This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
I don't think that the "fastest growing" claim could be sustained. If you're just talking about rates, and not size, then perhaps Pastafarianism is the fastest growing, since it's come out of nowhere in the past few weeks. It's hard to tell, since in my experience doing fieldwork on religious affiliation in Tonga, believers have an enormous capacity for deluding themselves and their superiors. They'll report as "members" people who might have attended one meeting out of curiousity, as well as refusing to subtract for members who have left. Believers tend to take being "the fastest growing" as proof that they are the divinely ordained TRUE religion, and they'll torture statistics to prove it. Let's report (later, not in the first para) on census estimates, and leave out the superlatives. Zora 06:59, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
What the hell is this link doing there? Apart from being racist and offensive ("A Muslim takeover of Western Europe" no less) it's conclusions arrived at are frankly bizarre. Note how it states "Although the Muslim birth rate today is the world’s second highest (after sub-Saharan Africa)" - What the hell does that mean? What about the Muslims in Sub Saharan Africa, which pool do they belong to? His reference is the UN, but nowhere on the UN's United Nations Population Information Network site can i find any reference to the "Muslim World", nor here at the United Nations Publications Catalogue which leads me to suspect this was a calculation he made by heimself, in which case I'd like to know where the hell it came from, what countries did he include, and which did he ditch?-- Irishpunktom\ talk 20:28, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
According to this article, "The majority of of Albanians are secular / atheist in orientation and most of the remaining Muslim population adheres to a hedonistic sect of Islam based on a Sufi order", yet according to Islam in Albania, "Bektashis were estimated to represent approximately 20% of the country's Muslim population before 1967".. what gives?
An editor named Jbull "corrected" the Islam article to read that the Muslims conquered Syria and Jerusalem in the eleventh century. Um, dude, you're only four centuries off. Both subdued by Umar, the second caliph, in 636 and 637 CE. Sheesh! Zora 18:49, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone, sometime, added some material to the opening para of the Qur'an section. Some of it was merely repeated facts given further along in the section (leading me to believe it might have been a newbie editor, editing before he'd finished reading the article) and one assertion, that currently 9 million Muslims have memorized the whole Qur'an in Arabic, strikes me as probably false and certainly unprovable. So I trimmed away. Nothing was added. Zora 09:46, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
The new material is just shoveled into the opening para as a breathless torrent of "stuff that makes me feel good as a Muslim". It does not WORK with the rest of the section. As a non-Muslim editor who is trying to remain NPOV, I protest. I am going to rewrite and put the hafiz material into its own section LATER in the article. Zora 21:04, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Can we cut the spin and include some straight facts about Islam and other religions ie the de facto policies of Islamic countries towards other religions. I know it sounds so nice and PC to generalize that Islamic countries are tolerant of other faiths but certainly there is ample evidence on the news wires nearly every day that this may not be an entirely correct assessment. [1] User:Kyodai 05:27, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
There's been so much churn in this article since it was unlocked that things just slip right past me. I check the latest edits and the latest diffs, and don't read the whole article -- which means that I miss all sorts of sub-standard prose.
We fought through the #$%#$@% Islam and other religions section sentence by sentence. I thought it was OK by all; then a few editors started adding stuff at the end -- layered strata of Islam is bloodthirsty, no it isn't, yes it is. No mention on the talk page. I don't know quite when all that was added, and it would be a major project to find out. So I just removed it.
Aside from wishing that the Islamists wouldn't blow up things for the sake of the people and things they blow up, I wish they wouldn't blow up things so that this article can get a rest! After every incident, we get another wave of vandalism and bigotry. Yeah, sure, that'll show those Islamists! I'll go vandalize the Islam article on Wikipedia! Zora 05:32, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I believe that those kind of discussions here have never changed, neither in nature nor in any other aspect. There's no respect, no gentle approach to discuss matters in this area. It seems as if it is a ground 0.
Yes, too many changes of course as in any other article in WP. However, big and nonesense changes are well spotted by all editors, most of the time are agreed or disagreed between the same editors. The problem here, as I hear, are not the changes but the definitions and the expressions used to define those who make those changes. I hear that there are Islamists messing around and blowing up stuff indeed! So do you mean anyone doing so is an extremist, maybe a terrorist?
