this happened because of four reasons: the Swedish elite of Finland that came from the west shortly before and continued to come at the same time with the Tatars and Mongols, did not approve of Islam. The Finnish and Karelian Muslims were also shunned by both the Christian and paganistic/shamanistic Finns and Karelians, so many of them lived in separate villages. The third reason is the second world war, when the Finnish army brought concentration camps in Karelia many Muslims were camped as well; some because "they side with Russia" and others because they refused to participate in the war. The fourth reason is maybe the most important, that all the mosques in Karelia were also demolished. Of course the government won't admit they persecuted for their religion, they just say they sided with Russia and get away with it... I'm sure records of the persecutions were kept but they are probably destroyed or lost in bottomless archives no one will find in decades, same way it has happened already before with other persecutions and the executions of civilians etc.
It isn't my intention to make Finland sound like an Islamophobic country, I'm a Muslim myself and have had less of that than I have had in other countries on vacations, but saying Finland has only had Muslims since recently is misleading and inaccurate. The reason there has to be more than 50,000-60,000 is that it is only the official statistic of people who are registered as Muslims, in addition it is only the number of such officially registered Sunni Muslims when the largest official organisations are Sunni. There also are Muslims that converted straight from paganism/shamanism that the Swedish Christian elite never recognised and most of these remain even in this day as Christian on paper, when the parents either baptise their kids to fit in. Increasingly more often people are officially "irreligious", many who convert to Islam from Christianity simply resign from the church and are officially atheists, especially Shites. I was always a Shite, so are my parents, etc. but all without religion on paper, there is nothing to gain from registering the religion when there isn't even a proper way to do it. In polls that ask what religion you are, they most often do not have Islam as even an option or they have Sunnism by default, too. There are small Muslim-majority towns, whose ancestors converted to Islam from paganism/shamanism and they still incorporate some elements of the paganistic/shamanistic past religion, so they are thus not recognised as Muslims by officials.
Consider all that and count the statistics that there are more people that believe in God than there are people who would proportionally believe, meaning some atheists believe in God and of course that isn't true, and there must be at least 200,000 Muslims. This number also grows because of immigration and refugees, and even though people say it's racist to say that Somali immigrants have kids at the rabbit's pace, it's true. Some other Africans do too, there are even starting to be actual black ghettos in some parts of Helsinki, and most are Muslims. Then, think of how many white Finnish women marry black Muslim men and become automatically converted. AliHautala ( talk) 10:34, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
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I would argue that the Terrorism and radicalisation section does not belong in this article, because it implies (in violation of neutrality) that these elements are a natural part of Islam. There is not a terrorism section in Christianity in the United States even though Christian-motivated terrorism is a thing, nor is there even a terrorism section in Islam in the United States, because terrorism is not an inherent part of Islam. We could create a section in Islamic terrorism regarding terrorist acts in Finland, but we should not have the section here.
I am pinging several users who have recently been involved in either removing or restoring this content to enter this discussion:
-- WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 15:34, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Should the Islam in Finland#Terrorism and radicalisation section be retained? WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 12:33, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
Please refer to the #Terrorism and radicalisation section above regarding the deletion or retention of this section. Given the failure of two editors ( Ifnord and myself, WikiDan61), I am requesting input from the wider community. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 12:33, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
As mentioned above, we need to see how weight is given to "terrorism" among sources that cover the topic of "Islam in Finland" broadly. Below is a list of sources (not yet complete) that cover the topic relatively broadly, along with my findings. VR talk 15:53, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Source | Estimated % coverage to radicalization and terrorism | Comments |
---|---|---|
Islam Outside the Arab World, chapter "The Nordic Countries", Routledge | ~0% | This 33 page chapter gives a comprehensive coverage of Muslims in Finland, including demographics, history, Islamic organizations, Shi'ites, Sufis, Ahmadiyya, mosque issues, Islamic schools, Quran translations, everyday life for Muslims, circumcision and the Rushdie affair. But I didn't any subchapter on terrorism, nor even any matches for the word "terror" when searching this chapter. |
Historical Dictionary of Finland, entry called "Islam", Rowman | 14% | This 2-page, 7 paragraph entry has 1 para on Islamophobia in Finland and 1 on how 2017 Turku attack fanned Islamophobia, so 1/7=14% |
Islam in the Nordic and Baltic countries, chapter on "Finland" Routledge | ? | Not yet reviewed this book. |
Muslims at the margins of Europe : Finland, Greece, Ireland and Portugal, BRILL | ? | Not yet reviewed this book. |
Yearbook of Muslims in Europe Vol 1, "Finland" entry, BRILL | 0% | This is an annual series covering each year. This volume has around 16 subchapters: Muslim populations, Islam and the State, Muslim organizations, Mosques, Children's education, Higher education, Burial, Chaplaincy in State institutions, Religious festivals, Halal food, Dress code, Publications and media, Family law, Intereligious relations, Public opinion and debate, Major cultural events (can see the list
here). So its pretty broad coverage.