I expect, as a reader, to find out about principles of Islam in this article. This article is about Islam and not Muslims. I hope that makes a big difference. There's an article about Muslims.
Another issue is that most of the editors, including myself, have only very little knowledge compared with academics who have or had spent their entire life to search the subject! We are nothing but keep teaching eachother here, as in school, w/ uncivilized manners most of the time, how to deal w/ the situation. I am wondering how come we should include in the article things like Islam is evil or Islam is the best!!! The article should be academic and never political or ideological. Why? Because, for political and ideological issues we have dedicated articles. Easy... In How stuff works, we don't say cars are polluting the environment, we just simply mention how cars work! For pollution issues, you'd surely find them in How cars pollute the invironment article. Cheers -- Svest 02:09, September 10, 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
ZoE, I hope you do understand well that if you agree about keeping "though deficient by modern standards" sentence than you should agree that there are thousands of articles in WP that the sentance must be inserted somewhere in every article! Say The persians formed a developped society ruled by law at the times of Hamurabi, though deficient by modern standards in terms of democracy and human rights. Say Greeks were the first to introduce the concept of democracy, though deficient by modern standards in terms of democracy and human rights... -- Svest 02:31, September 10, 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
KEY here is simply this: When the true offical, religious leaders in the Arab/Islamic world start standing up and condeming what is being done in the name of Islam then I will start to change my views on how horrible a religion, Islam is. As long as these true religious leaders are teaching and following the whole counsel of the Qu'ran which DOES say death the the infidel (which is all the world outside of Islam), then this religion is a hateful one and a threat to the whole civilized world. 69.242.48.222AJD, Oct 6, 2005
We have a new editor, a pious Muslim named Courageous who has written a new version of the Muslim article. It expounds his views of who the real Muslims are, and drops the few lines of material relating to the use of the term "Musselman" for Jewish holocaust victims. He doesn't think "Zionists" should be mentioned in an Islamic article. He seems to be prepared to play revert war to get his version in place. I left a message on his talk page, to which he replied that I was an infidel, and he was commanded by the Qur'an not to listen to me.
I'd appreciate if some of the sane Muslim editors could try talking to him -- and monitoring the Muslim article for any necessary reverts. Zora 21:24, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
-- The Brain 11:45, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
This section was blanked... I think I re-added everything.... I didn't see a reason... was it just unfixed vandalism or what? gren グレン 08:51, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
For some unknown reasons , the picture of dome of rock is on the top . I think at that position , the best option will be to use a picture of Kaaba , rather than dome of rock , which I think is the 4th or 5th holliest site in Islam . Farhansher 19:24, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Out of interest, why is the lead section so short for such an important article? - 220.101.78.35 11:14, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand that after almost 3 millenniums, people are still confused about the literal meaning of the Arabic name Allah! I am sorry to say that people who are still struggling to learn about the issue do not deserve to be here editing, let alone argue about the issue!
Al-llah is the personal name God has used to name Himself in the Arabic Revelation. The word consists of three 'laams' [or 'els' in English], two of which are visible & one of which is invisible. The presence of the invisible 'laam' is denoted by a dicritical sign of 'shaddah' [or 'doubling sign over a consonant'] placed over the two visible 'laams'. The word 'Al-llah' is different from the word 'Ilah' which means 'a god' or the word 'Al-Ilah' which means 'The God'. The word 'Allah' in English is 'lahan' or distortion of 'Al-llah' as the former lacks one 'laam' [or 'el']. Unsigned comment by 212.138.47.29 contribs
Allah is a proper noun and a name for a very specific being, and a concept. God is a much wider term refering to any thing deified. The history of Allah is different from the history of God/god, by which I mean the term "god/God" has been historically used for many other things that, from the Muslim view, are not "Allah." Allah is God, but god is not Allah. I.e. when a peson says Allah, he is talking about Allah. When a person says God/god, he could be talking about the deified representation of a monkey. When Allah is referred to, a very specific reference is made, which is what the goal of an encyclopedia is. "God" is ambiguous when meant to refer to Allah. For instance, Asad the male name means lion. To translate "Asad is here" as "Lion is here" is not just absurd, it's also misleading. TheProphetess 09:51, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
God is a Germanic word imported into Christianity some centuries after the death of Jesus. Most first century Jews were probably Greek speakers so they might have referred to "Theos", which is the word used in the original Greek of the New Testament. When Arabic-speaking Christians pray, I understand that they invoke the name "Allah." [3] -- Tony Sidaway Talk 21:37, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I just spent many hours preparing a spreadsheet and then a table of the Muslim population of the world, broken down into Sunni-Shi'a-Ibadi to the extent that I could. I got the figures from the CIA World Factbook and adherents.com. The Sunni-Shi'a breakdown is grossly inaccurate and underestimates the Shi'a. I would appreciate any help other editors could give me in making the figures more accurate and in making the table (my first ever!) look better. Zora 14:21, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Please help make the Criticism of Islam article better. Please refer to the articles talk page for our current discussion.-- JuanMuslim 04:59, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Since this page is locked - could someone with admin please change the linked text in bold to link to "Din (Arabic term)" rather than "Din (Islamic term)" as the latter is a redirect to the former.
and is described as a Dīn or Deen, meaning "way of life" and/or "religion." Etymologically, it is derived from the same root as, for example, Salām meaning "peace" (also a common salutation).
Thank you -- Dinosaurdarrell 09:50, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Muslims do not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ and his unique salvific role, and the teachings of Islam in this respect have been likened to a compound heresy made of arianism, nestorianism and docetism ("… They did not kill him (Jesus) and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them..." Qur'an, 4:157), with some pelagian and also monarchianistic (i.e., anti-trinitarian) elements.
For over a thousand years, it has been a fact that Muslims believe that Jesus Christ (J.C.) will come to judge the world on the last day. Simply one fact about what MUSLIMS believe about Jesus - it is not a claim that they believe in Jesus' divinity or any other of Jesus' attributes unique to Christianity. Muslims are not threatened or embarrassed by this belief inasmuch as it is their belief vis, that J.C. will judge the world on the last day. Both Sunnis and Shi'ites believe this about J.C.(the two largest groups within Islam who often disagree on much). I inserted this one-sentence FACT in a section which spoke of beliefs and particularly "judgment day." The phraseology was NPOV and supported by an Islamic website (generous on my part since it is like citing a source that Christians believe in Easter). Another contributor, who is Muslim, but who apparently had never heard of this belief (akin to a Christian having never heard of an important belief in Christianity) objected and removed the sentence. He also checked the link I provided and, to compound the problem, misinterpreted the clearly written statement from the Islamic website too (LOL at this point). Anyway, for everyones information, a combination of the intransigence and ignornace of the unapoligetically Islamic contributor resulted in this page being locked. Additionally, and incredibly, he called the addition of the FACT that Muslims believe Jesus Christ will judge the world on the last day, 'vandalism' (gee, adding a fact is vandalism?!), apparently not having the gift of discernment. The page has been locked since. Generally speaking, if Wikipedia heads down this path of letting an ideologue make particular articles their own plaything, this project will be worthless at best and a soapbox for revisionists of all sorts, not just Islamic. I don't know when the article will be unlocked, but this is why it happened. (preceding unsigned comment by 138.89.7.220 ( talk · contribs) 17:28, 26 September 2005)
I'm actually only 10, not 12 so that makes the fact that you're arguing with me even more pathetic. Alas, it only needs to be known that: 1. You deny the scholarship of Islam 2. Even by your own set of Islamic beliefs (which are, by your own admission, only a year old), you could have changed my contribution and eliminated "on the last day" to make it correct by your standards, but instead you simply reverted and now want to be in a protracted hermeneutical argument. 3. The page is shut down because you cried 'vandalism' which is an absolute non-sequitor in response to editing you don't quite like or take issue with. No vandalism occured by any standard (Wikipedia's or otherwise) so you're either a liar, ignorant or a crybaby. 4. I and every intelligent person ought to remain anonymous when dealing with Muslims because sadly, they've proven to be fanatical in their violence and disrespectful of anyone else's beliefs or lives. You can type your head off all night trying to persuade everyone otherwise, but I think you will have very little of the "credibility" you imagine to be so important. (preceding unsigned comment by 70.21.194.97 ( talk · contribs)
"so you're either a liar, ignorant or a crybaby" Wow. You have shown how intellectual you can get. Thanks for making that clear. Now we know you're an "intelligent person". -- a.n.o.n.y.m t 21:31, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous editor -- I am late to this discussion, for which apologies. Isn't there a verse of Qur'an that speaks about the role of Jesus/Isa on the Day of Judgment? If I recall correctly, he will be encountered, but will not act as a judge on that day. (May connect to the notion of seeing prophets on the Day of Judgment.) Can't recall the sura, can you? BrandonYusufToropov 12:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know, there is no one except God dealing w/ the judgement day. Cheers -- Svest 22:04, 27 September 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
Yes, that's one of the contradictions of Islam. This is an evidence from within Islam that Jesus Christ is God (because only God can judge the world/act as arbiter), but they don't believe this. The Hadith is very clear in Arabic - English translation not as clear. In Arabic: The Hour will not be established means judgement day to answer your question. God bless you and yours.