I found nothing on terrorism in this volume. |
Yearbook of Muslims in Europe Vol 2-6, "Finland" entry, BRILL | ~0% | Volumes 2-6 (covering 2009-2013) have similar chapter structure as vol 1. I looked at volumes 2, 3 and 6 and found nothing on terrorism in these volumes. |
Yearbook of Muslims in Europe Vol 7, "Finland" entry, BRILL | 13% | This volume has a new format of subchapters: Introduction, Public Debates, Transnational Links, Law and Domestic Politics, Activities and Initiatives of Main Muslim Organisations, Demographics and Statistics, Main Muslim Organisations, covered over 27 pages. I count 3.5 pages devoted to terrorism and radicalization (0.5 page in Introduction, 1 page in Public Debates, 2 pages in Transnational Links). |
Yearbook of Muslims in Europe Vol 8-13, "Finland" entry, BRILL | ?% | Not yet reviewed these. |
I will add more sources as I go through them. Happy to answer any questions about my analysis. VR talk 15:53, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
The work of VR shows that it's hard to find reliable secondary sources that show the notoriety of the subject specific to Finland. The same applies to the actual content of the section. For example, one of the source is a news media (Reuters) article that reports a single isolated event. Similarly, the sentence "... 70 individuals had left Finland to enter the conflict zone and the majority joined jihadist groups in Syria and Iraq." is sourced in an article of The International Centre for Counter-Terrorism (ICCT). This source shows the notoriety of the overall subject of radicalisation and of recruitment of foreign fighters in Europe, but not the notoriety of the subject in Finland. The last and longest paragraph only has sources in Swedish. So, I cannot judge the sources, but I suspect that they are also not secondary sources that show the notoriety of the subject in Finland. The point is that the purpose of sources is not only to verify that the individual statements are correct, but also to show the notoriety of the subject that is created when we combine these statements into a section. These sources are missing. By combining these separate statements into a section, without sources showing the notoriety of the subject as a whole in Finland, there is some form of original research being done here. It may be a very good original research, but not at its place in this Wikipedia article. Dominic Mayers ( talk) 17:22, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
Note personal added: I am personally concerned about radicalisation and recruitment by Islamic groups. I believe we should not be naive about this issue. So, I am very sympathetic to the point of view being expressed in this section. My concern is only that this Wikipedia article is not the place for this information campaign. Dominic Mayers ( talk) 17:32, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
A related point is that the article cites the Pew Research Center that estimates the population of Muslim to 2.7% in Finland. However, the official statistics from Finland says that it's below 1% and when I use the data from Yearbook of Muslims in Europe, Vol. 2 the Muslim population in Finland is around 40,000, which is also below 1%. It shows that we need to attribute points of view. I mean, if even quantitative data can be biased, then we need to attribute points of view. The article does not respect WP:NPOV on this respect. Dominic Mayers ( talk) 18:24, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
I am only saying that pertinence to the subject is a kind of notability in the context of the subject (but I agree that the term notability is not usual in the context of a specific content). It's important to use sources to show the pertinence of a section in an article. I used the term secondary sources, but I meant sources that take some distance from the specificity of the content and show it's pertinence to the subject, which is not terrorism and radicalisation, but Islam in Finland. It will be meaningful to have some sources (I mean articles or chapters in book) that do not focus on terrorism and radicalisation, but are about Islam or Finland, and mention radicalisation and terrorism. Currently, the section is building a case, perhaps a well sourced and valid case, but nevertheless a form of original research (original in respect to the subject), by combining contents that are taken from sources that are not centred on the subject. They are centred on a specific event or on radicalisation and terrorism and under this other topic mention Islam or Finland. What is needed is the opposite order: sources that are centred on Islam or Finland (ideally both) and under this topic mention radicalisation and terrorism. To do the devil's advocate against my case, I could say that "it's obvious that radicalisation and terrorism is pertinent and, thus, as long as it is verifiable, it can be included as a section in the article". However, let's keep in mind that trying to include a content can as much be POV pushing as trying to exclude it. In both cases, one can argue that there is POV pushing. It is in that context that I say that relying on sources to show the notability within the subject, which is not terrorism and radicalisation, is meaningful. It makes it more objective. Dominic Mayers ( talk) 14:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
I suggest to get input from the NPOV noticeboard regarding the question of whether this article ( Islam in Finland) should include the subject Islamic terrorism and, if yes, what weight should be given to it and how to present it in a neutral manner? We especially want input about the principle of using reliable sources centred on the subject of this article, not sources centred on terrorism or radicalization, to answer these questions. Generally speaking, I suggest that we look for objective principles like this one instead of relying on mere opinions. There is backlog, so it might take some times before we get some input, but it's worth it. Dominic Mayers ( talk) 14:36, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
Note: moved from
this discussion from my talk page.
A Thousand Words (
talk) 07:31, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
I see you
added content with
this source. Can you explain to me if this is a reliable source? The picture in that source looks really problematic, like it is out of some kind of Islamophobic extremist blog.
VR
talk 06:31, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
“Finland is an open, international country that is rich linguistically and culturally, and where basic rights belong equally to everyone... Finnish justice gives equal protection to everyone, regardless of skin colour, religion, gender, culture or other background,” ... “There is no room in Finland for Sharia law or other efforts towards a parallel society,”so Ålands Nyheter elaborates more but is reliable on the main content YLE also has reported. Using a search engine to verify Hääkänen quote didn't take long. A Thousand Words ( talk) 20:35, 2 December 2021 (UTC)