Cheers Farhansher 05:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm afraid that doesn't follow. From the fact that X doesn't always cause Y, it doesn't follow that X never under other circumstances causes, or aids in causing Y. For example, the sun causes atmospheric warmth. Oh, not always. I've known some wintery nights, and the sun is still out there in existence right through the worst of them. But that doesn't change the fact that under the right conditions, the sun does cause atmospheric warmth! So certain prophecies may well cause anti-semitism in some circumstances, despite the fact that as you say, Jews lived in Muslim Spain in peace. -- Christofurio 01:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
peace . Farhansher 19:43, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to have to disagree, but the Rose Garden or Gulistan of Saadi, written 1258 CE, is full of obnoxious anti-Semitic remarks. And this is a famous Sufi work! Zora 01:23, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
As Farhansher demonstrated, apologetic Muslims are very fond of citing Muslim occupied Spain ( Al-Andalus) as some sort of epitome of human and civil rights, especially in relation to Jews. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The harrowing story of the Martyrs of Cordoba is clear evidence of this. Moreover, the Muslims waged a war of aggression and imperialism against Christian Visigoth Spain and occupied it for 600 years, imposing their religion and Arabic culture and language on the indegenous population. Had they not been defeated at Tours, they would have occupied France as well. In the light of modern society, that sort of barbarism is generally considered a sign of paramount oppression. While many different peoples engaged in imperialism in the past, the vast majority of societies, religions and cultures (with the notable exception of Muslims) have renounced their imperialist past. It is a well know fact that the Muslims forced Jews and Christians to wear distinguishing marks on their cloathing as a sign of their religion. It is a documented historical fact that the Yellow badge, which the Nazis forced the Jews to wear, has its origins in the practices of Muslims. The Islamic Empire (including the territory of Al-Andalus) variously forced Jews to wear yellow belts, yellow badges, yellow turbans, bells, wooden carvings of a " golden calf" hung around the neck as a pendant, pieces of lead with the word " dhimmi" hung around the neck as a pendant, and at one point the Caliphate forced Jewish women to wear one red shoe and one black shoe! This culminated in 1941 with Adolf Hitler forcing Jews to wear the infamous yellow badge with the word "Jude" written on it. To the modern thinking mind, the Muslim occupation of Spain sounds more like a Nazi invasion and occupation than like the supposed "golden age of tolerance" described by Muslim apologists. Muslim treatment of Jews in Spain may have been better, in some ways, than Christian treatment, but this does not excuse it from rightly being identified as examples of appalling anti-Semitism and oppression. -- Zeno of Elea 04:00, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Islamic conquest of Europe was first stopped at the Battle of Tours (732 A.D.) and Muslims never progressed beyond Spain, from which they were also forced out later.
Would someone agree to add an image of the word "al-Islam" in Arabic script to this article? I think that would be a good addition. The Sanity Inspector
The Sanity Inspector 11:46, 7 October 2005 (EST)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
I don't think that the "fastest growing" claim could be sustained. If you're just talking about rates, and not size, then perhaps Pastafarianism is the fastest growing, since it's come out of nowhere in the past few weeks. It's hard to tell, since in my experience doing fieldwork on religious affiliation in Tonga, believers have an enormous capacity for deluding themselves and their superiors. They'll report as "members" people who might have attended one meeting out of curiousity, as well as refusing to subtract for members who have left. Believers tend to take being "the fastest growing" as proof that they are the divinely ordained TRUE religion, and they'll torture statistics to prove it. Let's report (later, not in the first para) on census estimates, and leave out the superlatives. Zora 06:59, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
What the hell is this link doing there? Apart from being racist and offensive ("A Muslim takeover of Western Europe" no less) it's conclusions arrived at are frankly bizarre. Note how it states "Although the Muslim birth rate today is the world’s second highest (after sub-Saharan Africa)" - What the hell does that mean? What about the Muslims in Sub Saharan Africa, which pool do they belong to? His reference is the UN, but nowhere on the UN's United Nations Population Information Network site can i find any reference to the "Muslim World", nor here at the United Nations Publications Catalogue which leads me to suspect this was a calculation he made by heimself, in which case I'd like to know where the hell it came from, what countries did he include, and which did he ditch?-- Irishpunktom\ talk 20:28, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
According to this article, "The majority of of Albanians are secular / atheist in orientation and most of the remaining Muslim population adheres to a hedonistic sect of Islam based on a Sufi order", yet according to Islam in Albania, "Bektashis were estimated to represent approximately 20% of the country's Muslim population before 1967".. what gives?
An editor named Jbull "corrected" the Islam article to read that the Muslims conquered Syria and Jerusalem in the eleventh century. Um, dude, you're only four centuries off. Both subdued by Umar, the second caliph, in 636 and 637 CE. Sheesh! Zora 18:49, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone, sometime, added some material to the opening para of the Qur'an section. Some of it was merely repeated facts given further along in the section (leading me to believe it might have been a newbie editor, editing before he'd finished reading the article) and one assertion, that currently 9 million Muslims have memorized the whole Qur'an in Arabic, strikes me as probably false and certainly unprovable. So I trimmed away. Nothing was added. Zora 09:46, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
The new material is just shoveled into the opening para as a breathless torrent of "stuff that makes me feel good as a Muslim". It does not WORK with the rest of the section. As a non-Muslim editor who is trying to remain NPOV, I protest. I am going to rewrite and put the hafiz material into its own section LATER in the article. Zora 21:04, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Can we cut the spin and include some straight facts about Islam and other religions ie the de facto policies of Islamic countries towards other religions. I know it sounds so nice and PC to generalize that Islamic countries are tolerant of other faiths but certainly there is ample evidence on the news wires nearly every day that this may not be an entirely correct assessment. [1] User:Kyodai 05:27, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
There's been so much churn in this article since it was unlocked that things just slip right past me. I check the latest edits and the latest diffs, and don't read the whole article -- which means that I miss all sorts of sub-standard prose.
We fought through the #$%#$@% Islam and other religions section sentence by sentence. I thought it was OK by all; then a few editors started adding stuff at the end -- layered strata of Islam is bloodthirsty, no it isn't, yes it is. No mention on the talk page. I don't know quite when all that was added, and it would be a major project to find out. So I just removed it.
Aside from wishing that the Islamists wouldn't blow up things for the sake of the people and things they blow up, I wish they wouldn't blow up things so that this article can get a rest! After every incident, we get another wave of vandalism and bigotry. Yeah, sure, that'll show those Islamists! I'll go vandalize the Islam article on Wikipedia! Zora 05:32, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I believe that those kind of discussions here have never changed, neither in nature nor in any other aspect. There's no respect, no gentle approach to discuss matters in this area. It seems as if it is a ground 0.
Yes, too many changes of course as in any other article in WP. However, big and nonesense changes are well spotted by all editors, most of the time are agreed or disagreed between the same editors. The problem here, as I hear, are not the changes but the definitions and the expressions used to define those who make those changes. I hear that there are Islamists messing around and blowing up stuff indeed! So do you mean anyone doing so is an extremist, maybe a terrorist?
I expect, as a reader, to find out about principles of Islam in this article. This article is about Islam and not Muslims. I hope that makes a big difference. There's an article about Muslims.
Another issue is that most of the editors, including myself, have only very little knowledge compared with academics who have or had spent their entire life to search the subject! We are nothing but keep teaching eachother here, as in school, w/ uncivilized manners most of the time, how to deal w/ the situation. I am wondering how come we should include in the article things like Islam is evil or Islam is the best!!! The article should be academic and never political or ideological. Why? Because, for political and ideological issues we have dedicated articles. Easy... In How stuff works, we don't say cars are polluting the environment, we just simply mention how cars work! For pollution issues, you'd surely find them in How cars pollute the invironment article. Cheers -- Svest 02:09, September 10, 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
ZoE, I hope you do understand well that if you agree about keeping "though deficient by modern standards" sentence than you should agree that there are thousands of articles in WP that the sentance must be inserted somewhere in every article! Say The persians formed a developped society ruled by law at the times of Hamurabi, though deficient by modern standards in terms of democracy and human rights. Say Greeks were the first to introduce the concept of democracy, though deficient by modern standards in terms of democracy and human rights... -- Svest 02:31, September 10, 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
KEY here is simply this: When the true offical, religious leaders in the Arab/Islamic world start standing up and condeming what is being done in the name of Islam then I will start to change my views on how horrible a religion, Islam is. As long as these true religious leaders are teaching and following the whole counsel of the Qu'ran which DOES say death the the infidel (which is all the world outside of Islam), then this religion is a hateful one and a threat to the whole civilized world. 69.242.48.222AJD, Oct 6, 2005
We have a new editor, a pious Muslim named Courageous who has written a new version of the Muslim article. It expounds his views of who the real Muslims are, and drops the few lines of material relating to the use of the term "Musselman" for Jewish holocaust victims. He doesn't think "Zionists" should be mentioned in an Islamic article. He seems to be prepared to play revert war to get his version in place. I left a message on his talk page, to which he replied that I was an infidel, and he was commanded by the Qur'an not to listen to me.
I'd appreciate if some of the sane Muslim editors could try talking to him -- and monitoring the Muslim article for any necessary reverts. Zora 21:24, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
-- The Brain 11:45, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
This section was blanked... I think I re-added everything.... I didn't see a reason... was it just unfixed vandalism or what? gren グレン 08:51, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
For some unknown reasons , the picture of dome of rock is on the top . I think at that position , the best option will be to use a picture of Kaaba , rather than dome of rock , which I think is the 4th or 5th holliest site in Islam . Farhansher 19:24, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Out of interest, why is the lead section so short for such an important article? - 220.101.78.35 11:14, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand that after almost 3 millenniums, people are still confused about the literal meaning of the Arabic name Allah! I am sorry to say that people who are still struggling to learn about the issue do not deserve to be here editing, let alone argue about the issue!
Al-llah is the personal name God has used to name Himself in the Arabic Revelation. The word consists of three 'laams' [or 'els' in English], two of which are visible & one of which is invisible. The presence of the invisible 'laam' is denoted by a dicritical sign of 'shaddah' [or 'doubling sign over a consonant'] placed over the two visible 'laams'. The word 'Al-llah' is different from the word 'Ilah' which means 'a god' or the word 'Al-Ilah' which means 'The God'. The word 'Allah' in English is 'lahan' or distortion of 'Al-llah' as the former lacks one 'laam' [or 'el']. Unsigned comment by 212.138.47.29 contribs
Allah is a proper noun and a name for a very specific being, and a concept. God is a much wider term refering to any thing deified. The history of Allah is different from the history of God/god, by which I mean the term "god/God" has been historically used for many other things that, from the Muslim view, are not "Allah." Allah is God, but god is not Allah. I.e. when a peson says Allah, he is talking about Allah. When a person says God/god, he could be talking about the deified representation of a monkey. When Allah is referred to, a very specific reference is made, which is what the goal of an encyclopedia is. "God" is ambiguous when meant to refer to Allah. For instance, Asad the male name means lion. To translate "Asad is here" as "Lion is here" is not just absurd, it's also misleading. TheProphetess 09:51, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
God is a Germanic word imported into Christianity some centuries after the death of Jesus. Most first century Jews were probably Greek speakers so they might have referred to "Theos", which is the word used in the original Greek of the New Testament. When Arabic-speaking Christians pray, I understand that they invoke the name "Allah." [3] -- Tony Sidaway Talk 21:37, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I just spent many hours preparing a spreadsheet and then a table of the Muslim population of the world, broken down into Sunni-Shi'a-Ibadi to the extent that I could. I got the figures from the CIA World Factbook and adherents.com. The Sunni-Shi'a breakdown is grossly inaccurate and underestimates the Shi'a. I would appreciate any help other editors could give me in making the figures more accurate and in making the table (my first ever!) look better. Zora 14:21, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Please help make the Criticism of Islam article better. Please refer to the articles talk page for our current discussion.-- JuanMuslim 04:59, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Since this page is locked - could someone with admin please change the linked text in bold to link to "Din (Arabic term)" rather than "Din (Islamic term)" as the latter is a redirect to the former.
and is described as a Dīn or Deen, meaning "way of life" and/or "religion." Etymologically, it is derived from the same root as, for example, Salām meaning "peace" (also a common salutation).
Thank you -- Dinosaurdarrell 09:50, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Muslims do not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ and his unique salvific role, and the teachings of Islam in this respect have been likened to a compound heresy made of arianism, nestorianism and docetism ("… They did not kill him (Jesus) and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them..." Qur'an, 4:157), with some pelagian and also monarchianistic (i.e., anti-trinitarian) elements.
For over a thousand years, it has been a fact that Muslims believe that Jesus Christ (J.C.) will come to judge the world on the last day. Simply one fact about what MUSLIMS believe about Jesus - it is not a claim that they believe in Jesus' divinity or any other of Jesus' attributes unique to Christianity. Muslims are not threatened or embarrassed by this belief inasmuch as it is their belief vis, that J.C. will judge the world on the last day. Both Sunnis and Shi'ites believe this about J.C.(the two largest groups within Islam who often disagree on much). I inserted this one-sentence FACT in a section which spoke of beliefs and particularly "judgment day." The phraseology was NPOV and supported by an Islamic website (generous on my part since it is like citing a source that Christians believe in Easter). Another contributor, who is Muslim, but who apparently had never heard of this belief (akin to a Christian having never heard of an important belief in Christianity) objected and removed the sentence. He also checked the link I provided and, to compound the problem, misinterpreted the clearly written statement from the Islamic website too (LOL at this point). Anyway, for everyones information, a combination of the intransigence and ignornace of the unapoligetically Islamic contributor resulted in this page being locked. Additionally, and incredibly, he called the addition of the FACT that Muslims believe Jesus Christ will judge the world on the last day, 'vandalism' (gee, adding a fact is vandalism?!), apparently not having the gift of discernment. The page has been locked since. Generally speaking, if Wikipedia heads down this path of letting an ideologue make particular articles their own plaything, this project will be worthless at best and a soapbox for revisionists of all sorts, not just Islamic. I don't know when the article will be unlocked, but this is why it happened. (preceding unsigned comment by 138.89.7.220 ( talk · contribs) 17:28, 26 September 2005)
I'm actually only 10, not 12 so that makes the fact that you're arguing with me even more pathetic. Alas, it only needs to be known that: 1. You deny the scholarship of Islam 2. Even by your own set of Islamic beliefs (which are, by your own admission, only a year old), you could have changed my contribution and eliminated "on the last day" to make it correct by your standards, but instead you simply reverted and now want to be in a protracted hermeneutical argument. 3. The page is shut down because you cried 'vandalism' which is an absolute non-sequitor in response to editing you don't quite like or take issue with. No vandalism occured by any standard (Wikipedia's or otherwise) so you're either a liar, ignorant or a crybaby. 4. I and every intelligent person ought to remain anonymous when dealing with Muslims because sadly, they've proven to be fanatical in their violence and disrespectful of anyone else's beliefs or lives. You can type your head off all night trying to persuade everyone otherwise, but I think you will have very little of the "credibility" you imagine to be so important. (preceding unsigned comment by 70.21.194.97 ( talk · contribs)
"so you're either a liar, ignorant or a crybaby" Wow. You have shown how intellectual you can get. Thanks for making that clear. Now we know you're an "intelligent person". -- a.n.o.n.y.m t 21:31, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous editor -- I am late to this discussion, for which apologies. Isn't there a verse of Qur'an that speaks about the role of Jesus/Isa on the Day of Judgment? If I recall correctly, he will be encountered, but will not act as a judge on that day. (May connect to the notion of seeing prophets on the Day of Judgment.) Can't recall the sura, can you? BrandonYusufToropov 12:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know, there is no one except God dealing w/ the judgement day. Cheers -- Svest 22:04, 27 September 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
Yes, that's one of the contradictions of Islam. This is an evidence from within Islam that Jesus Christ is God (because only God can judge the world/act as arbiter), but they don't believe this. The Hadith is very clear in Arabic - English translation not as clear. In Arabic: The Hour will not be established means judgement day to answer your question. God bless you and yours.
Cheers Farhansher 05:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm afraid that doesn't follow. From the fact that X doesn't always cause Y, it doesn't follow that X never under other circumstances causes, or aids in causing Y. For example, the sun causes atmospheric warmth. Oh, not always. I've known some wintery nights, and the sun is still out there in existence right through the worst of them. But that doesn't change the fact that under the right conditions, the sun does cause atmospheric warmth! So certain prophecies may well cause anti-semitism in some circumstances, despite the fact that as you say, Jews lived in Muslim Spain in peace. -- Christofurio 01:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
peace . Farhansher 19:43, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to have to disagree, but the Rose Garden or Gulistan of Saadi, written 1258 CE, is full of obnoxious anti-Semitic remarks. And this is a famous Sufi work! Zora 01:23, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
As Farhansher demonstrated, apologetic Muslims are very fond of citing Muslim occupied Spain ( Al-Andalus) as some sort of epitome of human and civil rights, especially in relation to Jews. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The harrowing story of the Martyrs of Cordoba is clear evidence of this. Moreover, the Muslims waged a war of aggression and imperialism against Christian Visigoth Spain and occupied it for 600 years, imposing their religion and Arabic culture and language on the indegenous population. Had they not been defeated at Tours, they would have occupied France as well. In the light of modern society, that sort of barbarism is generally considered a sign of paramount oppression. While many different peoples engaged in imperialism in the past, the vast majority of societies, religions and cultures (with the notable exception of Muslims) have renounced their imperialist past. It is a well know fact that the Muslims forced Jews and Christians to wear distinguishing marks on their cloathing as a sign of their religion. It is a documented historical fact that the Yellow badge, which the Nazis forced the Jews to wear, has its origins in the practices of Muslims. The Islamic Empire (including the territory of Al-Andalus) variously forced Jews to wear yellow belts, yellow badges, yellow turbans, bells, wooden carvings of a " golden calf" hung around the neck as a pendant, pieces of lead with the word " dhimmi" hung around the neck as a pendant, and at one point the Caliphate forced Jewish women to wear one red shoe and one black shoe! This culminated in 1941 with Adolf Hitler forcing Jews to wear the infamous yellow badge with the word "Jude" written on it. To the modern thinking mind, the Muslim occupation of Spain sounds more like a Nazi invasion and occupation than like the supposed "golden age of tolerance" described by Muslim apologists. Muslim treatment of Jews in Spain may have been better, in some ways, than Christian treatment, but this does not excuse it from rightly being identified as examples of appalling anti-Semitism and oppression. -- Zeno of Elea 04:00, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Islamic conquest of Europe was first stopped at the Battle of Tours (732 A.D.) and Muslims never progressed beyond Spain, from which they were also forced out later.
Would someone agree to add an image of the word "al-Islam" in Arabic script to this article? I think that would be a good addition. The Sanity Inspector
The Sanity Inspector 11:46, 7 October 2005 (EST)